Divorce


sorabji.com: I need advice: Divorce
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By patrick on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 01:55 pm:

    So you've heard me reference our unofficial god children here. well, we've been good friends with the mother and father (of the 2 year old) for sometime now. (we know the father of the 4 year old, but not too well)

    the mother and father are going through a divorce and we're kinda stuck.

    i need advice on how to proceed.

    first, some background.

    the mother and father got married when she was 4 mo's preggers with the 2 year old. right off the bat, the circumstances are tough.

    the father is in his late 30s, only child, selfish, and emotionally, a neanderthal (based on his actions since)

    the mother is in her late 20s, fairly spoiled but emotionally mature for the most part.

    we've always been close, literally, as they lived 2 blocks away and of course mentally as well. ergo the desire to name us god parents.

    finally, about 4 months ago, he moved out to a place down the street.

    she has custody of the kids, but he is so close is was understood to be a shared custody arrangement while they figured out what to do with their marriage.

    the 4 year old is from a previous relationship and for the most part is taken care of by his dad, but it would be a lie to say the 4 year old has not formed a solid step-son-father relationship with my friend.

    we told them both, directly, and repeatedly when this started to go down, that everything that is said, is confidential. meaning, what he tells us will not make it back to her, in terms of feelings, and what not. of course we also wont lie for him or her either, like about his whereabouts and what not. But we won't give either one of them a weapon to use against the other. It turns out, our relationship, far from perfect (but dreamy comapred to theirs) has been a weapon in arguments before. not a great position to be in right?



    the shitty part is, the mother is barely swimming with her two boys. shes fortunate to have a well-to-do father who is making up for the difference but she still needs to go to work and needs help with the kids. the father is an out of work (for too long mind you) music video director who has little to nothing on the radar in coming months. he has a well-to-do mother and step father so he gets by with their help.

    he's not paying child support, muchless assisting her with any bills they created together. he is a financial wreck, oweing 10s of thousands of dollars in credit and filed for bankruptcy in the summer despite her pleadings that he didnt, because ultimately he brought her down with him.

    she filed for divorce but he's not granting it, which means they will have to go to court. he wants 50% custody of his 2 year old. yet he cant even take the boy, consistantly for two days a week for two weeks in a row. and when he does he usually goes to his moms house. he's all but shunned the 4 year since he's not his child, techically, an emotional blow to a kid who desperately needs a regular male influence.

    in the last few months, he has hit his exwife up for money, he balks on his days to take his son, opting to have parties, do coke binges, stay out all night and generally lie to the mother. he even refused to pick the boy up from daycare on a day when she finally got some work. of course the son of a bitch came-to when it was said that nico would pick the boy up. as his god parents we have had to step in and offer our help, but to him thats a blow to his pride, so he usually goes back on his word when he hears we are picking up his slack.

    generally speaking, we knew him well before we knew her. he's our old school friend, as well as an old school friend of our other good friends.

    he's totally blowing it, we are watching him blow it and i want to say something.

    last night i got word of the straw that wants to break my back.

    this past saturday, it was his day to take his son. he just didnt bother calling at all. finally the mother called and essentially said..."hello!! are you taking your son today, you have flaked for 2 days in a row now". He essentially replied, "well, if i have to, i guess i could take (read:dump) him to my mothers." I find out, that he had actually a keg party that night, and purposely told a friend of ours NOT to tell nico and myself for fear we would leak it to the mother. Sunday he did the same thing again, going out to a birthday dinner with friends and the mother found out.

    so now he's deceiving his friends. his friends that expressed support the whole way. even though nico has been the only outlet for the mother, and it seems like we have taken her side (we have emotionally, but in all fairness not in an outword manner....YET!) but he is now putting his friends in the position to lie for him, of course dicking his son and exwife over in the process.

    i want to call him on it all. ive been biting my tongue for weeks now.

    I want to tell him "Nevermind the problems you have with your exwife. what you are doing to your son is shameful."



    should I? or should i continue to keep my mouth shut.

    its been a while since we hung out anyway, and since nico is gone, im due, so i was gonna call him anyway. i jsut dont know if i can bite my tongue much longer.


By moonit on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 02:21 pm:

    My real dad is not remotely interested in me. In fact, his other kids don't know about me, I've only just met my grandparents (I'm 27), and the relationship I have with him is very very rocky.

    I wonder if someone had called him on it if it would be different between us.

    Last night I realised we would never ever be close, that I never ever believe a word he says... as in when I was a teenager, he'd say that he'd call (wouldn't), would offer to take me to meet his parents (never happen), say that he'd take me out for my birthday (never did), in fact often after these promises I wouldn't hear from him for years. The only reason we are in contact now is because I went and found my grandparents on my own.

    He's emailed me a couple of times, just trival bullshit emails, and said he's coming up for some firefighter thing, and asked if I wanted to have a drink with him. I said yes, but I'm not holding my breath.

    So, Patrick, I'm pretty much fucked up. I find it really hard to trust guys, and one day if I have my own milkduds (we get those here now) then the man who helps better bloody be there, otherwise I'll be calling him on it.

