Conlon Nancarrow


sorabji.com: Obscure Classical Composers: Conlon Nancarrow
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).
By Sorabji on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 01:55 pm:
    Decidedly obscure, in my opinion. not simply because few people have heard of him, but because few people ever will. His compositions for player piano defy the traditional concert-hall circuit.

    Minnesota Public Radio has an interesting Nancarrow site, with RealAudio of some of Nancarrow's schtuff.




By Jicotea on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 03:34 pm:
    Nobody subject to half a page in the Arts section of the Sunday New York Times will ever be obscure again. Not of interest to me; I prefer music that lies within the capabilities of people; Nancarrow's mostly requires a machine.

    Now, you want obscure? Try Ray Green.
    Hehehehe

By Sorabji on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 04:46 pm:
    Ray Green? Didn't he do scores for modern dance in the 30s?

    Can't say that I remember ever actually hearing anything he wrote. I seem to remember him as being a fairly minor figure. I'm kind of surprised I remember him at all...

    Come to think of it I think my next door neighbor is named Ray Green. Maybe he is a composer.

By Jicotea on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 05:31 pm:
    Wow, _I'm_ impressed.
    Ver-y good, Eddie! That's the boy. He's married to the enchanting Mae O'Donnell (former Martha Graham stalwart), and lives deep in Loisada.
    Ray (b. 1908) has just completed a new piano concerto, just about the size of Busoni's, and relentlessly diatonic. It got a premiere last year in ... Shanghai.

    Am I cluttering up your site? Is this stuff of interest to anybody out there? Just tell me to go away if I'm bothering you!

By R.C. on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 06:17 pm:
    Quit? No Way! This is better than a gameshow! And I'm getting a free crash-course to boot.

By Jicotea on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 07:38 pm:
    R.C.: So far the only thing you're getting on this section of the BBS is a crash course in inferences and opinion-brandishing.

    Allow me to remind you that we are the guests of Sorabji.com, and perhaps we ought to do the equivalent of wiping our feet before entering. If I can figure out what that is.............


By Sorabji on Thursday, January 1, 1998 - 11:30 pm:
    Bothering me? I think not!

    How are we defining obscure, anyway? I guess I agree, Nancarrow is not obscure. I should really re-name this forum, to, simply to "Obscure Composers," since no one we've mentioned, with the possible exception of Zelenka, would ever be considered a "classical" composer.


By Jicotea on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 12:05 am:
    What are we going to call them? "Serious" composers? "Classical" is lame, but it's generally understood. If we say contemporary, we run the risk of forgetting how long some of these people have been dead...and anyhow, "contemporary" has been stolen by the young who flock to this site to denote a subdivision of pop noise.

    Stick with classical. Zelenka is a barocker anyhow, league of Pachelbel, not a heavy hitter. I'm interested that one poster thinks Bach is a demi-God, by the way. I'd deify him Roman style if I thought it made any difference. Toccata and Fugue in F, S. 540, is an example of sheer sonic excess which any rocker with ears should be able to get into. Or is that an oxymoron?

    I assume you like the note-heavy washes typical of Sorabji, Scriabin, and other still-romantic tonal innovators...have you tried Nik. Miaskovsky's Sonata No. 4 in C Minor? It's a real rouser, not at all like the doleful stuff of his string music. The fabulous, fearsome (but now dead) Richter used to deal with it, no recording, though.






By R.C. on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 07:29 pm:
    I entered "unknown composers" into the Yahoo search engine & found this page -- with wav. files. (If i can do this link thingee)..

    ,Unknown Composers Page

    So, are they obscure enough for yr discussion?

By R.C. on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 07:33 pm:
    FUCK -- that link thing does NOT work, Mark! (And YES, my brackets were CURLY!)

    http://www.kith.org/jimmosk/TOC.html

    The Unknown Composer's Page

By A friend on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 07:49 pm:
    do you check the recently posted messages with the "New Messages" thingy?

    for example, this one

    and see the advice on slashes here.

    doing a "view source" on your browser will show you exactly what these links look like. Good luck.

