Ok, so here's the deal. I've been going out with a beautiful young lady for over a year now. She's 11 years younger than me (I'm 37.) She lives a long ways away, so we see each other on weekends. I was married once before to someone who I feel was the "love of my life," but it has been 5 years since. I love the younger lady, but it's not all-consuming like with my first wife. I'm happy with the way things are now, but she's starting to hint, and talking about wanting kids etc. I want kids in theory, someday, but I still feel like a teenager. Jesus, when my dad was 37, I was 12. I can't imagine having a 12 year old kid. What do I do? Marry her? Live with her for a while? Call the whole thing off? Just curious as to suggestions. I know which way I'm leaning. I'd just like to see it in black & white from others. Thanks.

I wouldn't marry her yet. Living with her for a while might work, since it would give you an idea of how thw two of you interact together on a daily basis when you're scrubbing toilets in the same house. But that's just my point of view, and I've adriotly avoided marriage for some time now...

Thanks for the advice, Isolde.

We try.

Yes, but Avis tries harder.

marrying and or living with won't be anything if you can say that you would just call the whole thing off i say just call the whole thing off

Good point. My idea was to live with her for a bit to see if it's worth pursueing or if Dougiefresh should just call it off...this reminds me of Marcel Pagniol's "Fanny" where Marius says that he worries Fanny might look at him when they have been married for 10 years and see an old man when she wants a young one, or that he might look at her and see a child when he wants a woman. Anyway.

Doesn't matter if you live with them first or not. What matters is seeing them in stressfull situations and their reactions. I filed for divorce today after 10 years of marriage. Why? because she has a destructive love of alcohol. When I met her we never drank, never went to a bar. Then 4 years into the marriage it started. She has been thru rehab, on just about every psych med invented, group therapy, marriage counseling, jail twice, but won't stop. The emotional and financial toll has been staggering. I'm taking the kids and saving us before she destroys us. Good luck to you, you'll need it if you marry.

Good Luck to you,you will need it,I have such mixed feelings about this,I,m going around with something I can,t change.

Explain please

Thanks, everyone, for your input. Fb, good luck with everything -- sorry to hear about your divorce. Isolde, yes, I have thought about that age thing (I'll be 50 when she's 39 -- ouch; although mentally, I act about half her age.) I'm leaning towards living together. I'll probably ask her soon to move in with me (shit, that means doing dishes right after you eat; cleaning the bathroom regularly and not just when it gets to the point where zoo animals would fear to tread into it; no more of my lovely piles of 3-month old dirty clothes in the corner; and must keep bodily noises to a minimum. Oh well, we all must make sacrifices.) And Heather, I didn't say I was thinking of calling the whole thing off, I just put that in there as the opposite extreme of getting married. Thanks again everyone.

Uhhh. My advice is tell her what you told us and that you're totally wishy washy on it. Tell her straight out. Tell her it might be that someday you wake up and realize you DON'T want to be married to someone who's not the love of your life (or maybe you do, but that not love of life thing is a bitch). Tell her she can stick around and see if things change with you. Tell her you can't give her any guarantees, and ask what the alarm is set for on her biological clock.

Good luck fb. Dougie--what Margret said. I wouldn't toss out the idea of marrying her entirely, but I would put it on the back burner if you aren't serious. And--you should portray yourself as you are, not hide the way you keep your house, since you will eventually get resentful about it, and you'll want to slip back into it.

i am cannot possibly offer advice on marriage right now, when i am failing miserably at it. hang tight beav, let me know if you by chance come back to cali like you had mentioned sometime ago. perhaps you and i and the kids can bar b q. fuck me hey heather, did you change emails addresses? did you get the message yesterday re: fabrics?

I,m too heartsick to go into it right now,fb.Just if you divorce don,t use your kids to hurt each other.My 1st husband really fucked up Amee,she knows this now and doesn,t even speak to him now,but to get him off my ass I made a very bad leagal decision that has come back to haunt me.I was only married to him for a year but he hounded me through the court system for 11 years.It,s a real bitch.

wow-glad I'm single, for once. My sympathies to all who are having marital troubles.

marriage has been the single most difficult thing i have ever taken on. it has also been one of the most rewarding.

