evil meat


sorabji.com: The Stalking Post: evil meat
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By Scaramouch on Monday, August 2, 1999 - 03:02 pm:

    I had been living in the house for about a year and a section of the kitchen ceiling, just in front of the pantry, was water-damaged and sagging. Clete said he would fix it for me cheap. I had known him for a longish time because he was a friend of my boss. Clete is from Misssissippi, short, stocky, and swarthy and in his mid-70's had more energy than I ever had all through my 20's.

    He came to my house on a Saturday and had the roof looking good as new in no time. While we were settling on a fee, there was a scampering noise above the ceiling.

    "Whazzat?" Clete said. "Squarls?"

    I said yes; there had been squirrels in my attic since I moved in. At first it was annoying hearing them running around and gnawing on the wood, but after a while I got used to it and even kind of like it. I was alone in that house and it was nice to hear something else moving around.

    "You can't let them squarls live up there," Clete said. "Do no end of damage. Wait a minute."

    He went out to his truck, one of those patchwork jobs with a with a passenger door that's a different color from the from the hood, which is a diffent color from the bed of the truck. It was filled with all sorts of crap, and he pulled a frame box enclosed with chicken wire.

    "Squarl trap," he said. He baited it with some food from my fridge and put it up in my attic. "Call me if you catch somethin'"

    I checked it every day, but it remained empty for several days. I changed the bait every so often. then one day there was a squirrel in it. It looked bigger up close than it seemed in the trees. It was frightened at first and barked at me in that VW Bug kind of bark that sqirrels have. It's eyes were nervous and alert.

    "Caught one," I told Clete over the phone.

    "Bring 'im over," he said.

    Clete lived in a small, quaint little town about 25 miles northeast. The neighborhood he lived in was meant to be a modern suburb, but there was something old dry and dusty about it anyway. The front of Clete's house is a pale and unassuming one-story house, but his back yard has a large garden, a sort of pen for his hunting dogs, a peach tree, and a patch of bamboo which he says is for making fishin' poles.

    The inside his house is warm and woody, cluttered and simultaneously cozy and claustrophobic. I follwed Clete to the kitchen with the prisoner squirrel. His wife, Effie, was sitting in a chair in the living room reading a book. She is very obese, and I rarely see her moving around because it's too much of an effort. Mostly she sits there so quietly she seems almost like a piece of folk art. When she's up, it's usually to go to a doctor's appointment for one of her many ailments; that's when you see how close the two of them are - there is a lot of tenderness between them and Clete calls her "Mama".

    In the kitchen I set the squirrel trap on a kind of raised platform - a chopping block. Clete very casually reached into a drawer and pulled out a large ice pick. With quick and seamless movements he had the trap open, grabbed the sqirrel by the neck and spiked it through the brain before either me or the rodent knew what was going on.

    "Stick around," Clete said. "We're gonna have him for dinner."


By on Monday, August 2, 1999 - 11:37 pm:

    *


By Rhiannon on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 11:25 am:

    I hope you stayed for dinner. Squirrel's good -- it tastes like rabbit.


By Simon on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 11:31 am:

    Careful what you say, here, Rhiannon... Sheila's mafia will come for you in the night.


By Fandango on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 12:29 pm:

    well. . . did you stay ?


By Wide Eyed World on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 12:30 pm:

    Humans sometimes scare the hell out of me.


By Scaramouch on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 12:32 pm:

    i stayed.

    will finish story later.


By Semillama on Tuesday, August 3, 1999 - 06:31 pm:

    you better - I don't see any evil in this so far.


By Scaramouch on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 12:05 am:

    So, as Clete slid the icepick out I said yes to his dinner invitation. It was the least I could do for the squirrel; besides, maybe all urban carnivores should have at least one animal that he eats killed in front of him.

    Clete went to wash off the icepick and instructed me to pour him and myself a bourbon. He put a small mat on the kitchen floor. With a knife he made a wide incision underneath the squirrel's tail (sort of at the seat of it's pants). He picked it up by the legs and bent down with it so that the tail was touching the mat. He put his foot on the tail and drew the squirrel upwards so that the skin slid off. It made me think of those old Warner Bros. cartoons where Bugs Bunny unzips his fur and takes it off.

    Thus stripped except for the two hairy back legs, the greyish-pink meat made it look like a baby faun. He took the fur off the legs and chopped off the head and feet. Then he cut a slit down the stomach and removed the internal organs. After removing the scent glands in the back and legs, he cleaned the squirrel off and dressed it for roasting while I pre-heated the oven. He put the squirrel in a large pan and rubbed with something - spices maybe. He barded the squirrel strips of salt pork and arranged new potatoes carrots around it in the pan.

    We left the squirrel to roast slowly. Clete took me out to his back yard for a tour of his garden, dog pens, etc. He had a larger garden than I'd ever seen in a residential area. He also had a fig tree; he's given a few jars of fig preserves. He had two retrievers named Tater and Chip. We were still talking about dogs when went back inside and sat down at his table with refreshed glasses of bourbon. He was telling about some favorite dog that had long since died.

    "Effie remembers Scout, don't you Mama." Clete said.

    Effie looked up from her book and said, "That dog followed him everywhere. Fetched his paper, slippers; they were like playmates together. That dog never once came to me when I called him. Ever." She turned back to her book. "Just hateful."

    About tow minutes later she called over to Clete and he got up and helped her to the bathroom. By this time the smell or roasting squirrel was wafting in. Squirrel smells good, sort of aromatic. When Clete came back I started quizzing him about small game.

    "Back during the Depression we lived of squirrel for a time. My papa and I would go of into the woods to shoot a few and my mama and sisters went off into the fields pickin' dandelions."

    He gave me his views on rabbit, beaver, woodchuck, possum ("never touch 'em), and a few others.

    "I'll tell you what's good eatin'," he said. "'Coon. Put it on to bake with bread dressing! Nothin' better. I remember once I'd come back from huntin' and had a 'coon with me. I put him out to hang in a tree in the back. Now, it was so cold that night that the next morning that coon was just frozen solid - hee hee. I mean it was just -" He closed his fist and made these sword passes with his arm that perfectly conjured up the vision of a frozen, splayed, frizzy-haired, startled-looking raccon. "Well, I put him in a big pot with some vegetables to slow stew. That afternoon Tom [his yougest son] came over with this girlfriend of his and her mother. Every so often the mother would sneak over to the pot with a fork and take a little piece of meat. She did that three or four times and finally Tom went over to her and said 'do you know what you're eating?' She said 'Of course! This is a fine piece of pork.' Tom said 'No, it's raccoon.' Well, she just turned white and ran off the the bathroom and went gaaaaak!" He made motions with his hands to signify projectile vomiting. "She must've been in that bathroom for 15 minutes. Didn't stop till she'd cleared out her stomach."

    Eventually the squirrel was done. Clete put the pan in the middle of the table and set out some plates. Effie sat with us but didn't eat any squirrel, opting for leftover casserole and a few of the vegetables. We shaved the meat off onto our plates and spooned up the vegetables. The sqirrel was very tender, melted in your mouth. Granted, I had a few bourbons in me, but I remember it as being as one of the most delicious meals I ever had.


By Persephone on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 12:53 pm:

    i think i'm going to be sick. as far as i'm concerned, i hope both you and that old man ROT IN HELL! when are people going learn that we are on this earth to share it with other creatures? how would you like it if your land was taken over by some other creature and you were only trying to live in it as best you could? and then one day some asshole traps you then hauls you off to some white trash dude who spikes you through the brain and cooks you?

    vegetarianism isn't just not liking meat, it's a moral choice.

    "evil meat" is right.


By Waffleboy on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 01:04 pm:

    .........here we go


By Scaramouch on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 02:35 pm:

    *Urp!*

    'Scuse me.

    Guillotined some chipmunks last night and the leftover chipmunk stew I had for lunch is repeating on me.


