adam forgot begat birthed knew unknew came went fornicated with the earth the trees the ground we walk on trembling curled in balls fetus positioned in curls and question marks drinking lemonade and gatorade and koolade in the park the sun the jungle the plane lands the people shoot score shoot score shoot score this left right up down whenever however underwear under wear underwear eating shit fucking sucking wonderwear wonder where up for ever never lever trends falling complete this mything fucking sex shop looking then the way is the way is the falling shooting shitting fucking sucking god damnit iall fucking god damn. then they say they want they want they say sand then it up and sex fucking shit fucking eat fuck shit fucking; i am the ocean. disco discovery.

KEANU REEVES. ooo yeah muhfukah, it's that shit, oooooo, yeah, unh, mmm. you really really really fuck my kootchie and all i got to say to you wanna be gonna be cocksucking pussy eating pranksters is when the fire dies down what the fuck ya gonna do?

i'm hitting switches. what the fuck ya gonna do?

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hm. something chunky in my beer.

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Damn.... Whatever you've got, I want some. Sheeeeeeeit.

french disco frenhlaa diss co love dis co love dis co love. \ i'm dead to teh world.

wow. THAT explains it. nate, stop drinking. now. go play some video games. or read. or something. sleep might work, too...assuming you're in a US timezone...4 is a bit late to be up (est...) holy shit. it's 4 in the morining. crap. off to bed. or not... and antigone, what are YOU doing up?!? i thought adults weren't totally nuts...(wait...maybe youre one of those early riser people...)

oh, and by the way, this thread really needs to get deleted to heckkiters after you're done with this binge, ok nate?

like i have the power to control the destiny of a thread. I, LIKE YOU YOUNG ZEPHYR, AM BUT A MERE MORTAL. you have an odd view of adulthood. i think i did when i was your age. adulthood just means you do the dishes drunk. zeph, i feel like your father. no no no, keep your pants on. you need to learn, son, that alcohol is for drinking. drinking is how people your age socialize. if you don't drink, you're going to miss out on a lot of quality screwing. quality. quality is job one, son. and your job one, and your age, or any age, should be uncorking ladyfriends and slipping your meatmember into their EAGER BEAVERS. EAAAAEEEEGGGEEEERRRBBBEEEAAAAVV I CAN BE OF NO ASSISTANCE, PROVIDED YOU ARE PMSGODFUCKER. PMS, because "mad cow disease" was already taken. some guy told me that joke twice last week. he's a moron. chicks don't dig morons. at least, not the chicks you'll want. chicks dig confidence, son. it's as simple as that. throw in a little humor, and you'll be zipping your fly down behind the 7-11, with a slim jim in one hand, a coke slurpee in the other, getting your shaft manipulated by the agile tongue of a beautiful girl in uniform. i'm talking about a red polo shirt with 7-11 on the firm, round, fluffy, milkey tit. eat it well, son. eat her pussy with the tingle of slim jims still on your lips, the cold of the slurpee still on your tongue. she will "scream, cream, and with some jim beam, fulfill your dreams." (c) 1995 PUSSY, son. PUSSY. any other goals will lead you to a land of destruction, pain, evil, glass being pressed into your pee-hole, etc. listen to my clear voice. my clarity unsurpassed. LESSON 2: reconsitute frozen pussy by slipping your finger into the asshole. this never works!!!! but do it anyway. TRUST IN ME, AND YE SHALL NOT FAIL.

the pagan, high, arisen today. speaking in tongues. bunnies and eggs. imagine what the original pagan celebration was like. honey baked hams and pillsbury slice n bake bread rolls and Peeps [tm]? i wonder if they painted eggs though, it's possible. it fits. art and fertility. sex, food, dance, sex, sweat, costumes, speaking in tongues, fucking. nobody was needed to save anyone from their sins. i wonder if there was sin and if so, what? were people punished? no matter. people lived, fucked, birthed, and they died and they threw enormous boulders on their graves and that was the end of that. repeat. jenn's parents are catholic, in that scary way.

1pm means it's morning. Peeps are mana. it's a metaphor for exodus. packaged for mass consumption. this was 3.

No eggs, just mud and rain and bricks in a deep hole.

screw. yesterday i wrote a big ol' reply to this, and of course, my parents walk in the minute i'm about to finish it...AGH. so here goes again....sigh. Nate: I thank you deeply for you advising on successful living. i'm still trying to decode the hidden message in there... hmm. 7-11 ladies, eh? haha, nate, you're doing pretty well trying to convince me to change my moral set... i dont drink..."CUZ I'VE GOT THE STRAIGHT-EDGE!" dont kill me for that...im not trying to preach...just saying that I dont drink. i always have thought about adults oddly...(especialyl odd how i am, like, well...attracted to some in that way (like this mom that lives across the street from me)) i guess i just hope that most adults aren't like my parents. but then again, i have SUCH an easy life (compared to oswald...) yet i STILL bitch, moan, gripe , and piss like i've got nothing better to do. pagan spring celebrations... spring solstice, may day sin in a nutshell. i say. yeps. wasn't the mana from the exodus like, either locust feces, or dead locusts? so if that's what peeps are...shudder...the...er....gasp. glurp. ok. yeah.

have you ever drank or been drunk? have you ever tasted the clit of a 7-11 employee? have you ever shown your cock to (potentially) millions of people?

Yes No No Am I weird? Diagnose me, please.

yes. no. i was talking to zeph go clit tasting. you'll feel better.

Can't. My girlfriend and her clitoris are in D.C.

variety is the spice of life.

1) No, and never will. sorry. 2) I wish! i look forward to it. 3) well....::turns BRIGHT red, hair catches on fire, etc.:: yeah...but...THAT'S DIFFERENT! and plus, um...yeah... *sob* yeps. variety. dougie, where are you? go to DC, damnit! golly goodness...

