I just got a call from my daughters 2nd grade teacher. Whenever a kid gets in trouble they get 1 warning and then they have to go to the "safe spot" and fill out a "think sheet" about what they did wrong and what they could do better. Hayley has been bringing home a lot of these. She ususally has to write standards, and have a family discussion about it and be grounded. About 2 days before she was released from her last grounding (new think sheets add on more time) she got a think sheet to bring home, and she hid it and forged my name and gave it to her teacher swearing that I signed it. She also has gotten another one and done the same thing. I have tried taking away priveleges, belongings, goundings, favorite foods, making her discuss why, and how to better handle the situation later, writing standards. Nothing is working, because now she is sneaking and lying intentionally to try to keep out of trouble. I am really at a loss now, and I don't know what to do. Any ideas would be helpful.

What is she doing that's getting her in trouble at school?

Talking out of turn, talking during tests, disrupting the teacher and other students, not keeping her hands to herself, pooping in her pants so she doesn't have to use recess time to use the toilet, not listening during class, not doing her work. She has flunked every math test so far this year, and we have been working with her all summer and after school. She has been lying a whole lot. We have been trying to get the lying under control for almost 2 years now, but obviously nothing has worked, cuz she will constantly just spit out white lies without even thinking before she talks.

She has a learning disability,my grandson Jonathon is going to a speacial school for it (this runs in my family I had it too, so did my kids).She should be tested for it.Jonathon is 7,he also has been tested as gifted,and he is.

I have had her tested for ADD, and there wasn't any concern, from what I understand. Her biological aunt is learning disabled. What kind of disorder am I looking at. I am not sure what direction to go in to get help, and right now we could all use some help, and some understanding. I wouldn't doubt it at all if Hayley came back as gifted. She can get 100% scores on material we have never even presented to her. She really struggles with math, and handwriting (she still gets #s and letters backwards), but everything else seems to really come naturally to her. I guess I am just trying to figure it all out. Should I call her doctor?

I'd have her tested for A.D.D. somewhere else and for hyperactivity.

Hold on........hold everything. See what spider says before you do anything. She's pretty keen on these matters.

Is Boo home yet?

I just had a long talk with her teacher. SHe was getting a bit more specific. She says she thinks that Hayley doesn't have any kind of learning disability. Actually, if she slows down and takes more care in doing her work, then she makes excellent grades. She rushes herself, and she tends to be too social, interrupting and talking over others and the teacher. This is the biggest problem in school. She said that Hayley genuinely is a good student, it is just harnessing her potential and getting the behavior under control.

In other words. She is a normal kid. Just remind her every day she has to calm down in class. Eventually she will.

i was going to say, i dont think theres any cause for testing or medication here. i used to be called on all the time for talking when i shouldnt..."being too social" as they called it. "His grades would be so much better if he applied himself and didnt talk when he's not supposed to" they would say as far as the lies....I would say some creative parenting might come in here on your part. Maybe she just doensnt understand such lies have ramifications. perhaps you teach a lesson by example.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the teach a lesson by example thing. I have tried to show her consequences for lies. Loss of privileges, loss of friends, these things have happened to her in the past. She doesn't like it when the kids make fun of her, but somehow she isn't making the connection between the lying and the consequences. Patrick, you pretty much described her when talking about yourself. I am a very social person by nature, but wasn't in school. I never had friends as a child because of the way I looked. I just wish I knew what to do. I am lost right now.

Well...here's an example. recently our close friends' 3 year old said some REALLY disturbing things to his step-pop and mom. For example he said "Mom I dont love you any more" and then he said to "Tiga" (his step dad) "I don't want to be your friend anymore". At first they were like...."H...you dont mean that." and He would nod his yes. So finally "tiga" said "ok fine H...that means no more trips to the ice cream shop with me...no more cruising in the car listening to Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre, no more playing firefighters" and so on. And he walked away. The next morning the boy came in and wanted to play and "Tiga" said "Well im not your friend anymore so we can't play together" That set it home as to the impact of what he had said. It was clear he was saying these things, without really knowing WHAT he was saying. He was very very remorseful and apologized profusely. The boy never ceases to amaze. He's a very keen 3 year old....which I think alot has to do with the fact the his parents and us adults that hang with him talk to him, in a lot of ways like an adult. Kids are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for and I think treating them like we would an adult...in this example, who would hang out with someone that isnt their friend...made him realize that he had hurt their feelings. I absolutely love H to death. He especially loves my wife "miko". do you see what i mean? Perhaps simply punishing her, grounding her, taking away privileges when she lies isnt enough, because then she just has resentment for you. I dunno, i don't have any kids myself...so Im really not a good person to talk to on this matter.

how much sugar does she get? even "natural" sugars like fruit and such. i find that cleo, within 15 minutes after a popsicle, will become very hyper, completely stop listening, and just behave badly, in general. after a couple hours, she's all cranky and uncooperative. i really shouldn't give ger as many treats as i do, which really isn't that much but kids just don't need candy. they actually start lying and sneaking to get more, much like drug addicts. have you had her blood sugar checked? or maybe just refuse to give her anything with added sugar for a month. see if it tapers off.

