i was driving home from my mothers yesterday, and i suppose i've reached the anger stage in the five (?) stages of death, as i couldn't stop telling god how much i hated her/him. she's going blind for goodness sake, and she's only 42 years old. my five year old sister will never remember her mother as anything but a sick woman wasting away in a bedroom. i hate the fact that i grew up with this notion that someone was "up there" looking out for me, and now i'm sitting here in this shitty world wondering what the fuck i did wrong. if the god that my family forced on me is up there and looking out for me, well fuck her/him. i'm able to put myself into the shoes of any human being and understand his/her motives and accept him/her. but i can't understand the motives of god. i wish i could just disregard my belief in her/him. why was i teased only to be disappointed? fuck you god.

I haven't quite ironed out my belief in God, but I'm secure in my conviction that nobody is watching out for us. If there is a God, there's definately no devine intervention going on... I feel for you, Bell Jar.

the only time i ever prayed was during basketball games. my mom used to teach sunday school. i loved it because we did art projects and sang songs. now i redecorate my room instead of practicing a religion. if there is a god, it can only help people to help themselves. free will. all the way.

bell, it's good that you can recognize the anger. Sadly, there is no god. according to Neitzsche (whom I can't believe you like at all, calling yourself bell_jar and all...), we killed him. More likely, he just got stoned and wandered off. God is a story. an idea. he has nothing to do with the pain and suffering in your life. *grin* On the other hand, he has EVERYTHING to do with it. Well, when you grew up, WAS there someone looking out for you "up there?" And was it God, or your parents? I've never understood the parent-child love. Well, I sorta do. I feel nothing but a mild annoyance (and, of course, the overwhelming love that I feel for the majority of life in the universe) for my biological mother (yes, she raised me until I was 16) most of the time. I don't talk to most of my family at all except my father... point being: I always see people who are saying things like "arg! that pissed me off, but I love him, 'cause, y'know, he's my brother, and I have to." WHERE does that come from? the idea that a biological connection creates some sort of invisible bond? I had a shitty childhood, but it wasn't shitty enough to be an after school special, or anything; it was just more bad than good; which probably makes it about average, so I can't believe that I'm alone in this regard. If you're beaten routinely by your parents, sure, you won't like them. but short of that, it seems like people are just supposed to be attached to the people that spawned them. WHY!?!?!?! I still don't get it. it's driving me crazy, because I love my daughter like crazy, but I hardly ever see her, and I'm sure that she's going to grow up not really caring about me. So now I'm on the other end, but it hasn't rekindled any sort of lost love for my own family. whoah. lemme pick up that piece of skull, and I'll just be on my way.

I'm indifferent about my half-sisters. One of them is psycho, and neither of them talk to me. None of us talk to each other, actually. Cary's in Germany right now and Eliza is in British Columbia...I think. I hate my mother. My father's a purple penis hunter, but I like him well enough. I feel no obligation to anyone else related to me by blood. After all, if this God shit is true, I would need to feel obligation to all of you sons and daughters of Eve and Adam out there. And that would be no good.

i am god. if it helps, blame me. if it doesn't help, read Job.

firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your mom, Bell. secondly, the notes on this thread shock me. you talk about love/hate so matter-of-factly. like it means nothing. it means Something. it means something to Me, anyway. thirdly, if I were god I would have nothing to do with any of you. that includes the whole wide world. what makes you think you deserve intervention?

I am my own goddess...I'm often sacrifice a chicken to myself. My body is my temple (I think I stole that from the other bloke who calls himself God), which is probably why the congregation is down.

Gee, you just pointed out the whole problem with this deity idea. Deserve intervention???? WTF!!! Saul, who tortured and killed thousands of christians, according to Acts, got intervention. But, I guess Bell_Jar does not deserve it?

Bell Jar, I read your post and my first thought was, I wish I could say something that would comfort her and reassure her that things will be all right. But I don't know what to say. I can't imagine what you're going through, and I doubt that I could say anything appropriate or helpful anyway. I don't know what God's about. All I believe is what I've figured out on my own. I don't believe your mother is suffering for a reason: to teach her/you something, to fulfill God's plan, to pay for her sins, or anything like that. I don't know why there is cancer, or hurricanes, or child abuse, but I don't believe God causes such things nor does He intervene when they occur. He didn't intervene when Jesus was crucified, so I don't imagine that intervention is something He engages in very often. I will say that I am positive that you did nothing wrong, and neither did your mother. And God is still looking out for you, even if you can't feel Him out there. I don't know if this means anything to you, but I'll pray for you, your mother, and your family. I really hope things go all right for you.

i deserve some oral intervention of the cock, but alas I am humbled by its obscurity

it's interesting you talk of no obligation to blood due to dislike. i don't like my mother, but i love her as i am obligated to do so by being her daughter. i suppose that is what makes her dying so hard. i have never forgiven her for all of things she did to me during childhood. for aiding me in becoming the fucked up person i am today. (example: i had a meeting today and a woman gave me a compliment. i felt so very uncomfortable. i can not handle people saying nice things about me. i have had it pounded into my head since birth that i am a selfish, horrid girl that deserves nothing) you get this nonstop for about 18 years and then you see the woman wasting away, and what are you supposed to do? hate her? as for Neitzsche i was impressed with him, i really did not like the Bell Jar (it was once explained on another thread). i need to stop feeling sorry for myself.

