Election Time Political Statement


sorabji.com: The Stalking Post: Election Time Political Statement
THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016).

By Trace on Thursday, August 3, 2000 - 01:13 pm:

    I am getting on the soap box for a minute.
    The presidential election that is forthcoming is very important.
    Goverment is in serious need of an overhaul, and we are in a lot of trouble. I do not think either Gore or Bush are a good canidate (here we go again).
    Business as usual, democratic or replublic, cannot continue. It is not working.
    Look at the current year so far.
    An industry that is one of the oldest in the US, Tabacco (By the way Al Gore is from a rich tabacco farmers family), has fallen prey to our law suit happy culture. Everyone has known that cigarettes are adictive, and knows that they can cause cancer. Anyone who says differently is a liar. Why sue for your own stupidity.
    Lawsuits being filed against gun manufactures for kids shooting other kids at school. What the fuck? Ever sue a car company for a kid stealing the car, joy riding in it, and running some one over? Better make sure you get the gas company that sold the gas that was in the car, the tire manufacturer, radio station that had a song playing on the radio at the time, the list could go on.
    Then there was the Microsoft Suit. Bad microsoft included their browser with thier Operating System, as well as other internet related software. Shame on them.
    Then there was gas prices. The countries we defend, yes the opec countries, are the ones who gouged us and charge us so much for oil (incedently we use the oil we purchase from them in our military vehicles to protect them), and the president knew about this a year before it happened and AGREED to it!
    Then there was Napster, federal injuction. I don't think I need to say a lot about that.
    What it boils down to is we have a society that does not take responsibility for it's own actions, makes everyone else to blame, but at the same time say no one is to blame for anything, and ignores the fact that our president pointed his finger to us and scolded us like five year olds and told us a flat out, point blank lie.
    Private Lives? Fine, but don't do it in a PUBLIC OFFICE!


By semillama on Thursday, August 3, 2000 - 07:28 pm:

    So what's your point?


By No Hope on Thursday, August 3, 2000 - 09:29 pm:

    "Business as usual" will continue until everything fails completely. There will be no democratic turn-around to any sort of rational/limited/ideal-in-any-other-way government. What's going to oust the gov't? The will of the voters? Read some Skinner, will is an illusion, a person _is_ his/her environment. And when the gov't runs the schools and convinces the kids that (a) the gov't is just fine the way it is and (b) reading is a chore, this leads the kids to (c) get their information from gov't sanctioned television stations and (d) vote for a democrat or republican, on the basis of term-limits or "family values" or any other number of non-issues. And don't even talk about FoxNews or the internet, the kids are kept waaaaaay too dumb to understand in-depth commentary or do their own research.

    Do I want the system to collapse in my lifetime? No. The populace is currently too dumb to come up with a worthy replacement. This may sound selfish of me towards future generations, but then again, I don't plan to have kids who have to deal with or fight against the system.


By Kindling on Thursday, August 3, 2000 - 11:00 pm:


By Antigone on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 12:36 am:

    Fuck the tobacco companies and gun manufacturers. I applaud the courts because they voice the will of the people. The tobacco companies are selling a product that they know kills people. The US taxpayer has to pick up the tab. Same with the gun manufacturers.

    And, as for the bullshit that is Skinnerism, why bitch about it "No Hope"? By your reasoning, you are just as manipulated as everyone else. You are just as brainwashed, just in another paradigm. So don't bitch about what you are, unless you want to look like a fucking hypocrite. But I guess you can't help it. You're just a product of your environment...


By Trace on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 10:27 am:

    Antigone,
    Congradulations, you win the biggest friggin idiot of the day award! Talked about duped and brainwashed. "The will of the People". People are suing companies due to the fact that they cannot be responsible enough to lock up their guns, or teach thier kids to keep their hands off of them. Period. As far as tabacco killing people get a life. When is the last time you took a big huge breath of air in any large city? You think that crap is healthy? We are all going to die of cancer, but it has nothing to do with cigarettes (my spelling is horrible today). The fumes spewed from Diesel trucks is 100 times more carcinigent that a pack a of cigarettes. Look at the haze in LA. Think if you go inside a building, the air is cleaner in there?????
    Brainwashed. Buy, sell, worry about little shit and ignore the freedoms that are being taken away in the name of "public safety & public health".
    Get all bent out of shape because there are no trigger locks on guns, but ignore the fact that the government has recently passed a bill that allows law enforcement agents to enter your home when you are not thier, take all the pictures and copies of your hard drive, and photo copies of any papers in your home, bug the crap out of your house and not even tell you for SIX MONTHS!
    I could REALLY go off about gun control, but I choose not too.
    Wake up! Look around you. We no longer live in a free democracy. There is not one true democratic nation left on the face of the planet.
    The will of the people, give me a break!


