hi all I sure know what its like to be strung along. I was with this girl for 7 yrs engaged for 5. she kept tellin me she was going to marry me but never would go through with it . she is now parting with some guys from work .I made the mistake of getting her a job at where I work boy does it hurt. Even when she is with her new boyfriend she calls me . I finally had to tell her to please leave me alone .Do good guys finish last? Or are there women out there who can appreciate a guy who will treat them well and reciprocate. Its been a little over a year now since she left and im finally starting to get over my heart being ripped out of my chest and stomped on.

No good guys don,t finish last,there are people out there that will appreciate you,you didn,t know about them cause you were with someone who used you for 7 years.Now you go out there and find her,you might have overlooked her when you wasted 7 years with a bitch.

i finished last, last night.

Come on what did you do?

I FINISHED last like every good guy should right? COME on J read between the lines here.

Sorry hon,I,m slow,but now I got you,have you heard from fetidbeaver?

nope...

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys go out with horrible women who abuse them. I have too many male friends who fit this description. It is a great challenge for the 14 and 1/2 decent people on earth to find each other AND go on a date.

i would be interested in meeting the 1/2

This is very reassuring. I've been feeling mildly guilty (knowing I did the wrong thing, not tearing my hair out) because I put off breaking up with a guy for a day because he was coming round to fix my door. There's nothing like moral relativity to ease the soul, eh?

Taetia - No no, I think that fits into the all's fair in love and war thing. Don't worry you didn't break any rules which they could put you in horrible girl prison for

Well shit. I was looking forward to a stint in the lezzo lockup. What do I have to do win my Prisoner spurs? (ref to bizarre Australian soap set in a women's prison, for those unfamiliar with Australian high culture)

Prisoner of Cell-block H? I loved that show.

For the love of Bob, why?!?!?!? Here it was just called Prisoner.

Lizzy and her line "well bugger me gently".

Wasn't the Prisoner a show about some secret agent who wasn't allowed to retire and he was trapped on an island with giant balloons? You know: "I am not a numbah!" I've heard this cell-block H show being mentioned before. was there a character named Vinager Tits?

DRUNKEN RANMBLINGS I saw HIM tonight. I didn't mean to. I knew he'd be working; therefore, IO could go anywhere except where he worked. WRMNG> FUCKING WRNG. the first place was fine. the second place was fine. but the third place -- he was there, taking a break, getting drunk during his lunch hour. FUCK. it wasn't even my idea to go there. am I over him? I guess not, because when I went up to talk to him,. my hands fucking SHOOK. FUCK. but at least I didn't cry. I didn't even come close. I am still not crying. so one week over, I am pretty much over him. we talked. I left my friends and we sat and talked. I said things that were true in a tone that made them seem like perhaps wthey were not. I told him that he broke my heart for 24 to 48 hours. I didn't know exactly. I could have figured it out, I told him, but I didn't feel like it. then I figured out that it wasn't even 24 hours that I felt heartbroken. but maybne I felt that way for a whole week. maybe I still feel that way, asshole. he asked me if I like dtim burton. NO, I said. he asked if I'd ever read any of his poetry. NO, I said. he said that he had read a poem a couple days before called "voodoo girl" and he thought, "I know that girl," he said. smething about getting close to her, something about pins going deeper. what the fuck ever, dude. then he aske dme if I read any dorothgy parker. hah ahhaha. YES. I have the important stuff memorized, I told him. he said he figured so. he said he also thougyht of me today but he wouldn't say why. he also said he ;liked my letter. he has a girlfriend now. fucker. asshole. he told me that he thought I preferred tragedy to a real relationship. he asked me if I'd read "othello"; I said no. I explained myself. I'd gotten a crush on him too late -- isn't that tragic? I felt sad for almost two days. "I wish it ha dbeen longer," he said. "no, you don't." although that wasn't what I was thinking,. I thought that he should feel flattered that I cared about him for that long, that I cared anbout him at all. he was on his fucking dinner brealk. goddamn. I thouhght I could avodi him on a satirday night, no problem, as long as I didn;'t go to the trendy restauarant,. he was drinking bloody marys on his fucking dinner break atthis other bar where me and my friends went. damn. I thought we could talk in a light, joking tone about how I fell for him too late. not that it fucking matters. "I thought I was doing you a favor, :"he said. "YES, YOU WERE," I said. beacuse that much is true. I shouldn't like him, the fucker. I am so glad he released me. thank fucking god for that, right> at som,e point, probanly right away, early on, I said that I thought we could nbe friends. he said he would like taht. but that's stupid, meaningles, a dumb thing to say. then, at some other poimnt he said, "you are such a beautiful girl, j." that's what's importanbtr. I know that he reakly thinks that, that he's one of those guys who thinks that I am really attractive, fior real, pretier that the other girsl. so. so what? so I can maybe get him back, just to realize that he's not worth it> that I can't fucking be with him. fuck fuck fuck. I can't tell if he's affected at all or if he in the throes of new relationsjip, you know, when everything is LAL GOOD and NOTHING ELSEmatters exept the new chik.guy./. next time I see him I'm wearing stockings and garters just like he always wanted, FUCKER, SSSHOLE.

Fuck him,he sounds like an asshole,you shouldn,t even waste your time.He sounds like he,d fuck himself if he could.

he's not an asshole. he's never done wrong by me. we've always told each other the godawful truth. but you're right, I shouldn't waste my time. I wasn't planning to see him or call him. he was just there, even though he was supposed to be at work. god, I am so dumb. it wasn't that fun. but now that it's over I can be a historical revisionist. he told me I'm "such a beautiful girl." I know this counts for something. (oh yeah, I'm not going to waste any more time with him.) as dorothy parker once said (again, I know): because your eyes are slant and slow, because your hair is sweet to touch, my heart is high again; but oh, I doubt if this will get me much. ----------- so silent I when love was by he yawned, and turned away; but sorrow clings to my apron-strings, I have so much to say. ----------- oh, there once was a lady, and so I've been told, whose lover grew weary, whose lover grew cold. "my child," he remarked, "though our episode ends, in the manner of men, I suggest we be friends." and the truest of friends ever after they were -- oh, they lied in their teeth when they told me of her! ----------- why is it, when I am in rome, I'd give an eye to be at home, but when on native earth I be, my soul is sick for italy? and why with you, my love, my lord, am I spectacularly bored, yet do you up and leave me -- then I scream to have you back again? ----------

Dorothy Parker on a dreary rainy Monday morning. An undeserved, unexpected pleasure. You constantly underestimate yourself.

did you know she's buried in baltimore, markus? I read that in an old vanity fair the other day. her grave is outside the naacp office there. so yesterday I looked up all the stuff he mentioned saturday night. because that's what you do when someone tells you they read a poem and it reminded them of you. well, that's what you do if you're me and someone tells you they read a poem and it reminded them of you. but you're not me and never will be. I couldn't find the tim burton crap on the web, so I found it at a borders store. I forgot what the book is called, but it's like a mix of crispin glover, edward gorey and shel silverstein, except it's not any good. this particular poem is awful. it reminds me of 8th grade english class, when we all had to write and recite our own work. I'd prefer to remind someone of a coleridge poem or something. "hypno-disk eyes ... hypnotize guys"? the meter is all wrong, too. is that the right word? it doesn't flow right. some lines have too many syllables ("and she has many colored pins" -- he should have left the word "many" out). ok. ------------------------------- voodoo girl by tim burton her skin is white cloth and she's all sewn apart and she has many colored pins sticking out of her heart she has a beautiful set of hypno-disk eyes, the ones that she uses to hypnotize guys. she has many zombies who are deeply in her trance she even has a zombie who was originally from france but she knows she has a curse on her, a curse she cannot win for if someone gets too close to her, the pins stick farther in. ----------------------------- I also read "othello" last night. because I didn't know anything about it. but I still don't understand why he brought it up. iago wasn't very convincing. othello should have clocked him in his muthafuckin face.

No, didn't know that. I'll be in Balmer tomorrow or the next day. I'll take a look around if I'm allowed out of the bars.

I know it's cheesy, Cyst, but I always assumed you walked "...in beauty like the night, of cloudless climes and starry skies...." I don't really like Byron, but I always liked that one. And it really does seem apropos re YOU.

