I just got an email this morning from my old college buddy M. It appears that another old college friend, T., has been charged with molesting 11-year-old girls on the school bus he drives. I'm still shocked by this. T. was always a gentle person, and it's hard to imagine him doing something like this. On the other hand, everyone in our circle of friends knew he had problems with sex (mainly, he couldn't get any). We tried to help him be more relaxed around women and such, but maybe we didn't do it the right way (maybe bringing him to strip joints was a bad idea, but he never went wild or anything that I could remember, and he never drank [he was always the designated driver]). He's never done anything remotely like this. I can't help but think that we as his friends are somehow partially responsible for this. After all, we did try to get him out of his shell sexually and socially. But I think we were his only group of friends, and when we all split after graduation, he was left drifting. It's hard to think about this. Even if it's true, I can't condemn him personally, only his deed. T. needs help more than anything, but he could get life in prison. That would be a very short life indeed. This guy wouldn't last 3 months inside. He's short, out of shape, and socially inept. How do you deal with something like this?

That is so wierd,R. a man who works with my husband sort of, was off work for at least 3 months,he had been in trouble at least twice that I know of,being a trouble shooter for the power company and being drunk and working with high voltage is not a good thing.Anyway we just figured he got busted for dwi,I looked at the court records online,and same thing child molester.We went to the police station and for $5.00 got the police report,he was fooling around with his brothers,10 and 12 year old daughters,and there is another charge for the same thing in pima county.He's been married,has had girlfriends,and has two son's.So even though he is in jail,he gets out 12 hours a day for work release.He was fired from my husdands company,but in a way still works for them as he was hired by a company that s/o's company uses to do contracting work for,even worse,he isn't listed with the state sex offenders yet as he is still serving jail time and hasn't started probation.Here's how you deal with it Sem,it has nothing to do with you,or how you were as a friend.He did something he knew wasn't right and he got caught,he might be your friend but he is being put away for something he deserves to be put away for.One less perve off the streets as far as I'm concerned.

Well put J! As a mother I am in total agreement.They can't put him away for long enough. I have no sympathy.And for a very good reason. What he stole from those children,can NEVER be regained.Those children lost their innocence.Things will NEVER be the same for them again. He will continue to molest.There is no cure for this.I hope they keep him off the streets permanently.But they won't.He'll be back out in no time.Maybe moving into my neighborhood,maybe moving into yours.

I have some sympathy, but it's all for you Semillama. I know it must be difficult for you to try and deal with what your friend may have done. It's nice that you can still stand by him. I'm not sure if I could. actually, I'm sure I couldn't. In this situation it's too difficult for me to remove the Person from the Act. try not to blame yourself. this is in No Way your fault. xoxo

Sem, no offence to you in any way, I consider you a good person and a very good Sorabjite Friend. But I expressed my opinion about people like that to Amanda, a little bit earlier to Amanda on another string. I feel people like that should get the "Drag, beat, and shoot" punishment. Drag them out into a street, beat the fuck out of them, and shoot them in the face." After that leave the fuckers to die. I'm sorry, but in the society we have thats fucking wrong, and its an offence that often times leads to the same thing again. It warps the children to the point that they may do it when they get older. Its a continuing cycle that although it may not happen, the possiblility of it happening has to stop. Sorry Sem for you friend, and I'm sorry ya'll that I freaked out there for a sec, but sometimes the people who commit the worst of crimes are the people closest to us.

It's so easy to just say, "Kill the fucker." It's so easy to see them as not human, and deserving of death. Sem can't deny his humanity because he's known this man, been friends with this man. Sem, don't take the easy way out. "Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil. For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst? Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts it drinks even of dead waters." - Kahlil Gibran - The Prophet - On Good and Evil "Oftentimes have I heard you speak of one who commits a wrong as though he were not one of you, but a stranger unto you and an intruder upon your world. But I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each of you, So the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also. And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, So the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all. Like a procession you walk together towards your god-self. You are the way and the wayfarers. And when one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone. Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot yet removed not the stumbling stone." - Kahlil Gibran - The Prophet - On Crime and Punishment

Antigone,I think perhaps you've overlooked the society the well-worded Mr.Gibran was from.They DON'T play with criminals there. Let me respond to your first quote,from "On Good and Evil".Maybe he should have added this...... "and when its horny,it takes of innocent children". I think Mr.Gibran was speaking on a metaphroic basis,not directly addressing the pedophiles of the world. And please don't include me,[or any other parent], when you suggest this could not have happened,unless we all have it in us. I am quite familiar Mr.Gibrans works,as I have early copies of all,and I'm sorry,but I feel you have quoted him out of context. Are you suggesting that when Sem's friend gets out,it would be a wise idea for him to come and babysit for Sem's children?Because he deserves compassion?Well,you apparently are considerably more generous than I,when it comes to crimes of this caliber.Let him babysit your kids,but he's not coming to my house.

I never said any of that, although I expected you (or others) to react that way. But, if Gibran wanted to be specific, he might say, "and when its horny, it takes of innocent children." Why wouldn't he? You can't dismiss him as simply metaphorical. I believe he said what he said because of the culture he was from, as a protest against it. And, no, of course I wouldn't have this man babysit my children, if I had them. Compassion and practicality do not have to be mutually exclusive. But if I had children and someone abused them, you'd better bet I'd snap their neck if given a chance. It would be up to people with clearer heads at the time to make sure I didn't have the chance. But, back to Gibran. Gibran does include you. Otherwise, what's the point? If you think that this man is "just evil" then you must conclude that there was no way to prevent his actions, no way to help him onto another path. If you fail to at least find out why he did it, understand him in a way, then you doom children in future generations to abuse, because someone like him will come again. Millions like him will come again. So by shutting your eyes to him and saying the solution is to "drag, beat, and shoot" him, you're paving the way for others like him to be created. You might as well be fucking the children yourself.

that last part lays it on a bit heavy, don't you think? there's a lot of horrible stuff done to children in this world. molestation is pretty awful but so is seeing your parents slaughtered, homes burned and being forced to survive on your own in a hostile world. has anyone here seen "grave of the fireflies"? i've been sort of looking for it but i can't find it anywhere around here. if you have, i'd be interested in hearing a brief review.

