During the entire Oscar ceremonies, Crowe had a farbissiner face on him!heh Not once did he crack a smile or laugh during the opening monologue. He looked like a DINGO caught in HEADLIGHTS!eheheh In the end, why the hell did he win!?eheh

You need to use more "eheheheheh's".We're not always sure what you mean.

eh?

I didn't realise they gave the Best Actor Oscar to the person who laughed hardest during the ceremony. How bloody fascinating.

i think he earned it. He was great in Gladiator....but you know, I thought he was better in The Insider. When I heard how thick his accent was, it makes his performance in The Insider much more admirable.

He doesn't have an accent, Patrick. You do.

I loved the movie Almost Famous,but I think the only reason Kate Hudson was nominated, was because of her mother Goldie Hawn and her s/o Kurt Russell,same goes for alot of these people that get nominated,it seems to me that alot of the time it's not how you act,but who you know.

i want to slip my cock into kate hudson.

totally. she has great boobies. I think that movie was good, but over rated. and cat...american imperialism includes accents.

J, See, so much for the anti-Semitic stereotype that JEWS aren't attractive people!! KATE HUDSON is a sweet JEWESS! Her momma (GOLDIE HAWN) is Jewish. BTW, to avoid any further confusion, I was referring to RUSSELL CROWE, not CAMERON CROWE!! A few more sweet Jewess names that come to mind: Natalie Portman (star wars episode I, the professional) Gina Gershon (showgirls, bound, face/off, can currently be seen on broadway in "cabaret") Cindy Margolis (also the most downloaded bikini model on the internet) Alicia Silverstone (clueless) Tina Louise (born backer, Gilligan's Island) Mili Avital (kissing a fool) Laura Prepon (that '70s show, half-Jewish)

who said jewish girls arent attractive? dope. are you one of those secretly self hating jews? you seem to subconsciously perptuate "sterotypes" that no one around here had mentioned.

perhaps he's a white pride skinhead trying to make everyone hate jews.

I wanna know how he became the "Chosen One".Who chose you,and just what criteria did they format this "choosing" with?

alicia silverstone, jewish or not, just isn't excessively attractive anymore. kate hudson, who is less jewish than her mother, is less attractive than her mom was back in the day. goldie hawn is still really pretty, I think.

i think goldie hawn is trying to hold on a little to strongly to something that is almost over for her she does look great sometimes, other times a little creepy. much like joan rivers. [we see natalie portman occasionally] i never heard anyone say that jewish people aren't attractive. will you just shut up. i would expect someone chosen by god to have more wisdom and tact. i think nate is right.

half jewish? sorry, i gotta bring it up again.

If the Ch-ch=-chosen one (won't be hearing that monday nights anymore, eh, Nate?) is indeed a clooked nazi skinhead (fuck off!), then a supposed objective of making us hate jews is backfiring, because he's just making folks hate him. If he is a jew, he isn't making jews look bad, just himself. Fuck the oscars, Julia Roberts over Bjork my ASS. Thank god I didn't watch them.

Pat & Heather, You have yet to live a full life, so what do the two of you really know!? BUBKESS! LOL! In the future, think before you SPEW! Log on to any WORLD WHITE WEB OF HATE website and read all of the lovely things that they have to say about JEWS! Whether it be physical or emotional. The stereotypical belief is that "Homeliness is indigenous to Jews, Blacks, and other minority of people." It's called NAZI PROPAGANDA! The same PROPAGANDA that GOEBBELS used in NAZI GERMANY! Heather & Pat, why are you cursing me!? I am Jewish, remember!? DOH! I'm on your side, remember!? DOUBLE DOH! Now go share a PROZAC and everything will be KOSHER, ok?eheheh Cyst, ALICIA has become somewhat zaftig!! She put on a few pounds, but still has a pleasant face. In the end, the best of both worlds!! A sweet piece of Jewish tuchis!heehehehe Czarina, I did not CHOOSE GOD, he CHOSE my PEOPLE!! He saw a wise and understanding people that have lived up to his high standards. Pls. re read the Mark Twain post, so you can understand why JEWS are GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE!!

bjork's dress was absolutely hideous. she really annoys me, i must confess.

Agatha, BJORK is one card short of a full deck!!eh One of the "REALITY TV SHOWS" featured a clip of BJORK, as she brutally attacks a FEMALE REPORTER in the streets!!! I was shocked when I first saw it!! You definitely do not want to ask BJORK the wrong question!ehe Then again, her irrational behavior is similar to the CYBER WACK JOBS on this very forum!eh The slightest fart is liable to set them off!!

I once knew this previously obese girl who managed to lose a couple of hundred pounds. But, even after she achieved "normal" proportions, she remained fixated on food. All she would think about was food - the taste and smell of it, the calories in it, the awards and penalties of it, and so on. You could never talk to her, without the conversation being steered towards something to do with food. Food defined who she was. The Chosen One reminds me of this girl. Judaism defines him. He cannot seem to make a posting without making a jewish reference. How did he become this way? Is he perhaps a former athiest who swallowed a couple of hundred pounds of religion he is now compelled to bulimiacly spew in our direction? If so, I think the only thing more insufferable than a born-again Christian is a born-again Jew.

the only minority hold i have is being a woman, and i get defensive about that sometimes. when people/society defines a person or group of people by just one of their aspects people pick it up and carry it. i see it all of the time, and it annoys me. people playing the race card when I don't see it as applicable. however, i try to ask myself why are they so defensive. More than likely, there has been an experience that warrants being defensive. raging against the race card or other's defensiveness toward their minority status is another example of white america and looking only through our middle-class,white, american lens because it is too difficult to try and see why others might be the way they are.

