I can't believe it. But I am here. I love my apartment. I am really excited because a.) this is the first time I have ever lived alone, and b.) it wasn't the shit-hole I was preparing myself for. And apparently I got a deal. I was talking to some members of my cohort who said they couldn't afford this area and I am playing about $100 less then thay are for one-bedrooms. "First, I'll buy some beads. And a book of indian lore." ---FZ I live near Little Five Points which is a neighborhood that is just way too cool for me, with all kinds of headshops and trendy places to see and be seen. But Charis, the oldest women's book store in the south is right up the street, and the food co-op is within walking distance which is nice because it means I don't have far to to get my non-dairy goodies and the Dr. Bronner hippie crap that I use to wash my bottom. And in this one little area there are more local coffee places than Starbucks. Beyond that there is just food everywhere. We had the most amazing Thai food the other night. And Patrick, the places you told me about are all still around. I found Manuel's Tavern the other day. My stepfather noticed it and said, "now that's a real bar." I got thrown for a little high school music nostalgia as Juliana Hatfield is playing at the Red Light Cafe next month. Any and all recommendations are always welcome as you think of them. I intend to enjoy myself this time around, instead of using my little free time trying to convince myself that I am a solitary intellectual and nothing more.

Yeah, notice the suburban punkfucks flock to L5P on the weekends. Watch out, those hippies at the co-op will jip you over your wheatgrass smoothie mix in a heartbeat. One of the great mexican joints is up the way on Ponce called El Azteca. Typical east coast mexican food, but it was almost ritual for us to go there on Sundays for a late lunch/early dinner and get smashed on margaritas. Another great Place just down Ponce Ave is "Eats" quoting Zagats: "Punks, preps, college kids and older folks munch and chat at this funky, way-cheap urban cafeteria, an Intown Southern Italian melting pot that features a satisfying menu of simple eats (think pretty decent pastas, plenty of healthy, fresh veggies and, oddly, the best jerk chicken north of Montego Bay); who cares about the dorm-room decor when you can "get in, get fed and get out at such bargain prices? We lived off this place. Plus our friends worked there.

Please tell me more about the Dr.Bronner hippie crap you use to wash your bottom.

I use Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps 18-in-One Hemp LAVENDER PURE-CASTILE SOAP In addition to lavender they also have other scents like eucalyptus, almond, and peppermint. (The peppermint one is great, especially in the summertime...it makes you feel all tingly.) You're supposed to be able to do all kinds of stuff with it (i.e. laundry, brush your teeth, etc.) but I just use it as a shower gel. There are all kinds of stuff written all over the bottles. This one has an adaptation of God Our Eternal Father! by Rudyard Kipling and A Psalm of Life by Longfellow. I like it because it smells pretty. I can't use anything that is scented with chemicals because it makes me sick. Here is the website: Dr. Bronner Hippie Crap

i like dr bronner's, but it gives me yeast infections. so, there ya go.

I use almond. It has erotic love poetry on the label. I've never used it to brush my teeth/wash my hair/do laundry, though. Just for my body. It smells good. There's something refreshing about taking a shower and having that faint almondy (cyanide) smell about you.

I use cock soap. It lathers so well and makes me dirty all over.

I love the smell of sandelwood, but its so hard to get in chick stuff.

akk..atlanta is the anus of america. what a nasty foul horrible excuse for a city

I think it smells rather nice. Much better than Boston. The bugs are huge, but to make up for it so are the butterflies. I got lost in Druid Hills yesterday. I saw an old four door VW. It looked like siamese VW beetle-cars joined at the ass. There was another old beetle in the driveway, pink with a snout on the hood and the cover to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album painted in the door. Does anyone else have a chronic procrastination problem? I can't seem to get anything done and all I have to do is put my books away, toss out all this cardboard and sweep and it's just not getting done. I think it may be genetic. Even my hair procratinates, it doesn't start curling until a good two inches away from my scalp. I don't even think I've ever had insomnia. I've just put off sleeping. Moonit, Have you tried buying sandlewood oil and then using it to scent unscented soaps and stuff?

RE: Chronic procrastination problem. Any time I post during business hours, I'm putting off doing work. If you really want to kill some time, dig around and somewhere you'll find a thread I started about 3 years ago in which I put off writing two papers until the night before they were due and made myself sick by taking too much No-Doz. I got an extension from my dean, and *even then* put off writing the papers until the day they were absolutely due. I just don't seem to be able to discipline myself.

"Does anyone else have a chronic procrastination problem?" Honey thats the southern heat gettin to ya. Its bess jist ta g'wyne sit on ya porch with some lemonade till afta dark.

It's going to take me ten years to get this PhD.

What is the PhD you're working on?

Women's studies.

Not to degrade you or your work. But, from what I've heard isn't that the most useless degree there is? Isn't it about how men have degraded and abused women since time began? And, women don't "need" a man to feel fulfilled? I have no first hand knowledge of the coursework. But, I think the only thing it could possibly prepare you for is teaching womens studies. And, isn't that truley a waste of time?

Look, another horrible pick up line!

"Not to degrade you or your work." But you went ahead and did anyway. Thanks. No, universities don't give departmental status to or offer fellowship money to disciplines whose sole focus is blaming men and offering women cheap and empty advice. Yes, women's studies was founded on studying the experiences and contributions of women. But the subsequent theories and knowledges that have emerged are not just about women. Nor are they just about gender, but also race, class, sexuality, ethnicity, ability, age, etc. It examines they way that everyone, men and women, help to perpetuate social inequality and examines this on a systematic and institutional level so that change can happen without indvidual blame, of course, except where individual accountablitity is necessary. The study is a socially critical and interdisciplinary one. It applies feminist theory to other studies. It can prepare you for work in any of those studies, but your focus may be different. People in my department study everything from public health to policy to philosophy. Some go on to teach, others go on to work as therapists, case workers, lawyers, in the non-profit sector, and sometimes, in the corporate world as well. If you don't agree with it's arguements or perspectives, fine, but don't tell me that what I do a is waste of time again.

Spider...you make me smile I hope someday you'll consider me a non-scary aquaintence and meet me for coffee if we are even in each other's cities of residence

And I don't usually get that as a pick-up line much. Mostly it's, "Really? I like to study women too."

hey watcher, i have to admit, i kinda enjoyed watching you fall into that. it might help you to know, if you dont already, the definition of "feminism". yes it appears on the surface to favor the female gender, but its really about equality and inclusion and thats the jist of women's studies, as kazoo laid out. yes its called "women's" but its certainly not limited to that. how's that shoe taste fucko?

Thanks, Kazoo. :)

Sorry I offended you. My comments were based soley on what I heard. Some of which you just comfirmed, "it applies femminist therory to other studies". However, I am impressed with the broad range covered under this heading of Womens Studies. I just think you would be better served by concentrating on those specific areas without the femminist approach.

"I just think you would be better served by concentrating on those specific areas without the femminist approach." In other words, do what everyone is else is doing and not what really drives your passions.

so watcher, you arent a feminist?

So Patrick, you arent a maleist?

Kazoo-Is this the kind of stuff you study? No bait here, I promise. I just want to understand.

No. That's called backlash. That isn't to say that there aren't some valid criticisms to be discerned, but most of that is just crap. I don't have time to pick it apart.

spunk. don't be an idiot. its masculinist. i'll post the definitions so its clear... masculinist -an advocate of male superiority or dominance feminism- the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes now, i'll ask you...WHICH ARE YOU? careful, as the wrong answer can land your ass in a shit sling, which i would love to watch unfold.

Answer: Daily Double

Oh, and patshit, I did not say "masculinist" you did. I feel men and women are **gasp** different. Males are in no way superior to females. Females are in no way superior to males. But we are different. We have different ways of thinking, we have different ways of approaching problems, we have different interests. Which is the way it should be, and I would not want it any other way.

Try this and this, Spunky. Well, that's what my college offered, anyway. I kick myself for not taking a single course in that field while I was there. I should have had that experience.

and for the record spunk... i am a feminist, have been one for years, marched for feminist rights in Washington in 92 and support feminist causes, ever since i learned the definition in high school. if people paid attention to the definition of feminism, the term may not be such a hot button, but its been skewed by the media and especially that dumbass you listen too, Rush Limbaugh. If only that motherfucker had a clue. i am a text book feminist and nothing more. now....all this talk of the feminine and hot buttons has kinda got me all uncomfortable.