By Nate on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 11:51 am:

    fucking liberals. c'mon trace! let's go beat up a hippie!


By Trace on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 12:00 pm:

    AMEN!!!!


By patrick on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 12:59 pm:

    trace im here to defend that "haze" in LA. Its not smog, its a marine layer. Its a weather pattern..........youactually can't see most of the smog in the city. however houston and atlanta these days look like big piss pots.....the humidity iun both of those places seems to make the smog more visable.


By semillama on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 07:19 pm:

    so, are you just gonna bitch and moan, or are you gonna do something? (not you, patrick) If not, fuck off. The whole "I know what's really going on and I'm so jaded but at least I'm not a sucker" thing is so last year.

    And are you saying that you're Ok with your tax money going to pay for cancer treatments for the peole who smoke, instead of say, the company that produces the product that has the cancer causing chemicals in it?
    Or are you saying that since these peole choose to smoke, they can pay for their own cancer treatments?


By Antigone on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 07:45 pm:

    Man, Trace, you just keep digging a larger hole for yourself. Do you have any data to back up your claims about the relative carcinogenic effects of diesel emissions and cig smoke (in hte concentrations people are usually exposed to, btw) or are you simply spouting some statistic you read on some pro-tobacco screed?

    And, about the government paranoia you're spouting, stay on the subject! If you're paranoid about the government reading your hard drive, get a copy of PGP and shut the fuck up!

    And, no shit we don't live in a free democracy! God, are you really so naive that you think we ever have? Please say so, 'cause if you're that stupid then you're not worth arguing with in the first place...


By Tired on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 07:46 pm:

    "Or are you saying that since these peole choose to smoke, they can pay for their own cancer treatments?"

    YES. Hell, were I born in the middle ages, there wouldn't be anything like healthcare, and I wouldn't have my meager salary garnished to pay for it. PLUS, with what little money I have left, I can hardly afford the university's health care plan. So I pay twice, for me and for everyone else. This is progress?

    Of course you should pay for fixing yourself when you fuck yourself up while knowing just how much you were fucking yourself up. This is so fucking obvious that if gov't funded healthcare weren't so pervasive, it wouldn't even be an issue. The gov't is people with guns. That's the only difference between them and everyone else; they have more and bigger guns. When you say the gov't should provide education/healthcare/public transportation, you're saying it takes people with guns to teach your kids, it takes people with guns to cure you, it takes people with guns to build a subway.


By Antigone on Friday, August 4, 2000 - 07:51 pm:

    Actually, it takes an idiot like you to make such a stupid analogy.


By Trace on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 01:05 am:

    Antigone, do you beleive it is the governments job to wipe your ass too?
    It is the individual's responsibility. They bought the cigarettes, they know goddamn good and well what they do.
    It is not the company's job to take care of that either. This whole notion of someone owes me something is, in your words, so last year.
    I don't have the numbers just yet on the effects of deseil fumes verses the effects of smoke, but I did see the shit spewing out of Allied Signal's stacks on their catalyst converter factory in port of Catoosa, OK eat the paint right off my aunt's new ford f150 in less than a year. What do you think it does to lungs? Funny, isn't it? A factory makeing a product that is supposed to help protect air quality being more dangerous than the fumes from a vehicle? What about the shit the people were dipping these ceramic parts in before they baked them? They had to wear environment suits for chrissakes, and it spilled all over the floor, and they hosed it off into a drain pipe that went into the storm drains. Think that cigarettes are healthier than that?
    As far as cigarettes causing lung cancer and emphazima, and tb....How many people never smoked a day in their lives end up with that shit? Tons. Oh, I know....second hand smoke. Always something handy to blame this shit on, isn't there?
    No, Mr/s Antigone, if you need someone to hold your hand and tell you when it is time to go to the bathroom, time to eat, time to go to bed, and what to wear today, you need to move back home with mommy and daddy, because in the real world, you are in charge of this shit all on your own. No one to clean up your messes. No one to pay your bills when you run them up. No one to pay your medical bills when you go play with snakes. No one to pay your hospital bills when you smoke and get cancer. Because you are a big boy and need to take responisbility for your selves and your actions.
    Because, originally, the goverment was set up to govern, not babysit.


