I have just done something...I was talking the one person I truly thought I loved. I have known him for what seems like forever, and a while back, told him that I loved him, at first, he did not say anything back, and then he finaly told me after a few months of this. Anyway, he has a few problems, with cutting himself, or smashing his wrists against walls until he can hardly move them. About 5 months ago, he made a promise to me that he would not cut himself (at this time, I did not know about the wrist thing), but today, as I was in an instant message with him (he lives a long way away), we got on the subject of my being unhappy. He commented on how I don't have scars from cutting, and all these things like that.So, to let him know finaly, I told him that I have been scratching myself until I bleed, and pulling out chunks of my hair. He was upset, because back a few weeks ago, when I was having suicidal thoughts again, and mutilation tendencies, he made me promise I would not cut myself...but technicaly, I did not break my promise, because I did not cut. He then proceeded to tell me that he had infact been smashing his wrists(I already knew this last week), and he had been cutting again. I was really upset with him, because his cutting almost killed him before. He started cutting because of a girl he knew..."the only girl" he ever loved...and she commited suicide...I realized when he told me that she was the only girl he loved, that he did not say something like "except you". I asked him "what about me? I thought you loved me?" He then told me that I could add that to the fire of hate for him, and that he lied about loving me because he thought it was best that I heard that. I cannot believe he lied about this! I was actualy in love with him, and I thought he loved me too..but this was all, just not true. So I told him we should stop talking for maybe forever, or maybe a while, it was up to him. We both decided, after a long discussion about who was to decide on this, that we should stop all correspondence for a few weeks. I think I need this time, as the summer just begins, to try and either be happy alone, or find someone who will not lie, and actualy love me. So now, I go into a new part of my life, a part without really being connected to anyone, and I haven't been like this in a really long time, because no matter who I was "seeing", there was always him. So now, I feel lonely, but sort of better, because now, I am me, and only me, and now maybe I can find someone who really cares...maybe. Oh, and if anyone reading this is interested, just e-mail...

that isn't love. that's your dna deviously doing it's best to make more dna. that feeling that every cell in your body is yearning for him is just that. now run along and get your tubes tied.

Is getting your tubes tied really supposed to reduce hormonal urges? *looks for a doctor* All this aside, it sounds like you're not having a fun time, Star. But on the othe rhand, ti was just as well these things got said. ow you know where everything stands. I'm sick. I want to go back to bed and cuddle with my cats. Meow.

His name is Vince. I call him My Pretty Boy. He's my new crush. I decided that a crush would be great right about now. Someone I can stare at from across the room and make up a whole personality for. Someone I can daydream about, who doesn't have to be totally Real. Someone just for me. My Pretty Boy.

it doesn't. it just makes sure she won't have a child that will likely grow up scratching itself until it bleeds, pulling out handfuls of it's hair and falling in love with equally fucked up people on the internet. throw away the marylin manson and get your tubes tied. i'm totally fucking serious.

its hair.

Jesus, there have been some messed up people around here lately. Usually the people I crush on are just so totally inaccessible, so awe-inspiring, so much bigger and better than I am in all ways of thinking that all I feel when I'm around them is a sense of wonder and privilege. *All* I feel. But there's this guy that I work with...and I really like him. Truly *like* him. Meaning, I'm just so very very fond of him. He's smart and refined and sweet and very witty in a Wilde sort of way. He speaks beautifully, and he's so gracious and gentlemanlike. I heard him on the phone with his girlfriend...he calls her Sugar. It sounds so nice when he says it. And though there is absolutely no chance that anything would ever develop between us, I don't care. Being around him is joy enough. This is my kind of crush.

Yeah, me too. I work with this really nice, cute, funny guy. And he _totally_ doesn't get it. Argh. How frustrating. He calls me "poor thing" but not in a mean way, just in a friendly, nickname kind of way. I want to darn his socks forever. Really. I do. He's just...not perfect, no one is, but so wonderful. And I am getting my tubes tied first chance I get. No overpopulation contribution from Isolde. Nope.

The Perfect Man? The perfect man is gentle, Never cruel or mean; He has a beautiful smile- And keeps his face so clean. The perfect man likes children, And will raise them by your side; He will be a good father- As well as a good husband to his bride. The perfect man loves cooking, Cleaning and vacuuming too; He'll do anything in his power- To convey his feelings of love on you. The perfect man is sweet, Writing poetry from your name; He's a best friend to your mother- And kisses away your pain. He never has made you cry Or hurt you In any way; Oh, fuck this stupid poem- The perfect man is gay.

The perfect man does nto exist. Perfection is boring.

i want to thank dave for speaking my mind.

The perfect man is a gingerbread man. When he annoys you, you can bite his head off.

the perfect woman has a mouth but no vocal chords.

star- i tried to email you, but the link wouldn't work. i've only known one other person that has "cut." she's a member of some secret society of cutters. i'm not sure, but i think she feeds off of it. i kind of started her on it, but it was inevitable... i think. if you want to be sick and talk about it. email me.

put your helmet on nate

wait, i am mistaken. the perfect woman has vocal cords but the only thing she ever says is "Hmmm" Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm it don' matter just don't bite it.