Nobody feels any pain Tonight as I stand inside the rain Everybody knows That Baby's got new clothes But lately I see her ribbons and her bows Have fallen from her curls. She takes just like a woman, yes, she does She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does And she aches just like a woman But she breaks just like a little girl. Queen Mary, she's my friend Yes, I believe I'll go see her again Nobody has to guess That Baby can't be blessed Till she sees finally that she's like all the rest With her fog, her amphetamine and her pearls. She takes just like a woman, yes, she does She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does And she aches just like a woman But she breaks just like a little girl. It was raining from the first And I was dying there of thirst So I came in here And your long-time curse hurts But what's worse Is this pain in here I can't stay in here Ain't it clear that I just can't fit Yes, I believe it's time for us to quit When we meet again Introduced as friends Please don't let on that you knew me when I was hungry and it was your world. Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes, you do You make love just like a woman, yes, you do Then you ache just like a woman But you break just like a little girl.

Hint: Nice guys always finish last. it's part of the Conspiracy that women have to tell them there are plenty of women fo rthem out there for you , and not to worry , you'll meet someone just for you. After this, The Conspircay makes sure that girls don't even look at you for the next five years. Ok, maybe I am bitter, but the truth hurts, no? PHHHHBT! (cough, wheeze) actually, I think that many nice guys are alone because they are mortaly embarassed at having to use the cheesy pick-p lines their friends use, even if they work. Some guys have charisma, some don't. A charismatic mother-fucker beats a quiet nice guy any day.

a friend has been trying, "hey, didn't we go to different high schools?" you guys are so nice to me. I think you're all crazy. I think soon I'll have too much homework to be my own tragic hero, so yesterday I put together a packet of things to mail to him. he's going to think I'm crazy, but that's ok. it's nice when the psycho people in your life just send you weird things in the mail, right, as long as they don't call you, right?

I think it's really interesting when people write in All lower-case letters, except for "I". Ben Ohmart capitalizes the first letter of words he wants to emphasize. I stole that from him. I think for the most part it goes unnoticed, but I still like doing it.

"I" as a word looks so goddamn weird lower-case.

It looks ineffectual in lower case.

i don't care i am ineffectual

that is exactly the point about small i's. i only like nice guys who don't try to pick up on me. every once in awhile, i used to end up dating an asshole, but that was only because i thought that they were really nice guys who weren't picking up on me. it was a "nice guy" ruse for them. the only men i have ever dated that have pursued me have been total mistakes, except for one. dave is incapable of picking up on a woman. he feels like too much of a creep. i think that's one of the many reasons i liked him at first. also, his rebellious fuck authority-punk rock attitude which i must now admit gets irritating sometimes. now. i want cyst, sarah, and margret to stop being so fucking insecure. i mean, really, i don't even know any of you and i can tell that you are completely worthwhile and cream of the crop type women. just please let some nice guy in to your communal hearts. no games allowed. just do it when the opportunity comes along. do this for me. okay.

actually, my lover man and i have been dating since july and we get along terrifically and he is a nice guy and was my best friend for two years and he's cute and he's smart. he just dated some totally hot psycho before he dated me. and i know all about it because when it crumbled about a year ago i was the one he called on the phone. and then the one he left the message for my then-boyfriend for saying "you know I love your girlfriend, right? you know how lucky you are, right?" i am totally happy with everything, even our sex. just KNOWING that she blew his mind makes me anxious every once in a while. so, i've memorized the script nate gave me and if i ever feel inadequate at an especially sensitive moment, i will break my fist on his jaw and tell him to put it in my ass.

has anyone here ever heard of pentagon.com? they seem to have very cheap cds. can I trust them?

okay. i am no longer worried about margret's self esteem. cyst and sarah, however, are different stories.

I worry about Sem,s too.

Cyst,trust no one even remotely affiliated with the pentagon.

"dave is incapable of picking up on a woman. he feels like too much of a creep." dave and I have something very fundamental in common. I could never do the bar/singles thing. My punk rock mentality has been refined over the years I must admit.....although my pompous attitude puts nico in a virtual padded room......at times anyway.....

at least you can admit it. that's a good thing.

yeah well, i find myself on my knees sucking virtual cock in apology more and more, but today I am also in self depracating mood so, yesterday i wasn't pompous and never have been, today I always have been and should be punished severely for it.

at least you have a job that's not dumb. at least you have goals and motivation and direction. could be worse. you could be me.

awww stop it, my job is totally dumb, why do you think i hide in here for 8 hours a day and irritate you kids.....???? but i will be the first to say i understand your mood and recognize your entitlement to feel like shit, it's ok every now and then..... if i had super cool (natural right?) red hair and an amazing offspring like yours sure i'll be you anyday,

Agatha,you are a good mother,thats a job that will go on long after you,re gone.I should spank you for saying that,I should spank Patrick just cause I think he,d like it.

Cyst: The next time you get a case of the Mean Reds (becuz you are truly a Holly Golightly throw back if there ever was one)/I want you to put on yr favorite little black dress (& if it's a chic little shift w/a kick pleat, so much the better) & some Ray-Bans/grab yr most expensive handbag/& got out for a promendade on the nearest crowded street. Watch how many heads you turn (male & female). See how many people you catch whispering "Ohhhh look! That's, that's...." Notice how many guys try to catch yr eye behind yr sunglasses/hoping you're checking them out as hard as they're checking you out. Have a seat at the nearest outdoor cafe & order yrself a cockatil. Sit there & sip it & watch the world go by. Politely refuse all attempts to chat you up/buy you a drink/a meal/a Bulgari necklace/no matter how many admirers approach you. Pay yr own tab & walk home alone. When you get back to yr flat/take a good long look at yr gorgeous self in the mirror & remember that you spent this day alone becuz You Happen To Enjoy Yr Own Company. As long as you can say that & do that/having or not having a man won't be an issue. You know you've got the knack to attract & you can afford to be very particular. And when you least expect it/on the day when you haven't washed yr hair/& you're wearing yesterday's t-shirt & no make-up/& you just got yr period/Mr. Marvelous will show up. And you will be smart enuf to recognize him & centered enuf to receive him/becuz you haven't worn yrself into a neurotic mess by wasting yr time on entanglements w/undeserving men. He'll show up when you least expect it. But his tmiing will be perfect. Becuz Love's timing always is.

As for you, my sweet Sem: STOP w/the cynic act already! I know you get frustrated sometimes/but you're smart enuf to know that Nice Guys Do Not Finish Last. Becuz Love is not a race -- it's a journey. And who you share that journey w/is what makes the difference btwn rapture & ruin. Stop belittling yr own strengths: "Some guys have charisma, some don't. A charismatic mother-fucker beats a quiet nice guy any day." Says who? Sure, Mr.Life-of-the-Party may get the most immediate attention from the ladies. But with a flock of females all around him/most women are too intimidated to even think abt approaching Mr.Charisma. Even bodacious babes like me don't like the idea of having to take a # & wait in line just to get to talk to a guy. So while he's holding court/we're wanderding around the joint /looking for someone who seems approachable. Someone comfortable enuf in his own skin that he doesn't need to be the center of attention. A Quiet Nice Guy. And if he turns out to be an anthropoligst AND in a rock band... ;) And if he doesn't go into a paroxysm of nerves & doesn't spill his drink when we say hello/& if he manages to be smart & funny & attentive & interested in us/HE'S the one we'll be giving our digits to at the end of the nite. Becuz we've been there & done the Mr.Charisma thing & we know that a charming bastard is still just a bastard in the long run. Women like to think that YOU think we're Special. A guy who can charm the pants off any girl usually will. But a guy who's an Undercover Charmer/who saves his best jokes & clever lines & intense eye-contact gazes just for us -- that's the guy we want to call us the next day. Don't give up on yrself, Sem. And pls. don't give up on us females. You're at the difficult late-20's stage of life when it seems that if you haven't hooked up w/a S.O. by then/you never will. But fret not -- the best years of Life & Love & damn near everything don't start 'til you hit 30. And suddenly/all those users & airheads & women you wish you'd never met from yr 20's will evaporate into ether. And suddenly/you'll find yrself surrounded by scores of single women who are as educated & accomplished interesting as you are. And suddenly/You become a Hot Property. Life -- & Love -- will get Good. Just hang in there, Semkins.

