Before we define what heaven is, we have to know in what context we ask the question. Is it the heaven that we go to when we die if we were "good"? Is it the heaven that we experience when we lose connection to temporal, earthly things as when we are lost in sex, music, or art, and ultimately when we lose our final connection to the earth at death? Or is it just the heaven that we experience when we eat a really good jelly donut? I think that heaven exists for different people as a state of mind. Therefore it is a unique experience that is based on how one chooses to live and think and believe. The bigger question is whether or not there is a common heaven that exists that can be shared by all. If there is then we all need to know what channel to tune in on to find it. I don't think we can find it on earth while we live either no matter how much we choose to identify heaven with simple hedonistic pleasures. Heaven is big and important and not to be fooled with. I think that how we live will determine how we die, and then what if anything we will find after that. I know what religions say about heaven, ranging from the nothing of the Buddhists to the everything of the Christians. I don't know if I would look forward to either. How about you?

Either way, in the event of HEAVEN being a purly "place you go when you die," I think I can wait. But I'm pretty sure the ideal that heaven existing on earth in many forms is quite acurate. Simple things amuse people, things even more simple make them happy. That is heaven.

I think heaven was something concocted by ancient people as a comforting thought; a way of not fearing death. Death is the only certainty in life--its an inevitable end. Believing that your soul will be transported to a wonderful place when you die gets rid of the fear associated with dying. Ancient philosophers thought the stars were "the heavens", but modern science proved that these were simple enormous balls of burning gas. How much easier is it to think of death as the beginning of infinite happiness in heaven, rather than just the end of your existence. I believe heaven was also created as a useful concept to believe in and teach to others because it also functions as a motivator to do 'good' while you're alive. It is often believed that doing good, (aka. not sinning)will result in eternal life in heaven, while doing 'bad' will result in your soul being punished in hell. Doesn't this sound like a great way to get people to live virtuously? In this way, I think the notion of heaven was crafted to teach entire civilizations that if they live virtuously, they will be rewarded. ...Otherwise, what's the point of doing good?... It all ends in self-satisfaction--you do good to others in order to better your own situation in the long-run. It makes me wonder, are there ANY selfless acts at all?

goddamnit that pisses me off.

Um i think i agree with what you say but then again you obviously get a choice of whether you want to live with heaven as your main motivation, or with life as the goal. I actually think people aren't always selfish, only i get into a lot of trouble intellectually for that, since i cant really back it up at all. its just a feeling. but anyways, yah, if you want sheep to be good, heaven is a good motivater. I dunno. I dont really care if there is a heaven... i mean, i guess i'll find out but its not something that affects my life just now. Mostly i just wonder about what heaven is in terms of understanding other people's motivations, but i dont know if i can understand anything if i dont believe in it.

hehehe, nat. that's funny!

Y'all are wrong.

oh? and you know this how?

because spider talks to the voices in her head. she's right, though. her first pope talked to the son of god. the son of god told him that whatever decrees the church makes, heaven will hold true. so, this handful of men over the years have described the geography of heaven. and as god promised, these descriptions are now true.

ah, now i see the light. Alleluia!

"the son of god told him that whatever decrees the church makes, heaven will hold true." Cite please?

fuck off spider. it was in the movie 'dogma'. last night i was reading about this dude who was sent to this place to hook up some money for his dad. he finds this angel on his way there, who tells him a close relative of his lives in a town they'd pass through. because of how close a relative she is, she is rightly his wife for the taking. he's wary, of course, because she's already been married seven times and each time the new husband has been killed before he could get down and dirty. suspect a demon! so when a fish tries to eat this dude's foot while he's drinking from the tigris, the angel says "catch that fucking fish! save it's heart and liver!" this, because on the night of the wedding, before he fucks his new wife, he can burn the heart and liver of the fish to exorcise the demon. which he does. and the demon flees to buttfuck egypt, where the angel materializes and ties it hand and foot. kickass.

what's more, the chick's father is Raguel, which means "Pasta sauce of the Lord" or "The Lord has sauced" i think.

yum, my favorite pasta sauce. i put it on my food sacrifices.

