are you sure you want the cops to be the only ones having the guns? ARE YOU SURE? "Parking Lot of Yankee Stadium in filling up with NYPD units in a standby mode" the cops know how fucked up this is. doesn't sound like they're preparing an apology.

Fuck tha police.

look, i don't deny these cops fucked up. however, cops are human, cops are edgy because of the environment we give them. arming ourselves, making them even more edgy will only result in more trigger happy tragic incidents by people who shouldn't be cops. i think i have may have said it before, but the arming of the public is comparable to the cold war nuclear arms race. there are indeed unruly people who should never be cops and god knows we got our fill of them here in fucking LA....... i am frankly not surprised they are gathering in anticipation of riots. however people should take note from the lesson learned in LA 7 years ago. what happened in those riots? what was accomplished? how many innocent people were hurt and or killed? how many innocent businesses and homes were burned? thats JUSTICE? fuck that you wanna police state? go ahead, get violent, get a gun, throw a rock through a window.......

have you ever served on criminal jury nate?

"too high to get over too low to get under just stuck in the middle and the pain is thunder" the sun just set over manhattan.

Stunned and sitting in disbelief.... "Land of the free...home of the enslaved" Fuck this....I'm moving to Europe.

I can't believe those cops got aquitted. Blargh.

19 gunshots into a body. How many fucking bullets? 19. Jesus Christ. What, did they think he was superman? They should have just: Alright, here's 5 bullets. Don't spend them all in one place.

What's all this about?

The verdict for the Amadou Diallo shooting in NYC -- 4 white cops shot 42 bullets at an unarmed black man in the Bronx last year, hitting him 19 times. They all said at the trial they tbought he had a gun in his hand, but it was only his wallet. Very very sad, both the incident and the verdict.

He was shot in the vestibule of his apartment house in a quiet neighborhood. I don't know all the details; I try to follow Andy Weil's admonition to avoid the news whenever possible. Apparently the police were looking for a rape suspect whose description Diallo matched (?), one cop thought he saw a gun (?), yelled "gun," his buddy thought the first cop was in trouble, and everyone opened fire. Gun turned out to be wallet. Man dies, killed by fellow men. I wouldn't want to be a cop anywhere. The criminals carry automatic weapons and I guess the cops have to also. Squeeze, one sqeeze, and it's over. Clip empty. Body down. I am not at all against guns, but against the people who use them against one another. I wouldn't want to be on this or any other criminal jury trying a case of unfortunate mistakes. Certainly there have been a number of miscarriages of justice in this country, but over all, it's a hellava lot more fair and just than many others. The system? My father and his father were magistrates; I ran as fast as I could from law schoool. I wouldn't want to be in New York, London, Paris, or LA. I don't like big cities, crowds, or the inherent chaos I see in either, whether present or not, because I see chaos in both as they are unfamiliar to me. Unfamiliarty sometimes leads to fear I suppose. I dislike violence for it breeds more violence. Violence is not acceptable. In any form. The abused children in Building B grow up to be the adult abusers I try to help in Building A of the psych hospital I call my work. Some might say this is a violent world, and even the most natural interactions can be violent. But our species has a particular propensity for seeking and destroying its own. Physically and psychologically. I cannot blame the society, the cops, or the media, but can only take personal responsibility for my own actions and reactions. I feel powerless in such a situation except to speak out and model the behaviors and attitudes which preclude, prevent, and abolish our violence toward eachother.

well said Daniel the thing is. we only know the bits and pieces of the evidence. besides markus, who has been in that scenario invoving guns and being shot at or the perception of being shot at. Would it have happened if he were white? who knows. no one can say for sure what it must have been like for those cops at that moment, ricochets sounded like gun fire from his end, a cop took a dive, to the other three it looked as if he was hit, it was dark, who the fuck knows. I believe there was indeed negligence on the cops part, but at the same time, look at the daily routine of a cop. hell firefighters in NYC have been shot at, how many innocent cops have been shot in the line of duty. these types of accidents are bound to happen. it's very sad on both sides. being on a jury as of recent, for a criminal case, i learned alot about what it takes to convict someone of a crime. I can't speak for NY., but most likely, it takes a unanimous jury to convict. i would rather let a guilty man go than put an innocent man in jail. it's a tough situation. Shadow of a doubt, presumed innocent, burden of proof....these are critical things in deciding a mans fate. i am very disapointed they got off completely. 2nd degree murder is too strong. but criminal negligence, mansalughter....these charges seemed more appropriate. it's tragic eitherway........

I think they should have at least gotten manslaughter. Cool their heels in jail for a while. I have respect for policemen. They are generally good people and they have been known to save lives. (like mine) However, I think that clearly something happened here which was wrong, and these guys need time out and no cookie. Maybe it's just me. Small community gives me these wierd moral expectations of people. Gotta stop that.

"Would it have happened if he were white? who knows. no one can say for sure what it must have been like for those cops at that moment..." Patrick/I don't even think you can believe that yrself. There has NEVER been a record of ANY white suspect/perp/whatever being shot 19 TIMES by the NYPD. This case was ALL abt Race. It was abt White cops living in a world where their only interaction w/Blackfolks is chasing down 'suspects' or arresting 'perps'. Then they go back to their homes on Long Island or Staten Island or upstate where they never have to see a Black face unless it's on their t.v. screen. It was not becuz of 'publicity' that this case was moved from the pre-dominantly Black borough of the Bronx/where the shooting occurred/to the majority-White city of Albany. The state KNEW they wd never get a Bronx jury to exonerate those cops. Which is why the whole change-of-venue business needs to be scrapped/so people are tried where the crime happened. If you're a cop who is so scared of Blacks/who views us all as criminals/then yr ass shd get on the P.D. in some all-white city where you don't have to deal w/people that don't look like you! The 1st job of any police officer is to SERVE & PROTECT. Trying to i.d. suspects in the dark/from a distance/based on nothing but a sketch/does not 'serve' the community. And there are a thousand unwritten rules cops have in dealing w/suspects. The rapist they were supoposedly looking for (& frankly/I think that whole story was made up after the fact/to try & cover their asses) had no record of ever having shot any of his victims. And why did it take a batallion of cops to try & apprehend a single rapist? Do you really think 4 grown men w/badges & guns standing out on the street had reason to be in mortal fear of their lives from a suspected rapist standing in the vestible of a bldg.? Those bastards saw a Black man at what they thought was the right address. They told him to stop & identify himself. He reached into his pocket for his wallet -- which is what any law-abiding person does when the cops ask for i.d. But one of those cops was a trigger-happy, scared little pussy who hollered 'Gun!' becuz he didn't have the wisdom & experience to properly assess the situation. Then they all started shooting/as a reflex. An "It's us against the Nigger!!!!" reflex. Becuz even in the 21st century/even despite the Internet & places like this/very little in America has changed in terms of the way most Whitefolks view Blacks. If I can find the site/I'll post the charges. For each charge/the jury had 4 or 5 possible levels of criminality they cd have convicted on -- from straight-up homicide to negligent manslaughter/or something like that. For ANY jury of sane, sober individuals NOT to have convicted a single officer on even 1 charge for even 1 count/is a blatant act of racial hatred. It's message rings loud & true: "WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT THE COPS DO TO YOU BECUZ YOU ARE ALL LESS THAN HUMAN TO US!" There's nothing ambiguous or unclear abt THIS verdict.

were all the jury members white folks?

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! your opinions mean jack-shit. do the fucking math.