By Margret on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 02:51 pm:

    FUCK YOUR PRIGGISH NOTION THAT YOU HAVE SOME INSIGHT INTO HOW OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD LIVE IN THE WORLD YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE, PERSEPHONE.
    MORAL CHOICES ARE YOUR OWN, OR THEY'RE UNETHICAL.
    IMPOSING THE TRUTH AS YOU SEE IT ON OTHER PEOPLE IS INTELLECTUALLY AND PHILOSOPHICALLY IMMATURE.
    How many neural connections does something have to have before it's immoral to eat it?
    Because plants feel what looks statistically similar to pain.
    Moron.


By I wouldnt eat it silly on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 02:58 pm:

    Fried squirrel:Make sure all the hair is cleaned off the squirrel.Cut it up.If it,s old and tough,put it in the pressure for about 15-20 minutes.Salt and pepper it.Cover with flour and fry in a cast iron skillet on a medium fire until brown and tender.This is a real sweet meat.You can smother a squirrel just like a chicken.


By Waffles on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:02 pm:

    brooklyn is still topof tha food chain!!!!!!!


By Chip and Dale on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:06 pm:

    Scaramouch,YOU BASTARD!!


By The Hairport on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:15 pm:

    You killed kinney!
    you _are_ a bastard, that was my pet who would fetch me my slippers.


By on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:19 pm:

    and leave Persephone alone!


By Waffles with meat on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:23 pm:

    it's not that easy, nameless! if she has any balls she will come back and defend her argument, then we can turn this into a real monkey shit slinger......and YES their maybe monkeys harmed in the proceedings


By Grammar check on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:25 pm:

    there


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 03:39 pm:

    Oh, give the kid a break. She's probably just young.
    I was selfrighteous about my vegetarianism when I was twelve, too.


By Nate on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 04:27 pm:

    This is no place for a twelve year old! Pluto calls! Back to the underworld!


By Lawanda on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 06:40 pm:

    Margaret, I feel cheated. Where were you for me in my hour of need?


By Semillama on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 06:47 pm:

    Goddamn primates, always slinging some form of shit at each other.

    You got the omnivores and then the vegetarians who think they are better, and then the vegans who think they're beter than the vegetarians, and then there's folks like Jeff Dahmer, eyeing the vegans and trying to figure out what wine they'd taste the best with.
    Ain't culture funny that way?


By Margret on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 06:57 pm:

    Sorry Lawanda.
    I haven't been feeling perky lately.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 10:10 pm:

    Ahem, I don't think I'm better than the omnivores. I just don't happen to like meat.
    I couldn't give two shits what *you* eat, as long as you keep the steak and kidney pie downwind of me.

    Besides, the macrobiotics are the absolute worst when it comes to selfrighteousness.

    Man, I had this friend in high school who went macrobiotic after an incident involving a lot of shrooms and some very unwise behavior.

    He used to tell me with great pride about the healthy color of his bowel movements.
    That and how terrible my diet was.


By Simon on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 10:42 pm:

    I've served bear to several guests at my house who simply assumed they were eating pork. In fact, our Christmas ham last year was bear. I don't do this to be funny. I do this because this is what we eat, and if I think somebody's gonna get weird about eating something that wasn't raised on a feedlot, I don't bother going into detail.

    Incidentally, kidney pie is not meat. It's in that "bizarre other" category along with haggis and head cheese.


By Lucy Phurre on Wednesday, August 4, 1999 - 11:06 pm:

    Yeah, well, it smells really bad...I don't care if other people want to eat it...it's not my business..but I used to date this English dude, and he was not allowed to eat the stuff upwind of me.
    It smells like someone's pissed on it.
    And, well, it's not too surprising, considering the purpose of kidneys.


By Cyst on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 07:30 am:

    an ex-roommate's old "joy of cooking" had illustrated instructions on how to clean a squirrel.

    I ate rabbit for the first time a couple of weeks ago. it was pink and sweet.


By Cyst on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 07:41 am:

    persephone -

    how do you suggest we go about teaching lions that they are "on this earth to share it with other creatures" and that they shouldn't go around taking down the poor little gazelles?

    I think your average denali bear would have no moral qualms about killing a tourist. why should we feel bad about eating non-endangered species?

    right now I'm taking antibiotics to kill the bacteria that are living inside me. is this evil?

    I don't think persephone has ever lived in a rat-infested house.


By EpiCurious on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 10:21 am:

    On one nature show it illustrated how the lion, ?, would kill other animals but those animals were vegetarians and the predator would eat the stomach first because it contained predigested "greens".


By Persephone on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 01:39 pm:

    Yes I'm young, but so what? And Pluto isn't calling me back because I'm in meat-eating-slacker-ethics Hell right now! And I've got guts but I don't have unlimited access to a computer like all of you do.

    First of all to Margaret - "MORAL CHOICES ARE YOUR OWN, OR THEY'RE UNETHICAL"? What kind of moral vacuum did you grow up in? Morality is a higher standard and is for all. By your reasoning people can do virtually anything as long as it's their "personal morality". Hey everybody! Quit worrying about Kosovo - everything the Serbs are doing has to do with their "personal morality"! Forget the Holocaust. It was German personal morality. And I'm sick to death of the "immature intellect and philospy" stuff. Most people seem to think maturity has something to do with compromising principle for a lust for money, sex, and comfort.

    And that stuff about the lions is so lame. Lions also urinate and defecate anywhere they want to, but we don't (well, the majority of us) Animals are programmed to live a certain way and can't choose another.If it's the business of lions or any other animal to eat meat, that's fine. Humans have free will. And by free will we can either destroy the Earth (which we get closer to doing every day) or preserve it. Not eating meat is a choice that is moral. It shows a reverence for life and respect. If you water it down with sliding scales of who can do what, then it's meaningless. As usurpers of the Earth, we have a responsibility to it, all of us, and there is a code we all must live by.


By Political waffles on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 01:58 pm:

    god i remember what it was like to so FUCKING PC, I was voted most liberal and most revolutionary in my senior year of HS.

    so what about that lettuce I ate last night with cheese, and chick peas, onions and cabbage. Veggies are somewhat of a meat? Just not in your definiton of meat, right?

    Vegatables are living aren't they?

    What Marget was trying to say is, what you fucking EAT is your own god damned choice, however, it doesn't mean it's right for me and her and him. WE WILL DECICDE FOR OURSELVES, FREE FROM PERSECUTION. THANK YOU! I don't think she was saying we could do whatever we wanted to as long as it was a part of our moral ethics. We do have a n obligation to honor and respect the morality and ethics of OTHERS, which is it seems you are the one who is failing in that department. What we eat has nothing to do with morality, but rather a personal choice of preference.

    "Humans have free will."

    EXACTLY so shut the fuck up and stop preaching!!

    You will learn young as you get older that you can't change the fucking world, yes we are destroying this place but frankly there is nothing you can do about it. Try putting you energies where it will count. When it comes to social change, activism is a small role in what actually makes things tick. Quite often activism is a catalyst to an already breeding climate of unrest. When you get to college you may be inclined to study political science and you will see what I am referring to.

    Lets see you march your ass into the jungles of Africa or China or wherever food is in short supply or the climate does not allow for much growth of vegatation and start preaching about the evilness of meat eating. They eat meat to survive and quite often have few choices.


    and finally the sooner you learn that YOUR CODE to live by amy not be the one for me...the less of an antagonistic life you may have,






By Eskimo Joe on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 02:03 pm:

    in the frozen tundra of the north pole, we have no choice but to eat fish, seal and polar bear, we can't grow carrots, squash and falafal ....according Persephone we are evil, oh oh oh oh oh no!

    can you please airmail us some nature burgers, i prefer the "hamburger-like" ones..


By Rhiannon on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 02:28 pm:

    Babes, the good Lord / evolution gave us incisors for a reason, and it's not just for tearing apart those extra-fibry broccoli stalks either.