It was a nice weiner,but I'm afraid of your parents and going to jail,when your 18,send me some more,seriously.

damn...and i thought everyone had seen my nakey/weiner shots and here comes this whipper snapper blowin me outta the water....way to go!

ok zeph, what's your hang up with alcohol? what happened that makes you want to shut youself off from this experience? do you know some alcoholic adults? i was much the same way when i was your age. alcohol is not a bad thing, though. it can just be used in bad ways. and sometimes, that isn't even a bad thing. but to shut yourself off from something that so many people enjoy, it just seems odd. i mean, you've never even tried it... how do you know? what do you know?

I'm in NY Zeph. It's ok, I can wait 'til Saturday. Hmm, I don't know what your 7-11 employees look like out near you, but thank god that the counter's separating me from the 7-11 employees' clits near me.

i've come to the conclusion that having a girlfriend is a bad idea, unless you're married. wow. that came out funny. drinking's ok. but i'm paranoid the next day and i hate that.

that is so funny. i also get really paranoid the day after a night of heavy drinking. it's especially acute just before the hangover kicks in. after that it's just harder to concentrate.

I have tasted the clit of a Giant grocery cashier.

after a night of heavy drinking i often feel the sting of regret more than paranoia. like damn, i shouldnt have kissed that girl, or damn i shouldnt have drove home, or damn i shouldnt have said that, or damn we should have attempted sex i must have looked like a fool etc etc etc etc. heather can you explain that statement. are you speaking from zeph's POV or from your POV, from a general man or woman's POV? i think it warrants more discussion, and i hate when you say something interesting and then run away....like you notoriously do.

regret is for idiots.

oh shut up

I've drank but never been drunk. It doesn't appeal to me. I like cocktails though, but after 3 I just want to nap. I can't even get to drunk before napping occurs. My ex found this I hope that you have a 7-11 full of supermodels in your town, I know in my hometown the cashiers were nothing to write home about. I did once want the job though because I thought a lot of fucked up things would happen there and it would be weird but they told me they wouldn't let a woman work overnights, damn!

haha! thanks J! i know...they (parents) found out about it (my dad somehow got my email password) but its ok i just got "banned" off the net (also for talking to strangers!) midnight jan16th 2002..hahaha i will. never ph33r. sorry for spoiling your party, patrick...but it's SO exciting! nate, i dunno, just that as long as i can remember, i've had a hatred for alcohol. i dunno. just some funky thing in me screams NO to it. i mean, people enjoy it...but the effects, too! i mean, you get fat and stuff, and it is addicting and you could die and just well everything...i dunno... maybe, one day, i'll edgebreak...but prolly not. dougie, i've only been to a 7-11 twice in my entire life. and i really don't know what the employees look like...when i answered i sorta forgot that there was the 7-11 employee involved...i thought it meant in general..but who knows. (yes, i know, i am SHELTERED. CULTURALLY STARVED. i've only had 1 slurpee in my life.) fuckass, i'm impressed. heather/nate/everyone: i don't think it's wrong to have a girlfriend, or have sex ,or whatever... i just think that i really only wanna do the deed for love...(no i really don't want to get married, just have a long-term relationship so that if it breaks, it wont be that bad, and if it stays, well, dont have to deal with marrige crap) i mean, i'm desparately trying to go out with who i think is the most goregous person on earth (she's never dated anyone before!?! and her parents arent letting her go to prom (why do i always fall for the older girls?)) and if it worked out, and if the relationship came to it, then i'd be cool with sex, but i dunno...i just dont like the concept...like it's not good karma or something to screw. jsut something weird. like it's a worthless activity. no that is my opinion, which only applies to ME, so im nt pushing it on yall. and that whole regret deal...thats another reason for no alcohol. yeah. what was i saying?

Zeph, you're cute and young and well meaning. Stay that way. Live your life how you want.

Zeph, where are you from? "and her parents arent letting her go to prom (why do i always fall for the older girls?))" Falling for older girls (who are just old enough to go to the prom). I love it. To me, an older girl is over 40. Holy crap.

zeph, i think that eventually you'll find that you regret not letting yourself go crazy when you had the chance. like in the beginning of the orbital track "satan" "Daddy...?" "Yes Son?" "What does regret mean?" "Well, Son, a funny thing about regret is that it's better to regret something you have done, than to regret something you haven't done."

zeph were you raised by a single mom? oh no, you didnt ruin my party....in actually proud of you (see thread developing today). It actually lowers your risk of a heart attack to have drinks in moderation. It's addicting like rock climbing, record collecting and bike riding are addicting. Its only a problem if you let it control your life. Example....i have probably had a drink or more for nearly every day for months, if not a few years on end. This week....im dry as a bone, im reminding my body and psyche who's boss. Drinks have never controlled my life. Alcoholism differs from individual to individual.

That Daddy/Son thing is also at the beginning of 'Sweat Hog' by the Butthole Surfers.

that makes sense.

"And when you see your mom,..."

i don't run away, i just get busy and forget. also- i like things to be vague, exactitude can be boring. i like all of the interpretations of that statement. but in general, i think commitment should be all or nothing [interesting contradiction to the above statement, no?]. be married or don't. the gray area is pointless. no need to have a girlfriend when you're 17. but that's just how i feel today. also coming from someone who started an 11-year relationship when she was 15. [at least i have experience with it being a bad idea] by the way. go see Before Night Falls.

I'm still vacillating on whether to get married or not. We've lived together for 9 months, and have been going out for 2 years. I don't know, I just can't get myself to say, "Ok, this is right. Let's do it." Re variety is the spice of life, I've never cheated on anyone I've gone out with. If there was somebody else I was interested in, I always broke it off with the current person. Not that that's real honorable, but it's more so than sticking it to somebody else while you're still with your main squeeze.

if it's not right, why live together? i don't get it.