Unfortunately Antigone,"millions like him" are already here. I work with both ends of this spectrum.Find out "why" they did it?All you have to do is ask them,they'll readily tell you,"it felt good",ask them if they knew it was wrong,they'll readily answer that,too,"yes".Ask them will they do it again,they'll readily answer that also,"yes,I can't help it". Gibran writings were undoubtedly a reflection of the society he lived in.And I am the first to agree,that if a hungry man stole a loaf of bread,to feed his starving family,it is wrong to chop his hand off.I doubt very seriously that Gibran was referring to such heinous crimes,as serial killers,and pedophiles when he wrote that passage. I understand the point you tried to make to Sem,to use compassion when trying to understand what his friend did.But this is an issue,that compassion just doesn't help,it only potentiates the problem."Okay,poor guy,we're gonna let you go,cause we know you're sorry." Then where does he go?Out looking for other children.These people are extremely sick,and there is no cure.Have you any idea,how many times these molesters have been caught,and then set out on the unsuspecting children.Not just once,but multiple times.Almost always,when a pedophile finally murders a child,when his record is reviewed,its shows numerous arrests for this very thing.So,exactly just how much compassion do you think we,[as a society],should show these guys? We just turned one of them loose,at the facility I work at.I was appalled.When I questioned this decision,this is what I was told,"If he does it again,we'll be able to incarcerate him."He'd already been caught 3 times,how many others has he gotten away with?Oh,and then the issue of the one more child.I wonder who the lucky candidate will be. I have never been an advocate of violence,but feel very strongly,that these creeps should all be incarcerated.Build them their own prison,and let them molest each other,all they want.But leave our childrens innocence intact. And thats not even addressing,how the poor victims lives have been altered. Until we as a society stand up and say,"we will not tolerate this any longer" this hidious aberation will continue.

Ok, maybe I was a bit harsh... I propose a seperate solution; The the parents of the kids deal with the person. If in the case it is a parent lock the fuck away with some big motherfuckers who haven't seen a woman in years and let them make the person their bitch. Either way the person violated the sanctity of a small child, I view that as horrible. Yes I realize that more will come and no we cannot stop them, but hey lets at least do something to deter them eh'?

"Okay,poor guy,we're gonna let you go,cause we know you're sorry." You're arguing against a conclusion that I've never even come close to advocating. I say again, you can be compassionate without being blindly so. You can try to understand and connect without letting that be everything. 'We just turned one of them loose,at the facility I work at.I was appalled.' You never said why he was released, just what people said would be consequences of his possible actions. Were there financial reasons? Was your institution not funded enough to house him? Do you know for sure that his release was a case of misguided compassion? 'Until we as a society stand up and say,"we will not tolerate this any longer" this hidious aberation will continue.' Oh, come on! That's a specious argument. We don't have a society that tolerates pedophelia! I'd say, as a society, we do see it as a hideous abberation, and I'm not, in any way, arguing that we shouldn't. What I'm saying is that we should react differently after that judgement is made, that we should take the hard road and find the cause, and not just treat the symptoms. When you focus on treating the symptoms then you end up doing EXACTLY what you despise: You let the fucker go because you can't do anything until a child gets killed. You're helpless until after the fact. If we were more aware, as a society, of what leads to the abberant behavior, then we wouldn't have to wait. That's exactly why we need to be more compassionate. Compassion and familiarity are intimately linked. Sem feels compassion for his friend because he knew him. The reverse can also be true. If you have compassion for someone it's harder to ignore them. You must get to know them because you can't dismiss them. (I'm talking about this in general, and not just in the extreme case of a pedophile.) Maybe if we had a more compassionate society then the social isolation that leads to psychosis would be less common. Maybe if we had a more compassionate society we would have more funding to research the genetic, chemical, and social causes of abberant behavior. But, we're not. We pour more money into punishment instead of prevention because we're focused on vengence, and that focus is caused by a lack of compassion. As long as we don't treat the problem the cycle WILL CONTINUE. Punishment does not solve anything. It's only a temporary stay until the next offender is created. By focusing on punishment we are dooming some children to being raped and murdered. We have the tools to prevent that, but we're NOT USING THEM. The vengence approach has been used for all of human history. It hasn't worked. Humanity still creates psychotic people who prey on our children. Isn't it about fucking time that we take a different approach, now that we can? How many more hundreds of generations do we have to go through before we wake up and stop repeating the cycle?

You're right Antigone.Thats a good plan.I'm getting out my checkbook right now,so I can make a big donation.

Awewww, you're not giving up, are you? What plan? It's just a vague rant. OK. Send your contribution to the SPCA: Society for Practical Compassion, Ass-munch! :-P

I sure hope if I ever get in trouble with the law,that you're sitting on my jury. :) I wish the world was a good and wonderful place,maybe someday.I just hope you never have to hold a whimpering child in your arms,as they tell you of the horrors that were done to them.Sometimes I'm ashamed of being a human.

"And please don't include me,[or any other parent], when you suggest this could not have happened,unless we all have it in us." "Sometimes I'm ashamed of being a human." How can you say both of these things? Why are you ashamed?

Because we realize that there are other sick fucking people in the world who do things because "hey its fun, and who gives a fuck if its moraly right or not." I'm sorry Antigone, but in many cases the preventitive punishment has worked. Or hell lets just revert to the east's way of doing things, "you broke the law, well hell now we just beat the fuck out of you." You know whats funny about that sort of setup, IT WORKS. Now I have broken the law in my life, yes a little petty vandilism here and there, and I don't think someone should be caned for it. There are people on the other hand who deserve a good ass pounding, do you know how long it takes to get to the source and stop things like child molestation? Its not just one cause its hundreds, and you can't stop them all. Make a point, a statement that says "if you do this, we do this to you." I'm not a sick and crule fuck like you think I am, I don't wish violence upon anyone but I belive in an eye for an eye treatment. Sick people who fuck children should have something horrible done to them, not mind treatment, not lockup, something fucking horrible... Antigone do you know what a "chomo" is? Its what they call a person in prison who is a child molester. You know whats funny about that, is if yor are labled a chomo in prison you have no friends, not the guards, not the other inmates. EVERYONE is your enemy you know why, because both guards and inmates alike have children, and even the ones who don't think its fucking wrong. You know what the life expectancy of a labled chomo is in prison? About 2 months at best, why because the little world that exists in a prison society realizes what kind of sick fucks these people are.

