I don't know if this is an appropriate thing to discuss during confession, but I'm going to try to get some answers today. Throughout the month of August, I was going to Eucharistic Adoration almost every day. Usually it was a very peaceful, calming (but also energizing) experience. Then, one night towards the end of the month (shortly before I moved), I had a very odd thing happen to me. I sat there reading, and I remembered that you get a partial(?) indulgence when you say the rosary in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I don't have the attention span, usually, to say a whole rosary, so I decided I would just say one decade and that would still be a good thing. It took me about a half-hour to say the ten prayers because my brain just went off. It was like every neuron was firing at its full action potential. My head was a ball of noise, and also, I wanted to knock everything over and destroy the place. I felt hot and nauseated and I couldn't sit still. I forced myself to say the prayers, the whole time arguing with myself as to how many I should say ("just say 3." "No, I'm saying 10." "All right, 5. Come on." "No, 10!"). When I was done, I ran out of there, and by the time I reached my car I was calm again. The next night I went back, and I was fine. So a couple weeks ago, I went to Eucharist Adoration at Catholic University. When I went to the church around home (the one mentioned above), there would be (usually) just one other person in the whole chapel besides me, and we would just sit there in silence. At CU, the whole chapel was packed, with people kneeling in the aisles and down the steps out the front door. Everyone sang, and there were readings from the Epistles and sermons, and there was confession afterwards...a very big, noisy, crowded deal. And the strange "distraction" happened to me again. I couldn't sit still. I couldn't concentrate on a single thought. Everything was grating on me. I wanted to run out of there, but because of the crowding (and the fact that I was there with two friends), I couldn't...I had to stay where I was. Then, my friends wanted to stay afterwards for confession. I, of course, didn't go because I was so irritated. Because of the long lines, I ended up sitting in my pew for an hour and a half, waiting for my friends. The entire time, I was feeling the most unpleasant emotion I have ever experienced. I don't even know how to describe it because it was nothing I have ever felt before. I sat there in the dark, crying, trying not to show how agitated I was. When it finally came time to go home, I couldn't talk to or look at anyone. If I had opened my mouth, I would have screamed, and if I had looked at someone, I would have hit them. When I got home, I just went to bed. I was completely fine the next day. I want to know what was going on with me. These were not my usual "freak-outs." If I had to come up with an explanation, I would say that there was a demon inside me that couldn't bear to be in the presence of the Eucharist and was going beserk, but that sounds crazy. I'm going to see what a priest tells me when I go to confession in 15 minutes.

if it's not too personal, I want to know what happens. xoxo

Apparently, I was attacked by demons who didn't want me to be there. The priest said there is always tension between God and the Devil and that sometimes people are the battleground, so to speak. He said to ask God for help, strength, and protection when such things happen again. All right. And on a side note, I thought his penance was too light. Not that I want to flog myself or anything (and I was very happy with the way he made me feel good about myself and not like I was on the expressway to Hell), but at least give me some prayers to say or some acts of charity to perform. Thank you for your concern, Gee. What have you been up to lately?

Jah. Lots of love and luck. Hail Eris.

rhiannon, demons are metaphor. they are mythical. they don't really exist. i think it was low blood sugar and pms.

'course, could've been God teling you to get outside and get some fresh air. I always get agitated when I am in churches of any sort, and it gets worse when they start quoting scriptures to justify some sort of bigotry. Like that last wedding I attended which was Catholic. (No offense here Rhiannon, it just happened to be Catholic). The priest lectured teh couple and by proxy the congregation like we were a bunch of delinquent school children and the scripture read was all about hwo the wife's purpose is to make the husband look good and how she was supposed to be subservient to him. I about clawed a series of scratch marks into the pew ahead of me. How vile. But I suppose I needed a reminder of why I left modern Christianity behind.

Dave, excuse my indelicacy, but I haven't menstruated since June. It wasn't PMS. God doesn't do anything that causes the spirit to become disturbed. It wasn't endogenous anxiety, because I would have recognized it as such. It wasn't even anxiety. I don't know what it was. If I choose to believe it was a spiritual assault, all that comes of that is that I will ask God to help me if it happens again. I'll do nothing irrational or extreme. Andy, concerning the letter of Paul that asks women to submit to their husbands, I always tune that out. I'll tell you why, too: You'll notice that the messages contained in the New Testament are very different from those of the Old Testament. The explanation for this is that the people for whom the OT was written were not developed/evolved enough or ready to hear the message of the NT. Just as an individual starts off fearing God and thinking that God is quick to anger and condemn people, and then they grow in understanding and come to love God and trust in His mercy, so too do whole cultures grow in their understanding of God. So the people of the OT weren't ready for NT thinking. Likewise, the people of the NT wrote and heard such things as this letter of Paul's. It would have been inconceivable for them, in their culture, to hear and accept a message of gender equality. They weren't evolved enough. We are evolved enough. Therefore, I think it's unfortunate that we continue to use Paul's reading in church services, because it is an outdated lesson. Remember, too, that Paul is the author. I'm not saying anything attributed to Jesus is outdated. Paul, however, was not divine and -- miraculous revelation aside -- was as subject to error in understanding as the rest of us. Including me. :) But I think that the whole women-be-submissive-to-your-husband deal does not apply to the people of this time. Keep in mind, though, that the next line is, "men, love your wives." So no one was saying that women are to be trod upon by their husbands. Also, some priests just aren't very good, unfortunately. This is especially true if he was old, because it used to be that many men went into the priesthood for reasons other than having a true vocation. My father was sent to the seminary just because his family couldn't feed him anymore. He never wanted to be a priest. It was also true that many gay men became priests rather than out themselves...they probably weren't called, either. This is why the Church asks everyone to exercise his or her conscience in all things...because the truth can be obscured by human failings. Your objections are always valid if you use your reason to your full capabilities and pray for guidance.