you're an idiot chosen one. you speak with a flippant tongue that makes absolutely no god damn sense what so ever. I'm "curising" you because you're an ass. I don't care if you are a jew, black, indian or whatever. You're an ANNOYING LOL!!! prick. HAHAHAHA LOL! Didn't bjork represent PETA at one time? I mean people are entitled to change their mind but still... Im so sick of "alternative" teen heros. I haven listened to her music since the sugarcubes.

bjork's music is wonderful. women are the majority.

but their rights are in the minority. "army of me", from the album "post" was in the movie "tank girl". gawd, i love that part, it's so funny, and then there's one of my favorite songs besides. bjork reminds me of a pixie.

ohhhh pez.....arent you in for it.

i like to watch christina ricci bounce around in buffalo '66. mmmm... jiggling jews.

women run society, pez. how are their rights a minority? 1) there is no evidence of salary differences and yet "common wisdom" indicates that women make 67 cents on the dollar. 2) our speech is regularly restricted by what "offends" women. 3) under the guise of "equal rights" we've moved from a merit based society to a "make sure everyone is happy" society. 4) women have 100% of reproductive rights. Men have none. 5) custody of children is grossly and unfairly in favor of the mother. 6) any woman can invent a story of rape or molestation and irrecoverably ruin the life of a man. name one unique negative sociatal aspect of being a woman. one way in which womens' rights are infringed upon.

uh-oh. nate's being oppressed again. HE JUST WANTS HIS LIFE BACK!!!!!

i warned her.

i'm done being oppressed. i'm just annoyed. i've been hearing about the oppression of women all my life. it's time to fish or cut bait. i want some evidence.

"mommy? why does everybody have a bomb?" -prince i guess that's the point. everybody's pissed off for their own reasons. in the end, it doesn't much matter whether you believe those reasons are well-grounded or completely subratrional-- because that's all a matter of perspective. "i didn't give a fuck cuz he didn't give a fuck! (that's what happens when yo' blind with anger!)" -the goats good luck trying to use logic to resolve all the social friction in this godforsaken country. me? i'm gonna buy a few kegs of beer and invite all my friends over so we can have our own private race war. feel free to drop by.

that sounds like a gas. i'll bring the "chemical warfare".

I agree with nate. women have 100% reproductive rights, but in most american counties (and in some whole states), there is no abortion access at all. many states have restrictive abortion laws. and for that I blame the voters, most of whom are women. we can't expect men to care much about abortion laws (they'll never have to consider undergoing that surgery or swallowing that pill), so women need to try all the harder to elect the right people. if no woman voted for george bush, then we wouldn't be taking backwards steps on environmental policy (my god, is someone keeping track?) nearly every single day. regardless of whether there really is a greenhouse effect, what a real cost-benefit analysis of nuclear power would look like, etc., I don't see that it's good governmental policy to destroy our long-term natural resources (old-growth forests, mineral-filled hills) in order to make a very few very wealthy people even richer and keep a very few workers (lumberjacks, miners) in their current jobs. I mean, why not go ahead and do a little to try to protect endangered species and preserve a few ancient forests -- what the hell? isn't it the least we can do at this point? what makes the interests of boise cascade execs and shareholders so much more important than those of the rest of us, who would like to see a what very little is left of american wilderness preserved? from today's nyt, an article about the resignation of the forest chief because bush says he wants to mine and pave what little we have left: Mr. Dombeck's announcement came three days before a federal court in Idaho is scheduled to hear the first of several legal challenges to the road rule, which was made final in January, during President Bill Clinton's last week in office. In advance of the hearing, the new administration has chosen not to offer a substantive defense of the rule, and it has postponed its effective date for 60 days, until May 12, to allow further review. The tactics have prompted speculation that the new administration might work with the plaintiffs, which include the State of Idaho and Boise Cascade, the timber company, to limit the effect of the rules, which would apply to nearly a third of national forest lands. In his resignation letter, Mr. Dombeck warned against such a course. "Doing so," he wrote, "would undermine the most extensive multi year environmental analysis in history, a process that included over 600 public meetings and generated 1.6 million comments, the overwhelming majority of which supported protecting roadless areas."

I hope all those year 2000 nader supporters are proud of themselves. bush should name every new forest service logging road after one of them!

i've been ranty for far too long. i'll stop ranting about women's rights, because i don't want to sound like the "chosen one". arse.

Nate, you are quite incorrect that there is no evidence of salary difference between the sexes. It's well documented. This seems like a reasonable analysis: http://www.cnie.org/nle/econ-65.html

bjork is an alien. brilliance beyond this world. and she looks like one too.

Does Bjork make .67 on the krona compared to her male pop counterparts?

my wife did earn considerably less than her male counterparts with the japanese company. but i think most of nate's other points are valid. don't puss out pez, we know the difference between you and that other creep. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

if women are upset that female-dominated fields are undervalued, then they should pursue careers in male-dominated fields. I believe that at my alma mater, the university of washington, female students were actually given preference in entrance to the engineering and computer science programs. this fall there will be more women than men entering law school. if women don't like that there isn't enough pay in childcare, nursing, teaching, retail, hairdressing, housecleaning, administration, etc., then they should look for new jobs. isn't it really that simple? it's not like colleges aren't letting women in. jesus.

if companies are paying women less than their male counterparts, then I think the women should up and leave. eventually those companies will suffer for it. don't you think?

back when i had to interview candidates for positions in the tech-support sweatshop i used to manage, i noticed that women almost never negotiated for higher salaries. i'd say that at least 2/3 of the male candidates tried to milk the position for all it was worth. the people who got the full buck were the ones who haggled for it.

that's interesting and sad and totally believable.

