My son got asked out on a date. A real honest to Jesus date. Dinner and a movie, that sort of thing. Since we're leaving town just after sunrise tomorrow the proposed date won't be happening for at least a week or more, but still......the kid is 15. Is that too young for an unchaperoned date? Honestly, I'd probably feel like the world's biggest square if I actually did the chaperone thing. At 15 I wasn't dating anybody but if someone had offered to chaperone me, my response probably wouldn't have been any too kind. I'm in the weird position of having my kid posting here. That's fine. He can add his input. I'm just turning into a worry-wart lately about this stuff. My boy is very good and Dorian (the kid who asked him out) also seems to be a really good kid. BUT.....well, Papa's worried. I can't help it. I just don't want either of these kids getting in over their heads. So how old should a boy be before he's turned loose into the dating scene? Part of me just wants to keep Brendan home and not turn him loose. But I know that he's coming of age. He probably needs to spend a bit more time with other teenagers. Truth is, he rarely leaves the house and going out might be good for him. I just can't help being concerned about the whole thing. Incidentally, the date is okay with Dorian's folks. They don't mind. They're nervous about other issues like letting their son spend the night here. I can kinda see that. It would be much like sending a straight girl over to spend the night at a boy's house. Most parents aren't into that sort of thing (I say "most" because Brendan does have two female friends who spend the night over here). Being a father is a weird business. I love it, I really do. But I sure as hell don't have all the answers. Brendan didn't exactly come with an instruction manual. I'm still trying to figure it all out.....and above all, to do the right thing.

Jeez, seems like an eternity ago, but when I was 15 or 16, I had unchaperoned dates -- the girl's parents would usually make her be home by 10:30 or 11:00, but dinner & a movie, or hanging out at the mall, with some post-date hot and heavy making out and trying to get her blouse unbuttoned in the car over the stick-shift was usually the pattern. I'd say let them try it, with a curfew attached.

Yeah, the curfew is good, and do all the parenty things like having them call in from where they are going and all that stuff. From what Brendan wrote about Dorian, it seems like an actual, normal teenage reaction he's having with this kid. Considering what he's been through, that alone is worth dancing about. I mean, you've formed an opinion about Dorian, I assume, so if you don't feel ok leaving those two alone at this point, then don't do it. It really is up to you. My personal feeling would be to let it happen, but not my kid.

i say let him go have a curfew. are you dropping them off? i went out at fourteen i think, but i was a tremendous prude, my parents never had anything to worry about. man, my dad was WAY too uptight for how easy he had it. then again, i started a 12 year relationship when i was 16. i don't suggest letting that happen.

Dorian's a good kid, from what I can tell. He's polite, intelligent (frighteningly so) and well-mannered. It's easy to forget that he's a teenager sometimes because he often comes off as rather adult. If Brendan's going to be dating anybody right now, Dorian definitely gets my vote. It's the making out part that scares me. I mean, I'm hardly one to get upset about holding hands and a bit of kissing. But I used to be 15 and I know how a 15 year old's hormones work. Dorian's almost 17 and I know how that works too. And Dorian will probably have the family car. More chances to make out there, need I say more? Maybe my real fear comes from the fact that I was sexually abused at 15 by someone I really trusted. The experience seriously fucked me up. I don't want that happening to anyone else.....especially my own son. Not that I really think Dorian's going to screw with Brendan's head. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious here. I'm inclined to let them go out. But I'll also be fairly parental about it. Curfew is probably not a bad idea in this case. It also gives me a chance to talk about issues of trust with Brendan. I'm trusting him to go out and behave himself. I'm also trusting him to tell me if he feels at any moment that things are getting out of control. I've already had some phone calls from Dorian's folks and I'll probably be getting more. They seem to be glad to have someone else to talk to about raising a gay kid. Dorian and Brendan have both known they're gay since they were quite young. I was much the same way. But when I was young I ran into some fairly intense sexual predators. I do NOT want that happening to Brendan. The good news is that he and Dorian are similar in age, whereas in my teens I tended to gravitate toward much older men and they often took advantage of me. I'm trying to put it all in perspective. What if these kids were straight? Would a 15 year old girl going out with a 17 year old boy be a major cause for alarm or would it just be a normal adolescent rite of passage? My feeling is that it's probably be seen as fairly normal, so why deny the experience to my kid just because it's a same-sex encounter? However.....well, Papa's still worried. But that's just part of being a father, I guess.

Sorry to hear about your experience, Pilate. I can't speak from experience since I'm not a father, but I believe one the biggest harms a parent can do to a child is not letting him make mistakes on his own, and trying to shelter him from life's lessons. I know my parents only meant the best for us, but they were controlling and wanted to spare us from the life's hard knocks, as opposed to letting us fall off that proverbial horse ourselves and get right back up again. I love my parents and respect them, but if I had one wish, it would be that they weren't so protective.

I'm definitely trying not to be overprotective. Brendan actually has a slight inclination to overprotect himself (he's a bit timid and rarely leaves the house). His friends seem to be bringing him out of his shell, which is good. He does need to learn life's lessons on his own. But I wouldn't mind functioning as a loose safety net, ready to catch him if he should fall. These two kids, Dorian and Brendan, are kind of weird compliments to one another. Dorian has no real experience in any of the usual adolescent vices. He's a very sheltered kid from a reasonably well-to-do home. Brendan, although younger, has far outdone him in terms of experience. On the other hand, Dorian's really turned on to underground culture and is very knowing in ways that Brendan isn't. He has a certain sophistication about him. Dorian's a brilliant kid who's well on his way to a nice private college full of other brilliant kids. I think Dorian secretly wants to take a walk on the wild side. Brendan IS the wild side. But Brendan is very innocent despite his various experiences. Both of these kids are innocent but in radically different ways, if that makes sense. Brendan is wide-eyed, bordering on gullibility. Dorian is hip but has never had anybody to share his exotic tastes with. They get along well, talking endlessly about weird art, music and culture. Brendan soaks it up like a sponge. Dorian's learning plenty from Brendan too but the lessons are different. I just don't want anything to move too fast. They're just kids, for chrissakes. No need for them to rush blindly into adulthood.

there nothing wrong with your feelings. i had my first date when i was 12 or so...and i think the girl was even younger. My parents dropped me off at the movies, picked me up and then dropped me off at the neighborhood Chili's or Applebee's or something like that. Granted I was young but they allowed me to sit with her, order my own food ( i think my parents were on the other side of the resturaunt and had the waitress in cohoots) alone and act like an adult. At Brandon's age, every one above has the right idea, let them go, insist on driving them and a curfew is not a bad idea. 11 o clock is good, maybe allow them to come back watch a lil TV or something until Midnite.....assuming Dorain does crash over....offer to drive him home. Or wait, does he drive? You not being overprotective, you re being a parent.

maybe you should drive. it would just show your concern for them both. that you trust him but you expect him to have boundaries. i'm sure that brendan actually appreciates it after growing up like he did. maybe he needs to see people respect him, so he can respect himself, which would probably help keep him out of bad situations.