You don,t have kids yet.

i have single bullet for that

Damn, nobody sugarcoats things around here, n'est-ce pas? Yes, I'll tell her Margret that I'm indecisive (I prefer that word to "wishy washy") and she already knows I'm a slob, Isolde. However, I'm not so sure that the "that not love of life thing is a bitch" is so true -- sometimes the fire burns too brightly. We'll see. I appreciate all the input.

yeash some of the photos on my site were takin with a $13 dollar plastic camera. such as this one it has a plastic fixed lense, 4 distance (aperture) settings. total piece of shit , but takes some neato photos

ok thats weird, this post tuend up here......disregard

Patrick, your little friends are in Indiana now. It won't be long :o)

your a good man, i hope they get some time with grandma in Indiana. i can't wait for them to come home

How many people here know each other in real life, as opposed to virtually? And of those, did you know each other before using this board, or through the board? Just curious. I previously dated somebody whom I met on the internet for a rather long time. But alas, I was scared of commitment, and called the whole thing off. I'm good at that. Hence, the posting above, requesting advice on taking my current deal to the next level.

Jesus. Home come everyone's haing marital troubles at once here? Now I'm glad I'm single and don't have to deal with this on top of everything else... And I don't _think_ I know anyone here...

addendum: Jesus, how come I can't spell. How about replacing the above second sentance with : How come everyone's having marital troubles at once here? There. Argh. I'm reading about extra nipples. I don't think I have any. How sad. I want extra nipples. That would be really neat.

my dog has 9 nipples--i'm telling the truth--poor thing is lopsided.

just don't wait too long, Dougie. it is possible to wait too long. things dry up. even for men.

That's sad. What does your dog think about it?

She's ok with it most of the time, but when bikini weather gets here......

PATRICK! Having martial problems?! Meaning SeriouS" problems/or just the usual valleys-btwn- the-peaks type stuff? I don't know of anyone under 30 who works harder at their marriage than you & yr glorious wife. So I hadda ask. Email me, man! -------------------------------------------------- Dougie: Here's the Disclaimer: I am not married nor do I play married on t.v. But I've had up-close-&-personal experience with several 1st-rate marriages (inc. my parents/who'll celebrate their 46th anniversary next month) & more than a few lousy ones that didn't last. So allow me to offer my 2 cents: 1. If you cannot imagine NOT spending the rest of yr life w/this woman/or if you can easily envision a happy future w/out her in yr life/then she is not The One. Marriage is The Final Frontier & our last, best chance to grow up. If you're not absolutely certain this is the person you want to do all yr growing & struggling & sharing & progressing w/til-death-do-you-part/ don't get married. 2. At 26/a woman who wants marriage & family is seriously looking towards the future. The whole bio-clock thing becomes a greater concern/even tho' there's still plenty of time. But not every woman wants to be having her 1st kid at 30+. So you have to resepct that even tho' she's considerably younger than you/she's got a fertility factor to consider that you don't. You can wait another 10 years & STILL find a 26-yr-old to marry. Whereas she might end up spending a fortune on fertility treatments becuz she postponed marriage until she was past 33 or so/which seems to be the magic number that determines which women get pregnant easily & which ones have problems (at least according to all those t.v. newsmagazine specials I ve seen). 3. There's a difference btwn not being ready for marriage at present & not feeling that the person you're with is the one you want to marry. I can't explain it/but I've seen it happen w/couples who hooked up in college but didn't rush down the aisle as soon as they graduated. The ones who made the big show of getting engaged while still undergrads ended up splitting up before their sheepskins had been framed. But there were others who/even tho' they sometimes went to grad school in different cities/stayed together & eventually got married in their late 20's or early 30's. And most of them are still together. I think that's becuz deep down/each of them new they'd found the right person -- it was just a question of picking the right time to marry. Long story short -- & as unpopular as this may sound -- if you know in yr heart you're not going to be 'ready' to marry her a year from now/then walk away -- as hard as that may be -- & let her find someone else. There's nothing worse in my book than a man who strings a woman along during her prime years/then says No when she finally gives him an ultimatum/& leaves her w/a broken heart & barely a handful of fertile eggs left. Too many times/she rushes into marriage w/the next thing in pants that shows up becuz she's scared he's her Last Chance/or she ends up so bitter & distrustful she won't let a guy near her until menpoause is just around the corner. Either way/the woman gets shafted/all becuz the man she invested so much time in didn't have the balls to tell her she was a terrific person but simply not the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with.