By A friend on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 07:56 pm:
    Oh, bet I know what you did, you closed your bracket too soon (needs to be after the comma and the link word)?

    And viewing source, i just discovered that somewhere between the preview of previous message and now it changes the Mark Thomas Markup Language to html. I give up. I'm ready for a job digging potatoes.

By Making Links Kickin Ass on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 08:11 pm:
    LOL! Thanks, Friend. I was finally able to do it -- twice -- on another of Mark's pages. Now I deserve a Margarita! (And I ain't trying for a third link tonite.) As they say in real estate; "Location is everything" -- esp. with those pesky little curly brackets.

    - R.C.

By R.C. on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 08:15 pm:
    OOPS -- Nelly beat me to the punch -- by 2 days -- on mentioning the Obscure Composers page. But SHE didn't manage to do the link thang! Hehehehe!

By Jicotea on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 08:18 pm:
    Only a few of Steven Schwartz's composers are even mildly obscure. Some have even been treated to "complete works" projects on CD. A gander at any recent Schwann/Opus catalog should be enough to indicate that the world is not as he views it.

    He sets up a lot of straw men, claiming neglect where in fact public exposure has been generous. In his judgements and descriptions he reminds me of a third-grader showing a second-grader the ropes.

    This durf posts regularly to rec.music.classical (as I now do), so I hope he never sees this, but I don't really care if he does.

    Those who aren't much into classical music don't twig to more than half a dozen names anyhow. And many who are, are bad with names. Witness my mother-in-law, who noted down from the car radio the name of a composer and work so that I could find the record for her: I spent several minutes working out what she meant by the Ballet Suite of Mark Rega.

By Jicotea on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 08:29 pm:
    R.C.: Easy on those margaritas. You're busy regenerating links after surgery, and that stuff is killing off brain cells at the same rate!

By R.C. on Friday, January 2, 1998 - 11:28 pm:
    I know J.C., but for some reason, the synapses seem to fire A LOT faster when they've got a little lubrication. My spelling improves & my commas don't end up as apostrophes. But a word from The Wiser is sufficient.

By Nancarrow - Looking for Clues on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 01:44 am:
    WARNING: These are queries from a classical cretin that will probably annoy the hell out of you 2/but I don't follow this stuff! So bear with me if I ask what appear to be dumb questions.
    ............................................................................
    Okay, Messeurs Sorabji & Jicoeta: Pls. to explain the obscurity of Mr. Nancarrow. I listened to theTrio piece. It was perfectly amusing -- sounded like something Twyla Tharpe would have coreographed to back in the '80's. The other stuff for player piano was a bit cacophonous/or maybe it was just over my head. But can you explain to the unwashed masses why complex compositions = obscurity for Nancarrow but translate into undying fame for Rachmaninoff? Which is it... the Rach. (Nocturne) 3? that's so difficult to play it makes pianists' teeth fall out? If one has the chops to play Rach. then one should be able to master Nancarrow, yes? Or is fame as a composer simply a matter of how long you've been dead? (Although John Cage is famous & still living/yes? But he's got to be more than 80 by now/if memory serves me correctly.)

    I guess what I'm asking is/What creates a reputation for a composer? In the film industry/ which I know a tad more about/there are varying levels of reputation & obscurity. But you can achieve a certain reputation without actually having your film produced. Ever seen the movie "Jacob's Ladder" (1990 - with Tim Robbins)? It was written by a guy named Bruce Joel Rubin. The script kicked around Hollywood for 10 years under the original title of "Dante's Inferno" before it was finally greenlighted & even won an award on the West coast for Best Unproduced Screenplay. (Hollywood even celebrates obscurity! ) "Jacob's Ladder" was a good movie with a bad ending & it flopped. A year later, Rubin won an Oscar for "Ghost', which sucked. But he is not 'famous' when compared to someone like Joe Eszterhaus ("Flashdance/Basic Instinct/Showgirls/Jade"), whom the avg. moviegoer has probably heard of/even though he will never get an Oscar nomination because everyone on the planet knows he's a Hack For Hire.