I can not read all this shit it is too much. I do know that Daddy is tryen to help me and I am glad but, also i am old enuf to do what I damn please. Daddy you know what I mean. I want to be took care of but I want to have my free will too. I want Dad to help me. but I want to date Dorian. I do NOT my friends know what the hell I realy want excapt to be allowt to have my free will. Curfew FUCK THAT SHIT> i say taht but I know I'll get the curfew anyhow and it's ok. See I do this thing, I am a rebel and I say my rebel b.s. and Daddy lets me say it out loud. then we talk. I can say fuck the curfew then he explane why I have to have it and I agree that it is ok. But it is a big deal to me that I can say it out loud and tell daddy no and tell him I will not obey but then after I say it I always do obey and I am very good. But if I do not rebel then I will nevar get ahead! I am a smart ass and a rebel but WITH a cause which is my own indepandance. I say to you now I will nevr give in! Captain Motherfucking Benteen hath spoken god damn your spleen! but i give in every day of my life but only to Daddy Trace and Daddy Lee because they realy do love me for real. I beleive that they know what is for the best. If they say no I argue my case once and then just acept it. To be with Dorian is very major for me rite now and I want this to work so bad you dont even know. And it will be tons more fun if Dorian drives trust me for Shivas sake.

of course it will, you devil you

Brendan, you're the greatest. You really are. Your post has got me smiling. But I know there's a serious side to it as well. Your independence is important to you, and it SHOULD be. I can understand that. I've decided that you can go out with Dorian. It's cool. But I don't want him driving. Not on the first date. Maybe later. Let's talk to his parents about that one. And you need to be home by midnight. I am listening to you when you challenge me. I don't (can't) always give in, but I'm listening. Always. I know you're excited to be going out with Dorian. I just want you to be careful. You're the only Captain Benteen I've got. I've got to take care of you. Thus spake Zarathustra.

Right on Pilate,I don't think the Captain would do anything to disapoint you.He has a good head on his shoulders.

THANK YOU for leting me go out!!!! Do think hard about Dorian driving. We will be good. I am so excitet about going out I can hardly stand it I think of him and feel some thing very deep inside tho we havn't been togeather long at all. I talk to him and every thing makes sense. It isn't all about the body its about the mind. Going out with him is the desiere of my heart and this is what I want. You are a good Daddy even if you did not let me go. But I am over joyed that you have let me and I will try to be responsibale. Even if it hurts. J thanks for your vote of confadence! Wooooohooo! I am not only going to mardi Gras but i'm going on a date when I get home. Life should be this good every day. Selah!

I think I will ask my friends Violet and Keota on dates too. Not romantac dates but buddy dates so they dont feel left out cause I'm all hung up on Dorian. or maybe we can do a big group date like all go hang out some where. I have to be good to my buddys and family too even tho I am going out with Dorian. Dorian is so damn foxy it make my heart ache and he is kind and nevaer makes fun of my way of writing. I do have sex ideas about him but its more about the mind and spirit and the sex stuff is NEBULOUS (a new vocabulary word) Im sayen it's not real clear to me what I want exacly. So, I just want to date and be mello. mello like jello. and speakin of jello Crimson need to get the sugar kind this sugarfree stuff blows send her email now. Tell her to get sugar jello. thank you verry much verily I say unto thee aspartame is a false and evil god.

brendan, i was in a few accidents- with my friends driving- before i was twenty and none since then they were responsible people and there were no drugs or drinking involved, it just happened, younger drivers are just not as experienced by the way, i want to hang out with captain benteen

Every one can hang with Captain Benteen he is the god of groovyness! What you say makes me stop and think. It cause me to be afraid for Dorian I can not bear to lose him ever. He is not one for drinken and drugs but he is young like me. I do not drive it scare me. I think of being in a car with him as real fun but to think of a crash is like extra spooky. And, if i was in a crash who would take care of my poor old gray headed Daddy.

OK, not to to be the person who drive away from the conversation here... BUT I'M FUCKING CONFUSED AS HELL HERE...and fuck i even read all of that. I still have no real basis on whats going on here. ON the other hand I'll explain my brief dating childhood and how it might help. When I had just turned 15 I started going out with this girl who was 6 inches taller than me, had long red hair and was 2 years older than me. Kinda intimidating, but in the same right it was because I upheld the status of seeming alot older than I really was. Hell I met TBone during that relationship. Anyway when it ended I was crushed as hell, because that was the first girl I ever went out with. But it also taught me a whole hell of alot. And actually until recently I always ended up dating females who were older than me. The most recent relationship I had was the one that hurt me the most when it ended and it still bothers me because i honestly belive that I'm still in love with that girl. In any case she was almost the same age as me, only a couple months older. Throughout highschool I learned a lot about parents, girls, and rules. Having a curfew sucks, but i realize that its not as bad as it seems. I'm a cronic insomniac now, and I stay up constantly and have the strangest fucking sleep schedual. If I didn't have a curfew when I was in Highschool I probably would have never graduated. As for my parents, I realize although I hated much of the shit I got from them in terms of girls, it was true and sometimes more helpfull then I though it to be. Females, the only thing I learned about females during all of this is that they are the most confusing creatures on gods green earth, and in the same respect the most wonderful.

This is about guys - hence your confusion? Here's a summary: 1. Brendan is going out on a date with Dorian. 2. Pilate is being a good parent and is naturally fretting. 3. Everyone else is weighing in with their 2 cents. 4. After depositing 2 cents, enjoy the magical memories of being a teen again. 5. Or shudder quietly to yourself.