Already did the sugar thing. She has some minor health problems (from being preemie) that make it so that certain things give her kidney stones. She can't have sugar, low sodium and high potassium. She started passing kidney stones last spring and these changes in her basic diet have made it so she doesn't have any problems with that any more. It is a normal thing for preemies. They are at risk of a certain illness nicknamed neck and the medicine they give to help prevent it (it causes total renal failure) can cause kidney stones.

well, you might bring this up with her doc. you probably already have. if she's having issues with sugar, that could be a contributing factor. it may just be something she needs to grow out of. cleo goes through distinct phases. poorly behaved for a few months, well behaved for a few months. . . maybe see a dietician. wheat and soy can also profoundly affect a person's mental state. i guess i'm saying that i don't think she's a bad kid by nature but she might just be having a hard time concentrating due to nutritional imbalances and their effect on her own physiology. something all the discipline in the world won't fix.

i should say wheat and soy can affect a person sensitive to them.

Dave, I think you may have given me what I needed. It may be nutritional imbalances. She is not by any stretch of the imagination a bad kid. She is having a problem, that I haven't been able to help her. Her sister used to see a nutritionist all of the time, maybe this is what I need to look into with her doctor. Thank you.

I sometimes babysit this little girl who is in Kindergarten and she is on a "special diet" b/c she has the same problems as your daughter in school. She can't have anything to drink other than water and Crystal Light when she is at my house. The Crystal light replaces the fruit juice (b/c even fruit juice has too much sugar for her). She can't have any complex carbs either (no breads or pastas or anything like that). She can have all the meat she wants. I don't know the exact diet that she has, but if you're interested, I'll call her mother and get as much info as I can. Let me know.

Pardon me,but I do have some input into this,I was one of "those " kids.I use to get my lips taped up and have to stand outside the classroom.No kid wants to be humilliated like that.Sometimes you just can't get a grip.

J, I don't know if this will help any, but I would never tape her mouth shut and make her stand outside the classroom. I am waiting for life to settle down a little and then, when things get a bit more manageable I am going to sit in on her class for a day. I know she isn't going to act the same way she does when I am not there, but at least I can watch for some behavioral triggers and discuss things with her teacher. Pamela, thanks for the offer about the diet, but I think the one that Hayley is on is different. I have to pack the carbs on her, because she only weighs 40 lbs. She doesn't gain weight well. She stayed at 28 lbs. from when she was 2 years old to right before her 5th birthday. She got taller, but doesn't gain weight well. I am the same way and so is her baby sister.

Does she have asthma?

Yes she does. Why do you ask?

taping a childs mouth shut is abuse, as far as Im concerned. do you think sitting in class with her will help? i would think not because a) its only going to make her feel singled out, because no other parent would be there b)you arent going to see the behavioral patterns that are apparently the problem here. I would be totally humiliated if my mom sat in my class with me. Further, as a teacher, Im not sure I would allow it, because it could be a distraction to the others. No?

taping a childs mouth shut is abuse, as far as Im concerned. do you think sitting in class with her will help? i would think not because a) its only going to make her feel singled out, because no other parent would be there b)you arent going to see the behavioral patterns that are apparently the problem here. I would be totally humiliated if my mom sat in my class with me. Further, as a teacher, Im not sure I would allow it, because it could be a distraction to the others. No? what about a school counselor who sat in for observation?

I had my mouth taped at school,had to stand in the corner in school,it was abuse and you couldn't get away with that now thank God.I asked if she had asthma because I have it too and I'm convinced it had something to do with my medication.Everyone wants to be accepted,I wasn't stupid I knew what was up, I just couldn't help myself,couldn't shut up to save my life,it was like speeding.

have you thought about checking out some other schools where she will have more individualized attention? sometimes private school can be really worth the money, the small class sizes really help as far as kids with special classroom needs go. other than that, i'm with dave about the diet issue. i don't think people have even close to a clue when it comes to the effect that sugar can have on a child. i think it's usually the earliest addiction for most people.