Dinner Lady: Thanks...::blush:: i'm quite flattered! Dougie: I'm in NJ. yay. i consider someone who's older than me an older girl...could be 1 year, could be 15...that's not the major point here, but instead, the other factors... sigh...yeah... nate: TRUE. i DO regret NOT doing things...but they never have involved alcohol, yet. who knows, i might change how i think about booze, but for now, i'm set in my ways...sorry Patrick: no, no single moms here... 2 parents, and i make it out to be alot worse than it is. they feed me, clothe me, don't beat me, etc, so i really oughtn't complain...but i can't help it. yeah. i think they've done a golly-gee awful job raising me, though... i'll go see the thread...thanks! hehe...yeah, too bad i got semi-caught about it all... ok, i'll put that into consideration..but i don't think i want to risk drinking. sorry...at least, not yet.. and YES ROCK CLIMBING IS ADDICTING (not in a drug kinda way, but it's fun as hell...i'm just a little poor to buy rope and harnesses and such and then drive out to a cliff and climb... Heather: for commitment, well, i don't like the concept of marriage, but I would definitely stay committed to one person, i jsut factored in the fact that there are so many divorces these days...and they hurt people pretty bad. i don't think there's a need, just a pressure by society... and i only feel urgencey because i don't want to lose this person...i guess i'm just a bit carried away (although i've thought this way for like 4 years...what a NERD i am!) Before Night Falls. Gotcha. (what's it rated? my mommy and daddy won't let me rent R films anymore (well..they didn't before...) because my little brother had a migrane in coincidence with my watching Silence of the Lambs like last week ("bad" movies like that also make my mom "nervous")) Dougie again: you're an honourable, honest fellow. I admit i've cheated on someone twice...but it wasn't cheating like most other people have it...and in the first case, i did break it off, and the second, well, the side thing didnt turn out like i thought it would, so i forgot about her and stayed with the relationship (i was also too much of a wuss to dump someone...i dont wanna be cruel) and then i got dumped like a month or two later yeah. everybody: not to be too rude...but er, um, wanna rezz any topics that just died after "By Zeph on Monday, April 16, 2001 - 05:24 pm:" like the easter stuff? (sorry...i'm a rucking fetard like that)

if you can go out and get some side action while maintaining a solid relationship, what's the difference? the connection between intellectual, romantic love and men fucking chicks is nil.

The difference is, I know that I wouldn't want to have it happen to me, therefore I don't want to inflict it on anyone else. And anyways, I'm not a good enough liar to pull it off. Plus, it's just never an option I've entertained. When you're with somebody, you're with them. Thanks for your vote of confidence, Zeph, but I certainly don't belong on anyone's pedestal. Heather, because it's comfortable.

why pretend you're being someone's boyfriend? why can't a solid relationship not include possession? either you both don't want anyone else or you do. i never react like anyone else to this stuff anyway.

it doesn't sound comfortable. lying is stupid but not many people want the truth.

Because I keep thinking some sort of revelation either way will hit me one of these days. It is comfortable.

zephyr, i support your decision not to drink. i think you should do whatever you're comfortable with. you're not missing much, anyhow, although you are still young enough to change fifteen times over by the time you reach old age. as for marriage, i can't get into how i feel about it. it's too complicated. i will say that i agree with heather to a certain point, but to me the commitment is what matters more than the actual marriage.

"why can't a solid relationship not include possession?" amen

hello fuckers. that orbital shit is a sample. i'll remember who did it first when i sober up in a few years. gotta go. bye.

uh, la diabla says not yet. apparently, "most relationships are about discordant lies that people try to force into a single truth. those always fail. a real relationship is made up of two separate truths that combine into a living fiction." la chica de la mui pladow. aye. cerveza!

I never cheat. I don't see the point. If I want to be with someone I'm with them, if I don't I break it off. If I want to leave them for someone I do. I've been cheated on and it sucks. I'm not interested in inflicting that behavior on someone else. It seems really childish and selfish to me, though I do understand intellectually why it would be appealing to some. Still, doesn't seem like the most effective way to sort out your insecurites. I'm not someone who needs be in a relationship all the time though, I just spent a year and a half single and was really quite happy most of the time - I'd rather stick it out and wait for someone I really feel compelled about to come down the pike. It's one thing to be promiscuous when you're single but I can't get behind lying to someone you supposedly care about. That just seems counter-productive. I suppose it depends on what you see your goals in the relationship as. "the commitment is what matters more than the actual marriage" - yeah, I understand this. As many know, I did live with someone. We loved each other but we were never really 'committed'. Hard to explain. We were sure committed to that apartment though. I wouldn't live with someone again unless I was going to marry them I think. Maybe it would be different if the commitment was more talked about etc. Marriage is different than living together - according to my married friends that is - and I see it in them too. Especially the men seem so much happier married, maybe it's just many are married to my fab galfriends. They seem to feel more at ease though, it's really nice. I don't think marriage or commitment have to be about possession but I have had commitments in the past that were. I don't think I will again. Dougie - If marriage is right for you two, when it's right you'll do it. If it's not, you won't (hopefully). In the meantime try not to stress out about whether you should or shouldn't.

swine, the sample is from butthole surfers "sweat loaf" that was nearly stated somewhere else. "lying to someone you supposedly care about" sex doesn't have to involve lying.

"a real relationship is made up of two separate truths that combine into a living fiction." AMEN

"sex doesn't have to involve lying." No but cheating does. Otherwise it wouldn't be 'cheating'.

what is a "living fiction"?

"Why can't a solid relationship not include possession" My X-wife is definitely posssessed.

"No but cheating does. Otherwise it wouldn't be 'cheating'." cheating is as much an implicit lie from the partner who isn't cheating, as an explicit lie from the partner who is.

