| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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the mother and father are going through a divorce and we're kinda stuck. i need advice on how to proceed. first, some background. the mother and father got married when she was 4 mo's preggers with the 2 year old. right off the bat, the circumstances are tough. the father is in his late 30s, only child, selfish, and emotionally, a neanderthal (based on his actions since) the mother is in her late 20s, fairly spoiled but emotionally mature for the most part. we've always been close, literally, as they lived 2 blocks away and of course mentally as well. ergo the desire to name us god parents. finally, about 4 months ago, he moved out to a place down the street. she has custody of the kids, but he is so close is was understood to be a shared custody arrangement while they figured out what to do with their marriage. the 4 year old is from a previous relationship and for the most part is taken care of by his dad, but it would be a lie to say the 4 year old has not formed a solid step-son-father relationship with my friend. we told them both, directly, and repeatedly when this started to go down, that everything that is said, is confidential. meaning, what he tells us will not make it back to her, in terms of feelings, and what not. of course we also wont lie for him or her either, like about his whereabouts and what not. But we won't give either one of them a weapon to use against the other. It turns out, our relationship, far from perfect (but dreamy comapred to theirs) has been a weapon in arguments before. not a great position to be in right? the shitty part is, the mother is barely swimming with her two boys. shes fortunate to have a well-to-do father who is making up for the difference but she still needs to go to work and needs help with the kids. the father is an out of work (for too long mind you) music video director who has little to nothing on the radar in coming months. he has a well-to-do mother and step father so he gets by with their help. he's not paying child support, muchless assisting her with any bills they created together. he is a financial wreck, oweing 10s of thousands of dollars in credit and filed for bankruptcy in the summer despite her pleadings that he didnt, because ultimately he brought her down with him. she filed for divorce but he's not granting it, which means they will have to go to court. he wants 50% custody of his 2 year old. yet he cant even take the boy, consistantly for two days a week for two weeks in a row. and when he does he usually goes to his moms house. he's all but shunned the 4 year since he's not his child, techically, an emotional blow to a kid who desperately needs a regular male influence. in the last few months, he has hit his exwife up for money, he balks on his days to take his son, opting to have parties, do coke binges, stay out all night and generally lie to the mother. he even refused to pick the boy up from daycare on a day when she finally got some work. of course the son of a bitch came-to when it was said that nico would pick the boy up. as his god parents we have had to step in and offer our help, but to him thats a blow to his pride, so he usually goes back on his word when he hears we are picking up his slack. generally speaking, we knew him well before we knew her. he's our old school friend, as well as an old school friend of our other good friends. he's totally blowing it, we are watching him blow it and i want to say something. last night i got word of the straw that wants to break my back. this past saturday, it was his day to take his son. he just didnt bother calling at all. finally the mother called and essentially said..."hello!! are you taking your son today, you have flaked for 2 days in a row now". He essentially replied, "well, if i have to, i guess i could take (read:dump) him to my mothers." I find out, that he had actually a keg party that night, and purposely told a friend of ours NOT to tell nico and myself for fear we would leak it to the mother. Sunday he did the same thing again, going out to a birthday dinner with friends and the mother found out. so now he's deceiving his friends. his friends that expressed support the whole way. even though nico has been the only outlet for the mother, and it seems like we have taken her side (we have emotionally, but in all fairness not in an outword manner....YET!) but he is now putting his friends in the position to lie for him, of course dicking his son and exwife over in the process. i want to call him on it all. ive been biting my tongue for weeks now. I want to tell him "Nevermind the problems you have with your exwife. what you are doing to your son is shameful." should I? or should i continue to keep my mouth shut. its been a while since we hung out anyway, and since nico is gone, im due, so i was gonna call him anyway. i jsut dont know if i can bite my tongue much longer. |
I wonder if someone had called him on it if it would be different between us. Last night I realised we would never ever be close, that I never ever believe a word he says... as in when I was a teenager, he'd say that he'd call (wouldn't), would offer to take me to meet his parents (never happen), say that he'd take me out for my birthday (never did), in fact often after these promises I wouldn't hear from him for years. The only reason we are in contact now is because I went and found my grandparents on my own. He's emailed me a couple of times, just trival bullshit emails, and said he's coming up for some firefighter thing, and asked if I wanted to have a drink with him. I said yes, but I'm not holding my breath. So, Patrick, I'm pretty much fucked up. I find it really hard to trust guys, and one day if I have my own milkduds (we get those here now) then the man who helps better bloody be there, otherwise I'll be calling him on it. It might of been different in my case because my parents were only 17. But, at the end of the day, someone should of said to Martyn 'bring that child around, we want to meet our first neice/grandaughter'. But no one did. And now my relationship with that whole side of the family is non-existent. Not quite the same situation, but still, I was a child that was ignored and hurt by one of the people responsible for bringing me into the world. |