*shudder*

I'm just shuddering. But, here's my 2 cents anyway. I think Brendan is to young to have decided he's gay. Perhaps he should be speaking with a councelor. Someone he could trust. Before, acting on these impulses. He needs to be absolutely sure before following that lifestyle choice. Too many wierdos on either side of that issue.

thanx, oswald...i'm already getting e-mails about the jello. some of them are kinda funny, too. i started "officially" dating at 15. my folks didn't seem to realize that i'd been hanging out in the back seats of cars for several years prior to that. my dating career began fairly early. the folks thought they were providing me w/ some kind of major rite of passage when they finally "let" me go out on dates. my first date was supposed to consist of dinner at a chinese restaurant. which it did. i went there w/ a sailor after getting out of a local porn theatre. i was so revoltingly drunk that i literally got thrown out of the restaurant. hey, brendan...i'll buy you some sugared jello, already. 50 centavos a box. anything for your continued happiness, m'lord. packing up for the mardi gras trip. this is gonna be too much fun. pug just finished packing his bags. we're gonna pick him up when he gets off work early tomorrow morning & then we're all going southbound.

I knew damn well I was gay by the time I was 15. By the time I reached that age it was pretty much carved in stone. It's a very strong impulse and one without any doubts whatsoever (or at least it was that way for me.) And while we're on the subject, WHY do people insist that gay kids try dating the opposite sex "just to be sure" about their sexuality when nobody ever asks straight kids to date within their own gender "just to be sure" they're really straight? If Brendan shows signs of becoming straight or bi, I'll definitely listen to him carefully. It's just that he hasn't shown any sign of it whatsoever and I feel that I know him pretty damn well by now.

And another thing......why would a gay kid need counseling solely for the fact that he's gay? Do people send their kids to shrinks because they're showing the disturbing signs of turning straight? I mean, Christ, kids might go around actually deciding to live the straight lifestyle 24/7. One has to know for sure before treading down a perilous path like that. Brendan may opt to seek counseling someday. I definitely wouldn't be against it. But it would almost certainly be for much larger issues than the fact that he happens to be gay. That's just the way I see it, anyhow.

15 is not too young of an age to know who you like and who you don't like. im pretty confident that by 15 you were sure who you wanted to prick....so why shouldn't he. Frankly, as far as i am concerned, the earlier an adolescent discovers this about himself the better and the more of a well balanced adult they will be, accepting at an early age who they are

its the rightwing notion that gays can be "cured" its messed up pilate, its best left alone....you KNOW whats up. nevermind them

y'know, for years i've wondered if i'm actually lesbian or bi, and at ninteen i'm still not sure. i often wonder about kissing other women and sometimes i look at pictures of semi-naked women and i like it. and it seems like women are often more intelligent/better looking than the guys i've dated. the rightwing notion is sortof weird. but i had a friend (i've seen him once in the last year half or so) who swears he became bi through acceptance of gays as fact. i've since heard that he's stopped dating girls completely. his dad disowned him, he dropped out of college, and he moves in with people a week after he meets them on the internet. i think it's a scary situation to be in. i miss him so much, but i have no way to reach him.

o think the point is, no on can determine when its appropriate for one to decide his or her sexuality.

Picky, Picky, Picky. Why is the gay community so sensitive? I only suggested he seek counceling from someone he trusts. I would never trust a "shrink". Their even screwier than the rest of us. As you have already shown, Pilate, there is extremism from both sides of the human sexuality issue. That's why he should talk to someone he trusts. Someone outside of the home. And, in private!!!

Well, I don't exactly think that anything I've said so far rates as extremism. If you want extremism I can give it to you. As for the issue of Brendan talking to someone he trusts, who's he going to trust more than his parents? However, I think I know what you're saying here. He does talk to his friends (in private). He talks extensively to me and my partner (in private, things that would never be said here.) As far as any contacts outside the home and his three close friends, well, there aren't any. Brendan is agoraphobic. He rarely leaves the house. His friends have gotten him to make little ventures out to the mall and other hangouts and that's damn near miraculous. That he's considering dating is a huge step for him. This is a kid who could go for months without leaving the house. His only other real contact is his kid brother, who's in the process of being adopted by Christian fundamentalists. Brendan trusts his little brother's new dad, although the guy's a reverend, and occasionally talks with him privately (mostly about religious issues from what I can gather). Brendan also speaks privately once in a while with his half sister, who lives out of state. Should Brendan find someone else in whom he places a large amount of trust, then fine, let him talk openly. And privately. I don't need to be privy to every single word the boy says. If he decides to turn straight or bi then more power to him. Just because his parents are gay doesn't mean that he has to be. After all, just because my parents were straight didn't mean that I turned out that way. Brendan was openly (and quite flamboyantly) gay when he came into our lives. Brendan was living the lifestyle and having sexual experiences with men long before we ever met him. My fiance and I felt particularly equipped to deal with him because we're in the same boat. We both have had the experience of growing up gay and trying to defend it in the face of a thousand stupid arguments. If there seems to be any defensiveness on my part, that's probably why. Because I've had the "pleasure" of standing where Brendan's standing and it's not exactly a fucking barrel of laughs. This kid has been kicked from pillar to post. He was unbelievably bullied at school, both by students and teachers. He was molested, raped, burned and beaten at home. Now he's mine. I am VERY protective of him. And supportive. If he ever finds a private confidante, that's great. May he choose one wisely. I actually think that Dorian (the kid he's about to start dating) is becoming a confidante. They seem to be sharing secrets together, the kind of secrets only understood from adolescent to adolescent. Talking to people his own age is quite important.

i don't see how anyone could be totally straight or totally gay... did i say that?

i couldn't agree with you more heather. sexuality is so very gray...its rarely black and white.