P.S. Whatever you do/pls. avoid shacking up w/her. It's a shabby substitute for marriage/if that's what she truly wants. You'll both end up assuming most of the responsibilities of marriage w/out receiving any of the social & emotion benefits of being legally wed. And since I assume she is just a couple of years out of college/or even in grad school/you're the one w/the financial advantage in the relationship. It's far too easy to start accumulating joint debt/or for her to develope bad money habits/when you're living w/someone you're not married to. And the debts will be no easier to walk away from just becuz you weren't married. (I know I sound like Dr. Laura/but I despise that self-righteous 2-faced bitch. I'm just a tad traditional/& maybe a bit of a romantic/when it comes to marriage.)

my vote is for not living together

I'm so glad that some other people see things as I do, that it's cruel for a man to keep on wasting a woman's time, stringing her along, for years and years if he isn't sure she's the one. he knows that she wants him forever, and he doesn't have the guts to just end it. because he doesn't like to see her cry. because he doesn't want to break her heart again. because he doesn't want to have to move out. because he doesn't mind having her around. because, after all, she is "97 percent" fulfilling to him. we're not talking about it anymore. as I have said, he wants to save me for later. if later ever has a chance, which, he has admitted, it may not. he may end up having to marry her. I'm totally in love with him and I hate his fucking guts. but I'm mostly just pissed he never gave me a chance to get bored with him. that asshole. my darling.

*sigh* Don't you get it, Cyst? He doesn't 'have to' marry her any more than he has to marry you. Or anyone. When a man is truly ready to get married/wild horses won't keep him from the altar. But trying to push/prod or provoke any man into marriage only leads to a shitload of regrets. Whoever he is (I've been absent from these parts of late. Besides/you have so many men in yr life I simply can't keep up w/who's center stage at any given moment)/be glad he didn't ask you to marry him. If you'd done the deed/you'd end up far more miserable than you are right now. Fear not/the weekend's coming. Put on yr best out-on-the-prowl dress/then come back on Monday & tell us lonely souls how many freshly-opened noses you left in yr wake. ;) And if he does marry someone else/be sure to go the the wedding. Buy them something totally exqusiste for their new home/something that will never fail to remind her of what lousy taste she has every time she looks at it. Wear a red dress. And make sure you've got the richest, best-looking guy in the state on yr arm. Being dazzling at an ex-lover's wedding is even better than han a revenge-fuck.

sorry to shatter any impression you may have had of my marriage RC. I would love for you to continue thinking everything is peachy at the Morrison house. It's not really worth the details. it's not like we are lunging vases and lamps at each other either. It's jsut we have stumbled upon very trying times. I think things will work out in the end, I THINK. Not that anything i have ever said around here in regards to the matter wasn't true, it's just a little more complicated than that. It always will be. Cyst, men hardly have guts when it comes to the women we love. I just need to grow up and stop being an ass.

Maybe it's true that men have a harder time commiting than women, but it has never been like I've purposely strung a girl along, just to waste the best years of her life for the hell of it. With my first wife, I definitely wanted to get married. With the relationships since, I'm gunshy, but I'm also just not sure if it's right. Does this mean I'm stringing them along? They're there too, I'm not holding a gun to their heads.

it's not that we have a hard time committing, it's just our society goes to a lot of effort to sell us various products and services, and they do this by taunting us with the road not taken. Male infidelity is just short of encouraged. I don't think guys ever intentionally string anyone along either. However, i was once briefly posed with the "why buy the cow when the milk is free?". To a certain extent, i feared i might loose her, so i secured it right away. Now some would call that pressure, perhaps it was, but nonetheless, i acted, and i had full confidence in my actions, and i did with no regrets. I committed, and even during the trying times, i always come back to that square, despite the nasty words that can be exchanged, when the dust settles i am back to that square.

and when the dust settles, thats when preceptions like RC has reapply themselves. today is poised to be a better day to be married

nothing, including milk, is ever, ever, ever free. You and I are the only free entities, besides sunshine and the ground underfoot. Never take anything or anyone for granted, and don't make the mistake of assuming living together is an adequate illusion for the commitment-phobic, as it yields certainly no tax advantage, and only wears your appliances out prematurely. I married once and well and had everything going for the marriage for nearly two decades, and in the end, everyone's gone, the house is empty, and the children confused. I lived with a beautiful and wonderful friend for five years, and in the end, everyone's gone, the house is empty, and the children confused. Even after ten years, mostly alone, I would not trade waking up in my own bed in the solitude of my sheets...for rolling over into someone's elbows. There are always costs. Nothing is for free; nothing is forever. And asking someone to wake up with you is beautiful and kind and rapturous, and if it is not, then why bother? Sanskrit: LOOK well to this day for it is ALL we have.