I earn more than most of the men I work with. They make me buy them beers. Yesterday I took a whip into work, normally I take muffins. I'm not in the mood to fight because I'm going to Hong Kong in six hours. Actually, the whole men vs women thing seems pretty tired to me. I can really only care about when I've had too much to drink and feel like bullshitting. I have to save my bullshitting energy for this trip.

Cat, i beg to differ. First, logic: if an employer could get away with hiring a woman at 72-77 cents on the dollar, why would the employer hire a man? Second, statistics: These figures come from the Statistical Abstract of the US, 1996. The abstract from 2000 is out, but i have the figures for the 1996 extracted and not the time(at the moment) to dig out the figures from the 2000 document. 1) Full time males earn $32,682 per year. Full time females earn $24,454 per year. 25 cents per dollar less than males. 2) Full time males work 2213 hours per year. Full time females work 1796 hours per year. Compute: Males average $14.76/hr. Females average $13.62/hr. 8 cents per dollar less tan males. 3) 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year is 2000 hours. This means men are working 213 hours of overtime, on average, which pays 1.5. Adjusted 213 overtime hours becomes 319.5 standard hours. this brings the male average to $14.09 per hour and the gap to 3.33 cents per male dollar. which isn't even signifigant,statistically.

hey, nate, I'm still deciding whether I think there should be a wealth tax. one reason employers might prefer to hire men is that they're unlikely to take long maternity leaves. um, does anyone have an opinion about this: a 62 year old man had his thyroid out at 55. he's on medication and under decent supervision. is it likely that nonetheless he would go through periods of mental imbalance? would he likely suffer from hyperthyroidism? what if you threw moderate to heavy drinking into the mix? if this man were your senator, would you think the public should know about his missing thyroid? what if he were your president?

Beg more. Thank you.

leave she did cyst. now she's getting the shaft from a hong kong textile factory. her whole winter sweater line is fucked, the line she designed for Earl Jeans is fucked.....this whole entrepreneurial thing may be fucked. cat...are you bringing that whip with you? if so, do you mind making a stop?

"I can really only care about when I've had too much to drink and feel like bullshitting. " then next time you find yourself on my coast i'll buy the beers.

does that go for sorabjites already on your coast as well?

absolutely. i've been thinking it's about time i met some sorabjiites face to face.

or ass to ass, as the case may be.

sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

hey nate, when/if cyst comes to LA, why don't you make your way....see her bf's band....and I'll show you the not-so-ass-end of town..as opposed to Torrence where you were held up last time. im pretty I won't show you my ass

the pretty never do.

that worked beautifully.

yeah, i might do that. when is it going down?

June i think...cyst can give you more details.

I'm pretty sure they'll be playing l.a. on friday, june 15. I'm hoping to get a definitive answer on this soon, because I want to buy plane tickets. also, I'm definitely going to be in the bay area over memorial day weekend, but I'm more just along for the ride -- someone's wedding in napa valley and staying with people I don't know in san francisco. I'd like to invite you to come out for the margarita drinking that will get done, nate, but what if you turn out to be weird? you've already gotten the lowdown on me from your former roommate.

you going to be around over memorial day weekend, nate? I should see if I can get leave from the group for a while so we can get drinks. even if you're weird.

uhm, maybe? my calendar usually doesn't extend so far. send me an email. let me know where you'll be when you can sneak out.

perhaps in general women are reluctant to negotiate salaries because they have a more difficult time finding jobs, need the job more than their male counterparts, and/or have fewer opportunities in general.

do you believe that? i mean, it could be any of those reasons, or the preception of any of those reasons..

i'm mustering the energy to respond to nate. tomorrow, i will tell you a story.

perhaps it is my location... or perhaps it is because i live the life of a woman/girl... but nate, i don't find your statements to be all that true. just a few particular ones: "our speech is regularly restricted by what "offends" women." *i had a boss during high school who looked at me, then my chest, and then me again before he told me how big he thought my breasts had gotten. pretty offensive, and definately restricted but it didn't make much of a difference to him. he held my job in the balance and i was a lowly teenaged girl who lived in a rural town where jobs were scarce. "custody of children is grossly and unfairly in favor of the mother." and how women benefit from this! women get to single handedly raise their children. of course, i'm looking at it through my lens, different from yours, but most of the single mothers I know have a lot of trouble getting the father's of the children to even visit the children let alone help support them. i see a lot of men wanting nothing to do with the children and the women left holding the bag because the baby came out of her. "any woman can invent a story of rape or molestation and irrecoverably ruin the life of a man." sadly, this is rarely the case. a lot of men rape women (or maybe you would prefer, "tell a story")and society views it as the woman asking for it. i am an advocate for women who are sexually assaulted and nearly all of the women I have dealt with in the past year and a half have been held accountable to a much higher level than the men because they "asked for it." and it is fair, but upsetting... that often times men are accused and people don't care because it was unfounded (to be prove rape is rather difficult because the laws are very strict and have an unrealistic view of how rape is). in my case, my mother's second husband was accused of molesting his daughters. it was unfounded. my mother married him, and told me that he had been accused and that it wouldn't work for me. "if you ever say those things about him, i won't believe you." i did say those things, but he did fuck with me. she didn't believe me. his life wasn't ruined. he got off. unfounded. whose life was ruined? "name one unique negative sociatal aspect of being a woman. one way in which womens' rights are infringed upon." so... it isn't blatant discrimination... that makes it okay? there are rules against things, but that doesn't make us more powerful. we're being ungrateful. look what you have woman. you are no minority, you are the majority. can't complain. keep your mouth shut and take what you get. i'm empowered.