    Since we're on the offensive, has anyone here eaten venison (or did I miss that)? I have, a long time ago, and I've forgotten what it tastes like.



    And my uncle was in Wyoming last week and had some buffalo and some bear. He said the buffalo tasted a lot like beef, but "different." He said the bear tasted very strange, definitely not like pork.

    This reminds me of something that probably would gross out EVERYONE here...courtesy of an old high school history teacher. Apparently back in the days of the pioneers, people ate every part of whatever animal they killed. And (as Mr. Potter told us with great relish) when people would eat buffalo intestine, they wouldn't chew it, they would just swallow it inch by inch.

    So these two guys (Lewis and Clark? I've forgotten just who) were eating intestine, each taking an end, and if one guy (eg. Lewis) thought the other (eg. Clark) was eating more than his fair share, Lewis would tug on the intestine, pulling it out of Clark's stomach, so Lewis could have a little more to eat.


By Scaramouch on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 02:59 pm:

    I remember learning about that whole "eat the entire animal" thing (minus Rhiannon's intenstine slurping) during the 3 months I was in boy scouts. A lot of the Native American tribes on both continents ate diets that consisted solely of meat (where vegetation was scarce). If you eat every damn part of an animal you can get all the vitamins and minerals you need, especially if you're eating processing organs like the liver and shit.

    Isn't it the Argentinians who live pretty much on meat and mate? (mah-tay, the tea. though some may be able to live on their mate's meat. now i sound like i'm back in high school.)

    I'm gonna have that Lewis and Clarke thing in my head all day. It sounds like "Lady and the Tramp" (that's the name, right? The dogs slurping the same spaghetti strand?) as done by....

    Aw shit. I lost it. The guy who directed Eraserhead.

    David Lynch.


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 03:35 pm:

    Persephone, there is no universal moral code.
    I am a vegetarian, and I don't think it's the only way, only that it's my way.

    Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell also believe in a universal moral code too, and that anyone different from them will rot in hell, and I don't want them telling me what to do with my life either.

    The only difference between your attitude and his is that I happen to live in the same way you do.
    I just don't condemn others for not sharing my preference.


By FETIDBEAVER on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 05:40 pm:

    In the spirit of Bill Clinton:
    I eat beaver, but don't swallow it. tehe


By Nate on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 08:50 pm:

    i was at this sushi place and i ordered up some Awa-Ebi and the lady asked me if I wanted the heads, fried.

    sure?

    little tiny shrimp have fist sized heads. with eyes like canned blueberries. taste like pork rinds.

    so, hell must be quite a bbq.

    humans cannot get proper nutrition without meat. fact of life. sorry if you believe otherwise.

    Persephone -- I admire your guts. I don't agree with your message, though.

    My question to you is this: where do you draw the line? Do you avoid any product that incorporates animals into it? Do you pass (as mentioned above somewhere) on antibiotics? Do
    you avoid all motorized transportation? etc.etc.etc.

    This brings me (in some fashion) to the lives of plants. How can you justify eating plants, if your reason for not eating animals is the taking of life? We are all alive. I feel more spirt coming from a coast redwood than a hamster. You can't judge life force along lines of flora and fauna.

    Many studies have been done on the ability of plants to feel. The one I repeat most often to my vegitarian friends consisted of a room with a table and a half dozen plants (african violets, I believe, but I may be wrong.) The plants were wired in such a way that the natural electrical pulses of each plant could be monitored. At one point a man in a white lab coat enters with a pair of hedge clippers and brutally renders one of the plants into bits of (well) salad. The rest of the plants, electrically, go haywire. The plant version of distress. The man leaves.

    This is interesting in itself, however the meat (excuse my pun) of the experiement follows: Another man comes in and removes the mutliated plant. The plants are left alone and gradually their electrical pulses return to normal. Calm. Then the plant-murderer returns (this time without his hedge clippers.) The plans go haywire again.

    This clearly implies some sort of recognition, some sort of memory, and most importantly Fear. Fear of death. Emotion.

    So clearly, if your ethics really lie in not harming a creature that feels pain, you will starve.

    The ecosystem of earth is just that: a system. A system, in order to function properly, must exist within some sort of balance. Our place in the food chain is as omnivores.

    Fact: When humans remove the natural predators of deer the deer overpopulate the region. Overpopulation is not cured in pleasant ways -- while it is true that does will become barren to compensate, a considerable amount of deer will die of starvation when the natural capacities of the region are set off balance. Starvation is pretty unpleasant.

    Likewise, humans removing themselves as natural predators would offset the balance of the system. We're at the top of the food chain. That means we eat meat.

    If, as you claim (and I'm not sure where I stand on this one) morals are a higher standard, unified for all people, wouldn't it be logical to conclude that the structure of morality would have to lay somewhere within the natural order of the Earth?

    On an ethical level, I agree that we should abolish the ranching of domestic animals for food. The impact to the world is dispicable. On my gut level, I like a good steak or well roasted chicken.

    But I see nothing wrong with the Lesco I made the other night with some venison polish sausages that Simon shipped me. Goddamn was that good. And since he took the deer from the wild, its death was part of the natural order of things.

    Everything has to eat. Nature has provided each living thing with food to eat. The food required for our bodily function just happens to include the flesh of animals.





By Rhiannon on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 09:28 pm:

    So, how was the venison?


By Agatha on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 09:34 pm:

    frankly, i get a little bit tired of the "vegetables are alive" argument. so the fuck what if vegetables are alive? we have to eat something. also, humans are perfectly capable of getting the proper nutrition without eating meat. that is a total crock of bull.

    that side of the argument covered, zealots who try to shove their opinions down people's throats whenever possible irritate me to no end, on either side of the spectrum. self righteous vegetarians are almost as annoying as jerry falwell, in my book. however, i am ashamed to admit that i, too, was an overly zealous vegetarian in my youth. i used to show factory farming videos outside of the dining hall of my college dorm. i shudder to think about how rude and disrespectful that was, now that i am older and more jaded and less believing that i am capable of saving the world. i haven't eaten meat in thirteen years, and never will again. i don't like to tell people that i am a vegetarian, because it invariably makes meat eaters uncomfortable or defensive. after people eat with you a few times and notice that you don't eat meat, they start asking questions. when you confirm their suspicions, they generally take one of several routes:
    1. they tell you that they used to be vegetarians, but that it made them sick.
    2. they tell you that they don't like to eat very much meat.
    3. they go completely overboard with describing to you how much they love meat, and they eat it and say things like, "mmmmmmmmmm, flesh!"
    4. they go with the "vegetables are living" argument.
    5. they go with the "you are wearing leather shoes" argument. you know the one.


    all of the options are equally annoying, in my book. i don't care if you eat meat. now, please leave me to eat my vegetables in peace.

    now, then- what was my point?


By Lucy Phurre on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 10:36 pm:

    Firstly, Nate, you are wrong abt. the not being able to be healthy without meat attitude...
    Vegetarianism actually adds to the lifespan (And I need it, the way I shorten mine with other shit)

    I haven't eaten meat in 10 years, and I am perfectly healthy (except for the problems you would expect from somebody who abuses her body as much as I do)


    Anyway, meat just doesn't seem like food to me anymore. And, basically, I don't like it...I never liked meat very much, and now I see no reason to go back, since it's not something I'm into and it's bad for me anyway.

    That doesn't mean I think other people have to follow my example.

    I will also absolutely flat-out refuse to eat persimmons in any form. I think they are disgusting. I don't understand how anyone can eat them. However, I do not judge other people for liking them.

    I actually prefer to dine with carnivores if I am going out, as many dishes contain a chunk of meat or a few shrimp whether I like it or not, and I hate to see the meat go to waste, so I pick it out and give it to the carnivore.