Using my reason to its full capacities is pretty much why I left the church in the first place. I pretty much agree with you Rhiannon on most points. (although I tend to think that the god of the OT and the god of the NT are not the smae deity.) But considering that the NT is 2000 years out of date, concerning cultural relevance, why hasn't it been updated then? Although there is the Koran, and the Book of Mormon. And the Book of the SubGenius. And Dianetics. (that was a rhetorical question, btw)

If gods with me, he/she's with me... If not, then he/she's not... I don't look at it as a big deal, I live my life as though he/she is not there, if he/she is then hey I've got some backup.... Makes for less stress, than constantly wondering what god is thinking about what I'm doing... Also, if you want the particular twist on this story look up the word Pantheism... Thats what I am a Panthiest...

That's the thing about being Catholic...you have the Bible and all the writings of the saints to clue you in about what God wants. God wants us to love as much as we can. That's the bottom line. And effort and intention count. No stress necessary.

What god wants, god gets, god help us all...

Rhi, you could do a little research on incubus and subcubus angels...demon possession...soul stealing and possession. There are malevolent spirits for sure. Most churchy folks would call em demons. But not all are demonic at all. And, possession is real. Sounds like the priest soft pedalled this to you. I work with some interesting priests who do healing work with other priests. Your parish priest might not believe strongly in either possession or demonics. Had he, he would have recognized the intrusions of other spiritual entities into yours. But you know the angst you felt, and as you said, it wasn't the normal angst, or anything you could recognize. And no one here, including me, has a clue as to what it is/was. Who knows? Just for starters, as you appear to be the church going type: A decade ago I read two books by Frank Peretti, books obstensibly fiction, that detailed very closely what some know to be true: that spiritual warfare occurs all around us. One title is This Present Darkness, and the other, Piercing the Darkness. I can't remember which one I liked, but one I found boring. The other I could not put down. It identified what I had been experiencing for years and years. Some might argue we have or even invite our personal demons. Others are simply souls --the grays-- who are caught bewtween life and death. They lurk around and find their way into another soul most often when unconsciousness or injury or surgical anaesthesia occurs. We are at out most vulnerable during these times. Shortly afterward I was led to renew my acquaintence with non-ordinary realities which I had neglected for some time--raising kids, building businesses, getting divorced. The last ten years have been mindopening expanding and unbelievable. And if you want to get a good understanding of the underseen universes (which the Scientists here at Sorabji will poo poo)... Read Tom Cowan's Fire in the Head, or Sandra Ingermann's Soul Retrieval, for up to date current versions of what may be occuring. Not only are these current explanations (not new age at all), they are profound spiritual insights to shamanic practices which undergirth most every religion. I usually don't speak out on this stuff, but...

Speak out all you want, Daniel. It's a welcome change to talk about this with someone who takes it seriously and doesn't think having spiritual beliefs is stupid and a waste of energy. I believe there are demons. I don't like how the current trend of pop spirituality would have you believe that everyone who dies goes to heaven and there are only good angels floating about. Evil is a very real force and needs to be acknowledged. What was that catch phrase in "The Usual Suspects?" I agree with it. I'll try to find the books you've recommended. Thank you for the suggestions.

hey, I just saw The Usual Suspects tonight. what're the odds? Rhiannon, I think your faith is very refreshing. it seems like whenever you bring the whole subject of god and religion up around here it quickly turns into a "I don't believe in god, and religion ruined my life!" rant by others. it seems like what you're trying to say just gets buried. I hope that doesn't happen here, too. do you have any reason for believing in Good and Evil, or is it just a feeling? I find it very difficult, sometimes, to explain why I believe certain things.

I just finished watching Contact! Who'da thunk it? What are you implying, Gee?

i believe in god, but i believe in a different type of god from many people. god can only help people to help themselves. there is always a lesson to be learned, a higher level of sensitivity to be reached. i think we gain awareness in each lifetime. a new sense, if you will. we might just be entertainment for a bunch of superbeings. like an antfarm or simlife, only bigger.

I never said I was'nt a believer,I know there is REAL evil in this world,and Real good.I just think God is Buddah,or Mohammed.or bla bla bla,I just don't know what to call that higher power,I think I'll call him Chuck,and if that higher power really loves me,it's all good as long as I still speak to that higher power.Tonight I will say a prayer to my higher power,another one,someone I really loved,God take care of Gloria she's coming home,take care of the mother I never had,see that she doesn't have to ever know pain again.

i wish that i had a strong faith. i think it would make things a lot easier. i remember math class in high school. i remember people questioning the quadratic equation. why? why? why? me, well, i was like it is that way i can't explain it, but i believe it is true... i had faith in mathematics. god... well... that's another story. god is no quadratic equation.

I want to make a disctinction: I don't poo poo religious beliefs, only people who use them as justification for holding other people back or justification for their own evil behavior. It's nice to say that God is all about love, but from what I've read in the Old Testament, Seems he was once all about hate too. (One big reason I tend to think that there are two distinct deities in the Bible). What I do believe about the spiritual side of things is that if it is truly unknowable by science, then we really can't ever hope to understand it. I also believe that no spiritual book or writings can compare to trying to personally and actively seek the divine in nature (which, btw, is one reason I don't like chuches. Like Homer said, "We've built a nice little prison for God.") I think another big reason I turned away from modern christianity is that it's way too easy to use it as a crutch for not thinking about the consequences of your actions (example: the "God hates Fags" folks), or as an excuse for not thinking about something ("Well, the Bible says this, and this guy who died 1950 years ago said this, so that's all I need to know."). I find it more stimualting and challenging spiritually to actively question and consider theological matters, whcih sometimes has lead me to believe that there is something out there whcih is unknowable and that there my be an afterlife. At other times, I tend to think that there really isn't anything out there, and that when we die, we're gone. ( A truly frightening thought). But I refuse to go and believein God and an afterlife because of that fear. I want to believe in God because of experience. You have no idea how often I've asked for some sign, some connection. The closest i've gotten that I can remember is the time I took mushrooms out ont he shore of Lake Superior and caught a glimpse of what seemed to underlie our direct observable world. I envy Crimson her hauntings.