    It might of been different in my case because my parents were only 17. But, at the end of the day, someone should of said to Martyn 'bring that child around, we want to meet our first neice/grandaughter'. But no one did. And now my relationship with that whole side of the family is non-existent.

    Not quite the same situation, but still, I was a child that was ignored and hurt by one of the people responsible for bringing me into the world.


By patrick on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 02:32 pm:

    no, but its interesting to think about mooney.



    the idea if "what if someone had said something him...." is valuable in my decision.


By patrick on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:00 pm:

    oh and thanks for actually reading this all the way through. i know its windy.


By J on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

    I'd call him on it in a New York minute,maybe he should lay off the drugs and booze and maybe then he could think about what he's doing to this child.He sounds like a pure asshole to me,and he's not very up front with you,is he?


By patrick on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

    well janny. he is still my friend. regardless of what kind of father or husband he is, he has been a good friend.

    a direct confrontation, knowing how inept and retarded he can be, may send him running and ive lost a friend because of his bullshit.

    im going to call him on it, im fairly sure of it, im just unsure how.

    im thinking of approaching him from the godfather angle, that im speaking from the perspective of the kids. and i am confronting him with that concern. but im also sick of his behavior in general.

    if approach him like:

    "you bestowed upon us an honor and a responsibility, and i have to cash in on the responsibilty part now. this is what i see happening......"

    and go from there.


By kazoo on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

    "im thinking of approaching him from the godfather angle"

    yeah...if he doesn't listen send out your thugs to break his legs...or stick a horses head under his sheets


    Patrick, I think you are thinking about this the right way...and as a friend, you are thinking of his kid...so I think you should say something...but I agree that, regardless of your friendship, a huge confrontation might not be good for anyone


By trace on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:58 pm:

    No, it will not be good. It will really upset the kid and might send the father further into drugs and drinking.

    He needs someone to be firm and honest with him.

    Not bad, Patrick. Not too bad at all.


By agatha on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 06:33 pm:

    i hate to say it, patrick, but no matter how you approach this, he is going to wig and fly off on a defensive tip. it will ruin your friendship, maybe not permanently, but at least for awhile, and then it will always be there between you.

    that being said, i still think you should say something.


By moonit on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 08:37 pm:

    my mum just found out her boyfriend (aka dad) has been cheating on her for the past two months.

    fucking men.


By Nate on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 08:59 pm:

    fucking women and their ridiculous expectations.


By Joe on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 01:04 am:

    patrick, if you don't confront your friend you can count on two things happening. he will not "be there" to be part of his child's childhood, and he will spend the rest of his life lamenting the fact that he was not a good father to his child. as a non-custodial divorced father, i spend a lot of time questioning my competency as a parent. believe me, it's hell on earth. i had problems when i was younger and i NEVER stop asking myself those problems did damage to my child. your friend needs to get a grip and realize how much influence he has on his child.


By dave. on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:48 am:

    jeezus, thanks.


By moonit on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:06 am:

    Which expectations should that be Nate?

    The fact that it takes two to tango, and those two should have responsibility towards the effect of it?

    Or the expectation that when you live with someone, and share your lives with each other, that you should be able to trust them to not run off with someone else?


By Czarina on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:48 am:

    Patrick,you can call your friend on it,but I doubt that it will have much impact.

    To a certain degree,parenting is innate.

    ergo: this is my spawn,therefore I love it,and am concerned about its well-being.

    From what you have described,he has not shown any of these tendancies.So why would he listen to you?

    Undoubtedly,his wife has had these conversations with him,and obvioulsy to no avail.

    Just guessing,but this is probably one of the contributing factors to the divorce.

    You can lead a jack-ass to water,but can't make it imbide of the nectars of parenting.

    He sounds like a childish fucktard,who is too wrapped up in himself,to give the time of day to his child.

    She's better off without him. He's not reliable.He can't be trusted. It does more dammage,keeping the poor child hanging,"Daddys gonna call,come get you,come see you",etc.,then the jerk never shows up.

    You can try confronting him,but a looser is not soon to loose his "looser qualities".

    Good luck.


By Nate on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:56 am:

    the artificial expectation of monogamy.


By trace on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:04 am:

    I guess I really have some looser qualities.
    Eri and I have hit a rough spot over the last two months.

    It seems that (i realize this is coming from my prospective, so it will not give a complete picture) I have been completely negative about everything for the last 2 months. It started when she was handed the mag by our smallest...

    Take last night for instance. I call Eri at home and she tells me that Hayley got her report card
    and that she has brought everything up from last quarter, except math. but she brought that up from a 52 at mid-quarter to a 70. That was 18 points in 3 weeks. For some reason, this school has 6 week grade periods instead of 9 weeks...