I don't think you're a sick and cruel person. What is it with people exaggerating and distorting arguments around here? Fuck. "That setup" doesn't work, Hal. Want to know how I know? Child molestation still exits, even after thousands of years of "an eye for an eye." It exists everywhere, in all societies. Punishment is not a solution. It's not a deterrent. It's an excuse for the "righteous" to ignore the "sinners." Can't we learn something after thousands of years? How long should it take to learn this, huh? I for one don't want our ancestors having this same argument in five hundred years. The strategies and approaches of the past have NOT worked. We finally have the skill, knowledge, and ability as a race to begin changing. We just don't have the will.

Sem, thank you so much for telling us about your friend. As you're a friend of mine and he's a friend of yours, that makes me indirectly related to him. And it's important for us to realise that child molesters are not evil horrible monsters, but people with families and friends. So often that gets overlooked because we need to "dehumanise" the offender. To show any degree of compassion is seen as supporting the crime, almost as if we are afraid to become contaminated. I firmly believe it is our obligation to extend basic human rights to even the most revolting members of society. It's amazing how hysterical people get when child abuse is raised. Sem's friend has been charged, but has not been found guilty and yet people are ready to put a gun to his head. There are many many cases where the alleged perpetrator is just a victim of the hysteria surrounding pedophilia. I have no advice on how to cope with this Sem, except to say that you have always impresed me with your fairness and compassion. I am sure that you will find the right way to handle it, but don't take any blame onto yourself. Your friend may have been a victim himself (an incredible percentage of people who were abused as children will go on to become abusers) and IF he is guilty, he needs rehabilitation, not a lynch mob.

Ok... First, Antigone, I am a reasonable person, so are you. I'm not distorting your arguements twards me, nor am I saying you called me a crule monster. What I'm trying to point out is the causes for people to commit child molestation are far to many to be the focus of us trying to rehabilitate these people. You can't change these things, its impossible. Perhaps I was a bit rash about the whole killing them right off thing, I don't mean the minute someone is accused of being a pediphile that we just up and kill the sob. No the law in America (or at least as it should be) is "Innocent until proven guilty" I still belive that. Second, yes I belive that there are redeeming qualities in everyone, yes even your average pediphile has some. And I'm not saying death is the awnser, by no means do I want someone to die, its not me. What I'm saying is give them a taste of their own medicine. Yes your right, these people are members of our society, the have wives and kids. Yet raise think of this, if the have wives why aren't they fuckng their wives? And those children you immedialy use as a defence agains the human(s) we are scrutinizing here are the very people we are trying to keep safe here. Not to long ago, 5 years to be exact, a friend of mine was caught fucking his little sister. His 6 year old little sister, he was 17. We can't determine a set course of action for people who commit sexual acts against little kids, it won't work. Each individual must me set upon according to that person. I wouldn't think that by sending my friend to juvinile hall he will learn a goddamned thing, and personally my belife that the psyche treatment doesn't do shit. I may be wrong, yes I freely admit that, and I'm not trying to intentionally bait someone into a discussion trap here. Unlike the abortion debate we had, I'm not playing the devils advocate here. I genuinely belive that people who molest small children deserve some form of adverse punishment. I even demand that for a person who I still to this day call a friend of mine. Sem of all people I understand the shocking question of your own part in something like this. In no way can you be held in reguard to anything he did. Nor could I for my friend. The best thing to do is support the person on a level of "I'm your friend." If found guilty remain the person's friend. People do things wrong, thus so need to be punished, I'm not going to give this guy my metaphorical death sentance rant. Punish him, rehabilitate him, and prevent him from doing it again. I'm not a monster, I don't want him killed, but he must suffer some amount of pain for the horror he has cause to some small innocent child who has to live with that the rest of their lives. (This is assuming he is found guilty.) OH!!! And I'm sorry about ranting.

Antigone,I think you would argue with Jesus Christ if you could get him to listen to you:)Child molesters can't be cured,they are compelled to act out and molest children,they can't stop themselves.So being locked up is the best way you can help an innocent child.

Im not sure you can make that conclusion J. Childeren get molested by many people with many different problems. Im not sure its so simple. Cat pointed out something critical here, he hasn't been found guilty. In a way, our society almost promotes pedophilia....17 year old Brittany Spears dancing in tight outfits, crotch shots, tight skirts and so on singing pop tunes to the masses....porn mags that specialize in the "Barely Legal" "Just 18" and so on.....the Jon Benet's are everywhere. Fucked in the head parents making their childeren sex objects before the age of 10. Its a very fine line, that no one likes to acknowledge. We always claim to do everything "for the children", we always take the high road when it comes to protecting the children...but do we really? Im not so sure. Sem, thats pretty messed up....perhaps its best to be supportive of your friend, not his actions, and reserve any judgement on his actions and character after the testimony and ruling are out. I don't think there is any law that says you can't be friends with a convicted criminal....as someone said above, its very easy to dehumanize the victim, the enemy, the monster. And antigone hit somethign when he spoke of familiarity and compassion. If you had just read a story in the paper of the molester...you may react "hang em by his balls!" but if it were your uncle or cousin...you may not be so quick to say such harsh words. In other words, familiarity may be a tool to help deal with situations like this with a more level head...yes?