"cheating is as much an implicit lie from the partner who isn't cheating" Assuming the cuckold or the (what's the female for cuckold?) knows.

and does nothing about it

you guys are scaring me. cut it out.

thats absurd nate

what Patrick said

you guys are absurd. if the relationship is idyllic, then there will either be no cheating or the "cheating" will exist, be acknowledged and accepted. once again, the feminist paradigm has dictated and the masculine must accept. sex in its raw form is a physical act that can be accomplished without impact on a strong relationship. a man having extra-relational sex is equivilent to a woman reading a romance novel. sex is mostly in the cock for a man, mostly in the mind for a woman. (those, of course, are generalities)

"....or the "cheating" will exist, be acknowledged and accepted" not necessarily. "sex in its raw form is a physical act that can be accomplished without impact on a strong relationship." i don't necessarily deny this... but saying cheating is an implicit lie from the partner who isn't cheating is just silly...and totally baseless. The statement seems to be based on the statement/assumtion you make above above...

having extrarelational sex is not equivalent to reading a book. funny, though, I've always assumed that the desire to cheat was generally stronger on the woman's side. like, as long as the man is fucking someone--even his own partner--then he's happy. I mean, after all, the man's cock is blind. but the woman's mind needs variety.

"but saying cheating is an implicit lie from the partner who isn't cheating is just silly...and totally baseless" most people cheat because they are unfulfilled in the relationship. being unfulfilled in a relationship is a result of an implicit lie from your partner. caring about the other person is a generally accepted quality of a relationship. "having extrarelational sex is not equivalent to reading a book." how so? where does a woman's sexual interest exist? isn't it in the fantasy? "I mean, after all, the man's cock is blind. but the woman's mind needs variety" men are driven on the genetic level by conquest. we're set up like deer. men are geared biologically for multiple partners.

misconception on your part cyst....man is not entirely possesed by his cock....we do have brains.....stimulated by the visual....that like variety too. i could provide details and examples but im not sure thats necesary.

"being unfulfilled in a relationship is a result of an implicit lie from your partner." maybe, maybe not, it could be more of an implicit to the cheaters ownself thinking in the beginning that SHE or HE was THE one, only to come and find out they weren't. "caring about the other person is a generally accepted quality of a relationship." and this part...seems to me that you are almost blaming the other partner if one cheats...implying that the one is cheating because of lack of care on the others part. which assumes the potential cheater communicated his/her unhappiness, didnt get results, i.e. was lied to so to speak, therefore opening the door for the other to adultery. women are also geared for multiple partners, some would argue. there was a vanity fair article a while back (or was it Harpers) that alluded to reseach that demonstrates men's sperm count increases when away from their partners...which has biological roots in that the male's assume the female, while away had sex with others...so he increases his count to compete with the other sperm. The data conincided with data about female apes and promiscuity. The notion the women want "security" more than variety and are the more "nurturing" of the two is a incorrect and sexist i believe.

Nate, I just don't know what to say except you really do know all about women and how we work. Your insights on the female sexual psyche are mindblowing. "where does a woman's sexual interest exist? isn't it in the fantasy?" Do you really need someone to explain why extrarelational sex does not equal a romance novel read for women? If it were that dull no men would bother cheating. "most people cheat because they are unfulfilled in the relationship. being unfulfilled in a relationship is a result of an implicit lie from your partner. caring about the other person is a generally accepted quality of a relationship." This still is incoherent. Do you mean 'if you really cared, I'd feel fulfilled'? We of course know that's not true.

Also Nate, your arguements only have to do with why men cheat, not why women do, and plenty do.

are you guys living fiction?

i am. i'm a man, dinner lady. i can't speak as to why women cheat. "Do you really need someone to explain why extrarelational sex does not equal a romance novel read for women?" yes, i do. nobody has yet. it's a funny thing about arguing for the current paradigm: all you have to say is "because that's the way it is," and it's so. while you're at it, please explain to me how sex is intertwined with a relationship. explain why it needs to be exclusive in order for the relationship to function. please, indulge me: tell me why society is geared so that men are possessions of women while conventional wisdom says the opposite is still true. or, instead, go on thinking the way everyone else does. because that's what paradigms are for.

ok. my statement that reading a book is not the same as having extrarelational sex was a generality. some people in some relationships may find have no problem with either. some people shove apples up their asses. whatever. talking about relationship paradigms is useless. because in a way, nate is right. some people may hate for their partners to read books as much as they would for them to have sex with others. and that's completely valid. if the man hates that the woman wants to read romances, then the woman should either stop reading romances or he should leave her. if the woman hates that the man keeps mistresses, then he should give them up or she should leave him. the best scenario is probably not for the woman to keep reading and for the man to keep fucking and for them to stay together. but if that's what they do, then that's their own business, isn't it?

sex need not be exclusive in order for a relationship to function. unless one or both parties believe that the sex needs to be exclusive. then it is necessary. this may apply to many other things as well -- cleaning the house, having kids, going to church. if the man and the woman don't agree on what's going on in the relationship, then they will have problems. one of the happiest marriages I've witnessed is a sexually "open" one.

my question to nate is...in either of these situations where is the non-reading, non-cheating spouse involved in an implicit lie. "if the man hates that the woman wants to read romances, then the woman should either stop reading romances or he should leave her." "if the woman hates that the man keeps mistresses, then he should give them up or she should leave him."

yeah, I'm not sure how a man whose girlfriend reads romances is necessarily involved in an implicit lie or whatever that was all about. the basis of a relationship should not be about sex exclusively within the relationship or books that were released in hardcover first or whatever but about honesty, communication, and willingness and desire to maintain internal harmony. the other person won't always want you to do everything you would like to do. trick is to hook up with a reasonable person for whom the compromises are worth it.

