....please

any in particular? what is your real question?

I took a class in psychopharmacology. What do you want to know? How the different ones work? Side effects? Whuzzah?

They play with the chemicals in your head. Bad mix with alcohol. 'Fraid that's it for my knowledge.

they're bad for you. avoid them.

They're not bad for you. Ignore Nate. But, a more specific question would be good. Facts you can get from the internet. Do you want personal experiences? I've taken St John's Wort before, but no prescription grade antidepressants like Prosac. I've had friends who have, though. What do you want to know?

im with nate. the people i know on them only get worse.

Thanks

Prozac helped me get back on my feet again so to speak. Took it for 10 months. The only side effects I noticed were difficulty sleeping, and sweating so much that I had the world's largest pitstains. I wore a lot of sweaters that year. Small price to pay to feel like living again.

paxil is an SSRI. it's an antidepressent. don't let anybody tell you, "it's not an antidepressant, it's an anti-anxiety medication." it's an anti-anxiety antidepressant. here's what makes me feel good: Pecan Mudslide™ Thick DQ® soft serve, sweet caramel, rich fudge and crunch pecans all layered high for an Avalanche of Flavor!

that sounds amazing. i went to a therapist when i was a teenager. they diagnosed me as ADD and wanted to put me on medication. i declined. i think i was just going through a phase known as "being a teenager."

i think it’s getting pretty obvious by my posts lately (at least i imagine it is) that my faith in my own mental health is dwindling. Rapidly. it’s not an easy choice to look into this. I am a person who does everything to avoid taking tylenol for a headache and refuses gas at the dentist. Pills aren’t solutions, pills are pills. But if pills will get me to start eating again, bring me away from being on the edge of tears 24 hours a day, and stop my grief induced nightmares, then bring on the fucking pills. I hate the idea but I’ve tried everything to fix this myself. i can honestly say that if i was a person who drinks, i would be dead by now. I realized that what i thought the problem was is not the problem at all. This isn’t the problem. Neither is this. These are just symptoms. The problem is that i’m losing the ability to cope with shit. Or rather that i get too worried and obsessed with everything until it all tries to kill me and i start handing my physical health over. Last night i started piecing it all together in my head and saw that this is how i’ve always been since i was little, but it had never affected me so much before. I will chose something to worry about for some reason and it will try to kill me. And It’s getting worse. Example: I used to worry about people dying, but i never just randomly got hit with the overwhelming thought that everyone i know will eventually cease to exists and end up bawling for a half hour, unable to leave my bed. Correct me if i’m wrong, but that ain’t normal. Or healthy. And afterwards, i can say to myself "Self, that was fucking crazy. What was up with that?" but my ability to do so during the bad moment (thus calming myself down) is almost gone. And the constant dwelling. Always with the dwelling. I am losing weight, fast. People compliment me on it, but it just terrifies me. Weight loss for me is bad, very very bad sign. maybe therapy will help me. Maybe i just need a vacation. Or maybe drugs will. So i asked.

i've been prescribed anti-depressants three times. i've never taken the doctor's up on their dares, though. your body compensates. when you take a medication that inhibits the uptake of seratonin in your brain, you may see short term benefits-- more seratonin in your brain. but your brain compensates. it starts producing less seratonin. which is worse than where you started. exercise increases your brain's production of seratonin. it's a hell of a lot safer than any pill. and they are bad for you, antigone. they have nasty potential side effects and they have nasty potential withdrawls. and the longer they are prescribed, the more problems we discover about them.

wisper...maybe i should be checking in just like you, but both of those posts, you referenced were never that startling or indicative of some sort of mental problem to me. i used to sadisticly think about my grandparents or my dog Dudley dying, as a child, and then id cry for a half hour. Im failing to see where the problem is. I got over it, moved on. Emotions aren't rationale many times, and to demand we being rational while being emotional isn't feasible. Just learn to apologize. I get overly emotional all the damn time, but pills would just make it worse. I don't think pills are the answer because I don't think you are as bad as you think you are. a change of scenary, a vacation, or exercise as nate suggests could help. if the weight loss is a problem, see cyst's prescription.

