| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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Who cares, on both sides. You don't like it? Don't look at it. As far as the rest of you go, It's a pile of granite. Read the bible and it will tell you that there are to be no engraven images. Including images of Him. You are making this monument out to be an idol. Judge Moore, you are to uphold the law, and you were ordered to remove it. We understand your feelings, but it went through the entire legal process. There were appeals and all. Yes, the ruling was bs since the 10 commandments are in the Federal Supreme Court building and "lady justice" is a greek goddess, but is that really a suprise coming from this group of justices? Don't make matters worse by breaking the law. |
That isn't the point. |
It's probably true that the 10 commandments were in the mind of the founding fathers when they drafted our first laws, but the laws should stand on their own since the US intends to keep church and state separate. There's no reason (or necessity) to display the 10 commandments on courthouse property. |
THAT is the POINT. The dollar bill has a pyramid on it. That is concidered by some an accultist symbol. Lady Justice is a Greek Goddess. On the Rotunda of several state capitols, Michealangelo stretches his finger to touch God. In the Official Federal Federal Crest, the Eagle is clutching an olive branch. This was a symbol of peace first used when a dove carried to it Noah on the Ark as a sign the flood was over. The medical symbol of a snake twisting around a staff is a symbol of Moses. We would have to re-do the decleration of independence. What was the "point"? to remove a judao-christian symbol? The 10 commandments are exactly why we have laws. The laws of this land are based on the 10 commandments. I could not think of a more appropriate item to be in a court house. Each law is a moral law. Laws are moral. |
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Lady Justice as a Greek goddess...which goddess is that again? None that I know. Our system of government is based in part on the ancient Greek system, and if we use Greek sculpture and architecture in our govt buildings, it's as a tribute to our roots. The Greek pantheon as objects of worship doesn't enter into it. The caduceus (snake entwined around rod) is another Greek symbol -- it has nothing to do with the Aaron's staff. The olive branch is divorced from its religious connections in a way that the 10 commandments are not. Can anyone look at the 10 commandments and *not* think of the Bible, Moses, religion, etc? An olive branch, on the other hand, even in the mouth of a dove, is often used in a secular context to represent peace. An olive branch does not have the same force as a religious symbol as the two tablets, or a cross, have. |
If they don't like it, they shouldn't look at it... |
why you gotta go and talk out your ass yet again? "We would have to re-do a lot of national symbols to rid ourselves of any religious references. THAT is the POINT." Like spider said, you don't understand a lot of the 'national symbols' you allude too. Without doing my research, Id step out on a limb to say there's more Masonic symbolism in our currency and government scripture than christian. Just because the word "God" is used, doesnt mean its "Christian". Further, shying away from one case "because you'd have to re-do" so many others isnt really a good reason. In fact, its pretty slack ass. Imagine if that edict were applied to civil liberties, or suffarage. Jesus Mary and Joesph, its downright lazy! |
"Further, shying away from one case "because you'd have to re-do" so many others isnt really a good reason. In fact, its pretty slack ass. Imagine if that edict were applied to civil liberties, or suffarage." The point, hot headed one, is that our government, our country was born with religion ingrained. Are you saying we need to go back and re-do it all from the foundation up? And now what we see is not a an attempt to remove RELIGIOUS references, but rather to remove CHRISTIAN references. There are references in almost every state constitution, in the US Constitution, the pre-amble, the decleration of indepence, etc. Our founding father's recognized that all this, this land, it's freedoms, the oppertunities YOU have, are not handed out by governments, but rather by nature, or a supreme being, and that man is not the end all be all of everything, and we had better make damn sure we do not inflate ourselves above that supreme being, that cosmic force that brings all of this together. Because if we do that, then we loose humanity ourselves. And paying tribute to a document from which the laws of this land is derived from is not declaring any state religion, but rather an acknowledgemnt of this country's history, and admission that the US Government is not above the law of man, but is a servant of the law of nature, or "God". And if that offends you, you need to re-examine your self importance. You (any person reading this) need to sit down for a minute an come to grips with your own mortality and importance in the universal spectrum. Because I think we have made way to much of our selves. We have decided our own, individual "wants" and "desires" far surpass even the life of a child. Our own pleasure from sex or drugs is more important then the impact to our new born babies, who are learning from us that the natural state is not good enough, that we must take something to make us feel good, that loyalty and dedication are nothing more then outmoded, outdated "concepts". We igonore the natural consequences of our actions and scream for the government to make the consequences go away. And we spit at truth becuase it offends. We hide from the very symbol of law and order and insist it be removed from the court of law that pronouces judgements based on that very symbol. |