I have been following up on the diet thing. I don't allow sugar in her diet, except for the occasional piece of fresh fruit, I have to give her fruit or she will develop kidney stones again. I have looked into a couple of the other schools in the same district, what a difference. Sitting in a class was the teachers idea. I know that she will feel a little different that day and her behavior patterns won't be the same. I would be looking at how the teacher interacts with the class and individual students. I will be looking at how the students interact with each other, and the kind of learning environment this class is. I think that her teacher is a progressivist, which I am. I just need to see if this is the right kind of class for her, or if there is something better suited. I would love to be able to put her in private school, but out here they are way too expensive, and they don't really have room now that the magnet schools have closed and Kansas City has totally lost its state accreditation. If I can find a school for Hayley, they don't have room for Mikayla, and vice versa. It is a sucky situation with the private schools out here. I miss California. At least I could get the girls into St. Catherine's, and get the alumni discount, since they would be the 3rd generation there. Sux to be here.

If she has speacial needs and the school distict doesn't meet the federal guidelines,you can make the school distict pay for a private school that will.It's alot of work though,you have to get a advocate for her,it's alot like going to court.We did it when Heather was in highschool,had I known about it before,I would have starter at kindengarten.

special district started fuckit

Eri: Is Mikayla involved in any sports or physical activities outside of school? Maybe she needs more time to burn off some ofher physical energies so she can focus in class & behave better. The bit abt her pooping in her pants to avoid missing recess time for a bathroom break seems significant. 1st of all/is the the teacher letting her go the the loo when she needs to/rather than making her wait until a specific time? That's intolerable. Try finding a yoga class for her. They have parent-&-child yoga classes now. I'm not a yoga-meister/but going thru the poses -- even a 15-minute mini-session -- does calm me & get my mind focused again when I'm stressed or tense. And 2nd graders are, what, 7 or 8 yrs.old? No normal, healthy 8-yr-old wd be crapping in her pants intentionally -- it's too embarassing. Maybe the teacher isn't letting her go to the bathroom when she needs to becuz it's more convenient for *her* to make the kids wait 'til recess. Which is insane. But she doesn't sound like she needs medication or special ed classes. She might have more pent-up physical energy in her than the other kids/so she needs an outlet for that. Yoga's great becuz it's abt the mind & the body all at once. You have to really focus on yr execution & feel yr body responding as you move in & out of the poses. And before you know it/yr mind is clear & yr breathing is deep & fluid & yr muscles & limbs are obeying you precisely. And you feel focused & powerful & very alert/but also very relaxed & peaceful/at the end of a session. If I had kids/they'd all be in yoga class. Hell, I'd put the cats in a yoga class if I cd find one!

I have been saying for a while that I wanted one for me. Hayley used to take dance (Mikayla is the 2 year old). She was really enjoying it. She was quite talented. She made dance her #1 priority, and school got even worse. She hasn't put enough attention on school yet. When she understands what a priority it is then maybe I will let her into another dance class. I have found a wonderful school out here, with decent rates, and they don't send the children to competitions. If she could get the school thing straightened out, then I would gladly enroll her in there. Then again, I am partial to the owners, because Van is the director and Suzie is the choreographer for the plays I do. Yes, the teacher doesn't give the kids hall passes to use the toilet without removing some of their recess time. It is really rediculous. I have told the teacher that it is rediculous when my child thinks that they have to lose priveleges to go to the bathroom, and is so scared to ask that she winds up crapping in her pants when she is 7 years old. There needs to be toilet useage flexability. She said that if she doesn't punish them for leaving class to use the bathroom, then they will take advantage of the bathroom as a way to get out of class. These are 7 year old kids. I understand that they have things they have to learn, but they also still need to be kids. I am wondering if the teacher isn't a lot more strict with the kids and the rules than I origionally thought. Then again, she treats me like an uneducated idiot, who she will just tolerate. Funny thing, she only has 3 years of schooling on me. I know her major, it was mine. I may not know as much as her about actually teaching, but I do have her out-experienced in the child part. I am wondering if this classroom environment has too much pressure for conformity. That would set Hayley off. She is strong willed and refuses to conform, unless it is her peer group, that is a whole other story for a whole different time. Allrighty then, I am babbling now, and haven't acheived my coffee haze yet, so I am going.