God lives in each of us. Hope y'all can find him/her. My god is the idea I use when I need a starting place to try to reconcile the universe I see, one of many disparate things, and the universe I feel/believe, in which there is only one thing, one mass of energy. Personify that idea, and call it God. Thou art God.

God is dead.

danke.

god probably isn't dead. i can understand ascribing an intelligence to the universe. i'm just not at all convinced that it knows i exist in any personal way. faith is beyond me, even faith in the statement above. the best description/idea i've ever heard about god is in philip josé farmer's "the unreasoning mask" which describes god as a vast being whose body is made up of cells that are entire universes. it's whole body is, in fact, a pluriverse, and we are merely parasitic, cancerous phages inhabitating it. it has no significant awareness that we exist any more than we are aware of the mites that live upon the desquamated-cell munching mites that live on our eyelashes. i'm comfortable with that.

god wants a warehouse of smur

mmmm. smur.

god wants January

I didn't mean you, Sem, in particular, just the Scientists....I like the idea of direct revelation very much. My friend Woody Kipp, a healer somewhere out west now, says that the direct revelation of divinity is theoretically available to each of us...but that is helps a great deal to have some discipline and to work at what AA calls that "conscious contact" with whatever higher power you choose. Meditating, music, drumming, long distance running, even adrenyline rushing sky diving...can bring you closer to the divine...specially if the c h u t e doesn't open. Drumming is safer than ayahuasca or psilocybin or amanita ....good ten part harmony and a hangover in a cathedral can do it for some. Give me a tree to lean against any day. Nature, any where in nature, and even the bookstore late in the afternoon can be as much or more spiritual an experience that a month of sundays for some.

i like to commune with a birch tree. or read philophosy. some impressionist poets provide insight on how the universe works. i like rimbaud.

Those damn Scientists.

God is a smurf. And Raibowbright was there to teach small children to be crule to tiny forrest creatures.

Damnit. God blows right now. If he exists.

spider, you gotta admit, you had to expect the cynics to reap their heads a little from the post. It's not that anyone doesn't take you seriously, but considering most here don't share your faith.... or ANY faith at all.....you can't be surprised. Last night i had a discussion with friends about spontaneous combustion,the reality of it, the potential that it can all happen with a simple thought, the power of mind....apparently there was a documentary over the weekend....... anyway, with that fresh in my mind....i don't doubt you felt the way you did. Explanation? Man, the possibilities. I know it against your faith, but do you take the pill? Have you taken the pill? Those lil buggers can mess people in such a way. As far as the demonic explanation your priest gave you....well.....obviously I can't buy that. What you described, seriously, sounds like me when I'm in a church, in particular the church my paternal grandparents went to, southern baptist...bully pulpit....serious thumpin going on here and I'm convinced that is partially to blame for my late dad's problems with guilt...nonetheless, I have very few memories of this place, they only took me there once or twice as a kid, when i was spending the weekend with my Dad....the last time i was there, was for my father's funeral, granted, under difficult circumstances, but when i walked into this place, i felt like you did....and when i think of this place, i feel like you did.....it's very disturbing.....i would be looking towards something that perhaps has emotionally distrubed you, as of recent or perhaps as a child. I don't deny the potential for a "demonic" or rather a (negative) spiritual explanation, but I'd look to the self first.........in regards to spontaneous combustion, WE are more powerful than we know and before I start citing divine intervention...look at yourself....

Oh--and I forgot to add that having spiritual beliefs is neither stupid nor a waste of energy. Sometimes faith keeps us stronger than anything else would, and I admire people who are able to stick with the faith. I have respect for any follower of any faith who is respectful of my choice not to follow a faith, and who is genuinely faithful themselves. I kind of dislike people who go to services once a week, act devout, and then abandon any pretense of following the teachings of their holy book. But it sounds like you actually are devout, and that impresses me. I used to be Greek Orthodox, because I went to several years of school in Greece and it was drilled into me. I really appreciate separation of church and state here, let me tell you. Anyway. Despite having religion crammed down my throat, I remained faithful for a while, and then decided that I couldn't deal with certain aspects of the faith (the Eastern Orthodox Church is really into submissive women and punishment), so I decided to become athiestic. Although I do mis the services. They were a lot of fun. Anyway. Yeah. I'm going to go back to work now. Maybe.

my head becomes a ball of noise every once in awhile. i believe it to be the conscious mind fighting that which would brush it aside. meditation, for instance, the rosary; a removal of the willful mind. then again, who knows. i believe i've seen indications of the demonic. i've read some who believe the catholic church does not support the idea of demons. then again, i've read St. Thomas Aquinas. (Summa Theologica I, 114: 1-4) i would assume it is just your brain fucking with you. you should force yourself to do the whole thing once a week.