By Semillama on Thursday, August 5, 1999 - 11:06 pm:

    Ah but you take B-12 supplements, don't you? I think Nate's point was that there are certain things in animal proteins we crave. We need to look at it from a much wider perspective. Put yourslef in your ancestors place, about 6000 years ago, let's say. What are the chances of meeting any vegetarians? Nil. Why is meat the crucial part of human diets for the whole of our existence (until incredibly recently)? Because you can't find a more nutritionally dense source of food.

    Actually, if our ancestors were vegetarians, we probably wouldn't have evolved to the point where we could argue about, much less argue at all. There were in fact vegetarian hominids a few million years ago, Australopithecus Robustus and australopithecus Boisei. They were very well adapted to eating vegetables, much like gorillas. However, they disappeared. Some evolutinary hurdle came up they couldn't manage. Their omnivorous cousins, A. africanus, A. afarensis, and the like, were omnivorous and probably acted like our closest living relatives today, the chimpanzees, who will go through a lot of trouble to get meat, and will choose it over plants when available.

    What's my point? Eating meat has nothing to do with morals at its core, and everything with survival. Just because we have reached a point in our culture where it is possible to live without meat, doesn't erase the fact that our bodies are the products of about 1.8 million years of eating the flesh of other creatures along with vegetables.


    I myself don't eat much meat beyond poultry. BBQ ribs I never pass up, and sometimes ham on holidays, and I also never pass up wild game. This is a product of my trying to cut out fast food out of my diet, and this hinged for me on just cutting out the meats that are most commonly the fattest. I have made a conscious choice to continue to eat meat, because of my current lifstyle, which includes working out frequently (high protien demand) and not a whole lot of cooking skills or desire to do a lot of cooking. Of course, I would not be adverse to vegetarianism, but It's going to take settling down with a woman to really do that, on ewho knows how to cook hi-protein meals and loves to do that every day.

    I am not certain that right now in this day and age that vegetarians really do live longer lives than omnivores, as there are so many chemicals aplied to every kind of food that it probably cancels out any life span benefits. aside from heart disease and clogged arteries, which last i heard are not as common in strict vegetarians.

    I could go on, but I will pass along the talking stick...


By FETIDBEAVER on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 12:34 am:

    This is off the path but have you ever wondered how different things would be if the body required no food or drink. The first humans (assuming we start at that point on the evolutionary path) would have had no reason to get up and do anything. No reason to move to other areas in search of food. No reason to invent tools. Just sit around in a spot with a hospitable climate.


By Cyst on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 04:38 am:

    yesterday I met up with a vegetarian. my only question to her was, "ok, so where do you want to eat?"

    persephone - do you ever wear leather shoes or a belt or use a leather wallet or purse or anything, and how do you reconcile that to your morally based vegetarianist lifestyle or whatever? do you extend your condemnation to vegetarian leather wearers?

    also, what would you do if rats started living in your house? even if you could catch them all, where would you take them -- let them loose downtown or something? that would be pretty fucking mean (to nearby residents). what about cockroaches?

    have you ever taken antibiotics? (bacteria do not photosynthesize.)

    do you have any pets, and what do they eat?


By FB on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 10:53 am:

    My dog eats the hitchikers that I kill.


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 03:16 pm:

    Ahem, I do not take b12 supplements, and I am perfectly healthy.
    I do, however, have periodic broccoli and wheat germ binges.
    Both of which are vegetarian and contain b12.
    My body (without benefit of blood tests or vitamin shots) tells me what I need.

    It is perfectly possible to be a healthy vegetarian.

    And, re: evolution: Darwin was a vegetarian.

    Re: Sem's Eurocentrism:

    There have been plenty of hunter/gatherer cultures which subsisted primarily on the gathering element, and only had meat every few weeks (when the men actually caught something)
    There is an entire caste in India that is currently and historically vegetarian.
    There is also an entire sect of Hinduism that is currently and historically vegetarian.
    There is also an entire sect of Buddhism (which sect is spread throughout Asia) that is currently and historically vegetarian.
    That is all I can think of off the top of my head, I have no doubt there are more examples, but I know this: these people have not, historically, needed b12 supplements.
    Nor have they, historically, died early from protein deficiency, anemia, or vitamin deficiency.

    Jesus, Sem, you know better.

    And, as for the rest of you, before long, you'll be telling me to rot in hell.
    Just like Persephone.


By Waffles on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 03:21 pm:

    why would we be saying that? It seems all have an understanding & respect for those who choose to eat styrofoam and cardboard...


    someone should write the nihilist cookbook......


By Waffles on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 03:23 pm:

    ....but then again that may be redundent


By Semillama on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 05:39 pm:

    If you are refering to the Jains, who have folks sweep the path in front of them so they don't step on bugs, I am well aware of that. I am also aware of my own Eurocentrism, which of course is natural, being raised in a Eurocentric society by Euroamerican parents...what other viewpoint could I possibly have? Please don't try to tell me that you aren't Eurocentric as well. One thing anthropologists are trained to do is recognize their biases and I have ferrreted out most of mine.

    Sure those cultures now are vegetarians, but I doubt their ancestors were ten thousand years ago.

    and as far as hunter-gatherer groups go, I would be extremely interested to learn more about these hunter-gatherer societies that you refered to that you seem to think were blase about meat. If you could supply references, I'd appreciate it. However, What most folks don't realize is that in hunter-gatherer societies, the men hunt the large animals, but women also hunt while they gather. They just happen to kill what ever small prey they come across.

    as far as B-12, hmmm, I thought I had read somewhere that it ocurs only in very low levels if at all in non-animal sources..I'll have to go look it up now so I can see if I was wrong about that.


By Semillama on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 05:51 pm:

    here you, Lucy:

    Vitamin B-12

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the only nutrient NOT manufactured by plants. It is produced by micro-organisms which live in the digestive tract of ruminant animals, like cows. So this will not be a concern for lacto-ovo-vegetarians. Egg and dairy products contain vitamin B-12. (Do not boil the milk however for it will destroy vitamin B-12.) Vegans can find vitamin B-12 in fortified soy sauce, tofu, and cereals or a vitamin supplement.
    Vitamin B-12 deficiency leads to megaloblastic anemia and can result in degeneration of the spinal cord, damage to the central nervous system, and memory loss. The dangers of this deficiency result from the difficulty in detecting it. A high folic acid intake masks B-12 anemia. Vegetarians usually eat high amounts of folic acid in their diets, therefore it can be difficult to detect the symptoms of this deficiency. By the time symptoms show up, neurologic damage has occurred. Be sure to take a supplement, eat B-12 fortified foods or drink milk.

    http://wwwsaonet.ucla.edu/health/healthed/VEGIWEB/RESOURCE.FRK/2vb&.htm

    Hope you rethink taking it supplementally.


    also, this might add another view into an earlier claim that lions ate the stomachs first to get at the predigested greens. perhaps they were going after the B-12?