Ok... Hal is no longer confused. I missed the Gay thing, I thought Dorian was a girl and I couldn't quite see what the problem was. The fact that Dorian is a guy, still doesn't make anything a problem. I'm straight so I can't say what age decides when a person decides if they are gay or not. NOT MY PLACE. Although I must say at 15 I was getting into girls ( metaphrically not physically) in any case, if he makes this decision then let him roll with it. Throughout my life the truly sucessfull parents are the ones who support any decision a child makes, and adds the supportive OPINION. And just that, if what the child is doing is harmfull then the parent should step in, but if its a life decision that the child should have the right to make on their own, the parent should support them and not impose their opinon on the child but let the child know his/her thoughs. Pilate, I'm impressed with the way your handling this, my parents would have flogged me with a bat for thoughts like these. And yet even today my parents wonder why then never saw any of my girlfriends, or friends for that matter. I guess its kinda hard to explain to them, that they were sort of an embarresment, and i never knew what would please them or enrage them. (More my father then mother, she always just wanted to be there for me.)

i wish i had gay parents

actually, i've met some gay parents who were totally screwed in the head. however, most of them i've encountered have been great. people who bitch about gays being parents should be sentenced to spending a day w/ brendan's biological parents. that would fix their fucking wagon. i'm in the position of watching pilate & trace on a daily basis & i can honestly say that they're among the best parents i've ever met. pilate is SO loving & kind. trace is very patient & supportive. & when it comes to protecting brendan, pilate's a no-bullshit kind of guy & i get the feeling that, as mellow as trace is, he'd be fucking formidable if anyone really started messing around w/ the kid. pilate's got an excellent mix of seriousness & light-heartedness. he's usually the "heavy" when a heavy hand is needed. trace is far more laid back but not to the point of goofiness or irresponsibility. as for brendan, he's an unusually good kid. their household seems to have some sort of loving energy to it. i'm looking forward to traveling w/ the whole crew to mardi gras. i think brendan's gonna love it. the bad news is that it might rain. but would i stand in the rain like a damn lunatic to catch handfuls of cheap shiny beads? you betcha.

I can say that in my experience, about 98% of my gay friends knew that they were gay by about third or fourth grade. fifteen is definitely not too young to know what your sexual affiliation is, especially given the fact that teens devote a goodly portion of time to thinking about sex in general. I sorrowfully realized as a young adult that I could never become a lesbian, as much as it appealed to my sensibilities, my love for women in general, and my personal aesthetic. I remember a drunken conversation one night with my best friend Wendy, after many shots of tequila: Wendy- "I love you! Why can't you be a lesbian?" Me- "I just can't! I'm just not attracted to women!" Wendy- "But, why? I love you!" Me- "I just can't! I love you too, but I just can't!" Ahhh, the days of teen angst. Those memories are all so embarrassing for me now.

i've also met a lot of gay people who realized they were gay by the time they were in elementary school. i knew i was bi pretty early on. i didn't do much about it until i was 14. but in 8th grade, i ended up getting myself into a nasty non-consensual experience w/ a middle-aged woman. i didn't get a steady female partner (of my own age) until i was either 15 or 16. the girl was a year younger than me. we moved in together before i turned 17 & proceeded to live out one of the wildest, most memorable years of my life. we were both away from home, on our own, & just went fucking nuts. funny thing is, i'm a lot pickier about women then men. i'm very particular about what kind of woman i'm attracted to. i'm picky, but once i find the right woman, the attraction is fierce. i have almost a fetish-driven idea of what turns me on in a female. i remember being 13 & becoming very excited about hearing a rumor that a classmate of mine was a lesbian. the other kids said that if you ever went to her house to spend the night, she'd try to come on to you. i did everything in my power to get an invitation to her place, but the invite never came.

for my ninth birthday, i had my two best friends over to spend the night. we played truth or dare, and ended up getting into the basement shower together (fully clothed), kissing each other on the cheeks. it was considered a big deal at the time. none of us had ever heard of homosexuality, we were girl scouts and campfire kids.

see y'all later! pilate, pug, cap'n benteen & i are heading out for mardi gras. we should be back either late wed. night or sometime on thursday.

Laissez les bon temps rouler!

Pilate, it sounds like you and Brendan have both been through the ringer. It also sounds like you've all got a handle on everything. Hope you can get him passed the Agoraphobia. As for extremism you just seemed at bit defencive. Now I understand why. Good luck to you all.

Most my gay friends knew they were gay at a young age too, I rented that movie In and Out last week and thought it was funny.

we're back! we're also exhausted & sunburned as hell. seriously sunburned. we had a blast. caught about a million beads & other goodies...moon pies, toys & other stuff. tell ya more when i wake up. gotta crash.

Moon pies are DAMN HARD TO CATCH. One redneck on a float in the Krewe of Gemini Parade (Krewe of Who Dat?) stared directly at me and mouthed the words, "fuck you". I don't know why----as the parade ended, Crimson's old man, who's the last guy I'd have expected to keep things going since he by & large does not dig the parades much, urged us ontop the next block to catch the tail end of the parade AGAIN & scarf up more throws. I think Crimson & Pilate nabbed a few...I didn't----but I got to throw the Krewe of Who Dat moron the middle finger----so it was a worthwhile venture.

Moonpies are hard to catch and so are creole boys. I saw a real cute boy and I think he was queer he bat his pretty eyes at me. I love a good flirt, which I am my own self. I had so much fun I wish it was Mardi Gras evary damn day. this is a holliday I can get off on. I cot so much stuff its unreal bags and bags full of cool shit. I stil have a date with Dorian but it mite get moved up to Sat. because of some damn thing his Daddy want him to do. Thats okay. I can wait. My Daddy let me call up Dorian and give him the numbar to the motel room and he calls me back and we talk it was so good we only got 15 minits to chat but thats' fine I'm just real glad to here from him. The gulf of Mexico is so big and pretty I wish I coud win the lottary and take every body down there to live but Arkansas dont have a lotary so I am screwed and still have to live in the hills. Damnit.

the guy on the float (see pug's earlier post) really did look down at him & say "fuck you". was it pug's lovely dreds or his gorgeous t-shirt (church of the subgenius) that caused the old guy on the float to turn surly? the world may never know....

i'd like to take Lenny Bruce's stance on the phrase "fuck you". When people tell me to "fuck you", I like to say "thanks, i have and will" i fail to see the derogatory impact of that phrase.

except when it's being uttered by a scowling geriatric mummy riding a mardi gras float, perhaps.

Im eating one of the moonpies I caught down there and it is pretty good. And its Chocolate. I forgat how much I like the damn things. Moon pies are the 23rd food group. Good for your body and your soul.

Hey, Brendan....remember what yer Uncle Pug told ya....those Creole boys will break your heart, crack your skull and steal your wallet. This ain't no Interzone.