    Anyway, I said she had done well. Eri said "Done well? She rocks." My response was that while that was true, I have noticed that if you praise her too much, then she figures she met her goal and so she slacks off and we are back where we started. I wanted to let her know how well she had done, give her a reward, and set a new goal for the next progress report. I did not even get pats the "while that is true" before Eri tells me I am a "buzz-kill". Well, I made it worse by trying to explain I was proud of her but...
    I then backed down and just said "Yes, she has done very well, and does deserve praise", and left it at that.
    On my way home from work I stopped at no less then 4 gas stations and Walgreens (the only likely places on my route home) to find some kind of trading cards from Harry Potter or LOTR or something I thought Hayley would like so that we could get her started on an incentive program that gives her new cards at the end of every week that goes by without discipline or grade problems.
    Nobody had anything like that.
    When I get home I tell Eri about not being able to find them and she replied by telling that Pokeman was such a huge success that they were not making those trading cards anymore. I told her that I had seen them not too long ago, so of course I was arguing with her, and she just got upset.
    then at the dinner table, Hayley burped twice while talking and did not excuse herself. I asked her to say excuse me and she did, then proceeded to say "Oh man, you should have seen me in class today, I let out a really long loud burp and the whole class laughed". I asked her if she had done it for a laugh and she said no. I began to tell her I realized she liked attention from her classmates, but that burping in class was not a good idea, it was not lady like and Eri just got mad and walked away from the table.

    This is only one evening's worth of examples, but I don't know what to do, just keep my mouth shut?

    Eri said all I do was argue and as negative all the time and if I did not fix it, I needed to pack........

    It killed me.


By Spider on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:13 am:

    Please don't take this the wrong way, Trace, but maybe it's not a good idea for you to be discussing your marital problems on the board, since we're familiar with both you and Eri. It puts the rest of us in an awkward position.

    I wish you two the best of luck.


By Czarina on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:39 am:

    Trace, I hardly think you qualify in the "looser" catagory. You care about your children.[this other guy obviously doesn't]

    You say you've been "negative" for the last 2 months. Perhaps it could be beneficial to try and look,and see what external factors might be contributing to your negativity.

    Its human nature to express our inner feelings,whether they be positive or negative,on those we are most comfortable with,ie, our loved ones.

    No relationship is easy.They don't come pre-packaged that way.[unfortunately]

    Hope you guys can work it out :)


By trace on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:44 am:

    thanks czar
    spider, i understand you, I just do not have anyone else to talk to about this. I do not have any co-workers to talk to, and no friends here. I cant get good advice from my family because they have an irrational dislike of Erin, so I know I cannot trust what they say.......


By patrick on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:44 am:

    you are probably right czarina.

    i called him last night just to touch base. he was thrilled to hear from me, knowing nico is out of town wants to hang out. he said he's spending a lot of time with the boy because the mom is going back east for 3 weeks to visit family.

    i could have gone over there, hang out, and have the talk, but i put it off. its such a drag of a situation.

    he is a selfish, childish of a person. an ex girlfriend of his, ran into his ex wife and asked "is he still an emotional neanderthal?" pretty poignant.

    its a bitch of a situation.





    and trace, our differences aside.

    heed spider's advice. i don't really have anyone to talk about these kinds of things to either. but since eri has been a sorabji playa, it may be best to not air these things here, for her, not you.

    next, realize, these are just speed bumps, you will always recover.

    in my experience wives can say some of the most dramatic shit i have learned spunk. terribly dramatic, mean, unnecessary, inflammatory (see moonit's comments) and just down right nasty when they are upset at the men in their lives. not to diminish their reasons for being pissed, no, not at all. I have my reasons as to why this is, why women behave this way, and nate touched on it briefly, but i will refrain from expanding on it because, knowing women, it will most likely rub some the wrong way.

    i don't think you need to be worried about packing. shes just sounding off.

    your "lady like" comment probably sounded a bit too patriarchal and sexist to her.

    saying "proud but..." is no good.

    try "Im proud. Lets see if we can do even better."


    bottom line, these are fairly trivial matters. there is something else there. there is some other reason she is perhaps flying off the handle and threatening your marriage over these small fries. thats what you need to be finding out and theres only one person you can talk to about that. no advice from us will help.







By trace on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:05 pm:

    "your "lady like" comment probably sounded a bit too patriarchal and sexist to her."

    Not at all. We are both trying to raise our daughters like little ladies. We believe that regardless of changes to society's view on these itmes that manners are never sexist or outdated.
    You should have good manners regardless of sex or sexual orientation. There is no sexism there.

    She gets on me for playing too rough with them.


By J on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:05 pm:

    Patrick it sounds like you grew up and your friend hasn't and it doesn't sounds like he wants to.You will find as you get older that you out grow some of your friends,that your values change.Czarina and I have been friend for eons,I have a few long time friends like that,but you loose some along the way.I use to have a good friend named Billie,grew up with her,but we both went in two different directions,last I heard she spent time in prison for drugs,she had a kid that still thinks she's his sister,that she does nothing for and I just didn't want anything to do with her anymore. Trace the best advise I can give to you as parents is to stick together as parents,if you have disagreements about the kids for the love of God talk it out in private,kids pick up on that and use it to their advantage they are very manipulative.Another thing,do you two ever get time to go out together with out the kids? I know you two have no family there and that in it's self is stressful,does Eri get time to herself? I would have gone postal if my mother hadn't babysat for me the in-laws wouldn't, my kids were little hellions.Plus the holidays are comeing up and thats stressfull sometimes too.