A brief synopsis of how antidepressants work,would be that essentially they interfere with the uptake of certain brain chemicals.Seratonin,dopamine,norepinephrine,etc. Frequently,the exact mechanism isn't completely understood. If one were to look in general at health/mental health,one would be surprised at how narrow the window is that is compatible with supporting life. Small deviances can actually throw people into critical situations,where homeostasis is not maintained.Amazingly small deviances. Frequently,in mental health,the neurotransmittors are out of whack.Sometimes,something as simple as taking a vitamin E,or vitamin C tablet daily,is enough to balance out the problem.Sometimes,something stronger is required. Unfortunately,there is not one answer that works for all,so alot of mental health,is trying different meds,in an attempt to find and correct the problem. I have actually seen a daily dose of Vitamin E cure something as serious as schizophrenia; It sounds like you are struggeling,and I would not attempt self medication,because as depressed as you sound,this could potentiate the problem. Seek medical attention.It is GREAT to not be depressed. As this happens to be one of my areas of expertise,if I can help in anyway,let me know.

I love it when people take anecdotal evidence and then generalize wildly. Some people need medication. Need it. Just because you don't and your friends don't and the guy in the cubicle around the corner doesn't, it doesn't mean that no one does. You're not weak or copping out if you take medication. Stop with the knee-jerking. Wisper, go to a doctor or therapist you trust. Tell him or her all of your past and current troubles, and tell him or her about your reluctance to take medication. See what they say.

how did people cope before there were SSRI drugs? wisper -- do you have the resources to try seeing a therapist for a while before resorting to drugs? that's what I advise.

Well,frequently,they were sent to scary-ass places,like Bedlam.And left there to truley go insane.

What I never understood are the people who do recreational drugs out the wazoo but the minute a pill is prescribed by a licensed physician, it's evil.

They didn't cope.

I second Rhiannon's suggestion about a therapist. Decisions like that require a knowledgable and dispassionate second opinion. And, Nate, I find it more than a bit hypocritical that you bash antidepressants while regularly boasting about your own use of hallucinogens. I also agree with Rhiannon's opinion on anectotal evidence. Saying "I've never met anyone who's been helped by antidepressants" doesn't mean anything. Everyone I've known who has used them has been helped by them, in some cases tremendously. Does that mean they would help everybody? Nope. But, that won't stop me from giving my own anecdote. :-) I self medicated for about six months with St John's Wort after suffering three years of nightly panic attacks. (I couldn't go to sleep without obsessing over my own mortality.) The antidepressant worked a bit, but didn't completely alleviate the attacks. The only thing that stopped them was regular exercize, and I've been pretty much free of them for the past six months.

i took a hands on class in psychopharmacology she prescribed everything. i refused. i thought it was stupid. that i was stronger, that i would be giving in. until one weekend that i didn't eat or sleep for three days and i didn't really need any help to hallucinate. i didn't want to drop out of school to figure it out. i took stuff it helped i don't take it now drugs and alcohol and food are self medication

Patrick, you have finally offended me. I find your last post insensitive and condescending. Please reconsider your evaluation.

spider, antigone, anyone: state clearly and plainly that anti-depressant medications are not over prescribed. you go into a doctor's office and mention that you feel tired all the time and they'll do two things: order a blood test to make sure you're thyroid is working right and ask you a set of questions such as "do you ever feel the need to hurt yourself or others?" "are you or have you conteplated suicide?" "do you feel depressed?" answer at least one of those questions yes and you might be depressed and they might just prescribe you something for it. what do most depressed americans really need? they need to sleep better. they need to eat more veggies. they need more vit. E and B-complex. they need to eat bigger breakfasts and smaller dinners. they need to eat less carbs. they need to exercise. they don't need to be prescribed habit forming drugs that can permanently interfere with your brain chemistry. which, spider, you should have learned in your psychopharmacology coursework. because that's where i learned it. (and antigone, i've never bragged about my psychedelic usage. i have effects from my drug use that may damn well be permanent, and coming to terms with that was a big part of my depression problems in the past.)

