Kicked Saving Pvt. ryan's ass. Really demonstrated the futility of war ad didn't fal into the trap of stereotyping the opponent as inhuman or being the "bad guy".In fact, I think it's one of the only war movies I've seen where the Japanese are actually portrayed as human! The contrasting shots between the beauty of the island with the hell that was going on made a far more effective rendering of the environment of the soldiers than SPR. I liked the voice-overs and glimpses into the soldiers' thoughts, as well as the shift of perspective away from teh Americans to the Japanese during the scene right after the bunker was taken. Pretty damn impressive, and Malick was screwed by the Oscars.

Yes! YES!! I thought the same way! You are the only other person I know of besides my mother who even LIKE the movie. Most people I've talked to thought is was so boring and artsy and pretentious. Screw them. It's one of the best movies I've ever seen. I saw it 4 times. Unfortunately, I saw it last in January, so I can't really remember all the things I was so taken with. By. Whatever. I credit this movie with completely changing the way I thought about men. I really don't know what exact feature of the movie revealed this to me, but leaving the theater I saw that men and women really are the same inside. Fundamentally, there is no difference. Even more, it showed so clearly that no one loves war...from the privates to the generals, it is painful for everyone involved. And yet men continue to be involved, despite that fact, which is so interesting to me. The movie showed so well that no one wanted to be there, and yet they were all there. I'm not explaining it right, I think. There's more to it than this, but I can't get the words out. THen, another great thing was the love between all the men. Between fellow soldiers and between the enemies. And no one was evil. The Japanese were exactly like the Americans: scared. Not evil, inhuman, lunatic kamikazes, as other movies portray them. Even that US soldier who pulled out his enemies' teeth was not a one-dimensional sadistic character -- you saw how he suffered for his acts. Plus, the "good" characters (like Witt) also killed and did "bad" things. So, right, no stereotypes! Brilliant! I'm not saying the right things. The movie is, to me, something spiritual and super-natural. It's not like anything else, and when you see it, it does something to your insides. I wish I could explain it better. You know what I'm talking about, right?

Exactly. Rhiannon, we REALLY have to hang out when I come to Philly.

When are you coming again? March what?

april 3-7, at the downtown Marriott, although I probably will be looking for a cheaper motel and will probabaly be going in on one with a bunch of guys.

I saw this. I rented it because i thought it would have really good sound, and i was testing the parmeters of my new system... I LOVED THIS. For some of the reasons you two mention above. What struck me the most was indeed the futilty of the mountain. When they finally reached the top, you expected the film to end. But it didn't. It put them right back where they were. This was no typical war flic. The sounds were amazing, as were the voice overs, the day dreaming.... the editing was brilliant. I have not seen any of the other films this director has made, but I have been told, they are similar in nature, that is, you start out with something beautiful and innocent, someone paints it ugly, throws rocks at it, shits on it, whatever, and you are left with something that still has beauty. the main character, to me exemplified this. And i agree Rhi, the human element could not have been better portrayed. The scene when they storm the village at the top of the hill, put my wife and tears, and put me damn close. As far as war films goes, this one rates up next to Apocalypse Now.......unfucking believeable.....it's no longer about how glorious war is, but rather how fucked up the people who come out of it are, how we take a human soul and put it through the fucking ringer, and for what....like they stated in Thin Red Line, a piece of property....... i'm 100% draft dodger, should the call ever come

I loved Thin Red Line too. I can't explain why it affected me so much. But I came out of theatre--with this inexplicable feeling in me.

i came out of my living room and went for a bong hit in the kitchen. THAT left me with a weird feeling

I'm so glad you guys like the movie! Spread the word. And if, in the course of your evangelization, anyone tells you that they've seen it and hated it, kick their teeth in.

You got it!

Will do.

I have. Just kidding.

This movie was alright but Saving Private Ryan was better. I normally don't like war movies, this movie was an example of why. Saving Private Ryan didn't refresh my dislike towards war movies like this one did.

Explain. The thing about SPR for me, every time i see it, i like it less. I now consider it to be pretty mediocre. Strip away the ultra realism in the combat scenes, and you have just another movie about WWII. The Thin Red Line made me think hard about war. SPR just made me glad i never had to fight in one, and impressed with the guts folks have while fighting in war. But as far as any type of deep contact with something I felt was real about the human condition, it's The Thin red line all the way.