I don't have the God thing ironed out either. But I can't help but feel a little sad when I see/hear people lash out against God. I'm glad to see Rhiannon's post - that's what God is about. Not striking out in an act of divine retribution. Not hurling down plague and disease. Not starting world wars. Mankind was given free will. Choice. To do something helpful to others, or to fulfill our own desires. Unfortunately, we tend to choose the latter, at the expense of those around us. God is about giving love and compassion to those around us. He sent his son as an example of how to conduct ourselves. I've deleted a lot more that I've written here. I'm sure I'll get flamed for what I left behind. I'm not sure what else to say, so I'll shut up for now.

Nah, Wavy. I doubt anybody's going to flame you or Rhiannon for your posts. 2 of the nicest, most thoughtful posts I've seen in a long time.

I think I'll but away my marshmellows now.

No flames. I'm all about compassion. And I second Rhiannon's thoughts: my first urge was to come up with something hopeful, inspiring, helpful. But I just haven't been there, so I defaulted to "slightly less asshole" instead. I'm still curious about the blood bond. What is it about being her daughter that makes you obligated to love her? Everyone should read "another roadside attraction" by Tom Robbins. There is no god, no reason, no meaning. It's all just energy in patterns. Hrm. when a part of someone's paradigm is forcibly altered, you either replace that part of the structure, or develop an entirely new paradigm. In other words: every time one of those ropes holding you up snaps, you can either find a replacement rope, or learn to levitate. I love this quote that my mom had hanging in her living room: "There are two things we can give our children: One is roots, the other is wings."

Re the blood bond, I don't feel it much either. I didn't have a really bad childhood (and have had a somewhat OK life since), but somehow I don't really feel all that much gratitude for being thrown into all of this. Maybe it's not gratitude. Maybe it's just instinct or an axiom for some people. It could be like the terminator asking why you don't kill people. You just don't. You don't kill people and you love your parents no matter what.

why don't you kill people? what if god is the sumtotal of everything? why do you assume you can understand?

*shoves the body back into the closet* Ugh. What?

nobody should read "another roadside attraction" by tom robbins.

I guess i'm agnostic. I don't believe in organised religion, but i'm not sure that god does(not) exist. My father left us when I was four. I didn't get to know him until i was 20. By that time, any "familial bond" was just a vain hope on my part. I wanted him to be a father to me, but without all the history and growing up and stuff, there was really nothing there. I wished for him to be a part of my life, and he came all the way from Florida to NZ. Then i couldn't cope with his lack of "fatherlyness" or whatever i was looking for in him. And I wished him away again. He was just another complication that i found I couldn't deal with. He got deported back to the States. I feel sad that i missed out on having a father, but i don't think that I love him because i carry his genetic code. If anything, i wish that he had been around when I was growing up, so that we could have more than a biological relationship now. I don't even know where he is anymore. I last wrote to him when my little sister died (she was also his daughter), via my Aunt. I never had a reply from either of them. The letter hasn't been returned, so i guess it was delivered. Family love is not about who's related to whom. It's about shared experiences. I am closer to my step brother than to my father. Although we only see each other occasionally, there is genuine warmth of feeling. On the other hand, i can no longer trust my stepfather. I felt betrayed by the way he left, blaming me for "not loving him as much as I loved my father" wtf? I was 4 - I hardly remember him being there! We have almost no contact now. I found out today that he insisted that my brothers not tell my sister or me about what they did with Sappho's ashes. I gave them a partion before we buried them in February. In March, they installed a plaque on a cliff face overlooking the ocean and scattered her ashes at sea. I would have loved to be there, but he never gave me the choice.

i love my parents. i hate how they expect me to be. i worry about my grandparents. my mother's father is 88. if i ever get married and have kids, i'll be lucky if he ever will recognise them. i love my grandparents. i wish they could live forever. i better get off the computer. i need to cry.

she's in the hospital now. she can't move or talk. they think maybe a stroke. i don't know what is going on. i'm buying a "jesus hates me" t-shirt.

Oh,hon,hold on.I feel your pain.

*Goes to lay out ritual and think good vibes at Bell_jar and her mother. And her sister.* Best wishes, hope, and love, Bell.