By dave. on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 01:55 am:

    is there anything good on tv tonight?


By agatha on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 02:29 am:

    i hear cops is going to be good tomorrow night, it's a two hour special!


By Bell_jar on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 03:28 pm:

    "...gas prices. The countries we defend ... opec ... gouged us... so much for oil... incedently ...we purchase ... we protect them"

    protect them? we protect them because they have something we want. we don't give a fuck about them. they shouldn't give a fuck about us. damn right they should raise the price of oil. fucking americans, think they run the world. make them squirm a bit. but as spoiled little american people we think that the rest of the world should give us every god damn thing for far less than it's worth.


    "Of course you should pay for fixing yourself when you fuck yourself up while knowing just how much you were fucking yourself up."

    Someone has obviously never seen his/her mother dying from cancer. I'm certain my mother would never have started smoking if she would have known that she would be slowly dying in front of her children and wouldn't live to see her youngest daughter start school.

    "When you say the gov't should provide education/healthcare/public transportation, you're saying it takes people with guns to teach your kids, it takes people with guns to cure you, it takes people with guns to build a subway."

    whew... i see in the near future a cabin in montana, a person named trace, many many guns, and long rambling letters about the downfall of the government.




By semillama on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 04:06 pm:

    Yeah, this is definately either a person with no empathy, or just someone who types without thinking through it first, which I guess would ultimately go back tot he lack of empathy.

    Look, the governmetn should take care of people when they can't take care of themselves. Chalk it up to my voting democrat since 1990, but I think that if government is at all representative of the people, if it is in the slightest of the people, by the people and for the people, then the government, as a collective extension of ourselves, should take care of those who have nowhere else to turn, and that includes in my book the homeless, the critically ill and mental health care for people like Trace, who seems to be missing something basic in human nature.

    Of course, it's his right to deny such help.

    but i bet if there was a spot on his chest x-ray, he wouldn't be so quick to slap away any assistance from the government.


By semillama on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 05:39 pm:

    And on a lighter note:
    (from the joke section of www.rawilson.com)

    (and if Satan is still lurking about, he should pay attention to the second)

    I've always believed in the motto "God is my co-pilot," and now I have the chance to
    make it true for all of America by appointing Jesus Christ as my V.P.

    I would like to assure Americans of other faiths that Jesus will be serving in the capacity of philosopher, not God. Though the fact that he rose from the dead and lives on in the Kingdom of Heaven, and in my heart, does set him apart from most other ancient philosophers.

    Ever since I got off the cocaine, I've had a close personal relationship with Jesus, and I've called upon him -- this time not as Christ, but just as a friend -- to help America in its time of need. Having Jesus as VP will make a lot of things possible that I might not be able to accomplish on my own:

    Simultaneous tax cuts and massive spending increases
    A new "miracle-based" plan for universal health coverage
    Decisive advantage in foreign wars and diplomacy
    Greater legitimacy on my death penalty position

    Remember, a vote for Bush is a vote for Jesus.

    Buy Stuff.

    -- http://www.gwbush.com/



    A Letter to Dr. Laura

    Dear Dr. Laura

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people
    regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I
    know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.
    1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as
    it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman
    while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the
    nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the
    Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    A friend of mine feels that even though eating
    shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a
    lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

    Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have
    to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    I know you have studied these things extensively,
    so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
    unchanging.


By Antigone on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 07:14 pm:

    Hey, Trace, thanks for revealing that you're an asshole. There's no point arguing with you, really...

    Have a nice day!


By Antigone on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 07:16 pm:

    ...but please continue to rant. It should be quite entertaining.


By Bell_jar on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 09:15 pm:

    ha ha
    ha ha
    ha ha ha.

    ahh ha ha.

    "I have a neighbor who insists on working on the
    Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?"

    damn it. that was funny. it was a full blown belly laugh. sem... i bestow you with a gold star. damn that's funny.

    and trace, i don't think you're a complete asshole, your opinion just differs from many others here. don't be discouraged. *bell avoids the montana hate list*


By Fetidbeaver on Saturday, August 5, 2000 - 10:49 pm:

    3 dead this week.
    2 from lung cancer.
    Funny thing is, after helping zip the body bag, we ran out back for a quick cigarette. Ahhhhh....the good times :o)


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 12:41 am:

    Whatever. Think what you want, vote want you want, and don't forget to have your daipers changed and your bink before you get tucked in.