But I am not going to devote tens of thousands of dollars and 4 years to learn why we are different. Because I have no interest in doing so. If Kazoo does then great, more power to her. I do not think it is a waste if that is what she wants to do. I would have chosen differently. That is called diversity. That is what makes this world go around. And if anyone else would like to call my view that we are all different, not the same, Racist or Chauvenistic, then you are the one with a problem, not me.

spunk...please...try to keep up. I didnt say YOU said "masculinist". I was correcting your use of the term "maleist" of which there is no such thing. The correct term for what you were trying to say...nit wit. spunk believing the sexes are different is irrelavent. thats biology. pay attention to the definition of feminism. it has three main points....political, social and economic equality? if you disagree with any of those three points, you are not a feminist. its really quite simple.

"But I am not going to devote tens of thousands of dollars and 4 years to learn why we are different." Why not? It's pretty interesting.

A lot of these are based on assertions that have been debunked within the feminism and women's studies already. Most of the "radical" feminisms of Millet, Dworkin, while it did have it's importance, for the most part has been criticized for the way that it universalizes women's experiences, and because it fails to take into consideration that not all men benefit from sexism. Also, feminism aims to eliminate itself. Really. It's not about creating oppression via Matriarchy. But ah...wouldn't that be nice...just for a moment. ;)

Well, okay, *you* don't have to study it, but it is an interesting (and valid) field of study.

(You = spunky, not kazoo.)

"But I am not going to devote tens of thousands of dollars..." For the record, This isn't costing me anything. They are paying me.

i have to admit spider this kinda turns me on. I think its the hot pink color and fonts that do it.

Equality is not about eliminating differences. It's about how we value those differences.

i have to admit spider this kinda turns me on. I think its the hot pink color and fonts that do it.

shit

"spunk believing the sexes are different is irrelavent. No, the argument is that we are the same, not different (or does equal not mean same????) same as or equal to. We are not. Period. Thank god! I would hate to go through a period. Or child birth, I could not handle it.

what?

We are not the same. But not everyone and their contributions to society is valued equally. But they should be, at least to the extend that their contribution is necessary to how society functions. That is what equality, as a goal of women's studies means. thank you.

trace you are merely talking about biological differences. we are talking about social, economic and political equality here, not about periods and child rearing. (if you could see the look on my face) If you do not understand what Women's Studies entails (clearly you and watcher don't) you arent really in a position to criticize it now are you. my god....i thought i was dense.

I agree with that. That is true. Maybe there is still problems in the "upper crust" above the "glass ceiling" IE Executive Suites. But that is MAYBE 3% of America's workforce. Middle management and below, we are treated equally. There are still certain jobs in certain states that are filled, intentionally, by females. In the High Desert, CA for example. Gas stations, resteraunts, offices, etc hire females predominantly. The men work in factories or warehouses or machine shops.

ps i wrote that before I read patricks usual "trace is a dumb shit because he disagrees with me" post.

"Middle management and below, we are treated equally. There are still certain jobs in certain states that are filled, intentionally, by females." These two statements completely contradict eachother. Granted, sometimes there are good reasons for sex segregated work arrangements. However, if you look at pay and benefit statistics over the laboring classes, men still benefit. However, not necessarily in the same way as say (for lack of a better term), The Man.

social-You live in a cave? Socially, women are referred to as the "fairer sex", wives are referred to as "My better half". However, things such as "Women's Entertainment Network", "Oxygen", and "Lifetime For Women" (I always thought Lifetime was for women)only further the problem. Eri watches Lifetime a lot. I just grown and say "Not another Evil Man movie". I realize not all of them are about wife beaters, wife murderers, cheating husbands and oppressive husbands, but most of them are. They paint themselves as Celebrating Women, but instead Demonize men and marraige. economic-Dude, we are equal now, becase they raised women's pay 25% and reduced men's by 50%. and political equality -I cannot speak of. I am not sure if you mean ERA laws or Ladies in Government

I sure would not want to work for La Petite. I love my two, but I do not have the tollerance to watch 20-30 toddlers.....

...my mind has exploded.

"political equality -I cannot speak of. I am not sure if you mean ERA laws or Ladies in Government" If you mean females in congress, senate or white house, Yes. Very disproportionate numbers. Not exactly sure why that is still happening today. That would be a good thing to study. I would say that women have as much say in who is sent to washington, but I am not so sure anyone of us have any real say anymore.

Spunky, do you really think that Women's Studies is the equivalent of the Lifetime Network? Read the course list I linked to.

Patrick, you should visit Bryn Mawr some day. I think you'd like it. :)

Spunky, Have you ever been a woman in a abusive relationship? Have you ever noticed that those movies offer women solutions, like going to the police, talking to other women, etc.? Yeah, some of that shit is cheesy, but they often deal with issues that women have to deal with and don't know how to get out of. ERA-laws? The ERA was never passed because women like Phyllis Schafley painted it out to be an attempt to destroy the family and force same sex bathrooms...among other things.

No, I do not. I never said I thought Feminist Studies were wrong. I never said they were a bad idea. I think it is a good thing. What is more obvious to the public, though> Lifetime or Bryn Mawr college courses?

Yeah, I never thought I'd ever be in the position to defend Lifetime for Women, but sometimes it does have it's place. And actually, Lifetime's web-site has one of the best columns I've ever seen about being single. It was the kind I would have written, except mine would have been much more cynical. And with more Simpson's references

You just missed my point. Many times women do have to deal with these issues and they don't have access to the kind of stuff I do, and those movies often show women taking control of their lives. My mother and I used to watch them together. They're awful...but addictive.

trace i wasnt calling you a dumbshit for disagreeing with me, just for not knowing what you're talking about. i enjoy an educated differing opinion. you just have no idea, despite it all being laid out before you on this thread by kazoo and spider. when you refer to social equality, we are (I am anyway) talking about access to education, healthcare and the like. Not the cable tv line up and light hearted social terms of endearment (again, if you could see the expression on my face) economic equality-in terms of wages...depends on where you get your information from. there are other economic benefits out there as well, that women havent always had equal access to. politcal equality refers to sufferage just as much as it refers to access to office if you at least agree with these three points in principle, you are a feminist spunk. If you don't then I fully look forward to seeing eri kick your ass up and down the living room. Getting your impressions about feminism from TV is probably not a good idea spunk...

"Spunky, Have you ever been a woman in a abusive relationship?" No, I have been a son receiving abuse from my mother. Unfortunately, my first example of men versus women painted a really bad picture in my mind. I was 3 when it started, and 18 before it stopped. My dad spanked me once. My mom had me on the ground, sat on me, choked me and while she was at it, said "you know what people do when they hate someone? they spit in their face" and she spit in my face and screamed i hate you. sometimes she would stomp on my chest and hand a few times for good measure. So you see, I had to learn that women are the same as men, because my first example did not prove that to me in the leaste.

Okay, I'm really leaving for free beer now (see WAYD). This has been great really. I'll be back next week.

"Getting your impressions about feminism from TV is probably not a good idea spunk... " WHERE IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK 99% OF THE POPULATION GETS THIER IMPRESSIONS ABOUT ANYTHING? There are a few, like yourself and spider and kazoo that do not, thank god. But that is what is being shown the public. That is why there are the problems and misunderstanding that there is today.

Then you can relate. Would it have helped if you'd seen things in pop culture, that gave you a little hope? That let you know that you weren't the only one? Or that there were people out there to help you? I wasn't trying to be condecending, I just think that those movies, as silly as they seem, do not demonize men just for the sake of doing so. NOW I AM REALLY GOING

spunk, so you admit you are comfortable with your idiot box then...both the one you keep yourself in and the one you watch (or not)?

patrick, blow it out of your ass. You obviously do not understand what I am saying.

Damn! That was an AWESOME cage match. And a tag match to boot, with a brief run-in by spider. I think i have to raise Patrick and Kazoo's hands in victory, as they clearly left the team of Watcher and spunky in a bloody heap in the middle of the ring. As the screen fades, we see Patrick standing up at the arena entrance throwing taunts back at spunky, who is supporting his bruised and battered body with one arm and weakly shaking his fist at his arch-rival, patrick. Just count your blessings Margret never decided to run in - that would have been the equivalent of a powerbomb off the top of the cage through the announcer tables. Yowza!

spunk, either you are defending the idiotic masses or your own position....i can't determine. so far you have cited as example of social (in)equality in television programming and terms of endearment. you have cited economic (in)equality with some unverifiable statistic about increasing womens pay 25% and decreasing men's 50%. Who's pay? Who exactly did you contact about this? You at least said you didnt know much about the poltical. you also went on to say that women and men are different because women have periods and give birth and you wouldnt want to spends lots of money studying such differences. you are somehow defending your insane assesments here by citing that this is what "99%" of the general populus thinks because they get their ideas from TV (so do you it as you demonstrate here). So you went from speaking your own mind to that of the general populus. Where exactly have I misunderstood you?