Dougie: My point is that men DON'T have a hard time committing -- when they WANT to commit. Witness Patrick. If you ain't seen the pix/well, he's a hottie - trust me. And smart. And funny. And a good photographer. He cd still be in his Mack Daddy phase. But Miss Right came along. He realized what he had was worth keeping & building on. She wanted to get married. So he married her. No squirming. No second-guessing. No foot-dragging. Becuz he was SURE. When a man is sure/that's all there is to it. When he's not sure/he can think of 80,000 reasons /excuses/postponements/blah, blah, blah. Guys may not realize they're 'stringing someone along'. But when you've passed that 2nd or 3rd anniversary of dating/& she's nearing or past 30/& every time the M word comes up you find yrself saying anything but Yes -- well, that's stringing someone along in my book. I mean, really -- there are lots of reasons to get married. But the only real reason not to is... "I don't really love you." or "I'm not sure you're the one I want to spend my life with." Which is what makes chicks result to ultimatums. Which men hate. But eventually/ya gotta shit or git off the pot.

As for DanielSSSS's comments: If I managed to marry once & well & stay married for 10 yrs./there's no way I wd end up w/no hse. & confused kids. I wd make sure I ended up widowed by a happy accident/living in a mortgage-free hse. on the remains of a sizable life insurance policy/which wd buy my kids all the therapy they need to straighten themselves out. And we'd visit Daddy's grave on his birthday & Father's Day.

I stayed married for 17 yrs, not just a mere 10. But her family was stronger and wealthier than mine. I lost. In retrospect, I would have run over her with the car for the insurance, so I understand completely, as does my accountant, and as does my children. But the truth is: The marriage collapsed under the weight of alcoholism, hers and mine, and the somewhat hopeless nature of grief over the loss of our two oldest children. My daughter would be twenty two and my son, twenty. My great boys are 18 and almost 17. My two guys are really great, well adjusted young men, and their therapy cost a bunch, and they are well. But yr point is well taken. The tragedy continues, as my ex mother in law says, when my ex wife's husband dies unexpectly this past February of cancer within 30 days of diagnosis. And as my ex wife continu8es to do field research on her alcoholism. I was the one who stayed sober for the past thirteen years, the one who wanted it to work, and the one who knows I am a better Dad that it didn't, and that both of us are happier without the other. Aye, War of the Roses is a good training film.

wow, she called me a "hottie". you made my day RC

Daniel, I'm very sorry to hear about your losses. BTW, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is another good training film. I've been there and done that.

Patrick--you are! I guess in some ways I was lucky that my parents broke up early. I don't know. sometimes, marriages don't work, and it's very sad when that happens, but it's good if everyone involved recognizes that. Maybe that's why I haven't married. (I mean, I still can, I suppose, I just haven't.) I'm not interested in having a marriage that just falls apart. My mother remarried almost immediatly after she left my father. Her marriage is still together, but I don't speak with her or her husband. (That was an aside.) I don't know. I don't agree with stringing someone along, but I'm not sure I buy all this biological clock stuff either. I wouldn't marry if I wasn't certain. But I also wouldn't push marriage with someone because I think it might work and I wanted children. Bleh.

I think Wolfe had Burton and Taylor in mind when writing the book. Or my parents. Thanks Dougie but let me say the losses are a long time ago, seem to have happened to another person from the one I am now, and in the end, simply part of life. We each die a little each day. I think having a partner, finding the right one(s) especially may make the experience of such losses any humans experience bearable. We need to lift one another up in such times. If one waits until one is sure "this is the one" the species will cease to exist in one short, fearful, hesitating generation, huh! Risk a little, speak from the heart, hurt no one intentionally, and have fun at no one's expense, not even your own. If it works long term, and one receives the gift of becoming a father or mother, all the more gratitude is due: these are the fringe benefits of saying YES to the adventure, as Joseph Campbell would say.