I tried that on the grump and got the giggles and he said that it didnt feel any different

The husband is behind the wheel. His wife looks over at him. "Honey, I know we've been married for 15 years, but I want a divorce." The husband says nothing but slowly increases speed to 60 mph. "I don't want you to try to talk me out of it, because I've been having an affair with your best friend, and he's a better lover than you." Again the husband stays quiet and just speeds up as his anger increases. "I want the house also." Again the husband speeds up, and now is doing 75 mph. "I want the kids too." The husband just keeps driving faster and faster, now he's up to 85 mph. "And I want the car, the checking account, and all the credit cards." The husband slowly starts to veer toward a bridge overpass piling as the speedometer reaches 90 mph. "You're taking this incredibly calmly," the wife says. "Isn't there anything that you want?" "No, I have everything I need." "What's that?" "The airbag."

*laugh* Er...should I say *hmmmmmmmmmmmmm* ?

Nate...You're just begging for a biting! By the way, I'm thinking your perfect woman bears a striking resemblance to a blow-up doll. Maybe you can get a programmable voice-activated one that will "hmmmmm" on command. When you find the right piece of inflatable plastic, I hope you'll both be very happy together. (Damn, I love matchmaking!)

Star...You need help, and probably a blood transfusion. Don't worry about losing the man, you need to worry about losing your mind. That cutting thing is just...bloody mad. But then, what would I know? I eat Vegemite on a regular basis and if that's not being on the cutting edge...sheeesh!

I love vegemite. Its way way better than marmite. Violent Crumbles are not as good as Crunchies however.

Okay, first of all, I did appreciate those of you who actualy understand me, and those of you who want to help. It has been getting worse around here, and it isn't because of the guy either, but because of the TDOT. They want to build a road right through my living room, and this of course being the place I call home. All of this junk they are trying to do, is giving me ulcers, and I believe it is slowly killing my dad, well, family all together. Secondly, I would like for you, Dave, to know that I did not meet him over the net, but he lived here last year, and has since gone to Colorado for college, so unless you know the full details, I think maybe you should not jump to conclusions, and make rude comments. Lastly, I don't know if anyone knows it, but I have a disease...this causes me to do what I do to myself...I have tried to stop...and been successful for a few days now....And thanx for the mail Moonit..talk to ya soon...

are you saying i'm rude?

are you really concerned? inflatable women can't scrub toilets. you know, i'm really not a chauvie. i just play one on sorabji.com.

No, dave, I think she was saying something like you dont deal with life's serious issues with the proper reverence for the soul-wrenching confessions of strangers. As though confessing were tough. As though we weren't all encouraged to yack yack yack yack all the time about our thoughts and feelings and influences and how long we were breast fed and define ourselves by the contours of our confessions and essentialize away our personal responsibility and define others by their ability/inability to become the high priest herr doktor freud of our own scarred souls. Go, Dave, go.

a disease? what disease makes us cut ourselves? I would like to know more about this disease. It sounds like more of a behavior problem than a disease.

People try to liken it to a chemical addiction. So, pity me because I can't stop my hand from picking up the cutting instrument and slicing my flesh. Like, I can't help it, so don't ask me to claim responsibility. Another theory is that it's caused by a lack of communication skills...you can't vocalize your unhappiness so you turn to cutting to release your pain. Or something like that. I prefer this explanation. It places the locus of control right smack on the angst-ridden teen. It is so very unfortunate that such behavior has become glamorized. Note the references to a "secret society"...."I kind of got her started"....like it's the latest trend. How lame. Really, if you can't even come up with ways to hurt yourself on your own... (I really want to say,"....you are one sorry-assed motherfucker," but that doesn't seem appropriate. Oh, well.)

Oh, well, indeed. And Nate--they're actually coming out with a line of inflatable women that scrub out toilets--and leave the seat up.

I find it interesting, too, that I lack compassion for people in this situation. I think if I knew that individuals were doing this in their bathrooms late at night and taking every precaution to ensure that no one found out, I would feel more kindly. But when I hear and read about girls (and it's usually girls, usually teenaged girls, but people of all ages can do this) getting together and talking about it -- not in the interest of helping each other, but to share techniques, almost -- I close off. Read "A Bright Red Scream"...it's about cutting. There are many cases cited in the book involving non-cutting girls meeting "wild and thrilling bad girls" with bad families, admiring the "bad" girl, finding out that the "bad" girl cuts herself, and then taking up cutting. As a way of being more like this girl. I don't know...that's just so "Heathers." And then for people to say "it's a disease that makes me do this to myself," that's furthering the disempowerment. If you do this to yourself to gain control, the "disease" has control, not you. Gain control over the "disease" and refuse to do this to yourself. Find a good therapist. Talk to someone who is trained to deal with people like you. Write out your feelings in a journal. Countless studies have found that keeping a journal, even if you are mentally healthy, improves your affective state and makes you feel better.

Excuse me, I should have said "people who do what you do" in the last paragraph, not "people like you."

that degree is paying off dear.......

Yeah, really. Well put, Rhi.

my left wrist is scarred. i used to sew things into my arm and stich up little gashes i'd make with a razor. that was in highschool. mostly i was bored. i turned out fine. just decide to be yourself, and that as yourself you are a person who does good things. do positive things for people every chance you have. it all comes back. either that or kill yourself. in the long run no one here will care.

i once carved my girlfriends name in my arm with a buck knife when she dumped me. teen drama.......sheeeesh!

What size objects are we talking here? Refrigerators? Bird seed? Bowls? Table forks? Did you make little inkstains? Eventually everyone grows out of the slicing and dicing stage. Even Julia Child.

We had the "I love pain" society. Kind of like a Figh Club thing, we would proudly flash each other our sliced up arms. I think that was freshman or sophomore year in high school.

more like embroidery. pentagrams. etc.