By trace on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:17 pm:

    Actually we have gotten to go out twice in the last two months, we have a friend at the complex that has a boy between hayley's & micki's age, so he loves watching them every once in a while.
    She gets time to herself, and if she wants more, all she ever has to do is ask.....


By patrick on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

    uh trace, by using the word "ladylike" you directly tying manners to sex.


By wisper on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 01:40 pm:

    not really. I'm sure if he had boys he wouldn't let them burp at the table either, he just happens to have girls, and that's the expression he wants to use. It's only that no-one says "it's not very man-like".

    why am i agreeing with trace lately?

    Although i would watch that, it's the kinda thing that a kid can really resent being told later, (ME!) like when my grandmother insisted on saying that to correct me, even though nothing i had done up to that point in my childhood had been 'ladylike', and she was the one who drove tanks in the war.


    but that's just me.


By Spider on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 01:45 pm:

    But Wisper....did she sit with her knees together in the tank?


By patrick on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

    not that its of any importance what so ever, but wisper, using the word "ladylike" is directly associating certain behavior to "being a lady".

    damn, drove tanks in the war? that rules.






By wisper on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:33 pm:

    i know patrick, that was the point of my 2nd paragraph. Kinda. Whatever.

    but let's not fight. Although i would argue that driving tanks during a war probably sucks harder than any of us can imagine. Based on how she still won't talk to anyone with a german last name.

    But anyway, i hope you can talk your friend out of fucking up his kid. Do you think he could keep up with child support and all that? It's so sad.


By patrick on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:42 pm:

    no, he cant keep up with child support. he needs to get his ass in gear. i'll probably deal with this over the weekend, we'll see what happens.


By agatha on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 08:33 pm:

    i agree. ladylike implies that women are supposed to act a certain way, that is different than men. i think if you can teach your child good old fashioned kindness, respect, and manners, you will not need to drag sex into it. mind you, i was a total tomboy growing up, but i still have relatively good manners today.


By Joe on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 01:37 am:

    trace, the fact that you are trying to equip your children with manners speaks volumes about you and your spouse as human beings. when i was a kid in the early 60's, we worried that adults OTHER than their parents would reprimand us (even physically) if they caught us doing something "wrong". i'm not saying that this was right, but today kids are taught from every angle that it's cool to make fun of their own parents, and don't forget that any other adult is a potential child molester (why should we teach our children to be discerning?). so, forget about having respect for adults whom they do not know. just walk into any mall and see how many times some child (and i'm talking about a child who is 8 or 10 years old or older) just runs into you because he/she is not paying attention. do they say, "excuse me"? do their parents do anything to indicate that their child has done something wrong? we don't need manners if we are entiltled to our lives, but are we so entitled?

    bravo, trace. if you succeed, you're child will actually tell you that he/she would rather have a toaster streudel instead of a pop tart, instead of taking the pop tart and looking at you as if you couldn't be more retarded and then getting the toaster streudel from a friend.


By Czarina on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 12:20 pm:

    Joe, you watch too many commercials :)

    But,there is nothing wrong with good manners.As a matter of fact,they can help you succeed in life.

    It is much easier to take control of a situation, if you are well mannered,eloquent and well groomed. People pay more attention,when you speak, submit ideas/theories etc.

    I always try to present myself,[at least publicly],as feminine,and well mannered.

    BUT,bottom line,I know that there is NOTHING I can't do. I may present myself as feminine, but I have NEVER let my gender stand in my way.

    Example: geology.....they all snickered at my little self........when I first started.

    They weren't laughing so hard when I out hiked,out packed,out thought them all. Nor,when I made the top grades in the class,and became the student teacher.

    I worked hard for my success,and proved,yet another time, that you can't read a book by its cover.

    [and I never fart,either]


By trace on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 01:42 pm:

    Thanks to those whom have confirmed to me that I am not alone, and that manners should apply to any human being on this earth.

    PS Through experience as Hayley's father I can say without any reservation, that Hayley responds possitivily to being admonished to act as a lady.
    Biggest reason? Her Great-Grandmother was the Earthly Personification of a lady and Hayley wants to act as she did. She absolutely lit up when her great-grandmother praised her for being "Such a young lady".

    Maybe the moral decay of this world has not yet reached my children.


By patrick on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 01:51 pm:

    i dont think anyone disagreed with you about the teaching manners.

    tying manners to gender is what we are speaking about homeboy.




By Spider on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 01:56 pm:

    Well, unless (like Trace said) she associates "lady" with something she wants to be. When she grows up she can decide for herself if she approves of the title.

    If someone tells me they think I'm a lady, I recognize it for the compliment they intend it to be and don't get bent out of shape by the gender-identity baggage the label supposedly comes with.

    So, does "gentleman" come with such baggage?


By trace on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:13 pm:

    Not for me, but that might be because I associate it with a well discplined, respectful, and polite man, who takes pride in himself and his appearance, as well as demeanor.