And that's 'anthropologist'. And 'cocktail'. I really can spell when I'm not trying to type so fast.

yeah i agree R. C. , I think it's just all the waiting. I admit, i may have had more success in my dating life if 1.) I could tell the difference between when a girl is attracted to me and when they're just being friendly ( Fact: Every girl I have dated , I had no clue they were interested in me beforehand [i either ended up dating them by proxy or one of my friends told me they liked me *]), and 2.) If I actually had something in common with 90% of the women in the world. I think I am waiting for that crazy fool out there who's been throwing her hands up at all the guys who immediately turn to the sports page and never tried to learn something new after they got out of their education. Somehow, i doubt she lives in Wisconsin, cuz she'd be long gone by now. * note: at one point both of these happened to me at once. You can imagine my momentary loss of what to do here. The 17-yr-old friend of my friends new wife cuddled up to me (21) at the mini-reception afterwards, and then the next night I went out on a date with a 20 -yr-old Riot Grrrl and had incredibly good sex, and a good time otherwise. Of course I chose the Riot Grrrl! What are ya thinking? (Even though my roommate at the time advised my to go out with both of them. I really was more in tune with the R. G. than the teenager) so, anyhow, thanks R.C., you are a treasure. I don't know how you take this kind of sentimental baloney, but in a way you are like the (slightly) older sister I never had. Ok, put away your handkerchiefs.

I am/in fact/yr MUCH older half-sister/the product of yr father's secret-but-longstanding affair w/Tina Turner/whose music he listens to to only in his car on rainy nites. He's been meaning to tell you for years/but cd never find the right moment. But all shall be revealed in due time... (And wash those handerchiefs before you put them away!) And what the hell is 'dating by proxy'? Do you mean when yr friend takes summer job out of town & asks you to keep his girlfriend amused for a couple of months/so she won't get lonely & start prowling? You're supposed to ENTERTAIN HER -- not put the moves on her yrself, Sem! Add what exactly is a Riot Grrrl? I remember there was some chick who started a Riot Grrrl website a couple of years back/but I never really knew what their platform was or what the qualifications were supposed to be. As far as not being able to tell when a girl likes you or not: It's abt paying attention to the subtle cues, dig? If her dept. is on the opposite side of the bldg. yet she always seems to be passing by the kitchen when you're on yr way to get yr 2nd cuppa joe for the morning/& she always manages to say hello & exchange a few words/then she likes you. If she teases you abt stuff/esp. other women/then she likes you. If she regularly finds reasons to touch you: "Wait a second, yr tie is crooked...", "Hold on, you've got a schmutz on yr face...". "Is that a new watch -- lemme see!", then she likes you. If she punches you in the face & says "Stick it in my ass!"/then she definitely likes you. (But stuff like that only happens to Nate.)

agatha, I will be nice to some guy someday, I promise. for you. r.c., one of my new year's resolutions was to cut the holly golightly bullshit. but that was more about not taking any $50 trips to the powder room than not going out to coffee wearing givenchy. I can't wait to shop for the hat. agatha again, you're an olympian. do you have beat happening's "black candy" on cd? if so, would you tape it for me? sem - not that I should be giving any advice, but you should pretend you're a catch. as I've said before, I so couldn't believe that any guy would ever want to go out with me that I had to ask my first boyfriend if he wasn't playing some cruel joke on me. my god. I can't believe I really felt that way. why don't you deserve a spectacular girlfriend? you're smart. you play guitar. you're an anthropologist! (I was talking with the boy's housemate on new year's day and felt a keen sense of longing for him when I found out that he knew how the british committed complete genocide of the native tasmanians. god that sounds weird.) smart chicks dig smart guys. the only thing you have to worry about is your enthusiasm for the church of the subgenius. don't renounce it, but just play it down around any attractive fem folk you may meet, ok?

Holly Golightly is an icon, Cyst. Men adore her -- really! (The one's who know shit abt movies & fashion, anyway.) Don't dare give up yr HG routine! Esp. when so few women today have the looks or the style to pull it off. Beautiful girls today wd rather dress up like expensive hookers that like Audrey Hepburn. You're a 20-something -- explain to me why that is? Why wd someone as gorgeous as Jennifer Lopez show up at an awards ceremony in a dress slit to the navel/so her boobs are hanging out like a couple of pricetags (& she ain't got much boobs to show in the 1st palce)? Why do all the PYTs insist on going out in skirts so short they can barely sit down in them? Or slit so high up you can literally see their pelvic bones when they walk? Even if the skirt is Versace/don't they realize it makes them look like prostitutes? And that nearly every guy who approaches them has SEX in the front of his mind/ becuz of the signals clothes like that send? But Cyst/you can out-HG the best of them. Don't give it all up -- just get dressed up once in a while/pull out all the stops & leave a trail off enraptured men behind you whenever you're feeling lonely or down on yrself. (BTW -- where are you living now? Seattle?)

why isn't anyone worried about my self-esteem? I'm always complaning about something. Feel sorry for Me, dammit! today I saw the Map Library Boy for the first time since the holiday break. I was in a really low mood so I was really pleased when I saw him through the window. He always Always makes me smile, even when I feel like total crap. I went in and smiled at him and he just kind of Grunted hello to me. He did a little half-smile. Not the usual kind of smile he gives me. He used to give me special smiles that made me think he liked me but was too shy to move on it. Today he just grunted and half-smiled. I was so upset I thought I was gonna cry. Maybe he was really busy (he was sorting maps). I'll see him again on thursday.

Gee, as charming as your posts are,I can tell what a fun person you are.You said this guy usually has a big smile for you,so give him the benefit of the doubt,he probably was really busy,or just having a bad day.You could have used this as an opportunity to start a conversation with him,"Hey, you're not you're usual smiling self,is something wrong?" People love attention,people have an innate "need to be needed",so it might have broken the ice.Don't let it get you down,I'm sure it had nothing to do with you,he was probably just preoccupied with his own realities.I bet it will go better on Thursday.

I live in portland, oregon. I get dressed up all the time, r.c. I’m my own barbie doll. I think movie stars wear those slutty clothes for the attention. They’re much more likely to get their photos in people if they’re half-naked than if they’re wearing a classy sweater set. And so what if you make guys think of sex? I go topless on the beach and would go nude if I were happy with my ass. What difference does it make? It’s just skin. It doesn’t hurt anybody. I hardly ever see truly risque outfits here in portland. Pretty much no one here wears high-slit skirts or cleavage-baring tops. I think there may be one store in town that sells versace (saks?). do girls dress slutty in florida? tonight I wore a straight, slim-fitting black worsted-wool skirt with a tight, stretchy (10% lycra?) silver-gray sweater and black boots. with a dark-red velvet scarf and a long, slim black lambskin jacket I had made for me in turkey. my friend said I looked so sophisticated that I was turning him on. Isn’t that sweet? I’ve finally met enough guys who seriously like big butts and I’ve spent enough months stairmastering that I no longer worry about looking voluptuous from the back. not when I’m dressed, anyway. I’m now very friendly with tight skirts and sweaters. I got some looks, and one guy started talking to me even though I was with my young man friend the whole time. I knew he was interested, and at one point I turned to glance at his table, and at that moment he raised his voice to include me in whatever conversation they were having. “have you seen ‘beloved’?” he asked me. everyone at his table started laughing at him. I was too tired to be particularly friendly, so I just smiled and said no and turned away again. We were at some trendy, expensive club I’d never been to before (and will probably never go to again). my friend knows the guy in charge of local events for camel promotion, so tonight we went to some invite-only rjr party with free liquor, food and, of course, cigarettes. They were promoting the introduction of some new fancy-schmancy cigarettes that Icantellyourightnow are doomed to fail. SAMSUN. RARE. TWIST. CREMA. They handed out brochures to explain which cocktails and foods go best with each type of cigarette. The kids who were hawking them didn’t know shit about what they were supposed to say. Hahaha. at one point the guy at the SAMSUN table called them “samsonite.” They’re “delicate and fragrant,” and you’re supposed to smoke them with zinfandel, chardonnay, pale ale or dark rum. At the party they were serving them with zinfandel and quesadillas. I just had the quesadillas, which were cold, but I was hungry. The RARE cigarettes are “extraordinarily smooth and mellow,” and they’re supposed to be served with “cognacs, premium bourbons, scotches and tequilas, small-batch porters and brandy-based cordials.” I got some of the jameson whiskey (?) scotch (?) but it was yucky so I didn’t finish it. But I ate plenty of the food complement, black and red caviar on water crackers. I hadn’t had caviar since last winter in kiev. I love popping the little eggs on the roof of my mouth, then feeling the saltiness spread through my mouth. I probably ate half their black caviar. I tried their TWIST cigarette, which features “a splash of citrus flavor.” We were supposed to eat brie on toast with this, and I was happy to oblige. And I had many of the complementary, complimentary cocktail, a “mandarin martini,” which contained mandarin absolut and triple sec, I think. I also had a CREMA cigarette, with which we drank guinness. I ate the eclairs solo, though. Yum. The cigarettes tasted like cigarettes. Except they’re supposed to cost $10-15 a box. Hahaha. think AGAIN. I felt like such a dupe, smoking because rjr told me to. I wanted to believe that their expensive cigarettes went well with the expensive food and liquors. But they were yucky. I guess I should have started drinking first, then it would have been easier to play along. But I had such a nice time tonight, I now have this vague feeling of goodwill toward rj reynolds and their camel brand. I told the camel guy how I love their pinup girl ads. I noticed that he and the other camel workers were coughing. But the flu’s going around. It’s snowing. Lots of people are coughing. His job is to schmooze in clubs and pass out cigarettes and talk to people. I wonder if he smokes with them all. I wonder how he feels about being a drug pusher, about fostering a dangerous addiction. I think he was getting tired of his job, of having to remember people’s names. He said he really wanted to get home and see if he successfully programmed his vcr to tape "buffy the vampire slayer."