I'm not sure I can explain what it is, but I see a difference between occasional and daily use of drugs. I mean, I'll take some advil if I'm experiencing physical pain, or I'll have a couple drinks over the course of a week if I feel like it, or I'll take chloroquine if I think I may be exposed to malaria during a finite period of time. and I'll try most other things once or twice just for the experience. but for some reason I see a difference between that and signing up for daily, indefinite use of a drug that is going to screw with my brain. but, plus, I think all but about two of zillion people I've known who have been medicated for depression/anxiety I've felt have just been big lame whiners, and I wouldn't want to create that sort of association with them. yes, I know that is totally fucked. sorry. also, I used to work in the mental health department of an HMO, and after speed-reading stacls of chart notes, I noticed a definite pattern. almost all of the people being prescribed antidepressants somehow happened to have really fucking shitty lives. the therapists weren't allowed to spend time counseling these individuals about how they should, say, move out of the trailer with the boyfriend who threatened them with a knife every night, but instead got them on the happy drugs. I don't know. I guess all I'm saying is that a smith-kline beecham product wouldn't be the first thing I would turn to. try to get a hold of a good therapist first if you're lucky enough to have the resources for it.

in defense, i thought patricks post was just fine. A few weeks ago i was thinking the same things myself, people like to think that they're okay and normal. I would sure like to think that sometimes. And i would still think those things too, if i hadn't had the crying/screaming/laughing/sobing breakdown fit on the floor shortly after i wrote the "one of THOSE people" post. Only then did i admit that i probably really needed to seek some proffesional help. i have a good friend. both his parents are shrinks. i will call him. they might cut me a deal. fear not, i have no intention of demanding mood altering drugs without the guidance of a good doctor+therapist tag team. i just want this to stop, that's all. i won't be hasty.

i'm missing what patrick said that was offensive. somebody show me?

I was on antidepressants for two months one decade. They really sent me spiralling out of control, thanks to some inbuilt intolerance for the medication. I've read your posts and saw nothing really horribly wrong except maybe someone cares too much and is too hard on herself. However, when it's started to effect you physically (ie: losing weight), you may need something to change the wind direction. Go talk to someone. Consider short-term medication because it may give you a bit of a kick start back to the fun lane. Maybe just knowing you are taking action and facing the problem will help you to feel better. And be kind to yourself.

good advice.

what exactly are you offended by spider? ALl i said was i didn't see any indication of a problem in her two referenced posts. they sounded like common side effects of life in the 20th century. I was slightly joking when i said "learn to apologize". I've told you privately I'm not good in advising on mental diagnosis of all kinds. But i would suggest ANYONE try alternatives to the various pills prescribed for these things, such as zoloft, paxil,prozac, ritalin or buzpars. I've taken zoloft, paxil, buzpar and ritalin. The side effects were miserable, far worse than the perceived problem to begin with. Granted a few i took for "recerational" use, but others were indeed prescribed for stress and anxiety. and dougie...i don't discriminate against pills prescribed by a licensed doctor. I just discriminate WHAT is being prescribed and for why. Also factor in the commercial push by the drug companies. Drug companies are particularly because their issue at heart is not, thought they like to tout, the patients health, if anything its a patients ill-health they want. A healthy patient, is not a patient and therefore not buying their drugs.

I'm open to the possibility that antidepressants may be overprescribed, but just saying "They're bad. Don't do them" ain't constructive.

neither is "you're broken. this pill will fix you." constructive.

'scuse me that should be "drug companies are particularly EVIL..."

Yeah, if you're taking them, you also gotta talk it out with somebody. I found the coolest psychologist, he wasn't one who expected that I'd come for year after year -- he told me "you'll know when you're done with me." Wow, I've got that thing too where all of a sudden, like an unexpected wave, it hits me that my cat's going to die, or my mother, or me, or my girlfriend, or my sister, a feeling of complete emptiness and sorrow. And then I have a beer, and it's ok.

be kind to yourself that's the best advice. most of us wouldn't treat a stranger the way we treat ourselves sometimes.

I know antidepressants are overprescribed. it makes no sense (other than in terms of profits for HMOs and drug companies) that people whose lives are so fucked up that they are in actual physical danger come out of their first therapy meetings with a pat on the shoulder and a prozac prescription, when what they really need is sound advice about how to get away from their abusers. somewhere I have have notes about this -- I quoted a bunch of charts when I was working at that big HMO. I hated seeing dozens and dozens (probably hundreds) of cases in which the drugs were being handed out to make people less upset about their shitty lives, when the therapists should have been helping make their lives better. but the HMO wouldn't let them help because the drugs were cheaper. and a lot of the people I know who take antidepressants have had abusive boyfriends, have hated their jobs, etc. god, it fucking kills me to see friends take drugs in order to cope with being called a cunt by her asshole boyfriend. now that I've helped her ditch him, he wants my head on a platter. oh, well. fucking asshole.