Wow. Full spectrum of opinion here. Pretty much what I expected, except I gained a lot of insight about the situation. I just hope this doesn't turn into a witchhunt for him. It may even turn out that in fact he's just the victim of a cruel prank (it's been known to happen). However, if not, well. I am very aware of Hal's point about "chomos" as well. What's the worst about this (for me at least) is that if he is convicted and goes to prison instead of treatment, then in all likelyhood my friend is a dead man. I hope to god he gets a good lawyer. I'll have to raise this issue with the other friends still in Detroit, maybe they can help. This has been an interesting view into some deep reaching issues. I'll keep you posted on this. Thanks all.

This most likely has been said already in this thread, but... If the man molests 11 year olds, it is because he wants to. You cannot be responsible for it in any way. Do no feel responsible. You took him to see adults in the strip bar, not kids. I don't agree with the train of thought that it is a sickness, it is not. It is a choice. If he did not do it, then stand beside him because no one else will. Anytime anykind of allegations of this type are made against someone, you are already judged as guilty and your life will never be the same, even if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you did not do it and the accusor swore it was all made up.

Antigone,I am ashamed sometimes to be in the same species when I see/hear some of the atrocities performed by my fellow man. Interesting little article I read 2 days ago in the paper.A man kidnapped,raped,tortured and then murdered a 10 year old boy.Then he chopped the child up,cooked him,and served him as dinner to his neighbors. My references to incarceration,are not with punishment in mind.These people are sick,they won't learn their "lesson"by being punished,because they can't help what they do.My desire to see them incarcerated,is as a saftey net.If out in the general public,they will molest again.Being compassionate is fine and dandy.But I have heard very few here speak of compassion to these innocent children. Sem,I don't know if your friend is guilty or not.But from the little you said about him,he seems to fit the pattern.These people put themselves into areas where there are children.That is how they get off.They have no concept of the harm they do these innocent children.That is everlasting damage.Didn't someone post earlier about waking up when she was 6 years old,to find her stepfathers penis in her mouth?How lovely.What a warm and happy childhood she must have had.Lots of fond memories. This is a debate that is not worth continuing.There are some very sick individuals out there,preying on innocent people,and shattering their lives forever.Pedophiles,stalkers,rapists,just waiting for you and me and our loved ones.I personally would prefer to have them locked up,at least that would keep some of them away from their potential victims. As for the reason the patient at my facility was released,it was because he didn't meet our critera.We only accept people in acute psychosis.He came to us cause he didn't want to go to jail,and when it was determined that he wasn't psychotic,we released him.So now we wait.For the next innocent victim to come forward.There will probably be several molestations by this guy before he is caught.Because these guys are slick.They know what to tell children to keep them quiet."If you tell,I'll come and kill your mommy and daddy".Kids believe this,and keep quiet. I'm so glad that you can be so compassionate.Maybe you could come and spend some time with me,while I have to listen to one of these poor broken babies sob out their stories.

For the record, nothing in T.'s past behaviot that I know of would have pointed to this. For someone who is so sexually unconfident, he's very oriented towards grown women. I've seen him around kids plenty of times and there was never anything that was inappropriate. Maybe that fits the pattern too. Of course, I am sorry for the children, but that doesn't change anything. I don't know them. I know T. I can be horrifed by his alleged actions, but still feel for his situation.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't incarcerate offenders. We certainly need to lock up people who commit these crimes! What I'm saying is that incarceration is not a solution, just a patch on the problem. You could kill every sex offender and it would still be just a temporary solution. You could kill everyone they're related to and it would still be a temporary solution. Eventually another one would crop up. We need a more permanent solution. But the very attitudes present in this discussion make it unlikely that we'll find one: the problem is too difficult, these crimes are a choice and have no predictable/controllable cause, we should just kill them and that will be enough. No problem is too difficult. Sure, at this moment, we don't have a solution, but we must start somewhere. At this point what is necessary is for attitudes to change so that it's possible for enough resources to be thrown at the problem. To make that possible, more people need to accept that a large portion of behavior and personality, both normal and abnormal, is physically based. The acceptance of Prosac and other high profile antidepressants is making that happen, to a certain extent. The further acceptance of sexuality, specifically homosexuality, as a physical state (not a choice) is making that happen. So, where does compassion come into all of this scientific claptrap? Well, in this century we've seen several examples of societies trying to change their members terrible ways: Nazi eugenics, the Khemer Rouge killing fields. As a race we are capable of these acts. Just think of how devastating these acts would have been if the perpatrators had more powerful methods to change their populations? What does that have to do with pedophiles? What if someone discovered a genetic trigger or triggers for predatory sexual behavior? Would it be accepted as a solution to the problem? At this point I think it would, but for the wrong reasons. Because of the vengeful attitude towards offendors the solution would be accepted without society thinking through the consequences. Who wouldn't accept a scientific breakthrough that proptected our children? But the consequences are vast and this solution must not be used in a vengeful way. Anyway, I've wandered way off into abstract speculation... And I actually have work to do today.

did you play with Tonka trucks and erector sets, or legos and lincoln logs antigone?

All of the above. And imaginary friends, new age religions, explosives, mild hallucinagens, matches, musical instruments, lawn mowers, comic books, stray dogs, recumbent bicycles, star wars action figures, wooden martial arts weapons, and my favorite cat Bill. Not all at once, mind you...

Another good plan of your's Antigone.When folks go in for their anual prostrate check,we can have em bend over and cough,and then have a little peek at their genetic code."Sorry Bud,you'll have to step over to the euthanasia line". Shall I get my checkbook out,again?

I'm sorry antigone, but this is the kind of behavioral thinking that led to some of the atrocities of or society. EXAMPLE, nazi's well hell we don't like the way these people look or act, lets change them. Antigone you can't change a whole group of humans into thinking something is bad without something really heavy. Example your saying that we need to work on a super solution, it can't happen. For the third time I'm going to say this, there are so many causes of child molestation that attempting to stop it by compleatly eraticating the problem at the source would well to put it lightly... DESTROY CIVILIZATION. But then again maybe I'm being a little bit harsh.