Jesus, Who would have thought I could stir this up by asking simple questions. I'd say more but I have to run.

Is it too late to throw in my endorsement for Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Soap? BODACIOUS hippy crap....

of course not! This Sorabji Steel Cage match has been brought to you by Dr. Bronners Hippie Crap.

What exactly are you bringing the cage out for? I am confused. I do not want to take femenism study classes. I don't think I am in any way superior to any female. I don't like watching WE, O2, LFW, etc. If there are major studies about feminism great! Women do have equal rights in being able to vote, women should not and do not have to be subjected to abusive husbands. A women can choose her own career path today just the same as a man. Give it a little more time for them to work up the chain. The same oppertunities exist for women that exist for men. No, i do not think a gas station attendent should get the same benifits as a machine operator (by the way, when I worked for Byron Valve in Sialom Springs, AR there were women working those machines right along side the men) That is all I was saying? Anything incorrect????

watcher, you truly displayed your idiotic side with that comment. as for the rest of you, i'm so pissed off by watcher's comment on so many levels that i'm going to have to get back to this thread later.

god damn. spider's mind exploded and agatha is so steamin mad she has to take a time out. you two have a way with the ladies, spunk, watcher. the irony is workin on so many levels

I really like Kazoo.

Why don't you love me, Gee? Why won't you answer my questions? Am I too needy? Is that it, huh?

I gave you a big long answer. it's really depressing, though. I think you're really cute. almost as cute as I. :) XOXOXO

Hee!

All I did was express an honest opinion. I did not mean to raise anyones hackles. I would like to know who is paying for Kazoos PhD. And, having looked further at the Womens studies program I still think it is worthless. About as useful as a Philosophy Degree. Someone spent a great deal of money sending you to school and all you are truely qualified to do is teach the subject or say "do you want Fries with that". Again this is my opinion of the Course work and the value of the degree. Not the worth, morals, or anything else directed at the individual working for or obtaining the Degree. So Agatha please relax. I still love you and everything you post.

you have no idea what you're talking about watcher. really. you're truly clueless.

Some people don't understand the value of learning for learning's sake.

some people don't understand the value of living for living's sake. spider. college is about drinking and womanizing. your major is secondary.

:̃

True. But, you should at least be able to support yourself afterward.

are you an authority, watcher? your life choices have brought you wild success, no doubt?

gub'ment drone

Watcher just was wondering what kind of job she would get after graduation, I don't see the point of getting nasty over that.

Thanks J. At least someone around here has a brain.

"At least someone around here has a brain." for someone who spouts off condemnation on college curriculum he clearly has NO CLUE about, i find this statement ironic and typical at the same time.

Kazoo can become anything she likes, Watcher. Lobbyist, writer, politician, social worker, policy adviser, and yeah, she can even serve fries. Education isn't about getting a job, you know. Smart people always find their way.

they do?

Yep.

At least I looked at the curriculum. And, stated my opinion. Now get a BIG CLUE - IT IS MY OPINION. And, it is based upon the curriculum. If you have another show me where I am wrong. Don't just spout off that I am CLUELESS. Defend your possition with FACTS. "If you can't attact the facts attact the speaker" tactics won't work on me. Give me the FACTS to defend your position!!!

what came first -- the opportunity or the exploitation? my observation is that being in the right place at the right time accounts for more success than smarts do.

Maybe you have to be smart enough to follow the street directory to the right place. I think you tend to spend too much time observing, Dave. But that's just my observation.

ow.

I didn't mean to be mean. Sowwy.

would this street directory you speak of show me how to find beautiful and wealthy people to give birth to me?

There are other roads. All this bloody road-analogy clap is reminding me of this Irish joke I heard once. It was about a farmer giving advice to a couple on how to get to a town. He described the trip in detail and then said "but I wouldn't be starting from here, if I was you".

sounds like a mulla nasrudin story.

Is he a whacker?

i'm not sure. he may be a tallywhacker.

A bellywhacker?

"Again this is my opinion of the Course work and the value of the degree. Not the worth, morals, or anything else directed at the individual working for or obtaining the Degree." You might as well have. Basically you are saying that everything that I have worked hard to attain and everything that I care about is worthless. I didn't come here for job training. I came here because this is what I LOVE to do. So if you are going to tell me that this endeavor is worthless, I find that rather insulting. I had a professor once tell us that he believed that the University was a place for the production of knowledge and not a trade school. I still believe that. Besides, everyone knows it's not your degree that gets you a job. It's internships.

Plus, fuck you, you ass.

actually, it's not your degree or your smarts or your internships. it's how you play the game.

all I need is my free government cheese, and I'm set.

it's about knowing that you can have it- you know the non-government cheese- this reality is your own. yours. you made it, and happiness to you if you thought ahead to make something good. it is also about spelling. but this is coming from someone who just cut her finger while trying to cut her toenails with scissors. for the people that don't have a clue- i dunno. just be thankful that you're not one of them. oops. now i'm thinking about spider womanizing.

Hey, Watcher... Not to degrade you or your existence. But, from what I've heard isn't being an asshole the most useless personality traits to have? Isn't it about how you have degraded and abused people since time began? And, you don't "need" to consider other people's feelings to be fulfilled? I have no first hand knowledge of being an absolute dick. But, I think the only thing it could possibly prepare you for is lonliness and social isolation. And, isn't that truley a waste of our time?

"I have no first hand knowledge of being an absolute dick. But, I think the only thing it could possibly prepare you for is lonliness and social isolation." . . .and incredible financial success. the game is a game for absolute dicks.

I like the thought of absolute dick. It really shouldn't be an insult. I would like it more if I didn't have the flu. Man but I'm sick of being sick.

"But, from what I've heard isn't being an asshole the most useless personality traits to have? " useless? shit man, i've none more useful.

I understand an asshole is very useful to some

If my opinion is wrong, again I ask, show me how a degree in womens studies is worth more than a phylosify (I know it's mispelled - it's late) degree. So far I've been attacked by a lot of people for an OPINION on the worthiness of this degree. But, no one has shown one FACT to change my honest opinion. If you don't have any facts to back up your claims than they are no more than UNINFORMED OPINIONS. You are wrong in the opinion that an employer does not look at the course work of a degree. They look for skills and training that will benefit them. So far nobody can come up with one within this program. Interships are great places to hone skills supposedley already learned. And, gain invaluable new skills. But, arguments that these in any way make a Womens Studies Degree worth the effort to obtain one or that it will be useful beyond the college campus are illogical. It has no baring on this case. All I really want to know, if you can answer the question with facts instead of insults, is there anything within the COURSE WORK for the degree itself that could possibly change MY OPINION? Unless you can change my mind through the presentation of facts this is the last I'll post on this issue!!!

"Unless you can change my mind through the presentation of facts this is the last I'll post on this issue!!!" not worth the effort. move along.

I would work to change Kazoo's mind on something. But not yours, Watcher. That's perhaps the best way I can explain how you're wrong.

watcher, do you find the study of history to be worthwhile? would you make light of someone with a master's/ doctorate in history? or, what about sociology? do you find that to be a valid course of study? and incidentally, what sort of degrees do you have, watcher? what informs the position that you are taking?

"Strategic Sentiments: Javanese Women and the Anthropology of Emotion" "The Hormone Replacement Therapy Decision: Women at the Crossroads of Women's Health" "Moral Reasoning and the Patriarchal Order in News Magazine Coverage of the Persian Gulf War" "Common Visions, Differing Priorities, Challenging Dynamics: An Examination of a Low-Income Immigrant Women's Cooperative Project" these are the titles of a few Harvard thesis projects. please tell me that you don't find any of these issues worthy of examination.

i could honestly say that none of those would help you get a job flipping burgers at mickey-D's. my only problem with women's studies is that it attracts militant feminists, both as facility and students. on the plus side, the intro to ws class i took turned me on the the fact that there are many kinds of feminists, not just the militants. the watcher started his AA in business administration at the local community college, but dropped out because he couldn't get through the math requirement. now he's pissed off because he has to work for women. especially uppity women with liberal arts degrees that he can't figure out how would apply to the jobs they do. i've worked with a lot of people who don't have a breadth of learning. in my industry we have a lot of people who can't even shake hands correctly. i can honestly say i'd rather hire a lit major who'd picked up software development skills on their own time than a cs major who can't communicate with adult humans.