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my grandpa is a masonite. "Freemasonry (or simply, Masonry) is a fraternal order whose basic tenets are brotherly love, relief (philanthropy), and truth." I want his ring. |
I think that every crime, every sin is founded in the attitude of "because I want it, I should have it." |
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Or in the case of tax evasion, "just because I don't want to, I shouldn't have to." |
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our own wants and desires surpass the life of a child? you agree with that? maybe im totally misinterpretating that. im assuming you drew that statement from the link posted with Masonic info. Coming from a Mason I would think it would say just the opposite. |
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the deal is sealed when they bless you at the end. |
really. it is fucking cool to envision such a symbolic undertaking of planning the city in such a manner. and you can't help but wonder if there isnt any ounce of truth in it all, or that the author has so reached another plane with his cannibis flying carpet as to study the map of DC create all that. |
One neat thing about the layout of DC is that you can tell how far you are from the Mall by the street names. The horizontal streets start out as letters in alphabetical order going north, then move to 1-syllable words in order, then 2-syllable, then 3-syllable. So if you ever get really lost on your way to the White House and find yourself on Beecher St., you have a general idea of how far away you are and in which direction you should head. |
Lady Justice NEPTUNE on the Rotunda! Look- there's Ceres Vulcan Mercury Minerva Notice, some of thinks are to KID's websites... |
Joseph Fort Newton, "The Great Light in Masonry," Little Masonic Library, Vol. 3, p. 177 |
Oh, and This is from the same site as that map |
Many Masons are Christians. Many Masons embody Christian philosophies. They also embrace pagans symbols and philosophies and some could even say satanic symbols and philosophies. This doesnt make them a Christian or religious organization. |
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Most christian groups? Back that up, please. You need to document that a majority of christian groups believe this. The reasons there are references to christianity in most government constitutions may be that there was a strong desire to make christianity the offical state religion. For all functional purposes, it pretty much is right now. Only the first amendment protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority when it comes to this stuff. Are you born-again, spunky? You certainly sound like it, or that you are going down that path. |
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It is not about christianity, per se, but RELIGION reflected in our federal government, and that the Federal Supreme Court ordering the Alabama State Supreme Court to take down the monument to the 10 commandments was hypocrasy. Sem, I was at one point born again, yes. I still struggle with some of the "negative" teachings, IE homosexuality is evil, things like that, but I still hold on to some values. A faithfull marriage which goes beyond just the bed, unborn babies are more important then selfish desires and wants, responsibility for one's own actions and decisions, man is placed in charge of the earth, but does not own it, that kind of thing. |
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A member of the Masons is a Mason not a Masonite. My father was a Mason. My grand father was a Mason and a Shriner. And, I am a Senior DeMolay. The Masons are not a religion. But, the main purpose of the Mason's is to reinforce our religious beliefs. This is done through ritual and service to the lodges and comunity. |
The founding fathers were Christian men and had lived in colonies controlled by Great Britain, where there is a state religion. They themselves used religious language in their official documents because these were their personal beliefs, but they were also aware of the bad side of having a state-mandated religion, so they didn't set one up when they created our government. (Though I heard a really interesting lecture in my church's class on the history of Catholicism in America....the lecturer was an Englishman living in the states, and he remarked that in the US, people fear that having a state-controlled religion will make the culture *more* religious, but in his experience in the UK, it actually makes people more apathetic and cynical about it. And it's true that religion is a much bigger deal over here than it is in the UK.) It may seem like a fine point, but there is a difference between saying "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." in the Declaration of Independence, and putting the 10 Commandments up on a courthouse. The context is different, the intent is different, and the effect is different. |
I corrected myself in a later post by using "Freemason". please don't notify the Scottish Rite. I hope this doesnt hurt my chances. I really really want my grandfather to give me his ring. Im the ideal canidate. Im going to see him this weekend and I intend to ask him about it. |
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Leave it at "i just don't know". I do have my values and opinions, though. |