Nate, if you have an open relationship that's a whole other story. Your initial arguement sounds like 'men should be able to screw around and lie about it because we're men and that's the way we are' not 'a relationship doesn't have to be sexually exclusive to be good'. The former I don't agree with the latter I do. I'm confused by you saying "i'm a man. i can't speak as to why women cheat." but, as a man, you are comfortable telling us that "a man having extra-relational sex is equivilent to a woman reading a romance novel. sex is mostly in the cock for a man, mostly in the mind for a woman." If you can't speak to one as a man, why can you about the other. "tell me why society is geared so that men are possessions of women while conventional wisdom says the opposite is still true." Sorry bub, have no idea what you're talking about here. "or, instead, go on thinking the way everyone else does." Oh whatever Nate! I think what *I* want to think. If everyone else agrees with me that's fine. If they don't that's fine. If some things I think happen to be in step with current mores or 'square' I'm not going to change my mind just to be 'counterculture' or whatever. If anyone including you brings up a point in these boards that I'm really persuaded by of course I'm interested. But I think I'm not even sure what your arguement is about now.

maybe nate is just trying to liven things up around here. yawn.

maybe i'm just shaking my cage. a good blowjob and i'll be right back to complacency in feminine society. it's so tiresome talking to you, lady. a quarter of the time i feel like you must have been hit in the head with a hammer, and the rest of the time i know that i'm not as bright as i think i am and i just feel insane.

Nice of you to defend the guy, cyst, but do you really believe that if you threw out a stupid argument and were floundering to defend it, he'd come to your rescue? I daresay he'd be ripping you a new asshole, or at least calling you one.

maybe cyst is just better at thinking than the bulk of you automatons.

"Must type reply. What to type? Standard answer #1." Fuck you, you ass.

yeah...a good blow would set ya straight (thank heaven for 7-11) i tell ya....i don't know if its the spring time or what...but im just short of dry humping office furniture. yesterday got really bad....but alas, i cam home to a "when are you going to fuck me" look and things suddenly got brighter. so go boy....go pop a load with the blonde cutie surfer gal at your local bar with some of that bitchin Santa cruz weed and be done with it.

dumbass.

Patrick seems like a nice lad. Shame to call him a dumbass.

right now I can't think of any situations in which I would want someone to support a stupid argument of mine just to be nice. nate's argument isn't very clear this time. I understand what he's saying about the idea of separating monogamy from long-term relationships, though. if people were meant to be monogamous, then maybe they would be more often. I'm certain that the 100% monogamous relationship/marriage is already rare and getting rarer. I know zillions of people who lie, overlook, justify, etc., and that is how they deal with the continuation of their partly shitty relationships. but all relationships are partly shitty. it's the mostly shitty ones that make you wonder why those people bother. sometimes it seems nate challenges paradigms out of some huge chip on his shoulder. his life has always sounded pretty good to me, and I don't see how he has been so profoundly victimized by what he seems to think of as a female-dominant society. but whatever his approach or motives, that doesn't change that he's often right. I'm surprised that more people here don't try to come up with cogent responses to the things he comes up with. it's as if some of you sputter out your logically unfounded indignation, and the rest of you silently agree. I also like to challenge paradigms sometimes. like this weekend, I am so tired of people saying that it's nice that I'm going out of town with my boyfriend. why is that so nice? why is that so fucking appropriate? I actually wanted to go away for longer, but I couldn't because I also wanted to go with him. I could have gone away by myself, an idea I discussed with people, and everyone seemed to think that wasn't the best choice. then I almost wanted to go away by myself just to spite all these people who seem to think that the only way to enjoy yourself is to be half of a pair. fuck that. why should I have to plan my vacations around my having a boyfriend? why can't I lead my own life? it's funny. he said he would be fine with my going alone. but everyone else acts as if taking a girlfriend instead or going by myself would be some sort of heresy. I loathe the twosomes-only set up of american society. western society. maybe the whole world.

So go by yourself if you want to challenge the paradigm. God, I wish the word "paradigm" was stricken from the English language. By whom, I don't know. Maybe the Academie Anglaise. Also, as an aside, the phrases "At this juncture" and "moving forward" should disappear. Anyhow, yeah, Nate's often right. So are a lot of the people here. I think Nate's "reductio ad absurdum" arguments often wear people out, where they say, "Oh for fuck's sake, whatever. Uncle already." And the rest of the people who remain silent probably just are not digging the thought of getting a "you must have been hit in the head with a hammer" retort.

yeah, I also want to challenge the overuse of the word "paradigm." I thought about going by myself, but it wasn't until after I made my decision that I started getting really sickened by all the affirmation. I hate that people always fucking think in terms of couples. you are a part of a couple; therefore, you always go on vacation with the other person. it's like going away by yourself or with a pal is only for those poor singletons. but it is true that there is no one I would rather go away with.

and I nominate myself to l'academie anglaise. it seems like I spend half my waking hours (and many sleeping ones as well) thinking about language usage, grammar, and spelling. today I had an extended argument about someone's misuse of the latin ablative case. fuckers.

I go on vacation for a week without my s/o and a week with her. The without vacation is fishing/camping. The with vacation is somewhere vacation-y like Puerto Rico or Florida or Maine.

seeing as how nate posted that at the same time as i made my post, im confident he wasn't calling me a dumbass. in fact im pretty sure i made his day in another way, dumbass or not. cyst "...it's nice that I'm going out of town with my boyfriend. why is that so nice?" because hotel sex is just better with your boyfriend or girlfriend? just my angle on things....but i refer to my post above about springtime the times i've gone out of town by myself, on business or what have you...i miss her. Im not good at befriending strangers...so I usually end up bored. Is that dependence?