Very good agatha. Now we are getting somewhere. Presenting FACTS is a lot better than name calling. I congradulate you. Some of your stuff here sounds very good. So I raise my opinion one level for Womens Studies. Nate, I receved my AA in Data Processing in 1981. It included course work in Business Management and Business Communications. I would hire Computer Science graduates over Liberal Arts majors any day. But, as above that is my opinion and has no hold on anyone else.

oh, just drop it.

Here's an opinion: Your AA degree, watcher, obviously did not prepare you to deal with people in any way. It certainly didn't help your spelling or even remind you of the existence of a dictionary. It also did not teach you how to comprehend and think critically about what you read, as you never addressed Kazoo's real beef with what you were saying. If the ability to reason and argue logically with a firm grasp on more than the immediately obvious is ALL anyone ever got out of a "liberal arts" degree, then they are several steps ahead of you. That's just my OPINION. I'm going to go dig holes. And write about it. That's what my education is all about. Pretty futile, no?

Today is my first day of school. I wish I had something new to wear. I remember how exciting it was to pick out the first-day-of-school outfit.

i love the fact that someone with an AA in "business management" and "business communications" is criticizing someone studying womens studies or a philosophy degree. HA! In the UNC system, my school UNC-Greensboro and UNC-Greenville we're reknowned for such vague degrees, attracting all the block head jocks who didnt get sports scholarships (or slacker potheads with solid 3.0 GPAs) It was an on-going joke that such degrees we're meaningless. Watcher, how much "management" and "communicating" are you really doing? A philosophy degree is far more meaningul than a bullshit "business" degree. Data Processing? wtf is that? How worthy is that for anything other THAN getting a job?

Here are courses I could take at Northeastern U: ENG 3402 - History of the English Language Traces the development of English using linguistic reading and historical documents (letters, journals, literary selections) from various periods and representing a range of styles (formal to informal). Studies changes in the sound system, inflectional system, vocabulary, and syntax of English, as well as the development of prose style. Considers issues in language change: the influence of foreign invasion, relocation, dialect dominance, and literacy. HST 3309 - World War I A detailed analyses of the causes, prosecution, and consequences of the twentieth century's pivotal conflict. From a global perspective, the course will explore diplomatic and political, economic and financial, social and psychological, and cultural, intellectual, and religious aspects of the war and will evaluate the interpretive frameworks and conclusions attached by historians to it. HST 3460 - Life at Sea Examines the role of the individual at sea throughout history and literature. Emphasizes the concepts of shipboard law and authority as well as observations on the notion of the "voyage" and the maturation process. Requires an all-day Saturday field trip. POL 3576 - War in International Perspective Analyzes the causes of war as well as policies for the prevention of war. Considers the changing technologies and strategies of war from both a historical and contemporary perspective. Considers specific past and present wars from an international perspective, and assesses mechanisms for preventing wars. (Hopefully, whoever wrote this will not be the teacher.) PSY 3511 - Advanced Quantitative Analysis Focuses primarily on the use of regression and other general linear model techniques in the analysis of psychological data. Topics covered will usually include: the classical regression model, regression diagnostics, regression with nominal predictors, nonlinear regression (polynominals, logistic regression), MANOVA, and discriminant analysis. SOC 3130 - Sociology of Violence An examination of the roots and consequences of violent behavior in society and in the individual. Topics vary from quarter to quarter, but will include serial murder, massacres, hate crimes, workplace murder, group violence including cults, and mass media portrayals of violence. How cool would these be? But this illustrates one of the reasons I don't go back to school -- in which area would I get my degree? I'm interested in too many of them. I would really like to study war. I wonder if I could design my own program.

I don't recall any potential employer asking to see my course work, either in person or in their job descriptions. They wanted to see my resume which listed previous jobs and what little computer experience I had. Most of my friends who graduate with liberal arts degrees had no problems finding jobs. And no one with a B.A. in history is working as a historian, unless they are damn lucky. Most entry level admin type jobs want good ORAL and WRITTEN COMMUNICATION skills and how to use Microsoft Office. I got my B.A.s in English and Women's Studies. People always asked me why I didn't take magazine journalism (considering I was at one of the supposed best communications schools in the country) or something that would get me a job. I just had no interest in it, and I loved what I was doing. And I knew that could have very well been the last time that I would enjoy my "work." My first real job after I graduated was at a business magazine. It was an editorial assistant position that was the envy of friends who had gone the journalism route. They very clearly wanted an English or other Liberal Arts major who could write and communicate. That job also left me with quite a bit of business knowledge, most of which is on the executive level, but I have to say, the buzz is that corporations want well rounded people, and that having a liberal arts degree is a very good thing in some industries.

I consistently misuse "hopefully." I should work on that.

Spider, There are lots of programs where you can design your own program...kind of. You still have to stay within some parameters. Like American studies or all those other cultural studies programs that let you do interdisciplinary work.

Re: what Kazoo said. I graduated from a liberal arts college with a degree in psychology and a minor in creative writing, and now I work for an online research database maintaining subscriptions and providing low-level tech support. I had no trouble getting this job. In fact, the job description required a business degree, and I got the job.

Dagnabbit. I hear you, Kazoo. My mom's at Northeastern, technically getting her degree in Sociology, but she's designed her own interdisciplinary program to study the Holocaust and genocide.

Oh poor patrick, you're to young to know that Data Processing is the precursor to what is now called Information Management Systems. In my mind the latter is a further example of causing confusion through naming. The former is more descriptive of what is actually done, turning raw Data into useful Information through the use of manual or computerized systems. But, I guess Information Management Systems is a more impressive title for a colleges department head.

watcher, i understand what all titles infer. its still just as meaningless. You dick around with databases for that vast gub'ment agency you work for. you manage beaurocracy. you could almost say that kazoo's studies go one step beyond what you do, because what she does, may lead to explanations as to why people even need your gub'ment agency to begin with. theres a reason people turn to philosophy and religion rather than 'information management systems' or 'data processing' when on their deathbed.