Oh, yeah, I remember my best friend used to do that. Little patterns on the soles of her feet.

i was in the "i love my traumatic injury" society. we would proudly flash our severed spinal chords and sliced off arms. i think it was when i was 19. remember - the mutilated are always welcome on molokai where you can nod on coconut rum and p-funk all the live-long day. and, yes, grass skirts and sarongs are mandatory for females and optional for males. patrick gets a skirt made out of bananas, except for a gap in the front. i gotta go pick a lock for someone.

cool! actually i was hoping i could get a customized loin cloth with rhinestoned "waffles" on the ass.

I have to wear a grass skirt _and_ a sarong? How sad. Hey, I never said I was a smart high schooler. I just said Iwas in high school. Bleh.

Ummmm, we were in the Tantalizing Stories Society. This meant that we wrote funny stories and drew cartoons and showed them to each other at lunch time. One thing we did: we took Dali paintings, put them in an order, and then gave them to everyone to write a story about the pictures. Lorraine's and my story was about a guy named Cedric Santiago, whose mother was "a right whore" and who engaged in undisclosed debaucheries, eventually ending up in hell. It was funny. Oh, yeah, and Tuesdays and Thursdays were Bisexual Days. Droopy, I imagine that many people will see us having a good time and will try to muscle in on our utopia...hence, we need protection. That's what I'm here for. I want to be in charge of manufacturing and maintaining the poison darts.

Okay, no one said I was in a fucking "flash your scar" type thing...I only tell you people this stuff, because I don't know you...and the only person I do know that I told/tell, was the bastard that decided to lie about loving me. I don't sit around on weekends and try to think up cool ways to impress all my "cutting buddies", and this is because none of my friends know about it, and I belong to the group of people who have squeeky clean images, and wear pink. I do this, because it is a kind of control, it is the only thing I can control. And all you fucking insensitive people, don't really care...and I know this, but these message boards are the one place I can tell people what I want, and not be repremanded (or so I thought) And it is a disease, and I have sought therapy, and therapy didn't help. I have been on countless medications, while the whole time, my mother tells everyone that I am sad "because of some boy", (she thinks it is a good cover)Anyway, the cutting goes along with borderline personality dissorder...if you go to northern light, or any other search engine, and type in "self mutilation", they will give you a lot of good sites. I know this because I have been trying to help myself, since nothing else has helped. And I agree, it is a shame that things like this have become a fad, and this has in turn, caused a turning of heads to people with my condition, because parents and society think that it is just a phase, or something associated with a music group.

oh shit, i almost forgot... fuck you, you ass.

star you need to listen to Rhiannon ....and nate you have indicated you are a teenager we were all teenagers....everything you may feel we have collectivly gone through at one point. Your feelings and emotions are not exclusive.....i know it feels like no one understands but you need to pull your head outta your ass to listen. i am sure you are "hearing" the sames things in some of our comments that you have heard from your mother, doctors and so on. There is a reason we may chirp the same tune.

spinal cord, not chord. i'd been playing guitar. isolde - you don't have to wear them simultaneously. you got the the job, rhiannon: warrior princess. star - good luck, kid. your problems are inconceivable to me; i've had a surfeit of mutilation.

Remember, it's about control. *You* have to be in control. A therapist can't change you for you. You have to change. You have to do it yourself. And there is the belief among mental health professionals that Borderline Personality Disorder may not even be a legitimate mental disorder (kind of like hysteria) so please don't use the BPD diagnosis as a way to give up the control you really do have over your body and your actions. Please don't do that anyway, regardless of what other problems you may have. You always have choices. I imagine you feel a lot of pressure....pressure to be perfect. Remember that there ways to deal with these pressures -- ways to relieve the pressure and ways to remove the sources -- that don't involve hurting yourself. I'm sure you know -- the world is a hard enough place as it is...you really need yourself on your own side. And Nate is right: when you do good things, you feel good. When I was depressed and anxious in high school, I volunteered at an animal hospital/kennel. I played with the animals that were recovering from operations, etc. It was a really great environment (animals love you no matter what you look or feel like) and everyone was so friendly. And you knew that even if an animal died despite their treatment, you had made their last moments happy. Doing that was like the only good thing in my life at that time, and it helped me a lot. It gave me something to look forward to every day after school. And I was doing something active to help myself. That's what needs to be done. It's like what is said about sin: if you think about *not sinning* all the time, of course you sin. Because it's always on your mind, and so it's always close to hand. But if you think about *doing good* all the time, and focus on finding good things, you find that you don't even sin anymore because you're so busy doing good. Likewise, if you think about not cutting yourself, it's easier to fall back into that behavior, because it's always on your mind. But if you think about doing other things, it's easier to avoid the cutting because you're otherwise occupied. It's not quite as simple, as I'm sure you know, but you get the idea.

fyi star.....Rhiannon has a psyche degree she inherently knows more about the subject.....shut up and listen for a minute

if you broadcast your problem and then listen, you are seeking advice. if you broadcast your problem and then insist no one can understand you, you're just trying to weasel attention out of your superiors.

why not use this trait for something positive----- apply to butcher school

Nate, I just love finding a good chauvie to play with, even if you're just a pretend one. Moonit, you need to try really sucking the marrow out of a Crunchie, then I think you'd prefer them to a Violet Crumble. Dave, I want to wear leaves...or grow my hair long and do a Venus De Milo thing. Is that a prob? Star, (sigh) every time you get the urge to cut, go donate blood instead so it's not wasted. Rhi, Amen to all that. Cat, don't forget to make a manicure apointment

Czarina, I almost forgot to mention that I like your style.

what kind of leaves?

star, you're too damn melodramatic. knock it off. it's stupid.