There were 4 blacks & 8 Whites on the jury. The Blacks were all women. You can read more abt the jurors here: http://courttv.com/national/diallo/jury_profile.html But everybody Black ain't a Brother/or in this case/a Sister. I don't understand how any Black person/even living in Albany/cd'nt see that this shooting was NOT an accident or a mistake. It was a kneejerk reaction of a bunch of Black-phobic cops. The kind who did not hesitate/even for a moment/to consider the fact that #1. the man before them might not be 'the suspect' & #2. he might not be armed. These were the type of cops who shoot 1st & ask questions later. And the fact that the defense was cunning enuf to put the cops up on the stand & have them testify -- one even broke down in tears -- abt how frightened they were & how quickly everything happened/certainly made it easier to be sympathetic towards the police. I do not hate the police/but as a rule/I do not trust them either. But I have no sympathy for rogue cops/becuz anyone w/a badge & gun has to be held to a higher standard than the avg. citizen. If they aren't smarter/calmer/more lucid/& better at assessing dangerous situations/than the avg. schmuck on thes street/they shdn't be on the job. My father spent 22 yrs. w/the Brooklyn North/many of them as a uniformed patrolman/then later as a detectivce. In his entire career/he never killed anyone. He only had to shoot a suspect on 3 occasions -- & in all 3 cases/he did NOT shoot to kill/but only to disarm someone who had pulled a gun. (And on 2 of those occasions/his partner was not at his side when the shit got hairy/so he had no one to get his back.) If those shootings hadn't been cleared as by-the-book acording the the rules & regs/my father wd have lost his gold shield/even possibly his job. I aksed him abt those shootings once/shortly after he retired. And he told ne that "A smart cop almost never has to use his gun. Yr brains, yr mouth & yr experience are what give you the edge over the crooks. So long as they aren't high on something/you shdn't have to shoot anyone to arrest them. But that's why I retired when crack hit NYC." Unfortunately/NYC Mayor Guiliani has promoted a laissez-faire attitude amongst the NYPD. Many of them now believe they "own the night"/becuz of the Mayor's efforts to eradicate crime by hiring more cops/approving 'racial profiling'/& giving them the green light to be more aggressive than ever while on the job. If my father w/no college education/the son of a Baja immigrant/a man who grew up in the streets of Brooklyn/cd have the skills & common sense not to mistake a wallet for a gun/& not to assume that a man standing in a dark vestible simply *had* to be the suspect/why cdn't those 4 police officers be just as competent? This will sound crazy to some/but for me/a cop is very much like a doctor. When the doctor is squeezing yr breast & feels a lump/he's not supposed to say "Oh, it's nothing." He's supposed order a mammogram/double check the results/& if there's ANY question/he is supposed to err on the side of caution & order a biopsy/to be sure that lump is not cancerous. If the cops are pursuing a suspect/esp. a suspected w/no past history of shooting his victims/before they show up at his house/they're supposed to confirm the suspect's address by checking phone co. records or utility co. billings to verify that the man they're looking for at least claims to reside at that particular address. They are supposed to inquire with neighbors or bldg. supers as to whether or not someone named Joe Blow lives in such-&-such an apt. They certainly are not supposed to roll up on the suspect in his vestibule/draw their weapons before they've gotten close enuf to i.d. him/then start firing becuz someone shouted 'Gun!". The cop/like the doctor/has someone's life in their hands. They have an obligation to err on the side of caution/in order to preserve that life. But when anyone walks into a jury box/they bring all their beliefs & prejudices & opinions w/them. And if you are a Black person who is of the mind that you are somehow different than an African immigrant/if you believe that the cops in yr area are benevolent peace officers who wd never harm you/if you'd had no dealings -- positive or negative -- w/the police/or if you are fearful of having to continue living in a predominantly White community after being a holdout for a guilty verdict & causing a hung jury/then it was easy to buy the cops self-defense argument. The judge can instruct jurors to disregard X & consider Y all he wants. Potential jurors can sit there w/straight faces & claim they are capable of being 'fair & impartial'. But what is in people's hearts & minds rarely changes while they're in the jury box. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Anyone know how many bullets are in a standard NYC caop sidearm? 41 divided by, what, four? four cops = ~10 shots per cop. How fast can you get off ten bullets? How many bullets does it take before you realize none is firing back at you? For that matter, how many bullets are in a clip? if less than 11, somebody reloaded. Negligence at the very least. These cops have no chance of being effective in any community they work in anymore. Not that they should be working in any community as peace officers. Still, I would really like to know why the evidence was considered not beyond a reasonable doubt. 41 shots!

I'm a firefighter, volunteering in a very rough area. My brother is a police lieutenant. My other brother was a sheriff's deputy. I'm an upstanding, middle-class, upper-income taxpayer living and working in a wealthy, functional jurisdiction. Due to the FF license plates on my car, I'm almost immune to traffic and parking tickets. I hate cops. Whenever I see one, my reflex is one of paranoia. I have never had a single encounter with a police officer where I came out better off than before; the best I can hope for is a neutral outcome. There's something badly wrong if a guy like me has an antogonism towards the police. And it comes from the cop's us-vs-them mentality. It's not us-the-civil-society against them-the-malefators, either. It's cops versus the rest of the world. And it's not just in the major cities where a cop fears for his or her life daily and develops a seige mentality. Becouse of both of my brothers and my own FD credentials, I'm welcomed into the PD in my small Iowa hometown, where they let down their guard around me and talk freely. The mindset scares the hell out of me. I wouldn't get too riled about the officers in this particular case; their careers are over, and they're going down in the federal and civil cases yet to come, just like the Rodney King case. And you don't have to have any sympathy for them to be troubled by the de facto double jeopardy triggered by political pressure warping the pursuit of justice. However flawed that is, the injection of politics, no matter how much they coincide with yours, into the judicial process is fucked. Two technical notes realted to firearms: Contrary to Daniel's assertion, almost no cops routinely carry automatic weapons, nor do criminals for that matter. And to answer Semillama's questions, most 9mm clips are going to hold twelve or thirteen rounds, with the option (common among cops) of keeping another (unsafely) "in the pipe".

Cops scare the shit out of me,I use to look up to them,I also use to think there really was a Santa and a Easter Bunny.There are good ones and bad ones,but power corrupts,look at the L.A. police,and it,s no better here.

the cops here blew a guy away, firing far too many rounds into him. he was a retarded homeless man whose crime appeared to consist of walking toward the officers in a threatening manner. he was talking nonsense & the officers didn't like it. the community was overjoyed, of course. the officers were instant heroes. those homeless people have some nerve, living in the woods around here like a bunch of bums. serves 'em right.

When I first moved to Albuquerque the police were under figurative fire for shooting to death a mildly retarded man for the crime of threatening to kill himself by holding a butter knife to his throat. Nothing came of it, of course.

'protect and serve' cops are allowed to carry sidearms because sometimes a sidearm is needed to protect the population. cops should not fire first to protect themselves. ever. you cannot both protect the innocent and kill the innocent. i don't think this crime (diallo's murder) was racially motivated. i think there is something to "it's a wallet in a white man's hand, a gun in a black man's." what if they were in a neighborhood looking for a sixteen year old white girl who'd just shot a 7-11 clerk to death in the commission of a robbery, and instead accidently killed the innocent daughter of some white congressman? the four would hang. therein lies the racism.