I would put Thin Red Line up with Apocalypse now and Platoon, whereas I would not put SPR up there. It was an ok movie, I guess, but it really didn't force me to think and examine war the way Thind Red Line did. I came out of the theatre after SPR thinking: "Ok. That was a decent movie, I guess. An ok way to spend a few hours." After Thin Red Line, on the other hand, the old noggin was working double time--it really made me examine the whole concept of warfare and why it's here. (Er...shouldn't be here.)

Yeah, what they said. Plus, allow me to give you this illustration: In SPR, you had the stock character of the scared little new guy who stumbles a few times but manages to pull himself together by the end to kill the nasty Nazi bastard like the good American he is. In the Thin Red Line, they were all scared. And some pulled themselves together and a few fell apart, like real people do in real wars. Real people are not stereotypes. And the men they fought were also real. Not the stereotype Japanese soldiers (the stereotype being inhuman, unfeeling, rat-like, barbaric...a stereotype that continued into the Vietnam War...read "Achilles in Vietnam" by Jonathan Shay for more details). And also, there were no cheap ploys for emotion. I remember the scene in Saving Private Ryan where all the men are on a hill and Tom Hanks is telling them how he's just a simple school teacher, and the music is swelling gloriously behind him. Was that necessary? No, it was lo.com.denom. stuff. I don't need to be told when to emote, thanks. That's why TRL was so good. Even Witt's death at the end was handled simply and clearly and without the otherwise-ever-present tugs on the heartstrings. And it was art. It was beautiful. It was like a sculpture. Every scene, every shot....full of myth and symbolism, too (do you know how much conversation that alligator generated among these parts? And *nobody came up with the same answer*...what I consider a mark of genius: the movie left room for the viewer in its message.) It *allowed* us to reach our own conclusions. It gave us that honor. Beat that, Saving Private Ryan.

"Rat-like"----an interesting analogy."Saving Ryan's Private Parts", was much more enlightening.

I have not see SPR, but I have seen Saving Ryans Privates, the kids who made this short ended up working for Spielberg. Just for fun, I borrowed Apocalypse Now from a buddy, so I could watch it on my news system and holy shit, that opening with the song The End is just fucking epic. It took 3 years to make that movie and mr.sheen had a heart attack after filming that first scene in which he punches the mirror............

I keep hearing peoploe say that a great aspect was that the Japanese were portrayed as humans, just like us, scared, etc. and that this makes the movie much more realistic than other war movies. Actually, the opposite is true. It's a narrative. Its job is to present a point of view, in most cases in war movies, that of the soldiers and civilians on one side. And when you're fighting a war, that's necessarily your view of the enemy: unhuman, inhumane, something to be wiped out before it erases your existence. Humans don't easily kill other human beings in normal circumstances. There is a need to demonize the other, which isn't really hard to do when he's trying to kill you and yours. The first step towards war is to dehumanize the other while rallying your own group against a threat from the subhumans. Milosevic started this in June of 1989 with his infamous speech in Kosovo whipping up Serb resentment. Soon, each side has derogatory names for the other: Cetnik, Turk, Ustase. If you're in the jungles of Burma being hunted down by Japanese troops who have been torturing and slaughtering your fellow countrymen, you don't survive by saying, "Hmmm, these guys are human beings just like myself, with the same aspirations, hopes, and dreams. I'm sure they have parents and siblings and families who love them. Why can't we all just get along?" If you're trying to bond and connect with the other guy with a gun, you'll never pull the trigger; but he will. In other words, most movies, unless they're specifically trying to do something different with multiple points of view, present the enemy as rather two-dimensional cardboard figures, because that's realistically how they were viewed, as Japs or Krauts or gooks, i.e., foreign and inimicable to me and my platoon buddies and our way of life. In peacetime, these thing melt away for the most part. No one here can imagine the depth of the national shock and hatred resulting from the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. It's almost unbelievable, if you think of it, how quickly Japan became a normal trading partner and ally, after the brutal war between us, from Pearl Harbor to Nagasaki. Damn, I'm argumentative lately. For some reason, I've been reliving my time in the Yugoslav civil war quite a bit lately, perhaps because I just saw my close friend and former bodyguard over New Years for the first time in five years, and we naturally talked late into the night about Bosnia. Maybe this is why military topics are setting me off. Whatever, I've got to get out more, before I become that guy who posts the long boring rants.