"She said that if she doesn't punish them for leaving class to use the bathroom, then they will take advantage of the bathroom as a way to get out of class." That's insane. Does the principal know she has this policy? The school counselor? Tell them.

yeah. go above her head about this. a child shouldnt be made to feel he or she will loose play time because they have to go to the bathroom. thats ridiculous. if we were talking about 10-11 year olds here, and limiting their bathroom time to inbetween classes or else taking away their free period, thats one thing. But 7 year olds....havent completely mastered body control.

About the dance classes... have you told her that if she starts to put more emphasis on school that she can start again? I'm not an expert, but I know bribery worked wonders for me.

Also, why would a second-grade teacher think her kids were trying to find ways to sneak out of class? What's wrong with her classroom that she would think kids are trying to escape? Do you know any of Hayley's classmates' parents? What do they think of the teacher?

This is a new school for us, so we don't really know the other parents yet. I think you guys are starting to understand why I want to watch the class. The principle is fully aware of the bathroom policy and he is a dope. I thought he was a dope when I met him before. He blames kids for not communicating with parents, instead of taking responsibility for not having a good way to get letters to parents. I have told her if she gets her school together, then we will let her have dance class again. Bribery only kinda works for her, cuz she will sneak to get what was promised. I know, typical 7 year old.

If you don't work,volunteer to be a classroom helper,that's what I did the whole time my kids were in elementary school,and you can scope out the teachers,you can request a certain teacher for the next school year too.

"And 2nd graders are, what, 7 or 8 yrs.old? No normal, healthy 8-yr-old wd be crapping in her pants intentionally -- it's too embarassing. Maybe the teacher isn't letting her go to the bathroom when she needs to becuz it's more convenient for *her* to make the kids wait 'til recess. Which is insane" I agree that waiting till recess is insane, HOWEVER* The deal is that the teacher is asking this question of the students so that if they say yes, they are willing to give up five minutes, then they must need to go for real. Seven year olds are capable of lying, you know. One of her (Hayley's) hobbies is needing to go potty when we are in a store she has never been in before. Even though she just went five minutes ago, and five minutes before that, and five minutes before that. We have gone through the business with two seperate doctors to see if she does indeed have a medical condition to cause this. Maybe there is a medical condition that only affects her when we are at a sore or restraunt, and makes her need to go to the bathroom every five minutes, but does not affect her at home. She can go all night without using the potty. She has chosen to shit her pants instead of missing recess. She has done this five times so far. And she tells us she does not want to miss recess, so it is a decision she is making. That fundamental thought process is a problem. If you gotta go, you gotta go. It distresses me that she has not even the smallest grasp of the "consequenses of your decisions" concept. Don't let her fool you. She is actually very smart. You can see it in her eyes. She watches your reactions to what she says, and modifies what she says accordingly. She forged eri's signature, and hid the letter in her room, then took it back to school. The next letter, of course, was stapled with the original letter. She threw that away. I did a lot of these things when I was a child,but the forging and the hiding did not come into play until the 8th grade, when I used to make sure I got the mail (letters from the school always seem to come in on Saturday, just to ruin your weekend as well as your week) and discarded all letters from school. I am sure most kids did this. But in the second grade? I was also on "special diet" when I was a kid. I was not even allowed ketchup because of the sugar thing. Nothing with tomatoes or sugar. But Mr Goodbar's were ok????? Made up, I guarantee. She lies like a rug, she hides things, so this makes me ask myself "WHy does she do this? Are you making her scared to tell you the truth? Does she fear me?" I lied to my mom because I was scared shitless of her. And I had good reason to be. I remember one day I stayed home because it was parent teacher confrences. She called the school to say she would not be able to make it in. The teacher called her back and they had their conference on the phone. When mom got off the phone, she proceeded to choke me, and do the whole stomping in the ground thing because I wore my glasses backwards to get a laugh out the class, and I wore my snow boots all day, did not change into my tennis shoes and things like that. I also did not finish *gasp* my school work all the time. I remember coming too from passing out, and hearing mom to get her the belt for something else from that phone conversation..... So I try to never be physical at all with my kids. We talk a lot. We explain how her lying hurts us, and makes us sad, and how people wont be her friends if she lies to them. We ground her. We take away her toys, everything. Nothing works. She lies some more while she is grounded. Her latest episodes occured during a grounding session. When you talk to her, she looks at you like "you are boring me, are you finished yet?"

maybe she does need an asswhoopin. not a choking til unconsciousness but a clearly defined escalation process where every step up the process is completely up to her. if she fails to obey, she is warned what will happen next and made to understand that it is her choice that determines what happens next. she can do it the easy way or the hard way but either way, she will do it. i've had to paddle cleo's butt maybe 3 times, the last time being several years ago. now, i just have to use THE VOICE and THE WARNING and it seems to be enough. hell, she tells on herself now. just yesterday, from out of nowhere, she confessed sneaking candy months ago and showed me the empty wrappers. i thanked her, told her she was not to have treats for a week and gave her a big hug and we talked about why she felt she needed to sneak and why i don't always say yes when she asks for a treat and about being responsible for what we do. (my self-observer got a real kick out of it, i can tell you.) i think some smart kids realize that words don't hurt and grounding isn't all that bad. they make you escalate the severity of the discipline. but i think they also crave discipline, as bizarre as that may seem.