people who like to pay $15 for drinks shouldn't mind paying more for cigarettes to look even more special then there's the added bonus that the old cigarettes will start to seem cheap or- anything that expensive must be good for you

"Why wd someone as gorgeous as Jennifer Lopez show up a......SEX in the front of his mind/ becuz of the signals clothes like that send?" yeah but what quality of a man does this attract? Look at Lopez, she has a no talent crook for a boyfriend. If you are looking to score Joe-Six- Pack who thinks Maxim is a quality read, golf is challenging "sport" and Steak & Ale a great night out, than give it a go........... Cyst I think the type of guy that would appeal to you neither pays attention to short skirts and low cut tops, at least not initially anyway. I mean my wife was a rather conservative in her dress when i met her. A short skirt with a slit would have lessened my initial visual attraction. Maybe it's me, but subtle can be sexy more often than a glimpse of T&A. Go on with the Holly Golightly.......if it makes you happy. Both Nico and I get hot and bothered watching that flic, hell we own it. It makes for a great sunday morning straight outta bed film..........

gee, i haven't said anything to you because i don't think you have low self esteem. you seem fairly secure with yourself to me. and it sounds like your interactions with men are fairly honest. cyst, you do that. be nice to a guy sometime without having that fakey acting conversation with him. it will be fun. sem, your princess will come. i have no doubts about that. when is your wisconsin deal over?

yeah, sem. and have you met any of the that 70's show people?

i fucking love that show. i think it's my favorite show on tv right now. has anyone seen malcolm in the middle yet? it's funny.

Yes,I loved it!! The little boy that plays Malcolm reminds me of my grandson,except Jonathon is a little younger and blonde.Is Cleo in kindergarten?

yep. she'll be six in april.

Maybe that,s why you,ve got the blues too,I cried every time one of mine went off to kindergarten.Ryan moved out a few week ago,I like the quiet now:)

LMAO....just noticed this thread was under...What,s the cruelest thing you,ve ever done....shit,I,m dying here.

"Cyst I think the type of guy that would appeal to you neither pays attention to short skirts and low cut tops, at least not initially anyway." . . . patrick??? (everyone pays attention to short skirts and low cut tops initially)

not with any degree of seriousness. What I truly meant to say is, this is not the only way to get a man's attention. Eyes and body language do more for me than a skirt any day. I have always been taught that starting at a woman's gaping chest in conversation is just bad or gawking in general. Is this not the case anymore, or have woman accepted that as the inevitable nature of male? I think excesses committed by both sexes to appeal to the other are obnoxious and a general turn off. Short skirts, boob jobs, collagen lips, small tight vacuumed asses, excessive make-up, low tops, high heels, pumped up biceps, inflated masculinity expressed in either sports or automobiles............etc i mean, these things, individually, in moderation, done with taste CAN be sexy or appealing..... When i see a woman decked up in the shortest skirt, with ridiculous amounts of make up, purfume, beggin for male attention, it just seems so pathetic........and pathetic attempts like that bring pathetic results. Lowest common denominator. of course this is only my taste and well I am married so fuck it

I would also like to know why you people keep picking on Maxim. I like Maxim! It makes me laugh. Leave Maxim alone! I can always think of Something to complain about.

men women men women me women eomt magm gomeam.

Cyst: Patrick's last post said it better than I ever cd. (But then again/Patrick's married/so who the hell cares what he thinks!) The reasons the Jennifer Lopez' of this world bother me are varied. It's to do w/the fact that she is a P.R. girl from the Bronx. I am a Balck girl from Brooklyn (originally)/so Lopez is someone I identify w/as a Woman of Color who had "made it" in Hollywood. Or at least I used to.) I rememeber her from when she was nothing but a tacky Fly Girl dancer on "In Living Color". When I 2st saw her in a movie ("Money Train") I said "OKay, she's not too bad an actress. If she does he homework/she might do well for herself." Then I saw her in "Out of Sight" & said "WHOA -- Put her opposite a genuinely sexy & interesting actor & La Lopez sets the screen on fire!" I can't imagine anyone else playing that FBI agent or U.S. Marshall or whatever she was Factor in that the part was written as Italian-American girl w/Denis Farina as her father/& you realize it was quite a coup that Lopez landed that role. Then last last year/I rented "Selina"/which was the movie that really put JL's name out there. And she was *wonderful* in that role! She really bought a sweetness & simplicity to the character that made me understandd why Latinos loved Selina so much/& why she became usch a big star in the SPanish-speaking world. Then/Lopez says a bunch of really stupid, catty things abt Winona Rider (womeone she had never met)in a movieline interview she gave & I said "Damn -- what an ignorant twat!" On the day "Salina" opened/she had married some waiter in Miami named Ojani -- which I thought was pretty cool/since she obviously knew he had no $$ to speak of. A year later/she divorced him/claiming that she 'Knew it wd never work out/becuz he wd never make as much money as I do". ??!!! THIS from a girl from the Bronx whose parents were schoolteachers?! IMO/People of Color have no business making a few bucks then behaving like they were to-the-manor-born & can't be bothered w/poorfolks. ESP. not Puerto RIcan girls who name their debut album "On The Six" (supposedly her 'tribute' to the #6 train Lopez used to take from the Bronx into Manhattan). When he record breaks big/Lopez becomes the new It Girl of the moment. Designers start throwing clothes at her & she does the same thing everyone else does -- refusse to seek out any Black or Latino designers to give their clothes some exposure/starts dressing like a whore & dating Puff Daddy. Meanwhile/as Sister with impeccable credentials & real talent/like Angela Bassett/who always looks as regal as a pharoah's daughter/barely gets any work in Hollywood. She's smart & classy & extremely talented -- but what good does it do her? Which pisses me off/y'know?

you can never be disapointed by hollywood RC, it's only about money, everything else is incidental. There is a lot talent that goes unnoticed.