Markus,you,re never boring

feel free to post long boring rants, and war stories. Why were you in Bosnia? You served in the Navy right? Body guard? The difference about Thin Red Line was not necessarily the POV of us OR them. It was a statement about war itself. Portraying the Amercian side simply gave us a something to grasp a little easier, being Americans and all. I understand the need to demonize from a soldiers point of view, but this movie didn't have the POV on particular soldier. Giving the enemy a human face and emotion further drove home the point of the movie.

The long version is elsewhere on the boards, but it's buried about a year and a half back. I was a naval officer in the mid-80's. I got out. In the mid-90's, I spent about two and a half years in the former Yugoslavia during the height of the war, first as the Deputy Chief in charge of Bosnia, United Nations Fire and Emergency Medical Services, in which capacity I had a couple of Scottish former SAS guys as close protection, though I usually just had them do something more useful. I lived in Sarajevo, a great town. I ran the only ambulance service in the city, distributed aid through the country, and fought fires on all three sides. We usually got the frontline, minefield stuff that no one else would or could do. Business was booming (so to speak). There were also a lot of public works and utility jobs that fell to us by default, since the locals and the UN in general vied to see who could be more mindlessly bureaucratic, corrupt, and inept. Fuck the French. After that, I ran worldwide distribution for a German medical humanitarian organization, which at that time was focused mostly on the former Yugoslavia. I lived in Munich, but travelled monthly to Croatia, central Bosnia and Serbia. My life is rather dull now.

i see, so were you ever put in a combat type situation, or at least your duties didn't entail combat. SAS, Special Armed Services? They are like Navy Seals, Green Berets or something like that right? I have scene many a photo essays on that whole conflict. it's very surreal. The nature of the war to me never seemed to be about troops and razor wire and front lines and trenches and what not, But more about who could utilize minimal resources better, or who ever had the better perch to snipe from.

Almost the entire war was about troops and front lines and trenches. It was essentially WW I fought with WW II weapons. The front lines seldom moved; they just killed each other in the trenches and mined no-mans-lands for four years. This was the army vs. army war. The other war conducted simultaneously was the war against civilians. It was fought by terror, using snipers, mortars, mass rapes, concentration camps, and atrocities. This was mostly the world we lived in. We were in a combat situation 24 hours a day. We were living in Sarajevo, for fuck's sake. The whole city was a killing ground. My fire station was 200 meters from the front line. Like everyone else, we were targets at any time, particularly of smipers. When engaged in an operation, we were more often than not targeted specifically, by sniper fire, mortars, or antiaircraft guns. This is why in Sarajevo, it was safer to be in a burning building than outside of it, while fighting the fire. The part of my service of which I am most proud is that I got all my people back alive and unscathed. Except for a bad sniper incident at the Holiday Inn, when the aforementioned bodyguard got hit by fragments of a bullet while rescuing one of my firefighters trapped under the engine, but that was his job, so it doesn't count. I and my two bodyguards were the only people in the UN who carried both forms of ID: UNPROFOR (the blue helmet military) and UNHCR (High Commissioner for Refugess). We were therefore armed humanitarians. When efficacious, we did shoot back. We had a better arsenal than any firehouse I've ever seen. SAS is the British Special Air Service, bad mofos. We have no equivalent; the Green Berets are punks. The SBS (Special Boat Squadrons) are their equivalent of our SEALs, but not as good. One of my guys decided that SAS service in Northern Ireland was interesting enough, so he enlisted for five and a half years in the French Foreign Legion before coming to work for me.

this is all very interesting. I was reading an article in one of the brainless magaazines I used to get. They had a recap of all the special forces of various nations, such as Israel, France, UK, Russia, Australia and the US. The Green Beret's as I recalled it were indeed portrayed as chumps and they didn't rank well with the others. I think the French special forces, whatever they may be called, and the Israeli and British groups were also ranked pretty highly, the Seals were somewhere in the middle.