No! Really? |
Masons are a GREAT topic of conversation. Let's forget this 10 commandments hoo-hah and talk Masonry! Anyone hear of the P2 conspiracy and the Roberto Calvi murder? |
I had no idea so many of you had masonic connections. This is neat. |
The two most common errors in this country are that our politicians are dumb and that they mean well. Exactly the opposite is true. -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs |
Not knowing much of it...i found this The Scottish Rite Creed The Cause of Human Progress is our cause, The enfranchisement of human thought our supreme wish, The freedom of human conscience our mission, and The guarantee of equal rights to all people everywhere, the end of our contention. I've always been generous when propositioned for a donation from either the Shriners or Scottish Rite, but the more I read....the more..... i dunno. Isnt there an evil side? |
Calvi had joined the P2 brotherhood, a secret society within the Grand Orient Lodge of Egytian Freemasonry, because he believed that P2 held the keys to economic and political power in Italy. Through his P2 connections, his close links with Archbishop Paul "The Gorilla" Marcinkus of the Vatican Bank, and his fertile imagination -- he created totally fictitious banks all over the world and used them to carry on illegal and clandestine activites -- Calvi became indeed very rich, but also attracted unwelcome attention from bank examiners. Through Liccio Gelli, founder of the P2 group, Calvi became involved with the Mafia, the CIA, the KGB and an assortment of criminal and terrorist organizations-- but because of his ties to the Vatican, he was caled "God's banker" and seemed immune to the hazards of his profession. Then the house of cards fell apart, Calvi found himself indicted for embezzlement, and under suspicion for numerous other crimes, and fled Italy. The day he hanged himself or was hanged in London, his secretary threw herself or was thrown from a window of Banco Ambrosiano in Milan. " From R.A. Wilson's field guide to conspiracy, "Everything is Under Control" his death was ruled a suicide. The details were that his pockets were full of bricks and he was hung where he would be covered by the rising tide (which apparently until recently, was a ritual threat against revealing secrets in masonic initiation rites). |
George Washington - i. 11/4/1752 Fredericksburg Lodge No. 4, Virginia James Monroe - i. 11/9/1775 Williamsburgh Lodge No. 6, Virginia Andrew Jackson - i. Harmony Lodge No. 1 Tennessee James Knox Polk - r. 9/4/1820 Columbia Lodge No. 31, Tennessee David R. Atchison - Ex-officio president: March 4, 1849 member: Platte Lodge No. 56, Mo. James Buchanan - r. 1/24/1817 Lodge No. 43, Pennsylvania Andrew Johnson - i. 1851, Greenville Lodge No. 119, Tennessee James A. Garfield - r. 11/22/1864, Columbus Lodge No. 20, Ohio William McKinley - r. 4/3/1865, Hiram Lodge No. 21, Virginia Theodore Roosevelt - r. 4/24/1901, Matinecock Lodge No. 806, Oyster Bay William Howard Taft - made a mason at sight 2/18/1909. affiliated Kilwinning Lodge 356, Ohio Warren G. Harding - r. 8/13/1920, Marion Lodge No. 70, Ohio Franklin Delano Roosevelt - r. Nov. 28. 1911 Harry S. Truman - i. 02/09/1909, Belton Lodge No. 450 r. 03/18/1909, Belton Lodge No. 450 Lyndon Baines Johnson - (EA) i. October 30, 1937 Gerald Ford - r. May 18, 1951, Columbia Lodge No. 3 |
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way to go genius. |
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. Sure, most laws were written exclusively by Christians, and some of our laws echo sentiments expressed on Moses' tablets. But those sentiments are hardly original or exclusive to Christianity. . In fact, the first three Commandments are reversed by law. They're specifically protected legal rights. . Only two of them are really covered well by law - but killing and stealing would have been outlawed regardless of our religious background. It's just good sense. |
It may vary from "valley" to "valley" What are the Qualifications? IF YOU WISH TO SEEK MASONIC MEMBERSHIP Masons do not solicit for members. If you are seeking Membership in Freemasonry YOU MUST ASK a Masonic friend to recommend you. You must be a man at least 18 years of age (in California, 21 in many jurisdictions) You must be of good moral character You must have a personal belief in a Supreme Being (the definition of a Supreme Being is up to you) You must be a Resident of this Jurisdiction (California) for at least 12 months. You must decide to become a Mason of "your own free will and accord" You will need to express your personal interest in joining the Fraternity. You must be loyal to your country. You must be dedicated to providing for your own family You must have a sincere determination to conduct yourself in a manner that will earn the respect and trust of others and possess a desire to help others through community service and universal benevolence. You must sign a Petition, stating your age, occupation and place of residence. There are NO religeous, political or racial restrictions for Masonic membership other than the aforementioned belief in a Supreme Being. Any disscusion of religion or politics is strictly forbidden in a Masonic Lodge. Members of the Lodge vote by secret ballot. To be accepted, the ballot must be unanimous. Follow these steps to become a Mason: Talk with someone you know who is a member of the Fraternity. If you do not know anyone who is a Mason, then you must contact a lodge in your neighborhood, introduce yourself and state your interest. Complete a petition for membership and return it to your local lodge with your degree fees. Three members of the Lodge will meet with you to interview you and to answer any questions you may have. You are encouraged to have your wife and family present during the interview. Your petition will be presented for secret ballot. If accepted, you will be notified to appear to receive the first of three Degrees of Masonry. |