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 12:50 am:

    "Hey, Trace, thanks for revealing that you're an asshole. There's no point arguing with you, really...

    Have a nice day! "

    Antigone,
    I am so disappointed. Can't you do better than that? I was so looking forward to such a stinging burn.
    Your respectful advesary,


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 12:58 am:

    Or maybe you are just picking up your toys and going home because you don't think I am playing fair?


By Antigone on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 01:16 am:

    No, I just think you're an idiot. It's that simple. Trying to paint it as an "Antigone is whining about not being treated right" kinda thang is kinda clever, though.

    Well... Not really.

    You can't be my adversary because you're not arguing. You're just throwing insults, and not very good ones at that. If you step up to the plate with worthy arguments, then we can get into the cage. Otherwise it's like watching you do "argument masturbation." That's fine, and all, but don't get the misconception that you're actually arguing _with_ somone else. There's only you in that little world of yours, sonny...


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 01:44 am:

    Well, I think you are an idiot too, so touche'.
    Tell me, if you can, what is the leading cause of death in the US?


By dave. on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 01:59 am:

    stupidity.


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 02:03 am:

    Hmmm, you may be right.


By Cat on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 02:09 am:

    I wish I thought you were right, Trace. I'd be more than happy to dive in and challenge Antigone to a wrestling match to sort all this out.

    However, you do have a point in your initial post about people continually bringing unreasonable law suits and not taking responsibility for their own actions. We had an interesting case recently where a man successfully sued a home owner for $500,000 damages because he dived from their fence into a canal and sustained spinal injuries. They weren't home at the time and he was trespassing. Now that smacks the law around a bit.

    It's just that tobacco companies are fair game...they make a dangerous and deliberately addictive product, they deserve to get the legislative shit beaten out of them.

    Ding, ding..round three.


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 02:32 am:

    Morally, you are correct, but legally, I would not think this should be possible. We have the FDA to spot these things, would tobacco companies be subject to them? On that issue, I can say I am ignorant.
    It is the same, in my eyes, as abortion. My own personal opinion is that it is immoral, but legally, it is a very hard subject to approach. I think it is murder, but no one can really prove that it is. And I doubt that they ever will.
    So, given that fact, then legally, it should be legal. After all, it is the woman's body, so it should ultimately be her choice. But who is to say for sure?
    Cigarettes are addictive, to that there is no question, but so is Coca-Cola. I cannot go a day without at least one glass. But as for the cancer causing effects, who can say for sure? You would have to have a controlled experiment consisting of a person who smokes and never breathes any air except pure air. Then watch and see if they develop lung cancer. Otherwise, there are far too many variable that a person is exposed to in the course of a lifetime to ever single out any one factor. It may be a combination of factors. Once again, who can say for sure?
    Alcohol is dangerous, and addictive. It is far more dangerous than cigarettes are, as it can cause instant death (intoxicated individual hitting a pedestrian), or prolonged death (kidney failure, among other medical complications).
    Cars are necessary these days in order to have a job. But, they are, without a doubt and without need of explenation, also deadly.
    For that matter, so are guns, lighters, bathtubs (you can drown in one), or bricks for chrissakes.
    So, you let one company be sued, where do you draw the line?
    Never start it. Get the word out about cigarettes (which they have), and, if successful, people will stop buying the cigarettes and the company will go under. Or, as is the case, the consumer will continue to purchase the product and eventually they may get lung cancer, which is same on them at that point.
    Don't tell them where they can advertise or how. Create some kind of law that directly affects they way they do business (make tobacco and nicotine the jurisdiction of the FDA).
    That is supposed to be the way capitilism should be.


By Antigone on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 04:41 am:

    Trace, I think your level of proof is too high. There is a definate correlation between smoking and lung cancer. Years of medical evidence bears that out. You shouldn't take the philosopher's way out. It's a cop out. Of course there's no absolute proof. There's no absolute proof that you exist. Tossing in bogus uncertainty is only an excuse to let people get away with whatever they want.

    About the FDA, On March 21st of this year the Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, ruled that the FDA can not regulate tobacco products as "drug delivery devices" supplying nicotine. I'm quoting heavily from this article which I think you'll find interesting.