    But the classical music biz is different from Hollywood. No performer or record co. would presume to change the title of a composer's work they way they do a writer's screenplay once it's greenlighted. And every composer plays/so even if no one wants to perform their work/they can rent a hall/get up on a stage & perform it themselves for relatively little money. So why is Nancarrow 'obscure/semi-famous'? I had certainly never heard of him until I started hanging out here. But if he were coming-soon-to
    -a-concert-hall-near-me/I'd definitely check him out.

    Inquiring minds wanna know...

    - R.C.

By Jicotea on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 01:57 am:
    Not tonight, honey, I have a headache.
    Tomorrow I will take a deep breath and scoop the poop for you on Conlon Nancarrow (he dead) and if you like, John Cage (he dead also).
    I'll back-channel it instead of cluttering up sorabji.com. Sweet Dreams!

By R.C. on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 02:04 am:
    LOL! What are you doing up at this hour! Go ta bed! Sleep well.

By R.C. on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 02:16 am:
    P.S. re: Bach:

    Ancient legend says that it was Lucifer (his moniker prior to changing it to Satan) who was credited with inventing music in the first place. Well, if Lucifer were a composer/he would have been Bach in my book. For me/his work is a map of the human soul... the 6 Suites for Cello express almost every emotion I can ever remembering experiencing. And some of the Cantatas are so gorgeously melancholic (depression wasn't so terribly underrated in those days)... I know -- every schumck who has ever heard a note of classical musice loves Bach -- but if you've gotta worship a composer/ Bach is as good as they get.

By Sorabji on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 10:36 am:
    Hey! No back-channeling!

By R.C. on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 12:57 pm:
    Sorry Sorabji -- I have muddied your page enough. Forgot to wipe my feet again. Jicotea says he will reveal the deepest secrets of the Obscure Composers Club to me via e-mail so as not to bogart your BBS. (And if I was too long-winded, I am sorry/but t'was late & the mind doth ramble...)

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 01:18 pm:
    re: Jicotea's reference to my reference of J.S.Bach being a "demi-god" - - I meant that in the sense that when you ask a citizen on the street to name some classical composers, Bach and Beethoven are invariably the ones they name. I didn't say I thought Bach *should* be considered a demi-god, I was simply commenting on his immense popularity and virtual deification by the masses. I was commenting how UNFORTUNATE it is that Bach was considered a demi-god while others go unknown.

    As for Zelenka, I was by no means implying that he was a "heavy hitter", I was simply throwing his name out there as a (relatively) obscure classical composer and making the observation that while your average professorial "classical snob" might tell us that Bach is far superior to Zelenka, there really isn't that tangible a difference in their ultra-busy contrapuntal technique, at least not to my plebian ears. I still wouldn't go so far as to classify either one as being on the same level as Pachelbel. Ack.

    Conlon Nancarrow : classical or not, I greatly enjoy his stuff, and it doesn't bother me that no human can play the pieces, that's part of his shtick and I love it for its own sake. Like Varese, his name has been bandied about by Frank Zappa, though, so he's not quite as obscure as some.

    When I mentioned Stockhausen before, I'm surprised some smarty didn't jump up and say "which one??" ;)

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 03:29 pm:
    Me again, cluttering up more bandwidth.

    Someone just sent me an e-mail who seemed to think I was attacking J.S.Bach in my last post. Nothing could be farther from the truth; Bach is so great it goes without saying. All I was decrying is that so many people think Bach and Beethoven is all there is to classical music, and that next to one has heard of Jan Zelenka.

    If I had my choice I'd be listening to Liszt's "Todtentanz" right now anyways.

By R.C. on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 03:42 pm:
    JSH -- I rented 'The Iron Man' -- too bizarre! Like a nightmare after eating bad sushi. If your film is along similar lines technically/I'd love to come & work for you. I know nothing about all that stop-motion jazz/but it's always fascinated me.
    And Happy New Year! (Pls.send me yr e-mail address again -- I can't find it posted here anymore.)