I was thinking fig leaves, but I would probably have to import them and that would cost too many Pokemon shiny things. Incidentally, at one stage the Vatican contracted a sculptor to go around adding fig leaves to cover offending male organs on statues. Anyway, not poison ivy leaves.

you can grow figs in Orstralia.

My accent gave me away, right?

that and your reference to criminal ancestry. and your. . .nevermind.

And your IP address...

Why can't mild self mutilation be a chemical addiction? Endorphins, ya know... Besides, many societies value intentional body damage. Why be so judgemental? If guys beat the shit out of each other in a boxing ring, it's normal. If a girl wants to take little hunks out of her flesh, it's not. Why?

It is not natural.

Why not?

yeah, why not? i've seen dogs and cats chew their butts raw. it's a flea allergy. maybe cutters have a flea allergy.

Chew my ass, dave.

Some cultures also promote female castration (Over to you Nate)

Cutting yourself - not much of a challenge there. You relly want to deal with your angst and lack of atention? Go cut a cop. Your mantra should be "Fuck'em if they can't take a joke". Everytime some fucker does something that makes you feel misunderstood, just repeat the above aloud until you get the point. And stop wearing pink. Pink. If a bunch of Pinks wanna get off by cutting themselves, fine by me. Saves me the trouble.

Oh, good. I hate the overdressed feeling of sarong and grass skirt. Glad to get that straightened out. My cat is asleep on my lap while I'm typing. He loves to cut people, especially those who rub his stomach. And he smells like pine trees. I have pink fuzzy slippers...

I look cute in pink. Yellow makes me look ill. this is the sum total of my contribution to this conversation. Oh, except to point out that Dave uses periods now. how cute.

You know, I'm not the world's biggest fucking fan of the mentally ill, but I see absolutely no reason why Rhiannon's B.A. in psych. somehow qualifies her to make more legitimate or accurate pronouncements than Star's experience of her own world enables. Fuck that, that's one of the problems with the western fucking diagnostic model. Now, we'll get into what's wrong with the disease model at a later date.

chew ass. i support female castration. women just shouldn't have nuts. hmm. i wonder if that's why women carry purses... no sack of their own.

There's an article on this in the latest issue of Discover. Talk about synchronicity.

ouch

My B.A. degree qualifies me for very little. My acquaintance with the research done on self-mutilation affords me slightly more authority. My personal experience with such behavior gives me even more slightly more authority. I wrote that because no one else seemed to be taking her very seriously -- and clearly she's troubled -- and as an exercise to get over my initial reaction of contempt.

Pooky bear elfin princess Rhiannon: I was not chewing you out, I was chewing out Patrick for pointing to you as the Voice of Authority. Dig?

i think she's a needy wag. vampires of society. FUCKINNG AAA. i'm going to go downtown and run over a freak. stinking incense goths. FCUCKING AAAA. i'm going to go make them eat their own abortions. FUCKING A. i'm going to go show them who they worship. i'm going to go hand them to the devil. i'm going to go run me over a freak. FUCKING A.

As a mom,I hate when my kids bring someone with this disorder home with them,wads of necrotic tissue,clumps of hair and bloodstains all over the furniture,such an untidy mess.As a healthcare proffesional,I do recognize that this is the "latest" I can't cope,disease of the week.This troubled soul indeed needs to continue her therapy. Or perhaps to take a look at these behaviors thru the eyes of the general public.Would any of us like to see a person with this type of personality disorder marry into our family,thus dragging our loved one down with them?Hell no.So young cutter,get real,continue with your therapy.Life IS hard,no one is going to give it to you on a silver platter,BUT,there are really good things out there,YOU just have to go out there and find them.

My husband works with a man whose brother in law has fuck tatooed on his lower lip,he says it,s hard to look at him on family occasions and keep a straight face.I,m no shrink,but sometimes negative attention is better than being ignored to some of these kids.

I didn,t say that to be mean Star,it sounds like maybe your mom is in denial,what kind of relationship do you have with your parents?

A friend who's a tattoo artist refuses to tatoo anything foul on someone--even to the point of refusing to tattoo "evil" on someone...She counseled him to get "live," instead, and he called her three years later thanking her. Anyway.

i'm all about cute.

I dig, Margret...my fuzzy bumblebee.

Perhaps Rhiannon redeemed herself in a later post, but when she was babbling about all she thinks she knows she was making an ass out of herself. "Gain control over the 'disease' and refuse to do this to yourself." And so she writes on, "BPD is not a legitimate disorder." And then she goes on to give advice. How very sweet. I don't have BPD. I used to cut myself. I went to a psychologist who had the same closed-minded ideas as Rhiannon projected through her post. Oh, he had a degree too. If she has a degree in psychology, which she most certainly should have if she can talk with such authority on the subject, though probably some second rate university, she should do us a favor and go for a masters in something that will not place her working with real people with real problems. people like her only make things worse. her mentality that it is up to the person to make the decision on whether or not they will continue to cut themselves, is disheartening to me as a future professional. BPD is not legitimate, well for not being legitimate there seem to be a lot of people who harm themselves, but then again it's not a legitimate disorder. oh well... write that one off, no need to worry about it anymore. there is therapy created by Marcia Lenehan (sp?) that deals with people with BPD and it is amazing in how it works. There are tons and tons of successes. it doesn't make the illegitimate BPD go away, it helps people to deal with it in their daily lives.

I don,t think much of this Bell_jar,do not fuck with Rhi,I mean this.There are some places you just shouldn,t go,you went there.