Nate, point out where I, or anyone in this discussion, said "you're broken. this pill will fix you."

Cyst, Nate, just because antidepressants are abused by the HMO's and drug companies does not mean that they are always bad. Of course more is required to help a person than just prescribing a drug. That doesn't mean that the drug, in and of itself, is bad.

Zoloft isn't bad, I took it once for about 6 months, my problem was remembering to take it, or remembering if I took it. I'm really bad about that shit, it worked, made me feel less like everything was wrong but that probably was a plecebo effect. I guess I don't belive in the little bastards, if I feel shitty its for a reason and I fix it or deal with it. Fuck medication.

antigone, that is how antidepressants are prescribed. antidepressants are bad because the general population needs to be protected from itself. antidepressants are bad because people would rather take a pill than get off their ass and jog around for awhile. antidepressants are bad because pharm companies want to sell them, and not in quantities that match the portion of the population who actually need them.

nico took zoloft for a while.....it was great at first, then got weird. she threw them out. a bong hit and a glass of wine do her much better.

just the fact that almost everyone who has responded here has taken any one of the aforementioned drugs should be a cause for alarm. especially if you think of this site as a random sampling of society....which it very could be. we all didnt find this place by a common interest, we all just sorta stumbled upon it...for the most part, right?

"antigone, that is how antidepressants are prescribed" Really? Across the entire planet? Everywhere? Bullshit. Anyway, beyond that irresistable retort, I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat-fest with you here, Natypoo. This thread is about giving whisper some advice, not about us having another throwdown.

The people at this site are nothing close to a random sample of society, patrick.

sure it is. other than children, we have a very ecclectic mix of people here, from all walks of life.

no. we are way more likely to be depressed and neurotic than the average person.

Yes, in some ways we are ecclectic. In others, we definately are not. Most people I've told about this site don't find it the least bit interesting and don't hang around, even those who I thought would really like it.

after this "Ignore Nate." i took my advice for wisper to email. you can keep your tits and tats, antigone. but every thread is a throwdown.

If Sorabji Nation was reflective of your society...God Save America. I'm thinking at least McDonalds would serve sushi and vodka. And the national sport would be jello wrestling, not silly old baseball. And you could bet every politician is going to be declaring that they did inhale.

the national sport is football. american football. but you're right about the rest of it. fuck america. and fuck antigone's friends.

You are my friend, so fuck yourself.

i do, fuckstain. my nerve personal even says i do it often. and when we get to NO we'll find out if you're always there to give a friend a hand.

You can lend yourself a sphincter. I'll watch.

yeah, like that works. you may be able to get it in with a partial, but once it's in it doesn't stay a partial.

I am so hurt,I'm crippled inside,I'm so sorry.

aw, janny. damn. damn.

1) Listen to Antigone. And no, this is not a random sample of the population. 2) When someone tells you they're in a lot of distress, they're losing weight, they're "on the edge of tears 24 hours a day," and they've always had these kind of feelings though this episode is the worst, and you tell them they seem fine to you, that is no help at all. That is saying, "you don't have a problem, you're exaggerating, if you just cheered up you'd be better." That is insensitive and unkind. Patrick, I know you meant well - I just want to point out the way your words can be read. Nate, anti-depressants are not habit-forming. And Prozac won't even let you OD. Some people have real mental problems. Honestly, they do. They're not weak, they're not whiners, and they don't need to feel ashamed of themselves. Either the way they think or the things they do or the neurotransmitters in their heads or a combination of all three are somehow causing them distress. All three of these things can be fixed. When someone reveals to you that they think they have a mental illness, you don't dismiss or minimize what they're saying, because in all likelihood that will make them feel worse. They'll still feel bad and on top of that they may feel bad about feeling bad "for no reason." The fact that medication is sometimes prescribed to people who don't need it doesn't detract from the value of its prescription to people who do need it. Why is this so hard for some of you to understand? For the record, I think medication should never be prescribed without simultaneous therapy, especially for depression. Studies show that *all* forms of talk therapy alleviate depression, because the very act of talking to someone about your problems in an environment in which you won't be judged and don't need to censor yourself is beneficial to your mental health. Studies have also shown that talk therapy with OCD patients affects the brain in the very same way that SSRIs do. (Different disorder, but you can generalize the results.) Talk therapy is good.

the only problem with 'therapy' is that therapists are the most fucked up functioning people on the earth friends friend therapy

Would somebody please order a dump truck to load up all the bullshit generalizations in this thread?

once, i was fucked up. then one day my sighchiatrist prescribed bullshit generalizations and knee-jerk reactions to me, and i've been fine ever since. best thing for you.