By Margret on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 06:09 pm:

    For the record, I was a vegetarian for four years and managed quite well without meat. I wasn't healthy, but I was that variety of vegetarian I like to refer to as a "cheese puff" vegetarian, which means I didn't eat a balanced, nutritious diet. I am a "meat puff" omnivore now, I don't eat well no matter what I'm eating.
    I became a vegetarian because the only thing I liked about meat, really, was its taste. And I thought it was an extremely shitty thing not that things died for that, though that seemed shitty in itself, but that feedlots which are the ultimate nightmare living situation existed for the purpose of indulging me and other spoiled fucks like me in FLAVOUR. It wasn't hard to be a vegetarian in that situation.
    It also wasn't hard, a couple years later when I decided the flavour was worth it, to recidivate. I sort of reached a "fuck 'em" conclusion, and I've stuck with it. I eat way more vegetables than meat, and could cheerily not eat meat ever again if none were available, though I would be hard-pressed to avoid sepukku if some worldwide potato blight took out my chances of french fries.
    I never told other people they shouldn't eat meat. It never occurred to me that what was important enough to me to change the way I lived my life on a daily level should be important to them. I also don't make excuses for recidivating, and honestly believe that I'm living a less ethical life (by my own standards) than I was when I was a vegetarian. Fuck me, too, so what?
    People who justify their dietary choices on the basis of nature piss me off just as much as people who justify them according to some moral truth I maybe just don't have access to, or don't think is as important as the preeminent value of maximizing the options available to my limited individual will. Every fucking person in this world could be a vegetarian tomorrow: we have the fucking technology. People who live where vegetables are hard to grow might have to settle for importing the little darlings and being dependent upon the world economy, but I suspect RJ Reynolds is already sending them smokes. The simple truth is that being vegetarian conflicts with other systems of values, and loses.
    But Persephone's not entirely wrong. I am actually a wierd sort of moral relativist. And how I see that is this way, and it might be a bit...wacko, frankly. I'm content to be willing to put my life on the line or, even worse, kill people for things I believe in strongly enough. But I'm not willing to tell you to do it. I may ask you, I may implore you, engage every rhetorical trick in the book, and I may even end up judging you lacking if you fail to fall in with me. But I know I wouldn't want you to have the power to tell me what to fucking do against my will, and so I'm going to extend you the same courtesy...and myself the same protection from your moral truths.
    And, y'know what? I only stepped up to bat because Persephone did. This is the thing I like about free speech. When I say "shut the fuck up!", it's actually an invitation to dialogue, a fairly inflammatory one but there you have it. It's a style thang, and I am trying to break free from my self imposed reticence and sling some shit in the monkey cage. I am more than pleased with the response.
    Everyone: reward yourself with your commestible of choice. Psychically speaking, they're on me today.


By Waffleboy on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 06:17 pm:

    yeah I went vegetarian for 6 months and I lost 20lbs, considering I weighed in at 150 at the time, it was hardly a smart choice. So I scrapped that idea under doctors orders. Now I eat read meat at the most twice a week, chicken twice a week and seafood of all types makes me vomit. I am not a fan of the other white meat, pork. I mainly survive on lettuce, french fries, chick peas, cranberry juice w/vodka, beer, chips and salsa verde, cheese of all kinds and those kick ass chicken taquitos that trader joes sell.



    OH




    and of course





    JALAPENO WAFFLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


By FETIDBEAVER on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 06:27 pm:

    How about we let those cows die of old age, then eat them. Will everyone be happy then?




    Beaver...The Other White Meat


By Spiracle on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 07:57 pm:

    yeah..but would you be able to CHEW them?


By Lucy Phurre on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 08:26 pm:

    Semillama:...I figured you knew abt. vegetarian cultures.

    That's why I said "Jesus, Sem, you know better"

    Yes, if you go back far enough, you don't have vegetarian humans.
    If you go back even farther, you don't have humans.
    What the fuck is your point with this?
    Apparently, the evolution point did not convince Darwin, whom I consider something of an authority on that particular theory.

    My point was that there were healthy vegetarians before there were b12 shots.

    As for hunter-gatherers:
    I'll have to ask my (non-vegetarian-cultural-anthropology-and-human-evolution-teaching, just in case you want to argue that he's biased or you know more than he does) father about that, since he's the one who told me.

    As for needing b12, it's moot for me, since I am ovo-lacto (as I said, I just don't like meat), but wheat germ has b12 in it, I checked, so no, plants don't usually produce a lot of it, but it can be found.
    So does broccoli, I'm fairly certain.

    And I've been a vegetarian for 10 years, and, when I had medical coverage, I would get checked for iron and b12 every 6 months.

    No problems yet


By Semillama on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 09:30 pm:

    Ah, shit.

    The voices in my head have told me to fall back to the only possible outcome to all of this:


    when in doubt, EAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have said my piece.


By Nate on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 12:37 am:

    otherwise, eat ass, ya fucks.


By Cyst on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 05:12 am:

    this is one boring-ass thread. so I guess I'll prolong it.

    I've been eavesdropping on some hard-core christian forums at delphi.com (well, I was when I was sick, but now I'm done with that). and it's pretty interesting. not so much how otherwise intelligent people can take the entirety of the bible at face value, but how they can reconcile their whole lives to what it says.

    they seem smart. they really do believe. how do they deal with all the contradictions? how do they decide what to follow and what not to? that is what is interesting to me about christianity.

    same thing with evegelism. before telling me that I am evil because I eat meat, first you should tell me how exactly you practice moral vegetarianism. at which level does it start being wrong to kill? at chordata? and, if so, why is that the cutoff?

    I've sort of been skimming this thread because I think I'm on the side of the majority, but I think some have said stuff like, "people shouldn't tell others what to do; everyone should make their own moral choices blah blah blah."

    there are things that are wrong no matter what. I have no problem condemning, say, people who kidnap, rape and murder children (maybe one or two of the three would be ok, but all three is definitely wrong).

    I have also been thinking that in our arguments here we should avoid all references to nazism and b-complex vitamins. the first person to use nazis or vitamin b in their posts loses.

    one more thing? semillama - you will never ferret out all your biases. you will always be subjective. there is no objective reporting. just try to be fair and accurate, it's the best you can do.


By Pink Eye the other pink meat on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 09:18 am:

    Sweet Jesus, people! Eat what you want! Who the fuck cares? I couldn't stomach the latter half of this thread. Pro meat, pro veggies, pro leather, pro life...it doesn't matter. All of us will eat what we like. So quit battling over who ate what before whom. Quit pushing your menus. Just stop this crap. It was a simple story about Cleter.

    Enjoy the story telling, don't get self-rightous.

    Sad bunch of people, very sad...


By Cyst on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 01:26 pm:

    oh, ok. I just wanted to make sure I had your permission first. thanks!


By Scaramouch on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 02:26 pm:

    cyst - both nazism and B12 have already been mentioned. did you just not notice that, and if so, does that mean the contest is over? or do you mean from now on?

    clete says hi.


By Persephone on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 05:15 pm:

    I'm sorry I'm not able to get on a computer more often so that I might answer these posts as the come.

    First of all I want to mention that I'm of German-American stock and my father is a Lutheran pastor. I live in one of those German towns along the highway with billboards advertising authentic strudel and bratwurst. I no longer believe in the god I was taught about when I was younger, but what I did learn from German Lutheranism still figures in the way I see the world. This will come up later.

    Nate's distressed plants - Clever argument; I can see why you're in the top echelon of Sorabji posters. A philosopher once observed that trees don't have eyes because they would live in despair being able to see a predator coming and be able to do nothing about it. Plants were being eaten long before humans or even mammals were around, and it seems unlikely that suffering while being eaten would be part of their make-up. Furthermore, many plants are designed to be eaten. Fruit is meant to look tasty so that the seeds so that the seeds may be carried off shitted on fresh ground.

    I think it was the waffleguy who wanted to see me on the African savannah. I'm not talking about one person in the desert forced to eat lizard, I'm talking about a wealthy, wasteful society and a sense of duty to the earth. I'll tell you what I mean later. Although I think I have what it takes to survive in the desert and you probably couldn't survive in a place that didn't have decent Thai take-out.

    Belts and purses - I live in a community of craftspersons who make wonderful clothes from natural materials. I can always find non-animal clothing. I also live in a place so un-hip that having brand x isn't the pariah it is in LA or wherever. And yes, If someone gave me the option of being killed and being eaten or being killed and being a nice belt, I would find the second preferable but the moral difference between the two slight.

    Rats and roaches - When I was even younger than I am now, It was always a hobby of the boys in the neighbor hood to catch frogs and toads. Being the philosophers all males are, they would take these amphibian wonders and put then on girl's heads. When this happened to me, I was repulsed and certainly wanted to kill the frog and the boy. Afterwards though, I decided the best defense was to learn not to mind frogs and I enlisted another boy to take me frog and toad hunting. After conquering frogs I went on to everything else that repulsed me, like rats and roaches. Germans are obsessively clean, and it's hard to find vermin at home, but there's always some somwhere.