Yeah, and I'm a future professional football player. If you're going to quote the work of a therapist with "tons and tons"(is that a quantitive measurement device used by mental health professionals or just the future ones?) of success, at least do your research and spell her name correctly. Re: "second rate college"...there's a name for this kind of institutional snobbery...um...it's coming to me...um...where's Marcia Lenehan (sp?) when you need her?

And do tell us Bell_jar,just who you think should take control of these urges? Are there special fairies who come out and care for the mentally ill?Well,let me give you a cold slap in the face,families get real tired,real soon,of dealing with the mentally ill.And I am speaking as an authority on this subject,you see, I work in an acute psychiatric facility,I just got off of work,I let myself out with the keys,something my patients will never have the opportunity of doing.Families get tired real soon, of brother Bob,hiding in their bushes,and jumping out with butcher knifes and axes,because the voices tell them to.In the many years I have worked in this field,numerous families have literally had to move,without leaving a forwarding address,to protect themselves from their ill family members. These patients live a horrid existence,voices,like demons from hell constantly chattering at them,"commanding" them to commit these bizarre actions.You see,they can not take control of their lives,and end up in a long term facility,like the one I work at.Heavily sedated,not unlike "zombies",wandering aimlessly about the facility,until redirected to "go and eat now","no, thats food,put it in your mouth","thats not your food,leave Patsy's food alone,and eat your own food",and hence, their days go on and on like this with the staff trying to redirect their behaviors,to something positive.Did I mention the female patient who attacked me last night because "her eye hurt,and I wouldn't take it out and hold it in my hand".The point Rhi and I are trying to get across,is that this cutter,at this point in her life,does have a choice,and the time to expand on it is NOW,before its too late,because the Mental Health Highway is a real scary,unpredictable journey to embark on,and one that you often can't return from.If we hear the right words come out of their mouths,we are legally obligated to keep them hospitalized,so they don't hurt themselves,or others,and with enough court ordered confinements,we can and will institutionalize them permanently.And trust me on this,these are not places one wants to spend the rest of your life. So tell us again,whom you think should be accountable for these personality disorders?

ya'll should just let nature run its course. fucking pussies. if you can't cope with existence, end it. bell_jar, you're a whiner. this fucking bullshit victim mentality is a crock of shit. wah wah, don't write me off! dump energy into me so that i can approach normalacy! so how well do you function in society now, bell_jar? you productive?

define "productive". your own definition.

wake me up before you schizoid... so i can point and laugh. wasn't that a song in the 80's? "wake me up before you schizoid?" nevermind. anyway, i think the appropriate thing to do here is to berate the emotionally compromised until they feel completely alienated and ostracized. feed their sense of "otherness" with bitter derision, blame them for their shortcomings, and work them up into a frenzy of self-destructive rage. then arm them to the teeth and send them to california to do God's Work. gather around in a circle and sacrifice the lamb. social darwinist fallout always gets great ratings on CNN.

i don't blame anyone except those who haven't experienced it, who make judgements beyond their scope of knowledge. mental health professionals who deal with BPD and say that it is merely the person and their willfulness against helping themselves are wrong. that mentality stems from lack of understanding, from egotistical persons who can't believe that THEIR way isn't the right way. I see nothing wrong with dumping energy into someone so that they will survive. So that they will live somewhat comfortably until they die. I plan on dedicating my life to that. I don't apologize for it, and I won't ever. My mother has cancer, should she too be held accountable for something gone ary in her body? Accourding to Nate my mother would be a whiner. We should let nature run its course, no need to uhh... you know do the whole chemotherapy thing. Afterall, we'd be plugging energy into something just to make her life normal. People who contract HIV through sex, should we hold them soley accountable? Should we just let them die without trying to find a cure?

productive - producing something. ie. instead of hitching your trailer to the volvo tractor of society and enjoying a free ride. or worse, not enjoying your free ride. i think that when people choose to fuck their own shit, we should let them. hopefully they'll do it quickly.

mmmm... i am so productive right now. it's crazy. i worked with someone who doesn't blame me for the disorder that I have. The first day I went in to see her, she told me not to tell people that I have BPD because people don't react well to it. People throw blame in your face. She was ever so right. Although, I don't have BPD, I don't have a specific personality disorder. Look at me now. I'm vocalizing an opinion that differs from everyone around me. I'm not uncomfortable. ... a year ago I couldn't stand for people not to like me. Now... I'm indifferent. You aren't right, I'm not apologizing because I'm different. You're just ignorant. So I'm just trying to make you aware of it, so you don't fuck up someone who isn't quite as "productive" as I am.

everyone needs a problem. every problem needs a label. lock yourself in and you are assured you will have to live with it. victim victim victim. cancer & HIV are not even in the same league. we're talking about a conscious choice not put the razor to your skin, the gun to your head. "BPD" is like smoking tobacco. you put yourself in the mind set, you water it, it grows. takes root. the longer you play the record, the harder it is to get the tune out of your head. when you have to quit, it's tough. but not impossible. it is a matter of will. you don't have the will to live, let you die i say. but don't start telling me that society owes everyone who was stupid enough to start smoking the energy needed to stop. find your own energy. take responsibility for your own goddamn self.

ok. i'm glad you aren't attaching any value to what's being produced. that would make nearly everybody unproductive. which would be my definition. but at the same time, i don't place much value on productivity.

productivity is somewhat personal when it comes to value. if you are an artist whose art is taping junk to junk, and you manage to sell enough or flip enough burgers to maintain your shack and your diet, that's fine. you're productive, you're not weighing on society. i must have had BPD as a child. if you can't cut it, cut it.