Sector Sarajevo was a French sector at the time. Most of them were cowardly, ignorant, and insolent, which may be no surprise to the greater sorabji community. But I became close friends with a small group of French special forces when we worked an operation together in the no-mans-land near the airport for a couple days. They were great guys, and seriously bad asses if necessary. One of them subsequently went into GSG-9, the anti-terrorist force, and badly injured his spine in a low-level parachute jump. He's been screwed over by his government, partially because of his contact with us foreigners. The Israelis are second to none, due to lots of experience and the life or death need to be. Necessity is a mother. But if I'm in a tight place, I want the Brits. There was a Russian battalion stationed on the Serb side, and I got to know them by polishing off my rusty Russian. They invited me to a dinner one time that included a Spetsnaz demonstration which was quite impressive. (Spetsnaz is from the Russian for "special purpose", and is their formerly kickass bad boys. See Viktor Suvorov, The Liberators and Inside the Aquarium for a very readable first person account which you'll never forget.) I got my BA in Soviet and East European Studies with an emphasis on political, military, and intelligence affairs, and I thought if I ever saw Spetsnaz in action, it would be in the Fulda Gap and would likely be one of the last things I ever saw. I also flew regularly on Ilyushin-76s between Zag and Jevo. Pretty weird for an old cold warrior. I'm obviously getting little enough work done today. But we just got hit by a large snowstorm, so the entire area's shut down anyway.

I never thought about it til now, but the whole Yugoslav war seems to have been portrayed in America as a "war on civilians." I can't recall any coverage at all of fighting that didn't take place in the cities. A cold reminder of how little we are really told.

I thought I was clear on that. The majority of the dead were not soldiers in uniform. And a large part of the fighting between armies did take place in or for control of the cities. That's probably the only aspect of the war that was reported correctly.

I thinkn I got confused when you were talking about the trench warfare and how it was like WWI fought with WWII weapons. That was what I hadn't heard about before.

Oh. I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that in a way there were two wars happening: the military and the civilian. It was the latter that was bloodier, and obviously against the Geneva Conventions as well as Western sensibilities about the rules of war. So it got more coverage, since it was atrocities and genocide, whereas combat between armies was not, which incidentally I feel was correct. Two armies battling somewhere around the world is probably not much my business, but genocide elsewhere is. And it must be said that an even more significant reason it got more coverage was that was where the journos were, with the civilians. There were very few to none in the trenches. I saw daily this principle in action, taking the easy and safe route to news reporting. For instance, a seven year old boy near where I was standing being interviewed by NBC News was shot in the head by a sniper. There happened to be journalists everywhere around the museum at that moment, and the picture of the dead kid lying on the ground with a pool of blood flowing from his head while my deputy and another of my firefighter/medics (a Canadian, incidentally) reacting nearby went all around the world provoking passionate editorials, inspired a documentary, and got me a live interview on Sky-TV in Europe. But that sort of thing happened several times a day, every day, without the world's notice. The only difference: journos were around since it had been relatively quiet and safe lately in the city, and it was a slow news day. The "military war" happened similarly to WW I (obligatory litery recommendation: The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman) in that initially it was a dynamic grab for territory, but when the armies crashed up against each other, they just tumbled down into the trenches for the bloody duration and hammered away at each other.

i had a dream last night- (i don't really know how to explain it)- i never had a dream like this before. it started out that i was just running around in some store, but then i got this impression that i was playing a video game where i was some monster/dinosaur thing. but at the same time it was more like a virtual reality thing because my body movements translated to the thing that i was. (this is sounding stupid) anyway, the point is that i had to kill these people that showed up because thay were going to kill me. but i had to get close to them (i didn't have weapons, just my arms, teeth, whatever) and i could see their faces. i couldn't do it (kill them). i started feeling sick and then i woke up.

yeah but did you watch Thin Red Line prior?

Hey, I just got into an argument with someone about this movie. I told him anyone who hates it is a vulgar, mouth-breathing, soulless idiot, and he still told me he hated it. WTF? I said all that mouth-breathing must have dried up the sulcus of his brain devoted to good taste. He said, "yeah, well, you don't like the MC5!" "We're talking about art here, drooler. Do you mind staying on topic?" "The MC5 were art!" God help us.