    I remember being in an abandoned house and coming upon a rat. It was big, fat and sluggish and had that spiky nasty hair that rats have. I knew I had to touch the thing so I lunged at to make a grab. While I had ahold of it squirmed around and bit my finger and held on for a while and I batted against a table a few times. It let go and ran off. I went home and bandaged and disinfected the wound. I didn't tell anyone because I thought they might make me get rabies shots. I went back to that house everday for a week just to prove that one rat bite wouldn't make me afraid.

    I tell that story just to tell you that, no, if I suddenly had a rat in the house I wouldn't squeal and backtrack and call an exterminator. You believe in something you've got to go all the way, rat's and all.


By Persephone on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 05:49 pm:

    Look, vegetarianism isn't the church, it's part of the practice. It's like genuflecting or taking communion. People like to go on about where you draw the line and is it macrobiotic or someother type. Refusing to eat meat is, first and foremost, a gesture of respect toward the earth and a gesture of personal restraint.

    When you're brought up in a church household you're taught about original sin and falling from grace. When Adam and Eve eat the apple, they are given the "knowledge of good and evil" - free will. They must from now on choose between base desires and nobler (for the good of all) choices. All great religions of the world are basically a system of limitations - thou shalt not - designed to order a society.

    When the stories of Hebrew lore that eventually made up the old testament were being written, life was a constant struggle. Provisions were made in their religion: even before they fell from grace, and apparently didn't need to, they were given "dominion" over the earth and told to "subdue it".

    Well, the earth will never be subdued completely, and what attempts we've made are turning around and starting to bite us on the ass. Restraint is now needed.

    I've seen some people being sceptical about individualism and that makes me hopeful: individualism is practically a relegion with a lot of Americans. And like most religions it's ill understood. People just react when they hear about some right, worthwhile or no, is infringed upon.

    I admit I'm beginning lose my way in all this having to write in this little square and having no time for revision.

    I'll leave you with this:

    The Buddha said (more or less)"do not, oh monks, believe something simply because your teacher told it to you, or your father, or I told you; but, after careful meditation and reflection, you find it to be for the common good of all, then cling to it with all your passion."

    I think vegetarianism alone will not solve the world's problems, no one thing will. But I do believe it's a start. It is a gesture of restraint and respect toward the earth - not because god or science says so but because it's necessary. God is simply a figure on which we may hang necessaries - moral codes and practices. Any pastor will tell you that politely asking someone to do the right thing don't mean shit. Authority is demanded.

    Science it ever-revising and usually as misunderstood and misused as a god in arranging moral affairs. Let science design computers and send men to the moon.

    Socrates, even among the greeks who thought all questions could be answered through science, thought most people should know only enough science for practical use. The real question was how a man can be good.


By Waffleboy on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 09:47 pm:

    "you probably couldn't survive in a place that didn't have decent Thai take-out."

    you DON'T know me so DON'T pretend to. I have had survival training as a member of Civil Air Patrol-div of US Air Force (I know snicker, laugh what have you but at that time in my life I was convinced I was a pilot in the making)

    The fact that I live in a metropolis doesn't conclude that I would never survive in the wilderness for an extended amount of time, I have done it and I can do it again.










    chump!


By Pink on Saturday, August 7, 1999 - 11:06 pm:

    how 'bout a Snickers?


By TBone the Omnivore on Sunday, August 8, 1999 - 01:21 am:

    Just had myself a gardenburger. The really fancy ones that are like a mushroom swiss thing or some other burger style trapped in a veggie bun... damn tasty. What's IN those things?
    Of course, while you're eating one, you have to keep in mind that you aren't eating a meat burger. If you compare it to hamburger you won't enjoy the experience. If you think of a gardenburger as a separate food group, it's quite tasty. Depending on the place, I sometimes preffer a gardenburger to a greasy pat of meat.


By Cyst on Sunday, August 8, 1999 - 12:34 pm:

    persephone -

    if you feel like talking about it, I would be interested to know how you, as a moral vegetarian or whatever, decide which non-photosynthesizing living creatures can be killed (cockroaches? black widows in the backyard of a house with small children? staphlococcus, streptococcus, e. coli?) and which can't.

    it's easy not to eat hamburgers. it's hard to recover from a bladder infection without taking antibiotics.

    "Plants were being eaten long before humans or even mammals were around, and it seems unlikely that suffering while being eaten would be part of their make-up."

    so were fish. do they suffer when man catches and kills and eats them?

    do you ever wear leather shoes? what does your community of craftspersons make shoes and belts out of?

    when you disinfected your rat bite wound, did you feel at all bad about killing those bacteria? why not? why is it ok to kill bacteria and not cockroaches?

    I think saving the earth is another issue that has nothing to do with vegetarianism for moral reasons (and a lot to do with cars and excess packaging). anyway, I was just wondering how a moral vegetarian goes about doing the right thing and all, but I've already asked these questions and if you don't want to answer then I won't ask again.


By Gee on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 02:00 am:

    I'm begining to like Persephone. Her original post was pretty freakin' stupid, but since then she's held her own against sorabji's mightiest nitpickers and I like the way she argues her cause.

    'Though I predict someday she'll learn she Does Not have all the answers, I like the way she sticks to her guns.







    For those of you who say how much you hate it when other people shove their morals and etc. down your throats, why aren't you thinking about that when you nitpick tiny little holes in the theory of vegitarianism? "Do you wear leather? Which lives CAN you kill? What about plants?" blah blah blah. If you don't want someone to tell you you Can't eat meat, then stop trying to convince them they Can. Or just shut up and let them argue their case, too.

    And before anyone has a cow, I'm not talking about All of you. Just Some of you.


By Cyst on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 03:14 am:

    I feel sort of bad about being on the side of the majority and then asking persephone to clarify what she's saying about vegetarianism, but I really am curious.

    I mean, clearly she's intelligent and has thought things out. I just want to know what she's come up with. because my previous discussions about vegetarianism have taken place in the freshman-dorm-cafeteria environment and haven't been at all enlightening.

    but the meat-is-murder and factory-farming-is-evil and americans-are-wasteful-and-inconsiderate things I already understand. the interesting, difficult issues that I haven't yet been able to figure out have to do with the questions I brought up.

    I don't care that persephone condemns my lifestyle or whatever. I think it's cool when people leave anti-veal tracts on restaurant tables.

    I was just wondering if - if this argument is going to exist here anyway - if we could get past the "evil meat" and "we shouldn't kill the furry animals" sentiment and into a discussion of what exactly the problems are and what one can do to solve them. that's all.


By Cyst on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 03:23 am:

    also, I think leather is sort of at the crux of the vegetarianism issue for me.

    because most of the vegetarians I know also love to hike in leather boots. because there is no substitute for animal skin for footwear. it lasts a long time, it breathes. canvas and rubber shoes are fine for walking around town, but you need something more solid for hiking in.

    (and, if you go to a cheap shoestore like payless, you can get imitation leather shoes, but vinyl isn't really the same. the affluent vegetarians I know, who buy organic produce for like $3 a pound or whatever, also promote, as persephone did, "natural fiber" clothes, and would never wear vinyl on their feet as a matter of course.)

    so what these vegetarians that I know are all basically saying is that one shouldn't kill animals unless baby needs a new pair of shoes.

    it isn't convincing.

    but I know that there are true moral vegetarians out there, and I'd love to talk to one someday.


By Waffleboy on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 06:18 pm:

    I wish a Vegan would come around so we could put him or her to the stake. I am curious if any Vegans breast feed?


By Lucy Phurre on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 10:30 pm:

    I used to know a guy who was an honest vegetarian.
    He wouldn't eat cute animals.
    Ugly ones were on their own, though.

    Personally, I am an entirely amoral vegetarian.

    And Semillama, my rule against seafood has never precluded the enjoyment of the occasional bearded clam.