i'll have to admit, that for most of my life, men have scared me. my dad, male teachers, just because of a dumb neighbor kid across the street. being female can seem like a definate chore at times. menustration and underwire. but i can pull off an innocent act at times that can get me off the hook. what i don't like is the additudes of some men, particularly when i'm working. just because i'm wearing a tightish shirt and i work in a service department doesn't mean that i want me breasts to be ogled. yes, i know they're there. i don't need your looks to tell me. it's not like i stare at mens crotches.

you lack of understanding of male sexuality pez makes those things annoying. What you speak of is not attitude its inate. Sometimes you just can't help it. I've conditioned myself to NOT look, but sometimes my eyes just go there and thats when my conditioning sets in diverts my eyes elsewhere. Im a pretty intelligent, respectable, decent guy, hell Im even married to a very respectable and intelligent, feminist and women, but i would be a liar if i said my eyes don't roam female bodies from time to time, on the street in the subway at the grocery store. Every Romeo you have ever known does, every guy on this board does it, and would be a liar to say they didn't. Some are just better at being discreet about it. Im not denying it can be annoying but it's not going to go away. Why not look at mens crotches and bums? Sarah Im not sure i could agree with any of those. Woman have harder time finding jobs, need the jobs more or have fewer opportunities.... There are so many forces at work here, I don't know how anyone could make any of those statements stick. amanda, the custody issue... "and how women benefit from this! women get to single handedly raise their children. of course, i'm looking at it through my lens, different from yours, but most of the single mothers I know have a lot of trouble getting the father's of the children to even visit the children let alone help support them. i see a lot of men wanting nothing to do with the children and the women left holding the bag because the baby came out of her." you speak as if women have their children thwarted on them. women fight for custody, men fight for custody, women win disproportionately. Period. deadbeat dads, visitation and all the side effects are irrelavent. We are speaking of a bias in our legal system not the other circumstances. Im not sure anyone said keep your mouth shut. As a majority, in sheer numbers, you have every opportunity to make the changes. For the last 10 or 20 years women and girls in general get the better end of education and are making better grades. While more boys are conflicted with what it means to be a boy, growing up in fatherless households, lacking discipline and realisitic idols. I can't begin to get into the all the sexual identity conflicts the media imposes. you know being male can be a chore too...when a noise is heard in the middle of the night guess who gets out of bed to go face the monster or potential ? Guess who's changing the tires when the go flat? Guess who nearly got frost bitten putting the chains on, while someone stayed warm and cozy in the car? Im not trying to compare these to your period and the physical discomforts that come with it....but you know...i don't think women carry anymore burdens in society than men do.

We've argued this so many times. Let's try something different. Why not try as hard to understand everyone else's views as you've previously tried to make them understand yours. It'll be fun...

i don't mind if they look, but if they turn their head to keep looking, that bugs me. whatever. it always happens at work. i'm often p.o. at work anyway, because some people think they can schedule me to work in a different department and not tell me until the day of. or an hour after i'm supposed to be there. what about single mothers who have nobody else to get up when things go bump in the night? what about the double standards we have about the roles men and women are supposed to hold? "boys will be boys." what about the constant assault by beauty magazines over inches and colors, the constant need to reevaluate sense of style for the sake of fitting in? it's pretty stupid.

well jeeeze what about single women EVERY where that hear a bump in the night? Thats not really the point. who buys beauty magazines? who publishes beauty magazines? who is perpetuating those standards? men or women? most men I know do not care about boob size, the shade of your lipstick or the perfume you wear nor would they advocate the women in their life go alter their bodies in such manners. I don't exaclty know what my role is...in terms of being male. Do you, in being female? The top 5 executives at women.com (Marie Claire, Cosmo) are women, the one male is the VP of international sales. Unforutunately the mastheads for these magazines and others arent readily available, as many publishers have different divisions for their internet publications. However, go down to the newsstand, and pick any beauty mag, and look at the masthead, see how many women are in charge of editorial matters. You can't blame men for these issues anymore. it's just like cyst said, if you are being underpaid in a particular job stop blaming the "male establishment" and get up and leave The desire to fit in affects everyone, not just women.

men will always ogle women. women need to learn to live with it. wear baggier clothes, stop wearing makeup, get a dyke haircut -- you'll get ogled less. if getting ogled bothers you, then you're the one who needs to change. get over it or never leave the house! I mean, what choice is there? pez, you should try pretending that you don't give a shit which dumb-ass mervyn's shoppers try to stare you down. I think if you pretend you don't care, then eventually you just won't care anymore. men are like dogs (sorry, nate) -- they can sense fear. act like you can hold your own and they'll be less likely to fuck with you -- I PROMISE. tall chicks have an advantage here. use it!

Woof, woof, woof.