So you mean to tell me he was calling Automaton353938 a dumbass? Get out...

hotel sex is great. hell, even motel 6 sex is great. I probably already told you we're staying at the marion berry crack film hotel saturday night. I like to go places where I know people I don't get to see much. saturday I'll be having dinner with my old college roommate (a national gay lesbian task force organizer), his boyfriend (a pro-cuba lobbyist), a former coworker (a financial times reporter), and his girlfriend (a foreign service person awaiting assignment). and my boyfriend (guitarist, student, preening fop).

i don't know why some things make me think of other things but this is one of those times. The rabbit killer left his home for the clough And said goodbye to his infertile spouse Carried air rifle and firm stock of wood Carried night-site telescope light A cemetery overlooked clough valley of mud And the grave-keeper was out on his rounds Yellow-white shirt buried in duffle coat hood Keeping edges out with mosaic color stones Jawbone and the air rifle Who would think they would bring harm? Jawbone and the air rifle One is cursed and one is borne The air rifle lets out a mis-placed shot It smashed a chip off a valued tomb Grave-keeper tending wreath-roots said "Explain, move into the light of the moon" "I thought you were rabbit prey, or a loose sex criminal" Rifleman he say "Y'see I get no kicks anymore From wife or children four There's been no war for forty years And getting drunk fills me with guilt So after eight, I prowl the hills Eleven o'clock, I'm tired to fuck Y'see I've been laid off work" The grave-keeper said "You're out of luck And here is a jawbone caked in muck Carries the germ of a curse Of the Broken Brothers Pentacle Church Formed on a Scotch island To make you a bit of a man" Jawbone and the air rifle Who would think they would bring harm? Jawbone and the air rifle One is cursed and one is warm The rabbit killer did not eat for a week And no way he can look at meat No bottle has he anymore It could be his mangled teeth He sees jawbones on the street Advertisements become carnivores And roadworkers turn into jawbones And he has visions of islands, heavily covered in slime The villagers dance round pre-fabs And laugh through twisted mouths Don't eat It's disallowed Suck on marrowbones and energy from the mainland Jawbone and the air rifle Who would think they would bring harm? Jawbone and the air rifle One is cursed and one is gone

now i'm depressed *and* scared.

You're all going to HELL. Have a nice day.

Not me, I'm going to Disneyland.

you know whats one step better than hotel sex...hotel sex with a camera. ideally a polaroid....or a 35mm with a slutty flash on it. in hotel room, away from home i admit i want a bottle of whisky, a line or two on the washbasin....and maybe some rent-a-porn on the tv. im not conscious about closing the blinds either...

My s/o and I went to a sleazy hotel once,the kind where they show porn and rent by the hour,I can't remember why we did this,it's not like us,but we didn't do much cause I was too worried about the two guys that went into the room across from us with a german shepard and a roll of toilet paper.

"I was too worried about the two guys that went into the room across from us with a german shepard and a roll of toilet paper." I'm roflmao'ing. Maybe they wanted to teach the pup to use the toilet, but didn't want to mess up their own house.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970171307/ref=ase_askmencommagazin/107-7416131-0172506

i think this is appropriate wallpaper for everything that is troubling me. i decided i would read until the next chapter or page 200, whichever came first, and then make dinner. it is a reasonable way to work on my focus; i postpone the inclinations to follow distractions until a set quantity of effort has been expended on the task requiring focus. i finished the chapter and saw that the next chapter starts on page 200. i swung my legs off the couch and i stood up and my foot rested against the water glass on the floor. the water rocked but the glass did not. the strange and incidental precision in the universe rocked in me like the water in the glass. it is a prelude to odder mind tricks. a sudden, forceful inhale before a scream. it is now time to make my dinner, but instead i am writing here. writing takes priority over reading, so as well it should take priority over eating. to some degree. to some point. and still, this is all about focus. on monday the behavorist encouraged me to attend an “intensive outpatient program.” he also made an appoint for me with a psychiatrist. another attempt at labeling this. i’m no doctor, but the label is almost certainly within the bipolar spectrum. so maybe this is less about me accepting another psychiatrist as me accepting something along the lines of lithium. a label would help. someone else’s label. i talked to my boss yesterday morning. he is a good and caring man. i told him i was going to take leave at least through wednesday. wednesday is the shrink. he is understanding. i’ve missed a lot, i’ve underperformed since january. i told him i was fucking up. those words. i told him i hadn’t done anything at all last week. he said that he knows what i can do. he’s seen it. he wants me to figure this shit out and return to being his golden boy. that’s my paraphrase. he knows how good i can be and is willing to gamble a bit, giving me the space to return to that. it sounds like i’m willing to go down meds road because of some corporate whore job. it is not just that. maybe i’m getting old. maybe i’m getting tired. if the ups and downs were just in the mind, in the mood, that would be fine. it is worrying about, dealing with the consequences that are wearing me out. it is time to get some stability. it is time to take some sort of mature, positive action. and, someday i’m going to run out of luck. i’ve been chained in the back of a squad car, but never booked. i’ve run up ridiculous debt, but somehow i’ve always cleared it. i’ve drank with a subconscious death wish, blacking out entire weeks, and yet here i am. am i pussing out? am i betraying art and mind and soul? it is not just that.. i want to fix things in me that are broken. i want to move towards a life and a body of work that is not tied to a corporate whore job. i want to make myself right for some distant , half dreamed woman. some potential. i want my luck to create in clean and fecund pastures instead of working to help my foul soul from the filth of my own hole. and a family. i do not even want to begin to think about this right now, this possibility. something i have written off for years: no babies, no children, no way. but what if these feeling are some sort of grand-scale cop out? because clearly in the current state of things it is not an option. what if, in deciding that i am the way i seem to be, i have destroyed in myself the desires to have something that would be impossible. it is an easy thing for the brain to do, given years to ponder profound evidence that fatherhood would an incredible mistake for man and child alike. so is the idea that art cannot exist with healthy progeny a myth i’ve created or learned? or is it a lie that i tell myself to keep myself from desiring something that would give cause to more deeply examine what i am. or, more accurately, to embark upon the effort to fix that which i already realize i am. it is dinner time.

nate, you'd be an excellent dad. not saying i think you should make that a goal. not saying you shouldn't. just saying.