By patrick on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:14 pm:

    no. but being told to "be a man", to me is the same as being told "to be ladylike".


By Joe on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 11:35 pm:

    hey czar, good for you on making it in a so-called man's profession. you're probably better at it than most of the men who would deny you entry. yes, i watch too many commercials, but that's the fucking point. these ads tell kids that its ok to be self-absorbed and to ridicule anything that is "outside" of their lives. there is no respect for anyone but peers. look, i came from a generation that thought their parents were clueless and vowed never to be the same way with our own kids. in reality, we just fell into place as a generation who felt restricted and therefore gave our children too much freedom. history tells us that our children will feel that they suffer from a lack of parenting and will be strict with their children. unfortunately, the current generation of kids has so much media and technology supporting them that they probably feel invincible. i can't imagine what's going to happen when they have children of their own.

    oh, and about the gender thing. can't women be ladies and men be gentlemen? let's celebrate our differences. we can be different and equal. a woman can open a door for a man and a man can cry over a sad movie while he opens a door for a woman who is crying over a sad movie. let's retain a little sexuality and keep things interesting.


By Czarina on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:46 am:

    Thanks Joe. But I now make my living as a psychiatric nurse. The hours and money suit me. Plus,as I now live in Lousiana,to work in the field of geology, I would contribute to raping mother earth,[as everything is oilfield based here]

    So,I chose the lesser of 2 evils. I dislike nursing, but I can work when I want,which leaves me free to pursue other interests.


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:24 am:

    regarding this thread.

    i talked with my friend.

    we went out drinking saturday night. i met his new girlfriend. i had a few moments to express some sentiments but not like i wanted to. i was tipsy and stoned outta my mind and frankly having fun. so i waited.

    sunday we hooked up, drank some beers and played with his son. on a more sober moment i got a chance to convey some things.

    i came at him from an angle of "worry, of concern, of love." i came at him saying essentially "you made me his god father....i HAVE to inquire". Almost as if he, himself, was responsible for what i was about to say. It worked. Not a defensive word from him.

    I called him on his lies, his tainting of the friendship pool around him, how unproductive that is, to reiterate we hadnt taken sides and we're just there to keep his ex wife's head above water. i implored patience in him with her, and to be there whenever possible.

    he was apologetic and understood my concerns and was pretty reassuring that he was well with his son. i had to take his word. the boy, outwordly always seems fine. i just mentioned that even though he is only 2 now, pretty soon he will understand what his mom or dad is talking about so if he is flaking or she is yelling at him or vice versa, he will hear, and thats when you have problems.

    we seemed to click by the end of the conversation.


    so it worked out and man do i feel better getting it off my chest.



By agatha on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:40 am:

    i'm glad it worked out.

    he already has a new girlfriend? grrrr.


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:49 am:

    is he not allowed to have a girlfriend?


By agatha on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:57 pm:

    i just think it's a little soon. he's allowed to do whatever he wants.


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 01:20 pm:

    perhaps.

    he needed to get laid and when you're getting laid, ultimately, from a guy's perspective you are better able to deal with everything else around you.

    a better, more clear head on your shoulders.

    we have encouraged her to date, but she seems to be more tangled in the emotional aspect. she knows he has a girlfriend, she lost it when she found out and now she is trying to make peace with him, inviting him to dinner and what not. in my mind, exposing her self emotionally because she is hurt.

    im indifferent about that aspect....only they know whats best for each of them.


By heather on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 05:36 pm:

    but can he: cry over a sad movie while he opens a door for a woman who is crying over a sad movie

    so much crying

    boys are funny
    people are dumb
    i am witty....yeeeaahhhh

    patrick, i don't like your friend, really. he is icky.


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

    that is of no surprise at all...and im pretty sure every girl who has read this agrees with you.

    see i think girls are the funny ones...boys are always having to cater to your emotional needs.










    *yeah fuckit lets get a good gender scrap going here......*


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

    coincidentally "Shes Lost Control" by Joy Division just popped up on me juke.


By patrick on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 05:54 pm:

    one more thing....im in the midst of dealing with the most unstable of women, emotionally that is, a preggers woman, so bring it on..........i've been wearing armor for months now.


By Joe on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:26 am:

    don't you just love it when she blames you for her condition? "you fucking bastard,...this is all your fault." if she hasn't said this yet, she'll say it while in labor. that's really great when the doctor and several nurses are there to hear it, but you still have to love her because she's just being a woman and that's ok. when it's all over, she'll be the first to thank you for being there and helping her. yeah, we're all a little funny in our own way. that is what makes love and marriage so great,...just my opinion.


By semillama on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:49 am:

    I'm confused...Why again can't Women be gentlemen and Men be ladies?


By Spider on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:53 am:

    I agree with Heather.

    I try to be always polite. I am a gentlelady.


By Czarina on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 09:19 am:

    I'm a ladyman.


By patrick on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:27 am:

    Joe, we're giving birth in the woods at a remote hotspring with a midwife wearing late 1600's era garb.





    my wife always gives me the best piece of chicken and i always carry the heavy bags.



By trace on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:31 am:

    are you joking about the woods thing?