Antigone, if ever you come to DC I'll take you out for coffee.

I second Spider. In fact, I had been trying to express the same sentiments, but failing... so I didn't post. It can make people feel terrible to be told that they don't have any problems. Particularly when they feel quite strongly that they do. I've known some hypochondriac whiners. They tend to have some pretty common characteristics. Often their lives/lifestyles suck like cyst was talking about. Not all people who take medication for depression are of this type. Wisper does not strike me as this type. I'm so glad I finally decided to seek help about my own problems. I spent most of my life being told that I needed to try harder. I was told that I was lazy. I believed them. In 6th grade I hid crying in the bathroom after getting my standardized IOWA test scores. I had been hoping that maybe I'd turn out to be stupid, then it would be ok for me to barely pass my classes. It would be ok that I couldn't do better. I had placed in the 99th percentile. My teacher had then proceeded to yell at me about how I was smart and should be getting straight A's and how I was unbearably lazy. My mother did much the same thing through my whole life. After talking with my therapist recently, she said that I did exhibit signs of depression, but that it was likely a symptom of my inability to focus even on things I enjoyed. It gave me too much time to tell myself that I was a lazy worthless shit. I do feel better about myself. I'm still generally unsure of myself, and sometimes berate myself for blaming too much on ADD or relying on the drugs. Most often though, I know it helps me. Side effects are minimal and are decreasing with time. Unfortunately Adderall is quite addictive. I don't think there's an ADD medication that isn't. But it's something I've been discussing with my therapist, and it's something I'll need to deal with. Wisper, good luck with this. My girlfriend does the very things you describe. I'd be glad to tell you more about that. If you do indeed experience this with the severity and frequency you describe, then talk therapy is a great first step. I'm also glad that you decided to find out about different medications before going in. It will help you to separate the pill dispensers from the people who can help you... and also to decide what, if any, medication is acceptable to you.

the only problem with [the] 'therapy' [i've experienced] is that [the people i have seen on various occasions were not helpful and had no way of connecting with what i was saying. the woman who offered drugs was visibly uncomfortable talking to me and i was supposed to be the one falling apart] "therapists are the most fucked up functioning people on the earth" perhaps a ridiculous statement- but someone i was very close to and who has worked as a case worker along with many therapists and psychiatrists has agreed with me some people seek out to fix what they are afraid of in themselves

Heather, I agree with you to some extent, but not that therapists are all that way. I've known several therapists, having been a psychology major in college. An ex girlfriend's mom is a psychologist. My uncle is an addiction counselor. A few friends in my psych department who were on the clinical track were kinda fucked up. A couple were royally fucked up. My ex girlfriend's mom was the most uptight human being I've ever met. But having known these people does not make me think that all therapists are fucked up people. "some people seek out to fix what they are afraid of in themselves" True. But you can't write off all therapists because of that. Just be more choosy.

spider: SSRIs inhibit the reuptake of seratonin in your brain (and in your blood, consequently.) they do so with with a variety of side effects, from craps like butterscotch pudding to sexual dysfunction to intense suicidal feelings. there is also the potential for withdrawl issues. physical exercise increases the seratonin in your brain. it does so with a variety of side effects, including better health and a longer life. the net effect is the same. which would you prescribe? (yes, i am well aware that exercise won't increase seratonin levels in everyone. this is the tiny fraction of the population for whom SSRIs are appropriate for.)