Winona Rider is a fucking cunt.

nico met her a few years ago at the Paladium, we got free tickets and backstage passes to the Foo Fighters and well she was chasing David Grohl at the time. Anyway, Nico went back stage and there she was, according to Nico, she acted and talked strung out. After having several friends as junkies, Nico knew the signs of someone high on heroin. She saw Nico smoking and asked if she had a cigarette she could bum and introduced her self, acted typiucally aloof and made small chit chat about the show or something. Then you hear these people on H.Stern or some show like that and they claim they are straight arrows. Jason Priestly is another example. We once saw him in a bar. He was sitting just a few feet away, head bobbing up and down, eyeing every skirt that walked by when his date wasn't looking. He had numerous martini glasses in front of him and his date. Obviously plowed. He is then reported to have a drinking and cocaine problem, a short time thereafter, he ven goes on Howard Stern and denies it all maintaining a squeeky clean image. Then about a month ago he is driving here in the hollywood hills, hits some trash cans and plows into someone's parked car. He was registered over the legal limit and insisted that an animal ran out in front of him, causing him to hit the other car. these kinda of stories run amuck around this town......

and Gee, to answer your question......working in the periodical trade here is my answer. I have personally, in the past, subscribed to Details, Detour, Gear, Maxim, Bikini no to mention the copies of all the other shit out there floating around the office. It has gotten to the point to where they can't sell issues without putting a half dressed woman on the cover. It's lame, it's old, overdone and otherwise a fucking bore. Where they lack in content (usually from page 1 to the back cover) they make up with tits and ass. Now I am a fan of tits and ass as much as the next guy, but the intergrity of these types of mags has been completely compromised by the fact they have to put a bushy tailed blonde to sell the damn thing. The writing quality sucks pure shit, and the overall value of these periodicals is next to nothing. But then again they are magazines, they are advertising vehicles designed to do just that. So long as the average Joe, remains, well, the AVERAGE Joe, they will sell issues, because the average Joe is easily entertained.

can you name me a magazine with integrity? the media is a wash anyway, might as well see some tits and ass. and pictures of lambs being eaten by fish.

yeah Aperture, Bazaar, W, Flaunt, Glue, Wallpaper......these subscripts replaced the aforementioned ones

do they accept advertisements?

well of course but that wasn't my point. My point was about the editorial quality. I accept the fact a magazine has to have advertising to pay the bills. Most magazines loose money in newsstand sales, the magazine i work for is not exception. Newsstand sales are for exposure more than sales. We practically dump copies in NYC because that is where all the advertising agencies are. We want them to see our rag whenever they go to buy a paper.

A man who reads W? Be still my heart! I'm not hip to Aperture? Is it a photo. magazine? And you shd add Vanity Fair to that list. Yes/ their focus is slanted towards Hollywood/but they have some 1st-rate political writers & they cover a lot of foreign affairs. I learn something new abt the world from VF almsot every month. I thought their piece on Matthew Shepard last year was outstanding.

utne reader. mother jones. ms. hip mama. these are my personal faves. what's maxim? and why is winona ryder a fucking cunt? i want to go see her new movie with angelina jolie.

my wife gets W because of the nature of her business. I look through it to check out the photos, and yes Aperture is a photo mag. Vanity Fair also had a hilarious article on Dr. Laura too, sometime last year. Maxim is a cheesy Men's mag agatha. Think Details meets Playboy..........

as I recall, w has plenty of tits and ass. just a lot scrawnier than the ones you see in maxim. anyone who doesn't like maxim must have missed the lucy lawless issue. hip mama? what's that?

The Economist. There's no other way in this country to get news about the rest of the world.

What does yr wife do again, Patrick?

doesn't a subscription to the economist cost over $100 a year?

The last time I subscribed was before I went overseas in 1993, and it was just over a hundred then. Well worth it, even when I was an impoverished student living on mac and cheese and PB&J. After you read it for a while, you realize again how insular Americans are. I think I'm going to start getting it again, but I already fall behind reading the Washington Post every day. It was better when I had more time than money, rather than the other way around. Not that I've got anything against the root of all evil, or anything like that. Don't get me wrong.

I actually started tallying up the breast pictures on the covers of W alone for a year or so, and was astounded. Something like 10 out of 12 issues sported a lovely set on the cover.

Jason Priestly was in the first episode of "Quantum Leap" I ever saw. I remember the bad guy tried to kill Sam and then hurt Sam's "sister" and Sam flew across the hood of his car and punched the guy out. I was so impressed. the bad guy told his gang to "get him" and Jason Priestly (part of the gang) flung his cigarette at the bad guy and said "Deffinatly an uncool move." Anyway, I still like Maxim. I've bought every issue since the first one I read (can't remember which one that was, but it was after Xena. I was really dissapointed I missed that one). I honestly think it makes men look really stupid, but in doing that it makes me laugh. Sometimes I like to think men can be controlled with a little sex appeal. It's actually the only magazine I regularly read. I refer to it as my Smut Magazine. I used to really love reading "Sassy" until Jane Pratt left ("Jane" just isn't the same), so what does that tell you? (also, I think some of Maxim's sex tips are really good for boys. most of the time. not everyone's a natural born lover, you know. I would encourage my lover to read it. I'll shut up now.)

curses her fate?

i subscribe to Details. someday i'm going to move to new york city just because i love that magazine so much.

i also have subscriptions to Entrepreneur, Life, Rolling Stone, Island Scene... and a few others. one is a writing/fiction journal that i can't remember the name of right now.

i just stopped getting architectural digest which had arrived for no apparent reason no offense to anyone but it reeks

pretty pictures. i subscribe to mother jones, maxim, bass player and playboy. i have problems with all of them. mother jones is horribly biased. bass player too often provides transcriptions of bass lines that were originally played on a keyboard ("livin' la vida loca" anyone?) maxim, well you know. magazines are mind fodder.

but Isolade, W oftens has butt loades of pictures straight from runway shows, often, they don't have under garments and are quite revealing at those shows. I see what you mean, but that magazine doesn't have the mindless "columnist" writing behind it to back up the tits on the cover. Besides, the demographics for that mag are mostly women. Ever since Details fired the publisher, Joe Something Something, the magazine went to crap. I enjoyed it up until that point, the change was very evident. Same with Detour, the original publishers have now started Flaunt, they got tired of Detour and the pressures from the president to appease the mainstream, so they left and started Flaunt. Also, Glue is a local LA fashion/scene mag, it is run by Laurie Pike and Annie Flanders, Annie started Details way back when and has since left because of the flack she had gotten. Often publishers are put in compromising positions from the owners of the company to appeal editorialy to the masses. It happened here and it happens eventually with all good magazines.

"Sometimes I like to think men can be controlled with a little sex appeal." This mentality annoys me and this is exactly what these mags are telling women, I like to think as humans with advanced thinking skills, we can overcome our loins when it comes to matter strictly unsexual. Not in some weird puritanical sense but I don't like being reduced by the advertising execs as one who is swayed by a great rack or ass.

Speak for yourself....I like to be swayed. :)

and exactly why these mags sell. because it's true. and, though i'm not willing to discuss it, this is part of the oppression of males.

why aren't you willing to discuss it?

because there is a serious lack of objectivity when it comes to this subject. women are so sure that they are oppressed and that the oppression of men is laughable that there is really no point in even getting into it. it's like arguing the existance of god with a diehard christian. it basically comes down to feeling beyond the realms of reason.

i understand

i'm not sure that i'd call it oppression but women can definitely (and sometimes suprisingly easily) have influence on men (like employers) in ways having nothing to do with talent or determination and in a publicly accepted way i think our clothes are more fun

I wish I'd set up the appointment with the nurse instead of the doctor. she's gonna stick her finger up my ass, I just know it. then I'm going to go play bass.

stop teasing the boys, cyst

hey, I just got an email invite to hang out and take lots of vitamin e. what the hell? is that slang for x? what other drug starts with e? he says "it's a talking drug." should I be scared?

no, it's X, thats all i have ever heard in referecne to "vitamin E" and I am confident after you take it he may have his finger in your ass. have fun......

answer to "That 70's show' question : No. However, I sort of know the town it's set in, Stevens Point, because my brother goes to college there. It's full of redneck nazis, no shit. the Indian character would probably have gotten his ass kicked quite a bit if that show was real. I am a freak for magazines ( I love getting mail) I subscribe to: Archaeology Discovering Archaeology Discover Details Newsweek Fortean Times George CMJ New Music Monthly Spin and probably a couple others i can't think of. Plus I recieve three different academic journals. Now I am trying to figure out what to do with all these damn magazines lying around!