"men are like dogs (sorry, nate) -- they can sense fear." What bullshit. Maybe it's me but im really sick of the "men are like pigs, men are like dogs" crap. What an insult. Can you not sense fear in people cyst? I mean the signs are often overt? I'd like to give you credit as an intelligent human that you can also sense fear in people....it's how you use it that makes the difference.

maybe its because im married and have no other intent other than observation but my ogles are quick, discreet and are not based on perceived fear or how a woman carries herself. Im a non discriminating ogler. Perhaps thats not an ogle if its quick and discreet...

its worth mentioning that as I typed that last post...on comes the Stooge's "And Now I Wanna Be Your Dog" funny how shit works like that from time to time.

yes, you're right, women can sense fear as well. men are like dogs, and women are like bitches, and there's nothing new under the sun. all I'm saying is that some men are going to prey on some women always. all women who want to avoid being targeted should take action. if you don't act like a victim, you're less likely to be one. I know this in my heart to be true. I can tell which people will just go along with things for fear of making a fuss. I think women who act that way are more likely to be date raped. I remember the one christmas season when I worked as a clerk in a mall, a couple of guys asked me if they could pick me up when the store closed so I could be in their porno movie. which is about as explicitly sexually threatening as contact with strangers in a store can get. I totally laughed and brushed them off ("and you guys are going to be the stars, um, sorry, I'm supposed to watch tv tonight, see ya!" or whatever) and moved on to the next customer, and I never saw them again. guys who do heavy ogling are just dumb assholes and don't deserve getting worried about. if you act scared or overly polite, you'll just be all the more alluring to con artists, stalkers, and rapists.

i am wonderfully completely hysterically glad that i'm a girl. i am also just as glad that there are boys.

that's funny... i wasn't offended.

well, I know how those dumb-old-dad commercials get you all riled up.

nate, if you don't discuss a specific job with a specific salary, there is no point. above age 50 right now there are more men that make more money, there is no way to statistically group everyone and come to any conclusion. since when did money become everything anyway?

i don't know what to think anymore. ps: i don't work for mervyn's anymore. i quit before i began posting here. i was guilty of ogling men there, because men shopping there that are close to my age were rare. it was mostly women, shopping for their husbands that wouldn't go. fred meyers is a whole different game.

no cyst, everything else you said about playng the victim and what not...i agree with. i do admit to being a little sensitive to the term "dog" or "pig". waffle hang up #117.

oink, oink. I'm probably going to buy my first new car this weekend. I'm probably going to get a toyota echo. I'll be as manly as possible. and I'm reading this first: http://www.fool.com/car/Step7Car.htm

and NOW a song comes on...this 80s new wave punk song obviously entitled "Boys will be Boys" wtf? *looks around for hidden camera*

Cyst- "men will always ogle women. women need to learn to live with it. wear baggier clothes, stop wearing makeup, get a dyke haircut -- you'll get ogled less. if getting ogled bothers you, then you're the one who needs to change. get over it or never leave the house! I mean, what choice is there?" so women are supposed to be different because men can't help but stare at them. women aren't aloud to feel good about the way they look unless they want to be harrassed. real good logic cyst. i sincerely hope that you were just kidding and corrected yourself later in the post because you hold my "high fucking bastard award" for me today.

Amanda,your too young to be that bitter.

amanda - it is in the physiology of a man to want to look at breasts. it is in the physiology of a woman to grow them. both are hormonal. both contribute equally to the ogle factor. why is it ok for you to criticize the male hormone, but it is not OK for anyone to crticize the female?

Men who ogle are ogres!

first of all, it's not like we women have an on/off switch so we can decide whether or not we want breasts...they just seem to "grow" on us.

you're implying men have an on/off switch for their sexuality? i mean, really. we're dogs, you know.

Me too,Debbie Paulson's mom said so,dogs are loyal.

Doesn't anyone care about what's in my pants?

I'm not ashamed to admit that I find it rather flattering when I'm ogled.Not a creepy kind of ogle,but just a nice,eye catching,double-take kind of ogle. And I'm also an admitted ogler of men.But I do try to be discreet,and usually wear sunglasses,when I partake of ogling activities.Nothing like the tennis courts in spring,eh J?

There's a difference is someone having a discreet look and a distinct ogle. I felt positively raped in Saudi Arabia, thanks to some overly overt eye contact. Italian men are only a fraction less obvious. However, women shouldn't have to hide under sackcloth. Breasts are just mammary glands, you know. And no, all men are not dogs, but some sure do behave like they're in heat. p.s. Amanda, I love the way you fight the good fight. You remind me of days when I had more flame and less burn scars.

Oh and Nate, some of your points about men's rights are totally valid. However, women have only had some degree of equality for 15 years, while white males have been dominant for at least the last 200. You'll just have to excuse us if we overstep the boundaries every so often. Power is heady thing. You guys have taken a few crusades and World wars to come to terms with it, so give us a decade or two and we'll be as fair and equitable as you.

no such thing as fair when it comes to power. it also really can't be given, it has to be taken. the subjects and objects are interchangeable, it's the verbs that matter. c'mon coffee - kick in.

really, cat. it wasn't the men who took crusades and world wars, it was white folk. the women just sat back and let the men do the dying. besides, i was born in 1974. i wasn't a part of these wars. pretty people are more succesfull than ugly. let's pick on the pretty people.

what, and eliminate my only advantage?