I've been biting my togue on this discussion, but I do need to speak up. First off, Antigone's points are well taken. Hal, there are many causes of predatory sexual behavior, true, but we know what some of the primary ones are. Not all, but certainly some. And it is true that a lot of what causes a grown man (or woman) to have sexualized feelings (not behavior, but feelings) towards a child, is determined early on. Some of this is biological, whether that be genetic, or a result of brain chemistry, and some is a result of experience. Many predators were abused or molested as children. Add to that societal factors, the way children are sexualized younger, and what they are exposed to as well. None of this excuses behavior, but it does explain some of the sources of it. I in no way condone predatory behavior. I work with children who have been the victims, often at a young age, of such acts, and I find the acts reprehinsible, and curse the perpetrators for what they have inflicted on these children. But compassion is also a part of my job. I could not help these children without it. And that's where I have a problem with some of what both Hal and Czarina are saying. I can think of two children I have worked with recently, both of whom present with a sex offender profile. One has engaged in grooming behavior with his peers. The other has done things such as expose himself to peers. By definition, the second child has offended, while the first could be on that road. Should both of them be locked up? Strung up? One is ten, the other eleven. Both have suffered abuse at an early age that I would wish on no one. Should we have compassion for them? Or brand them as offenders and write them off for life. Offenders can be treated. They may always have inappropriate sexual feelings, but they can learn to have some control over these feelings, rather than be controlled by them. The most effective treatment is group therapy, where the facilitator and the group members break down thinking errors, rationalizations, minimizing and the like. I know people who do this treatment and do it well. Finally, in response to Antigone's posting of the lines from Gibran, I agree that they are relevant. While we may not be individually responsible for the evil actions of another, it is incumbent upon all of us to bring good to the world.

Clarification on my statement yesterday, the act of molestation/sodomy itself is an act of will, feelings of attraction towards the younger ones is not. You can control what you do, past the age of 4, but you can never control how you feel. You cannot and should punish anyone for feelings, only actions.

Well, my friend got bailed out yesterday, but not before he had been beaten up prettry badly by other inmates. Apparently, somebody on the outside got word to these guys about what he is accused of doing and they wnet after him. He told my friend M. that his vision is still blurry but he's doing ok. He has gotten a good lawyer, who tells him that there will likely not be enough evidence against him to go to trial, and his lawyer is "going to raise hell" in his words. He also said that he and a couple other inmates had been reading the bible, which was helping him cope with this. Isn't it interesting that in America, you can be punished just for being accused of a crime?

I hate the idea that someone can be put in jail based on an accusation, with no facts to back it up

a few random thoughts... society gets so spooked by the pedophilia charge. say the phrase "child molester" & watch people go into fucking hysterics. it's ridiculous. children often lie. there have been quite a number of cases in the past decade when it's been proven beyond doubt that the children in question lied. however, even that fact can't wash the stigma of child molestation off an innocent person who's been caught up in the witch hunt. when i was in high school, a fellow student was accused of fucking a 3-year-old. suddenly everybody wanted to hunt him down. people were trying to kill him. it was not proven that he did it. it was not even proven that the 3-year-old in question actually existed. somebody just said it one day on the school bus & suddenly the whole county was in an uproar, making noises about lynching him. especially the adults. however, i can think of the middle-aged couple who drugged me, tied me up & fucked me when i was a kid, or of the senior citizen who got his sexual kicks on me when i was quite small (& i was terrified), or of the guy who used to put on frightening halloween masks & fuck around w/ me when i was a pre-schooler. he'd come over when my folks left me at home alone, which was a very frequent happening, & informed me that if i told on him, he'd kill my family & pets. where were all these "concerned" adults then? oh, that's right. they were NOWHERE. let a suburban kid get patted on the head & everybody screams molestation. let a poor kid in a crappy neighborhood get fucked in the mouth & nobody gives a shit. people around here recently got into some kind of high moral outrage when a so-called "child molester" was being released into the area. well, they've gotta live somewhere, folks. your neighborhood's as good as any. matter of fact, there are creeps in EVERY neighborhood, so why go into hysterics over the ones you happen to know about? how about watching your own fucking relatives, since the largest pool of child molesters tend to be related to the kid in question? here's a weird situation: i had 2 friends debating a certain issue. one of these women, cindy, knew a man (close friend of hers) who was a serial molester of little girls. he was about to go to court, having been caught at it after many years. he also had a 12-year-old full-time (voluntary) lover in addition to the younger girls he screwed. cindy was called upon to testify in court. she was willing to perjure herself because you don't fucking rat out your friends, regardless of what they do. a friend is a friend is a friend. loyalty is everything. but my other friend told cindy to go to court & speak the truth or a lot of young girls were going to get hurt. it was an all-night debate that never reached a final conclusion. in this case, it was actually proven (& well-known) that he did what he was accused of. everybody thought cindy was horrible to not jump at the chance to turn him in. but a friend IS a friend, right? you don't betray your friends no matter what. personally, i would've gone to court & told what i know. then again, i don't fancy hanging out w/ known childfuckers. but there was something almost dementedly touching about cindy's loyalty. she was a street kid herself & had street kid ethics. you don't rat out your friends, regardless of what they do. anyhow, i think that cindy was eventually persuaded to testify & the guy's in jail now. as a postscript to this particular case, isn't it a fucking howl that none of these outraged parents saw the warning signs? they sent their little girls to spend the night w/ a single man (a dance instructor) who lived alone & insited upon NO CHAPERONES of any sort. he proclaimed it to be his night w/ the little girls & no other adults were to be around, so they could experience "bonding". he had tons of little girls spending the night in his home. then he'd have slumber parties, again w/ the "no chaperones" clause. people packed up their little girls' best nighties & frilly panties & sent them right over. people sent their little girls to him year after year. but no, the folks can't be asked to take any responsibility for this.