I guess I shdn't be so flip abt offing an errant spouse. But I've heard just TOO many sad stories abt guys (& it's always guys) who lost everything in a divorce & barely get to see their kids. Not to say their wives walked away w/Fort Knox. But in my experience/the wife always get the hse. & at least one car. And then they remarry & go back to being a 2-income household w/child support payments to boot. Yes... I'm long overdue for some adventure. But I'm also a big enuf sap to still believe marriage is life's greatest adventure. Which is why I'll probably end up one of those little old ladies w/millions of books & 16 cats who minds everyone's business & gives out lots of unwanted advice.

Don'tcha mean Edward Albee?

I've been dating my girlfriend for six months, and she fully expects us to get married. I'm not sure. Should I be?

marriage is about ownerswhip. i don't own anyone. do you?

lose the "w"

and the other "w" as well, change the "e" to an "o" and add an "h" at the beginning. and then you just about have it right.

honorship?

I didn't know that was a word. Whipping may bne onvolved in marriage, but hopefull with mutual consent. The eternal question: do you feel ready to marry? Do you want to? Regardless of whether your girlfriend expects you to... And, shoot me now if you like, but what is the big thing with marriage? I seriously want to know. I mean, ok, there is the "you are my partner for life" thing, but it seems like if you're a really attached pair, you don't need rings and an expensive serice to tell you that... Anyway. Ideas?

"The love of the spouses requires, of its very nature, the unity and indissolubility of the spouses' community of persons, which embraces their entire life: 'so they are no longer two, but one flesh' (Mt 19:6; cf. Gen 2:24). They are called to grow continually in their communion through day-to-day fidelity to their marriage promise of total mutual self-giving. This human communion is confirmed, purified, and completed by communion in Jesus Christ, given through the sacrament of Matrimony." --Catachism of the Catholic Church, entry #1644.

She just got on a plane to Ireland, gonna be there for three weeks. I have time to think about it. She's pretty intent on getting a dog when she gets back. Has her heart set on it. The thing is, if she gets the dog she'll be in a bind if things ever go south between us. She can't afford to rent a house, which she'd need to do to keep a dog. (At least, to keep the labrador she wants to get. Big dog...) I almost feel like I have to choose now whether I'll ever want to marry her. She certainly thinks along those lines. She's said as much. She says I'm the guy she wants to spend the rest of her life with. It's a convoluted story. (You did want to hear it, right?) We started dating (the first time) a year and a half ago. Four months later I broke up with her because I found out (rather sneakily) that she considered many of my traits unsatisfactory, among them my weight, personality, hygene, and *AHEM* endowment. (There it is again!) Six months after that, in a (mutual) drunken stupor, we got back together. I thought, "Well, shit, maybe I've been so pissed, I've been suppressing some positive feelings towards her." So, I decided to give things a shot. Now, seven months later, I'm feeling ok with her and the relationship. One thing that bugs me, though, is that she's never explained why I'm now the man of her dreams when before I was "unsatisfactory." I've asked her this point blank, and the only response she's given is that, before, she "didn't mean it." I find that hard to believe... Any thoughts?

don't marry her sorry

She's holding something back, that she needs to explain in depth to you. It seems that something radical must have happened if before she had issues with your body and now she doesn't. You need to know what happened so you can determine whether or not someday after the marriage she wakes up and decides that your physical appearance once again doesn't cut it, and who knows what else.

Fuck her Antigone,trust me.Just forget that whole mess.

If she dissed you before becuz she didn't think you were up to snuff/why'd you ever give her the time of day again? I know that people split up for all kinds of reasons. And sometimes/they grow up while they're apart & they can reunite on a higher plane becuz they've gotten their individual shit together/blah, blah, blah. But when someone tells you they have issues w/yr weight/hygiene & PERSONALITY??? I mean/what on earth did they ever LIKE abt you in the 1st place? This chick is just marking time w/you 'til something (she thinks is) better comes along. This is NOT the girl you wanna marry. Trust me.