amanda....when you want to feel good about the way you dress, do your hair or do you make up.....do you do it because it makes you feel good to a)get the attention of men or b) make other women think "damn she looks better than me, im inferior"? when i dress acertain way, and I feel good about the way i have made myself, its because I think I will get the attention of others...otherwise whats the point unless you walk around all day with a mirror? Czarina, thats because you have a little more experience under your belt than pez and (seemingly) amanda...and been able to determine whats important and what isnt. You're naive pez. Cat my wife agrees with you about italian men, and so does a good girl friend from Milan. You know in some parts of Florida Cat, I've seen some women behave like their are in heat too...especially after a suitcase of Busch beer out of the back of a the pick'em'up truck. Cat holding us males who were not even born 30 years ago responsible for the past 200 hundred years is a bunch of poo, but you're still my favorite saucy aussie. And speakin of Poo....Cyst..I shared your Nadar comment above with angry sam last night over Anchor Steam and "soul" food..(fucking California fusion) this... "I hope all those year 2000 nader supporters are proud of themselves. bush should name every new forest service logging road after one of them!" I thought it funny when I read it, but also shortsided. Angry Sam and Nico both voted for Nadar and well I wanted to provoke him (there were some yuppies that had pulled in with their SUVs and nothing like Angry Sam with his baritone voice 10 decibles higher than normal to make their meal uneasy) Nader had nothing to do with the fact that Bush is in office. Bush is in office because Gore lost..period! He lost 2 key states. AR and TN. He should have had TN in the back of his hand. His family ruled TN politics for years. Every major politician in a presidential campaign carries the state they are from. Also, Clinton should have got out and campaigned in AR. Despite his controversy, the man still had charisma that would make you give your last bitch boot to him for a donation. But Gore wanted to "be his own man" and Bush was just salivating at the opportunity to lambast Gore and Clinton together. If Gore had taken those 2 states, states he should have won...like Bush won FL and TX, Gore would have been president. Nadar had nothing to do with it. But your statements are still funny. In the states that Nadar had a stronghold, like CA, OR and WA...Nadar has virtually no effect, except maybe in OR. TN = 11 votes AR = 6 FL= 25 before FL as it stood Gore 260 Bush 246 minus TN and AR from Bush and add to Gore Gore 277 Bush 229 plus FL for Bush 255 So, you know, don't blame the Nadar-ites....at least they stuck to their principles. I sold mine out of fear for Bush...and Im not happy about that...and we still have Bush for president. Angry Sam and I talked about taking a leave of absence...and marching to Sacramento with a sign each, one word... "Liars" over this power crisis crap. You know though...we agreed that this power thing effects EVERYONE>>> and that hopefully will spark new activism.... Long before the election...if Bush was elected I hoped that he would be come a pinnacle for all causes...and it's looking like he will. He's pissing off amy many people.

It's kind of like when Heather has a rum and coke and then wants to go out,I tell her to be careful,she tells me she's not like me,she doesn't drink to get drunk,I then say then whats the point?

I agree with whomever about the Italian men, too. Like I was just telling someone, there's a famous photograph taken in the 1950s of an American girl walking past a bunch of Italian men in Milan. They've all got leers on their faces, and her face has a look of anguish that rivals Waterhouse's Lady of Shalott. I was last in Italy 2 years ago, and boy, it hasn't changed, and I'm no babe. Let me see if I can find that picture on the net somewhere. It's a classic. Other than that, I'm Switzerland.

patrick. the number of votes nader got in florida is much, much greater than the difference between that state's official vote totals for gore and bush. if nader hadn't run/if people hadn't voted for him, gore would have won the election. "Exit polls by the Associated Press showed half of Nader's supporters would have voted for Gore in a two-way race, and 30 percent wouldn't have cast ballots at all. Nader pulled 95,000 votes in Florida, for 2 percent of the vote." http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0045/elect1.shtml wasn't the final official vote spread like 537 votes or something? less than a thousand. and that's just florida. I think in several states nader got a lot more votes than the spread between the top two candidates. nader cost gore the election. every time bush repeals a clinton/gore environmental policy, you can thank the nader supporters. the world would be a better place if more idealists would be just a little pragmatic just once in a while. what was the point? did they think nader was going to win? idiots.

yeah, democracy is shitty! "if nader hadn't run/if people hadn't voted for him, gore would have won the election. " that assumes that the people who voted for nader would have voted for gore. i would assume that most of those people, when faced with a narrow choice of bore or gush, would have just not voted. you might as well argue that gore ruined the election for nader. he was sure to win if gore hadn't fucked things up.

to spend so much time and concentrate the blame on the florida situation is moot. the election on the whole...Gore should have won those key states...and whatever happened in Florida wouldnt have mattered. .Gore's shortcomings add up to more what Nader than what Nader "took". Like i said...voter integrity is something I wished I would have practiced. To say that one shouldn't vote for Nader because he has no chance of winning is really a dumb thing to say, im really surprised you say that. Nader did not cost Gore the election, the situation in Florida was bugged from the get go. Jeb and his good ole boy gang had it set in Florida. Bush should have won FL and TX, as Gore should have won AR and TN. I know realize the futility of the FL situation...and to step back and look at the whole damn election. You should do the same. everytime Bush repeals a Clinton policy, I can thank Gore for not using his assets and not winning the god damn election. He should have been able to win it without FL. Clinton won twice with Perot in the way, Gore should have been able to do it with Nader

"that assumes that the people who voted for nader would have voted for gore. i would assume that most of those people, when faced with a narrow choice of bore or gush, would have just not voted." "Exit polls by the Associated Press showed half of Nader's supporters would have voted for Gore in a two-way race, and 30 percent wouldn't have cast ballots at all. Nader pulled 95,000 votes in Florida, for 2 percent of the vote." http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0045/elect1.shtml

agatha, what's your e-mail address?

you know them liberals. shifty. always given false information at the exit polls.

and, anyway, I'm not complaining about our form of democratic system, just that some fellow environmentalists didn't come up with the same answers I did when they did their presidential election cost-benefit analyses. and I don't know what the fuck all you chesty sluts are talking about. if you don't like that italian men ogle women, then don't go to italy! don't like it when american men's eyes linger on your torsos, then cover up those titties. or stay home. or join a convent. waah, waah, waah. looking ain't touching, you know. (though many italians may also do that.) go ahead and dream about your ideal little neutered world in which all the easily pussy-whipped men pretend that they have no preference between big-titted and flat-chested, lithe or pudgy, clear-skinned or pimply-faced, as long as everyone communicates well or whatever the fuck. I guess that's fine as long as the rest of us can enjoy the real world, in which people are free to give and get attention as we please while ignoring the gawkers and cat-callers.

WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

im lookin forward to my weekly dose of hockey tomorrow.... Kings vs. Avalanche. i wish mapleleaf was still around so i could jive with him about hockey.

patrick - if you knew me very well, you would laugh a gut-aching laugh at your question of why i want to look nice. i get very VERY uncomfortable when men "ogle" me or even look at or notice me. i also have an inferiority complex that is so intense that downward comparisons do no good. sick, but i do much of what cyst suggested and it irritates me that i've punished myself for the actions of others. i'm 21, and i rarely visit bars and clubs because of the Meat-Market Mentality. Can I not go out and drink and have fun without being ogled and harrassed? it pisses me off. not that it should warrant it, but i don't even wear clothes that "invite." Because I have vagina and breasts, I am game to be fucked with because of someone's uncontrollable nature. well... i don't feel much control over wanting to kick the bastard's ass who is staring at me, but somehow I do. in following cyst's logic, it is okay to beat the shit out of someone as long as it is "my nature," and it is their fault for not staying at home and out of the way of viscious bitches like me. i finally see.

oh yeah!!! i'm purchasing my one-way plane ticket to NYC right now. very exciting.

hey, I said it's OK to look but not to touch! if you are disturbed that men ogle you, that is your problem, not theirs. this problem is probably related to your self-described inferiority complex. damn, girl. you'll miss out on a lot of fun if you don't work that shit out. therapy? have you seen "faster, pussycat! kill! kill!"? I don't condone beating up oglers, but in the gas station scene tura satana teaches a lesson to all women not just about how to dress good and skanky but also how to deal with unwanted attention from icky guys. (just don't kill them all, like she did.)

being ogled is one thing, being verbally harrassed is another. its all what you make it. and as you state, you have issues. so do i butin this isntance they are preventing you from seeing this rationally. but lets talk about ogling. Not harrassment, but admiring looks, glances and stares. i know my wife is flattered by a creative, one-shot cat call in passing, or a an elongated glance by a passer by...it's the guys that stop by her and pull up to the curb and ask her if she needs a lift or follows her and persistantly asks for her number or what have you that is troubling. She's completely capable of handeling it herself, its also a reality of life. So yeah, you know, go join a convent or something. A stare, and admiring glance or an ogle is a part of courtship. And almost all women i know like the attention. But most of the women I know aren't naive 21 year olds either. They are strong, self-confident, mature women in touch with reality. Besides, this meat market mentality you speak of...you're only 21, you haven't been out there long enough to know anything. You know how I met my wife....it started with a stare, an intentive stare, i made she she caught my eye, to ensure she knew i was admiring her. She reciprocated. Then a mutual friend introduced us, and then later that evening at her apartment, knowing her for only a few hours, when the mutual friend was in the bathroom...i kissed her. Seemingly , unwarranted, uninvited, but well received. Guys have to start somewhere, and how a stare is received can often make a break a guys drive to come up and talk to you. If you respond favorably, chances are you won't blow him off when he comes up to speak with you. It's a mechanism to help widdle down the chance rejection. But you probably don't much about rejection. You know using your eyes as a form of expression, to tell a woman you think she's attractive, interesting looking and so on is hardly something negative, actually quite sexy. If you find the guy staring repulsive, ignore him. Most intelligent men won't take long to get the idea. Hell you can even roll the eye...and see how quickly he stops looking. The majority of guys out there have nothing but honest intentions when they admire with their eyes. Maybe your're hanging around the wrong places...like the frat house or biker bar on the edge of town when they aren't so formal. You're immature.

Ah, see, Italian men *do* touch. They also follow you around in cars, while drunk, while leaning out the windows speaking pig English and making kissing sounds. When I went to Italy during high school with friends my age, I had to hit an old man who grabbed my ass as I walked past him. I hadn't even noticed him until I felt something GRAB my ASS. Shit. He could have looked all he wanted. A man and a woman are screaming at each other on my patio. "Goddammit motherfucker!" she keeps shrieking. "Goddammit motherfucker!"

Last summer I decided to lose alot of weight. I was at about 275lb. Now I'm at 237lb and should hit 225-220 by mid summer. Back then I thought that if and when women approached me or flirted with me after my weight loss I'd be pissed off and bitter. In the last month or so it's started happening: a flirt here, a glance there, and even some outright stares. Am I bitter? Fuck no! I love it! I'm not a different person, intellectually. I still don't like the meat market aspect of dating, the whole "check 'em out" thing. I find the prospect of being judged simply based on arbitrary and capricious social standards to be totally fucked up. So I would never date someone where appearance was the number one attraction, or even second or third. So what's changed? Hormones, most likely. Along with my weight loss and muscle gain (as a cause, an effect, or both) my hormones have shot through the roof. I don't have the time to feel angry or bitter when I get attention because by the time my brain gets involved it's way too late. Waaaaay too late... So, what's the moral of the story? Maybe this: if you want to feel less negative about being ogled, get more exercize, get out in the sun, and take ginseng daily. Maybe that's not it. Dunno. Take from it what you will!