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I just had this thought in my head: Jesus has one toe for each disciple. The Shroud of Turin was made from the webbing of his feet. I suppose Jesus is walking in my mind for me to think of his holey feet. |
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4 out of 5 Americans surveyed in a Gallop poll think it was wrong to remove them. but then again, over 50% of Americans think the Bill of Rights go too far. fucking sad. i blame the education system. people suck |
according to FirstAmendmentcenter.org "Based on your own feelings about the First Amendment, please tell us whether you agree or disagree with the following statement: The First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees" 1999 16% Strongly Agree 12% Strongly disagree 2000 10% Strongly Agree 12% Strongly Disagree 2001 29% Strongly Agree 10% Strongly Disagree 2002 41% Strongly Agree 8% Strongly Disagree 2003 19% Strongly Agree 15% Strongly Disagree Thats quite a jump after 9/11 46% respondants said the press has too much freedom 68% said the press did a good job covering the recent war with the embed program "The Government should be able to review in advance what journalists report directly from the military combat zones" 44% Strongly agree 23% Mildly Agree 30% Disagree 1/3rd of those surveyed said individuals should not be allowed to protest in public against an American war during the period of active combat. One in three said that public school officials should be able to prohibit high school students from expressing their opinions about the war on school property. There's a shit load more statistics from the recent poll http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/PDF/SOFA.2003.pdf its fairly dismal. |
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death." The following year, 1776, he wrote this: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." or: Thomas Jefferson "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also." George Washington, in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796: "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." John Adams "We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." First Supreme Court Justice, John Jay: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." Calvin Coolidge "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country." In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools." |
by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995 ( "The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity. This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY) George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX) John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814. Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." From: Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814. "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785. Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature." From: Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.) Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said: As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian. From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, |
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And didn't Spunkem post a site that basically said what Rowlf's post said? I am sure we had this conversation. |
more... No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our spiritual selves. What is surprising is when fundamentalist Christians think the Founding Fathers' faith had anything to do with the Bible. Without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God." In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity: Thomas Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short Jefferson again: "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." More Jefferson: "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill." John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" Also Adams: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." Here's Thomas Paine: "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." "Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)." "It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." "Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance." And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty." Finally let's hear from James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they - the Baptists - who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's." In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals. The price of Liberty is constant vigilance. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention. |
I'm not crazy Nate posted all the info and then Spunkem posted a site that repeated what Nate said |
