I was doing my laundry and when I came back to advance my laundry, there was this old German guy there. I had just gone to buy conditioner (which is, inexplicably damnnear impossible to find in Mountain View) and he asked me what I had or something, and I said I had just gone to buy conditioner, which was very hard to get in Mountain View. Anyway, he started telling me this folk remedy for hair loss, and apparently, how to care for your hair...people in Northern California are always giving out folk remedies, nothing out of the ordinary there, it's just their way of saying hi. We were just chatting, and I asked him where he was from...b/c I thought he sounded like he was from Europe somewhere. (I was guessing Scandanavia) He said Germany. I said I used to work with this guy from Germany, and that the guy had been one of my favorite people in my department until he got laid off. (which is true...as a matter of fact, I had almost asked the guy out on his last day) He asked me where I worked...I told him... He said, suddenly, out of the blue "I was in the Hitler youth" I said, "Oh" Then I said, "I really don't know what to say to that" He said "Say that I didn't have any choice" I couldn't say anything to him. I believe everything is a choice...and I don't know if I could have said anything anyway, so I just kept my silence. He said "I saw Hitler's last speech... I was there..." He also said "My wife is Jewish...I care for her...I was in the Hitler youth and I cared for her" Somehow, I knew something was up...choice or no, before he said it...he had said earlier, when I was counting quarters to put in the dryer (I had broken a $5.00 bill for change) "Oh, you have a lot of money..you are rich" I said "No, I have enough for a load of laundry" (true, btw...I'm a bit broke this week) And after he asked where I worked, he asked if I were management (I'm not...I'm a goddamn secretary) I look very young...and I looked very disreputable (it being laundry day)...and I have very long hair...I do not look like management. He just assumed that, because I am Jewish (by heritage, if not by faith)that I was wealthy and powerful. I think he didn't want to think that, but the predjudices are there. And later, he started talking about mortality. And he said to me..."When your time comes to die, it won't matter where you are" From him, it just sounded like a threat to me. But I think, now, that perhaps he was dying, or just old and afraid of dying...and looking for absolution...and, even had I realized it, I'm not sure I could have given it to him. What do you say to someone who would have murdered you...choice or no choice....50 years ago. And why not. I'm not sure it's my place to offer him forgiveness anyway...my family was driven out of Eastern Europe by the pogroms long before the Holocaust began (My grandfather was the first child in my family born in the US). Of course, I don't know if I lost relatives in the Holocaust...the family fled the pogroms in Russia in disorder, and ran right into the teeth of the Red hunts. My mother didn't know her own last name, or meet any of the relatives in this country (all also living under assumed names) until her mid-twenties. So my family was pretty well scattered and I know the family history only 2 generations back and even that is sketchy...the legacy of McCarthyism makes people reluctant to talk...the only reason I know anything about why my mother's father was Jewish with a French name was that my mother woke us up in the middle of the night, babblingly drunk, and told us the whole story...I don't think she would have had the courage sober. Anyway, I don't know at all what to make of this situation...I was polite and everything...but I don't know what to make of this.

i'm drunk and pissed off and depressed, but... i don't see why you have to make anything out of it. it was just this interesting thing that happened that made you think about yourself and your family and your past. i find myself having some sympathy for the old german guy. he seemed sad and lost and alone - hitler youth or no. it'll annoy me when all the infomaniacs come on here with views on prejudice, nazism, racism, or whatever else. dehumanize everything into useless packets of right thinking and analysis. anyway, i liked that story.