Yea,what R.C. said.

ditto dave.....you putz, marriage is not about ownership. marriage is about committing to someone, publically, legitimizing to your closest friends and family and most importantly to him/her. It dignifies you, it celebrates you, it actually gives you power AS A COUPLE. It also WHIPS you into shape as a partner, so to speak, you can't just walk out when you have a fight, you can't walk out when your pissed, you may or may not have childeren, but regardless YOU HAVE TO WORK it out. It's a reward, it's security, it's comfort, it's discipline.......it's tough but when your right on the money.....the vagina the vagina the vagina.....and if your super right on....... the ass the ass the ass.....AHEM! nevermind..... It's a Constitution, so to speak, by which you love your partner by. Personally, we have no house, no children....just 1 car, lots of records and a computer. There is no ownership involved, however i see where you might derive this from in regards the house situation that i think DanielSS described earlier, and i see how other couples use property/children and such to manipulate, such as the dog to antigone.(Antigone don't let her bring that dog is she can't afford a place, it's a subtle bind). I see this, but to narrow your own perception based on others............well....come on...thats kinda of a drag don't ya think? sorry to whip you again, i know i busted your balls on valentines........ have a nice day

i'm just gonna say that i disagree.

if you're in doubt about whether you should get married, don't get married. and don't let her have a dog at your place. the situation sounds bad enough without bringing in innocent third parties.

Thanks, ya'll. I was going to have "the talk" with her before she got a dog, but this advice has just increased my resolve. I don't want to pose any ultimatums, but I think we should resolve our outstanding issues before she becomes any more financially dependent. I sometimes feel tempted to break everything off, especially when she tries to change me, or when she becomes irritated when I get enthusiastic about anything not related to the relationship. This stuff doesn't happen as often as it used to, but it does happen. Is it parania or cynicism to think that she might get worse, not better, if we got hitched? I don't know... Sometimes I think I should work things out. Things have been good, and they've been bad. Since we broke up the first time, I haven't felt really great about her. I did in the beginning, but I don't know how much of that was illusion. Maybe that was all burned out of me. But I can't be perpetually wishing for infatuation. Is that feeling real? When I feel that good about someone, is it realistic? Can I expect to ever feel that good about someone, or is this as good as it gets? She's going to be on vacation for the next three weeks. If I'm not looking forward to her return by that time, maybe it will be time to pack it up...

are you one of those people for whom anybody is better than nobody?

let's all make a pact to hold out for the real thing.

I mean, we're all sort of lucky. we're the first who have been able to know that if all else fails, we can always just find our soulmates on the internet.

computer, computer make me a match - find me a find, catch me a catch. nah.

October 21st. 1812 Silver Ave SE Albuquerque, NM 87106 Wedding-B-Q. I....am the champion....of the world.... If you're looking to get a hotel room, do me a favor and get the Marriott or something else you've heard of. Unless you want and adventure. Because there are hotels very close to where I live, and they are cheap, cheap, cheap. Because they are crack hotels.

Ok. We will keep this in mind. The problem with holding out for the real thing is that it takes awhile. One has to experiment a bit.

my buddy jeff is a home-wrecker. (home-wrecker!, home-wrecker!) i leave the guy at antarctica for a few hours and what happens? he's got his hands down the pants of some poor misguided woman who's supposed to be getting married this saturday. (home-wrecker! home-wrecker!) she called the wedding off and switched gears into stalking mode. she thinks she's in love. L-O-V-E. yeah. love. (home-wrecker! home-wrecker!) my buddy jeff is a shaken man. her ex-fiancé is this big sicilian guy who works as a representative for some construction union. read between the lines. my buddy jeff is a shaken man. (home-wrecker! home-wrecker!) me? i have no worries. i laugh a little, cry a little, work a little, play a little, fuck a little, love a little, and slam funk like a bad motherfucker. but my buddy jeff is a nervous man. he's a home-wrecker. i should write a song.

recalling that scene in Good Fellas when that neighbor fucks with Liotta's girl......handing her a bloody gun butt "Most girls would have called it quits right then and there, when your man asks you to hide his gun, but me.....I have to admit...it turned me on"

you did write a song antigone- from my experience it's the infatuation that goes away while real stuff settles in it doesn't arrive in the middle to rescue things if you don't look forward to her return- she's just saving a place for someone else. i think it's best to let her go before that person shows up- she probably won't take it very well.