Trace, I forged my mother's signature (or, uh, tried to) when I was 6, in first grade, because I forgot to bring the test home for her to sign and didn't want to get in trouble at school. I don't think 7-year-olds are capable of calculated sneakiness, like a older kid is. Kids her age usually work on an avoid-pain/acquire-pleasure level, so if she's doing something sneaky it's probably because she thinks being forthcoming is going to get her punished. My mother completely ignored me when I was bad. Meaning, she wouldn't talk to me, wouldn't help me get dressed, wouldn't give me a bath, wouldn't serve me dinner, wouldn't put me to bed, etc. I learned that it was a real pain in my ass to make her mad because then I'd have to do all this work myself. When I was older (high school), I didn't have a car or phone or TV and I didn't go out a lot (i.e., there weren't too many priviledges for my parents to take away), so they would take the door off my room because they knew I really liked my privacy. (Then again, I think they were big jerks for doing this, so I don't want to give you ideas...) Maybe you're not taking away the right things, or in the right amounts, or ... etc.

seven year olds are definitely capable of calculated sneakiness. in fact, two year olds are capable of sneakiness. it's rather frightening. i consider cleo to be a pretty honest and moral kid, and she can be really sneaky at times.

One time, my brother pissed himself rather than have to quit an arcade game. Probably has no bearing on your problem though. It does seem weird that your 7 year old doesn't seem to have a problem with defecating in her clothing. Have you tried asking her why she thinks that's ok? Maybe you could ask her why she thinks she's a baby? A lot of kids are mortified if they think their parents or other adults consider them to be younger than they are. Maybe you could just make her run in place til she drops every time she does it. Wait, you'll be jailed for that. I guess I don't have any good advice.

Sneakiness, yes, but sneakiness with malice behind it, no. Or, I don't want to believe it and will put my fingers in my ears and start singing if you tell me otherwise. I'm still pretty sneaky.

I am not sure it is malice, but obtaining instant pleasure, yes. Like I said, she lies like a rug. She ran quite a scam on us last year, took us a month to catch on to it. We sent her to school with lunch money everyday. One day, the school called saying that Hayley owed some $25 in lunch charges. Impossible, we say, we send her with money every day. "She has been charging breakfast and lunch". Again, we say Impossible, we feed her breakfast every day before she gets on the bus.... She had been spending the lunch money on pens and pencils and papers out of those vending machines they have at school, and hiding the charge slips the school sent home with her. She knew then full well what she had been doing. Needless to say, she brings her lunch everyday since then. Two weeks ago friday was test day at school. She took a math test and a spelling test. She showed us the letter saying she got 100% on the spelling test, but she took the math test earlier in the morning and she said it was not graded yet. We praised her for the spelling test and let her have coke with dinner and a dessert (huge treat since she is on a low-sugar diet). The, low and behold, the following tuesday we got a letter from the teacher attached to the math test. It was dated for Friday, she earned a 57%, but since she was talking to other students durring the test, she got a 0. I then proceeded to tell her that she was not in trouble for 57%, that just meant I was not doing enough to help her with her math homework, but lying to us about the test and talking durring the test (talking in class is a HUGE problem as well) was very wrong. But, she was already under a three week grounding from TV, Toys, Radio, social stuff, you name it. What else were we to do? Ground her from reading? That was about all that was left. Her TV and VCR and Video Games are now in storage in the basement. We are allowing her to stay in the living room and watch whatever we have on tv because of the situation with her great grandma and the fact that ALL of the family from California is here, most of whom she has never met. What does she do now? Lie more and get snotty with us. Yesterday I was getting her ready for school and told her it was time to go outside to catch the bus, and she looked right at me and said "I don't leave until 8:02" in a voice like a parent correcting her naughty child. It was 8:01. I just gave her a look that made her drop the subject and get outside....