thats sounded like me, last night, riding with a girl.....friend....whom has an insatiable taste for crappy music, like, Brittany Spears, Ratt, Poison.........i told her when i got in her car, that she should play it, play it loud, sing in my face......the fact the she is so brazen, and blase at how unpopular her tastes are is quite neat.....it was a torturous ride downtown.......but I embraced it, with the reassuring thought that i can't have my little garden of eden all the time.....that this is one way or another beneficial to me.......

tangent on something i've been thinking a lot about. drugs, and why i don't do them anymore. besides being boring to me now, drug use seems to be a very masculine path toward mental and spiritual expansion, revelation, exploration, or degrees of enlightenment. "blow your mind". pow! bang! the drugs act quickly, agressively. the by-products are toxic; your biological self is left with the duty of mopping up the leftover poisons from your neurological pathways. historically speaking, the most recent psychedelic frontier was bushwhacked mostly by men. a patriarchy of cowboys. i still believe that THC has many medicinal properties. however, like any medicine, it is toxic rather than medicinal if not used properly and consciously. you only need such a little bit. maybe i'm just getting old, but getting totally stoned and whacked out on it is no longer fun or even enjoyable. it's constricting, rather than expansive. there are so many other ways to explore your spirituality, or The Meaning Of Life. softer, gentler, longer, spiralling ways. i'm fully agnostic. however, i do believe what Jesus said - if he himself really said it - is true: we are all Children of God.

actually, we are all god.

even Mike Tyson?

spooky, isn't it.

Especially Mike Tyson.

Rhi, Not to dis/but if that was really a 'demon' inside you/it wdn't have simply let go once you left the church grounds. I know people pho-poo demons these days/but there are also folks who see a demon under every doily/which is ridiculoius. Getting a little stir-crazy/even wanting to open yr mouth & scream in church/isn't demonic. (Haven't you had that same urge to scream in the middle of the library during reading period?) It's just a physical manifestation of pent-up anxiety or stress. Intensive prayer makes most people antsy becuz they're not used to being so still for so long. Demonic possession is something else. It's not transitory. I'm not Catholic/but I did a 2yr-bid in Catholic middle school eons ago. But I am a Christian & from all I've read & heard/demonic possession isn't like tripping on the curb. It doesn't just 'happen'. If you are a person of faith who genuinely believes in God/the spirit of Christ indwells you/so no demon can take up residence there. If you are a non-believer who chooses to delve into demonic practices (Nazism, White supremacy, black magic/White magic/Santeria/etc.) then you can open yrself up to demonic possession/ depending on how fragile yr mind & personality are. If you are a believer who isn't walking in fellowship w/God & you start falling back into former bad habits/or letting yrself develope new habits you know are detrimental to yr spiritual life/& you refuse to turn away from that mess & ask God for forgiveness/you can certainly end up demon-possessed (i.e. an alcoholic/sexaholic/ crack-head -- take yr pick.) If you choose to become a 'channeler'/medium/or any other person who claims to speak w/the dead or w/spirits or angels (puleeze -- don't *even* get me started on all this angel-worship crap!) /then you are actively inviting demonic possession. But not becuz you can't recall how many rosaries you've said. Don't mistake me -- this planet *is* a battleground. God & Satan & their respective camps are struggling for as many souls as each of them can claim. But once you accept Christ/you've chosen sides. Satan may harass or tempt you or try to lead you astray. But he can't 'posess' you becuz you belong to God. But do you really thinkg God cares how many times you utter a particular prayer/or whether you say it in front of the blessed sacarement vs. at home in yr own room? No offense/but that was my biggest turn-off w/Catholicism -- all the ritual & ceremony & showboating -- which seemed to me to only distance people from God. It seemed to be all abt the traditions of men/rather than the teachings of Christ. But y'know/that's just me...

i don't know about showboating, but the ritual and ceremony can help the faithful focus on their faith. we all belong to God, even the demons.

DAILY LIFE OF THE POSSESSED In the majority of cases, the possessed individual appears to be "normal." The possessed can attend church services, work, raise a family and participate in other activities as well. The possessed victim goes through cycles more or less. The possessed may be fine and function normally for months on end until something triggers an attack. Many times this attack is attributed to a religious holiday or event. Personality changes are one of the most significant outward signs. This happens when the spirits inside of the victim take control. The victim becomes "on edge" filled with anxiety, anger, and hatred of all things. The hatred extends to friends and loved ones. The victims' behavior is irrational or strange. The victim feels a loss of identity and cannot distinguish who they are or what they have become. No longer can the victim communicate with others as previously. It is much better in the victim's mind, to hide away from everyone. The victim feels that no one understands them. They feel all alone, almost as if in a different plane of awareness that no one else has access. Sometimes internal voices urge the victim to do things that is against their nature. It comes to the point where it is impossible for the victim to discern if the action or thought is originating from their own being or from the demons inside. A feeling of insanity tortures the victim and hopelessness is the only life they know. They become puppets of the evil one. Personal appearance, dress, house chores, bills that need paid, and life in general are of no concern to the victim. The victim views their own life as an unproductive waste and death is welcomed. The victim can find no reason for existing. No longer is the victim able to see good in themselves; even though they want to be good, they feel damned. Every moment of torment, of being damned, is like an eternity for the victim. Will it ever end? No one can comfort this poor soul, and heaven forgive those who add unnecessary torment to this soul when in such a state. There is no way to describe this torment unless it is experienced. Sometimes the victim will be totally taken over and will not remember what happened during the day. In church, the victim intends to pray, and without knowing, begins to scream obscenities or make strange inhuman cries, growls or moans. When told of such behavior, the victim cannot believe such a thing could have taken place, for they do not remember. Not all possessed individuals will react in this manner. Some may find that every time they go to church they are nauseated, filled with fear, anxiety, even suffocation, they find it hard to breathe, and their mind wanders. When they take communion, their mouth and throat burn as the sacred host is consumed. Sometimes they do not even remember being in church, and cannot account for this time. Symptoms of possession vary, but again, having these symptoms does not indicate possession, these symptoms were simply relayed from one who is possessed. Not all cases are the same.