Patrick -- you said: "Often publishers are put in compromising positions from the owners of the company to appeal editorialy to the masses. It happened here and it happens eventually with all good magazines." If it's all abt appealing to the LCD/then how come every new magazine -- Talk, Jane, Maxim, fill-in-the-blank -- tries to portray itself as being directed at the excruciatingly hip minority who are oh-so-in-the-know? When I got the trial issues of Talk/I certainly didn't think Tina Brown & the bros. Weinstein had created a mass-market magazine. Frankly/I thing TB was crazy to leave VF for a magazine that's nothing mor than a poor cousin to VF. But that's just 1 opinion. Isn't the point of a magazine to portray itself as 'exclusive' & suck everyone into thinking that they're cool enuf to be a subscriber?

but if they really were exclusive- they wouldn't make any money

Well RC, because they all start out thinking they have an edge, then they all realize the inevitable, and that is, they need the mass appeal to survive, or at least make more money, because they need the advertising dollars. Specific trade magazines are excluded, but culture mags always starting out thatway, then they realize they need to expand. Twice a year, we are audited by an independant agency, called the ABC Audit Board. This is a standard audit insitituion that evaluates a magazines circulation. Advertisers do not want to hear from you unless, you have these numbers in front of them. The more numbers, the more advertising. We put out two "double" issues a year. Usually our biggest celeb cover. It's on-sale for a month as opposed to the usual 2 weeks. We increase all of the distributors and retailers draw by 30-50%. Twice a year, when the ABC audit comes around, guess which sales info we supply them with? ALso, they try to appeal to the "excruciatingly hip" because we all like to feel special, we like to think we are one step ahead of the rest, by making us feel we are getting the inside word. But at the same time, they almost need the mass appeal to pay the bills, at least for alot of start ups anyway. This is very simple, and this approach does sell copies. Publishers and editors are usually wanting to stay as close to the orginal concept as possible, at least editorially. However the owners of the company just see dollars, they don't care, they usually don't give a rats ass about the magazines' integrity, they just want to sell copies and often don't give a shit how they do it. To your last question, indeed, but at the same time, they have to appeal to the large audience. What you are sensing is a facade. Bob Guccione's (spell?) Gear mag is great example. When we got the first copy here in the office a year ago, it was the shit. It had an interview with Andy Dick as I recall, whom I had just dicsovered on News Radio and Howard and it also had an interview and some great pics of that hottie red head that used to be on Melrose Place.....anyway, i was jazzed, it seemed different, the features were good, the pictures were good, the articles interesting and slightly different. I subscribed and shortly thereafter, the quality went to shit. To the point where i dreaded each issue, finally my subscript has run out and it's outta my life.

yeah. my roommate's boyfriend confirmed that vitamin e = x. hahaha. I am so naive; my first thought was that we were all going to sit around making our skin glow. doctors' appointments are so interesting. I hardly ever go there, and I love for people to pay attention to me. I told her she should check out my lymph nodes. I tried to think of a lot of questions to ask her, of any pains I might have had over the last year. I always want to be a star patient. I knew the dates of my last tetanus, I knew how much I weighed. should 120/70 earn me a gold star on my chart? actually, I no longer have a chart. it's all in the computer now. I remembered something markus said on the boards once, about how glad he was to have gotten a hep b immunization, so I got the first part of that today. I told her I didn't think a cholesterol check was necessary. she agreed. I remembered that my last tetanus was in 1996. I asked her if orthonovum causes weight gain. she told me my breast tissue was very firm. but she never stuck her finger up my ass. can't wait for another year to go by so I can do this again!

the other magazine i was talking about it called The Sun. published in chapel hill. most men can be controlled or maniuplated with sex and/or sex appeal. but that does not equal male oppression. that's not even the same discussion at all.

oh yeah, and I love being really stoic about injections. when I was little, I used to live in fear of doctors' visits because I thought they might want to stick needles in me. I remember one time my mother had to force me into the car. she literally had to pry me off the fucking fender. this lasted into my teenage years. I remember being in like junior high or high school and having a big tearful scene with my mother at the clinic because I refused to have a tetanus shot. today the medical assistant was one of those grown-up little girls. she had big dangly earrings and started going through the whole pack of bandaids asking me which I liked best. I started off telling her that I really didn't care. because I really didn't. she insisted. "teddy bears? stars? oh look, here's hearts." "whatever. um, teddy bears." "oh, I could go out and find you a regular, plain circle one." "no, really, I want the teddy bears." "oh, good. the plain ones get so boring. I like teddy bears too! look at my shirt!" it had lots of teddy bears on it.

Oh God that sounds like my mother. (She's a bear freak)

I like stuffed things. The last stuffed thing I bought was a little red bear. I named him Tobin.

I hate hate hate stuffed animals.

The only time in my life I ever fainted was when I had my first blood test,he told me not to look but I did and after the vial was half-full,I went out.

"most men can be controlled or maniuplated with sex and/or sex appeal" this occurance and notion about men has to cease.

It,s always works for me,I,ve said this before...no matter how entertaining or smart I think I am,it all boils down to nookie.I,m sure it,s the same for all the women on the board.There have been some rare exceptions,but rare is the word here.Though I think Patrick could be a rare exception,the kind of man who thinks Pamala Anderson looks cheap.

but it's true. women should be forced to wear certain clothes so as not to oppress the men about them. men have no control over their hormonal functions. women have control over how they appear. our rights are being infringed upon.

Garters and stockings-------and a pair of come-fuck-me-pumps.

Pam Anderson does look cheap and she is totally unattractive in my eyes. I equate the above mentioned mentality to the notion that when a women is upset she is "...just being emotional..." or when a woman is genuinely angry, she "..is being a bitch...". It is belittling.

ah, but based in a fundemental difference between the genders.

Patrick--I agree with you, actually--I think W is one of the better of the fashion magazines. I was simply speculating. Or something. Anyway. The last time I got a Hep B injection, it hurt. I think it was the last part that left me sore and aching for days. Now I'm afraid to go anywhere near a needle. I used to be fine about it.

my wife thinks so too, that and WWD, Women's Wear Daily, and Mens Wear Daily, which are divisions of W, I think.......these are invaluable trade mags that she heavily relys on.

I wonder if anyone ever chekecked out the Bizarre magazine I recomended and if Czarina sent that card?

i know it, seen it, it's interesting at times

Is it that Brit magazine, full of weird kinky happenings? I think the latest issue has a nude woman lying on a bed of fruit, with a plastic scorpion on her navel and whipped cream covering her breasts, with cherries representing the nipples. While I think there is a certain amount of truth to the idea Men are easily manipulated by sex appeal", I also think that it is possible to learn to tune out those signals and see behind to the real meaning. Otherwise, all spies would be female, and Bond wouldn't have survived his first lay.

yeah it's British. I suppose i don't like the idea engraved in young girls minds that they can manipulate men with sex. Men need to recognize this, and stand firm against that kind of bullshit. If women can use sex as a commodity, so can men.

they can. and they do. but here's the thing. we shouldn't have to use sex and sex appeal to get what we want. i agree that's fucked. we should just be able to be smart and logical and kind and hard-working humans to reach our goals. unfortunately that's rarely how it works for ethnic minorities and women. and i can explain to you yet again why it is that it doesn't work that way in our fucked up society, but we've already debated that one up and down and sideways. btw, i have yet to meet one single man who could not be manipulated by sex or sex appeal. i'm not saying that all men can be manipulated that way, only that i personally have never met a (hetero) man who put my logical discussions and forthright efforts first and my 36D's second.

well of course all men can be manipulated, and nate tapped on that by saying "men have no control over their hormonal functions. women have control over how they appear." I admit to being manipulated by sexuality. My wife does it all the time, but it's consensual and there is never a loss of respect or an ulterior motive. When I walk into a strip bar, I am consenting to being manipulated by sexuality. There is nothing wrong with that, no one can say they were misled in that kind of environment. However, tits on magazine covers, ass strown over corvettes, dumb blondes selling shit beer and the overall mentality that girls are impressioned with that they can get what they want from men by showing ass and clevage is wrong, i don't care about other inequalitities that may exist. One wrong doesn't make another right. But essentially i think we agree on this, so happy friday!

I think that bringing people up to believe that they can maiulate/be manipulated by sexuality is the real issue at hand. If people stopped perpetuating this belief, it might not be such a problem. But maybe I am alone in this thought? Granted, it would take several generations, but...