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 10:51 am:

    Article was very interesting, thank you. Looks like more beuracracy


By Antigone on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 02:42 pm:

    What a canned answer: "Smells like beuracracy to me!" Now I bet you're going to start calling everybody bleeding heart liberals, or something.


By Trace on Sunday, August 6, 2000 - 11:40 pm:

    No, not bleading heart liberals. Duped, stupified, morons, idiots, and dumb, but not bleading heart liberals.


By droopy on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 12:40 am:

    when i become an old cripple i want the the guvment to wipe my ass, those bastards. and spoon feed me. and until such time i want free stuff: i want piles of jazz & blues cd's; i want lethal amounts of scotch delivered to me every day; i want hookers.


By J on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 02:17 am:

    Ah,Droopy,I love you,but put shit in one hand,and wishes in the other and see what fills up faster,so on that point I wish the spawn would make me proud.


By Trace on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 09:54 am:

    Not if the democrats have their way, J!


By patrick on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 12:34 pm:

    yeah but its a "marine layer"


By Satan on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 02:41 pm:

    HOMOS MUST DIE


By Trace on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 02:49 pm:

    Oh good lord, go the fuck away!


By Willy Nilly on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 04:23 pm:

    Ah, geez... now someone has to hit on Satan!


By J on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 04:49 pm:

    Satan,we saw South Park the movie,we know all about your "boyfriend".


By Satan on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 04:56 pm:

    FUCK SOUTHPARK, FAGGOTS!


By Zephyr on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 05:06 pm:

    Ugh. Idiot.

    Anyway, anyone else truly dissappointed with the choice of candidates that have the best chance of winning? And their running mates?

    Ick.

    Gore/Liberman is awful, as is Bush/Cheney.

    I wanna move to Europe. And bring all of you, minus satan with me!


By Trace on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 05:08 pm:

    I think we are in a bad situation again. I don't really see a way out


By Zephyr on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 05:20 pm:

    Pilate, mind if I make the first "move" on our "hot" little friend?


By Satan on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 05:28 pm:

    HOMOS HOMOS HOMOS HOMOS HOMO FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGOOT


By Zephyr on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 05:30 pm:

    Hmm...somebody needs a little stimulation on his prostate...


By 1 mavis 2 boots on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 07:32 pm:

    satan
    if you listen up, you shrimpy little pissant fuck, you will hear the sound of a big mavis boot headed right for your loud annoying ass.


    so shush! vamoose!
    get fucked! bugger off!

    FUCKING HOMOPHOBIC LITTLE BITCH!




By Cat on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 07:53 pm:

    Damn but you're cute when you're riled Mavis!


By Zephyr on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 07:58 pm:

    ::swoon::

    (!!!)


By Fetidbeaver on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 09:53 pm:

    I wonder if Satan is a friend of Lucy Phurre. (both a couple of dumbasses)


By Antigone on Monday, August 7, 2000 - 11:31 pm:

    Only if she's trolling the high schools in Kansas City, MO...


By Cat on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 04:57 am:

    It seems strangely appropriate that Satan is from KC. I've never been there but still...

    There oughta be a song "Satan Came From Kansas City", with some duelling banjos to add the extra hellishly torturous touch.


By semillama on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 08:33 am:

    So, see the predictiion that only 25% of eligible voters in Kansas are expected to vote in the primary?


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 10:00 am:

    I am from KC..... And I work at Birch. A different location


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 11:27 am:

    Freedom of Speech.
    One of the greatest gifts the United States promises it’s people.
    Freedom to say whatever they want without fear of retribution or punishment.
    The freedom to speak your mind. But, when does one go to far? And when do we inhibit this freedom?
    When something someone says is offensive to us? Or hurts our feelings? Or enrages us?
    But, if we were to do that, would we not be endangering our own freedom?
    Take the issue with this Satan person for example.
    What s/he said upset us all, was very offensive and made most of us (including me) very angry.
    We engaged in a hunt to find out where this guy was posting from so we could try to stop it.
    We hated what he was saying and how he was saying it. We felt it was done in an immature manner, and not in the best interest of the other posters. And if we followed through, then the offensive, hurtful, upsetting posts would stop.
    And I could not be more pleased.
    But, forgive me for playing the devil’s advocate (could not resist the pun), if we were to stop his postings, who’s else’s should be stopped? Today, it is something we dislike intensely. But what if it was decided that what I post or what you post was offensive and must be stopped? Is he going to be around to stand up for your right to post?
    In America, we are facing the same danger, and it is a grave danger.
    In the beginning we were on the right course. People were physically discriminating against blacks and other “races” (there is no true American race). Homosexuality was oppressed just as badly.
    We passed laws that outlawed physical discrimination, and that was great.
    We passed laws making it illegal to make employment decisions based on race or creed to be illegal.
    That was great.
    Now we are suing the hell out of anyone who says that homosexuals are wrong, or say anything that we find offensive. We publicly humiliate them and try to restrict their abilities to say these things.
    And now if they say anything offensive in the work place, they are fired and the company faces lawsuits.
    We disagree, including me, with what these people are saying. But if we restrict their rights, and make them afraid to say what they think, what will stop someone else from stopping what we say? Who will protect our rights? If we make laws saying it is unlawful to express one point of view, then must it not follow that all other point of views are unlawful?
    If we do not allow a race exclusive club such as the KKK adopt a portion of highway or contribute to a campaign fund, then should we also not the Black Panthers either? What about the Negro College Fund?
    Or the new law that allows an extra amount of money to be set aside for loans to small business owned by homosexuals?
    You endanger one side of a spectrum, and the other side in endangered as well. Regardless of your personal beliefs or feelings, you must support the basic freedoms.
    That is all I have to say about that. Life is like a box of chocolates…………..


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 11:31 am:

    Applause.

    Too true.


By Mavis on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 11:56 am:

    cute when i'm riled?

    wow. you guys should see when i'm really feisty!


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 11:57 am:

    I would like that


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 12:05 pm:

    I can only possibly imagine....mmm.


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 12:39 pm:

    I wrote a really long, eloquent responce to Trace's post. But I screwed the pooch and it's gone now.

    I think I was distracted by the idea of a feisty Mavis.


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 12:42 pm:

    LOL, it has us all excited. Escpecially when you throw in the cheetos and pasties!


By Mavis on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 12:45 pm:

    you are making me blush!

    yeep!


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 12:57 pm:

    We MUST see the feisty Mavis at the party!


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:04 pm:

    Here's my second try:

    Trace, I considered just that point before I looked into getting Satan's posting stopped. I respect anyone's right to an opinion, and their right to express it. Satan has every right to express his opinion that Homosexuality is wrong, and although I don't agree with it, I wouldn't try to stop him if he expressed it with maturity, more respect, and in a fashion not obviously designed to anger and offend.

    It's a grey area. I agree that america must be careful, and that it's not right to sue someone just because they speak out against homosexuality. Fortunately, this doesn't happen to most. Religious figures do so regularly, but because they do so in a manner not intended to harass homosexuals or to anger people, their speech is respected and protected by law.

    Although Satan has the right to free speech, we have rights too. It is perfectly legal to call anyone wrong, but it is not legal to harass someone. He is also violating the agreed-to terms of service from his ISP. I'm sure they would not condone such abuse issuing from their service.

    Satan's posts don't belong here. The groups you mentioned exclude people based on various criteria, and that's ok. Here at Sorabji, we tend to exclude imbiciles, trolls, and various immature thoughtless flamers. There are plenty of places online for his type.

    In short, free speech is the right of anyone with something to say. Satan doesn't have anything to say, he's just pissing us off.

    There. It's not as good as the first one, but I think I got most of the ideas back.


By patrick on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:06 pm:

    can we see a naked mavis?


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:10 pm:

    hahaha!

    mmmm


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:17 pm:

    I agree. This may be a more protected envirnment as Sorabji actually owns this site, so Sorabji should be able to restrict access.
    However, in a public forum, we should not choose what constitutes speech, and what constitutes just trying to piss someone off, that is a matter of opinion and judgement.
    Speech is speech is speech, regardles of what form it comes in.
    Again, I respect the wishes of Sorajbi, and please do not think I am defending that peice of shit in any way.


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:18 pm:

    Yeah, Naked!!!!!!!!!!!!!


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:19 pm:

    You're gonna make me lose another post.


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:20 pm:

    :-)


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:21 pm:

    But if she is naked, where is going to put the pasties and cheetos?


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:32 pm:

    You would think about food at a time like this.

    I'm not sure what that means.

    We haven't even let poor Mavis defend herself.


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 01:44 pm:

    This could get interesting...


By agatha on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 02:16 pm:

    here at sorabji? jeez, you make it sound like we're all the same. i think the imbeciles and trolls keep things interesting.