I have always wanted to take a linguistics course, but I understand they're not what I really want them to be. Here is my dream course. I wanted to take this course so bad I was willing to sleep with the teacher to get in; whoever he/she may have been. AS/EN 2270 3.0A (F) COMICS AND CARTOONS I: 1900 - COLD WAR IN THE UNITED STATES Course Day and Time: R 12:30 - 2:30 plus 5 tutorial groups General Description: From the Yellow Kid to Captain America (1900-Cold War) this course explores the growth of comics and cartoons: creative conflicts, contexts and themes (outsiders, war, ethnicity), Bugs Bunny, Superman, superheroes, and Disney, and how they account for their times. During the first part of the twentieth century, comics and cartoons were the most popular forum within which America imagined the conflicts of the time. Familiar, visual, and direct, they invented mythic landscapes, heroes, and stories that were the very vocabulary of cultural self-awareness. From cheeky Mutt & Jeff to Betty Boop, Popeye to Flash Gordon, Mickey Mouse to Bugs Bunny, and Krazy Kat to the "Golden Age" of superheroes, comics and cartoons provide a dazzlingly visual panoramic history of national self-fashioning. In this half-course, we will learn to read and understand the multi-level visual vocabulary of comics and cartoons (from roughly 1900-1950), beginning with the turn-of-the-century newspaper culture and the proliferation of urban, class-conscious comics. We will consider how comics explored the ideological dimensions of everyday life, experimenting with Cubism and Surrealism. We will explore how these texts record the dramas of immigration and assimilation; how they depict the squalor, danger, and excitement of the metropolis; and how they exploit and channel the racism, nativism, xenophobia, and crime-addled despair of pulp fiction, hard-boiled prose, and film noir. One particular focus will be the competition between urban, ethnically-inflected cartoons (of the Fleischer Brothers studios) and Walt Disney's vision of America. Understanding the functions of wartime comics and cartoons (propaganda, narrative "history,"and commentary) will prepare us for our exploration of the superhero, its mythic motifs (the immigrant saga, secret identities, technology and futuristic fantasy, the journalist and the vigilante, and crime), and its female versions (heroic or active women professionals and the "jungle girls"). The course ends with comics and cartoons in the wake of World War Two: a lushly-coloured universe of normality shot through with crime; serenity worried and thrilled by degeneracy, perversion, and social deviance; and a weird crop of early Cold War horror, crime, and sex comics that push "decency" to its limits. As we point the way toward post-war innovations in comics and cartoons, we will consider the effects of censorship on the comics--from the media-sanitizing Hays Act (1935) to the post-war Comics Code (1954)--with its fears of juvenile delinquency and its paranoia about the corrupting influences of popular art. This course will treat the comics and cartoons of the first part of the twentieth century as complex cultural artifacts that make provocative interpretive demands on their audiences. We will explore how comics and cartoons demand their own reading strategies and discover that they constitute a priceless storehouse of fascinating cultural, aesthetic, and political history, complementing and interacting with other representational media and forms. Requirements: One 2000-word essay (30%); midterm examination (25%); informed participation in weekly tutorial discussions (10%); final examination (35%). Reading List: Much of the reading for this course will be provided in a course kit that will be available at the beginning of the term. It will include full and excerpted comics including: The Yellow Kid, Buster Brown, Little Nemo in Slumberland, Felix the Cat, Mutt & Jeff, The Katzenjammer Kids, Abie the Agent, Bringing Up Father, Barney Google, Krazy Kat, Betty Boop, Little Orphan Annie, Winnie Winkle, Dick Tracy, Gasoline Alley, Etta Kett, Donald Duck, Popeye, Li'l Abner, Tarzan, Smilin' Jack, The Lone Ranger, Buck Rogers, Prince Valiant, Flash Gordon, Charlie Chan, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and others. The packet will also provide some relevant background materials. Required readings will also include: John Berger, Ways of Seeing (Viking); Harold Gray, Little Orphan Annie, 1934 (Fantagraphics Books); Robert C. Harvey, and Brian Walker, Children of the Yellow Kid: The Evolution of the American Comic Strip (U of Washington Press); George Herriman, Krazy and Ignatz: The Komplete Kat Komics 1925 & 1926 (Fantagraphics Books); Bruce Levine, et al., eds. Who Built America?: Working People and the Nation's Economy, Politics, Culture, and Society, Volume 2, American Social History Project (Pantheon); Scott McCloud, Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art (Kitchen Sink Press): Superman: The Sunday Classics (Kitchen Sink Press). Class will also be required to view: The Mark of Zorro (1920), Bat Whispers (1930), selections from Betty Boop - The Definitive Collection (1930-36), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937), and selections from Complete Superman Cartoons: Diamond Anniversary Edition (1940) as well as other animated sequences to be announced (Looney Tunesand Disney shorts, for example). Students should look for a complete reading list on the English Department's website before the beginning of term. there's also a W course for after the cold war to present day America. oh. touch me.

AS/EN 2271 3.0M (W) COMICS AND CARTOONS II: COLDWAR - TODAY IN THE UNITED STATES Course Day and Time: R 12:30-2:30 plus 5 tutorial groups General Description: From Road Runner to The Simpsons, this course explores trends in post-war American comics and cartoons: vigilantism, paranoia, national insecurity, normality and abnormality, Peanuts and MAD, the counterculture, R. Crumb, Spiderman, X-Men, and new directions in contemporary comics and cartoons. After 1950, in print, on movie screens, and on television, America overflowed with colourful graphic explosions that encapsulated national moods and dreams, responded to historical events and trends, and supplied a gripping visual vocabulary through which such realities could be understood. In this half-course, we will learn to read the strong lines, bright hues, and lean prose of post-war comics and cartoons, (from roughly 1950-today) to discover stories at once epic and everyday, lurid and genial, "normal" and undeniably weird. We will discover that these works do not always reflect the placid face of a triumphant Americanism, but a culture's macabre fascinations, social anxieties and neuroses, and personal and national insecurities. Beginning at the end of the 1940s with the comic existentialism of Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote, this half-course will explore the turbulent cultural forces that shaped comics and cartoons from the 1950s to today: themes and characters, issues and settings, structures ane conflicts. Starting with some basic training in how to recognize and understand their many levels, this course will consider the comics and cartoons of the second part of the twentieth century as a living matrix of national and cultural debate, speculation, and fantasy. We will follow the transition from the "Golden Age" of the superhero into a period of odd and controversial fixations on the shocking, violent, and gruesome. We will consider how early Cold War national insecurity and panic about "un-Americanism," juvenile delinquency, and moral perversion led to a pivotal crackdown--U.S. Senate hearings and the Comics Code of 1954--and a shift in comics and cartoons. This course will explore how such social control was exercised, what forms it took, and what sorts of deviance it targeted. We will pay close attention to the rise of "normal" and the retreat of strong women back to the kitchen as the formula of familial togetherness asserted itself in various ways. We will consider the crucial role comics and cartoons played in the development of the counterculture in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. We will look closely at works from the "Silver Age" of superheroes to see how nuclear family normality conflicts with individual difference and even freakishness (particularly in Spiderman) and at a range of wittily subversive and psychedelic, "underground" comics (the work of R. Crumb, for example). The course will conclude by exploring the diversity of comics and cartoons in contemporary American society. Throughout, we will interpret the comics and cartoons of the second part of the twentieth century as multi-layered and provocative texts that demand their own reading strategies, treating them as a popular archive of cultural history. Requirements: One 2000-word essay (30%); a midterm examination (25%); informed participation in weekly tutorial discussions (10%) and a final examination (35%). Reading List: Much of the reading for this course will be provided in a course kit that will be available at the beginning of the term. It will include full and excerpted comics including: Batman, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Supergirl, Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, Superman Family, Peanuts, Archie, MAD, Vault of Horror, Crypt of Terror, Richie Rich, Blondie, Dennis the Menace, The Justice League of America, The Incredible Hulk, The Avengers, Spiderman, The Fantastic Four, Thor, The Silver Surfer, The Amazing Spiderman, Little Annie Fanny, X-Men, Feiffer, Fritz the Cat, Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, Mr. Natural, Zippy the Pinhead, Howard the Duck, Doonesbury, Life is Hell, and Ernie Pook's Comeek. The packet will also provide some relevant background materials, including excerpts from Fredric Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent and the proceedings of the Senate Committee that helped bring in the Comics Code. Required reading will also include: Bruce Levine, et al., eds. Who Built America?: Working People and the Nation's Economy, Politics, Culture, and Society Volume 2 American Social History Project (Pantheon); Robert Crumb, R. Crumb's Carload O'Comics: An Anthology of Choice Strips and Stories: 1968 to 1976 (Kitchen Sink Press); Will Eisner, Comics & Sequential Art (Poorhouse Press); Matt Groening, The Huge Book of Hell (Penguin). Class will also be required to view: Snoopy, Come Home (1972), Fritz the Cat (1972), Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988), Comic Book Confidential (1988), Crumb (1995), South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut (1999), X-Men (2000); and excerpts from television shows including: Road Runner, Rocky and Bullwinkle, Batman, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, The Simpsons, King of the HIll, South Park, as well as other animated sequences to be announced. Students should look for a complete reading list on the English Department's website before the beginning of term. I'm just going to have to sit in, is all. that's just all.

Notice that Watcher hasn't commented on the two women (kazoo and Spider) who talk about the great business jobs they got with their supposedly worthless degrees. They presented FACTS which refute his OPINIONS. He's just too much of a PUSSY to admit he's wrong.

Let me mention that I was hired not because of my degree or experience, but because my boss was impressed with my writing skills, which I thank my very good liberal arts college for honing. I spend 95% of my time writing emails that involve long descriptions of problems/solutions, and someone who couldn't write clearly wouldn't be able to do this job. Please do not take the way I write here as an indication of my abilities.

Ps. Gee, why couldn't you take those courses? They sound cool. You should visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. There is a really great exhibit of the work of Arthur Szyk, who was a political cartoonist and illustrator who fled Poland during WWII and went to America to work. His illustrations are breathtaking....such tiny details. Here is a link to some of his work.

That link's not working....try this one.

"turning raw Data into useful Information through the use of manual or computerized systems." like a typist? excuse me, _data entry engineer_. Are all MIS guys dyslexic? Or is there some acronym trick that gets Information Management Systems -> MIS ?

I got lost trying to get out of the library today. That should indicate to everyone that academia is exactly where I should be.

I think you should be in spelunking.

Can I get a job doing that?

Gee, I'd like to take those courses too!!! The Smithsonian produced two excellent books on Comics. One focused on strips the other on Comic Books. I forget their names but I loved them. One other thing Gee, Where's Bloom County in there? Patrick, I think Kazoo got her first job because of her English major not the Womens Studies. After all, those were the skills they were looking for. After that her experience counts more than any degree. And, she has had some vary good work experience. I just think she could benefit more from concentrating her efforts elsewhere. Got to run now!!