"the Flesh lusteth contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the Flesh; and these two are one against another, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would do."

BPD is nothing like smoking tobacco. people don't just choose to feel frantic about avoiding abandonment. people don't choose to have a pattern of unstable interpersonal relationships, nor do they one day decide to have an unstable self-image. i know i didn't choose to be as mood dependent as i am. and oh, emptiness, i often go out for a break on the job and wallow in my emptiness so i can get a buzz. sounds like something people choose to feel. asshole. i didn't one day go out and decide that i'd like to have bpd, just like my mom didn't decide she wanted cancer. maybe i was born with it, maybe i acquired it, i don't know. i was seven years old the first time a hurt myself. but then again. a seven year old should be soley responsible for any disturbing behavior she does.

"there is the belief among mental health professionals that Borderline Personality Disorder may not even be a legitimate mental disorder (kind of like hysteria) so please don't use the BPD diagnosis as a way to give up the control you really do have over your body and your actions." - Rhiannon If you're going to put words into someone's mouth, it's kind of silly to do it when that person's actual statement is just a few posts above it. If anyone is displaying a closed mind here, bell_jar, it's you. Oh, and she does have a degree in the subject, whichi does make her more qualified to talk about it than you. You can talk about it from the inside, but she can analyze it from the outside and look at it in a critical manner.

you have decided to maintain it. you have decided that this is who you are. people don't choose to be addicted. it happens, then they have to choose to not let the addiction consume them. you can steel your will against whatever problems you preceive you posess. you've decided to be a victim. it's written all over your posts in your negative, self-defeating attitude. it's a choice. you've made yours. from where i stand i know my choice was better. i am a happy person.

i wanna watch dave's cat eat a whole watermelon.

degrees are a funny thing. in my few years of being out in the "real" world and not having a degree i've been able to narrow down just what a degree can get me. an opportunity to show up to work late, leave early, take a long lunch, and pass the work off to someone else who doesn't have a degree.

that's perverse.

shut up margret..........rein on Rhiannon bell jar.......were you a ritalin kid? You are not born with a behavior problem. A malignant growth on my nutz is hardly comparable to your marylin manson-ed, selfpity-induced teenage melodrama-ed ass that seems to "justify" your actions of slicing and dicing yourself. unstable self-image? pay note to the "self" in self image. No one is responsible for a low self esteem except you.

I think she is a real "cut-up".

Bell_jar,you whine and complain that "us trained proffesionals" don't understand the problem,that we're not knowledgable in these areas,that we're egotistcal in thinking our training is beneficial.Its time for a reality check,my dear.When your car breaks,where do you take it?To your dentist?Your mom has cancer,who provides her medical care,Joe the Green Grocer?We don't understand the syndrome,because we don't have it,and you do because you have experienced it,well my dear,your experience is very limited,yourself,maybe a few "cohorts",but the proffesionals have [and continue to] studied the masses,and can view these disorders in a clinical fashion,not drawing on only a few cases to give them insight.You my dear,are the egotistical one,"I know more than you,cause I have the disorder,nah nah nah".In your scope of thinking,perhaps we should not have imprisonend the Jeffery Dahlmers and Charles Mansons of the world,but could have used their "talents" to counsel others who have their specific personality disorders,because,surley,no one could understand it better than one who has it themselves.

'no one is responsible for a low self esteem except you.' ha ha. did you get that out of a book? 'You are not born with a behavior problem.' Are we still talking about BPD? It isn't a behavior problem it's a mental disorder. Ever see the movie The Virgin Suicides? Excellent movie. Maybe it could enlighten you. Though I don't think you choose to be so. If you think that because your illness can be seen that you're so much better than people with mental illnesses you're wrong. It's a lot easier to handle a physical illness than mental illnesses because people around you are more understanding. People are more willing to help. As for my teenage-angst. ha ha ha. i kind of like it. it's going to carry me through. i'm tired of being petty. the discussion has gone too far away from where it was. it has lost its appeal. i like to learn to new things, and i feel that i have learned something. not anything particularly useful, but something to amuse myself with in the future. i was thoroughly amused by you all. thank you ever so much.

no charge. it's on the house. but i still wanna see the cat eat the watermelon.

Czarina deserves a response, and i promise it will be my last. _The Fountainhead_

i remember when i was a teenage ass

I read that book,wtf? That doesn,t mean shit to a tree.

yea,unfortunately,Bell_jar chose a poor simile. Chalk it up to youth.

actually one day , bell jar, star ......one day you will wake up, you will be 21, 22, maybe 23, your teenangst gas tank will be on E, you will wake up and realize that the world was not the one who didn't understand you, yet it was indeed you who didn't understand the world. You will realize your arrogance, your fallability,your futile attempts to change everything and yet nothing at all and that very little of what you bitched and moaned about made little if any difference. And then hopefully, as an intelligent adult, move on to more important things in life. And to defend Rhiannon's degree, obviously a piece of paper saying you passed all the requirements doesn't make you *better*, but it does demonstrate that she took the time to read and pass certain examinations on a particular subject, where as your field has been limited to your own ass...someone with a degree in a science, should be listened to, you don't have to believe but chances are they have spent more time than you studying the subject at hand. If you like to leanr new things, you should shut up for a minute. i didn't get that bit about self image from a book or anywhere for that matter except my mother who made a comment to me when i was young and sad about one thing or another. Its actually quite obvious you poophead.....self esteem, where is the source of this esteem? Is smoking a mental disorder? How about gambling? Drinking? Drugs? These are hardly "disorders" as you victims like to reassure yourselves with in therapy. They are often behavior patterns of a selfish individual, who likes to cite other reasons why they can't stop betting or stop drinking....."its the disease, the disease that is making me pick up the dice......" stop being a pussy and own up to your actions. no go wank to sylvia plath poems and cry yourself to sleep with some good ole morrisey.........there is tons of comfort to be had in one's own self pity.....