This girl is going to be president of the United States one day.

i dunno man....it sounds like in some instances the girl just needs more discipline. but but...im realyl hesitant to say that. growing up...thats what they kept saying about my brother...that he just needed more discipline, more structure, someone to stand up, put their foot down and say "listen kid, you don't run the show we do, like it or not". But you know, that just made him react negetatively even more. Im afraid if you turned up the pressure its just going to push her further away from you, and i can only imagine when she grows up to the double digits. I wouldnt give her the pleasure of TV with you at night. Does she get much homework at her age?

We give her extra homework. For obvious reasons. She is struggling with math, so we give her extra math practice to help her. We give her extra spelling homework and reading homework, because she is so advanced in these areas and we don't want her to slack off just because she is successful at it. Laziness sux and we don't want to encourage those things in her. She does it enough on her own.

We're talking abt USING THE BATHROOM here! For a 7 yr old. With a tiny little bladder. I am a 40-yr-old experienced-but-not-habitually excessive-drinker. I have a Bar Code: Don't break the seal until you're into yr 3rd drink. Otherwise/I'm in the loo after every 3rd sip. Which wd be ridiculous. And if the loo looks nasty/I won't break the seal 'til I get home. (Or I'll sneak into the men's room.) My bladder is the size of Cleveland. I can go thru an entire 8-hr-shift @ work w/out using the loo. (Unless it's a day when I've got my .) But it took me half my life to develop that skill! Any child under 10 shd be allowed to use the bathroom whenever he or she wants to. Period. That's why they have passes & hall monitors -- to make sure yr kids don't run for the border or sneak off to twist up a spliff on a bogus bathroom break. Nothing interesting or dangerous happens in elementary school bathrooms. If a kid is there/it's becuz they have to go. Any teacher who deducts a child's bathroom breaks from their recess is a fucking Nazi. That shit has to stop, Eri. Tell the teacher in no uncertain terms that YOUR CHILD gets to use the bathroom whenever she wants w/no deduction from her recess/or you'll go to the school board & the local newspaper w/the quickness. Then if Hayley goes to the bathroom more than 4 times during the course of the day/tell the teacher to call you at home & you'll address the problem. But a kid who can get thru the entire night w/out using the loo doesn't have elimination problems. She might be shitting on herself just to spite the teacher for being such a Nazi. (Becuz then she gets sent home/so she's out of class for the rest of the day/right? Homegirl knows how to work the system!) Which is mad gutsy/in a twisted sort of way. Sure/it's a hassle now. But think of it, Eri -- when Hayley's 12 or 13 & all the other girls are morphing into brainless boy toys/she'll be 1st chair in the hr. high school orchestra/& running the 440/& kicing ass on the Debate team. Becuz she won't let ANYONE push her down or or dick her around over some bullshit. Isn't that the kind of girl every mom wants their daughter to become? I'm only raising cats/but if I had a kid/I do my level best have her turn out to be an Alicia Keys rather than a Destiny's Child. Ya dig? Some kids have a will of iron. A teacher isn't supposed to break that will -- a teacher is supposed to know when to pick her battles & when to cut a kid some slack who has the goods to do well in class but will only do well on her own terms.

Have been in an elementry school lately? I dropped her off this morning, and wow have they made changes. They inspect the book bags and put them in plastic bags and not let the kids get back in them until they get ready to go home, period. They watch the halls like police. And some kids (like mine) think they are the boss and they make the rules and parents and teachers bend to their will. No repsect for rules.

be a hard ass

I remember a girl in grade school who pissed on herself in 1st grade,it followed her through the years,I don't even know her name cause eveyone called her puddles.Let's face it,kids are cruel,do her classmates know she has pooped her pants? They might be picking on her now,and don't count on the teacher being honest with you.They use to tell me Heather had friends,till I went to school and saw her by herself, all the time.

pooping pants, car sickness, special diets, chronic underweight....all these must drive you collectively up the friggin wall.

Ah, but then there are the times when you get to spoil them, then send them home to mom and dad. Oh, and the questions! "How much water is in a watermelon? If there's no milk in it, why do we call it the Milky Way?" My good buddy finally just got a book that explains those things so she could answer her kid.

Kids are fuckin mean... No ifs ands or butts about it... Kid all of them are crule, unless they are the target of the crulty... Which I was most often. Fuck kids.

Yes, it does collectively drive us up the friggin wall. Sometimes we just don't know what the hell else to do. We have even done the drill sergeant thing. It only works for a couple of hours at best. Then she turns into a smart ass. When Hayley was 3 I used to say "Calgon, take me away". Now I say fuck the calgon and bring on the booze.