I found myself wanting to have sympathy for him...but I was also afraid of him. And part of the thing that upset me was a lot of what I have been thinking about lately... This is one of those brief eras in which it is relatively safe to be Jewish... and anti-Semitic violence is on the rise again. Synagogues have been firebombed in my area. Some asshole shot a whole bunch of Orthodox Jews in New York. And so is Anti-Semitism. They are trying to make a (can't remember the name right now...feeling kind of shellshocked and it's late here and my Jewish heritage led to the Socialist part of my upbringing, but not the religious part...my parents resisted religion and when they joined a church, it was the Quaker meeting) a symbolic extension of the home in Palo Alto...to make it possible for the Orthodox Jewish community to do things like push wheelchairs and stuff on the Sabbath. People are resisting b/c they would have to give permission for people to tie pieces of string to poles on public land (no expense to the city) And they are talking about "Separation of Church and State" but they don't complain about the Christians closing off the streets every couple months for religious parades. And they say that the Orthodox community wants to erect religious symbols on public property...but the county is called San Mateo...and the county I live in is called Santa Clara. And even my neighbor's friend said something about somebody being the "Jews of Asia"...not only a racist comment, but the fact that likening a nationality (I forget which one, he had something nasty to say about everyone in Asia) And I have heard too many rants from people about Zionist conspiracies (Because there are so many Jews in banking and commerce(...which is because, in the Middle Ages and the Rennaissance, we were forbidden to own land, and it was commerce or starve) and one man said that he thought the US was supporting Israel because Israel is really in control of the US...(It's not, it's because the US is using Israel to keep the Middle East destabilized, and to have an excuse to intervene and maintain power there...because of oil...and once the US government gets another foothold in the area, they'll drop Israel like they dropped Iraq when Hussein stopped cooperating) Anyway, I am horrified by Israeli foreign policy...I think it's wrong and I think it's counterproductive. I think that the point of establishing a Jewish homeland was so that there would be a place where we would not have to live in fear. I don't think that we shouid drive more people out. I think that we need a place to live in peace...and displacing more people is not the way to do that. And I think that people who know what it is to be displaced should learn that it is wrong to displace others. And I wasn't afraid of this man in the laundromat...he was very old and frail and he was alone...no crowd of stupid young men, full of Benzedrine and rhetoric. Well, actually, I was afraid of him...I was afraid, I still am somewhat afraid, that his comment on mortality was somehow a threat...and that he does have some sort of followers who will kill me for a heritage I barely knew (it even crossed my mind that maybe..just maybe he could be linked to the firebombings) ...and the rational part of my brain says that it's absurd and cruel of me to think that...he was so grateful when I said "you too" when he said to have a nice day...and that he was only an old man looking for absolution because he knows he's going to die soon. But I don't know if I could give it to him. It's not fair...but it's true.

I'd better post before some drunk paranoid posts about how shitty it'll be when _other_ people voice their opinions... ... DOH! Anyway, it sounds like that guy was just so used to apologizing about his past that he was on autopilot. "Say that I didn't have any choice," he said. Sounds like he's used to explaining himself, so much so that he brings it up, just so he can apologize. And, sure it's your place to forgive. Why not? Anybody can forgive, and everybody should. So few people are into forgiveness these days, a little could go a long way.

maybe it's a question of whether or not it's your place to absolve him of his actions, whatever part he played in that atrocity. when i was in high school i shook the hand of a drunken ex-klan member who approached me in a PA bar to apologize for all the terrorism he brought onto blacks and "others" in his youth. part of me commended him for having the moral fortitude to evolve and recognize my humanity, but another part kept asking what he had done and why he was looking to a stranger to "confess" to. i don't regret shaking his hand. and i don't regret not telling him that "it's ok." because it isn't, and it's not my place to do so. he can go track down those people he terrorized and apologize to them. if it's not possible for him to do so, then he'll just have to die with it.

fuck you, antigone. i wrote that pretty much because the same exact thing happened to me once 6 years ago and i drove myself crazy examining and questioning it. i just knew i'd come back to this board and do it again. fuck you, antigone.