Marriott - check. perhaps we could try to pass this off as a convention and get special rates for a block of rooms? i am coming, I have decided. having met one sorabji-denizen, I am hooked and want to meet more. I am also good for sharing crash space, although if I do the booking, I insist on getting a bed.

Congrats Margaret! I am up for meeting sorabjites and for wishing you very well on 10/21, but I will be way up north at a Benedictine Monastery in Minnesota...no kidding. But I will keep all wedding goers in my rambling thoughts that weekend. How about my favorite off the wall place: Casa del Suenos right next to old town Alb-b-q? It's a great little old bnb with good gardens and an ecletic if not wierd clientele. Private cottages and intimate gardens and the occasional artist working in the light and shadow. Another cheap and favoritely clean safe noncrack motel is the Comfort Inn on the north side as you wind your way up to the Sandia Crest area...and everyone please stop at the greek restaurant close to the university I used to frequent. Wish I cd be there with you all.

cyst: "are you one of those people for whom anybody is better than nobody?" Nah. I spent five years alone before her. I was lonely, but I didn't want to get into a relaitonship that I'd later regret. Then I did! I just fall in love with whomever pays attention to me, that's all there is to it.

A Benedictine Monastary? Awesome! Tell me more. I think I'll have moved by then, in which case a longish drive from Cal to NM would become an agaonizing drive from Vermont to NM. But I'll be sure to keep you in my thoughts.

Actually it's a monastery. I'm in this program of study on Celtic Mysticism, for two years, and we congregate twice yearly along the banks of a fly swarming cold running river north of Minneapolis at the Dunrovin Retreat Center. The homework and experiential work between sessions are monumental tasks seems like. My work at Carondolet in April set the stage and motivated me for doing what I'm doing here in Missouri, namely moving out of the suburbs and into the woods. I love Alb-b-q and work part time for a company based out of Jemez NM, and don't get to go play there very much. But if I weren't up north in October, I'd try to be nondescript at the sorabji nuptials...whereabouts in Vermont are you, Isolde? I spent a fair amount of time in Middlebury and environs some years ago. Best bud and relative and kissin cousin lives with her mate in western Mass with the Vermont border in her back yard. We are fairly scattered everywhere, huh? and back here every nnight. Wonderous web. I just l,oaded juno freebie on my laptop so I can access you guys from the woods and work too. I don't know if I'm connected right now (guess wwe'll find out) I am using Netscape for the first time, and I'm not sure I like it. Last use of Internet Explorer on this machine was while in Canada so everything is pretty screwey. It will take a little time to sort out and delete some redundat files. I thought default was Explorer but bang zoom it was Netscape. Yikes.

Casas dos suenos is quite nice indeed. I used to live, no shit, 30' from it. I think, however, it's a bit swanky. http://www.woogus.com/camaggie/uberwensch/index.htm the links to old sorabji messages are broke, and I couldn't get the che picture of dave to work right so I dissed it stone cold. I am now renewing my pledge. Send me an image and some text and I will add it. I know the index page is a piece of shit and hard to read; I was playing with adobe. Umm...yeah, so that annoying image/colour scheme will probably end up elsewhere. Somewhere noone will want to go. Perhaps a poetry page? SORABJI HAIKU CONTEST BACK ON! Last haikus were satan's severed head. I have suggestions for the new ones, but I'd rather hear from you. Dave, I saved the image. Maybe we should get t-shirts done.

I'm not there yet. Not exactly sure where I'm going. I'm moving to a town which is really little and I forget the name of it and it's like 30 min north of Bennington? Sorabji. Like spring. Sorabji. Fills my blank screen. Sorabji. Falling. That _is not_ my final haiku. Just goofing around.

I think I 'm gonna name my new woody house Casa del Ticks del Norte. -- Missouri.

What's the haiku deal? Five syllables, then 7, Then 5? Any rhymes?

I screen'd the loose sand searching for clues to the past All I found were worms.

5 7 5 No rhymes, although you can if you so desire. They first two lines tend to be simple, and the last is like a little bombshell. Or not, as can be demonstrated in my example. I'll have to think about this one.

The Knicks suck donkeys Bunch of thugs should play football Ewing please retire

come down to gotham beat you like a dog, leave you naked in the bronx.