By semillama on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

    I hope not.

    The kid will have a fantastic story.


By patrick on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:03 pm:

    yeah im joking about the woods thing, but not about the period garb.


By semillama on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:49 pm:

    Oh, i would be more inclined to do the woods thing than the period garb.

    not that I will ever be in the situation.


By trace on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:56 pm:

    I was just concerned since this was her first baby. I would want doctors right there, just in case.


By patrick on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:18 pm:

    its all a joke.


    we are going with a midwife because they are better trained in womens health surrounding birthing. they are trained to treat pregnancy as a natural rite of passage in a womans life, not a medical condition like some doctors view it. we tried a doc at first. the vibe was no good.

    the midwife is awesome, she will be there throughout, has delivered hundreds if not thousands of babys, has a masters in midwivery. we are totally confident in her.

    of course a doctor will be on hand if there is need.


    she doesnt even want me in the delivery room, muchless with any silly cam corder. she wants me in the lobby smoking a cigar, pacing nervously with angry sam.



By Spider on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:21 pm:

    I was born with (by? for? on?) a midwife. My mom loved them.


By Spider on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

    Oops, let me clarify -- there were two midwives attending her.


By trace on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:28 pm:

    I did not get to be in the delivery room.
    I would not have had a camcorder.

    I will never get to witness the birth of my child.


By agatha on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 06:59 pm:

    why weren't you in the delivery room?

    patrick, is she really not letting you in? i would call bullshit on that in a heartbeat.


By patrick on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 07:31 pm:

    no no no.

    its not that nico is NOT letting me in, shes just saying it halfheartedly.

    if nico asked me to wait outside I would though.

    oh wait, did you think the midwife was requesting that?


By agatha on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

    no, i thought nico was requesting it.


By trace on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:11 pm:

    I did not go into the delivery room because they had to do an emergency c-section.
    I was left standing there in her hospital room with nothing but bloody towels and gloves and syringes on the floor. and the floor nurse asked me to pick up her personal stuff...


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:09 am:

    so agatha, if she did ask me to wait, why would you call bullshit?



By J on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:44 pm:

    I didn't let my ex-husband come in and see the birth of Amee. Ste**** I let see the birth of Heather and Ryan.The ex blew it when he tried to use my stomach as a pillow while I was in labor. I have never been one to carry on while giving birth,I maintained my dignity and took it like a man.


By kazoo on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:48 pm:

    I am quite certain that I will not be in the delivery room when my babies are born.


By Spider on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:08 pm:

    My mom likes to tell the story of how the midwives were so amazed that she stayed so calm during her labor. She told them, "This is all a facade." It's true -- my mom is ordinarily a total wimp.

    My first impulse would be to bar my husband from the delivery room, too, but that's just not right.


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

    why? its your body, your procedure? this is totally backwards to common teachings.

    "my body, my right"

    right?

    if my wife expressed interest in keeping my out at such a critical time, how could i possibly insist otherwise?


By Spider on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

    You know how dogs will crawl under the porch and die alone? When I'm in pain, I don't want anyone around me. But I think it would be cruel of me to keep my husband from seeing the birth of his child, if that's what he wanted to do.


By kazoo on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

    It's like that scene in The Meaning of Life, where the doctors let everyone in and kick the husband out of the delivery room.

    having the father in there is wonderful I am sure, but it doesn't seem like anything worth fighting or getting upset over if it is that troubling for the mother.


    Patrick!






    does the midwife have the machine that goes BING?


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

    so spider are you going to accept my invitiation to play a game or what?


    its all about the mothers comfort, its all about her at that time. i dont think its cruel at all to ask the husband to wait outside at all.




    KAZOO!


    what.


    the machine the goes BING?

    I have no idea what you are talking about. She does have this nifty transistor gadget that lets us hear the babies heart beat.




By kazoo on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:43 pm:

    Yes, the machine that goes BING! "That lets us know that your baby is still ALIVE"


    It's from the scene in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life that I reference in that same post.


By semillama on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:46 pm:

    yes, you should definately review that scene right before the birth.


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:51 pm:

    its been years and years and years since ive seen that flic.....and im pretty sure i was stoned.


By A couple days late on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:44 pm:

    I don't care how good a friend someone has been in the past, I wouldn't call him "a good friend" if I had not a shred of respect for him. And as for someone who emotionally abuses children for his own selfish coke parties is an asshole I wouldn't have any part of. You can't separate the two or you too become complicit in the abuse. "I know that Adolf's been a little excitable with the whole Jewish thing, but he's always bought me a beer when we go out, so I've got no problems with him."


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:48 pm:

    emotionally abuses children?

    what the fuck are you talking about hal?


    he's gone out on less than a fistful of occassions which he was supposed to have his kid, flaked, and they ended up all-nighters.



By A couple minutes later on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:56 pm:

    "he's all but shunned the 4 year since he's not his child, techically, an emotional blow to a kid"

    And the 2 year old won't be old enough soon to realize his father couldn't give a shit about him, and treats his only caregiver like something on the bottom of your buddy's shoe?