is white magic considered "demonic". i thought just the opposite. A lot of the "showboating" of the catholic faith, if i am not mistaken came during the renaissance, at least architecturally, as protestantism and the sciences were gaining momentum. Suddenly earth was not the center of the world. the church was loosing influence, so they built these amazing, over-the-top churches like St. Peters in Rome to keep people interested.....to keep them jazzed about the catholic faith, to hang on to their influence. I'm sure there's more to the equation but i suspect a lot of the hoopla was created to keep people coming. Hey Rhi, if you don't mind, I'm curious what you think of something I heard a blurb about recently. Regarding the Pope giving sainthood to a particular pope that was considered anti-semetic....way back when....you know the story?

there's an old legend that once a woman disguised herself as a man, became a priest, and eventually became pope. apparently she had an affair with one of the guards and became pregnant. while giving an easter service, she went into labor and gave birth. she and her child were torn apart by an angry mob. or so the story goes...

Yeah, hence the reason they still check to see if the Pope's got nuts.

Pope Joan rules!

There's so much I want to respond to, I don't think I'll get to it all. I'll try to go in reverse. Patrick: I haven't paid too much attention to this story, so what I'm about to say might be completely wrong, but I think the pope you're thinking of is Pius XI, who was pope during WWII and was accused of anti-semitism because he didn't officially denounce Hitler. There has always been a big uproar over this, understandably so. However, my family is friends with two old Italian priests who lived in Rome during the war, and they were a part of the secretly-papally-sanctioned underground, which hid Jews and other persecuted people in convents and monestaries throughout the countryside. These two priests recently gave a talk about the pope's actions during the war, and they said that had the pope declared his opinion of Hitler and Fascism, the Vatican would have been destroyed, just as a city in Holland was destroyed when the local bishop spoke against Hitler. The pope felt it was better to keep silent and allow the underground to continue working successfully than to speak out and bring about the destruction of the city and all the helpful/hidden people in it. Two more things: 1) the process of canonization is very strict and (with the exception of the "legendary" saints like St. Christopher) it is very unlikely that someone who doesn't "deserve" to become a saint is canonized. 2) Catholicism is absolutely opposed to any kind of discrimination. The current pope has written a tract restating the position of the Second Vatican Council that all that is good and holy in all the religions of the world is valid and to be respected. If you want to know what the pope has to say about a good many things, go here: Crossing the Threshold of Hope 3) I like the ritual and formality of Catholicism. I like the call-and-response format of Mass, and all the icons, and the different devotions, and the saints....I like feeling a part of the traditions -- which, while they are "of men" are also linked back to Christ. (One of the "nicest" things about Catholicism is that *everything* the Church does/teaches is supported by Scripture. And everything is constantly being studied and reviewed to make sure this is the case.) There is a lot more to spirituality than the ritual, of course, but I find it all very helpful and literally supportive. It's easy to focus on what you're supposed to be focused on if you have all these visual aids surrounding you. Concerning possession: I didn't really think I was possessed...I was just saying that that was one explanation I could come up with for my disturbance. Though after reading what Nate posted, I would say that I can empathize with that description of possession, especially the second paragraph. Not that I was possessed...but if I did in fact come in contact with a demon (that sound so crazy), I'm sure it would produce similar symptoms. Also, I didn't think that my inability to pray the entire rosary was the *reason* I was being bothered as I was...it was more of a sign that I was indeed being bothered. Also: whatever I was feeling those two times in church was not normal. I know myself very well, and I know 1) I have never felt that way before and 2) it wasn't coming from me. I wish I could explain what was going on better. It wasn't sadness or anxiety or guilt or frustration or a mixture of those things....it was something completely new and alien to me. It wasn't even an emotion....it was like a whole new system of being or something...it involved all of me. I think I got over the disturbance because I was able to talk about it with someone very wise and I persisted in praying despite feeling like I shouldn't do either of these things. This is why I need discernment of spirit...I can't tell when thoughts/messages/etc come from God or from somewhere else. In terms of what God cares about re where and how we pray, I think He doesn't care as long as He sees we're making effort and we have faith. It's more of an effort to go and sit still in a chapel for a half-hour than it is to pray in your room. And I know I have considerably more reverence in my attitude when I'm in front of the Blessed Sacrament than when I'm at home because of my beliefs associated with Eucharist. These are the things that count. It's like holy water: the water itself is no different from tap water...it's your faith in the blessedness of the water that counts. And to answer what Gee asked a while ago: I don't know that there are reasons for belief. The belief is either there or it isn't. Even when I had serious problems with Catholicism and Christianity, I always believed that there was a god/goddess/spirit out there who loved us all. I just did. I think also, this is like asking Patrick why he loves his wife. I may be putting words in your mouth, Patrick, but I would venture to say you would respond by saying there is no *reason* for your love for your wife...it's just there. You don't love her *because* of anything...you just do. Am I right?

One more thing: about the God of the Old Testament being a different deity than the God of the New Testament -- I read several books when I was a kid that disturbed the hell out of me. One was called "The Red King." I remember reading it and thinking it was gross and dirty and a terrible book. I read it again a few years ago, loved it, and couldn't for the life of me remember why I had thought it was so bad. I think I just wasn't ready to read it when I was 10, whereas I was ready at 18. It was the same book, but I had entirely different interpretations of it because of the state of my mind. See what I'm saying?

interesting. y'know all the stuff you dig about catholicism? i get all that by going to parliament/funkadelic shows.

george clinton for pope in 2001! we could go to mass together.