Yeah. But their so pretty. Just about every one was pretty but the guy on the float who gives you the finger. I even saw girls I think was pretty there. They were all punky with pink hair and stuff some of them wore fether boas and they look so cool. They wear glitter and 70s stuff and little bity tee shirts that show their little tittys. I was wonderen what it would feel like to touch them there its not sexy but just soft. I have touchet brests before and they are sofrt and warm. They do not make me feel any kind of sex kick but theyre nice and warm. The best looken girls were about my age and some were younger and dressed like total punks and had pearcings. We need more kids like that here.

no mugwump jizzum?

No mugwumps of any kind and no mugwump jism either. Now back to the tittys ladys and gents. Those girls were about 12 up to maybe 17 with no bras just tight crop tops. Some of them was standing with their Mammas who let them dress that way. Is it cool or scarey. You see the nipples and everything and pants so tite they look painfull but cute. Bell bottoms on most of them. The girls looked cooler than the guys who wore skuzzy crap like baggy pants which are no fun at all. Saw some guy about 30 with some chik about 12 draggen her long fake nails down his baer back. If I was gonna go for a girl I'd get me a wild one with freeky clothes and she could wear glitter in her hair, Girls look real cool but theyd be so scary to fuck.

what's mugwump jizzum? i'll go off the subject a little: i got my second email in a week from my friend chris today. chris is a boy i went to highschool with; tall, thoughtful and extremely intelligent...he decided that he wasn't going to go to college and is living on the beach in california. i was scared of him when we were freshmen but half in love with him through our junior and senior years. he was sort of a goth...maybe a bit punk too, but he was a major activist: president of writer's guild and the environmental club and vice president of the school. sometimes he'd wear skirts to school and nobody questioned who he was. i remember once how i saw a small lock on one of his shoes and asked him about it. his explanation: "people lock up their cars and their bikes, don't they? well, i'm locking my form of transportation." which seemed to sound really intelligent for such a silly thing.

mugwump jism: it's a reference to "naked lunch" by william s. burroughs. i knew a couple of cool guys like that when i was in school, too. they did whatever the hell they pleased & i thought they were great. one of them is now gay & married to a wealthy man. the other killed himself before the age of 18. my husband & i have both come down w/ some kind of nasty illness. guess we picked up more than beads at mardi gras. i feel like crap. i'm praying that pilate & his crew don't get it. i'm a little worried for brendan since he's spent quite a bit of time w/ me lately. misery. nothing like it. brendan's right...there WERE some pretty freaky looking kids at mardi gras. wish i could've looked half that cool when i was a teenager. my folks were seriously anal-retentive about what i wore. i used to sneak clothes to school & change there. i got caught at it, though. my mother dragged me in front of a mirror & gave me this longass lecture, punctuated w/ much hair-pulling, about how disgusting & sinful i looked in tight pants.

your friend sounds really really really confused pez. i've never know any punk/goth/activist rebellious teen to be veep of the school student body....(assuming thats you mean when you say "school vice pres") i was punk, i was goth, i broke "barriers" man, being one of the first white kids to join the Afrocentric Society, involved in the local school and city chapters of Refuse and Resist, Amnesty, PETA, NAARAL, and NOW....all that activist shit the last thing i wanted was to be involved with the pricks that "governed" the student body. those same pricks also (and I 've said it many times i think, but Im still in shock) voted me "most liberal" and "most revolutionary". i laughed at their nomination. I just smoked a lot of pot, took a lot of ephedrine, acid and other pills when we got our hands on them. My friend puked in French class from his grandpa's coedine he stole. We kept upping the anny in the bathroom between classes, and by 5th period we had taken some 4-5 odd coedine pills. Maybe it was the walk-out we started when the Rodney King verdict came in....we just walked across the street smoked one and went to last period...which was drama class...which was a 55 minute dick around. wow....now that i reminisce....i really miss drama class. i remember there was this sophmore cutie...she was this little skater betty...she had a crush on me....i was quite flattered nad loved the attention. she was very cool...and she let me experiment on her......in drama class that is. I had been reading Becket, Sartre and Harold Pinter that year so I was inspired by the mundane and grotesquely absurd. I remember, for my final, i had her stand at the very front of the stage, in an all white gown, reciting something obnoxious with blood everywhere(and vans tennies on ) and I sat in the back and recited silly fatalist dialog. i thought it was art, she thought i was some kinda hero. we made out on a golf course once. I think i was her first serious make out and that kinda weirded me out. soon after that i was on to college girls who liked to be on top. god i gotta start writing this shit down.

drama class. yeah. i remember doing that gig. my teacher hated my guts. i always did weird shit for my projects. i tended to address offbeat topics that the other kids usually found "too depressing". then again, the other kids staged a protest against having to read oscar wilde because his writing was "too complex". i don't miss high school. not one fucking bit. although i do occasionally miss having the body of a 16-year-old.

yeah, he was vice pres. he never ran for president, 'cause he found that all they ever did was plan dances and pep assemblies. i was the girl who had her hands in everything. i was a band nerd, drama geek, writer, philoph, irish dancer and francophile. i was the "voice" of the pep band, everyone heard my ululating cry at basketball/football games. then there was the time i was a mascot... mostly i was known for how much i read and write...my ap english teacher was highly impressed when i lent her my volume of poems...she gave me a list of 20-30 poems she liked of the lot, which is impressive because i almost never revise. i never had the 16-year-old body. being 6' at 15 with broad shoulders has a lot to do with that. i dressed in t-shirts every day my first three years, then only wore one once in my senior year...because brian spilled coffee down my back. i'm going to go to the free one-act festival at the highschool tomorrow...my ex and an old crush are directing plays and one of my friends from last year is starring in another.

I hated school. Every body was so mean there. Special ed is the worst thing in the world it is horable and people call you bad names. Home school is the best thing that ever hapen to me and I learn more now than I ever did in real school. School sux. And did'nt Bob Dylan say "20 years of schoolin and they put you on the dayshift". aint that about right.