Lucy, I think, though you may feel confused and a little frightened, you head is on straight, every word I read of yours was clear and on targert as to how to deal with this situation. You can't bring him forgiveness or absolution, like swine, it's not your place, For all you know, this kook could have been derranged with alzheimers (spell?) and making this shit up........if not, I think the best assesment , like you said, he is old, fraile and afraid to die, he wants to wash his hand of "blood" that has plagued him for 50 years. There is a reason why he came to this country, to escape his past, he may proclaim his pride in his German history, and he may not, eitherway, he ain't in Germany anymore, and the reason seems clear. If you haven't seen it, there is a movie out that is very similar to your situation, as far as morality and ethics goes with this subject, it's called Apt Pupil, though on the whole it's a rather weak movie, it's worth the rental....maybe you could alieve some of your fright by talking with him more???/ maybe??? i dunno.....

I liked that movie, especially at the end when the old man takes his central line and blows air into it causing an air embolism and death. One could really do that. (for once a tidbit of accuracy)

Shalom - Such harsh words from a poster who'se name means "peace" in Hebrew. Sounds like you need to take a hint from your name and find some peace yourself. Swine - Forgiveness isn't saying "it's o.k." One of the definitions for the Hebrew word for forgiveness (nasa or nacah) is "to bear, carry, support, sustain, or endure." By forgiving someone you help carry the burden of their actions, recognizing that, despite what they've done, we're all human and we're all fallible. We're not that far apart. So, in a way, forgiveness involves regognition of the seriousness of the offender's acts. They're so serious that they can't make them right by themselves.

I'm probably never going to see this guy again...he was just an old guy doing his laundry, And I'm not sure I could forgive... I don't know what he did, and it shouldn't matter because it was one choice he made and the rest is chance, and I'm not sure it does matter. I'm not sure it's my place to forgive. I used to know a man in Baltimore who was a Holocaust survivor...he grew up in hiding in France and England. He was a friend of the family... the whole family was close to ours. How can I say that he forgives this man? How can I say that those people (a few of whom I know as well) whose families were decimated can understand his claim that he had no choice? How can I give him absolution on behalf of the dead? Especially when I don't even know about my own dead.

This is sort of on another note... I will say this, however, the experience was valuable, if terrifying and painful. (I never imagined I could be so frightened of someone so clearly helpless) I learned a lot about the nature and difficulty of forgiveness. And maybe I learned a little about the experience of being a minority and being stereotyped and being expected to deal with people's guilt issues, apologizing to me even as they make their unconscious assumptions about me. And I know better than to think that I have ever experienced anything but white privelege before this... no matter what I read, study, or believe. I am, in a way, glad (hmm...well, that's not exactly the word...it was not an easy thing to deal with) that I had the experience. Because I think I learned a little.

wow, pretty interesting. My maternal grandfather's family escaped the pogroms (he was a Lithuanian Jew). My maternal grandmother's family came over about the same time, Polish catholics. Here's a thought: Perhaps we are just symbols to other people. Not stereotypes, i don't like the word and it doesn't convey the meaning of my point. What the old German saw in Lucy was perhaps a symbol, a reflection of a past stained, and his redemption was an admission of complicity and the wrongness of it. He may have said he had no choice, but by saying so, he also may have been indicating that he wished he did. Perhaps it's similar with the ex-klansman and swine. All redemption must be personal, and whatever tools we can find to bring that about we must use. Logically, those tools must be symbolic, and can even be other people. Lucy is most likely as good a representative of Judaism as i am, but it didn't matter to that old man. he saw in Lucy a symbol of past wrongdoing and perhaps saw a chance to cleanse his soul just a little bit.

Can you forgive the person without forgiving the act?

the person and the act (for which you forgive him/her) are pretty much one in the same. i think. the point of forgiveness is not only (if at all) for the sake of others but for your own sake. it has to do with putting past wrongs behind you and moving on with you life. receiving forgiveness has to do with putting past sins behind you (assuming you deserve to) and moving on. anyway, that's the way i see it; and i've had some experience in having to be forgiving. i don't believe in a god, and i don't know what is going to happen to any of those people. and i don't worry shit about metaphysical absolution. or if they rise and sin again. or if my forgiveness means shit. it just keeps me from being consumed by it.

you people read too much into this. he's just an elderly gent making conversation...that's it. if all of you did away with religion, what a better place this would be. you know it and i know it.