Spoken like a true Nix fan, poor creature you are Along with Spike Lee

best use for haiku: petty squabbles about sports and hurling insults

Yes indeed droopy Though must stop thinking in hai ku lest I go mad

reggie miller has ears so big it makes me laugh to see him get mad

reggie miller looks like a vampire who's black shit! where's my garlic

reggie miller will dribble all over your grave you pathetic knave

don't know much 'bout sports. why always haiku? how 'bout dirty limericks?

There was an old man named Ewing Who played basketball like a woman He stood like a tree Right next to Spree And got what he deserved -- a booing

by "dirty" i meant that you'd pick subjects scatalogical or sick quite unintellectual about organs sexual... or did you mean that ewing's a prick?

i have no haiku... just a rave on how things should be. woman piss me off, i piss myself off. the whole strung along conversation is insane. men are fuckers and women let them be (and vice versa). when you're being strung along stand up for yourself, tell them to fuck off. you're a human being, you're beautiful, you deserve respect. an hour ago i was kicking myself for being so fucking dependant, but i see that i'm not the only one. what is wrong with being alone? i find it much better to be alone than to be in a relationship that makes me feel like shit. i deserve to be happy regardless of what i look like, how educated i am, my family, my financial situation...

nymphomaniacal jill used a dynamite tick for a thrill they found her vagina in north carolina and bits of her tits on brazil

now that's poetry.

o finally a use for ticks un-poetic insect sticks and sucks and licks poor Jill's pleasure's fee now that's not

dextromethorphan is one of my favorite words. http://www.kelani.com/null/null.html

Just for one day Cyst, I,d like to walk in your shoes,you rock!!

I love you, j. I'm sorry for being a bitch to you when you first got here. I love this cold, blustery memorial saturday. I had a great time out with my mother today. I'm excited that I have a job interview friday. I like my new pants. I had sushi for lunch. I got my hair cut and the hairdresser told me he remembered me ("how could I forget those legs?") and he flirted with me and told me he was stoned and wanted to spend all day cutting my hair. it turned out great and it's cloudy but light out and I got another betsey johnson dress. I'm going to meet friends tonight. and j liked my dxm link. things aren't so very bad.

J. I'm not up to date around here but here goes anyway. Did you find/get back your dog?

Nope,I put up flyers in the neighborhood,an ad in the paper,paid $25.00 to some petsfind place,and offered a $100.00 reward.I still look for her at the pound twice a week,but I think somebody thought she was a stray and just kept her.I call dead animal pick-up every week,so she,s not dead.I hope she is with a family with kids,she loves kids.I sure miss her.

Oh Cyst I love you too,when you were on the other side of the world and they were having those earthquakes,I was so afraid for you,also it,s been along time now,but I didn,t realize it was you that sent me a nice e-mail at the time,you used your real name.I wish I would have saved your address,but I didn,t know it was you.

witness union i travel far only to cry smoke drink head soft now

We have missed you Patrick,did you fly?Did you have a good time?

yes 4 days, collectively 8 hours sleep, la to denver (delayed, stayed, got laid redroof inns promote the slut in us all) to atlanta, to flat rock to atlanta to la, the taxi man got a ticket

got to visit a few old haunts in atlanta, Manuels Tavern, Stein Club and my most fav, Clairemont Lounge, Atlanta's equivolent of Jumbos Clown room only they show everything......i was so shocked to actually see EVERYTHING!....la has weird paisty, bottom, liquor laws.

got to visit a few old haunts in atlanta, Manuels Tavern, Stein Club and my most fav, Clairemont Lounge, Atlanta's equivolent of Jumbos Clown room only they show everything......i was so shocked to actually see EVERYTHING!....la has weird paisty, bottom, liquor laws.

Live with her first- but those habit's will come back. I mean, the laundry that's not got a life of it's own, and the zoo animals in the bathroom. You've only been together for a year or so, but as you get older that time seems longer, I guess. Everyone I know over thirty wants to get married to people they've barely met. My sister is engaged and she's been going out with Him - he's really nice, though- for four months. I mean, I want to be with Britt forever, but the thought of divorce scares me shitless. My parents are divorced and I never want to go through that again.

Thanks for the advice, Atalanta. I am going on a week-long vacation with her soon, which should give me some clues as to what to do.

No problem. Good luck!