"i personally have never met a (hetero) man who put my logical discussions and forthright efforts first and my 36D's second." Do you really mean that, Sarah? Becuz I find that incredulous. Even in Hawaii. Are you saying that every time a man interviewed you for a job & you were hired/it was becuz of yr tits & not yr talent as a writer? Or do you make such a regular point of flaunting yr assets that most men take the hint & figure why shd they take yr "logical discussions and forthright efforts" any more seriously than you do? Ever hear of Rosenthal's Expectancy Effect? Maybe you shd try getting to the mainland more often...

you are extrapolating false assumptions from my statements. i *never* use sex or sex appeal for means of getting a job, or for any professional reasons at all. i dress very conservatively at work and for interviews. i don't flaunt. i dress fairly conservatively almost all the time. but i also dress for the weather here, so when it's hot, i wear as little as possible. but that's not a sex appeal thing, that's a comfort thing. sex appeal is only relevant when i'm with a romantic interest. i don't hit on my male friends. i don't *use* sex for anything other than pleasing myself or my partner when we're in bed. so to speak. but my dress code and actions do not dictate whether or not men are manipulated by sex appeal. that fact stands alone.

as a footnote to this, people should check out the latest issue of Discover, ithe the Science of Beauty on the cover. the article discusses an experiment, where participants were shown a set of sixteen caucausian women's faces in pairs, and told to pick the most attractive. The results were averaged, and what seems to be the case is that humans have a built-in preference for certain markers of "feminity" (Full mouth, big eyes, arched eyebrows, small chin and nose). The composite face the guy came up with from his averaging is, of course, a non-existant woman, but nevertheless, makes any five supermodels you could pick out of a hat seem plain (It's worth picking up this issue just to see that picture). Interestingly, the smae deal was done with guys faces, and the result was much different. it was found that the more "Masculine" features a face had, the less attractive it was rated. In fact, the averaged-out, composite male face (unfortunately, no picture) was deemed to be "threatening". The article also mentions the experiments where pictures of "attractive" and "unattractive" people ( by social standards) were shown to babies, and the babies would have a preference for the attractive photos. Also, in teh same issue, there's a very good article on the mass extinctions going on right now in Hawaii and how it's probably a predictive model for the rest of the world. Pretty sad.

No -- I did not extrapolate or assume anything, Sarah. I merely took you at yr word. You said (basically) that you'd never met a guy who put yr opinions & ideas ahead of yr tits. All I did was ask if you really meant it. You certainly don't seem like a some bimbo who wd settle for that kind of treatment from men. If you didn't mean that the men you've known pay more attention to yr boobs than yr opinions or ideas/why did you say that?

i do mean that.

Then once again/I suggest you find a better class of men to hang out with. The men that I know care more abt my sense of humor/my intelligence & my friendship than they do abt my 38C's. With maybe 1 of them/there is a definite undercurrent of attraction btwn us. But he's got a woman/& I don't poach/so that's that. I can go out drinking w/them & not worry abt what's gonna happen to me if I have 1 too many. Becuz any one of those guys wd either drive me home/or put me in a cab. Not becuz they view me as a little sister or someone who needs to be taken care of. But becuz I've done the same for them when they were too drunk to drive. Maybe this is a function of age/but I'm really getting tired of women complaining -- or even generally remarking -- abt how men are always hitting on them/treating them like boy toys/ paying more attention to their boobs than their eyes/blah, blah, blah/ad nauseum. SOME men behave that way/yes. But in my experience/when a woman gets treated like that consistently /it's becuz *that's* the kind of treatment her demeanor & behavior warrant. Whether she cares to cop to it or not. Most men aren't stupid. And they aren't a walking sac of hormones either. But Nate & many of his gender will try to hide behind the old out-of-control-hormones excuse so that they don't have to take responsibility for their part in The Mating Dance. Everyone knows it takes 2 to tango -- i.e. if you spend the evening up in the face of the woman showing showing the most cleavage in the bar/then *you* obviously didn't have much on yr mind beyond sex. And she obviously didn't have much else on her mind either. But nobody forces a guy to leave his face in someone's boobs all nite -- you/as a man/made the choice to opt for the most obvious lay in the place. Sarah, you made an extremely broad generalization abt men before. Maybe that really is what yr experience has been. But it is not a 'given' that a man has to react to you that way. Or any other woman/for that matter. You've got a lot more on the ball than tits & ass. It just seems to be you wd want to spend yr time around men who appreciate you for those other factors. But hey -- that's just me, y'know?

Sexuality/eroticism is a fact of life,otherwise some of us wouldn't be here.And I firmly believe that in some instances,there is some type of chemical "reaction" between 2 people.That inexplicable sense of "knowing" that certain person has entered the room, without seeing or hearing them, your body is "aware" they are near. I, like Sarah,don't dress provocativly,yet seem to be the person men flock to in a social setting,this makes me uncomfortable,and makes me have to try "harder" to counteract this,so I do several things to make everyone,including myself, more comfortable, one, I promptly try to indicate my intelligence, two, I try to put the other women at ease by showing that I don't have any interest in "their" men, I am pretty much of a friendly person, and usually this can all be resolved in a rather short amount of time, but the whole scenario makes me very uncomfortable.Once people get to know me they realize that I'm "okay" and merely mischevious and fun loving.On the other hand, I don't play down my sexuality,[although I have been know to bring Halloween supplies, and maybe black out a tooth, or put a big putty wart on my nose, just to see reactions]. So, to a certain degree, I think men and women can be manipulated sexually,[we're only human], I feel there is a time and place for this type of behavior.{And admittedly, I have been known to drive miles out of my way,to go through a construction zone where I know there are some hunky guys glistening in the sun as they work.} [But I at least wear sun glasses so they don't know I'm ogling them]

see how women's lib has screwed everything up? you think you can just turn it off and on whenever it suits you and the rest of us are supposed to know exactly when you're in slutmode and when you're in brainmode (because it can change from moment to moment) and respond accordingly. it just doesn't work that way.

No one said " you can turn it on and off whenever it suits you". The point being that sexuality is a reality. As women, we have to try harder to be appreciated for our MANY other attributes.We're not just sex machines, we have goals and concerns and interests in things that aren't sexualy oriented.When ever you see a male being pursued, [in a movie or TV type setting], and he's being pursued by an oversexed woman/boss type character, he's absolutly miserable. Well, thats how we feel when we try to present ourselves as intelligent, knowledgable people, and have MR.Hardpants glaring at our chests,or other parts of our anatomy,that SHOULD be of NO concern to him.

well, you should be happy that people find you attractive. too many people don't get to experience that.

we all think you're very pretty, Dave. I've never used sex or sex appeal to get anything from a boy. It's been used on me, though, and I have never never minded it.

that guy David from new york was by far the coolest (literally, i've never met someone so fucking cool) and the most beautiful and sexy man that's ever been attracted to me. but at the time i didn't care if he appreciated me for my brains at all. didn't even cross my mind. i knew the score on that one immediately... the sex appeal thing was definitely there between us right from the start. that thing Czarina was talking about. if i thought there was a chance that something more would happen with him... and i actually hoped it would even as foolish as that is... then i would have cared a great deal that we connected intellectually and spiritually. i don't find myself turning the sex thing on or off. it's mostly off actually, unless i meet someone who sparks my interest romantically. but again, it's not a matter of *using* my sexuality. it's just the energy between two people that brings out that mutual attraction. i actually flirt way more with women. really. otherwise it's just stupid and contrived. i would never walk around trying to act all sexy. i'd have to laugh at myself in the face if i did. that's just silly.

LOL at what Gee said to Dave!] But then again/didn't Agatha describe you as "patently incapable of picking up a woman"? So the Fair Sex has nothing to fear from Dave. :) But hey -- don't go giving us that Feminist Backlash b.s! Not when you live & share a child w/a Feminist. [BTW/if you wdn't mind/I'd love to hear the story of how you 2 met & hooked up.] Even back in yr grandma's day/women were bitching abt "mashers' & 'cads'. So the signals NOT to treat us like meat have always been there. I think it wd truly shock most men if you guys wd spend a little time Behaving Like Gentlemen. Don't flirt. Don't touch her hand or stare at her boobs or make suggestive remarks. Just be friendly w/out being suggestive -- & keep it up! Ask her out for diner & a movie. Be yr usual zany, outrageously funny selves during conversation. (And this place had an adundance of really funny men. Are you guys like that in person/or is it something you save for this palce?) Walk her to her door/tell her you had a lot of fun & you'll call her tomorrow. Then walk away. Not even a peck on the cheek. And be sure & call tomorrow! After a few weeks of that/she'll be so comfortable around you/so confident that you are not only a Nice Guy/but an entertaining/well-mannered/trustworthy guy who spends time w/her w/out expecting to end up in bed. And she'll be eating out of yr hand before you know it. Sure/sometimes lightning strikes when 2 people meet & after a few hours ot talking/they just wanna go off alone & fuck like jackrabbits. But there's a reason most relationships that start off at burning full blast end up fizzling out -- or exploding. Becuz sex can only exhance intimacy -- it can't create intimacy. And intimacy is the foundation for lasting relationships -- or any kind. Only spending time together/talking & listening & doing lots of nothing w/all yr clothes on can give you the chance to hold another person's mind in yr hands & turn it over & over until you understand how it works. That way/you avoid l lot of miscimmunications & misunderstandings. Becuz you You *know* what they mean when they say a certain thing or behave in a certain way. (Not that this pertains particularly to Sarah & David. Hee was only there on holiday/so time wasn't in their favor.) All I'm saying is/if men wd treat a woman like a valuable person 1st -- the way you treat yr sister or yr cousin or anyone else you care for but wdn't dare have a sexual thought abt -- & continue treating her as such over time/then women wd come to know that we are worth something to you beyond what we have to offer in bed. Becuz you took the time to learn who we are & what makes us special. As people. And it's very hard to resist someone who thinks you're All That & let's you know it from his behavior. Even the Seriously Shy Girls don't mind making the 1st move on a guy like that!