Ragu has to be one of the worst store bough sauces. i've really gotten into making my own. Tomatos are surprisingly expensive for every day types of veggies.

"I'd sware there aint no heaven. And, I pray there aint no hell". Blood Sweat and Tears.

Heaven is simply a concept for weaklings, who don't have the balls to take responsibility for their own actions.

Really? They're cheap here right now. I just can't make edible tomato sauce, so I don't buy them. I don't know what I'm going wrong, I've just decided to give up.

here...i'll give you an easy recipe for making a basic marinara you can toss with a pasta of your choice and have a good meal for two. 4 tomatos chopped 1 6-8oz can of tomato sauce (blend in blender to get your desired consistancy) then add... a few table spoons of basil salt pepper crushed dried red pepper however many cloves of garlic you'd like, if any i like to dice some onions or peppers if i have them. if you dont have any onions, try to use some onion powder. The quantity of garlic, onions, peppers are really up to you. I like my sauce "zesty" so i tend to go heavy on these. simmer for at least an hour.....toss with pasta. easy i figured it out on my own, no reason you cant either. and maybe they arent expensive...but in my mind, nearly $3 for 4 tomatos seems expensive, say compared to onions or red or green peppers.I never really bought fresh tomatos until recently.

DUDE. Where is the sugar in your sauce? YOU MUST PUT SUGAR IN TOMATO SAUCE. It is imperative. Otherwise the sauce is too acidic. Not a lot...a teaspoon or so, depending on how much sauce you've made. I'm serious about this. Try it and see. Though....*ahem*....I see you put red pepper in yours. How about you leave out the red pepper one night and put the sugar in instead? Also, some red wine, parsley, and oregano never hurt anyone. Or mushrooms, neither. MMmmmmm...mushrooms.

i dont eat fungi and i've never bought into the sugar in everything, idea, but you know, i didnt put it in because i just didnt think about it. but sure i'll throw some in and see what happens. i do put parsley and oregano if i have them i just forgot to say that. most of my cooking is so off the cuff, i have to really sit down and recall everything i do. Most recipes are not the same thing twice. Its all based on what i have at hand. i'm in love with red pepper, especially the dried spicy kind. i like my pasta saucy spicy, like a cacciatore sauce. ive never made a wine sauce version but that sounds like a fine idea.

I cook the same way...I just throw things together and hope for the best. That's why I can't tell you exactly how much sugar to use...it's best to start with a pinch and add more as necessary. Wine adds a very subtle flavor to sauce. I use a burgundy wine.

i like it better without sugar. but then i like the acidic tomato taste.

Patrick, that's exactly how I make it and it still turns out tasting like cock. I don't even like tomato sauce, anyway.

taste like cock? im failing to see the problem.

MMM...cock sauce.

sugar is an acid. just ask any band teacher. i never put sugar in marinara. fresh veggies and mushrooms, herbs and maybe cider vinegar. if you want to have something sweet, use a raspberry or honey-mustard vinaigrette for your salad. i usually base it on a jar, or maybe a mixture of canned tomato sauce and paste. something else that's good to try is using pesto and olive oil to dress your meal.

Oh, the blasphemy! Oh! I must go swoon now...

you're talking about the gravy, right spider? i think this is a place we would agree.

Yes. OH! "Gravy"?? Repent, sinner! It's "sauce." NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE.

And let me clarify: Sugar does not make the sauce sweet. You should not be able to taste the sugar. It's just like adding a pinch of salt to cookie dough or a tsp. of vanilla to chocolate cake batter. It's necessary for the balance of flavor. Sugar may be an acid chemically, but it cuts out the acid flavor of unsugared tomato sauce. I'm serious, people. Try it some time and taste for yourselves.

They must use a hell of a lot of sugar in Prego sauce then, because it's really sweet.

i don't think sugar is an acid. my first reaction is that pez was making a reference to the practice of putting lsd (acid) on sugar cubes. though i can't imagine how pez and her band teachers would know this.

sorry, spidey. i was raised in the mafia.

That explains a lot.

no because if you have a lot of sugar in your maouth and then go and play a woodwind it will gradually work its way at the pads. and sugar stings you if you have a cut in your mouth. i am not referring to lsd. i am writing letters.