I really hate the cops that try to give you a ticket by riding your ass all the way to town, that gets me most paranoid. I once e-mailed the editor of High Times magazine to ask where he got all his information on corrupted cops and he said a couple, but all I can remember right now is firecongress.com. He had a really good article of disinfo.

so, the fore person of the jury, an ex-Bronx native (black female for those of you keeping score) said the murder was not racially motivated. I say murder because killing an unarmed man under any circumstance is murder. In this case, it just got sanctioned, that's all. I'm not sure if this crime was racially motivated, at least consciously motivated. I think it's more likely (and also scarier) that it's become unconcsious thinking for cops to associate black males with danger. How much of this is due to racism and how much to on-the-job experience, is beyond me. I also don't think the cops would have been so quick to blow away a white teenage female, even if they knew she was probably packing and dangerous. let's hope they get screwed in the civil rights case.

A 280-pound steroid freak on PCP has his hand around your neck crushing your larynx. He has made plain his intentions to kill you. You have a gun in your hand. So it's murder to kill this unarmed man? The right thing is to just oblige him and stop breathing? A man breaks into your house in the middle of the night. You confront him in the moonlight with a gun. He points his gun at your young daughter. You shoot him, and then find out he only had a realistic-looking toy gun. You've just murdered another man? You're the inventor of a new time machine. Firswt test: zap back to a small village in Austria circa 1926 and check in on a certain young A. Hitler. He's sleeping, so it's a simple matter to crush his skull with a handy rock. That's three hypothetical men you've murdered; what are you, some kind of serial killer? It's one thing to have strong emotions about an inflammatory situation, it's another to make wild statements, create public policy, or act in a life or death matter based on these extreme emotions. That is exactly what caused this tragedy in the first place, and that is what is going on here. Hate, fear, and anger (whether justified or not) in the absence of complete knowledge of the situation is triggering wild statements, instead of calm, cool judgements. The mob mentality is a bonus. It's a good thing no one's life depends on white letters on a black screen, or there'd be a lot more court cases going on here. The cops in this case were wrong, and an innocent man died. I hate cops and their seige mentality (see above), but I can understand it somewhat. When you wake up every day knowing that someone's out there in a very bad world who might try to kill you today, and then you get in an frightening, ambiguous situation where your partner, one of the only people in the world who's going to watch your back, yells that you (and he) are in mortal danger, it takes some very strong training, loads of experience, and something deep inside to not do what a gallon of adrenaline slamming into your brain and a million years of evolved fight or flight reactions are screaming at you to do: save your own life. I lived that scenario for a couple years. I thank God I never killed anyone, whether in self-defense or under more ambiguous circumstances. These four men are screwed already in very many ways. They will be screwed further. I take no pleasure in it.

Good point above, Markus. Murder in general is a bad thing, and I don't think it's fair to blame policemen solely, since criminals carry guns and murder too. Not fair to expect just one side to disarm, right? Right. Guns are silly. The time machine example--I've always taken an interest in looking at hypothetical examples like that. I think that every moment in time is crucial--perhaps if person X hadn't offered person Y a cup of coffee in diner Z at such and such a time, I might not be here today--I think that everything hinges so closely on other things that much as I hate Hitler and his crimes, I think he was crucial in today's world. Um. Maybe that's just me. I'm not trying to seem anti-semetic or something here--just a thought. Although, looking at today's world, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing to change...anyway.

I've always wanted to gather all the most scariest, goriest movies I could, hop into a time machine, go back to about the time when talkies were first brought into theatres and play them, just to see what they'd do and do to me.

Murder is murder, even when it's justified. A rose by any other name... I'm not saying you shouldn't murder someone if the circumstances mean your life or the life of someone you care about. You can call it something else if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't make someone any less dead.

Murder is a precise legal term defined as "the unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice." It specifically distinguishes between justified and otherwise, and saying so doesn't diminish the death of the other human being. The law recognizes intent, as well as nyriad other circumstances. I think the general word you're looking for is "killing".

Not if I want to call it murder. Now it's Official SubGenius dogma. Until some other SG says something to the contradictory. "He needed killin'" -alleged sucessful defense in KY murder case

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

fuck'em if they can't take a joke

PULL THE WOOL OVER YOUR OWN EYES.

I'm with Isolde. Even the tragedies sadly are often necessary or make us better people in the end. I was just reading in Ms. about this really cool woman who is a lawyer who drives around in her car and provides free counsel to women who are domestically abused in Vermont. 'Have Justice Will Travel', Of course she was abused as a child, had a mother who was abused, and without that in her past it does seem improbable that she would be there helping others now. I'm obviously not in favor of say - mass murder etc. but the time travel issue means that sometimes by stopping one person you're ruining the lives of others. I mean you can shoot Hitler, but what if through that action you enabled someone else to get in power whose insane vision SUCCEEDS?

An insane vision that causes the deaths of tens of millions of people, destroys a thousand years of European Jewry, opens the door to the enslavement of half the world's population for the next 50 years, and requires the combined efforts of the better part of the rest of the world seven years to stop it is considered a failure? What kind of vision would this other potential person have to have to be worse? And what else could they do to succeed; are you saying Hitler wasn't really trying very hard? It's really hard to imagine a downside to killing Hitler, or a scenario that would be worse than what was prevented.

Of course I'm not saying that Hitler wasn't trying very hard. Don't be so reactionary. But if you can't imagine what the world would be like if the Axis (hey, let's give credit where credit is due - gotta love them allies!) had WON WW2 then your imagination is stunted. They lost. Jews, Homosexuals, and many other groups which they wished to dispose of entirely are still here. Hitler may have been evil and insane but in the end he just not effective enough to have us all speaking German and combing our long blonde flowing locks today. If there had been someone else as Fuhrer at the time though, how do you know that they would have lost the war? Things could be way worse and neither of us would even be here to have this little philosphical debate. Of course they could have been better too, we simply don't know what would have happened do we? This of course leads to the idea of what if you killed the person who invented the Atomic Bomb? According to lots and lots of Japanese families slaughtered needlessly at Hiroshima that wouldn't have been a wasted murder at all. I reckon it all matters what side of the fence you're on.

Thanks DN. Ok, check it out--the reason we can't change history is because every little thing we do changes the future forever. Thus, it might be impossible for us to change history, since we might never be born if we pick up a pint of beer at some Renaissance party in the past. Hitler was evil. I'm very glad he didn't succeed, and the death and suffering he caused were very sad. However, I understand and respect why he needed to be there. Bleh. Brain no work.