One second, Rhi... (since we're going there anyway.) If Catholicism is so scripturally-based: Where in the scriptures does it say you're forbidden to eat meat on Fridays? Where in the Bible is the process of canonization outlined? The biblical references to 'the saints' always refer to believers who died for their faith. They aren't elected saints by men. Where do the scriptures tell us that us that we must confess our sins to a human intermediary in a screened vestibule in a church? Where does the Bible say that reciting so many Our Fathers absolves you of X sin/& so many Hail Mary's cleanses you of Y sin/& doing an act of contrition makes up for the the sinful behavior you exhibited last Tuesday? Where does the Bible say that priests can't marry? Where do the scriptures describe Purgatory & say that loved ones can buy your way out of it thru the sale of Indulgences? That was just a money-making scam created by the church during the Middle Ages to fleece the poor. The practice has been abandoned/but that's no better than the wolf locking the door to the chicken coop after he's done feasting. Where does the Bible allow for more than 100 million dollars that the Catholic church has paid out over the last 25 years -- both before & after law suits were filed -- to compensate or hush up those who were molested as children by priests who were responsible for their spiritual guidance? Where do the scriptures instruct believers to pray to & worship Mary & all the so-called saints/considering that the 1st of the 10 Commandments specifically warns us "Thou shalt not have any Gods before me"? Sure, Catholics claim they're not deifying Mary or the saints. But when you pray to someone or thing/it becomes a defacto god. Who else does one pray to but a god? You call them 'visual aids'/but why are Catholic churches filled w/statues of Mary & the so-called saints/wood or plaster or stone figures that people kneel & pray before daily all over the world/when the biblical Commandments tell us straight up not to 'create any graven image'? Where do the scriptures outline the practice of granting 'annulments' for the rich & sanctimonous/so they can get away with divorcing & still remarry in the Church? "The pope felt it was better to keep silent and allow the underground to continue working successfully than to speak out and bring about the destruction of the city and all the helpful/hidden people in it." Didn't Christ spend most of adult years speaking out against the hipocrisy of the Pharisees/the corruption of the politicans & religious leaders of his day/& the deviant practices of pagan religions? And when push came to shove/if Jesus himself didn't hedge his bets/fudge or fake his message/or fail to point out evil as evil-- not even to save his own life -- what excuse can any pope give for not denouncing the Hilter & Nazism/ when it might have made all the difference? The current Pope has no problem denouncing homosexuals or abortion - under any circumstances - even basic birth control. The papacy has always been knee-deep in the politics of it's day/becuz Rome knows that the Catholic church is as much an institution as any gov't./& realpolitics keeps you in the game. That's why teh Vatican insisted for so long that the Mass be held in Latin/even tho' no one's spoken Latin for more centuries. Cdn't Christ have made all the same excuses that are made for Pope Pius? Cdn't he have kept his mouth shut & not admitted to being the son of God/in order to protect & save his church/& for the future safety of those who believed in him? There was a whle lot of persecution against the early Christians immediately after his death & resurrection. But he wasn't going out like that. He died for his church at the time & for everyone who chooses to believe in him since then. And Christianity has managed to survive & thrive for 2000 years. I'm not knocking you for loving yr religion, Rhi. But if you're going to say Catholicism is scripturally-based/it shd at least jive w/the all of the 10 Commandments.

if you go there, RC, you might as well point out how fucked all of christainty is, considering Jesus and his apostles all thought of themselves as a jewish sect. In fact, they continued to be practicing jews for the rest of their lives. it wasn't until Paul had his "vision" on the road to damascus that he (Paul) decided that the christain movement should drop the bulk of the jewish law (kashrut, etc.) Paul essentially invented christianity.

it's precisely because of all of these inconsistencies that i have no respect for religion. even the major eastern ones, which i think are much healthier, are little more than crowd control. and jesus was not the son of god so knock off all that silliness.

"That's why teh Vatican insisted for so long that the Mass be held in Latin" Thank God I am not the only one to mistype "the" from time to time. The whole problem (In defense [sort of] of Rhiannon)with the argument that Catholicism doens't really follow scripture is that it's all interpretations of translations of a dead language, which in itself was translating another dead language. The potential for confusion and misinterpretation is so great, that it's nigh impossible to even tell what's meant by "graven" for example. First off, you need to figure out is that's the real correct translation of the Latin, then figure out if the Latin translation of the Aramaic is correct, then try to understand the contextt of the Aramaic equivalent term for "graven". Like, does it apply to all images, or only those that are sculpted or carved? If the later, then paintings, mosaics, sketches, etc. are A-Ok. However, to be somewhat impartial, I have to point put all the "heresies" that were judged by early Church councils as not Scripture. One fallacy a lot of people get into is thinking that what's in the New Testament is all that was ever written about Jesus by his contemporaries, which is probably not true. There seem to be other accounts that didn't really jibe with what the early Church founders wanted their CHurch to be, so they got pitched. I think my big question is this: Are the rules set out first for an initial pastoral/agricultural society about 3-4 thousand years ago, and then second for an Iron age Mediterranean society 2000 years ago, appropriate for this society? If the CHurch is really so against discrimination, then where are the female priests? And finally, I think the Pope that Patrick was referring to is not the WWII pope, but one from the third quarter of the 19th century, who was loved within the Church hierarchy but pretty well despised otherwise.

On a lighter note: Steve the Gothic Archaeologist has an idea for a t-shirt (guaranteed to piss off many people): "I died for your sins and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

that's good. religion is so confusing. people should be a little less serious about it. i mean, is belief worth a life? crusades. that's all i have to say. what's up with that? raping and pillaging "in the name of god". pah.