    R.C.


By Jicotea on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 09:09 pm:
    J.S.H.: I hope you caught the jocuIar tone in my last address to you. "Kid" is too insulting a term to apply seriously!

    My Zelenka/Pachelbel parallel takes in more than the latter's celebrated Canon. He committed quite a bit of less tricksy and more serious music as well.

    There are baroque composers, and then there is Bach. It's that simple. You should be lurking in the background, eavesdropping on the hardheads who post regularly to the newsgroup rec.music.classical. If you don't have a newsserver, you can get to them through Dejanews. Eventually you will join them, I predict. Then you and Eric Schlissel can weep in each others java about all the hordes of neglected composers. I tend to be Darwinian about it.

By Jicotea on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 09:18 pm:
    Persistent references to Frank Zappa irritate me.
    He started out as a simple asshole and wound up as a pretentious (also dead) asshole. His most characteristic line: "Classical music is for old ladies and faggots." Nuf sed. Almost. His own later attempts to get out of the no-talent (read rock) rut are intensely lame.

    Understand my position.
    I.won't.stay.in.the.same.room.with.pop.music,
    _any_ genre.

    Your ultimate bigot!

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 09:54 pm:
    R.C. - you can email me at either jholland@iclub.org or creepsfilms@earthling.net, Happy New Year to you too! I'm sure I won't go as comically overboard on the effects as Tsukamoto, but yeah, that industrial-horror look is sorta what I'm looking for.

    Jicotea - no offense taken :) ...As far as Pachelbel vs. Zelenka, I will cleave to your judgment on this one, as Pachelbel's work has never left enough of an impression on me to be able to make any comment pro or con about it.....rec.music.classical, I went there long ago and it was nothing but arguing (like most newsgroups).......As for neglected composers, well, I tend to seek out the obscure in everything - what the masses enjoy and what history tells us is good almost never coincides with what I like, though I do listen to virtually all recorded sound in existence, including race-car sound effects records and cylinders of Alma Gluck.......re: Frank Zappa, I have a love/hate relationship with him, mostly hate. Both my references to him were intended to be subtly disparaging, if that wasn't evident :) The real puzzle is that despite his anti-classical quote you provided, he actually fancied himself as a modern neo-classical composer, yet he chose to waste 99.9 percent of his career making "progressive rock", whatever the fuck that is. Sad.

    I like "The Chrome Plated Megaphone of Destiny", though.


By R.C. on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 10:03 pm:
    Ahem -- gentleman/I am STILL waiting for someone to explain to me why Nancarrow is obscure because of his complex compositions,
    while Rachmaninoff is celebrated for same. I mean/who am I gonna ask but YOU GUYS?

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 10:31 pm:
    Obscurity, like everything else, is relative, but Nancarrow is obscure because, well, next to noone has ever heard of him. Rachmaninoff, on the other hand, is taught in elementary school music class.

By Jicotea on Saturday, January 3, 1998 - 10:59 pm:
    R.C.: A little patience, please! I had to mull over Nancarrow, and do a little listening. I might even change my mind and get interested in him, because even the furthest-out stretches of his piano music have a fey charm. He has not just gone beyond the digital capabilities of pianists, but pushes the piano to the physical limits of its action.

    But he didn't push himself on the public, and his works are hardly likely to appeal to an audience which wants a sweating human being up there on stage pummelling away.

    Which they definitely got with ol' Sergei Rachmaninov. While S.R.'s music is often brutally difficult, it is playable, it is intensely if conventionally melodic, and, as you would surely be able to feel at any live performance, it is calculated for maximum sonority and emotive presence.

    Most of it I don't want to hear again right away. But there's one piece I slip on the vic whenever I need to get the juices circulating:
    Symphonic Dances, op. 45 (his last work, composed in 1940). A two-piano recording from Teldec by Martha Argerich and Nikolas Rabinovich is just un-effing-incredible! In respect to full-bloodedness and general consequentiality it leaves Conlon Nancarrow's farthest-out trampled in the dust.