Why izzit so easy for all of you to segue from discussing the exoneration of 4 cops who repeatedly shot an innocent Black man into all sorts of hypothetical bullshit abt having the chance to kill Hitler/or shooting someone who broke into yr house? Why do you fall so quickly into turning yr backs on the real in favor of toying w/fantasies? I don't expect many here to feel the same was I do abt the death of Diallo & the vindication of the cops who killed him. The only real drawback to hanging out here at Sorabjiland is that when shit like this happens/I always end up drifting alone on some island of the Perspective of The Other. I feel very Black at times like that. And I feel the void that my Blackness creates btwn how I see shit that happens in the world vs. how most of you see it. But I'm old enuf to choose my own playgrounds. So I'm gonna ask you/my fellow playmates/to indulge R.C. a bit/for old times sake. Let's engage in some REAL mental excercise. Let's see y'all try to reeaaallllly stretch those oh-so-vivid imaginations & wonderfully clever minds of yours/to reach into the realm of some 'What If' shit that might really effect YOU. And if you don't wanna play/fuck you. And if you don't like the results/fuck me. But I had to try. Ready? Think back to February 1999. Remember/if you can/ where you were on Feb.4 of last year. At university/getting back yr grades from last semester? Working at a job you hated/or starting a new job you loved? Moving to a new city? A new apartment? Buying a new house/or a new car? Think abt who was a part of yr life back in Feb. of last year. Who were the people around that you cared abt? Who were you screwing? Who were the people you knew that got on yr nerves? What was happening w/yr mother/yr father/yr siblings/yr friends? Who had a baby around that time? Who found out they were pregnant last winter? What was yr life like/the shit-&-stringbeans everyday b.s. of yr existance/during Feb.1999? And think back to Sorabjiland in Feb. of '99. Were you spending a lot of time here then? Were you just lurking & reading posts? Were you actively involved in any of the threads? Were you touched by a story Mark posted? Or just delving into Sorabjiland for the 1st time during the winter of '99? You can easily search the boards to refresh yr memory. Now... think back to where you were on Feb.4 of last year/or soon thereafter. Think back to when you 1st heard abt a Black man being shot 19 times by the NYPD while standing in the vestibule of his own apartment bldg. A Black man w/no criminal history. Now warrants. No past arrests. But it turns out/as the story unfolds/that the man who wa shot wasn't a 22-yr-old West African immigrant. It was Martin _____. Our very own Blindswine. Think of all his rants here. All his jokes. All his James Brown quotes. His inimitable barbs. Shots he traded w/Nate & Agatha & Dave/back when he was still calling himself Dave. Think abt all the times some shit Swine posted made you laugh so hard you nearly peed yr pants. Abt all the music he turned folks on to. The crazy stories he posted abt MonkeyBoy & his other friends. Think abt Swine & what his participation in yr life thru this medium has meant to you. How wd you feel if it had been Swine that those 4 cops had gunned down? How wd you feel if that innocent Black man who died in a frenzy of police bullets had been someone you knew - personally or virtually? Now -- think abt how it wd make you feel to learn that a jury had exonerated the 4 cops who killed Swine. Wd you still think it was just a 'tragic mistake'? Wd you still find it so easy to put yrself in the cops shoes (as the judge repeatedly instructed the jurors to do) rather than putting yrself in the shows of a dead Black man (which the judge NEVER ONCE instructed the jurors to do)? Think abt the sound of all those "Not guilty" pronouncements ringing hollowly in the courtroom/as Swine's mother & father & brother & sister sat there/stunned. Outraged. Incredulous. Think abt what yr views on 'justice' wd be then. Wd you still be so philosophical/so willing to turn away from the subject at hand & wander off into useless speculation abt Time Machines & Hitler & killing the creators of the Atomic bomb? Wd you still think Swine's death wasn't abt race? Or wd you be in Washington D.C. today/marching in front of the Justice Dept. bldg? Or wd you be sending a dozen emails a day to yr Congressmen & Senators/telling them it's time that we had stiffer laws & better standards for judging police conduct when innocent people are killed by the cops? How wd you feel abt 4 cops getting walking away free after killing an innocent Black man if that Black man were someone YOU knew & cared abt? The difference btwn yr perspectives & mine is that every time I hear abt an Amadou Diallo/I think of all the Black men I know living & working in NYC. Swine. My brother. My homeboy E.C. My ex Gary. My girlfriend's husband. Homies I grew up with. Brothers I met at bars or clubs whose names I don't even remember/but who certainly don't deserve to be shot down like a rabid dog. For me/someome like Amadou Diallo is not a random insignificant Black man extinguished from the world by the cops in a 'tragic accident'. For me/what happened to Diallo is a hairsbreadth away from being that horrible phone call you get in the middle of the night. Or that email that destroys you in the time it takes to read a few sentences. Or the sudden & irreversible disappearance from these boards of someone who's presence in the world matters to me. Even if I haven't met him. -------------------------------------------------- A hope at least some of you will take the time to search yr favorite news site -- CNN/ABC/NBC/the major newspapers -- they all gave extensive online coverage to the trial of Diallo's killers -- & read up on as much of the specifics abt this case as you can find/& think abt it a little more. CNN.com has a picture of him -- not the expressionless B&W photo most of Diallo most of the t.v. news organizations (intentionally?) chose to use/but a vibrant color picture of Diallo smiling/like a man who was looking fowrard to the future. I think the details of the trial are worthy of some additional attention on everyone's part. If any of you you actually know any Black men in the real world/the next time the cops shoot a Brother down in cold blood/in NY or LA or Chicago or Detriot/in any city where the police are allowed to behave like a pack of wolves/it cd be someone you know & care abt who gets killed next time. And until Whitefolks -- the ones who buy the politicians & make the laws & sit in the bench & serve as defense lawyers/& even ordinary Web-using White citizens -- until people like all of you here are as devastated & outraged as I am by those 4 cops getting off after killing Amadou Diallo/it WILL happen again. And the next time/it might actually happen to a Black man who matters to you. -------------------------------------------------- [And Swine -- pls. don't be pissed at me for using yr name & persona in this fashion. But you are one of the most charismatic personalties here. And the only other Black person I know of who frequents this place/besides Kymical. Who apparently did not consider this matter worthy of her comments.]

I retract my assertion that really was a hypothetical and unclear statement-- automatic vs automatic weapon. You are correct, M, and my point was as more criminals carry auto weapons the police are often undefended carrying a semiauto piece. Moreover, I think I was just trying to make sense out of an outrgaeously insane turn of events, an event of killing an innocent, and of acquitting the killers. The system is screwey: my father and his father were part of the system. And the persistent offenders I work with do in fact-- or did, I should say -- carry automatic weapons. There's not muich scarier than a cranked out meth head with a loaded piece holding it to her kid's head. There again, I have only small experience in the justice system, an experience that revolves around sometimes extremely violent drug-related crimes. My experience is limited to being threatened, shot at, burned out. All of which were explained away by the police upon report. I don't carry but I work behind locked doors with armed guards not very far away, and not even my boss knows where I live, or where my children go to school. I learned about those things in 1989. And I live in the safety of the midwest.

Theoretically, you could go way back in time, knock off a couple cavemen, and completely alter the history of world beyond recognition. Unless you believe that when it's steam engine time, it's steam engines, and when it's Hitler time, it's Hitler.

Uh, seems like R.C. posted while i was writing. my thoughts: Maybe we should feel empathy for every one who gets shot and killed, not just those killed by the cops. We should feel empathy for the gangbangers in L.A. and the grandparents here in Wisconsin slaughtered by teenagers, or this person or that person...I have stopped to think about what it would be like to lose a friend like that. It's not pretty, but I have. but how can you feel empathy for every homicide in this country without going nuts? How can you juggle all the horror in the world without losing sight of the things that bring us joy? What happened to Amadou Diallo was horrible. What happened to Anne Frank was horrible. What happened to those Chechen people I saw on the news last night, the clods of earth hitting their faces as the mass grave closed over them, was horrible. The looks in the faces of the people in Mozambique is horrible. (equally horrible is the slow reaction time the industrialized world had in responding) What happened to that little girl in Michigan was horrible (no one here seems to have mentioned it yet, or I haven't seen the post), and what happened to those folks in PA as well. Face it, the world pretty much sucks. That said, we don't need trigger happy detectives blowing away folks. Even if they act the completely wrong way (if what we read is what happened) when confronted by cops. I was living in the Detroit area when Malice Green was beaten to death. Everyone I knew, not just my black friends, were outraged, and a little more frightened of the Detroit PD. I know I was. How was I to know that the next cop that pulled me over decided i looked too much like a hippy radical and decided to prove some point? How was I to know if what happened to Malice would happen to one of my friends next? I belive that the modern career of police officer is highly conducive to producing mental illness in its members (due to constant stress). This issue will not likely be addressed anytime soon, because to do so would admit a major flaw in our law enforcement (which more and more people are noticing anyway). Maybe being a police oficer nowadays is almost like being a soldier, except your tour of duty is indefinite, and you never get to leave the front lines. I think we can all agree that the system is in serious need of reform - but in the environment many cops must work in, how? There are a lot of good ideas. My favorite is having the police live in the communities they patrol, and another is the decriminalization of drugs. I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, but this is sorabji.com, after all, and is to be expected (as are wild divergences off topic...)