Yep,this is a good as anywhere else to post this,I just found out that my grandson is going to special-ed classes and kids have been picking on him,he rides the short bus,yet he's been tested as gifted,that miserable bitch had him placed in special ed to build a case against my daughter.She's hurting my baby to hurt Amee.I'm fixin to end up in jail every since I found out about this. I've kept out of this custody mess for all this time,but now it's like bring it on.She's really fucking that kid up,and I hate her and want her to die,I could just cry.Is there no justice in this world? Any revenge ideas? Is there a way to post to boards anonamously ?

i'm really sorry to hear about that. my best friend was thrown into special ed as a kid...but the funny thing is, she's got an astronomical IQ. she's profoundly intelligent. but she didn't act like the other kids, so kaboom, they stuck her ass on the short bus. i was put into remedial classes in high school because i wasn't as "cultured" as the other honors students. so they put me in remedial classes as a punishment. it still blows my mind. i didn't play tennis at the county club or have a debutante ball, so they punished me by attempting to short-circuit my education. fucking barbarians. i was told that when i decided to exhibit signs of being cultured, i could make an appeal to re-enter the honors classes. i didn't. i stayed in the remedial class.

I was in special ed. classes from 3rd grade 'til 6th, and I required tutoring & special help in classes like math up through Junior High... Among other things I was hyperkinetic----I'd do wigged out shit in the middle of classes when I was a kid and have no idea I was doing it. So I rode the short bus----there was no real differentiation in those days----the retarded, the learning disabled, dysfunctional abuse kids, etc.....they all got lumped into the same classes.....

it's not fair. some of the sweetest people i've gone to school with were what people call "retarded". but they worked hard and treated everyone the same. they may not be smart, but i think they understand quite a few things that i can't. the people who make fun of the disabled/special ed people are often just skirting being placed in there themselves. they're usally the mallrats that say something intelligent once in a blue moon. my own experience has led me to believe that learning disabilities has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. from what my old psy said after i took an iq test, it's not a low iq that indicates a learning disability, but around a 15 point difference in types of iq that indicates. i never had to ride the short bus, but i did do some pretty stupid shit sometimes.

School pissed me off so bad Id' some times even cry when I had to go. Just to see the school siting there made me feel sick inside. It stands for every thing I hate and I wanted to blow up the school. but theyd just build another one of the damn things. REPRIEVE is one of this weeks vocabulary words for me. Droping out of school makes me feel like a got a reprieve from hell. Both my Daddys are real good teachers they are so gentle and kind but they do make me do my homework and there is no questin about it. It is what I have to do. I can tell theres been a change in me. I am beter with words than I used to be and I can add and subract easyer I can not divide tho, and its bad sence my bro. can and he is just a little kid.

I wish someone had adopted me the hell outta school. I was put on the short bus for being bilungal. Everyone was astonished when in third grade they realized I was reading Joyce. Whatever. After that, they basically let me do what I wanted--but the other kids beat on me all the same. Fuck that.

Amen. Fuck school. And now boys and girls I will tell you about my weard date last night it was real fun but did not go the way I plan. First thing is me and Dorian both got colds and are sick. He come over any way. We both feel like crap but wanted to be with each other. Some times I get panic atacks i don't know why but I do and I got one. I did'nt want to leeve the house. I was afeard to be away from my parants. Dorian was real cool and when I felt beter we did go out. On a duble date with my folks! We even call his folks and ask them to go but they said no. We go some place cheep for dinner and had lots of fun just talken and it hits me that I want to grow up to be just like my folks. They are so relax and they have fun no mater where you put them. I want Dorian to stay with me and I want us to be like my folks are now. We go home. Then Dorian and me go into the back yard with out my folks and we are alone.

In the back yard is where he kiss me for the first time. We have kist on the cheek and stuff beafore but not a real major kiss. We were kissen for a long time too.He tells me that he feals special around me and that every thing about me turns him on. I tell him nice stuff and he says more nice stuff and we kiss some more and it is good. I look up and what do I see but my Daddy Trace lookin thru the window like a spy. I wave at him and keep maken out. He waves and smiles and shut the curtin. Dorian and I kised and hugged but nothing more. We were good but, we were both real hot and turned on. He whispers into my ear something hot and it made me get a ten ton hardon but we resolve to be good and youd be proud of what gentlemen we were. I say unto thee we were damn near like angels! And he askt me for another date next week end.

Dorian called me today. I think he really likes me. It is wonderfull. I have a cold but I feel good anyway.

love is in the air, everywhere i look around love is in the air, every sight and every sound i've drunk like two bottles of wine.

you must really like wine.

well, i and another person went through two bottles of wine. i'm just trying to explain why i'm quoting sappy songs.

I've got a little Jefferson Airplane in my head: "I just need somebody to love." Sounds like a cool date, though.

it does sound cool. saturday i watched one-act plays for around 12 hours straight. then i went to dennys with a bunch of my old friend from highschol, the drama people. my ex didn't go to denny's but i told him about my zine and his role as giving me the energy. i think he was a little proud and sad that he couldn't tlak to me the way he used to. there was about 40 of us sitting around in denny's drinking milkshakes and throwing ice when people came in. we played telephone. keith began one with "the fearless die only once while the fearful die ever so many times" or something like that. it turned to "bill stickler wants to rock keith nasty". another started as "jay needs to borrow a kidney for 80 years" to "jay has alcohol poisoning and needs a new kidney" to "jay has poison ivy from masturbating with his kitty" (i made the additions to fabricate this one). fun fun fun. then there was interesting multi-topic conversation about how lame my sister is and why jordan was sniffing sugar (amoung other things). i promised several people copies of my zine and was one of the last to leave at 1:30 am. i like staying out late.

Staying out late is cool and so is drinking wine. I am not big on getin drunk. I wish I could once in a while with my friends. Not to get sick drunk but just tipsy. I like whisky beter than wine any day but chiks like wine so it is fun to give it to them and hear them laugh. Dorian has sayed before he likes shampain. If we keep dating maybe we can have an aniversery and drink some. His folks let him drink some times. Like wine with dinner. He does not seam like the type to get drunk which is real good because drunks are mean. I do not want a mean man I came from a mean family and want to escape all that. Beafore I got adopted my daddy got drunk and attack my sisters baby. He beat the baby up and whipt her with a belt too and my sister yell at him to stop. So he stabed her with a screw driver in the arm and there was a great big fight. She told the social workar and the bitch thinks my sister done the abuse herself and my sister almost went to jale again. I NEVER want to live like that again. I thank God for my new family every day. It makes me want to run out and hug both my Daddys bigtime. And, I am glad my little bro. is geting adopted out of that mess too.

oh man. stabbings are weird. i was stabbed once with a pencil...it was very calm. i remember being like "i'm bleeding...i should probably tell the teacher...and go to the nurse...so i don't get blood all over the floor..." very strange. every kid needs a loving home. i'm happy for you.

i was stabbed with a pencil....rather i was roughhousing with a friend....and being barefoot i somehow stepped on a newly sharpened pencil. it went about an inch into the bottom of my foot. the worst part, was sitting there with anticipation when my grandfather pulled it out....THEN the came the blood.