i dunno. it's a nice idea but i don't think it works that way in the real world. i don't know what agatha's talking about. i'm pretty strong. i could probably pick up several women.

Yeah, what R.C. said. Re: Winona Ryder -- we know the guy who was in control of the auction of Allan Ginsberg's estate after he died. Winona Ryder was there to read one of his poems ("Sunflower Sutra") before the auction started. The guy we know said she was extremely nervous before the show and was also very polite and shy. So there's some counterevidence. Re: Semillama and his Spin magazine -- let the subscription run out and get Alternative Press instead. It's better. Re: women and the boob thing -- please don't lose respect for me because of this, but a while ago I...watched....an MTV Road Rules/Real World cross-over special thingy, and it was the episode where the gang is rewarded for all their efforts with a trip to the Playboy mansion. They start talking to one of the Playmates, who promptly reveals herself to possess the intelligence of a lump of sod and talks about getting a "prescription" to her magazine. And you know that girl was doing the only job on the planet that she was qualified for. And you also got a sense, looking at the girls' surroundings, that they are probably more miserable than they realize when they do nothing but lounge around and look good. That has to be incredibly boring, and if I were in their shoes I would feel like my life had no meaning and was empty and worthless and I should just end it all right now. But I'm prone to thinking that anyway. Point being: people talk about many things. They talk about the prevalence of sex and sexual imagery in our society as being a good thing, as treating sex like any other biological urge, as bringing things out from behind the repressive closed doors. But sex is not treated like every other urge: you don't see tributes to the urge to sleep or to feel nice and warm plastered everywhere. Sex hasn't been behind closed doors for many many years. Even in the Victorian era, people were having "illicit" sex quite "publicly" (I read somewhere that in the 1880s, three out of every four brides in Scotland were already pregnant, and that there were a record number of prostitutes in London in that decade, many of whom (by their own admissions) chose that life because they felt it suited them...not because they were forced into it or they needed the money. Now if only I could find my source...). All the prudery was a social facade. Thirdly, this misuse of the word "repression" must stop -- you cannot consciously repress any urge or thought, and merely not talking about something is not repression...people need to re-read their psych textbooks. Fourthly, of course I have opinions about everything I just said, but I don't feel like going into them right now. I think I'll go bake some cookies.

some guy hit on me really nicely last night. he was a young native american man, and he asked me if I had any indian blood. "the high cheekbones," he said. "no," I said. "do you?" "no," he said. "really?" "no," he said. we laughed. he said he was 100% chippewa, from central montana, near glacier. we were standing by the pool tables, and he asked if I played. "no, I just drink." he was just very polite, and he didn't try to chat with me for too long. after he was done playing he came over and said good-bye. guys don't have to be pushy about hitting on girls in portland. if you see someone at a bar, chances are, you'll see them again and you can pick up where you left off. he just seemed really nice. that's all. then a pal's drunk sister talked to me non-stop for an hour. I thought about sorabji.com, thought how I'm really not like cyst. in real life, I can listen and listen and listen without talking. she was a very sweet girl, and she was feeling abandoned by her cool boyfriend, who travels around the world fixing people's garages and hopping freight trains. she told me how much she loves the guitar and jude law, and wants to get a job waiting tables or something in amsterdam.

rc, i think sarah's point is that she doesn't allow men to treat her any particular way, but that her physical appearance is always in the back of the mind of every man she interacts with, regardless of how she interacts with him. we can't control how men construe us with how we dress, speak, behave. they think what they think. if i am wrong, please correct me. i dress like a boy and i still can tell that men size me up sexually every day. it's just that way.

I'm not sure what 'dressing like a boy' means these days. If it's baggy jeans & t shirts/then I guess I dress like a boy too. But i get what *you* mean. I just found it hard to swallow that Sarah thinks *every* man she meets is more interested in her boobs than anything lese. I'm sure some of the men she meets don't think twice abt her -- physically or otherwise -- not becuz she's not fine or whatever/but simply becuz they've got other things on their minds.

"then a pal's drunk sister talked to me non-stop for an hour. I thought about sorabji.com, thought how I'm really not like cyst. in real life, I can listen and listen and listen without talking." -Cyst Cyst, the next time I'm out in Portland, if we meet, I predict that at least part of the time will be spent in total silence, as i am the same way. Rhi: I am letting the Spin subscription run out. Durst-coddling is an unpardonable sin. Although Genius lessons has gotten really good lately. As far as my sense of humor, it kind of translates from here into the real face to face world as so: I am not the talkative sort, I prefer to listen and figure out what's up with everyone. What happens is that someone will make some remark or another, and I slip in some one-liner that cracks everyone up. Or I don't. They just slip out when they're there.

it's beginning to look like a sorabji-fest would be a much quieter affair than first imagined

not if i had anything to do with it.

Agatha...can you tap dance? THESE LITTLE TOWN BLUES.......

Quiet . . . until a fingerlength down the first bottle. Quiet . . . until the first bowl makes it halfway round the circle. Quiet . . . until swine tells someone to stick glass in their butts.

so basically you're saying it won't stay quiet for very long at all?

uh-huh.

So I guess I'd be the one in the corner with the clear head, making sure that the place doesn't burn down while everyone's too dazed to care. As usual.

Ahh, no Spider, you wouldn't be alone in that. I myself do not partake of inhibition-inhibiting substances with strangers. I am a control freak. I will sit and talk cute classics professors with you when everyone else has transcended to another plane. We can check the stove together to make sure noone has bumped a dial, allowing gas or flame to escape. We can police the proper disposal of smoking materials (of all sorts). We can steal everyone's car keys.

You also had a cute classics professor? Aren't they the greatest? We can get everyone's wallet, too. Hee hee!

Because I'd had homeric greek in high school, when I got to college they assigned me to the Chair of the Classics department for advisement. He tried methodically to recruit me, but gave up when I declared my major at the end of my sophomore year. I babysat for him (he had 3 precocious daughters, all beautiful and brilliant and exotically named -- except they actually CHOSE to watch the Golden Girls...what could that have been all about?). He had a charming gap between his two front teeth. He looked like David Letterman and Michelangelo's David's love child (facially). His eyes were the blue of the sparks from static electricity. When he was in college in the 70s he was in a band called Tommy and the Rockets. His last name was Faulkner. He was happily married. I had such situational lust for him...not erotic in content, he just fit my dreams of the perfect man...which changed several times over subsequent years. But he was the IT guy for a while.

Ah, mine had blue eyes, as well. Big wide blue eyes that pinned you to your chair. I was afraid to go see him alone in his office for conferences because I didn't like being the only object of his attention. He was too intense. But he remains the most refined man I've ever met. Very charming, and he had a wicked sense of humor. I'm a sucker for wicked senses of humor.

swine is not quiet. he's quite loquacious, actually. i'm not sure i spelled that right.

where is swine?

oklaholma.

non-sequitor

i'm not in oklahoma. and i'm not excessively talkative. i think you're projecting, agatha.

liar. anyhow, i didn't call you excessively talkative, i called you loquacious, which i thought had a more positive meaning than it actually does. what i meant was that you're a good conversationalist, but i guess that word means overly gabby. oh, shutup.

close. Alabama, PA.