Some links to stories abt the Diallo case: CNN ABC News MSNBC NY Daily News. (hmmmm... this link looks like it won't work. But you can go to http://www.nydailynews.com click on Search/Archives & type in Amadou Diallo from 2/4/99-3/3/00.) NY Daily News NY Post (FYI: CBS was left out becuz their site did not feature a search engine to locate stories on specific topics/which resulted in a very pissed-off email from me some time ago. Ditto for the Chicago Sun-times. The NY Times was omitted becuz you have to pay $2.50 a pop to access their archived stories. Newsday also charges to access past stories/so fuck them too.)

the thing is RC, NO ONE KNOWS what the real motive was for those cops, NO ONE KNOWS exactly what Diallo did in those last moments. NO ONE KNOWS except those four cops. Excessive? Yes Did they honestly feel they were under fire? NO ONE KNOWS EXCEPT THEM Are these cops justified with 41 rounds? NO! Do any of us have any idea what might have been going through their head? HELL NO. Since no one here is a cop, we can only speculate on what it is like to be a cop.......look at the shit they have to deal with, they are humans like you and i.....NO WONDER THEY ARE TESTY!! They are being shot at, run over, spat on, yelled at and so on.........Didn't at one point, firefighters in Brooklyn get shot at? Didn't I read that at one point? These are fire fighters...imagine the daily scrutiny even good cops must pass...... What we need to demand is a higher grade of cop. Clinton promised in 92 to increase our police forces and community policing....he did, but at what price of integrity? LA being the greatest example. Who called this thing a "tragic mistake"? Tragic yes...mistake, accident, intentional, racist....WHO THE FUCK KNOWS...and anyone pretending to have this insight is fooling themselves with emotion. If this had happened to swine, I'd be up to bid on his record collection.....ok seriously.....I would be just as upset as I am about it, I would also be a little more sad at the loss of life from my life......like sem said, if we bogged ourselves down with all the worlds tragedies.....we would all be locked up. Thats not to say justice should go by the wayside.......

I'm sorry, but I can't get upset about every murder/injustice/terrible thing that happens in the world. It is too time consuming. Half the time I don't even bother watching the news, and maybe it's because one thing that communications school drilled into my head is there is no such thing as unbiased media and so I know that the spin of all stories is just the spin. Call up Noam Chomsky and he'll tell you about all the bad things happening in the world we don't hear about because they're not sensational enough. Maybe to some it will sound callous, but to be honest, I save my tears for people I know. Right now I have a friend who went into the hospital 3 weeks ago for ELECTIVE surgery. "99% pass with flying colors - home in a day". Except my friend. He had 3 strokes the next day and now he can't talk, can't move. No one knows if he really knows you're there or not when you're in the room. No one knows if he'll ever come back and be himself ever again. He was a long time acquaintance, and now I think about him. All the times I thought he was annoying, all the times he was funny or sweet. I can't believe he might never come back. It seems surreal. I can't minimize the problems of the rest of the world. Of terrible violence that happens for no reason to people who have done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The BBC every morning has another story about the rapes, the murders, all over the globe. And you know what? There is nothing I can do to stop the war in Koskovo. There is nothing I can do to stop an innocent black man from being gunned down by cops. And there is nothing I can do to guarantee I'll ever buy my stroke victim friend a beer or wince at his terrible jokes again. But I won't hear that I'm an insensitive whitey just because the last one is at the front of my mind.

furthermore RC, i kept up with the trial and the facts for quite sometime. I have plenty of time to cover the newspaper (cnn.com) from top to bottom 10 times......... and after reading all of the facts and testimony offered to us by the press i can defnitely NOT conclude the following..... -he was gunned down because he was black -the extensive search the cops were supposedly making for a rapists was a cover story -the judge was biased when he asked the jurors to put themselves in the cops shoes as opposed to Diallo's shoes, (after all the cops' actions were the one's on trial, right? what would the jury accomplish by themeselves in the shoes of Diallo?) -The case was moved to Albany for a racially motivated reasons as opposed to judicial reasons. (Would a fair trial be possible in the Bronx with all of the emotion involved? who knows. If the case and a guilty verdict depoended soley on local how just would that be.) -the jury was biased and even racist - the cops are racist One thing about the jury, the jury goes through extensive selection by both sides of the case, they are allowed a certain # of dismisals after asking a series of questions. Also, the whole idea behind a jury is that the collective age and experince of 12 people is by far wiser than that of one......i totally agree with this idea and believe it to be one of the better judicial systems in the world, despite OJ, Rodney King and this case........there has to be circumstances and provisions in the law regarding this case that we are not hearing. You also made a comment about the cunning-ness of the lawyers to put the cops on the witness stand. HELLO, it's their ass in the sling, they have aright to tell their side of the story..... and fianlly.......this bugged me the most "Becuz even in the 21st century/even despite the Internet & places like this/very little in America has changed in terms of the way most Whitefolks view Blacks." you have knowledge of the collective thought of white people? and dinner lady, the conversation you were having with others about hitler blah blah was not offbase, irrelavent or silly......so fuck that, talk about what you like......

regarding the shot 6 year old........they are charging the brother and uncle with manslaughter. This case is APPEARING to become a racial issue....for this reason..... What happened to the grandpa of the boy in arkansa who shot up the school there about a year ago? the boy got the gun from his grandpa.....what about the kid in oregon? Are they prosecuting the 18 year old who got the guns for the Columbine case? What about the kid in Conyers GA who shot up his school? Where did he get his gun? Are they holding these people responsible? It seems to me, in this case of the 6 year old, we were salivating for justice so badly they rounded up the relatives immediately, but what happoend in the other cases? Does anyone have any info........?

Ye, they are actually prosecuting the guy who bought the guns for the Columbine kids.

On August 29, 1999 in Brooklyn, NYPD officers shot Gidone Bush 12 times after he waved a hammer at them in broad daylight. Bush was mentally ill, and the police had just been called there an hour before, so they knew exactly what they were dealing with. The officers weren't even charged with anything. Does Bush's death mean nothing because he was white or because he was Jewish? Three days later in Brownsville, TX, two former police officers were acquitted of all charges of murder in the death of Laura Lugo. One who was having an affair with her hired the other to kill her because he thought she was making calls to his wife. It turned out to be his other mistress, who pled guilty to murder and testified against the other two in exchange for a 20-year sentence. I have yet to see any wailing for Laura Lugo. On the same day, a man in Milwaukee was given a 21-year sentence for shooting his cat when it hissed at him. It's impossible to personally grieve for every single person in the world. But each death is as tragic as any other. To say that a murderer deserves extra punishment because the victim was black, or white, or gay, or rich, or anything else that makes them somehow worth more than another person, is wrong. And anyone who says otherwise is in no position to call others racist or insufficiently sensitive to their favored group.