By R.C. on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 12:01 am:
    Thank you, Obe Wan Kenobi! I will go forth in search of the Symphonic Dances op.45 tomorrow. (My Rach. collection is nil/having gone the way of all things when one moves too often). Is the Teldec recording terribly hard to find? Will I have to mortgage my beachouse?

By Jicotea on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 05:29 am:
    It makes me uncomfortable to see people pissing away their hard-won substance on objects they may not like, just on some random person's say-so. Can you play cassettes? I'll make you a tape if you'll e-mail your snailmail location.

    (Besides, there are two much less interesting pieces filling out that pricey Teldec CD). I'll fill out a tape with other, related stuff which I think is good. Not all piano music, either.

By Jicotea on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 05:41 am:
    JSH: Maybe nobody took you up on Stockhausen(s) because nobody cared. All I can observe is that Karlheinz has the limpest, clammiest handshake ever proffered by a member of homo sap. I haven't gotten square with the music of pere or fils, early or late, and don't intend to make the effort. Life is too short. And to think KHS studied with the worshipful Frank Martin at Koeln!

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 10:10 am:
    Life isn't THAT short. I manage to be interested in *everything*, and still find time to get the real work done, as well as eat Bonbons and watch sunsets....


By Jicotea on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 10:54 am:
    When you get a few years on you :-) kid (-:
    you will start making distinctions. Mark my words.

    (signed)

    oldphart

By R.C. on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 12:41 pm:
    Jicotea -- Yes, I can & do play casettes. My address is on it's way via e-mail. Thanks!

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 01:21 pm:
    Jicotea - um, how much older do I have to get? I'm already over the hill.

    And in my experience, making extremely opinionated distinctions is something associated with youth. In my experience, it is only with age that perspective comes and all the distinctions that seemed so important before don't matter so much anymore.

    Everything is all the same stuff in the end - bad art, good art, bad music, good music, fleas, paint, philosophy, eggnog, fear, Dostoevsky, dirt, spinach, Belgium, lint.....

    it's all just...stuff. Any meaning we attach to it we invented ourselves. I grow ever more detached from it all with each passing year yet grow exponentially more fascinated with it all at the same time. Try having autonomous tastes sometime, it's a thrill a minute.

By Jicotea on Sunday, January 4, 1998 - 02:50 pm:
    Admirable, possibly. Maybe I never grew up.

By Sorabji on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 11:21 am:
    Re: Zappa.

    Zappa was highly intelligent, but it's unfortunate how his marginal and un-interesting symphonic compositions are routinely trotted out as an example of a pop musician who can actually write notes on paper.

    Zappa had interesting advice for young people thinking about getting into the arts. He said if you have real talent then please avoid getting into music or art. Talented and intelligent people should go into politics or public service, because that is where such people are most needed. So much talent goes to waste in the arts.

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 01:44 pm:
    Sorabji : agreed, his symphonic stuff, which he was SO proud of, was mostly sleepy-n-feeble. It's almost like the form was more important than content to him. Some really interesting themes pop up (if only for moments) in stuff like "Dental Hygeine Dilemma", "Greggary Peccary", etc. but it's always ruined by the sophomoric squeaky voices chattering about stealing towels from motels, or scatological meanderings.

    I read a interview with him around 1990 where he said he'd just realized the importance of timbre. Well, better late than never.

    History will probably be kinder to Zappa, when some future generation starts conducting new performances of his works, no doubt ignoring the stupider parts of the libretto and rewriting Zappa's history, painting him as some noble genius trapped in a primitive era, much as Zappa himself tried to do for his alleged ancestor, Francesco Zappa.

    Gosh, such run-on sentences.

By UHURU on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 05:22 pm:
    fRANK zAPPA WAS CRUEL TO HIS SCHOOLMATE cAPTAIN bEEFHEART.