http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm I think that you can't argue that we should go back to the founders intent and values on one thing and ignore the other intents and values they had as well, for example, limiting the vote to white male property owners. Many of the founding fathers were slave owners - does that mean that we should still be a nation that holds people in bondage and servitude. It worries me that some of the protestors I have seen on tv are incapable or unwilling to see the difference between the fight for women's rights and the civil rights movement and this issue in Arkansas (all the protestors who expose this I have seen have been white males, btw). It seems pretty obvious that the action of the court in removing the monument does nothing to hinder anybody's right to worship. it's not like it was the ONLY copy of the commandments. Religion needs to stay out of politics, and it definitely needs to stay out of the justice system. I now suspect Judge Moore's ability to be impartial in cases where the religion card is played ( and this might help explain why the West Memphis 3 were convicted on such shoddy evidence). |
"Passed on by Martha Ireland" Spunky, if ANY of my students did this on a paper, I would FLUNK them. |
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"Though Franklin was not a regular churchgoer by any means..." Oh. |
Kazu is right spunky. Primary sources beat hearsay everyday of the week. How do you know that the webpage with no sources is correct? |
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My points were simple: 1. Judge Moore was wrong. He is compelled to uphold the decision of the superior court, regardless of his opinion of that decision. That is how the system was designed, and that is how it works. 2. There is NO PLACE in the constitution that bars monuments of any type from being displayed in a government building. The first ammendment says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Read the words. Does a granite or marble representation of the ten commandments establish a religion? If you think it does, which one does it establish? Which one? Jewish? Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Full Gospel? Luthern? Church of the Ten Commandments? Did congress pass a law? Was a religion established? How was it established? Keep It Simple Stupid. The representation of the 10 comamndments would be no different then the representation of the bill of rights. No religion was established, therby no portion of the constitution was violated. No laws were passed in congress, no one has been compelled to join a state-sanctioned religion. |
My points were simple: 1. Judge Moore was wrong. He is compelled to uphold the decision of the superior court, regardless of his opinion of that decision. That is how the system was designed, and that is how it works. 2. There is NO PLACE in the constitution that bars monuments of any type from being displayed in a government building. The first ammendment says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Read the words. Does a granite or marble representation of the ten commandments establish a religion? If you think it does, which one does it establish? Which one? Jewish? Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Full Gospel? Luthern? Church of the Ten Commandments? Did congress pass a law? Was a religion established? How was it established? Keep It Simple Stupid. The representation of the 10 comamndments would be no different then the representation of the bill of rights. No religion was established, therby no portion of the constitution was violated. No laws were passed in congress, no one has been compelled to join a state-sanctioned religion. |
. You quoted it correctly but interpreted it incorrectly on that small point. . But no, the constitution doesn't prohibit the display of the ten commandments or whatever. . Did anybody argue that it did? . Just because it's not constitutionally illegal doesn't mean it isn't wrong for other reasons. I don't think it's illegal, but I think it's wrong, and in poor taste. |
If it's not illegal, then the US Supreme Court had to grounds to rule from. You run the danger of a Supreme Court making laws as they go along. What dismays me is the staggering number of justices that do not understand the constitution they swore to uphold. |
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. You might want to express your point in some fashion a little earlier. The only mention of the Constitution in this thread before today was to say that it's full of religious (christian) references. . Or figure out what your point is before you start arguing. . Just a suggestion, really. |
The representation of the 10 comamndments would be no different then the representation of the bill of rights. No religion was established, therby no portion of the constitution was violated. No laws were passed in congress, no one has been compelled to join a state-sanctioned religion" The judge fighting the decision mentioned on TV the other night that if there was a monument to the Koran right next to the Ten Commandments, he'd fight that, because its 'not part of American history'... |
i don't care what flavor. |
you think everyone should be sterilized. |
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Judge Moore bought the Monument with his own money. Not tax money. It should not have been there in the first place if it was not a federal or state commisioned exhibit. |
Why not? Aren't there portraits in national museums and buildings which are donated from people's collections? If I donated a portrait of George Washington that was part of my personal collection, wouldn't that be acceptable? |
If you remove emotion from it and look at the piece purely from a historical point of view, then it would be inaccurate to display the Koran. Currently, as a principle of the United States, absolutely the Koran, the Bible, the Book of Mormon (which has more historical impact then the Koran), each have a place in any religious display, which lends creadence to the idea that no religious display is appropriate, because there is no way to ensure every religion is represented correctly as the United States has no business "promoting" or supporting one religion over another. |