I seriously looked into Rastafarianism,but I can't cause I'm white,talk about discimination.

I seriously want to be a Rastafarian,but since I'm white,they won't take me,that's just not right.

oops,I thought I didn't post the first one.

that's bullshit, j. i know lots of people white and otherwise who are rasta. it's not about skin color....

If I got stopped for having pot on me,I couldn't use my religion Rastafarian,wouldn't fly in court,I said I looked into it,and now you know why.Can't say I'm an Indian(feather not the dot)and do peyote and get away with it either.

"Indian(feather not the dot)" I like that, J. May I use it instead of saying, "Indian Indian as opposed to American Indian"?

yep:)

i don't get caught doing drugs. i've figured out how to condition my mind into a state that seriously feels good. it's called alpha waves. i've heard that some poeple have trained their minds so well that with a radio transmitter, they can send morse code messages just by flexing their gray matter.

Hmm. Interesting...tell us more?

i'll have to dig out that book my dad has lying around...i did my experiment on esp two years ago. the sophmore science project, pah! there's supposed to be a parental knowledge phenomenon. that's the only thing my experiment did prove. your dad's far more likely to know which finger's going to be up than your cousin. i'll dig out that book. after i finish cleaning my room.

Guess I'll say it one more time. Hail Eris. Now go stick your head in a toilet.

Nothing is more annoying then getting a song 90% downloaded, then get a Transfer Error! Especially at 45k..... ugh

who wans to work for http://www.thecorporation.com/

Through The Eyes of dArKnEsS I live in darkness Slink in black shadows Know of the sweetest sadness The deepest of pains Yet everything's a little clearer Through the eyes of darkness I fall into darkness Feeling a little safer As the beauty of the blackness Surrounds me Tantalizing with mystery Teasing with sensuality I bathe in darkness Soaking in the thick black water Feeling it cleanse me Clearing my mind While drowning my memories I've become one with darkness No sun dares to shine here I lost my heart when the lights went out Laughter is an ancient sound I won't ever hear again

What I've Seen I've seen the darkest places Abandoned spaces Lonely sullen traces Of superficial faces I've seen the cruelty Of other's scrutiny Too much insincerity Lacking sensitivity I've seen slivers of souls Trapped in vacant holes Heartless acts of shame Fire lacking flame I’ve seen the world turn black And I won’t change it back I’ve seen a cloudless sky Reflected in my eye But even mirrors lie Leaving me asking why This is what I’ve seen Through a blackened screen I take darkness to the extreme Wondering how I still dream

snork

?

is that your poetry trace?

Sadly, I cannot take credit for them, no.

"white rasta" is an oxymoron.

Don't be sad, baby. Don't cry. Or wonder why. or try to fly. 'Cause I love you. The skies are blue. My heart is true. And cow's go MOO. don't get sad. don't even get mad. You've been had. Next time Poetry.com offers to send you a volume of the best of modern poetry for only 49.95, say no. MOO.

i disagree, swine. that's like saying "black christian" is an oxymoron.

wack comparison. the statement "it's not about skin color" is wack too. anyway, i've had this conversation often enough to know that it doesn't go anywhere. i probably call what you refer to as "rastafarianism" something along the lines of "whiteliberafarianism". anyway. go fish. when you find the link that tells the story of white men going "home" to ethiopia to reclaim their heaven on earth, then i'll know you caught a whopper.

i found a poster that i made in first grade. it includes a cow (presumably...it has four two-toed legs, udders, and a horn) saying "moo" as it eats grass, and a little girl with flying hair (it looks like wings, sorta) saying "me" and "cow cow" although saying two things at once confuses me. oh, and the big round yellow sun with the rays coming from it. can't forget that. now for the caption: "i loved alpenrose dairy. i was happy. i love yogurt. i wonder, what would it be like to work there. i have ridden a cow before, but i fell off. i love cows and i think the cows love me. well, i had a fun time!" the only difference between the computer version and the original version is the capitals.

i probably call what you refer to as "rastafarianism" something along the lines of "whiteliberafarianism". i'll thank you for NOT doing that..... swine, i've had this conversation more than i care to myself. i've met my fair share of "trustafarians" too, and that's not what i'm talking about. that's a bunch of cheesy bullshit.that's some college kid's wet dream of how to smoke more dope.... i know four people who are what i would describe as "rastafarian". they all live by the word, do not drink or consume fruit of the vine, and are strict about their religion. just because one of these folks has light skin doesn't mean they are less valid, or that their beliefs are not to be taken seriously. that's all i'm saying.

Something about "rastafarism" grates on me. I don't know what exactly it is. It doesn't grate on me the way pretentiously "magikal" people do, it just grates on me for some reason. Argh. I can't explain it. But whatever. I'm going to go back to work now like a good person.

what grates on me about it is all the people who pick and choose what they want from that religion (i.e. dreadlocks and pot) without getting the point, and label themselves "rastafarian"....it makes the word this trendy catchphrase for faux hippies and liberal-arts college attendees. my apologies, swine. i am sorry. i must have sounded like every other self-righteous white chick ever when i said "skin color doesn't matter." that isn't what i meant exactly.....

I'm no kid,and that was my general idea,to smoke more dope,and peyote.Didn't think anyone would get their tits tangled about that.Sheeesh

pick and choose...and ignore the fact that the children of zion are all black. "Rastafari is a movement of Black people who know Africa as the birthplace of Mankind "

What i've tended to observe is that all really religious motherfuckers are full of themselves and should be avoided. "When dealing with a religious son of a bitch, ALWAYS get it in writing!" -Burroughs

is it possible we can get a scanned image of said tits in a tangle? thank you

Yeah...that'd be nice.

patrick, that's what i love about you.

so that means you will comply?