the idea if "what if someone had said something him...." is valuable in my decision. |
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a direct confrontation, knowing how inept and retarded he can be, may send him running and ive lost a friend because of his bullshit. im going to call him on it, im fairly sure of it, im just unsure how. im thinking of approaching him from the godfather angle, that im speaking from the perspective of the kids. and i am confronting him with that concern. but im also sick of his behavior in general. if approach him like: "you bestowed upon us an honor and a responsibility, and i have to cash in on the responsibilty part now. this is what i see happening......" and go from there. |
yeah...if he doesn't listen send out your thugs to break his legs...or stick a horses head under his sheets Patrick, I think you are thinking about this the right way...and as a friend, you are thinking of his kid...so I think you should say something...but I agree that, regardless of your friendship, a huge confrontation might not be good for anyone |
He needs someone to be firm and honest with him. Not bad, Patrick. Not too bad at all. |
that being said, i still think you should say something. |
fucking men. |
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The fact that it takes two to tango, and those two should have responsibility towards the effect of it? Or the expectation that when you live with someone, and share your lives with each other, that you should be able to trust them to not run off with someone else? |
To a certain degree,parenting is innate. ergo: this is my spawn,therefore I love it,and am concerned about its well-being. From what you have described,he has not shown any of these tendancies.So why would he listen to you? Undoubtedly,his wife has had these conversations with him,and obvioulsy to no avail. Just guessing,but this is probably one of the contributing factors to the divorce. You can lead a jack-ass to water,but can't make it imbide of the nectars of parenting. He sounds like a childish fucktard,who is too wrapped up in himself,to give the time of day to his child. She's better off without him. He's not reliable.He can't be trusted. It does more dammage,keeping the poor child hanging,"Daddys gonna call,come get you,come see you",etc.,then the jerk never shows up. You can try confronting him,but a looser is not soon to loose his "looser qualities". Good luck. |
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Eri and I have hit a rough spot over the last two months. It seems that (i realize this is coming from my prospective, so it will not give a complete picture) I have been completely negative about everything for the last 2 months. It started when she was handed the mag by our smallest... Take last night for instance. I call Eri at home and she tells me that Hayley got her report card and that she has brought everything up from last quarter, except math. but she brought that up from a 52 at mid-quarter to a 70. That was 18 points in 3 weeks. For some reason, this school has 6 week grade periods instead of 9 weeks... Anyway, I said she had done well. Eri said "Done well? She rocks." My response was that while that was true, I have noticed that if you praise her too much, then she figures she met her goal and so she slacks off and we are back where we started. I wanted to let her know how well she had done, give her a reward, and set a new goal for the next progress report. I did not even get pats the "while that is true" before Eri tells me I am a "buzz-kill". Well, I made it worse by trying to explain I was proud of her but... I then backed down and just said "Yes, she has done very well, and does deserve praise", and left it at that. On my way home from work I stopped at no less then 4 gas stations and Walgreens (the only likely places on my route home) to find some kind of trading cards from Harry Potter or LOTR or something I thought Hayley would like so that we could get her started on an incentive program that gives her new cards at the end of every week that goes by without discipline or grade problems. Nobody had anything like that. When I get home I tell Eri about not being able to find them and she replied by telling that Pokeman was such a huge success that they were not making those trading cards anymore. I told her that I had seen them not too long ago, so of course I was arguing with her, and she just got upset. then at the dinner table, Hayley burped twice while talking and did not excuse herself. I asked her to say excuse me and she did, then proceeded to say "Oh man, you should have seen me in class today, I let out a really long loud burp and the whole class laughed". I asked her if she had done it for a laugh and she said no. I began to tell her I realized she liked attention from her classmates, but that burping in class was not a good idea, it was not lady like and Eri just got mad and walked away from the table. This is only one evening's worth of examples, but I don't know what to do, just keep my mouth shut? Eri said all I do was argue and as negative all the time and if I did not fix it, I needed to pack........ It killed me. |