"I just think she could benefit more from concentrating her efforts elsewhere. " So could you. Go away.

"I just think she could benefit more from concentrating her efforts elsewhere. " Please tell me how. How could I, Kazoo benefit from concentrating my efforts elsewhere? I'm serious. What discipline would better serve my needs? You have nothing to say to that. Of all the OPINIONS you've given, that is probably the least informed of all of them. You have no idea what my research entails. And it also never occured to you (except to trash the idea entirely, scroll up, it's there) that maybe, just maybe, I wanted to be a college professor, and that I wanted to teach women's studies. Did you ask about my love of writing? My love of research? My love of social analysis and criticism? Of abstract and, at times, incredibly dense theory? About how my best writing is the kind of academics? And about how one of the biggest challenges I put on myself is to take this kind of dense theoretical abstract research and make it more accessible and relevant than a lot of what academia produces? And that maybe the best place to do that is in women's studies because one of its primary focuses is how to bridge the gap between theory and praxis. In other words, it is concerned (unlike most disciplines) about how to produce the kind of research needed to remain within Universities but still have relevance to real live people. Yes, it was the English degree that got me the job at the magazine. But I did do a trememdous amount of writing in women's studies. You mentioned my work expereince. Did you ask about my internship with the women's division of steelabor? About how I helped put together resources for a publication that aims to help unions address the specific work-family issues that women (and men) deal with but that sometimes go unnoticed in the face of wage and benefits bargaining. Do you know why I chose Emory (aside from their big fat endowment, courtesy of coca-cola)? Did you know that the professors here have suggested that I get my JD while I am down here too? That is, if my research evolves that way...which it might, or it might not. Do you think that might be useful? I suppose at any point during this conversation, I could have said "hey, this is what I do, and this is what I plan to do with it." That may have been enough to support the assertion that there is something useful to be gained from a women's studies ph.d. But this isn't just about me. And it isn't just about getting a job. But if that is all you see it as, please tell me what I should be doing, because you seem to know *more than anyone else here) what that's all about. Or is that something that you can't back up with FACTS?

p.s. I shouldn't disclaim, but to be fair, when I said, "In other words, it is concerned (unlike most disciplines) about how to produce the kind of research needed to remain within Universities but still have relevance to real live people." I was talking more about humanities and social sciences, and I was also thinking more along the lines of dissertation level work and tenure track work. But it should go without saying, that university research in biology-chemistry-physics, engineering, computer science, business, law, and yes, even medicine, produces A LOT of stuff that has very little to contribute to the real world. Some of it is total crap. But some of it is important but the real world doesn't have the resources and/or mechanisms to utilize it.

damnit, kazoo. you should have spent your college years piss drunk, stoned and fried in pursuit of some viable degree that would get you out of school and into a nice house, a six-figure income and the arms of a beautiful, blue-eyed woman. just like watcher did.

I miss Humanities!!! it was my major of choice. I wish I were still there. oh, the adventures of the Greek Gods that await me! I can't take that comic book course. All of the courses I'm taking this year are required, and there's no room for one lowly english course. and now I see I can't even sit in on it, because I have TRAVEL AND TOURISM on that day. Damn Anthropology! did you know that Dr. Seuss did political cartoons? I just found his book at the library. I had no idea!

My favorite Dr. Seuss books are *There's a Wocket in my Pocket* and *Hooper Humperdink...Not Him.* I'm actually going to take Watcher's advice now and concentrate my efforts elsewhere...like on what other people are interested in. Gee, Why did you switch?

Please dont bash physics...I'm hoping to major in that in my liberal arts college, and its just as much a result of a love of academia as any philosophy/humanities interest. I'm not saying its better than anything, i'm just saying that people dont simply take hard sciences because they want successful jobs. I really love the study of what is happening in the universe, and it may not turn out to be useful, but like kazoo, i am passionately interested in my subject. For the record, i'm also taking a course called "Myth and History in Latin American Literature" which will probably never be "useful" to me, but its a topic that i know nothing about and am excited to become familiar with. I'm also hoping to take a theater class in scenic design. Registration is tomorrow, so we'll see if i get in. I totally agree that learning for the sake of learning is a worthy pursuit. Its not all about carreer preperation, although that is not unimportant. Its about finding out as much about the world as possible, and hopefully I will continue doing that long after college is over.

I'm not bashing physics. I think that's awesome. One of the editors I used to work with had a Ph.D in physics and he said that it was those classes that helped him to understand more about spirituality, religion, and the various philosophies behind that. And that doesn't necessarily make it better...but I think it debunks certain myths that people have about studying science. Good luck have fun.

yeah kazoo... what the fuck, you should just piss that convoluted, uppity women's studies DISsertation crap in the dumpster and be at DeVry getting your AA in computer graphics or something SOLID like that. Getting a CAREER! Actually a lot of the differing opinions here, even the uneducated ones, has much to do with generational ideals. If im not mistaken, watcher is in his late 40s, early 50s (correct me if im wrong), a baby boomer. This generation had it drilled in their head that you go to school to plan for a career, that you go to college to gain something concrete that will translate word for word into your resume and job. Well watcher, since you don't have children (again, correct me if Im wrong) let me clue you in on the generation baby boomers birthed. We don't always agree that college translates happiness. We wanted more than some technical knowledge or a teaching certificate that transfers, as nate said 6 figures, 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, and a June or Ward Cleaver spouse. Theres more to life than being another link in the chain. Do you know why? We see you. We see our parents. Are they any happier than their parents because they got the BA in Computer Science under their belt and are cranking away 50 hours a week? Not necessarily. There's much more to life than that. Our generation, I would say, is less patriotic than yours, less likely to vote, less eager to be another cog in the wheel. So be it. We have a lot to be disapointed in. maybe we'd like to look beyond just getting that job and making our college "useful" in terms of how YOUR generation sees it. Maybe we want to be a little better than just knowing how to create and manage databases. Big fuckin deal. There's so much more to life. Im willing to bet the grad student eating $1 chinese food and .50 tacos and living in a 1 bedroom apartment while studying their passion is a lot happier than the numbskull cranking out 40 hours week to bring in 40k/year fucking with databases, which have no meaning whatso ever outside those 40 hours a week. Id say kazoo is studying for more than the 40 hour work week which you studied for. No one has a problem with what you have choosen to do, just your uneducated condemnation of what kazoo has chosen to do. Your ignorant assesment that she "could benefit more".

Actually I'm happier than my parents and I'm sure Watcher is too,our parents grew up during the depression.My mothers family sent her out of state to work in the mills when she was 15 she had to pay her aunt and uncle room and board and sent money back home to her mother,stepdad and younger brother.

but that kinda proves my point of the hard-assed insistance on your generation, by your parents, to go to college to get a career, not necessarily an education, but a career. Due to experiences they had, they wanted better for you, understandably, but what people like watcher deem "better" has changed. realize im making sweeping generalizations here as to where someone like watcher might be coming from, and where someone like kazoo might be coming from, its not exact.

Patrick, you're doing the same thing Watcher's doing, only on the other end of the spectrum. Lighten up. Just everyone be happy in your own thing. Hello Kazoo! Don't you look pretty today! Is that a new shirt? You have the best taste. I had to switch to anth. because I want to graduate soon, and you can't get an ordinary in Humanities. figures. they only offer honours degrees, and if I went for that I'd be here At Least another two years. I want to go Now! I already had one anth. under my belt, so it was the easies tot switch to. I'm starting to feel like university classes aren't teaching me anything worthwhile. Nothing I can use to further a career, and nothing I can use to further my intellect. University Life has taught me a lot, and I guess I'm glad I got something for the several thousand dollars, but it's time to move on. Next up: college! did you know that a full year university course costs almost a thousand dollars, here? About $990 for six credits. God forbid you take two three credit courses, because that costs even more. how much did an undergrad course cost you? If you don't mind my asking. and where did you do your undergrad? I'm nosey. I think TRAVEL AND TOURISM will actually be fun. we get to study Disneyland. also, I got a new part-time job today. at the Centre for International and Security Studies. it's an independant research facility at York. They made me take a test.

"Patrick, you're doing the same thing Watcher's doing, only on the other end of the spectrum. Lighten up. Just everyone be happy in your own thing." i disagree. while my sarcasm appears critical, its not. i tend to think i have a better grasp of both sides than watcher does, thats all.