By Agatha on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 10:58 pm:

    i hate that expression. yuck.

    why can't vegans breast feed?


By Waffleboy on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 11:03 pm:

    I apologize, i phrased that incorrectly, what I mean to say was.......vegans don't consume, milk, cheese, butter etc. I would be curious what a vegan's thoughts are on breast feedng. Be it animals or humans. But now I realize I don't really don't care, so it's a moot point to me.


By Persephone on Monday, August 9, 1999 - 11:47 pm:

    all right.

    scaramouch and persephone are the same person - a 30 something male who has an active imagination. i had written the first part of the sqirrel story (which never happened and is coddled together from stories i've heard and my own imagination) on impulse after reading sheila's hunting thread. i stopped it at the ice-pick part because i had no idea how to cook a sqirrel. the next day i finished it using a "joy of cooking", guesses, and a few scraps of remembered dialogue.

    persephone was orginally just something i did for the hell of it. the second post was because margaret yelled at me. after that, though, i was becoming intrigued and was trying to create a vegetarian character. I eat meat every day and wear leather and have never had a vegetarian thought in my life until i started creating the character of german, lutheran, 13 year-old persephone. (i'm irish catholic, by the way.) it was nice to have the freedom of filtering ideas through a naive young girl.

    I had this whole answer written out by persephone about the importance of conviction and a few quotes from corinthians 1, and her father and so forth, but i deleted it. this isn't the first time i've done this here and i tend to get consumed in the characters and stay up at night thinking about it and forget to do stuff etc. i figure that by coming clean now i'll be too embarrassed to come back. i have really got to stay off of these boards.

    --droopy


By Agatha on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:01 am:

    i love you, droopy.


By Gee on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:30 am:

    I still like Persephone. The rest of your personalities seem like a bunch of jerks.


By Waffleboy on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:58 am:

    i am laughing my ass off..........for your next act?






    A man with three buttocks?!!!???


By Antigone on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 01:28 am:

    A man with six noses...


By Cyst on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 03:29 am:

    keep playing, droopy. so what are your feelings about cipro, p.?


By MooNunit on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 03:46 am:

    droopy thanku for making me laugh


By Margret on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 09:32 am:

    Awesome.
    It makes it that much more gratifying to have flamed.
    Ahhh.
    See, I don't want to chase people (even alter egos) away. I just want them to not torture me with knee jerk fuzzy wuzzies.
    13? Nah. 19, maybe.
    Good one, Droopy.
    Really, though. the squirrel was the best part. I enjoyed the "story" ness (as in "read me a bedtime story, Droopy, please...") of that. Very entertaining.


By Lucy Phurre on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:42 pm:

    Fucking beautiful.


By Lawanda on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:52 pm:

    Good job, you had me going. But that's not a great feat either. I'm terminally gullible.


By Simon on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 01:43 pm:

    If you're one of those weirdos who looks at html source codes (like me), you may discover that the Sorabji boards post the I.P. address of each poster.

    But it's more amusing to watch somebody argue with "themselves" then it would be to spoil the fun.


By Semillama on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 06:14 pm:

    I had a feeling the story was made up. The characters were good, but obvious. (in ther squirrel story, i mean. Persephone is a great character, very believeable)


By TBone on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 07:12 pm:

    That's too much for me. :)

    I like this droopy character.


By Agatha on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 09:02 pm:

    actually, i think the squirrel story was the real one, if i know droopy.


By Nate on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:49 pm:

    Awh horseshit! that's what I say, goddamnit! horseshit!

    i'll eat me hardboiled eggs on the cart back to the homestead. nora and i will do a few rounds between the sheets and then i'll burn the fucking house down. i will, i say. goddamnit i will.

    then i'll plow the north forty like it weren't nothin goin on. and then i'll come back and ride ol' ma's cow into town in me skivvies. goddamnit, i will. horseshit! horseshit!


By Droopy on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 11:35 am:

    why didn't ya say so before, nate? the reason you find clete so unbelievable is that you don't live in a small texas city like i do (i got his name from an old guy i know named cletus doogs). they're all over the place, believe me. you'd just have to see it. and all the dialogue is stuff i've actually heard. but the story was meant to "story-like" and kind of funny and it was hastily writen. it was just me having fun.

    and if all the other characters are "jerks", it's because it's worth it to me to take one single bad aspect and amplify it as a way of working through it. and i don't see them as alter-egos only because all of this has more to do with creative impulses than anything else.

    persephone really helped me clarify a few things. originally she was 13, but she progressively got older the more i had to think through my answers.

    as far as antibiotics: i don't think it's really the point that vegetarians live out their convictions to a logical extreme like wearing only palm fronds and purposely infecting themselves with AIDS so their white blood cells will stop killing bacteria. people always argue the nit-picking shit, but nobody brings up the fact that when you become a vegetarian you have the feeling (i guess, i still eat meat) of being a part of something. Lucy had said something on the woodstock thread like: just because what the 60's radicals did wasn't always for the right reasons it still doesn't mean that what they did was useless.

    it just seems to me that vegetarians are generally more inclined to work toward all those good enviromental and social changes and that it's even preferable to have ones who sneak a little leather and the occasional hamburger in to keep one foot in the rest of the world. it's masses of mostly committed people that pretty much who enact change. this is pretty much how the church works.

    anyway, that's what i think. this will be my last post because i promised myself i'd go cold turkey. besides, simon the ip sleuth would make me paranoid.


By Cyst on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 12:36 pm:

    I'm partly committed to enacting positive change in the world and don't feel that I should be told that my lifestyle is evil by the mostly committed. it's all gray, you know?


By Nate on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 12:47 pm:

    ah, no droopy. i mean, i don't believe any message, but i wanted to believe the clete story.

    my previous message was mostly the result of being really baked.


By Droop on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 01:48 pm:

    damn, i'm such a backslider.

    don't matter, nate. the story at heart was sort of a "lake woebegone" bit and i was assuming a little suspension of disbelief. it was also the writer in me regretting the rough draft quality of the clete story. i knew i wanted an "innocent" to be pulled into the world of eating small game, and i knew how to act it out. the squirrel ice-picking thing actually happened to a friend of mine. i knew i needed graphic violence done to the squirrel. the last part annoys me a little because it was a little crammed because there were only so many words i could use. i don't care what they do on star trek, nobody likes to read shit on a computer screen for long periods of time.

    i also thought it was interesting the way all the males posted specifically to say "well, i wasn't fooled." most of the women probably felt the same way, but that male pride wouldn't let it go unremarked.
    normally that would be a language block rough draft that i would rework later. this is just my ego talking. but it was worth it to have a real enough killing and eating of a squirrel. i've got to try one sometime.

    cyst - i know it's all gray. i think we're just coming from different angles. when i was working out persephone's views, i was trying to figure out how she got to that point - that's where the lutheran and rats thing all came from. the rats showing that she has a strong will and that it means something to her not to back down. the lutheran thing i came up with as a background for the way she held her ground (martin luther at worms and all that).

    there is a point in the bible where the apostle paul says: for the jews want a miracle and the greeks want proof [your bible may differ] but we preach christ crucified, unto the jews a stumbling block and unto the greeks foolishness...but god has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise."

    this is a bit of clever spin-doctoring to sell christianity. but it worked and i respect that. even if you (cyst) are right, then all you succeed in doing is getting them off your back. all i'm saying now is that there are lots of vegetarian web sites many of which discuss important non-veggie issues, and no one logical, cynical, reporter with lots of facts web page.

    part of this comes from a graham greene novel called "the comedians" which has a character who is an american going to bring vegetarianism to haiti, where the people under papa doc are barely getting enough of anything to eat. in the end though, the wordly/cynical english narrator had to admit a certain amount of respect for his conviction to all the man's causes, if not the cause itself.

    anyway that's my shade of gray. even if you can't logically explain every aspect, vegetarians do more good than harm. besides, i only know one vegetarian in the real world, and she has long since given up trying to explain it to me. she's up in alaska working with kids or something like that. wearing leather boots.

    i just thought about the most committed person i know. a guy who works at the electric company who is the head of texas american atheists.

    www.star-telegram.com/home/atheists/


By Cyst on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 03:01 pm:

    some vegetarians may do more good than some meat eaters. but, anyway, thanks for trying to explain, droopy. sorry if I badgered your alter-ego, but I really, really want to understand the moral-vegetarian viewpoint as fully as I can.

    if someone could convince me that eating animal flesh was wrong, then I would become a vegetarian. so if I meet an evangelist vegetarian, then they should want to answer my questions because I'm open to conversion. but I just can't see why it's morally ok to wear leather if it's not morally ok to eat meat. but anyway.