Weren't they a band? From Detroit? MC5?

yes......a semi-decent motor city/stooges-esw rock band with Wayne Kramer....they rocked, but only for a bit. only one album is woth a shit. MC5 were not art.....just a decent rock band. you should have flogged him rhi.

Don't feel bad Rhi,I got into a argument with some asshole once and he told me that I was wasting my breath,because he doesn't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die. Talk about going ballistic!

The MC5 were the equivalent of the Stooges' big brother. The Stooges rocked so much more. But I wouldn't call either of them art. Which album, Patrick? The guy above had been playing "Kick out the Jams" for me. I didnt like it much. J, did you offer to kick him in the stomach?

i thought the point was that they were more interested in being white panthers than rock stars. (wick-wick-wick... WACK.) that band "at the drive in" reminds me of MC5. but that's probably strictly superficial. white guys with afros and james brown shake-shake-shake-it-baby! hip grind. neo-elvis stage gimmicks with some "JUMP BACK! KISS MUHSELF!" an' shit. emo-politico-simpatico blah-blah-blah in my motherfucking pants. anyway. i haven't listened to either band enough to make any judgements. it's too bad markus isn't here anymore. my brother just started working for the U.N. in sarajevo about a month and a half ago. he could use a head's up on where to run when the shit hits the fan. or where to drink heavily when things start falling apart. or a few good reasons why new york city is a better third world country to work in than either haiti or bosnia. too bad about markus, though. he was probably the most interesting person this blatherhole has ever seen.

yeah thats the only album I have.....its adecent rock album. Stooges totally rocked more....and the Stooges broke ground in the way of punk rock . Stooges were artists by accident I think.

Swine, you'll just have to take fill the void in the meantime. Patrick, you are correct. I'm bored. Somebody amuse me.

Damn. Take the lead and fill the void. Still bored. This morning I was writing pages of emails to people. Now I'm semi-comatose. Help.

"take the lead and fill the void!" that's what all the girls say.

I often breathe through my mouth.

No Rhiannon,I didn't kick him,but I got the better of him in the end. I miss Markus too,he got a new job and that's all he wrote.

Why does getting a new job preclude posting here? Same thing with Trace -- he was going somewhere for training and bid everybody farewell. What's up with that?

I didn't post for a while after I got my new job. Then things changed so that some days were less busy than others. Today is a slow day. But I just got a raise! My boss likes me. And how do I pay him back? By talking to you guys on company time. That's ingratitude for you. Bye.

Raises are a good thing. Congrats, Rhiannon. Gonna go blow it on a big dinner or something good?

If you want to know what war is really like read "Flags of Our Fathers" by James Bradley. It is wicked. And, I read a lot of military history.

Wow, I actually just read this whole thread, and I can see why you guys miss Markus. Interesting guy with an interesting background. I retract my "Why does getting a new job preclude posting here?" statement, at least for him. As long as everyone's posting war books, Andersonville, by MacKinley Kantor -- great civil war novel.

Speaking of civil war (and this has nothing to do with nothing) but at any rate, I heard Guns & Roses' Civil War on the radio today, and Axl says at the end of the song, "What's so civil about war anyway?" How lame.

i toured Andersonville in grade school. Shit was depressing and terrifying.

I read "The Andersonville Diaries" by John Something a few years ago...depressing and terrifying is right. I like Michael Shaara's "The Killer Angels" the best of all war fiction I've read. You get lines like, "his head felt vacant, like a room in which there has been a butchering" on every other page. Nonfiction favorite is probably "Campaigning with Grant" by Horace Porter, one of Grant's aides. Really detailed study of Grant's character and actions. John Bowers' "Chickamauga and Chattanooga : The Battles That Doomed the Confederacy" isn't very well-written, but it's very entertaining. Then there's a biography of Nathan Bedford Forrest I read and liked, but I can't remember what it's called. "That Devil Forrest"? Dougie: Yes, I went out to dinner on my new paycheck, but I didn't blow it all....I'm thinking of going clothes shopping tomorrow though...