By agatha on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

    I would call bullshit because it's your child too, and you have the right to see it born if you so wish.


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 07:15 pm:

    in my conversation with him, he was aware of any neglect towards the 4 year old. however, the 4 year old is not without. his biological dad is fantastic. its just the terms of the relationship changed and the 4 years is not really in a position to understand. i wouldnt call it 'emotional abuse', because it implies he deliberately harmed the child. He explained that because the 4 year old was so demanding, that he felt his son, when all 4 were under 1 roof, was getting the short end of the stick. so what i called "shunned", was, in his words a redistribution of attention. He says this. I believe him. He has made an effort to come back into the life to his step son. At the same time, his step son has a great relationship with his dad. My friends ultimate priority is his own son. There is nothing wrong with this.

    And i realize i started this thread, but your assessment is a bit childish.

    His father gives plenty of shit about him, he's just selfish sometimes. hardly like 'something on the bottom of his shoe'.

    I was angry, i unloaded without stepping on tows or loosing any valued friends.

    so if i sound defensive in spite of what has transpired, its because I've talked and weighed his p.o.v.


    why do you make me want to punch you hal with your aggressive, flippant mentality?


By patrick on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 07:18 pm:

    eh...by that logic agatha, i have a right to make her carry to term, against her will, because its my child too.


By agatha on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 08:24 pm:

    no, not at all. you two decided jointly to have this child, so you should be able to be in the delivery room to see your child come into this world.


By Spider on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 08:34 am:

    Yeah, that's what I'm saying, too.


By kazoo on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 08:46 am:

    I don't disagree, but I still think that the mother's comfort is more important than the father's *right* to see the baby delivered. I've known a couple of women (but not too many) who asked their husbands to stay out but had a bestfriend or sister come.

    But I don't really have a personal issue considering, as I said, I will probably not be in the room when my baby is born.


By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 11:47 am:

    we inherently decided "jointly" by getting naked.
    things happened. but thats irrelavent.

    you're logic, spider, agatha is still backwards and contrary to contemporary womens lib in my mind.


    what did dave do?





By Spider on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 11:58 am:

    Ummmm...first of all, I have never identified myself with the "women's lib" movement, so I don't care if my opinion is consistent with your take on that movement or not. Second of all, if my husband wants to be in the room when our child is born and he's not in the way and he's not hurting me and he's not about to faint or anything, I would be an asshole not to let him in. It's an important moment for him, too. If we decide to get a puppy and he makes me sit in the car while he picks it up from the pound, he would be the asshole.

    Whatever. As long as you and your wife are in agreement about where your location will be at the important hour, that's all that matters.


By kazoo on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:14 pm:

    I don't even think the idea of "rights" should be brought into...this isn't something that you can legislate. And I don't think it's about being an asshole either. I just think that the mother's comfort should be the priority, and ideally that would be something that would be understood and agreed upon.


By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:33 pm:

    whatever term suits your take on gender and sexuality spider...i don't have a term to use that wont conjure up other ideas, so ok that aside.and its not that i disagree with what you are saying either, its just tripping me up, the inconsistant logic.

    thats all. carry on.



By Spider on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

    WTF, Patrick. I think the mother's comfort is important. And I think birth is not just about the mother, but also (brace yourself here; radical thinking ahead) about the whole family, and fathers are a part of families, too. So if the father wants to, and if there is no compelling reason why they should not be present (which would include the mother's strong preference to be alone), he should be present for the birth of their child.


By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:01 pm:


    ok. so tell me, hypothetically speaking....say nico got pregnant as she did. not planned, but not exactly smart sex either...but the fault for that lies with us both. i dont want the child i ask that it be terminated....how much of a important part am i in that instance? how much of a right do i have there? mother trumps father by citing right over her body. why cant mother trump father in the delivery room?

    WTF is right.


By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:03 pm:

    and its been your turn for a couple of hours now hon.


By Spider on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:13 pm:

    You're asking a hardcore Catholic what she thinks about that mess of a situation -- what do you think my answer will be? In my opinion, the only thing to do is to give birth to the child and give it up for adoption. But I REALLY do not want to discuss abortion, so let's not go any further with this line of conversation.


By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:21 pm:

    what do i think you answer would be? i take you for a progressive, so I think your answer would be as such, with consideration to your religion as well as your intelligence.


    ok. we talkie no more about the subject spider.




By Antigone on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 04:25 pm:

    "I just think that the mother's comfort should be the priority, and ideally that would be something that would be understood and agreed upon."

    A woman who would feel uncomfortable with me in the room while she was giving birth to our child is a woman I wouldn't agree to marry.

    What if I said my wife should have to be under general anesthetic during childbirth? She'd be more comfortable then, right? Comfort is the priority, right?


By trace on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 04:28 pm:

    "A woman who would feel uncomfortable with me in the room while she was giving birth to our child is a woman I wouldn't agree to marry."

    Absolutely.
    Of course, Eri wanted her mom in there as well.......

    Which is of course fine, she could have anyone she wanted in there, but damn


By J on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 04:55 pm:

    Patrick are you and Nico going to take childbirth classes?