I think Sem's point is quite clearly valid. That was what I was trying to say about the experience: That he saw the ethnicity before the person. It happens all the time, but it doesn't usually happen to me...and that was a valuable experience. And I think Cachpule is right about the act being something by which to judge a person. Action is the only thing that matters in judging a person...I do not have a problem with my former co-worker, who is older than I am, but definitely under 54. He did not choose to be born German any more than I chose to be born Jewish. Or with my current German co-workers (well, one of them is old enough, and he makes me a bit nervous now, and I feel terribly guilty about it.) The thing with the man in the laundromat is that he could have resisted...it would have been difficult for him, but he could have chosen to do that...and if enough people had stood up and resisted, it would not have happened. I normally would not expect such courage of someone as young as he probably was, but it was the survival of a race -- *my* race, that was at stake. And Pink Eye, one's former participation in genocide is not the sort of thing that comes up in casual conversation.

My uncle married a German woman that was in that group,she said they were forced to join,but her family hid a family,

I wonder how many young people would stand up and resist if it happened today. It seems like in America the majority of young people are so concerned with fitting in that we do silly assed things like spending $150 on tennis shoes when a $50 pair would be just fine. If we can't have the balls to say that's stupid, I don't care if you think I'm a geek, then would we really risk life and limb standing up against a facist genocidal government? I remember in basic training we did what we were told not because of the threat of physical harm, but because we wanted to fit in. The instructors used public humiliation to acheive their goals. I don't know if the old man you talk about was truely sorry but I think many of us could of done the same thing in the right political climate.

I don't know. I was raised by dissidents, so I kind of have difficulty seeing things from that perspective.

*

friendly grammar tip: "could have" or "would have" or "should have" instead of "could of" "should of" "would of" a common mistake since every one uses the contraction "'ve" which sounds like "of". pet peeve, no big deal.

boy, i'm glad you don't know how much i spent for these shoes.

I generally follow a rule of not paying more than $25 for shoes. of course, the right pair of shoes has yet to come along.

Oh shit! I wish I would of thought before I posted, Lord knows I could of and really should of.

One day back in elementary school we went on some field trip to the local Holocaust center. At the end of the trip we all gathered around while a survivour told us her story, showed us her number tattoo from the concentration camps. She was crying. Just listening to her was hell. On the way home on the school bus the teacher remarked about how lucky we were, that we would probably be one of the last generations on the planet to actually be able to meet people who were in that war. The girl behind me started on some rant about how she found it hard to see why the woman was crying, the ordeal being so long ago, after all, and she told the story to people every day. I spun around and slapped her. okay, well, I didn't, but I wish I had. I was 12. I think I might still slap her. One day when we're out together at the bar I might just do it anyway. Goddamnit. This is what we do. We forget. We make things less. Our granparents fought that war, but our children won't know. Just another dumb war movie on tv. Fuck, I can barely belive it was real. Not that I want to. So yes, it can happen again. We will let it. We're just that dumb and succeptable to mob rule. And next time there'll be nukes, too. my shoes cost $9. used army combats. i won't forget.

Right on!!

Wisper, I agree. We will let it. Just look what happened with the Yugoslavia deal. I personally didn't want to see us go to war but then again I couldn't believe the number of people who came out saying "it's none of our business". Heck it has happened many times in our lifetime. What was that thing a few years ago. I think in Africa, when one group attacked the other with knives and machetes killing more than were killed in Bosnia. USA did nothing. Maybe because they were black or maybe because they didn't have anything we wanted. My shoes $18 at kmart, 2.5 years old

you guys make me guilty for buying these damn shoes.

Allright 'fess up. What are they? How much?

they're florshiems. and that's all i'll say.

don't believe the hype. it's all a front. he dropped $14.99 at Payless for those vinyl shit kickers.