A smart ass isnt a smart ass when they spend the entire weekend in their room only to come out for meals, bathroom and bath time. if the smart ass gives you an lip at the dinner table...off she goes in mid meal. Kids dont like to go without dinner. But wait...she has health issues....so missing a meal for her wouldnt be like a normal kid skipping dinner. danngit

Don't think she doesn't mouth off at the dinner table, or right before bedtime, or right before she leaves for the bus stop. Health issues suck, but sometimes she still goes to bed with a meal half eaten. I keep saying I am going to buy her a bar of "Lifeboy" soap for next time she mouths off. I just wish I knew what I could do to get her behavior under control without beating her ass regularly.

childhood discipline as a whole scares the shit out of me (i had none) but can i make an observation? i've never seen grounding work on a large scale. Ever. At any stage of life, but especially not on 7 year olds. I mean, it's not like they've got car use that you can take away, amd i doubt they're out partying. The only time i've seen it work is once in a blue moon around grades 7-10, and even then, only for extreme things. Everyone i know who was grounded at regular intervals lost the point of it and grew pretty fucked up. i'm just saying.

warning: I only skimmed this thread. I had the opportunity to grow up from age 5 with two different families. My parents split up and I spent 20 days/month with my mom and 10 with my dad. My father grounded me once. One time. For one night. It was very effective. I was grounded more often than not at my mother's. She tried taking away everything concievable. I would end up sneaking behind her back, lying, etc... My dad would talk to me, about the REAL, natural concequences for things. My mother would introduce artificial consequences. When my father talked to me, he really talked to me. My mother lectured me. I'd give her the bored face. I was a horrible kid. I wasn't exactly an angel at my father's place, either. But for the big stuff, I respected my dad and didn't want to make him angry, but my mother was a nuisince. My mother wanted me to "live up to my potential" and wouldn't let one little thing get by without punishment. My dad wanted me to be happy and was willing to forgive after we'd talked about it. When you're always grounded, it's not a punishment anymore. It's just a really sucky life. My mother's ragging on me drove me over the edge, once. I had bent the blade on our lawnmower because I hit a tree root. It was an accident caused because I was trying to get it done as quickly as I could. My mother saw it as an excuse to get out of finishing the lawn and started her lecture machine. She took the opportunity to rant on my recent lateness and bad grades and dirty room... And I grabbed her by the shoulders and screamed at her that I wasn't making fucking excuses and she should allow me to make a mistake once in a while. Just keep in mind that discipline shouldn't come before your relationship with your child.

Nuff said.

but it is not just about discipline. It is about how you are going to be as an adult. how you are going to conduct your daily life. sure, most of it is still to come, but the foundation starts now. Everything else is based on what principals we lay down now. Integrity. Honesty.

honestly, you guys, it sounds like the young lassie could use some therapy.

Or more chores. HAve clean out the stables or something.

Trace, don't forget that she's 7. Integrity is a hard concept for a 7-year-old to grasp. You could always tell her that lying makes the baby Jesus cry. :)

Hey, like that Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey - "Whenever a child asks me why it's raining, I tell them it's because God is crying. And when they ask why God is crying, I say it's probably because of something you did."

Heh heh heh. I'm kidding, though. Shaming is no way to discipline your kids.

i'm not sure if therapy is right. it *SEEMS* absurd, but maybe its the best way. I dunno. Stand your ground though, as parents. Caving in, it sounds like the girl would walk all over you.

to me, it sounds like it's more than just discipline problems. your daughter seems to be needing something that she's not getting, and therapy can help you to figure out what that is and the best way to deal with it. all of these heavy handed recommendations aren't going to do jack for hayley, and more chores or grounding are just going to send her a negative message and make her more defiant. of course, this is just my opinion, and i haven't had to deal with the same issues, so maybe i'm just talking out my ass. i know for sure that more discipline isn't going to help a child who is shitting her pants in class. that is a behavioral issue, not an issue of respect.

I discovered last night that I have no idea how to study. I was up all night trying to study and ignore this cold and being relatively sure that I was studying the wrong stuff the wrong way. But I think maybe I did alright on the test. Damn, but tests make my back hurt. I'd crash, but I have to go work now.

i was horrible when i was little, but later on i was just scared. therapy can be wonderful, but another thing i'm wondering is how much "quality time" do spend together? maybe she wants attention.

you don't seem to mention any "positive reinforcement". my parents used to pull me out of activities because of how bad i was and that only made me worse. have you tried asking her why she does things?