mock them. or yell "shut up motherfuckers, shut up motherfuckers" everymorning, we have various assholes pull up and honk their horns...like at 6 am...there is a huge complex next to mine, and they are usually carpoolers picking each other up, but instead of getting out of the car to go call them on the call box they honk the god damn horn...repeatedly. This morning was exceptionally bad...first nico sticks her head out the window "hey its 6 in the morning asshole" 5 minutes later, still the horn goes off every 30 seconds, I go out on the balcony and from 3 stories up i yell "shut up asshole" and toss an empty plastic water bottle in front of the car....The prick honks again at the plastic bottle, just as I was ready to go downstairs and knock on the friggin window, take his plate number and give him a piece of my mind, my neighbor across the way (who looks like Stone Cold Steve Austin) comes out in his sweats..."hey man, cut the god damn horn out, your waking up the whole neighborhood, its 6 am!!!! Fine, Fine, then you get your ass out and go call them at the call box but stay off the horn dumbass!!" I told my neighbor "thanks" and then he said "i'll get this for you" and picks up my water bottle. "thanks again i say". some people are fucking so so so so stupid. Angelinos are more fogiving than NYCers. That guy wouldnt lasted 5 honks of the horn on any given quiet residential street in Queens, Brooklyn or what have you.

"American Girl in Italy," by Ruth Orkin I was wrong. It was in Florence, not Milan. Now they're running up and down the stairs in the building, doors are slamming, and a little girl is crying. God damn. I work with a man who comes into the office about once every two month and shares my corner with me. He's really funny, and everyone likes him, and he teases the hell out of me. Tells me how cute I am, sings songs to me, etc. And he's funny, so I tease him back (in a feigned mean way). But I can tell you there's nothing flirtatious going on (as in sexually charged). If I were twelve, he'd probably act the same way. This is the kind of teasing I like.

i wish some chick would come up to me in a club, reach down my pants, and whack me off. i feel so violated that women don't do that.

He tells you how cute you are and sings songs to you... There's nothing sexual? Riiiiight... What songs does he sing? Barney's Greatest Hits? Happy Birthday? Jesus Loves Me?

No, it was a joke. And it was "You Are My Sunshine," but with different words. Aw, you had to be there. If you knew me and him, you'd see. Why ya gotta go ruining things?

You are my sunshine my only sunshine touch my penis and earn a quarter i've heard that song.

Shut up. You have such filthy minds, all of you.

Ahhhh, but you keep coming back to read, don't you? :-)

Yep! You know it. Write something else, Greek tragedy boy, but don't make it gross like Nate does, or I'll get mad.

Define "gross" I think Nate is as funny as a truckload of dead rats in a tampon factory.

This is not gross.

Holy shit, that is funny. Anything that comes in a truck load, deceased, and is associated somehow with naughty bits is goddamn hysterical. Here's my take on the whole male/female/LIFE dynamic/shitstorm: Everyone is an individual. Life will throw shit at you. You can either complain about the stains or wear a raincoat and move on. More specifically, if you don't like someone looking at you, well, perhaps you should change your attitude about it. Not legitimize it by turning it into a positive, necessarily, but transcend it. Pull the wool over your own eyes. I agree with Rhiannon about Italian men and their attitudes towards women. I may have told the story elsewhere on these boards about my school French trip and the Italian students who camped outside our hotel room door because they thought there was a party with drunk blonde American girls inside (no party, but there were drunk blond American Girls inside, who had to be carrie dback to their rooms and locked in for their safety). Does that suck? Yes. Cna you strive to rise above it? Also yes. Other notes on above conversation: Antigone-congrats, man, That Subway Jared kid is going to look like a punk next you. Rhiannon - You are a babe, and stop kidding yourself.

Thank you Antigone that was lovely

yes, italian men do touch. I thought it was well-known fact that mediterranean men pinch women's asses. if american women can't handle it, then they should stay away from those countries. they've got enough american tourists as it is, if you ask me. and when they do, it's ok to hit them. if they persist, then you should make a scene. I don't approve of random touching, but in some countries it's standard procedure. don't like it -- don't go! a couple years ago in paris some guy in a crowded bar put his hand up my skirt. as I recall, I took his hand, held it for a moment, then used my fingernails to inflict the kind of skin-damaging pinch usually used only by young kids on even younger siblings. (then I decided I wanted to stick my hand down his pants, and he pinched me back hard -- fair enough.) I hear in a lot of middle eastern arab countries, women must wear veils. american ladies who aren't up to it should just stay away.

I think Italian men are hot,trouble,but hot.

i've been the recipient of cat calls and stares from gay men and women. the women, I can only recall 2 instances, and thats enough to last a lifetime. Once in my car, at a stop light, eyes wandering i glanced to the car next to me, and this women blew me a kiss. the other time...i was walking down the street and two or three girls in a passing car yelled "we love you wahooooooo". I've had gay men give me that eye and say things like "helloooooo" while checking me out. I don't really mind....it's really no sweat off my back.

I've been back to Italy since then and have had no trouble. Maybe I was particularly hot that day. Right. On Saturday, in Philly, two teenaged boys stopped me on the street and told me I had a "fine ghetto booty." I said thank you, slapped the right cheek, and continued walking.

I went on a date with someone not so long ago and he told me he was attracted to me because I looked "fragile". Is that creepy or what? My male friends said he probably was just nervous and I shouldn't take any notice of it.

they aren't so bad in rome. i'm beginning to think that rome is not really very italian, just an italian shell. on looking in general- there are days when you get that look and you've just had enough. first to your eyes, then down, then up. then that expression. say what you will, but i have the biggest urge to crush their nose with my palm.

I had a woman look at me like that in the gym a few weeks ago. Damn if that didn't almost give me the wood.