So what's the haps around here? I've been on vacation. Anybody get married/have children/have nervous breakdown/get laid off/get a raise/fall off a ladder/have sex/bake a cake/make a pie/catch a fish/write a novel/etc.? Anyone who would be so kind as to do a quick and dirty synopsis of the last 2 weeks here will promptly get extra points in my book, redeemable at most S&H Green Stamps outlets. Gracias.

also gee...i am the schmuck who does 40 hours for 40k so to speak, so i can criticize. im more in watchers shoes than kazoo's.

Did you get any fish Dougie? It's been fairly calm here,but I did open a bad can of tomatoe paste with my electric can opener and it exploded on me,scared me to death I seriously almost had a stroke.It was in my hair,eyebrows,the wall,the floor just a bigggg mess so I spent about 2 hours cleaning it all up and had to use ketchup in my stuffed peppers.

Yes J, lots of fish. We ate more seafood than I thought humanly possible while there. We caught stripers, spanish mackeral, and bluefish, and dug up Cherrystone & Little Neck clams, and had Wellfleet oysters, and the first night, we both had dual 1.5 lb lobsters at a restaurant. Seafood gluttony and drinking lots of Buzzards Bay beer was what the trip was all about. Sorry to hear about your tomato paste and your ketchupy stuffed peppers (although ketchup sounds like it might work out ok -- how was it? I love stuffed peppers.) BTW, thanks for all the links you sent me, they were great. You've always got mega points in my book.

Thank you Gee. I've had this shirt for a while, but thank you, you are so sweet. I don't remember how much my undergrad credits were. My parents and I just paid for the full-time tuition and it was all one bill and they took care of paying attention to the numbers and whatnot. I went to Syracuse University in New York which is a private university. It's an expensive school but I got a small scholarship and lots of other financial aid. In the end, it was just a little more than U-Mass Amherst offered me which was my financial "safety" school. "Next up: college!" College is next? What does that mean in terms of where you are in your academic and/or professional development?

Patrick, Nothings really changed between the generations. We're all screwed up. My mother was put up for adoption because her family could not afford to feed all the kids and she was the eldest. My father was better off, he went to a private High School and attended one year of a local Liberal Arts College before going off to war. He still couldn't make enough money to only work one job. He usually worked two sometimes even three. Maybe not having kids is an advantage to me. I can remember how we really were. I laugh at the people from my generation who always want to "protect the children" because I remember them as children. You would never close my gob'ment agency. It's liberals like you that keep expanding it. God love em.

Dougie,thank you,J loves you,you are so funny. Send me a fish:) Actually the stuffed peppers seemed to be better with the ketchup than the paste.When I took a shower that night,I had globs of tomatoe paste stuck on my eyelashes.

mmmmm anyway, hows atlanta kazoo? what have you seen? what have you done?

Right now I am in electronic reserve HELL, but that has nothing to do with Atlanta. I really like it here. Sem was here last weekend and we pretty much just ate and went to the movies. We went to Georgia State to see *Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter* which is this little indy flick from Canada. Sem had sent me a link to the movie poster last week saying that's what he wanted for Christmas. Then he was poking through Creativeloafing and there it was. I told him it's a sign. We also saw One Hour Photo. We ate at they Flying Biscuit which was awesome and at the Vortex, which was also terrific. I guess L5P has a biker group here called Bikers for "Bob" and they have a drink named after the Rev. Aaron at the Vortex...so you know that got the Rev. Doktor Semmy all excited. This weekend we are going to see the Without Sanctuary exhibit at the MLKJr. Historic Site. I'd want to see it anyway, but one of my seminars is doing work around it. I think we are going to try Eats this weekend. That is all I can afford outside of my own kitchen this week.

wait, wait, wait. . . there has been a mistake. please read the editors new version of the following paragraph: damnit, kazoo. you should have spent your college years piss drunk, stoned and fried in pursuit of some viable degree that would get you out of school and into a nice house, a six-figure income and the arms of a fun, witty, intelligent, crazy person who likes to paint even if she never does it.

I would like to just restate that Kazoo has put herself into the arms of a blonde, blue-eyed archaeologist. And that would be me. Hah! Suckers! too bad for you! I would also like to say that during the course of my job, I looked up and said: "Hey! look! Dolphins!"

Kazoo, I think it's wonderful that you have found your passion in life. And, I really belive the work you will do will be rewarding. And, probably beneficial. It's the name of the program I don't like. Not that I think womens issues are nonsence. It's just that I remember the history of these Studies Degree programs. They were all started as a cave in to radical sixties groups and to show how "enlightened" the colleges and universities were. Sooner or later these programs will go out of stile. I think it would be best if you did the same work for a different degree. Anthropology, Sociology, International Relations, Law, Health, etc. Any one of these programs that suites the path you have chosen, will in the future, be a more respectable degree than "Womens Studies". Unless of course you would prefer to be thought of as a radical feminist man hating bra burner rather than a serious scholar. I think everyone should find their passion and follow it. And, despite what Patrick thinks, I did. I do not earn a big six figure income. I do not live a "Cleaver" life stile. Nobody does. That's television not real life. My generation is not the one that studied in college just to get a job. We invented the idea of following your passion. And, bringing more meaning to your life. We are the generation of Appocolips Now, Tune In and Drop Out, Love Ins, LSD, Pot, and all that other crap. We invented Rock and Roll. We watched man go to the moon. We protested for Peace. Look it up. It's in the history books. It's even on TV.

Watcher, Just shut the fuck up okay. I've had it. You haven't listened to a word I've said. You are WRONG in every assessment you have made about Women's Studies. You just are. I'm not arguing this anymore, I'm not mad. I'm BORED.

i'm mad sometimes intelligence means knowing not to speak, knowing that what you have to say is NOT RIGHT. i refrained from venting many many unnecessarily mean comments. i was delighted by sem's response. if it's the NAME that you don't like then what's the point of spouting all that other insulting CRAP?!?!? do you not even understand what you sound like? how rude you come across not to mention how clueless? HOW *DARE* YOU SAY THAT HER DEGREE WILL NOT BE SEEN AS RESPECTABLE??????!!!! JESUS CHRIST YOU ASSHOLE!!! sooner or later every STILE goes out of STILE principles, knowledge and truth do not

stile?

thank you heather it's people like you and the rest that make my somewhat thoughtful posts worthwhile in the end

"we invented Rock and roll." The hell you did. You stole it from Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Big Mama Cass. now my generation, we DESTROYED rock and roll. A much more nobler achievement.

Plus, Savannah is beautiful. There are all sorts of old public squares and art galleries and great little pubs. And i just ate at the Vortex again, here in Atlanta. Georgia's cities are pretty nice, what I've seen of them, but I hear the rural bits are utterly different.

yeah, dave. i was trying to work within the vernacular.

i thought you were trying to maybe make some kind of metaphor about connecting pastures. didn't make sense.

GET A GRIP PEOPLE!!!! I HAVE NOT INSULTED ANYONE IN THIS LINE. UNLIKE OTHERS OPPOSED TO MY LINE OF QUESTIONING OR COMMENTS. Heather for instance. True "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speake up and remove all doubt" but the lack of intellegence exhibited by those opposing my postings and oppinions surely must be greater than mine. Especially when all they can do is insult me. Only agatha has replied in an intellegent manor. The rest have been rude, insulting and otherwise ignorant. If kazoo is not concerned for her future - so be it. But, she and everyone else shouldn't take my concern as insulting. But, alas this is what my generation has begot. A new generation of mindless idiots to follow in our footsteps. It seems only fitting. Thank god I was never blessed with children. Why they could only be much screwier then the rest of you. It brings shivers just thinking about it.

You are such a total TOOL. You are so clueless and utterly ignorant of the effects of your statements it's mind-blowing. Thank god we were never cursed with your children. You, sir, are the very definition of rude, insulting and ignorant. Of course, it is futile for me to tell you such, since you are too ignorant of your own stupidity and cruelty to realize this. I now relegate you to the status of "Oatmeal Boy" - one who ignorance and boorishness has reached a level of sheer absurdity. Good day, sir. I won't be discoursing with you again.

Of course the fact I haven't had a cigarett in almost a week, and I'm ready to kill for one, is no excuse for blowing up at you. After all, I should know better. I watched half my generation being shipped off to rehab. While the rest were discovering the joys of Ritalyn. We are one messed up generation. I'm sure that explains why the next generation is, so far, only known for "Is it Boxers or Briefs?".