Positive reinforcement is good. When I took my educational psych class, it was stressed to us that if you decide that if you decide to punish a behavior, you have to stick with it. You can't give in. Like, if you're trying to train a kid that whining isn't going to get him anything, and you decide to ignore him, you can't ignore him for a half-hour and then give in. Because then you're teaching him that he has to whine for a half-hour before he can get what he wants. And he'll do it. Praise her lots when she does the right thing. Give her treats and priviledges when you're happy with her, and act very pleased and affectionate.

"When you're always grounded, it's not a punishment anymore. It's just a really sucky life." TBone's on to something, Trace and Eri.

diversion tactics work wonders to a whiny kid. i had to apply that this weekend, at the grocery store with my 3 year old pal H and his mom. He wanted some "Teddy Grahams" and she wouldnt let him have those or animal crackers due to the "junk" in them. This explanation and substitution of good ole fashion graham crackers was not sufficient, so he started his whine. I quickly engaged in a diversion tactic to get him over to the produce department and look at the pumpkins while his mom finished the shopping. worked well and he quickly forgot about the Teddy Grahams. I hope to avoid bringing my leetle one, if i ever have one, to the store. To many shiny sparkly attractive, yet bad, things for kids to see there.

Dude my little sisters were never worse then when my parents went to the store with them... Fuckin' savages I tell you. I really didn't care, I pushed the cart. Never really asked my parents for things didn't like to do it, I felt bad for some reason and still do. When I was in school my father would basically give us 10$ a week for lunch. Well he's a pot head and wouldn't remember all the time, my little sister would be down to his room EVERY monday morning to get her 10$. I would strech my 10$ out as long as I could, I'd even take it into the next week if possible. just because I didn't like asking my dad for money. Eventually he'd say something like "weaver... how you doing on lunch money? I can't remember if I gave you 10 on monday?" And I'd say something like "Oh, not bad I've got about 1.25 left, that should last me till next monday." ( and this would be on like a wednesday or thursday) My sisters it never failed they always wanted something, I didn't like asking.

Funny, Hal...I'm like you and my brother is like your sisters. I've always wondered what my parents did to me to make me like I am, so I can do that to my kids (provided it's ethical). Patrick, wait till little H gets to be 5 and can argue with you. Aw, little H.... I want a little boy. I'm used to little girls; a little boy would be a challenge.

yeah he's my bud. a real sharp tack too. last weekend, he was dropped off by his reall pappa late at night, when we were over having wine with his mom and step dad. he was pretty grouchy to "miko" and i. otherwise, he absolutely adores us, talks about us all the time when we arent there. the next morning, he realized he had been mean to us when he was sleepy. he actually got really upset we were tiold and started crying because he was mean to us. He felt so remorseful. it amazes me that this 3 year old, can formulate such thoughts....sentences. I mean this kid is truly amazing like that in terms of his comprehension and application of emotions.

I use to hate taking Heather with me anywhere,she'd throw little snot crying fits,everyone would stare and her face would get so red,Ryan never bothered me to much,but I'll never forget the time he pulled my shorts down in the checkout lane.

Did the checker give you a discount?

*laughing* like mother like son. sounds like something you'd do J. shank someone. karma biting you in your bare ass eh?

My half-brother is 4. I love spending time with Nick. I don't get to see him too often, but it's neat talking to him on the phone and seeing him when I go home. For some reason, he and I just clicked since he was really young. He's not so into my younger brother, and I never had a very good relationship with him either. He talks at great length about all the things we're going to do when I come home next. He's got one hell of an imagination. Just one of those adventures would give me a lifetime of stories to tell. When Matt (my "whole" brother) was young, he'd have these truly phenomenal temper tantrums. He'd cry angrily for a couple breaths, then stop breathing with his mouth wide open. He'd start red, then go purple and pass out or have a sort of siezure. He'd wake up pissed off and screaming. The doctors said it wasn't going to hurt him since he started breathing as soon as he passed out. We called it "Purple out". I was the the Purple Out alarm. I thought it was great. He'd be just starting to turn purple, and I'd scream "PUUUUUUUURPLE OUUUUUUUUT!!!!" My dad met a woman a couple years ago who did that when she was young. It's rare, but apparenly they just grow out of it. I wish I had pictures.

Now I KNOW you were your moms favorite T-bone,I wish you had pictures too. As for shanking someone Patrick,not my mother, she'd have whipped the hell out of me if I'd done that to her.Whatever you do Eri and Trace stick together as a team,my husband always undermined me with the kids,if I said no,he'd say yes,it didn't help the kids,and I really resented it.

yeah but you're a prankster if i've known one. sounds like ryan is too.