Nate,you sound so despondent.You have me worried. What is your diagnosis? Be reassured that taking meds to help stabelize the brains chemistry can be a positive thing.And can make you feel much better. You have many good qualities,and much to share. A positive attitude is a VERY important factor in recovery.Kicks in good helper cells.

i'm going to the shrink at 3pm tomorrow. i'm ok today. last week was sketchy. but this has been happening here and there for ... over a decade? the only thing new is that i'm going to do something about it. well, that and i don't have booze and drugs to blame the mood swings on. other than last weekend. but that was an anomoly.

good luck, man. i know what i need. i need to quit drinking. that's about it. i cannot imagine myself becoming a 12 stepper. it's like imagining becoming "born again". not gonna happen. but, compliant with my philosophy of "wrongness", who knows? it's not like i've never reversed my position before.

yea, we'll see what happens. i'm not exactly a follow-througher. i cannot imagine being a 12 stepper either. if i hadn't been able to get out of those holes myself, i'd be fucked now.

It's OK to chain the animal. You don't have to kill the beast, but letting it chew on your spinal cord is not noble. Keep it around for inspiration. Let it out on occasion. But there ain't no point in letting it sit on your head and claw out your eyes unless you worship suffering.

true dat. double true!

Well,the good news is, you're already half way there! Realizing that you need to make changes in your life is the hardest part.Soul searching is never easy. Meeting your demon head on,is the surest way to sucess. I am in awe of your strength.

did you see thumbsucker? maybe ritalin would help for a while. you never know. ritalin probably has just about the same dreaded reputation as lithium. you're not pussing out. you're trying something different. they say the real definition of mental illness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. whoever they are. so you're trying something different. maybe drugs will help you feel better. they can now prescribe something that does something similar, more targeted, controlled, that essentially does the same thing as the alcohol/pot combo meal. and you don't lose your job and hopefully you can still get out of bed in the morning and remember shit. whatever helps. the thing about taking psychiatric drugs by choice, is that you also can choose to stop taking them. so you have nothing to lose. you'll just be able to have a different experience. if you don't like it, you don't have to keep taking them. you are not ill. if anything, perhaps you are overly observant. that's just my opinion. what do i know. you notice everything. how could one possibly observe and process everything and still feel sane? that's not necessarily a bad thing. what do i know. i do know that you can be a full time artist and have a family. i know a handful of people who are not starving entirely. they have spouses, kids, homes. it's just fear. i'm pointing out the obvious. you can do it. you can write and take photos and start a gallery and do everything you think sounds fun. nate, this is something i meditate on all the time: getting what you want is easy. the hard part is deciding what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you want. the end is the same for all of us. you might as well have fun and take chances and minimize your regrets. this is another idea i meditate on all the time: don't let fear stand between you and everything else you are. let us know how it goes today. you know how i worry.

Bipolar is one hell of a beast. My best friend and my wife's brother are both bipolar, as was my grandmother. Three very different people, but their stories converge in several places, and some things you've mentioned sound familiar. But your doctor's information is likely far better than my observations. ADD is certainly something to look at too, as sarah said. Adderall saved my job and gave me a chance to show my employer what I can do -- or maybe I should say "I did it with the help of the medication" or something. I don't know. But I can focus now. Like the main character in Thumbsucker said, I feel more like myself than I ever have. In the movie, he goes into asshole overdrive. I keep my dose low to prevent that, but it takes more effort. So I keep my job, but I still can't remember to get my oil changed. And what Czarina said. I'm sure you'll come out on top, nate, if you follow through.

fuck what a thread. and im divorced with secrets still in tact. HA!

fuck what a thread. and im divorced with secrets still in tact. HA!

Patrick,good to see you post.Czarina and I were kind of worried about you.

Anyone ever wonder if zephyr ever got to taste a 7-11 clit? or if he, like many straight-edgers, changed his tune about alcohol once he was old enough to buy it? Me, I'm betting he held out until halfway through freshman year of college. on both.

how are your lungs patrick?

good thanks. better than my divorce, or my ex rather, who is delusional to think she can bully me into being with my daughter less than half the time despite our signed and sealed divorce agreement outlining total joint custody.

im trying to think of the last time i saw a clit work at 7-11. seriously, i cant.

Nate, it's not a cop out to want to feel in control of yourself and your self and your brain. I don't know how to say what I want to say. I don't think Art is something to be elevated into a position of lordship over your life. I don't know, maybe I'm the cop-out. But Art is not holy. The Holy is what you bring and give to Art, not the other way around. I can't articulate what I'm thinking. Listen to Sarah and Antigone and the others. Be good to yourself. Be well.

bipolar is the diagnosis. i start the drugs tonight. nearly all of the side effects are easy to stomach. it is worth a try. regarding art: what if the roots of these mental issues are the conflict between having the channel open to [what ever causes art] and the absurd conformity of our society? what if what is important is bringing a voice to the insanity that modern life brings? my new pills are chewable. they smell like fake fruit. and speaking of being unable to articulate what you think and feel, this thread is absurd. and i can't read that first post all the way through without cracking myself up.

larry flynt it bipolar. one of the people i work with at full circle emporium is a woman named annalee, who is bipolar. she paints, makes jewelry, is our resident decorator for the store, designs ads and signs, and does a whole bunch of of other shit. she can be on the strange side when she's having trouble with her medication - i once had to sit with her and "be quiet" for an hour - but artistically she does quite well. i know what it's like to have your body betray you (being a cripple and all), and what a hard road it is to accepting it and learning to make it something positive. hang in there, motherfucker.

having to take brain meds does kind of suck, but it is better than a lot of the alternatives. they think my dad is bipolar, and his mother. there certainly is something wrong with him. may it go well for you, nate.

What's the difference between this mind altering drug and all of the others you've used before, Nate? Seriously. I've considered Adderall recently. I've cut back to about 500mg of caffeine and it doesn't seem to help much to maintain my concentration level. Still rather erratic.

it's chewable, tiggy. i'm not unhappy.

it's been bugging me, but i remember now. true dat! double true! it's from the chronic- WHAT? -cles of narnia.

so wow, bipolar. what does that mean exactly? also, are there levels? like mild to severe? please don't worry. the drugs won't make the art go away.