    I am gullible and trust that people are telling me the truth unless I have some reason to think otherwise. I'm easily fooled and get laughed at often. it's ok.

    the most committed person I know was a united farmworkers union campaign organizer for several years, though he recently left that organization to work for the national gay and lesbian task force. he's one of my oldest friends. and he's a vegetarian.


By Nate on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 03:19 pm:

    oh, and that whole horseshit post was about being fooled.

    it occurred to me that things might have been contrived, however at no point did i suspect that the two main characters would be one and the same.

    and, of course, if i was fooled, everyone was. except simon. because he has spytech.



By Droop on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 04:37 pm:

    don't apologize to me, cyst - the "badgering" is what created her. like i said, i never really thought that much about it much till all of this. i remember conversations with my cousin about vegetarian, and i challenged her reasons just like you did till she finally said "well, it just makes me feel in control of my life." this was a few years after she had come out as a lesbian and she had gone from fairly miserable and cynical to happy and fulfilled, so i was inclined to give her that.

    i also remember this baptist preacher who lived across the street to me when i was a kid. we would talk alot but i never would say i believed and resisted all his proofs until one day he threw up his hands and said "show me a better way to live and i will accept it." i've always remembered that because it sort of defined the whole thing for me. when i say i don't believe in god i mean that i can't believe in something just because it would be to my advantage to do so; but then again, that's usually why we believe anything.

    it isn't that important to me how it works, but why people do it or what brought them to the point that they would say "this is right for me." it's probably the best answer you'll get.

    by the way - as a paraplegic i practically live on cipro, so i'm all for it.

    and i don't see it as my fooling anyone, but by pure accident having created a moderately successful piece. something that created interest in the characters and all that.




By Would you believe . . .Fandango on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 04:59 pm:

    like Simon sayd, to view "page source" you press the 'Ctrl button (below the shift key) and the letter U simultneously. or next to File and Edit at the top of this Netscape brrowser, click View then choose 'Page Source'.
    Europe _is_ refusing to accept meat/beef from U.S. because of the hormones and antibiotics fed to the cows to grow reel huge etc. Of course this is highly concentrated in the milk. Consequently eaters of fast-foods and the milk are developing ahead of their time - girls reaching puberty at very early ages like 10. Nature intended animals and humans to drink the mothers milk and be weaned. Try soy milk, it can be delicious and prevents cancer. Highly nutritious.
    hard to type, eating blueberries that are soaking in tap water with 6 drops of grapefruit seed extract in it to rinse them.
    must have oxygen #@@ *%!!?


By TBone on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 05:48 pm:

    I was way fooled. That's all I can say. Definately fooled. Now I'm dissapointed.


By Semillama on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 06:13 pm:

    Hey, Droopy, now that i reflect more on the original post, it may have screamed fiction, but I oculd instantly picture the characters, how they moved and everything. So actually, a good piece of work there.

    When i eat animals, i feel something has become a part of me.

    WE put anti-biotics and growth hormone in the food because the evil secret overlords are fattening up the public for the alien protien harvest ships. Vegetarians don't get out of this one, they end up as garnish or croutons. Waste not, want not, you know.


By Lucy on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 06:20 pm:

    Soylent green is made out of people.


By Mnaaaate on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 08:32 pm:


By Waffleboy on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 01:15 am:

    better yet, WHO exactly wasn't fooled? I sure as hell was.


By Ropody on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 01:33 am:

    ahhh, who cares.

    i liked doodie.com. it's the shit.

    heh.


By I wouldnt eat it silly on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 02:34 pm:

    I was fooled,and that was a real recipe for cooking squirrle,also have ones for gator,and beavertail.


By Waffleboy on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 02:39 pm:

    i want some BEAVERTAIL


By Eyvette on Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 04:03 am:

    Persephone, the squirrel was in this persons attic. He trespassed and became dinner. Yumyum.
    Persephone, you can bow down to the woodchuck goddess or whatever you believe in, but meats is the eats. Yumyum...squirrel gravy smothered all over a nice coon patte'. :)


By Markus on Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 11:36 am:

    You skipped the middle part, didn't you.


By Bessie smith on Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 11:53 am:

    i'll save her the trouble - we used her ip number to track persephone down, then cooked and ate her because she displeased us.

    don't make the same mistake.


By Markus on Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 12:33 pm:

    Tasted like squirrel.


By Sloop john b on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

    meatloaf is also shit.he is so fat and sweaty.


By Cy-borg on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 04:36 pm:

    merry meet and merry part is a traditional wicca greating.but dont say it in public,because folks will think your nuts.


By G-string on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 05:36 pm:

    why do guys beat there meat,is it to make it more tender.


By G-string on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 08:04 pm:

    come on wimps,i want an answer .speak goddamit.


By Linda on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:38 am:

    Wow! what a weird chat you had going on for so long. And still is! I say- live and let live. People aren't bad because they choose do something that someone else wouldn't. It's the differences in us that makes the world an interesting place. If everyone was to follow Persephone rules- we'd be clones of Persephone! And the world would be over run by animals. I mean- has anyone with a narrow mind here considered population control? Also- is one meat more acceptable than another? At least the squirrel died happy- more than I can say for the millions of chickens we slaughter. Humans were meant to live off the land. Food chain, people. Survival of the fittest. My God! We are of a race that chops off heads of young soldiers, and you people are upset over squirrels for dinner? Who cares? Pick your battles. To each his own. And Percy- prove to me a plant doesn't feel pain when they respond to singing by flourishing! We don't know jack- so we can't pass judgment! My mother fed squirrels as a young girl. When she ran out of food- they went for her. They bit her. She was the meal. Maybe humans and squirrels think alike after all!

    The only part of this I found disturbing was the graphic description of how the squirrel was skinned and you seemed to enjoy watching it, Scaramouch. That was a bit strange.

    But you are entitled- perhaps you just handle blood better than most. Maybe for you it was a learning experience. In any case- it was a lot more civil than the war we in. Now that's an important issue!


By jack on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:50 am:

    linda, your timing is impeccable.


By agatha on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:52 am:

    I miss Droopy so much I could almost cry.

    Come back, Droopy!


By Spider on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:55 am:

    Agatha, did you get my email?

    This is one of my favorite threads ever.


By agatha on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:04 am:

    Yes, I need to send him a letter. Maybe this weekend.


By agatha on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:04 am:

    Amendment to this thread:
    I eat fish now.


By jack on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:10 am:

    jack says "yay fish, agatha."


By wisper on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 02:08 am:

    me too agatha, me too.

    "And the world would be over run by animals. I mean- has anyone with a narrow mind here considered population control?"

    oh Linda, you couldn't possibly be more wrong on that one.


By heather on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 03:48 am:

    yup

    over-run with domestic chickens and cows...breeding themselves in the off chance we feel like eating them someday. dur.


By Gee on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 10:49 am:

    I forgot about this thread, re-read it, and was fooled all over again.


    if you guys know something about Droopy, why don't you share it with us?


By patrick on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:22 pm:

    because we're keeping it specifically from YOU dear gee


By Gee on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 03:11 pm:

    I always secretly suspected that I was the centre of the universe.


    or the star of my own television show.


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