Good God Crimsom!!!!!! You have been through the fire and came out bronz,you must be a strong person to have made it out with your sanity.The dance instuctor,oh yea if the parents didn't see that coming they must be absolute morons,that's why I had my kids in Indian Guides and Indian Maidens,you and your child go together in All activities.But what if Sems friend is not guilty,your right about kids lieing,I remember reading about some daycare operator in California,who was innocent,but her life was ruined,then again I read in the paper today A woman in Indianapolis who operated a daycare center in her home was accused of molesting children in her care and offering them to her boyfriend sexually for $200.LaDonna Tucker,40 was arrested after the boyfriend tipped police and let officers tape his phone conservations with her.In those calls,she talked about performing oral sex on both male and female children.She also suggested that boyfriend Melvin Ridings,41,could perform sex acts on any child he desired if he were to "arrive bearing gifts." Eleven children-all age two or youngher are being examined for signs of sexual abuse.She recieved her state day-care licence in November.All I have to say is,I'm glad Melvin did the right thing.

what do you guys think of Meghans law? You think the public should be notified when a released convicted child molester is released in your area? i think this spawns withhunts and can seriously put someone who has gone through rehabilitation back to square one. recently here in metro LA, this happened....the man had to leave the state. i totally aggree with crimson about the sensationalism attached to child molestation. and how ofeten innocent people's lives can be ruined even though they may have been found not guilty of such a crime.

i think megan's law can be a potentially dangerous thing. OK, i understand why such a law would exist. i understand what the parents are saying here, at least in principle. but if society has agreed to NOT execute known pedophiles, then it stands to reason that said pedophiles have got to live somewhere when they're released. and then the witch-hunt starts in earnest. "not in MY neighborhood!" these sanctimonious shits start yelling to high heaven. well, if not in your precious suburban neighborhood, then where? where are they supposed to go, exactly?

They usually have to live with their familly,I had a guy in my neighborhood 2 blocks down my street,I never bothered him,but maybe someone did cause he doesn't live there now,but I think it's good that you can go online and look.My friend Lana has left Ohio and is going to shack up with a sex offender in Virginia,no shit,she had me look him up and he was charged with aggravated sexually battery,that's all it said about him besides his address. I couldn't believe it when I told her about it,she said she was going to go anyway,I haven't heard from her since then.She's fucking nuts.

fucking nuts doesn't even begin to cover it. i understand why people might want to have access to a database of criminal sex offenders. when that information initially began going online, a lot of arkansas schools discovered that quite a few of their personnel (bus drivers, teachers, etc) had serious records as pedophiles, rapists & more. especially the bus drivers, for some reason, who also tended to have an unusual incidence of drug-related offenses. most people seem to have this absurd notion that pedophiles are the "ugly" people in society...the homeless, the neighborhood drunks, the old hippie down the street who dresses funny...all this, while simultaneously worshipping the "beautiful" people--such as dance instructors, scout leaders, youth ministers, junior athletic coaches & the like, all of whom are grown adults but seem to have some kind of lingering weird obsession about hanging around kids. hint: even adults who really groove on kids will only want to be around them for so many hours per day. sane adults, by their very nature, tend to seek out the company of other adults. they'll do adult things, think adult thoughts. on the other hand, the people who live in a 24-7 kiddie oriented world, whose entire scope of activity is planned around the doings of other people's children...THESE are the folks who just scare the bejesus out of me. you know the type. happy, smiling glad-handing bastards who just looooove children & must be surrounded by them at all times.

I disagree with Meghan's law. I understand it, but it is wrong. Period. Invasion of privacy. Make the guy go to theropy and check with a parole officer once a month, have the parole officer check on him/her, whatever, but don't make the man go door to door telling everyone what he has done. They don't do that to arsonists. They do not go door to door telling everyone that they torched an old ladies house or school, they don't make auto thieves go door to door, or even murderers who get out on parole. While being a sexual predator is probably the worste thing you can do (yes, even worse then murder), the man/woman did pay for his/her crime. However, this is where I do not think third strike and you are done is not such a bad idea. I think even a second time should warrant life without parole. A sexual predator is a dangerous person whom prison cannot change. Only treatment. And publically humilating him will not alter his behavior. But as a parent of two girls, I honestly don't know. I never leave my girls with a stranger, and I think I could sense if something is wrong with the guy. If he always brings gifts for the girls, touches them too much, stares at them, whatever. I try and teach my oldest to not talk to strangers, the bus drops her off right in front of my house, I don't take her to dance class and leave her there, I dont even let her go to the restroom in public without at least escorting her to and from the bath room. And I will teach her to be safe when she is too old for me to do those things. A parent must assume responsibility for their child's safety. This goes right back to parents not paying enough attention to their kids. Letting their children run free in the neighborhood, all over town, or spend too much time at someone else's house. But, if it was a bus driver or teacher, or pastor, or family member, or family friend, who's to say? But in most of those instances meagan's law will not apply. You will already know. Laws are being used constantly to deprive us of more and more of our freedoms. But, in the instance of Meagan's law, convicted fellons no longer have the same rights and freedoms as the rest of us. Maybe the constitution does not apply to them, I am unclear. It just seems wrong. They paid their dues, or did they? Can they give that child their innocence back? Can they undue what they have done? Can you ever give back what you have stollen? Can you bring back to life what you have killed? Can you ever return someone's personal things that you burned? Time in prison does not return these things. What they have done will never go away. It will never be easy for the victim, so should it be easy for the convict? Do they deserve the rights and privledges as the victims, if the victims are still alive? How about when their victims become the vicimizer's themselves? How much evil did this person unleash? Do they deserve peace? Yet another question that may never be answered.

The Constitution applies to everybody.

"They don't do that to arsonists. They do not go door to door telling everyone that they torched an old ladies house or school, they don't make auto thieves go door to door, or even murderers who get out on parole. " Yeah, but SHOULD they? ((again, the nebulous "they"..)) Trace: Warning. I'm an arsonist, and generally a very not-nice person. Especially since I'll be hung over tomorrow. And: I'm also flying into MCI tomorrow. I'll arrive at 10:11pm. You gonna meet me there, or do I hafta walk to your place?