I heard antigone...and when you consider how we all randomly got here, to sorabji, not by any common interest (its not like we were all doing research on Sorabji and ended up here), its a random slice of the american population. You are american, you found this place randomly (no?), so as far as Im concerned sorabji is a random slice of the population. I'm not concerned with concrete, Pugh research, statistical sampling methodology. spider sez: 2) When someone tells you they're in a lot of distress, they're losing weight, they're "on the edge of tears 24 hours a day," and they've always had these kind of feelings though this episode is the worst, and you tell them they seem fine to you, that is no help at all. That is insensitive and unkind. the thing is spider I didnt say this "That is saying, 'you don't have a problem, you're exaggerating, if you just cheered up you'd be better.'" I DIDN'T say anything of the sort. I DIDN'T say she was exagerrating. I DIDN'T say she didnt have any problems, her references however seemed polarized by perhaps a current mood TO ME, her references didn't seem indicative of any mental illness. If im upset and I say "im a horrible horrible person" and you say, "patrick i don't see any indication you are a horrible person". Are YOU the insensitive one? I didnt take wipser's post as a confession to mental illness. You need to classify and categorize and even diagnose spider doesn't always apply, to everything, everybody, everywhere. wipser certainly wasn't looking for a professional opinion, but rather that of friends, and as a friend i would say the same thing again. so, im sorry if you were offended, but Im not sorry for what i said. Wisper and you are perfectly within your right to think me an asshole for it and Im ok with that.

Spider, if you're ever in New Orleans, I'll take you for crawfish étouffée. :-P

Patrick, those who come here might be random, but those that stay are not.

I never would have thought trace would have stuck around. Swine left. Dougie managed to hang around after initially blasting a whole music genre. I've tangle with sarah, heather and others in very ugly ways, and we get along just fine. its not random anymore because, well, time disolves that. thats stating the obvious.

Christ I'm scared now.

this is so not a random sampling of the american population. I mean, for one, we're all literate, geeky english speakers who have access to the internet.

"its not random anymore because, well, time disolves that. thats stating the obvious." Yep. That's what I was stating. :-) You can give me my anti-smugass pill now.

Nate, I learned exercise releases endorphins, which can cause feelings of euphoria. I have never come across anything linking serotonin and exercise. (Not to say that they're not linked - I just haven't heard that before.) Patrick, I don't think you're an asshole. My "need to classify" is very relevant here. I have a degree in psychology. I studied and was trained to recognize mental disorders. Wisper didn't say she was a horrible person - she mentioned weight loss, loss of appetite, crying spells, trouble sleeping, feelings of losing control....these are symptoms of a major depressive episode. And, you know, if she did say she was a horrible person, that would fit in with the depression and I would certainly tell her that's not true. That wouldn't be invalidating. I know you didn't say that she was exaggerating, etc. and you probably didn't even think that. But your words could come across that way - they did to me. I understood, "hey, from the two or three posts you've made here, you don't sound unhappy to me" with "so you must not be" left implied. Yeah, I know I'm reading that last bit into what you said. My point is that I'm not necessarily the only one who would do so, so just be careful, is all. There's a big difference from having bad moods or getting very emotional once in a while and being Depressed with a capital D. Same with Panic Attacks. Everyone gets nervous and scared and shaky once in a while. Not everyone checks themselves into a hospital because they're so shaky and scared they think they're having a heart attack and are about to die. Depressive episodes and panic attacks are at the far end of the spectrum. They are not normal. Most people never have them. I just got in trouble for writing here instead of working. Bye for now.

are we forgetting the definition of "random" here? when you randomly reach into a bowl of jelly beans, it is totally possible to pick up more black jelly beans than any other color. the idea of random is there is no order. picking teams at random means you could possibly end up with better players on one team. Spider i understand you and I also don't regard field of psychology as much as you. I don't think the human mind can be compartmentalized as much as psychologists like to think.

I'm not forgetting the definition of random, patrick. We just might be thinking of different definitions. The selection process that produces the "regulars" on this message board is definately not random. "I don't think the human mind can be compartmentalized as much as psychologists like to think." They probably don't like to think that as much as you'd like to think they do.