Nate, I have to ask...if they are chewable and false fruit flavoured, are they also shaped like fake fruits? Shit. I don't know what to say. I want this to work for you. That's all.

they aren't fruit shaped. or little-flinstones character shaped. or anything more exciting than a square with rounded corners. small and white. i'm a little mystified by the chewable angle. the meds are not recommended for people under the age of sixteen. plus, the fruit flavor, as it turns out, does not mask the abundant ass-flavor. next time i'm just going to swallow the thing. bipolar just means that i mix in manic episodes with my cycle of depression. my manic episodes are pretty minor, and mostly fall into the realm of little spending sprees and long, late night voicemails for my friends. luckily i have the income and the friends to support both activities with only minor discomfort. maybe some bursts of writing fall in manic episodes. who knows. i appreciate the supportive notes. honest to god i'm fine with this. there is nothing new but a label i've long suspected and a course of potential resolution. it was hard to explain that to my mom. she wants nothing to go wrong for me.

Yeah for mom! The mystifying chewable angle is to ascertain that people take their meds.When they are in an acute manic state,its like an unbelievable natural high.And they don't want to take the meds and end it.They can go days,sometimes weeks with little or no sleep.[they are very annoying] This is usually when families bring them into the hospital.The staffs job is to ascertain that they DO take their meds.Many of the patients are cheeckers or hoarders.They are masters at hiding the meds in their mouths,pretending to swallow them,and then spitting them out when no one is looking. We have some pills that just instantly dissolve in the mouth,so even if the patient cheeks them,they still get the dose.Often I make my patients that are cheeckers sit in the hall with me for an hour.I never take my eyes off of them for a second.Usually,after about 20 minuets or so,they ask for some water,[by now the regular tablets are dissolving in their mouths and taste pretty nasty],so I send someone for water for them.My job is to make sure the pills go down and stay down. Hence the chewable and disolvable tabs.But these are for use in patients that require monitoring for med compliance.As you'll be taking your own meds,I don't know why he gave you chewables,unless perhaps they were samples? Or perhaps a very low dose that is ordinarily used on children. The symptoms you describe don't sound severe,and it seems that your depressive state is really the problem,so you should do just fine with the meds. I'm sure your doctor told you that it takes several weeks for the meds to level off in your system,so just be patient and give them a chance to work. I think your gonna like the new,happier you.

You're really lucky that your manic phases aren't too bad. For a lot of people, it's the worst part. My mom grew up with a bipolar mother. During her manic phases she would put on tons of makeup and buzz around, pissing everyone off and saying the most fucked up stuff. When she was down, she wouldn't get out of her recliner and would eat nothing but those little individually wrapped Hershey's variety chocolates. You know, the ones that come in a bag with the milk chocolate, dark chocolate, and maybe another one. I never saw her when she wasn't down, so my memories of her include the chair and usually involve her offering me chocolate. The money thing is classic mania. One of the bipolar people I've known would go really really manic, and exacerbated it by abusing antidepressants. He told me he was going to go off and study medicine and astrophysics at the same time. How easy it was going to be! He thought that he was cured -- that he no longer had to take his lithium because he felt great. Every bipolar I've known has attempted suicide. So, you know, don't.

I too have relatives who struggle with bipolar disorder. For some folks, lithium is the only answer, but in the past few years there have been some amazing advances in meds. At the risk of sounding like a TV ad, talk to your doctor about Wellbrutin XL (the time-release variety) and some of the other newer medications on the market, or do a little research on your own. They tend to have fewer side effects and are less numbing than lithium. Whatever you decide, I'm betting your muse won't leave you. It's there in spite of your illness, not because of it. Congrats on deciding to take charge.

my cousin was diagnosed bipolar after spending christmas in a psych ward. he was on some other meds that eventually made him act schizo. my friend korinna's bipolar and she's the person who can hurt me the most and also inspires me to try and be a better person. matt i worry about, he said he's manic sometimes but i don't quite understand what he means and we don't talk much anymore. i took ritalin for four years and worry about my brain. i would be animated, gregarious (occasionally) without it but with i was shy shy shy, barely saying a word. it scared me, but i can barely remember what it felt like, twelve years ago when i put my foot down. i remember trying to take the little round bitter white pill that first morning with honey because the doctor said it was easier and nearly getting sick because i swallowed the honey but the pill just dissolved. though i had the same experience years later trying to swallow an asprin when my ears wouldn't pop coming down from a flight over an ocean and a continent.

A lot of my family is bipolar. My dad self-medicated with booze, then got diagnosed, then wouldn't take his lithium in manic phase because he liked the energy and creativity and productivity. The main problem with self-medication is that it has many of the same adverse effects as prescribed medication without any regulatory agent uninvested in the image of the "good" self of manic-ness.

I have nothing new to add, but I second everything said already. Mostly, I want you to know that I think you're swell, Nate. No medication you take is ever going to quash your creativity and your passion and your wonderful dark humor and your perfect sense of the absurd, and that makes me glad. Health is a good goal to strive for. Blah. Why the fuck did I choose to become a librarian (in 300 words or less, for a job application)?

Because there is no love more elevating than the love of knowledge and no service more noble than the support of that love? You're a book pimp, dude, go grab the symposium and crib some Plato's Socrates bit with Diotima and then exchange "library science" for "philosophy." And if the don't catch the plagiarhomage, don't go work for them. :) Seriously, if you quote with attribution it should be hawt.

word.

how are you feeling so far nateness?

i feel weird. i don't know if it is the meds or me. i am still on a doseage that isn't supposed to be effective. no fatal skin rashes to report.

what does weird feel like?

blurry. and, there is a point when you are calmly crying when you realize you are about to be uncontrolably crying. like standing on your toes at the end of the diving board. like earthquake weather. there is something like that.

that might not be a bad thing.

it is a little calm in here.

you should be able to see the emotion, but not feel it you're standing on the bank of the river, but not flowing down stream

For reals?

That's what St John's wort does for me, at least.