If you are an arsonist, I am afraid you will have to walk. And antigone, no it does not. Not all of it. Convicted felons cannot vote or register fire arms. I am not sure what else since I have no personal experience in the matter.

My oldest daughter is a convicted felon,when she was on that meth,5 or 6 years ago she and her creep of a boyfriend at the time had asked a man for a ride they had met at a 7/11, he gave them a ride to their apt.He started coming around every so often,mind you they were both complete low lifes at the time and the man turned out to be a narc.He came by one day wanting to buy some weed,and she took him to some peoples house and he scored some weed.She accepted $20.00 for taking him there.To make a long story short,a year later she got busted for it, she had finally got off the meth and they came right to her place of employment and busted her right there.Any if she would have accepted the plea bargain(like I told her to)it would have been a misdomeaner,but she fought the law and the law won.Anyway about the only kind of job she can get because of her felony is tele-marketing.Once your a convicted felon it's hard to get a good job.I still can't figure out how R got one so easily.

Treatment of convicted felons is a states' rights issue. Many states prohibit gun ownership an voting. Here in Massachusetts, incarcerated felons were just disenfranchised through a referendum vote. Once freed, they regain their rights to vote. I do have issues with permanently disenfranchising anyone. J's daughter is a perfect example. I don't know what the laws are in AZ, but for someone young, who fucked up and has taken their lumps, should they be denied the opportunity to reenter civil society? At what point is someone unredeemable? While I don't like it, I can at least see the case for taking voting rights while someone is in prison. They've committed a crime, and disenfranchisement, for better or worse, is part of their punishment while they serve their time. But what if their time is five years, and they're only twenty five or thirty when they get out? For the rest of their lives, they can't vote for offices as lowly as dogcatcher? Wouldn't that discourage rather than encourage someone to re-engage with society?

You have some valid points. I did not write the laws, nor did i say i agree with them. I was just stating what the law says. People can change, and I for one do not beleive in putting anyone in jail for posession of a controlled substance for personal use. I think that is an invasion of privacy and infringements on their rights.

Trace...i think.... i think.... you're becoming one of US!!

Next he'll be voting for Nader. Good points though.

Nader had some good ideas, but too radical for most people, and you have to please most people to become president, or at least that used to be the case. Personally, I liked Forbes.

You have to tell the most lies and be willing to sacrifice your family life and betray whatever ideals you had and suck up to the right people to become President of the United States. There should be a lottery or a beer drinking competition or arm wrestle for the job. It's the only chance of getting a decent human being in the Oval Office. Those who nominate are, in my opinion, unacceptable candidates.

Cat----I agree with you wholeheartedly. I voted for Nader---but I admit right out of the box I'm way too radical for mainstream society..... If there was one conservative who had it over Forbes it was Dick Lugar, back in '96...he wanted to do away w/the Federal Income Tax....and you know what? Legalize drugs & prostitution and you could carry that off TOMORROW. Not that George Dubaya will, or Al Bore would have.... All of which is neither here nor there... I just latched onto this thread yesterday. sem, fachrissake don't blame yourself for any of this....I hope your friend didn't do what he's accused of....but if he did....it's NOT YOUR FAULT. The whole time you were trying to bring this poor bastard out of his shell(ASSUMING he was guilty) he may have known exactly what was IN his shell and must have been hiding it from you... I've got more to say but I'm stopping here for now----

For me, I am ready to give up politics. You cant trust the democrats or republicans, and neither one will step aside for a third party canidate. We are going to be hard pressed to find one that can give either side a run for their money. One thing the American People have proven is that they are afraid doing something to make changes, they just want to bitch about no one else doing it. But hey, how about that Rev Jackson???? While he was "counseling" Clinton on the Lewinsky thing? Who was counseling whom? Pug is right, Cat. Either way you have nothing to feel guilty about nor are you to blame if he did do it. Thank you for trying to help someone. God knows we need more people like you. I have been mostly wrong about everyone here, and I am sorry. Your points of view make lots of sense when you sit back and think about them.

I am afraid you're wrong again about me, Trace. Except, of course, for your excellent observation that we need more people like me ;) It's Sem's friend who is facing pedophilia charges. I think my friends are just your usual run of the mill criminals. Touch wood.

That's ok, I did not much appreciate the fuck wit remark anyway

Let me correct the horrid mistake: Pug is right, Sem. Either way you have nothing to feel guilty about nor are you to blame if he did do it. Thank you for trying to help someone. God knows we need more people like you.

Back on the thread.... Damn, this is heavy stuff and I realize I'm jumping back onto a subject after most people have moved on.... This is one of those subjects it's hard to be objective about.....even moreso than abortion, gun control or whatever----it just lends itself to extremes. Sem's coming from a standpoint where he's like, hey, wtf? I knew this guy---he was a little off, but where the hell did THIS come from???? I don't blame ya----it would do a job on my head, too. Czarina sees the damage...it's always in her face and she deals with it on a day-to-day basis. If I were in her shoes it's conceivable that I'd react the same way. Crimson and I are about 6 months apart in age, both pushing 40....(39, actually) What she's experienced in our lifetime in this age is probably due to the unenlightened areas she grew up in...and residual shit from her elders. Any of you who are older than us may get what I'm talking about....my parents are in their 60s....for them, there was a whole big thing about, "that's ugly....it doesn't happen to nice people....we'll sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen..." and you have to wonder, after generations of Denial, how screwed up are we as a society? How many buried injustices? I'm hardly objective on the subject....molestation has happened to my friends and to multiple generations of my family....there are plenty of people who I'd like to just take and wipe away their tears & bad memories----unfortunately, I can't. I have an Uncle who raped & dismembered two little toddlers....that was his wedding present to my parents, back in 1957. He's in prison for the rest of his life and I don't doubt he deserves to be....another horrific product of a system of denial....he was in & out of reform school as a kid---did anyone see the warning signs? They tried to pretend they weren't there. Someone very close to me was messed with by a guy whose guts I will hate forever....not that I need any incentive to do so. It wasn't JUST that he tried to violate her....it wasn't even the disgusting, underhanded way in which he did it. It was that after he was confronted with it, he freaked out....."You're trying to make me out to be some kind of a PERV????!!!! Give me 5 minutes alone with her...just 5 minutes....I'LL straighten HER out!!!!!!!!!!!" Oh, yeah, RIGHT.....like we were going to let THAT happen. But what our parents missed---what in cases WE missed and what is very prevalent NOW, is that we live in an age where people deal with these things directly. And we live in this information age....where EVERYTHING is in your face. People have often asked, is dysfunction more prevalent these days? I don't think it IS----it's just that now people are allowed to TALK about it. Of course, when you're confronted with things like kids lying about being molested....that's ALSO a by-product of our information age....