Maybe. I don't have a scanner anymore.

a xerox and fax will do email for my fax number

*laugh* K. When I get that xerox off...

RC, I want to answer your questions, but I can't right now because I don't have enough time or the resources I need.....I'll try to answer them by tomorrow afternoon. One thing, though: I did say Catholic teachings are "supported by Scripture," not "described in great detail in Scripture." For example, there is no line in the Bible saying "don't eat meat on Fridays." There are lines in the Bible (e.g. Acts 13:2-3) that mention the Apostles practicing abstinence, fasting, and praying before engaging in a liturgy. Meat used to be considered a luxury, so it became part of the Catholic tradition to abstain from eating meat as a way of denying oneself a luxury out of respect of the holiness of the day of Friday (traditionally, the day on which Jesus died). Nowadays (the Church constantly reviews its teachings, remember...same with simony, which was *never* doctrine and always considered sinful -- Dante, writing in the 1300s, put simonists deep in Hell, for example. Just because it occurred frequently doesn't mean it was allowed. Look at all the people who live together without being married in these times.), abstaining from meat on Fridays is voluntary, not obligatory. I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll be back tomorrow.

Reminds me of the George Carlin bit. "The winner of this weeks church raffle will be allowed to eat meat next friday....."

I just read Nate's posting regarding the daily life of the possessed and it describes my X-wife. No joke.

Actually, as a cattle tick as birth, I recall there being some imperative to eat fish on Fridays. Some cynic told me it was actually made church law because of a fish glut in Ireland. But I don't have any evidence to support this, so feel free to hit me over the head with a bleeding heart Jesus statue.

fish is not meat, so you could still eat an animal.

you could eat me.

I am eating a lot of chunky peanut butter lately.

Food sounds good. I should find me some of that. I had vegan corn chowder yesterday. It was surprisingly tasty. Yum.

hi marge.

"fish is not meat" it's not often regarded as such, and seaweed isn't a plant. so what is it then? and if you just say "fish", then i'll be mad. it's not fruit, or vegetable, or starch, or even dairy... i'm waiiiiting...

It's, um, fish. It's a type of meat, technically, since it's the flesh of an animal, yes? Seaweed rules. I ate seaweed for lunch. With some other stuff, of course. But mostly seaweed. Yum!

fish is not considered meat by the catholic church as far as not eating meat on fridays go. i know. it was van de camps every friday of lent all my growing life.

"Meat used to be considered a luxury, so it became part of the Catholic tradition to abstain from eating meat as a way of denying oneself a luxury out of respect of the holiness of the day of Friday (traditionally, the day on which Jesus died). " Now people in the Fond Du Lac valley have made it part of their culture, irregardless of religon, to eat Fish Fry every friday. and it's not fish fry, it's Fish Fry, and it has to be fried. Crazy how that got turned around, huh?

My brothers' names are (no kidding, here) Fritz Fry and Fred Fry. you could all eat them, instead?

my dad once knew someone named dwane cane. he named his daughter candy cane, then changed his name to xeno west.

I went to school with a girl named Candy Kitchen. Also, my friend had a teacher named Kermit P. Weaselquist. It's just not fair. I used to have a friend whose last name was McWeeney. Man was he sensitive if you said 'OK McWeeney.', even just joking around. He wanted to go out with me but luckily I was not interested and hence my name is not Dinner McWeeney

I know a guy named Jason Smith. isn't that a riot??

My aunt is named Cookie Kitchen! She married a grave digger named Kitchen! And the family call her Cookie!

My husband once answered a call from a Seymore Wiener.Had a uncle named Looney Ball.

Isolde and I know someone named Figbar. I really can't think of a way to top that. My grandparents knew a family, last name of Tree, who's children were named Jack Pine Tree, Mary Christmas Tree, and Douglas Fir Tree. I'm still not sure if I believe them. I also met my very first Joe Smith when I moved here. I'm always hearing about how many thousands of "Joe Smith"s there must be, running around the world; I've only run in to one.

You mean my dad?

i had a friend named ignacio "iggy" telzroi when i was a kid. a few years ago, i almost bought a condo from a guy named cletus "clete" doogs. that's where i got the name for the "evil meat" story. but i based the characters on my great-uncle and -aunt newton and ola mae perkins.

anita dick. my friend's neighbor when she was growing up. now, there's an unfortunate name.

How about this: Jack Hoff Jack Raymond Hoff, 69, died Tuesday in Nathan Adelson Hospice. He was born March 22, 1930, in Trenton, N.J. An Army veteran, he was the owner of a lawn maintenance business and a 36-year resident of Las Vegas. He is survived by his daughter, Patricia Polk of Las Vegas; and one grandchild. Services are private. Bunkers Eden Vale Mortuary handled arrangements.

could no one tell that I was being sarcastic?

Why fucking bother?

Of course I hope you have all heard of the NH congressman Dick Swett (I shit you not!)? When I was a kid there we also had a congresswoman named Dudley W. Dudley. Her name was Dudley and she married someone with that last name. One of my old friends and I are bound together forever by having family friends named Sis and Pickles. The difference is my Sis and Pickles are two women who were friends of my Nana and my friend's Sis and Pickles were M/F and were married. Also my uncle dated a woman who had an 'Uncle Funzi' and 'Aunt Titsy'. Now we call my Uncle, 'Uncle Funzi'.

A former governor in Texas James Hogg,named his daughter,Ima Hogg,is that cruel or what?