I wish you two the best of luck. |
You say you've been "negative" for the last 2 months. Perhaps it could be beneficial to try and look,and see what external factors might be contributing to your negativity. Its human nature to express our inner feelings,whether they be positive or negative,on those we are most comfortable with,ie, our loved ones. No relationship is easy.They don't come pre-packaged that way.[unfortunately] Hope you guys can work it out :) |
spider, i understand you, I just do not have anyone else to talk to about this. I do not have any co-workers to talk to, and no friends here. I cant get good advice from my family because they have an irrational dislike of Erin, so I know I cannot trust what they say....... |
i called him last night just to touch base. he was thrilled to hear from me, knowing nico is out of town wants to hang out. he said he's spending a lot of time with the boy because the mom is going back east for 3 weeks to visit family. i could have gone over there, hang out, and have the talk, but i put it off. its such a drag of a situation. he is a selfish, childish of a person. an ex girlfriend of his, ran into his ex wife and asked "is he still an emotional neanderthal?" pretty poignant. its a bitch of a situation. and trace, our differences aside. heed spider's advice. i don't really have anyone to talk about these kinds of things to either. but since eri has been a sorabji playa, it may be best to not air these things here, for her, not you. next, realize, these are just speed bumps, you will always recover. in my experience wives can say some of the most dramatic shit i have learned spunk. terribly dramatic, mean, unnecessary, inflammatory (see moonit's comments) and just down right nasty when they are upset at the men in their lives. not to diminish their reasons for being pissed, no, not at all. I have my reasons as to why this is, why women behave this way, and nate touched on it briefly, but i will refrain from expanding on it because, knowing women, it will most likely rub some the wrong way. i don't think you need to be worried about packing. shes just sounding off. your "lady like" comment probably sounded a bit too patriarchal and sexist to her. saying "proud but..." is no good. try "Im proud. Lets see if we can do even better." bottom line, these are fairly trivial matters. there is something else there. there is some other reason she is perhaps flying off the handle and threatening your marriage over these small fries. thats what you need to be finding out and theres only one person you can talk to about that. no advice from us will help. |
Not at all. We are both trying to raise our daughters like little ladies. We believe that regardless of changes to society's view on these itmes that manners are never sexist or outdated. You should have good manners regardless of sex or sexual orientation. There is no sexism there. She gets on me for playing too rough with them. |
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She gets time to herself, and if she wants more, all she ever has to do is ask..... |
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why am i agreeing with trace lately? Although i would watch that, it's the kinda thing that a kid can really resent being told later, (ME!) like when my grandmother insisted on saying that to correct me, even though nothing i had done up to that point in my childhood had been 'ladylike', and she was the one who drove tanks in the war. but that's just me. |
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damn, drove tanks in the war? that rules. |
but let's not fight. Although i would argue that driving tanks during a war probably sucks harder than any of us can imagine. Based on how she still won't talk to anyone with a german last name. But anyway, i hope you can talk your friend out of fucking up his kid. Do you think he could keep up with child support and all that? It's so sad. |
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bravo, trace. if you succeed, you're child will actually tell you that he/she would rather have a toaster streudel instead of a pop tart, instead of taking the pop tart and looking at you as if you couldn't be more retarded and then getting the toaster streudel from a friend. |
But,there is nothing wrong with good manners.As a matter of fact,they can help you succeed in life. It is much easier to take control of a situation, if you are well mannered,eloquent and well groomed. People pay more attention,when you speak, submit ideas/theories etc. I always try to present myself,[at least publicly],as feminine,and well mannered. BUT,bottom line,I know that there is NOTHING I can't do. I may present myself as feminine, but I have NEVER let my gender stand in my way. Example: geology.....they all snickered at my little self........when I first started. They weren't laughing so hard when I out hiked,out packed,out thought them all. Nor,when I made the top grades in the class,and became the student teacher. I worked hard for my success,and proved,yet another time, that you can't read a book by its cover. [and I never fart,either] |
PS Through experience as Hayley's father I can say without any reservation, that Hayley responds possitivily to being admonished to act as a lady. Biggest reason? Her Great-Grandmother was the Earthly Personification of a lady and Hayley wants to act as she did. She absolutely lit up when her great-grandmother praised her for being "Such a young lady". Maybe the moral decay of this world has not yet reached my children. |