On the same day, a man in Milwaukee was given a 21-year sentence for shooting his cat when it hissed at him." Justice exists in Wisconsin. I actually have one more reason to like this state. R. C. I just want to say I understand your strong emotions about this case and respect them. ( even though I have to say that a statement along the lines that White people in this country still regard Black people the same way as they did in 1650 is patently ridiculous. Although across the board, perceptions on all sides of the other need to improve.)

recently another black man was gunned down three blocks from where diallo was shot and killed. this wasn't race motivated, though. the cop was hispanic.

What about that black man who capped all those white folks because he fucked his door up and they sent a black and a white guy to fix it? Looks like racism is not something just white folks have.My grandsons grammpy is black he never even thinks about it he just loves him.

i think we need to stop looking at these cases as race based. yeah the guy was looney and was ranting all of this crap about killing whites.....but the point is, he killed 2 peeps..... i agree with Markus wholeheartedly.....i think hate crimes legislation is a silly pander to american emotion, what does that say about the current murder laws, why should someone who killed over race be treated more harshly than someone who killed his wife for cheating or whathaveyou? We need to start looking at these actions in more of a human spirit, not to get preachy, but it's just a waste of time amd empty emotion to play race, sex or whatever else into these crimes, and just look at them as crimes against humanity, period, end of discussion......

Score

the issue of why someone kills is extreamly important. just looking at the actions isn't enough. it's important to understand "WHY" people do what they do so that we can try to prevent it from happening again. there is a big difference between killing your wife for cheating on you and killing someone because they were born with a darker/lighter skin tone. niether is Right, but they are very different.

My gut/my limited knowledge of the case/& my life experience tell me this: If Diallo had been White/I don't think the cops wd have mistaken his wallet for a gun. THAT was a reflex -- A Black man = Possible Suspect = Reaching For A Gun = Open Fire On His Ass. One cop yelled out "Gun". But in their testimony/none of the officers admitted they had seen a gun. They all simply opened fire. Becuz none of them were of a mind set to hesitate -- even for a moment -- becuz there MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE POSSIBILITY THAT THEY WERE WRONG ABT HIM HAVING A GUN. Innocent Whites rarely seem to get obliterated by gunfire from the NYPD. It just doesn't happen. The reason for that/IMO/is beucz most White cops are usually willing to give a White male suspect that split-second benefit of the doubt that they so often deny to non-White suspects/whom they always believe to be Guilty/Criminals/A Threat. That split-second benefit of the doubt wd have made all the difference to Amadou Diallo. And when 4 cops excercise such poor jurgement in the line of duty/when their reflexive racism costs an Innocent Man HIS LIFE/they shdn't walk away scott-free. Becuz I live on the same side of the fence that Diallo lived on/I don't have the luxury of believing that race was not a significant factor in the events that lead to his death. That is my point. Nothing more/nothing less. And J: This thread wasn't abt the Brother who opened fire on all those Whitefolks. He was not a police officer acting in the line of duty. That's a topic for another board. Altho'in my entire life/he's only the 2nd Black man I can recall to make a rambo racist assault. The L.I. Railroad killer/back in the 80's/was the 1st.

as far as my comments on this, since it was mentioned. i was in new york when they said they were moving the trial. i didn't understand, so i perked up my ears. in the past weeks, i have seen people very angry with it all, and unfortunately it seems to be overshadowed by the sleaze fest of the presidential crap. and none of them are talking about it. in all honesty, i don't know how i feel about it. because in america it seems like things like this are the risk you run of living here. the justice system is in no way perfect, there are many people who are doing time for crimes they did not commit etc. and there are many who have died as well. tragedy is nothing new. everything is indeed dangerous. there is no real reversal of this process. just dealing with things on a day to day basis. me personally i have never trusted police officers. i think they should get real jobs, but i have been a delinquent (mildly) all my life. but you have to wonder who can you trust? and when that question comes to mind in such a grand sense, the answer is always no one.

Out here in Arizona the cops will kill you for no reason, black or white,but there has been so many cop killers here,they even set them up to kill them.I can see why they are so scared,as much as I,m afraid of them,there are good ones and bad ones just like any other kind of person,and they don,t get paid well for putting their lifes on the line every day.And R.C.,I,m sorry but black people are racist too,just the other day I was at the mall and heard two women ripping on their brother for going out with a white woman.The other Grandma of my grandson s/o is with a black man and I,ve seen how shitty his family is about it.My grandson loves that man,he doesn,t care about color he just knows his grammpy loves him.

j, i know what you mean. i love my people (if ever they wouldn't make fun of me for using that term) but they truly are racist at times, and a lot of times it is accepted. like "the man". to me and my no good gutter punk friends, that means corporate america, cause god knows they bring me the fuck down. but most times in black culture, that is the white man. it is along the same line as the word "nigger". there is a debt that the black people are looking for to be repaid by white people. not always consiously or directly. my parents will say hello only to other black people (as my father says "it is a sister, you know.") and tip black waitstaff better etc. if my family where white, this would be highly frowned apoun. i as a black female with skills that have not always been bestowed apuon others, feel held back by things that at one time had a time and a place (civil right etc.) everyone's eyes needed to be opened up about stuff like that. but really it seems that only black people are taking the credit and the benifits. you hear more about black people dissatisfied with the treatment based on color. our media doesn't give you updates on the american indian who is to this day being raped in their own homeland. imagine if some people came to visit you and you let them stay in your house and then one day they beat your family until you guys went out and staying in the back yard. what about people from the far and middle east? i think i have heard so many deragatory remarks about asian and middle eastern people. there are so many people who have a little voice impersonation of them. but if/and when people do that about black people (to some extend Ted Danson for example.) it becomes something all kinds of outragous and sensational. but black people have more than free reign to make fun of others and even not include other cultures into their activities. i was in new york trying to get a job. and my friend Masami (japanese) works at a thai resteraunt, i asked her if i could work there. and she said no, because the owner wouldn't hire me cause i was black. i accepted that. it is a personal preferance, he can hire who he wants. at least he would be honest about why. none of this crap of "you just aren't qualified enough" just to the point. i want to earn everything in my life. i want to hunt for food and a mate. i don't want stuff handed to me because the government is watching someone do something. that is bullshit. what was it all for if it really isn't sincere? and what good is it when now only a few benifit from it? the people who "oppressed" us now are overlook for jobs, college degrees cause they aren't black, and there is a quota to be met, etc. it is really freedom? is it really respect? what the fuck is it? and what is it doing in a handbasket?

Kymical,you are a very bright and beautiful star.

Just a hunch, but i would bet that if the economic situation in the cities was better, with good jobs available, racial profiling might be affected. of course, with the American Dream dead and buried, this will never happen.

Oh. That's what those people were doing in my back yard with shovels. Thanks for clarifying that.

no, those were people preparing the earth for the resurrection of the american dream. california's #1 cash crop.

Would that be pot?

HELL@! FUCK@! GODDAMN@!

(looking at election results) man, people suck!

that's what i've been saying all along. my political advice: if you feel the need to vote, don't vote for personalities, vote local issues only. and read about what's being proposed or please don't bother.

yeah people suck. how disappointing.

What he said. I just read a thing by Micheal Moore about why Orange County, CA, is the center of all evil on the planet. I think he's right.

is it online? i want to read it.

it's true, and yeah dave, you are right, i didn't bother voting, abnd if i had, it would have been for local measures only and even thats a farce.

I voted and I even voted in New Hampshire (where I grew up) because I love being first in the nation. Still my choice Bill Bradley is out so now it's the PMRC vs. SATAN in a fight to the finish. I can hardly wait to have my abortion rights taken away. Maybe after that I can go back to a life of being barefoot and pregs the way real women are.