I accidentally jammed a pencil into my hand, once....6th grade....went into the meaty part of my hand below the pinky and oozed blood and lead....there's still a little thing of lead lodged in there and you can still see it. Maybe someday it'll work its way up to my brain and kill me..... NAH. You guys'd NEVER get that lucky.....

I'm happy too. Real happy. I got stabbed with a jack knife once. my older bro. asked me one day if I trust him. I tell him I trust him. He says give me your hand as a sign you trust me. So I do and he stabs my palm and my arm too and says let that be a lesson you fucking bastard NEVER TRUST ANY BODY. My mother herd me scream and came to see. He told her what he done and she thought it was so funny she damn near laughd her head off. I started to cry and she kicks me and says it's youre own fault stupid. But now things are diffarent. My bro. is in the pen and I am not. When my little bro. was a baby my big bro. fucked him in the mouth. He did it to me too but when I was oldar and, he put a gun to my head and rape me. I feel something scarey and mean when I think of all the bad shit him and my uncle did to me but I have to move on. If i think of nothing but bad thoughts I will become bad.

I was stabbed in the hand with a barbecue fork once--you know, those two pronged things?

That sounds decidedly unpleasant. My former lover was stabbed to death during a mugging. Brendan, I want to spend some time with you tonight. Let's hang out. I've been thinking a lot about you today. Gotta brag......Brendan aced a test this morning. And he's doing really well with his vocabulary words. He's really coming along. Makes me proud.

...........mixed emotions. sad for loss of life, although inevitable sooner or later. happy for brendan's progress. you go, boy! i was walking back to my car (it was parked beyond the gym after band and the guy walking right behind me was singing oldies. he was really good, i could tell he'd been trained. i got out my bottle and began blowing bubbles. i like life when it's lighthearted and there's some unique aspect aboput it that makes you smile. maybe everyone does. my sister has stepped on nails twice, going through her foot. i stepped on one once, but it slid in between my toes. am listening to "killing heidi" by mascara. the world needs more songstress bitches.

apparently my life was so safe i had to cause the damage myself once i was in the back of the station wagon waiting for my mom to come out to go somewhere, and i happened to notice the jumper cables lying there. i guess i found them fascinating. i picked one side up, squeezed it open, and proceeded to let it close on my tongue. yes i did. and i was too shocked to get it off myself. i had to wait with it on my tongue for my mom to get there.

i'm sorry, but i'm laughing.

me too

I'm laughing but it sounds pain full anyway. I am working today for Auntie Crimson she is payen me! I am packing boxs and paulishing silver and all kinds of things. what ever she tells me to do. Gainfull employment. I need the money. But I am too pretty to work too hard and I mite break a fingar nail! Weep for me my friends. I have been put to manuel labor.

so you got shocked by cables that weren't even attached to an electrical source? or were you in so much pain, you were in shock to do anything? I suspect, even though the cables werent hooked to anything, they may have a dormant, small amount of juice in them.... am I confused?

Yea,and dazed too!

I thought she meant shocked by the pain and stupidity of her actions. No offense meant, Heather -- sounds like something I could have done.

Mean while I am still working. Oh the horror of it all. Now I am siting on my sweet ass eating some chips but tell Crimson I am working real hard. And tell her I want some twinkies I need a good sugar rush. Not that I realy need to eat sugar since thats what I am made of. Yea though I walk through the valley of death I need my freakin twinkies. Sweet stuff for a sweet heart.

No body is talking to me. I will die of lonlyness. I will curl up in a little ball and die under a rock. Then every body will wish they talkt to me. But then I will be dead and I'll realy be screwed cause you can't eat twinkies from beyond the grave. I am in a silly ass mood somebody stop me. My friend Violet is home sick and I am maken a flower thingy to give her to chear her up. Dorian is sick too and I want to send him a real rose. I want to send him a dozn roses but when I found out what that costed I damn near died. Maybe I can find him 12 dandylions out of the yard.

thats a shame.......i couldn't believe how cheap roses and flowers in general are here in California. hey silly boy....can you rub your tummy clockwise and pat your head at the same time. How bout counterclockwise? perfecting that little jig helped me with coordination to play the drums

Yes I can do both those things! Thats because I am the archbishop of funk. I wish I had a drum kit but I am doing real good just to stand in front of a mike and sing. My band does not get to practis so much now that every one has tests at school or is sick.

there's plenty of time for rockin the gospel!

There is plenty of time for that. Excapt for this week when every body seams up to their ass busy and the whole damn worlds got the cold or flu. I gottta get on home soon I got one Daddy fixing dinner and the other wanten to teach me some History. The one thing I learn from history is that people were always fucked up its not just the modarn world. Even the Romans had a bunch of fuck ups so it is nothing new at all and viking kids did murders. so kids kiling kids is not new. People were pervs back then too not a damn thing new there. so, the only originle thing in this world is Captain Benteen. Thats right just me and my hot little ass. They will have to re write history books just to add my name.

you make 'em. i have a kick ass history book: the history of fashion. it was one of my mom's college textbooks and spans ancient egypt to the '50s. i was helping a lady this evening and she was buying toys for her sons birthdays. her grown up sons were complaining about not getting any toys anymore. i thought it was cute, then treated myself to a new barbie (i don't remember what happened to the ones i kept) and a genie costume for said barbie. i love barbie. she doesn't go to war. she's a teacher, she's a doctor, she's a model, she's an actress, she's a sister, she's a lover, she's adventurous, she's happy, she's comfortable, she's silly, she's a rocker, she's a swimmer, she's an athlete, she's a veteranarian, she's a teenager, she's...

made of plastic. but what the hell. who isn't these days?