tying manners to gender is what we are speaking about homeboy. |
If someone tells me they think I'm a lady, I recognize it for the compliment they intend it to be and don't get bent out of shape by the gender-identity baggage the label supposedly comes with. So, does "gentleman" come with such baggage? |
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oh, and about the gender thing. can't women be ladies and men be gentlemen? let's celebrate our differences. we can be different and equal. a woman can open a door for a man and a man can cry over a sad movie while he opens a door for a woman who is crying over a sad movie. let's retain a little sexuality and keep things interesting. |
So,I chose the lesser of 2 evils. I dislike nursing, but I can work when I want,which leaves me free to pursue other interests. |
i talked with my friend. we went out drinking saturday night. i met his new girlfriend. i had a few moments to express some sentiments but not like i wanted to. i was tipsy and stoned outta my mind and frankly having fun. so i waited. sunday we hooked up, drank some beers and played with his son. on a more sober moment i got a chance to convey some things. i came at him from an angle of "worry, of concern, of love." i came at him saying essentially "you made me his god father....i HAVE to inquire". Almost as if he, himself, was responsible for what i was about to say. It worked. Not a defensive word from him. I called him on his lies, his tainting of the friendship pool around him, how unproductive that is, to reiterate we hadnt taken sides and we're just there to keep his ex wife's head above water. i implored patience in him with her, and to be there whenever possible. he was apologetic and understood my concerns and was pretty reassuring that he was well with his son. i had to take his word. the boy, outwordly always seems fine. i just mentioned that even though he is only 2 now, pretty soon he will understand what his mom or dad is talking about so if he is flaking or she is yelling at him or vice versa, he will hear, and thats when you have problems. we seemed to click by the end of the conversation. so it worked out and man do i feel better getting it off my chest. |
he already has a new girlfriend? grrrr. |
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he needed to get laid and when you're getting laid, ultimately, from a guy's perspective you are better able to deal with everything else around you. a better, more clear head on your shoulders. we have encouraged her to date, but she seems to be more tangled in the emotional aspect. she knows he has a girlfriend, she lost it when she found out and now she is trying to make peace with him, inviting him to dinner and what not. in my mind, exposing her self emotionally because she is hurt. im indifferent about that aspect....only they know whats best for each of them. |
so much crying boys are funny people are dumb i am witty....yeeeaahhhh patrick, i don't like your friend, really. he is icky. |
see i think girls are the funny ones...boys are always having to cater to your emotional needs. *yeah fuckit lets get a good gender scrap going here......* |
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I try to be always polite. I am a gentlelady. |
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my wife always gives me the best piece of chicken and i always carry the heavy bags. |
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The kid will have a fantastic story. |
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not that I will ever be in the situation. |
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we are going with a midwife because they are better trained in womens health surrounding birthing. they are trained to treat pregnancy as a natural rite of passage in a womans life, not a medical condition like some doctors view it. we tried a doc at first. the vibe was no good. the midwife is awesome, she will be there throughout, has delivered hundreds if not thousands of babys, has a masters in midwivery. we are totally confident in her. of course a doctor will be on hand if there is need. she doesnt even want me in the delivery room, muchless with any silly cam corder. she wants me in the lobby smoking a cigar, pacing nervously with angry sam. |
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I would not have had a camcorder. I will never get to witness the birth of my child. |
patrick, is she really not letting you in? i would call bullshit on that in a heartbeat. |
its not that nico is NOT letting me in, shes just saying it halfheartedly. if nico asked me to wait outside I would though. oh wait, did you think the midwife was requesting that? |
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I was left standing there in her hospital room with nothing but bloody towels and gloves and syringes on the floor. and the floor nurse asked me to pick up her personal stuff... |
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My first impulse would be to bar my husband from the delivery room, too, but that's just not right. |
"my body, my right" right? if my wife expressed interest in keeping my out at such a critical time, how could i possibly insist otherwise? |
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having the father in there is wonderful I am sure, but it doesn't seem like anything worth fighting or getting upset over if it is that troubling for the mother. Patrick! does the midwife have the machine that goes BING? |
its all about the mothers comfort, its all about her at that time. i dont think its cruel at all to ask the husband to wait outside at all. KAZOO! what. the machine the goes BING? I have no idea what you are talking about. She does have this nifty transistor gadget that lets us hear the babies heart beat. |