I wanted Bill Bradley too,did you know he has the purple heart?

dave and patrick, you are both lame. i hate that no voting mindset, it's such a copout.

No, but it don't much matter now. Boo hoo. I can't believe he even lost NJ, that must be really humiliating. I honestly just can't believe how most of America votes, it's just unexplainable besides 'everyone is stupid sheep' and that's really unpleasant even if it is true.

that from a voting advocate who's too lazy to get her ass down to the registration office on time.

ha!

The Michael Moore thing is in his book Downsize This! which everyone should read. it may also be somewhere on his webpage. To paraphrase Moore, voting today is having to pick the evil of two lessers. I mean, if you could vote "None of The Above", there's no way ANY of the candidates could win. Who really wants to vote for Gore or Bush? I'm voting for Nader. I can't vote for either Bush or Gore.

in california, you can vote for "None of The Above"

no, you cannot. that proposition was voted down.

I never claimed that some Blackfolks aren't racists too. I'm just waiting for the day when Black cops can shoot down innocent White men & be exonerated by the legal system. THAT's my idea of "equal justice under the law."

it wouldn't get equal press. nobody would care.

ahh, i thought it was a prop passed sometime ago and this was the first election in which the option was on the ballot. RC, i noticed the fact that you capitalize "White" and "Black". why is that?

i knew you were going to say that, dave. regardless, i will vote again even though i didn't vote in this primary, and i am not a fucking do-nothing-about-it-except-whine cynic like you. ha back atcha.

oh yeah, your vote's makin a big differences sister. i stopped trying to do anything about anything a long time ago when I realized how futile my efforts were......so now, like dave, i just bitch. dave, lets do coffee sometime.

aiight!

Yeah. I'm kind of ashamed of living in California. What a crazy ballot. Let's discrimate against youth, homosexuals, and smokers. Free country my ass. I was so pissed this morning I didn't go into work. Argh. People suck.

oh yes, the greatest democracy on earth and only about half of you bother to vote. People have died for the right you are all so blase about. What a pack of hypocrites. If you don't vote, you have no right to bitch and moan about anything. If everyone who doesn't vote in the USA exercised their right to vote, you might actually change things!

I capitalize them becuz we capitalize Chinese or Italian or African when we're describing someone's origins. And I've never understood why Black & White aren't capitalized in the same way/so I figured back in college that I'd start a new grammatical trend. :) I had planned to vote for Bradley/but now I won't have the chance. Gore isn't a bad 2nd choice/but I'm hincty abt him ever since I found out he was rabidly pro-life -- up until he became a congressman. Sure/people can change their minds abt important issues. But it seemed a little too politically-expedient for me. And I wdn't want someone w/the power to appoint 3 or 4 supreme court justices suddenly deciding he's returning to his pro-life roots once he makes it to the Oval Office. But he's smart as hell & he knows more abt environmental issues than anyone in Washington. And I'm sure he's not the type to screw around on his wife. Plus/I'm old enuf to remember Tipper & her rants abt placing parental warnings on records. Which also makes me leery...

We have the occasional shithead pass through and post garbage here, but the only regular bigots around the place have been Oatmeal Boy, Lucy, and R.C.

NZA, so we agree that people suck?

is Prog somebody?

NZA, that sounds all really good on paper, but our system isn't as squeeky as it might be presented to you over there. Greatest democracy on earth? WTF? Are you familiar with our electoral college system? We are not a direct democracy, we have a represenative system. Our represenatives are some of the most pathetic individuals around. I think there was a post not too long ago about the credential make up of our congress and it wasn't pretty. Almost half had been busted for either drunk driving, drugs, spousal abuse, and various other crimes, (anyone, link please?). Most of our repesenatives are lawyers and bankers. Our represenatives have little interest in the people except in a campaign year, the rest of the term they are sitting in the palms of lobbyists, lobbyists are often spawns of corporate wigs with a capitalist agenda, which can compromise freedom and true representation. The notion people died for........thats sounds something similar to the rhetoric of the church.....thats empty emotion and means nothing. Also this crap about, if i don't vote, I can't bitch crap. Please, I live here, I don't agree with our sytstem 100%, voting 100% will do little to change that for a million different reasons, too cumbersome to go through here. The biggest one being, PEOPLE SUCK. I can bitch all i want, it's fundamental right, so poo you. I would be willing to bet, your country is more free and liberal than the states.

I would like to state, for the record, that voting is the absolute minimum a citizen of this country is obligated to. I have not always voted, but I take responsibility for that, too. People who don't vote are like people who don't drink beer because Budweiser and Coors suck. First off, because people tend to see our government as sort of like the consumer goods model: your choices are predetermined by the people with the money and capital to produce the products you are told you need to want. If all you want ad infinitum is a proliferation of meaningless choices, then not voting or just voting is appropriate. I don't think the consumer model is the one we want, and I'd suggest that the way to lock out the culture of consumption is with more cottage industry in both government and the creation of things people might actually want. Brew your own. And feel free to bitch, but don't be afraid to step up to the bat and admit you have no interest in being a decent citizen and creating the nation you want to live in. And, please knock off your self-righteousness about not voting. Not being a good citizen doesn't make you a bad person.

for the record, i have voted, i always consider voting each time around. this time , i am apathetic, the choices seem to be made, the media seemed to have made up our minds. it's hard to believe in the power of my vote. I can't believe anything i see or get in the mail about the various props and measures. Even the ballots are swayed, the State Secretary, who is a conservative, gets to decide the wording on the ballot, even thats partisan and misleading. i have no interest in being a decent citizen, just a decent individual. culture means more to me than nationality.

Margret, that was dangerously close to thought-provoking; please reread the Terms of Use and adjust your posts to the prevailing level of blather. That "expose" about Congress was exposed as bullshit, if it wasn't already obvious on the face of it. The New Zealand government needs video game players. Under law, each game sold in that nation must be rated by censors for sex and violence. So the censorship board spends countless hours playing games. The problem is that the censors often aren't good enough to reach the higher levels of games to see what's there. Lawmakers are trying to address this problem, and a leading idea is to hire expert gamers as censors. -- Reason, January 2000

American culture is inseparable from American government, in part because we are such a young nation. Talk to me about culture and taking pictures and art and tell me about your rights to freedom of expression without access to the American political culture. Even thinking that such things are rights is the legacy of the Anglo-American rights-based tradition. Shit. And I wasn't slamming. I didn't vote for Clinton, though I wanted him to defeat Bush, sr., because he had it in the bad and I didn't want to endorse him. I, however, am concerned with being a good citizen because I hope to leave reasonable expectations of the meanings of freedom better than I found them. I'm also concerned with being a good daughter, but it doesn't mean I don't occasionally make my mommy cry.

All those dumb-ass props coming out of California is exactly the reason everyone needs to vote. Plus, like Jello Biafra said, "It feels so damn good to vote down a sports stadium."

you sound like swine markus

re: stadiums and voting, didn't the city of Seattle vote down their new stadium, and it still went up?

not voting may not make you a bad person, but allowing george w. bush to become president does.

sorry, should have consolidated, margret, american culture, for the most part disgusts me. i fully realized this on the subway ride from atlanta airport to home after coming back from Paris. i don't align or attribute my freedoms of expression with our political culture. Our political culture is the facet i despise the most.

if your freedom of expression isn't guaranteed you by the political ordered of the United States, what is guaranteeing it? I don't want to be snotty, but the American Culture of Politics is a bit different from American political culture. Never mind, I am too well rested to go into pedantic mode. George W. Bush explains so much why Bush, Sr. chose Quayle as his VP. Seriously. It must've felt like a father-son thing. Creepy.

margret, i shouldn't have to have anyone guarantee my freedoms. yeah yeah yeah idealistic, blah blah blah i know. thats a problem i have with human nature all together. people suck. American Culture of Politics-your capitalization implies this is a book or doctrine of some sort, ihave no knowledge of this, if so.