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If he wants to convince anyone that this is also part of the present, representing todays Christians, he should also stick up for other religions and encourage them to have their views reflected in government as well. But he wont do that, because its all about fighting for his specific religion to have dominance, not because he actually believes in a history that never existed. He'd prefer all the other religions shut up and assimilate and accept that since Christianity was supposedly what America was based upon, that it should always be that way. Never change. |
Anyway, the ten commandments, if you really look at them, really don't apply much to our system of government or the Constitution. There's a lot more info here on it. Basically, your first 3 or 4 commandments are religious in nature. The ones about stealing and killing, well, show me a culture that DOESN'T have those prohibitions. Honor thy mother and Father? where is that a law around here? Coveting? The whole basis of our economy is based on coveting the stuff our neighbors have that we don't, and a lot of our media entertainment is based on coveting the equivalent of our neighbor's wife. No laws against that. So all in all, it's a ridiculous argument. |
Alternate sets of ten commandments: We aware of two suggested replacements for the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments. These they should be more acceptable to persons of diverse faith groups. They are compatible with the multi-faith culture in North America. They promote religious freedom, religious tolerance, and an end to sexism and racism. Because of their lack of religious exclusivity, a school could post one of these sets without risking the division of the student body on religious grounds. They would not marginalize religious minorities, and would thus not add to the risk of school violence. Many of the individual commandments are derived from the Ethic of Reciprocity which is a part of almost all religions. This Ethic is expressed in Christianity as the Golden Rule. It should be constitutional to post versions of these Ten Commandments in public schools or government offices. However we are not legal experts, and in particular are not experts in constitutional law. Do not post them without obtaining a ruling from a reliable legal source. The Standard Ten Commandments: Believed to have been written by the Long Island Secular Humanists in 1999: "We, the members of the human community speak these words, saying. 1.We shall not limit freedom of thought. 2.We shall not cause unnecessary harm to any living thing or the environment. 3.We shall be respectful of the rights of others. 4.We shall be honest. 5.We shall be responsible for our actions. 6.We shall be fair in all matters to all persons. 7.We shall be considerate of the happiness and well being of others. 8.We shall be reasonable in our actions. 9.We shall nurture these values by word & deed in our children, family, friends and acquaintances. 10.We shall not limit inquiring or testing by their consequences, on any matter, including these Commandments." Ten Commandments for the Third Millennium: Written by a person who would prefer to remain anonymous. It is obviously a religiously inclusive restatement of the Biblical Ten Commandments which would be acceptable to followers of most religions and to secularists as well: "1.Respect and worship any deity within your faith tradition, if you follow one. Value and support the right of others to do the same. 2.Enjoy and support legal guarantees of freedom of religious belief, religious practice, assembly and speech for all. 3.Do not use obscene speech in the name of the deities of any religion. 4.Follow the guidance of your faith or secular tradition every day of the week, because every day is special. 5.Help to establish social safety nets so that the very young, the elderly, the sick, mentally ill, physically disabled, unemployed, poor and broken will receive adequate medical attention and enjoy at least a minimum standard of living. 6.Minimize the harm you do to others and yourself. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. 7.Do not engage in sexual activity with another person, which is coercive, unsafe, manipulative, public, or outside of a committed monogamous relationship. 8.Do not steal the property of others, except in case of emergency (and then only if attempt to replace or pay for it later). 9.Do not lie, either in or out of court. Be honest and truthful at all times. 10.Attempt to be satisfied with your current standard of living; do not obsess over the possessions of others; that path leads to personal unhappiness." Pretty much an improvement, i think, since the original ten pretty much prohibit all over religions, prohibits all forms of art, and endorses slavery. |
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It's actually the 11th commandment "Thou shall get your bitch ass in the kitchen and make my dinner" and the 12th "Thou shall have this house clean by the time I get home or else face the wicked edge of my strop, woman" that I believe sem is refering too. |
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there are so many more than 22. read leviticus. then call me on the phone and ask me my bidding. |
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stop being so binahal, tiggy. |
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