By kazoo on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 04:58 pm:

    "What if I said my wife should have to be under general anesthetic during childbirth? She'd be more comfortable then, right? Comfort is the priority, right?"

    it depends on how you are thinking about comfort...I am talking about whatever creates the best conditions for the mother. it's for her to decide (hopefully with input from others and to the degree that such things are feasible) how she wants things to go.







By patrick on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 05:03 pm:

    tiggy do you have a list of questions you pose to a potential wife or what?


    J, not yet. we are looking into it...soon, but not yet.


By Antigone on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

    Nah, not really, but we'd probably end up talking about everything eventually.

    You should ask my potential wife. She might be lurking around here somewhere. :)


By Nigel Mason on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 06:18 pm:

    hmmm...I find this coversation facinating. I wish my late girlfriend could weigh in. We had a similar conversation once.

    Anyway, her family is from Egypt...her grandmother was Bedouin. In every sense of the word, they assimilated, and were pretty much secular, western, liberal, etc. Her father and uncles had their moments but for the most part, were okay. However, there were a few elements of their culture that they retained. One of them being the traditions around childbirth, which is wholly the domain of the women.

    I don't know that much about it, only that when her nieces and nephews were born, there were only women involved. She was there for all of the births and it seemed to be something they really cared about and made her really happy. I remember when one of her nephews was born. And I know that all of her sisters except for one married Euro-American guys. I also don't know how much tension it caused, but obviously not that much.

    I'm pretty sure Lila would have compromised, but I think it would have bothered her a lot. Her grandmother would have probably thrown a fit, but her mother would have taken care of that.

    Okay, this is a unique scenario, and most likely a woman with these traditions would probably be committed to others and wouldn't want to marry someone without those values. So maybe none of you find it relevant, but I'd be interested to know what you think.


    I think that if it had become an issue and I really wanted to be with her...I'd step aside. I mean, all of our other values were in synch.


By agatha on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

    Dave was there 100%, and I wouldn't have had it any other way.


By J on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 01:18 am:

    Right on Agatha,been there too.


By J on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 12:39 am:

    He actually helped me to remember how to breath,just cause I didn't carry on out loud,didn't mean in my mind I wasn't screaming"WHAT THE FUCK WAS I THINKING?"The stitches ala naturual wasn't pretty and the shock was wearing off with Ryan and when they stitch the box up,I did swear at Dr. Burton.


By Spider on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 08:31 am:

    Heh, my mom needed stitches, too. My dad was there during the birth and passed out after seeing all the blood.


By kazoo on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 09:01 am:

    Nigel...I hope she wouldn't have wanted a Bedouin wedding.

    When my mother was in labor with yours truly she was in a room with a woman who was screaming...scared the crap out of me mum who was just wimpering...unable to scream due to her irish catholic "keep it all inside" upbringing. My father was not allowed in the delivery room. He told me it was because the doctor was an old-fashioned one, but I do not believe him entirely. There were a lot of issues surrounding my mother's pregnancy with me; things that I am just starting to learn about.


By J on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:48 am:

    I know how that goes I had just had Amee when for some reason I can't remember now I got a hold of my birth certificate and realized my mom was 5 months pregnant with me when they got married.


By kazoo on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 11:09 am:

    My parents were married for three years before my mother got pregnant. Right before she found out my father had to be hospitalized for one of his worst bouts of mania. I found out last year that when she found out she was pregnant, no one except my grandmother was happy about it. They really had no idea what was going to happen to my father or if he would even recover. Then he started telling her that he was in love with another woman (My father told me this last year and then apologized) but chose her when he found out that she was pregnant.

    She was two years younger than I am now. I can't even imagine.




By wisper on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

    "The stitches ala naturual wasn't pretty and the shock was wearing off with Ryan and when they stitch the box up,I did swear at Dr. Burton."

    oh man, that is so inspiring. That makes me forget why i don't want kids. I'm gonna have 6 kids!

    box stitches. Sweet merciful crap.


By patrick on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

    with all the vitamins and prenatal care they have these days....babys are coming out huge!


By moonit on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 04:13 pm:

    My mum was 17, my nana had dragged her down to the armpit of New Zealand to have me and made her wear a 20 cent ring, so all the other mothers in the hospital wouldn't know she wasn't married.

    I guess they figured it out when my father never turned up to visit.

    Mum kept me a secret until she was seven months pregnant. I can't imagine it.


By J on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 12:10 am:

    God bless your mom for having the guts to have you with so much bullshit on her,you are special:) Patrick my biggest kid was Heather at 7 pounds 12 ounces,but once they hit air they were all the tallest kids in their class,I always blamed it on the hormones in meat.


By Joe on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 04:19 am:

    it was interesting reading this thread one year later. all of you are so intelligent and i'm such an asshole. i just want all of you to succeed and be happy in your lives. i see in you what i believe i saw in me and my friends 30 years ago. that's all.


By 8 on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 09:55 am:

    By Nate on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:56 am:
    the artificial expectation of monogamy.

    ---


    yehhah real fucking intelligent.mm roket sighance.



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