Boy I wish somebody would have given me ritalyn when I was a kid,my grandson who tested as gifted is on it and I don't think it's helping him at all.

"We invented the idea of following your passion. And, bringing more meaning to your life. We are the generation of Appocolips Now, Tune In and Drop Out, Love Ins, LSD, Pot, and all that other crap. We invented Rock and Roll. We watched man go to the moon. We protested for Peace. Look it up. It's in the history books. It's even on TV." This has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. The "idea of following your passion" ????? Give me a fucking break!!! Yeah all the great minds before you, Nietzche, Sartre, Socrates to name a few were just tooling around doing what their parents wanted them to do. Wait....thems philosophers, writers and educators....meaningless pursuits in your eyes. Admit it watcher, you've never done acid have you. You have no idea, clearly, what its like to "expand your mind" You're the most narrowminded boob around here. If you had a clue about rock n roll you would be saying your generation "invented it". as far as the rest of that nonsense....BAH! Savannah IS a beautiful old town, with so many squares, like DC with its circles. The riverfront is quite nice. I remember the Vortex. They had just built it, right before we left. We ate there once or twice, I was never terribly impressed. The Yacht Club around the corner suits me more. Have you been to the Claremont Lounge yet? Thats a landmark you need to see. Im jealous, I wish I were there. pop fly to left field...i photographed next months Hustler cover model this past weekend. I've now seen Hustler poonani up close and personal in a portrait lense, as meaningful as that is.

proofsheet->nate

Hustler,you must really be getting around and working your way up in the photography world,congrats.

I really like the Vortex, it's my sort of place, especially since it's now the home of BIkers 4 "Bob" and really damn good burgers. we checked out Eats! It was really good. I liked it a lot. The Jerk Chicken was great. The Flying Biscuit though, that's some incredible food. We went to the MLK Historic Site yesterday. It was very sobering. Especially the special exhibit on lynching. It's stuff like this that reminds me why I get really steamed when shitheads castigate people for trying to remind them that America's past is not bright and shining as they imagine it to be. Anyone who can say that after seeing what I saw Sunday has something seriously warped in their heart.

Obviously Patrick has done acid. Otherwise his mind would be working. I keep wondering how long it will be before he turns his kid on to drugs?

yesterday, i thought i read some of the dumbest things on this message board from you. today, you have topped yourself. Thats totally in appropriate you piece of shit. I don't take to insulting your family, id suggest you shut your fucking mouth about mine. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS YOU DUMBFUCK? Since when do you people (dani, czarina), past and present feel its ok to bring my family into the fray? Why? Because I talk about them, you think its ok? You deserve a crack in the jaw for that watcher, you dumbass.

Very little that Watcher has said actually made me angry. When you've heard it all before...well, you get used to it and you take comfort in the fact that you're not as cruel or as idiotic as those who can't seem to realize their own ignorance and stupidity. That made me mad. But in other news, an old man stopped me on the street and gave me a Werther's Original® candy. He noticed that I was wearing a backpack and told me to study hard, get good grades, because I was going to be something some day.

i want to BE that old man with Werther's

You'd probably have dipped it in acid, you careless druggie irresponsible gen-x'er, you.

As usual Patrick shows he can't read. Or he would know I was insulting him. Not his family. Read it again fool. But, I've grow tired of this. I hate having to educate people who should have learned elsewhere.

Patrick, did you really expect someone who doesn't understand how attacking another's passion and life choices (not to mention relegating them to the world of outdated stereotypes) can be insulting to really understand the effect of implicating your family within a direct insult to you? I mean, come on. I don't think I should eat the candy. He was a stranger, after all.

watcher, you are a moron in the worst sense. if you had any clue, if you werent such a complete moron, you would understand that what you said is an insult to me, my wife and my unborn child. There should have been no mention of my child-to-come at all you fuckwad. There is no reason my unborn child should have made it into the sentence in which you were so brainlessly trying to insult me. Watcher, the only thing you pose any educational value for is perhaps birth control and as example that the majority of America is indeed too stupid to vote. No kazoo, of course not....but sometimes i like to beat a dead horse for therapy.

"I keep wondering how long it will be before he turns his kid on to drugs?" My dad shoved acid suppositories up my ass when I was three months old. Does that count? After that, he traded me to a drug dealer for a drink of day old bong water. I'm not bitter, though. At least he didn't brainwash me into being a presumptuous prick fuck.

watcher, you have definitely topped it. there are no words for how ignorant i find you to be.

Even I found that offensive.

I'm going to be that man with the Werther's. Give me 10 years, tops. Watcher, are you doing that on purpose? I mean, to get a rise out of people?

he's too retarded to be so remotely cunning tbone.

No, I'm not doing anything on purpose. I'm going through one of those I'm sick, tired, nicotine deprived, all screwed up and iritated phases. If I've irritated and offended you just think how my wife feels - she has to live with me! And, some of you have taken my most inocent of questions and opinions much further than possible even in my state of mind. For offending any and all of you I appologize. I think I'll just go in a corner and bang my aching head against the wall for a while.

i think everyone's being a touch too sensitive here. bad pr for atlanta.

you just think that because you're a GUY.

all guys smell like bum.

you suffered some serious childhood/playground trauma at the hands of boys didnt you. girls smell like a weird mix between farts and apple juice.

hi Kazoo!! I like you because you make sem happy. I tried to make sem happy once, i sent him a painting. But my painting was not enough, so he had to get a whole girl! equivolent to many millions of paintings! Maybe i should have painted a girl.Hurray! And not to poke at the fire or anything, but i still don't understand what Women's Studies is. Never have. From what you said it seems like it's a sort of sociology/history thing, but with more attention to gender? Like it could be called "Gender Sociology"? I just want to know. please don't hit me. or don't answer, i don't care. And althought Watcher pissed you all off, he's no Oatmeal boy. Wisper hates tension! Sorabji fights are boring.I love everybody. I'm a little fucking basket of joy. I love watcher too, but i forget why. He must have said something funny, and that's all it takes. I even love spunky, even when i hate him. Which i do. But sometimes he makes me think of Hank Hill, and so when i picture him in my head i see scenes from King of the Hill, and i smile. It's the Texas thing, i know. Yes, i do enjoy spunky's company and i hope he never goes away. I hope none of you go away. And watcher, i need a smoke too, thought i'm not up to a week yet. Also, sorry for the lateness of this reply, but i'm moving. Sortof. in closing, i am not drunk. just hungry. p.s. where's Oswald?

Bless you for being you Wisper

bless you too J. sweet lady. I thought of you when i watched the Ozbornes (spelling?). Which they premiered here last night with 2 or 3 episodes in a row. I don't remember because they all blended into one for me. The 'big deal' is that here they're leaving all the swearing intact, which i think is actually a bad thing, because swearing by itself isn't funny or entertaining, but constant lenghthly beeping is hillarious. To me. anyway, i thought it wasn't worth they hype, and oh god but there was hype. Selling posters months in advance for a show none of us can watch without dishes? And people bought them too! Don't get me wrong, i like Ozzy just as much as the next girl but life is boring by itself, and even more boring to watch on tv, even if it is Ozzy. 20min of dogs pissing on old carpets. Rockin'. the end.

oh wisper I meant to get back to you about women's studies. Sociology is only one of the disciplines that is cross listed. And, as I said earlier, it's not just about gender, but race, class, sexuality, and all of that. And it's not just about studying women per se, like reading only women's books in literature. You can do a feminist/women's studies analysis of books by men. I did. And it was good too.

I won't go back to the Womens Studies issue. Except to say that on this issue we all have our own oppinions. And, they are quite varied.

That's what makes the world go round:)

And, according to Watcher, it goes 'round him. :)

I don't imagine that this will convince anyone to change their perspectives on the worthiness of a Women's Studies degree, but one of our graduates just got a job at DePaul university. woo-hoo! She's not the only one, just the latest. And, she got a job in the philosophy department (the OTHER useless discipline), not in one of those cave-dwelling departments. It looks like there may be room for in academia for radical man-hating bra-burning feminists after all.

An old friend of mine took a class in college in Cali called "Introspective into the female psyche". He was hoping to try to learn how the opposite sex thinks in the political world and in the workplace. He was sadly dissapointed. It turned out to be a radical man-hating bra-burning class. I know a few of them myself. It makes friendships hard.

That is just wrong.

I think it is wrong, but kinda funny to imagine this guy sitting in a room full of man haters! hehehe.

feminists are easy.