YOU GOT A PENNY I CAN BORROW

"you aint gettin' nada from us! not even a dolla from us!" always loved that song.

oh, sorry. read that wrong. "floorshines". that's the last time i go shoe shopping with you, swine. you going to tell the nice people about the red patent leather pumps you picked up for $9.99?

i was waiting until i picked up the matching hot pink pleather mini skirts we were going to wear to sorabjifest '99. now you fucked it all up and ruined the surprise. bitch.

I must have read too fast. I overlooked where how much your shoes cost has anything to do with Nazi's. Did they spend a lot of money on shoes? I own one pair of shoes. They're those black and white canvis thingys that you can wear with or without shoelaces. They cost ten bucks. I hate hate hate hate hate shoe shopping, and refuse to buy another pair until the ones I own have compleatly fallen apart.

I love shoes. I have too many. Some I will never wear again. Tragic heels from the 80's. Chewed gym shoes that I should throw out. My fav pair cost me $10 in a closing down sale. They are totally vampy and look great with a short skirt. My most expensive cost $180 and are still in style (four years later). However at the mo I love boots. Altho thats gotta be cause its winter here. Shoes Shoes Shoes... mmmm.

Where's here?

New Zealand

Moon Unit Zappa lives in New Zealand?

When did I say my last name was Zappa?

Remember my comment on rising anti-Semitic violence. Well, there was another incident today. And I heard on NPR that the goddamn neo-nazis are marching on Washington. I have always been strongly pro-gun-control. But the problem is that these fucks aren't. Most of the right-wing conspiracy nuts (who have always used red-baiting as an excuse for some sort of racism, but usually anti-Semitism, as in the case of my own grandparents) are charter members of the NRA And the problem is that the Holocaust was *not* the first pogrom, 60 years of near peace is an unusually long respite, they have been pretty frequent for 3000 years before that. And now we are among those being targeted by the violence of the nineties. So, after a lifetime of pacifism, the NRA has convinced another American to learn how to shoot and seriously consider buying a gun. If not quite in the way they expected.

it's fucked. how many more reasons/proof do they need to see that guns need not be sold to the public. They can't blame it on the media. Canda gets the same media as the US. Japan's media is vialoent as are other westernized countries and cultures. Yet our murder-via-gun rates are through the fuckin roof. None of those other countries (correct me if I am wrong) allow firearms for sale to the genreal public. HELLO!!! Ironically, between the recent shootings, an article in Detour I read today and a comment a friend made to the effect of, "all of these shootings, press etc. are a conspiracy by the left to mobile serious gun control" the issue has come to serious fucking light. However, if my friend was convinced, which I doubt, that theory would prove to be flawed.

One can only "forgive" on a personal level, if you were the one wronged. The concept of "nose avon" or "carrying sin" mentioned by Antigone, applies only to the Almighty who has the power to forgive those who change their ways and truly regret past actions. Humans do not have the capability to "absolve" others sins. (At least not by the Jewish tradition)

Now that is a way to bump an old thread!

Well, being an agnostic, I figure humans do have the capability to absolve. And you can forgive on a personal level, even if you were not the one wronged. And it doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the need to punish, especially when punishment would be counterproductive.

Does your definition also include letting go of the desire to punish those who have wronged you? I can let go of the need, but not the desire.

Desire is harder, but not necessary. Eliminating the desire is best for you. Actions are more important. And how you deal with the desire is important. Don't let it corrode you. You've got to let it go, and let go of any guilt you may have about wanting to punish.

I find that if I let my dog poop on their shoes, I get over it pretty quickly.

I mainly use my revenge fantasies to amuse myself while I'm running. I know that people usually get what they deserve, but in certain cases, I want to be around to see it.

i'm telling you. write the person's name on a piece of a paper, put it in a cup of water, and put the cup in the freezer. it's like a voodoo doll, only more passive aggressive.