Hmmm...my relationship with my parents....well, J, it is quite simple, but yet oh so complex. I am the civil servant..the reason I haven't been on in a while, is because I have spent the past 2 days scrubbing every inch of this god forsaken house while my dad sat on his ass and drank ice tea in front of the television. So, obviously, me and my dad aren't very good friends, and I think when I was born, he said to the doctor "as soon as she hits 10, she is gonna wash dishes, and wait on me hand and foot." And, he got his wish. My mom is a bit different, she wants me to be a sweater set-wearing, pink-cheeked, blonde-bob girl. She wants me to "Learn to cook better" because without this, I will "never get a husband" and that my looks are too boyish and that is why Josh never asked me out. The real reason Josh didn't ask me out, is because he was more in love with my brother than me. Josh is this guy my mom thinks I am made for, because he is on the football team, and runs cross country, and will "definetly be someone some day." So here I am, with my mom smiling, and telling me that I need to "respect" my father. I don't know how I can respect a man who wears his underwear in the living room at almost every hour of the day, watches racing, and drinks more than 6 glasses of ice tea a day, but never once fills his own glass, or gets up only to pee. I have an older brother, who is a fucking saint, or so my parents think. He works at the Old Navy, and has a sweet girlfriend. But I know in all truths, that he fucks his girlfriend every damn night, while I am forced to stay home and color-cordinate the bathroom towels, because company is coming over. So all in all, I think my relationship with my parents, basicly sucks.

oh yeah. now *that's* what being an adult is all about. cut out all the fucking wanking and bring on the goddamned melon-eating cat for chrissakes.

at what point on the road to nowhere did cats start eating melons?

Well,we must admit her father is a pretty heavy tea consumer. Patrick once sent a picture of two guys fucking a watermelon,would that do?

Jeez, I go to work and come back to find a big fight happened and I missed it. So, yeah, what they said. And I'll say it again: as long as people refuse responsibility for their actions, no change will occur. When I'm on the Pill, the littlest things make me ferociously angry. And I do get angry. I feel intense anger. But I don't beat people up, I don't shoot people, I don't burn houses down, and I don't torture animals. I want to, but I don't. Because I'm in control. I control my anger. I control my behavior. Because it wouldn't be the hormones that made me break someone's nose...it would be my own free will that made me choose to ball up my fist and swing. My choice. But if it's easier for you, Bell Jar, to foist responsibility for your unhappiness onto something you believe you have no control over, rather than to actively modify your behavior and take steps to eliminate your self-defeating habits, then that's also a choice that you have chosen. Fortunately, it's not too late to change your mind. For the record, I'm not a mental health professional, nor do I claim to be. I work in a library. And, as Semillama pointed out, I said some people in the mental health field question the legitimacy of the BPD category. I didn't say I thought this. I've just read the research.

sorry i missed my cue. today was one of the days that i have to take my act on the road. i went to vancouver, portland's troubled step-child with bpd. swine: see ruben and ed. that should help.

My cats eat melon. I don't know about whole ones, though. One of them just stol ehalf the linguine with garlic and olive oil I had sitting on a plate while I wasn't looking. I think I must have been using bad gas in my teenage angstt gas tank, because it only lasted about a year and then it went totally dry. Maybe I had a small car.

Christ. J, Czarina, patrick... Ya'll are being serious fuckheads. Nate and swine are professionals, I expect it from them. But, shit, ya'll are borderlining on asshole here. Most of the behavior each of you are complaining about haven't even been mentioned by Star or Bell_jar. Who said anything about axe wielding schitzos? For the record, I do have a degree in psychology, and that's exactly why I never give advice. A little knowledge can make you believe you posses more than you actually do. I don't think Rhi suffers from that, but it's a posibility, and it's not beyond the pale to call her on it. These are charged issues here, as psychological ones usually are And, as for victimhood, most of ya'll are victims of arrogance, and you seem to have no problem sharing that disorder, so why the fuck do you bitch when someone else shares theirs?

I didn,t bitch till I felt Rhi was insulted and she was,I have a pretty wierd mental mix myself,I have mentioned them all, psych ward,obsessive compulsive,paranoid,depression,A.D.D,jail,plus I post all the misery around me.So Antigone,I think you should read the thread through.I certainly don,t think I,m better than ANYONE here,just some I care about more than ones that can,t take some constructive critisisim(I know I spelled that wrong,but you know what I mean).WTF is up with you?Never mind,I can post on the drunk rambeling post and I need some estrogen and a gun.

I just get ticked when I see the sharks circling. Like you said, you give Rhi the benefit of the doubt because you know and care for her. But, given the medium we're posting in, Star or Bell_jar could BE Rhiannon, for all you know.

And to Star,if your dad is really like that,I bet your mom is not a happy camper,she is just probably wanting you to have a better life than her.And Bell_Jar,how old are you?I lost my dad to cancer when I was 15,tried to kill myself,almost did it,glad I didn,t no matter how fucked up I am.I know about trying cope with things you feel helpless about.Your veiws will change.