She's been in the Army,Navy,and Airforce,and a cop.

I have a barbie. Ive had her for a real long time my big sis was throwin her away and I save her. When I was a kid I made up clothes for her. Thats about the time my family start knowing I am queer. In a note book I'd be drawen pix of Barbie outfits and what I'd like for her to wear but, I am not a great artist and I cant sew good. My family leave me alone about it cause when I was playing with Barbie I was very quiet and bother no one. I got a cheap Barbie and hugd her at nite while sleeping. I told her about my secrets like she was real I think I went crazy I was just a kid. I still have that dolly too. Her hair is all wild and I can not make it go back right so maybe she is punk now.

i once shaved a barbie because her hair was half afro half straight and then dubbed her "susan powter" my new barbie is cool. she doesn't have the lemonade bleach blond that most barbies do. instead she's more of a strawberry/honey blond and lavender eyes. she's not one of the new barbies with a belly button, but that's ok. i once made a slinkster cool barbie outfit out of paper and tape. it was custom-made...nothing else like it. but i never took a picture and i had to destroy it in order to change her clothes. i have a ken doll in my closet somewhere, i was going to make him a dress and wings so he'd be a drag queen fairy. when i was looking at the barbies last night, i saw a midge doll in a swimsuit and she had freckles! i had the bride midge when i was little but she didn't have any freckles. the new midge reminds me of punky brewster. whatever happened to punky brewster anyway? i used to watch both shows when i was really little.

I saw the Midge doll. I like the freckles. I got freckles but I am not gona say where. I will just say that some body told me about them while I was in bed. I got a stuffd teddy bear. I nevar had many toys but the ones I got I have keept and they are mostly girl toys. Auntie Crimson has about a milion toys I like them all. She is talken about moving away it makes me real sad I want her to stay here near us always.

oh.... :( nobody is ever too old for toys. unless they're truly grown up and lost causes, meaning dead as a doornail. my sister is one of those people that's decided that she's grownup. she'll be 16 in a few days and thinks i'm infantile all the time, and our parents too. she talks really loud about how fat she is and wears lavender-ice eyeshadow and makes a big show about how she's on the speech team and the bassoon player in her band. she learned to ride a bike before i did (on my bike), gave up her her dolls and barbies before i did. she goes on and on about the holocaust and charlie brown but that's all she ever talks about besides vanity and her friends and the next time they're going shopping. i love having toys sitting around. i have several stuffed animals in my room (including a sock doll i made) and puppets (directions are in the zine) and lots of crazy kooky stuff that i can't bear to throw away. it's a genune mess...but i love living in a mess. right now i'd say my favorite thing is my sketchbook, because i draw and write in it and all sorts of stuff emerges on the pages. i drew a picture of my friend k in it and he said that it wasn't him because it was too cute so i added mean eyebrows and a hand picking his nose. i want to hind a camera and take pictures of my barbie in different situations...it would make for a neat-o zine if i had pics of sylvie attacking her and all sorts of stuff. i wish i hadn't lost my camera because it had some good pics on the roll when i lost it.

i won't be moving until the end of summer, at earliest. & it probably won't be far. so don't worry, cap'n. i'll be around to feed you twinkies & generally pamper your ass senseless. it's cool. now please stop shedding purple sequins on my carpet. thanx.

i've just pulled out a ton of barbies & pseudo-barbies (barbie knockoffs) for brendan to check out. there are male & female dolls in this bunch. tons of them. the weirdest "barbie" i have is a knockoff that came w/ a black shirt covered in little skulls. i left that one in the original package. the only fancy barbie i have is grecian goddess barbie, which was given to me as a gift. she's now standing guard over the guest bedroom. i don't know how many hundreds of toys we've got here, but it's unreal. there are around 50 G.I. Joes alone. as a kid, i never had this many toys. but i married a toy collector & they've just kinda multiplied. people tend to look at us very strangely when they see the toys & then find out that we have no children.

Keep your toys. What you collect. Or, how you entertain your self is nobody elses business. I still have a lot of my old toys. And, my wife, my best friend, and I all collect teddy bears. It keeps us young and alive. So, definately keep your toys.

funny thing...both my husband & i, as children, were forced to give away our toys. his toys were all taken away by his step parents & given to more incoming stepchildren. mine were taken away for religious reasons (there's a biblical verse that says something to the effect of "put away childish things"). people in our small right-wing religious group interpreted that to mean that all toys were to be taken away from children, usually around the age of 8 or so. my comics and children's books were also burned. my toys were destroyed or given to small neighborhood children. my mother went up & down the street w/ the better toys, handing them out randomly. i had a beloved raggedy ann doll; the doll was given to an out-of-control neighborhood kid who ripped the doll's arms & legs off in front of me. that doll didn't last five minutes. i was forbidden to show any emotion about it whatsoever. i know it was just a cloth doll, but i felt as if i were watching a friend being dismembered. it made me ill. my husband & i have hundreds of toys & we're always glad to take in more. many of them were given to us. people think it's odd & my family thinks it's dangerous & pathological, but fuck it. it gives me joy.

Amen!!!

i dont trust anyone who collects teddy bears. thats just fucking weird man. an artist, perfomer, model friend of mine has one of the largest toy and specifically Barbie collections in the world....well maybe not the world, but at least los angeles. she has people come from europe to tour her campy house. ....here see for yourself http://www.lowbrowartworld.com/keri_french.html oh WOW....that picture at the bottom left, with the yellow background..i took! hmmm i should get credit but it was with her digital camera....eh fuck it. you can see her barbie artwork here http://www.artlala.com/french/

credit? ok, you've got credit. what do you want, a free game?

These Barbies are different as well http://www.hecklers.com/darbies/

hey jerry....eat a dick eh you notice the picture is from an LA times online story you prickface.

you're very touchy, aren't you, patrick? what's your problem? no i didn't notice that. that changes everything. obviously you deserve more than one free game of credit. you deserve a tv show about your life! what should it be called? "the geena davis show" has already been taken.

yes im touchy this morning. for reasons i can't go into. so heckling from an annonymous person may be met with more than its worth i think Gina's really hot.

Patrick, We're all weird or haven't you noticed. Better to be weird than insane. It's the insane ones that grab AK47s and start shooting people.

yesh...then there's jail to follow.

only if they catch you.