No, it's not a book or a doctrine, it's the creepy shit that goes on inside the beltway. Why shouldn't you have to have anyone guarantee your freedoms? I don't believe in human nature, and I still think that when more than one person exists in the same geographic space it's better to have some sort of understanding of the limits of the power and responsibilities and rights of each. These understandings can be informal, but that does not make them NOT rules. Which is the joke of anarchy: even if each individual is self-regulating, they are doing so according to some set of ethical considerations they received from somewhere. That they are not uniform does not make them not rules. Fuck. Anyway, what I like about the U.S. system is that the rules are written down, hard to change, and value the rules themselves over the rulemakers. And they used to be relatively minimalist. And they were set up exactly to limit the powers and enumerate the responsibilities, with a little group of amendments stating how all of this related to the citizenry in terms of limits to power (the 9th amendment and the 10th amendment are not the same thing, my friends). The entire U.S. Constitution is set up based on the implied notion that power tends to grow and cement itself, and that it must therefore be limited. Sort of a hope for the best but plan for the worst deal.

so the US constitution is failing. and because of whiny liberal bitches who complain on one hand about their limited freedoms and on the other hand about the not-limited enough freedoms of others. and because of whiny conservative bitches who complain on one hand about the imposition on their morals and on the other hand about the limitation of the imposition of their morals on others. well fuck you all. i'm having a bongload and cleaning my weapontry tonight.

No, the constitution isn't failing. It is, in fact, not being enforced as the american social contract. We're supposed to be citizens, and the government's supposed to be limited. Since we're not being citizens, ummm, well....see, the problems with checks and balances is when they get out of whack they are a bitch to recalibrate, especially in a culture of entitlement.

and people wonder why people go on shooting sprees. so the problem is that people aren't voting. so instead of bitching, patrick, vote for christsakes. only you can prevent gun violence.

Who are you calling a bigot, Prog? And you certainly have no business using my name in the same breath w/Lucy's & Oatmeal's. Puleeze. Then again/if not being afraid to stand up for myself & my people when the cops get away w/shooting us down like dogs makes me a Bigot/then so be it.

what the hell are you talking about man.

me? why i am the insane.

yeah you. thanks for confirming the speculated

Hey now. We're all friends here. Voting always does feel kind of silly. I'm not particulary fond of the US or the way things work here, but I have some appreciation for things here. When I lived in Greece, we were placed under house arrest for a week, and then told that they "had the wrong people" and were very sorry. Argh. I guess things like that happen here too. How can I explain this. The US does suck in many ways, but it's difficult for us to appreciate some things. Argh. I thought about renouncing my US citizenship when I was in Ireland, but...we do have bigger guns. Blargh. There's a lot to be fixed in this country, and my state in particular. Fuck the French.

none of it will matter when china's through with us. we don't stand a chance against a billion psychotic jackie chans.

you know, I was arguing this exact subject with a co-worker today that if we set up that trade agreement w/China, it won't be long before the red flag isa bein raised over America. we really need to do coffee dave, we gotta map this shit out and start learning the chinese national anthem

I know the Chinese Alphabet song, does that help?

The only safe place is in the Himalayan foothills with the yetis and yurts. China - or California for that matter - both foreign countries. Tell me that none of the sorabjiteam have off shore accounts? Any sensible American would. What did the Red Cross say was the reasonable stockpile of 45 caliber ammo necessary to keep urban capitalist pigs from looting, I wonder???

you know, now that I know you have to actually make an effort to make your name all lowercase, it really annoys me to see people doing it. I always felt like the whole point of all lower case was to show that you can't be bothered pressing the shift button. it's all destroyed now that I know you have to push the space bar instead.

hey. you know where the door is. if you don't like it, buh-bye. china's gonna get you too. do you really wanna start alienating people because they like to push the space bar rather than the shift bar?

i don't like seeing my handle in upper case because it looks egotistical to me. besides, a D looks too much like the head of a penis ==========D 0 i like using "i" as a first person singular pronoun for the same reason (i know some have called it 'ineffectual'). and because it actually looks like a human figure. ....i.....ii.......i...i....... everything sorabjites do has deep meaning.

http://www.geekforce.org/~bix/voteordie.html

O. J. was framed. Vote Pikachu in 2000!

"[Note to libertarians:2 The Preamble explicitly suggests that government exists to actively secure and protect, via a social contract amongst all Americans, our liberty and our security -- not to get out of the way and let private interests run roughshod over the social, political, and natural environments of the nation.] " that's no way to make a point.

That's "no way to make a point"? It's the perfect way to make that particular point.

here's a song that was written for bush sr. good ideas always seem to stay contemporary.

"It's the perfect way to make that particular point." "not to get out of the way and let private interests run roughshod over the social, political, and natural environments of the nation" this is not the interest of the libertarians. and this: "amongst all Americans" is the real point.

So sue me for having an opinion. Our country isn't perfect, the politicians are mostly bent or stupid (some are both). From the outside, the USA is always presented as "the greatest democracy". I know it's not, otherwise you would all vote and be happy and shit like that. I don't know how many times the USA has got involved in military action to "save" a democracy from communism, but it is a few, I'm sure. From our perspective at the bottom of the world, the USA is the big bully, making sure they always get their own way, usually using democracy as a cover for their own interests (Iraq/Kuwait comes to mind as an example). When NZ declared itself nuclear-free, the USA was putting huge pressure on the goverment of the day to change their minds. It is even rumoured that they told our Prime Minister that WW3 was about to start and we only had half an hour to live. I don't get exactly how your electoral system works, but you have one, and every citizen should exercise the rights and responsibilties of citizenship. I know your system is corrupt, but at least on paper you have the means to change it from within, without resorting to civil war (civil _disobedience_ may be necessary). Not all people suck, but people with power never like to share it.

you got it right. We are a big bully, imperialist bastard, using the cloak of "democracy" to mettle in other countries' business for our own gain. Your damn right. i can't imagine why the US would give a rats ass if New Zealnd had nuclear technology. You guys seem self sufficicent and peaceful.If anything I would think they would encourage you to be nuclear free in order to keep an upper hand should your folks start any trouble. The eldctroal college is a system set up to act as a voting buffer. In essence, our popular votes, the votes we physically cast only account for a portion of the outcome.Each state has a handful of delegates/electorates, based on population size i believe. These delgates cast their votes based on THAT states popular vote. However, a canidate may win the popular vote nationwide but loose the race due to the electoral vote. basically the founders didn't want to give us the entire responsibility, so they created a complex and confusing system out fear of an igorant populus. I am sure marget has a better explanation, but the point is, our direct votes don't always count.

Not only are they "self sufficient and peaceful", they gave us Rachel Hunter :0) Thanks

You can hide behind the electoral college & make all the arguments in the world not to go out & vote. But it wasn't so long ago in this nation's history that being Black & female made it impossible for me to vote. I vote becuz I have an historical obligation to those who made it possible for me to have a right that White men so easily take for granted. Even if you write in Hulk Hogan on yr ballot & they have to toss it in the trash (they still vote w/paper ballots here in FL) EVERYONE shd take the time to go to the polls & vote.