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 02:20 pm:

    WooHoo Agatha!


By Zephyr the Idiot on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 02:35 pm:

    Ouch.

    I meant more like the whole situation was going to be very fun.
    Never mind.


By Trace on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 02:45 pm:

    What situation?


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 02:57 pm:

    I stand corrected.


By Zephyr on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 03:00 pm:

    Ok. I am lost now.


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 03:07 pm:

    agatha was reminding me that I do not speak for all sorabjiites.


By J on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 03:30 pm:

    But she wasn't being mean about it.


By TBone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 03:49 pm:

    Certainly not. I made an assumption, and was corrected. No biggie. Ever notice how you always sound defensive in text?


By agatha on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 03:58 pm:

    yes. i hate looking for jobs, by the way.


By semillama on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 07:30 pm:

    One great thing about online posting is that the best and most effective way of dealing with some poor fool like Satan is to shun him, i.e. ignore and not reply to his posts. Then it's like he never said anything at all. Like with the Slick Willy cat, I just scan right over their posts, and what really hurts them is that they lose their ability to be heard, so if they ever woke up and made a valid point or argument, people would be so used to ignoing them, their point would be lost.

    You can post all you want, but that doesn't mean I have to read it.


By Antigone on Tuesday, August 8, 2000 - 08:36 pm:

    WHo decides what's offensive, Trace? I got your answer: I do! If I find something offensive I have every right to bitch about it. If that bitching happens to be focused for the greatest effect, say to a person's ISP, well then so be it. If that ISP decides to respond by cancelling someone's service, so be it.

    And, in answer to your question "Who will protect our rights?" that would be the ACLU, of course! :-)


By Gee on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 12:27 am:

    Trace - how old are you?


By Trace on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 09:56 am:

    27


By MapleLeaf on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 10:24 am:

    Good point Sem: but why didn't we use that tactic with Lucy? It would have been so much easier but not nearly as much fun :0)


By J on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 11:53 am:

    We should have done that till she got a grip on herself,I kind of miss her.She wasn't mean,I remember offering to mess with the guy that did her wrong and she didn't want me to.


By semillama on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 01:00 pm:

    Well, Luci was actually offering arguments that had some sort of twisted logic to them, plus were intelligent (in a mentally unbalanced way).

    Satan, on the other hand, was just an idiot.

    I will agree that the whole Lucy situation was fumbled by our little community. I sometimes wonder too what ever happened with her, if she ever got help. Maybe she was possessed by the spirit of Ayn Rand or something and had to get an exorcism.


By Fetidbeaver on Wednesday, August 9, 2000 - 11:37 pm:

    Satan never offended me, but reading someone say, "I want my severed head back" 30 or 40 times a day is just BORING.


By Spider on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 12:11 am:

    Do you think Lucy ever wonders if maybe she might have possibly overreacted there just a little, perhaps?


By Isolde on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 01:40 am:

    Maybe just a tad...


By patrick on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 12:10 pm:

    it doesnt matter were just sheep.....im fluffy for that matter



    bahhhahhhhhhhhhh




By Trace on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 12:11 pm:

    I like lamb chops


By Antithesis on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 04:41 pm:

    right. leaving for LA in 4 hours. will be there about 1 am monday morning. Send us good vibes? *nervous aura* We'll try to post our progress to

    www.sparkykicksass.com

    right. We're taking two laptops (between the four of us heading down) so we'll probably pop back in to annoy you as we go.

    It's really interesting, actually: as we prepare to leave, we discuss why we're going down there. Hrm. we don't agree on much, it turns out. Heh.


By Antithesis on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 12:06 pm:

    right. we didn't update, but not because we got arrested or anything fun... we were just too *censored* tired. Only thing that struck me about the whole thing was how some people seem to be there just to be there, not because they had any real personal/emotional/mental stake in the politics. Our entire group was pretty tame; Musashi was present for the After-Rage brouhaha, Kallisti and I got to cover a "bomb threat" for the indie media center that turned out to be a mass arrest of animal rights protesters, and Isolde had the dubious honor of being shoved by a delegate.

    Hrm. on the upside, we got to stay in hollywood. remind me to sell out sometime.

    Most of us got a bit of local newstime; nothing major.

    The Independent Media Center was the most inspiring thing I saw, really. They were all hideously biased, being both protesters and media for the most part, but they were also as fair as can be expected; frankly, much more honest than the big media. The raw devotion to doing what they were doing was incredible.