By AntManBee on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 05:44 pm:
    At the concert with Frank Zappa and his band in the 70's Every time one of his bandmembers did their solo thing and would be just starting to 'get into a groove' . . Frank would come forward with his funky guitar-that he's not really good at -and would cut them off to show that he was the boss. What a drag but it was a good concert with front row center seats. (Sure, I bought the Mothers of Invention first album from the Singer Sewing Machine stores album section! Also the Hendrix All Along the WatchTower was found there)
    Just think that F.Z.s memory should not be revered.

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 07:54 pm:
    Okay, I'm sorry I started a Frank Zappa discussion. Let's change the subject to.......Stockhausen ;)


By R.C. on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 09:43 pm:
    Pls. to explain who Stockhausen is & what he wrote & when/so I may look him up. (Sounds like a brewery scion. I cd swear I've drunk Stockhausen Dark somewhere...)

By Jeffrey Scott Holland on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 10:11 pm:
    R.C. - to be continued to a new thread since these pages are getting looooonger and loooooonger to load....

By R.C. on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 10:48 pm:
    Truly! But I figured Sorabji wd have to fix that...

By Schissel on Sunday, February 1, 1998 - 12:44 am:
    To pick up that old thread on Obscure Composers- try Friedrich Gernsheim (once not so obscure). Or Hugo Kauder (once and still obscure.)

By Mossback lurker on Friday, February 6, 1998 - 09:30 pm:
    Gernsheim? I never heard a note by him. That's obscure, OK. Kauder I once met, looking appallingly sick -- he was uniform shade of grey, hair, suit, and face. Just like his music. Eric, you've got to give up on _some_ of these people, like this Viennese relict of an ancient empire. Concentrate on some who are revivable!


By
Eric Schissel on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 11:33 am:

    Well, I still haven't heard any Kauder (he or his descendants have set up their own website, though.) Gernsheim, though, I've now heard four symphonies (on Arte Nova), a cello sonata (Genesis LP), and the cello concerto (broadcast tape) by, and I'd say he's revivable. My honest, singular, and just meant to be my subjective opinion, which is not, thousand times not, meant to mean that those who disagree with me are lacking in anything, to paraphrase what pTerry finds so disagreeable about abusers of "imho" *chuckle* ...
    But I don't mean that you mightn't want to try out those symphonies on Arte Nova; or his 2nd string quartet when the Mandelring quartet records it for the (Europe-only, I gather; hopefully some US distributor will pick it up ... sigh) Lotus label, too, as is on their list of projects, according to their website.
    The first of his violin sonatas was broadcast over Bayer region radio a few months back, sometimes a sign that someone's mooting a recording project, sometimes not. His first piano quintet has also been radio-broadcast in Germany.
    I've looked at a large number of his scores, unlike Kauder (I've only looked at one of his), so while I'm -not- an expert on Gernsheim, I have some notion what I'm talking about and whether there's a there there... and having heard some of them reinforces me in the notion. But ultimately you have to be your own judge of the matter.
    Stylistically somewhere - well, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, chromatically a bit more advanced especially in the later works? The August 1999 Gramophone review of the symphonies gave a reasonably good description of them, even though from scores I still prefer his chamber music to his symphonic music- but the symphonies are growing on me anyway with repeated listening. Not sure just what to say about stylistic comparison, no. Not something I excel in describing.


By Joe on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 02:10 am:

    mark, this is the reason i would like to connect with you. in 1970 when i was just 16 years old i discovered nancarrow. i bought a recording of the studies for player piano. my parents couldn't stand it but i played it every day. i connected with the fact that these pieces could only be played mechanically. except that, later on, the works were performed live by 16 players at 8 pianos. oh well, you'll never respond. maybe one of your "regulars" will understand.


By Ryan Hayes on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 01:52 am:

    I think focusing on the "impossibility" of Nancarrow's music is
    the wrong way of looking at things. He used the piano as a sort
    of mechanical sequencer. It was a tool, he used it.


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