It's from the scene in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life that I reference in that same post. |
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what the fuck are you talking about hal? he's gone out on less than a fistful of occassions which he was supposed to have his kid, flaked, and they ended up all-nighters. |
And the 2 year old won't be old enough soon to realize his father couldn't give a shit about him, and treats his only caregiver like something on the bottom of your buddy's shoe? |
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And i realize i started this thread, but your assessment is a bit childish. His father gives plenty of shit about him, he's just selfish sometimes. hardly like 'something on the bottom of his shoe'. I was angry, i unloaded without stepping on tows or loosing any valued friends. so if i sound defensive in spite of what has transpired, its because I've talked and weighed his p.o.v. why do you make me want to punch you hal with your aggressive, flippant mentality? |
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But I don't really have a personal issue considering, as I said, I will probably not be in the room when my baby is born. |
things happened. but thats irrelavent. you're logic, spider, agatha is still backwards and contrary to contemporary womens lib in my mind. what did dave do? |
Whatever. As long as you and your wife are in agreement about where your location will be at the important hour, that's all that matters. |
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thats all. carry on. |
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ok. so tell me, hypothetically speaking....say nico got pregnant as she did. not planned, but not exactly smart sex either...but the fault for that lies with us both. i dont want the child i ask that it be terminated....how much of a important part am i in that instance? how much of a right do i have there? mother trumps father by citing right over her body. why cant mother trump father in the delivery room? WTF is right. |
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ok. we talkie no more about the subject spider. |
A woman who would feel uncomfortable with me in the room while she was giving birth to our child is a woman I wouldn't agree to marry. What if I said my wife should have to be under general anesthetic during childbirth? She'd be more comfortable then, right? Comfort is the priority, right? |
Absolutely. Of course, Eri wanted her mom in there as well....... Which is of course fine, she could have anyone she wanted in there, but damn |
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it depends on how you are thinking about comfort...I am talking about whatever creates the best conditions for the mother. it's for her to decide (hopefully with input from others and to the degree that such things are feasible) how she wants things to go. |
J, not yet. we are looking into it...soon, but not yet. |
You should ask my potential wife. She might be lurking around here somewhere. :) |
Anyway, her family is from Egypt...her grandmother was Bedouin. In every sense of the word, they assimilated, and were pretty much secular, western, liberal, etc. Her father and uncles had their moments but for the most part, were okay. However, there were a few elements of their culture that they retained. One of them being the traditions around childbirth, which is wholly the domain of the women. I don't know that much about it, only that when her nieces and nephews were born, there were only women involved. She was there for all of the births and it seemed to be something they really cared about and made her really happy. I remember when one of her nephews was born. And I know that all of her sisters except for one married Euro-American guys. I also don't know how much tension it caused, but obviously not that much. I'm pretty sure Lila would have compromised, but I think it would have bothered her a lot. Her grandmother would have probably thrown a fit, but her mother would have taken care of that. Okay, this is a unique scenario, and most likely a woman with these traditions would probably be committed to others and wouldn't want to marry someone without those values. So maybe none of you find it relevant, but I'd be interested to know what you think. I think that if it had become an issue and I really wanted to be with her...I'd step aside. I mean, all of our other values were in synch. |
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When my mother was in labor with yours truly she was in a room with a woman who was screaming...scared the crap out of me mum who was just wimpering...unable to scream due to her irish catholic "keep it all inside" upbringing. My father was not allowed in the delivery room. He told me it was because the doctor was an old-fashioned one, but I do not believe him entirely. There were a lot of issues surrounding my mother's pregnancy with me; things that I am just starting to learn about. |
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She was two years younger than I am now. I can't even imagine. |
oh man, that is so inspiring. That makes me forget why i don't want kids. I'm gonna have 6 kids! box stitches. Sweet merciful crap. |
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I guess they figured it out when my father never turned up to visit. Mum kept me a secret until she was seven months pregnant. I can't imagine it. |
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the artificial expectation of monogamy. --- yehhah real fucking intelligent.mm roket sighance. |