    I'm just gonna let this message hang, 'cause I'm
    *way tired*


By patrick on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 12:21 pm:

    where's the chaos, the police are walking all over you guys!!!! I too don't have a particular cause, so Im staying home, that and I feel like utter shit.....(hack!!!!!)


By Trace on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 12:33 pm:

    Wow, that pic looked alot like Philadelphia during the WTO meetings


By Nate on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 12:34 pm:

    shit. in 10 years ya'll will be drinking gubmn't gin and wondering why you argued the guns away.


By J on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 01:03 pm:

    Works for me.


By patrick on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 01:05 pm:

    hey if i can smoke gubmn't pot id be a happy guy, and i m sure your ass would be too, so don't knock the gin buddy


By Isolde on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 01:55 pm:

    It is from philly's republican convention.
    I didn't get pushed, I got _hit_.
    I just wrote this long ass post about it, and then it ate itself. At any rate, we have lots of war stories to tell over the next few days.
    Some us got national coverage, apparently. Someone said they saw Kalisti and I zieg-heiling the police at the Critical Mass arrest.
    Working with the IMC was really neat. I spent almost all day Tuesday monitering the mainstream media. So bad. So untrue.
    Also on Tuesday was the Critical Mass arrest, and the PETA thing. I witnessed that by accident. Somehow, all of us managed to be there and not see each other. I went to be support on the onb scare coverage, and then ran into the PETA arrest (and almost got snagged myself) when I realized nothing was happening with the bomb. What happened is that the police claimed bomb scare rather than mass arrests of protestors.
    I love the METRO. I mean, I wish the machines hadn't eaten all of Anti's worldy wealth, but it;s already better than BART. (Not like that's hard to do.)
    And I also want to know: why does LA reek of ass?


By Nate on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 04:31 pm:

    because LA is full of ass.

    i'm really interested in the truth vs. the media depiction.

    we need to beat TV.


By Tired on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 04:38 pm:

    TV already won.

    What's so bad about bart? It doesn't smell, usu. on time, I haven't gotten run over yet. . .


By Isolde on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 05:43 pm:

    LA has a better route.
    Well, that's what indymedia is about--beating corporate/wrong media. One of our chants, actually, was "fuck corporate media," when we were in the bloc. The bloc is portrayed really badly in all media, and it's really frustrating. Sadly, I think they will continue to be mis-represented.


By patrick on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 12:06 pm:

    the only time LA stinks is when i walk by a sewer......there is one strategically located in front of my studio....isolde, maybe it was the hippies and not LA, god love em, but it was hot monkey ass out there


By Antithesis on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 02:37 pm:

    heh. I'll buy that. I'm not at all hippie, but one nice police officer in riot gear was kind enough to inform me that I "reek... don't you guys ever shower?" It was great. I stood there for about half an hour while he talked shit at me. Very interesting reversal of usual situation... I'm not at all into trash-talking the police, because I don't see the point in riling them up, but most protesters feel like it's their duty to try to mock the cops as much as possible. Why is that?

    The heat in L.A. was GREAT! WONDERFUL! I felt comfortable outside for the first time in possibly a year. I hate living in the friggin cold. Guzzling water constantly and walking constantly in 100 degree heat is just as grand as I remember it. I really miss the valley, and that's my political statement for the day: Invent surround-clime (like surround-sound) terraforming and you'll get my vote.


By Isolde on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 02:38 pm:

    There was a lot of ass. I don't deny that. Actually, I'm surprised I could smell anything, the air was so bad. I go to LA all the time. Every time, I'm amazed at how much it smells like ass. Not like SF. SF smells like cock. Hard to say which is better. Actually, what's really bad is going through the valley--all the fertilizers really get to us. Anti and I were the only ones awake right before the grapevine, and it literally smelled like human excrement. NASTY. Nasty nasty. I'm spoiled on the good air up here.


By Isolde on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 09:25 pm:

    It was so fuckin' hot! Jesus. I don't know how anti stood up to it. I kept waking up drenched in sweat and goo.
    YUCK!
    LA is a grotty place. A very, very grotty place. I didn't like it at all. But now I keep looking for riot cops. It's very wierd to not see them. I kind of miss them. I wandered around on the street today saying "here, riot cop riot cop riot cop..." I see them every time I close my eyes now.


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