yeah not just the pictures of the inmates...but seeing the "creek" they used for not only drinking water but to bathe in. i couldn't see any water. it's a ditch about a foot deep and a foot wide. After rains im sure there is water. The land felt so very creepy. The hot humid southern GA sun was brutal at times, I can feel it now. You felt the hundred of americans that died there. Whats relly messed up about places like that and other Civil War battle fields i've gone to is how pretty and untouched they look. you try to imagine the horror, the wagons, cannons, guns shots, smoke etc...but often the grass is so green after being looked after by the Parks and Rec Dept. it's difficult to imagine what happened there. The Civil War has always been a fascination for me. unfortunately the west coast has no reminents of such history.

when i was in rehab my pulmonary therapist suggested i read about the civil war. she was trying to get me to take up a hobby, and that was hers. i never did read a civil war book, unless you count the novel "cold mountain". which i liked, but it's not really a "war novel".

I went to Gettysburg today, by myself. I had intended to drive just up to Frederick, MD, because I'd never been to that part of MD before. My roommate and her visiting sister still weren't up at 1:00 this afternoon, so I just left them a note and took off for Rt. 270. Rt. 270 turns into Rt. 15 in Frederick. Rt. 15 takes you to Gettysburg. So I went. I had forgotten how much I love it there. The terrain is absolutely gorgeous -- hilly fields, low mountains covered with trees, glacial boulders in Devil's Den. It's incredibly peaceful, and you feel like you're in a church when you're there -- Lincoln was accurate when he called it hallowed ground. At this time of year, there are very few visitors, and I enjoyed tramping about in the woods by myself. I felt perfectly safe. Every time I go there, I am newly astonished at how eager the other visitors are to talk to you. It's a really neat place. And I found it's only about an hour and a half away. I think I'll go again soon.

No matter what time of year you choose to visit you're sure to find that FREDRICK County is a place for all seasons. After you visit once, You'll want to return again and again. Looking to be used in FREDRICK Maryland 11/6/00 6am. Will be in the Fredrick Maryland area this morning at 6am. Looking for any truckers who would like to use me. Total bottom! Any takers...... I'll be on Channel 24 ask for "shadow" In FREDRICK, Maryland, some children are surprised to see two Santa Clauses – one wearing stars and stripes, and another in a Confederate uniform. Civil War lore has it that when Thomas J. Jackson's redoubtable veterans marched southward through FREDRICK, Maryland on Saturday September 6, 1862, an elderly woman named Barbara Fritchie defiantly waved a Union flag at "Stonewall" and exclaimed: "Shoot if you must this old gray head, but spare your country's flag." Stephanie Serna. FREDRICK, Maryland. It has been reported that this "Devil woman", has falsely accused at least two men of rape. One of them being a college student from Canada; Who was forced to leave his university, (Gannon University, Penn.) even though he had not been convicted of a crime. George Linwood Cottier was born on Oct 10, 1911 in New Orleans, Louisiana. He went to a school for the retarded at FREDRICK, Maryland.He was taught a trade in shoe making, although He never worked at it.George was a good, kind, gentle person. Shortly before she met her tragic end by impalement when a chair rung she was tuning slipped from place under terrific pressure, Mrs Petranick informed us that John had the knowledge to operate recording equipment and that he was a hypnotist. Evidently, he would go to Fonotone with Blind Joe Death and Blind Thomas. The next morning the a & R man would awaken with a slight headache and a stack of unidentified masters. All Fonotone recordings are made at 78 rpm (that's the big brittle record with the small hole) and all were recorded in FREDRICK Maryland unless otherwise stated. The Western Maryland Swingers Association. Weekend hotel parties for couples only, held in major area cities such as FREDRICK, MD. Select single females may attend on a case-by-case basis. Entrance fee includes mini-bar, finger foods and condoms.

where do you get this stuff, cyst?

id guess she types the subject, such as "Dorian" or "Frederick, MD" it into a search engine and picks items that would make for an intersting post. perhaps in protest of anything intersting said here as of late.. maybe.....

google.com: fredrick maryland dorian fuck texas moravia sorabji on that last one, I found a web page of yours, pez. in terms of time wasters, it's more fun than "civilization," the eight-year-old video game I'd been playing too much. each time I've constructed one of those posts, I've always been so excited to find there are authentic people doing authentic things out there.