That's Droopy's game, not mine. Thanks, J. :)

That's what they all say...

Yep

Thanks, AntigoCat...

slow down there, spanky. i was being sarcastic when suggesting that berating those kids to death was the appropriate thing to do. the whole clusterfuck of "adults" haranguing those teenaged kids was a sad and pathetic sight. reads more like a nasty circle-jerk than any sincere attempt at setting the poor little fucked-up poobahs straight. now i'll be the first to admit that i jerk off all the time, but if you're gonna accuse me of being a fuckhead you shouldn't do it when i'm in total agreement with you. cuz that would make us both fuckheads. and we wouldn't want that.

How did you do that?

once again, i had to stay out of it. i had a little mini nervous breakdown last week, which always makes me appreciate my relative sanity when it comes back. being a teenager sucks, and i remember being miserable, and you can't tell them that they will grow out of it and see the error of their ways because a: what they are experiencing may not be related to their youth and b: they won't believe you anyhow, even if they do move past their current emotional frame of mind. would any of you have listened to such advice at that age? i think no fucking way. anyhow. coherence will come back to me eventually. be kind, all of you.

The magic of TCP/IP, Cat. Just call me Mr Wizard. And, swine, sure we would, fuckhead. :-P

If anyone would have gave a shit about,never mind

Antigone, please email me and explain..I'm very curious about the process

Antigone,I know where you are going with that and I don,t care.

throught this all, I somehow think that the image of dave's cat, stuffed on watermelon, may hold the key to it all.

for the record, i think arrogance is a positive trait. for the record, i didn't see any "Oatmeal Boy, White, Age 22" tags. didn't know we were clusterfucking teens. not that this would have changed anything.

nate, the difference between a confident person and arrogant person is that an arrogant person has never been properly shut down. when i see arrogant people, i like to imagine their heads blowing up. with a few exceptions, arrogant people get nothing but resistance from me. my first post on this thread was really countering star's post in another thread where she commented that at least so-and-so wouldn't be able to breed because his nuts had been removed. something to that effect.

"poobahs" a kick ass record store in pasadena with a garage full of vinyl antigone i kinda wish somebody had said what i said above to me when i was 17.....wait.....they did....nevermind

Cat--search the old message boards. The method has been discussed in depth.

J- i'm 21. it seems we're always deemed "too young" to understand things. chalk it up to youth is just one of the most irritating things to say to someone. i don't deny that i lack ultimate wisdom caused by years of experience. unfortunately, my life has been full of experiences, probably more than my peers. almost definately more than my peers. within the year i will be a parent to my two sisters who are 9 and 4. will that boost me up into the "adulthood" that will allow me to have a valid opinion? i don't intend to sound mean in this post.

You don't sound mean Bell, just frustrated with the restrictions of age. Yes, age is a factor in respect. And so it should be. Nothing like talking to someone who's been there to get some guideposts to make the journey easier and more interesting. But intelligence, thoughtfulness, originality, creativity and enthusiasm will also garner their own respect. And those qualities are not limited to older people.

I,m sure somehow this is connected to you hurting yourself,it certainly sounds like you have more than your share of burden.Are there no other family to help you?You are older than I thought you were,too young to have to be responsible for two young ones,thats not to sound mean eitther,if I knew my mother was dying at your age and have to take over,I don,t think I coulddd handle it.I know I couldn,t. I,m old enough to be your mother but I,m pretty immature for my age some people don,t think I act too grown-up.I know some kids who are very mature,but that is more a state of mind.I had a baby when I just turned 19,I didn,t know shit,but I realized I was responsible for her and I was going to take care of her and see that she had what she needed.Figured out how to do it.I was going somewhere with this.Anyway,what can I say??Life is like a shit sandwich and everyday you take a bigger bite.Have you any family to help you,know any community help?

i hurt myself before my mother became sick. though i would venture to say that i'm "cured" of the self-harm activity. i haven't done anything "silly" for six months. i have urges sometimes, but i'm doing good at working around them. my grandparents would have been a great support, but my grandfather recently passed away and my grandmother seems less motivated without him by her side. my mother has a husband, the father of my sisters, but i hope very much that he doesn't try to "help" out. i will have my degree next may, so hopefully i will be able to do okay financially. i had hoped for graduate or law school, but we'll see. as for age being a factor in respect, well, i don't believe it should be. i grant each person i encounter respect this is regardless of their age. i worked with children for several years in a boys and girls club, and it was necessary to give respect in order to receive it. as corny as it sounds... it's the golden rule... and i suppose i jumped the gun a bit. i'm 20, but i'll be 21 next month. happy birthday to me.

"Factor" doesn't mean the whole equation.

I'm glad you have the self mutilation thing under control,because you wouldn't want to pass it along to your younger siblings.All of you are going to have a tuff enough time with the loss of your mom.I sincerely wish you the best,and know this will be a devastating milestone in all of your lives.Its great that you will be there for your younger siblings,and undoubtly they will help give you comfort, also.

There it is,someway I think some of you are much younger than me but more mature,but we all do our best.Plus Bell_Jar,it will make you scar and that won,t look good if some asshole tries to make trouble.Hon,I hate to tell you but you are going to need some kind of support,unless your mom has made plans if something like this comes up,really,look into some community service that can help you all cope with this

Cat interesting IP you got. Where are u? I am in Aussie as well.

Cat I did not mean to scare you with my email If it helps I cna give you my full name and phone number and even home adress or you can have my mothers phone number if it would make you feel better *lol* For what its worth I really liked your show from Thailand and thats all I wanted to say. I wont bother you again