so many fucked up things happen in this world that it could almost be argued that it's the whiny fucking victims that are the real problem. one person's opportunist is another person's nightmare. whaddaya think, nate?

I think Antigone brings up a VERY IMPORTANT POINT, though....not only concerning this particular issue, but with the way we, as a society, deal with many sociological/political problems or what have you....I think it behooves us as a civilized people to TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE and to THINK THINGS THROUGH instead of just instantly REACTING....and when I say that, please understand that I'm not bagging on anyone for having strong feelings on the subject or not being angered by what they've seen or gone through. Answers and Solutions AREN'T easy and fast in coming....but that doesn't mean that they aren't worth it. That's part of Societal Denial and we need to understand that. There are two running mentalities as far as solutions to any problems go...you've got the mentality of PREVENTION and the mentality of CURE. CURE is more popular than PREVENTION. It's the quick fix. It's the solution that says, if you're sick, go to a doctor---as opposed to taking steps X, Y & Z to PREVENT yourself from getting sick. I see it at work all the time....a machine breaks and so you put a little band-aid on it...because production can't stop and you have to keep the numbers going. So shit breaks, gets a band-aid and breaks again later. It would make more sense to not just fix the problem, but fix the PROCESS----so that this mishap might not happen again....but that might get in the way of Production. That's the way we deal with EVERYTHING in this society. And I don't pretend to have all the answers....but even an idiot can see that the method DOESN'T WORK.

And sometimes those victims are justified in whining. Sometimes it's all they've got. Sometimes they don't even have that.... One thing I'D like to know (and Czarina might be able to shed some light on this one) is I've read discussions seesawing back & forth, here. Pedophiles can't be cured. Then someone else talks about rehabilitation. Back and forth, back and forth. It seems to be the conventional wisdom, tho, when I talk to Mental Health Professionals & students of the trade that Pedophiles are Pedophiles for life, and there IS no cure. I would REALLY LIKE TO KNOW the hard science behind that, if there is any. I'm fond of telling people "Truth is Dead"---in other words, everyone has a 10 cent statistic to prove themselves right....but I'd REALLY LIKE TO KNOW the hard science behind that....if there is any....a few hundred years ago, hard science told us the world was flat...a hundred years ago, hard science paved the way for a generation of molesters to perv on their daughters and thanks to Freud and psychoanalysis it was all conveniently swept under the rug. But as much as hard science can tell us ANYTHING before moving up the next evolutionary rung, IS Pedophilia incurable? Because if so, it's a pretty bleak prognosis---for pedophiles, for their potential victims and for all of us. Back about a year and a half ago I was staying with my girlfriend in Albuquereque,NM....we were out on a road trip and she showed me this shitty little church in the middle of nowhere and told me it was the Something-Something Paraclese----she & her friends jokingly referred to it as "The Parakeet". It was this desolate little Catholic retreat out in the desert where the Church sent all its pedophile/accused pervert Priests to be "Counseled" and lie low until they were farmed out to another parish. Where invariably a lot of them would repeat their offenses and end up back there....we were gabbing with this licensed therapist about the whole question, who said, "no, there's no cure....unless you were to try EXTREME AVERSION THERAPY and keep beating them with electric cattle prods forever and saying, 'you're not gonna do this anymore....RIGHT????'" I was never sure if he was joking or not, or whether his answer was worth a shit..... If you've got those urges, don't want them, want to get rid of them, want to seek help, guess what? You're fucked....because since you're "Incurable", you're stuck, right out of the box, with the "Pedophile" stigma and your life may as well be over. So what do they do? They stay "CLOSETED", succumb to their urges, hurt innocent victims and keep perpetuating a problem...a problem we DO, by accepting this line of thought, allow to perpetuate. We put a flimsy band-aid on the problem. And people continue to be victimized. Might we not all just be raping the lil' tykes ourselves? I'm not telling you I'm right or wrong....I'm just posing a question and wanting the answer....because in all honesty, I don't think ANYONE has it.

A quick search brought up this

Dave, I'm reading back on what you wrote and plumbing the logic of your statement. Okay---so by equivalent judgement my Uncle raped and murdered two little kids and as such might only be construed as an "Opportunist"? Just posing the question.

Ah, dave's just being a fucksnack...

We do have too many whiners

To deviate again, hard science never held that the earth is flat. That's a much-cherished myth of cultural progress.

A hard science is good to find.

Oh I'm a punny girl. Sorry, I think I've had too much red cordial again.

Yeah, and I'm a Cunning Linguist....or mebbe just a Punning Linguist. (Read whatever you like into that) Actually x your statement, there, sem, well, yeah.....half my point was just yesterday's hard science is today's myth and misconception. Science, such as it was at the time, had a few holes in it. You just kind of wonder----will all our brave and well-documented hypotheses be considered barbaric nonsense tomorrow? Which is another part of what I mean when I say Truth is Dead...

Ah, but then the truth is alive, because from death comes new life. Take my truth, Shiva baby, and make it new again...

I think Remo Williams might have something to say about that..... Fuggit----jam on Hakim Bey under "The Kali Yuga"----

im thrilled that on the first business day in office, the asshole started chipping away at abortion rights. the FIRST DAY!!!! im sick, im so so so sick.

Just thought I'd toss this into the mix...