*sigh* how can you be so confident that you know the "selection" process in which the "regulars" stay here. Im sure people have different reasons, and then again maybe they don't.

what are you saying, patrick? doesn't everyone who posts on sorabji have regular access to the internet and know how to read and write in english? by those qualifications alone, we cannot be a random sampling of the american adult population. (and, besides, we aren't all american.) you could further qualify us by saying that we like to read and write. many of us like to argue in writing. we like this web message board. a truly random sampling of adult american citizens would be extremely difficult to reach. especially on the internet, where those who are literate, wealthy, english-speaking, and libertarian are overrepresented. you can obtain different levels of randomness with different methods. calling random phone numbers would be better, but still you're only reaching people who have phones, who speak the language of the caller. and you're more likely to get a hold of homebodies than active people. I think you're the one who doesn't understand random, patrick.

if you pick up a handful in a bowl that only contains black jelly beans, then all the jelly beans you pick up are going to be black. if you poll sorabjites, you are going to get opinions from people who are literate, english-speaking internet users. (and not everyone in america is a literate, english-speaking internet user.) it's no wonder statistics-quoting newspaper stories can fool so many people.

All I know is if I wasn't medicated,under my present circumstances,I'd be behind bars or in the rubber room.I have already been there and didn't like my stay.

you are being too literal when I say random slice of american populus. you could say there is no such thing as random sample of america because we all have red blood and live on oxygen. wtf? the fact that we are literate in english and have access to the internet are indeed commonalities but not enough to disqualify us as a random sample. random by the reasons were we all brought here. but when you reach into a jar of jelly beans, of all kinds, it is possible to pick up a majority of the same kind. the idea of random, i understand well. it is you, who are trying to apply order to concept of random. Im totally comfortable that a random selection of beans (for example) can have more like beans than not.

HEY J: I HOPE YOU WERE NOT OFFENDED BY ANYTHING I HAVE SAID. I HAVE NOT INTENDED TO OFFEND YOU. I VALUE YOU VERY MUCH. NATE ..

by the way cyst, thanks for the Seattle rag, it was thoughtful of you to wait for the Best Of issue to come out!!!!!

I'm not offended Nate,J loves you.I sure got offended yesterday,by Amee though,shaking mad,then I went to my room before it got out of hand.

My Two Cents; FIRST -- go to the doctor ASAP & get a complete work up. Make sure they check yr TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone) estrogen, testosterone (yes, girls make testosterone too/just not as much) & progesterone levels/& yr blood sugar. If any of these are out of whack/it can lead to depression. SECOND: Do a Personal Inventory Diary-type thing for a week. Make sure you include some excercise time (at least 30 min. 3x a week. You'd be surprised how many people get depressed just becuz they're too damn sedentary). And some medditation time each day. And whatever else you normally do in yr life. Buy one of those mini-notebooks & make notes abt how you feel -- not abtwhat's happening but HOW YOU FEEL -- each morning after when you get up/again sometime in the middle of the day/then right before you go to bed. Just make brief notes abt yr mood & state of mind -- I feel tired/lonely/relaxed/hopeful/ fearful/giddy -- whatever. Don't spend a lot of time analyizing the feelings -- just observe & record them. Make careful notes abt how you feel after spending time w/people &/or phone conversations. At the end of 7 days/read thru yr notes & make a tick sheet of how often certain words occur: Tired, Lonely, Afraid, Anxious, Sleepy, Content, Happy/etc. Then look at the 3 or 4 words you used most often to describe yr moods. Those will give you an accurate idea of yr state of mind. Also note the time of day the most-frequently- occurring moods came up. Then look at yr life & see if there's shit going on that you SHOULD be dpressed abt. If not/& if you have no medical problems/then you have to decide if you want to try meds or not. ---------------------------------------------- I'd try St. John's Wort first if you want to go the medication route. At least it doesn't kill yr libido or make you suicidal when you come off it. Anti-despressants work for millions of people --depending on how you define 'work' -- but I don't trust them as far as I cd spit them. I've only known 2 people who've used them. One was a guy who said they hadn't helped after 3 wks. & came off them w/no problems. Eventually/his life got good -- he met someone & fell in love & voila! All better. One was grieving the death of her husband after 40-odd years of marriage/& some idiot doctor puts her on Prozac. When yr spouse dies/you're SUPPOSED to be depressed! But in the good ol' U.S.of A./nobody is allowed to be depressed or for more than a week without them shoving a pill at you. After a couple of months/she developed severe insomnia & nearly lost her mind. When she came off the pills/she was okay 2 wks later. Still a bit depressed/but she'd also taken the time to sort out her feelings w/ the help of a clergyman & realized her mouring was going to last as long as her grief -- which she was entitled to. That was abt 2 years ago. She's fine now & not on any meds. I had a bout of moderate depression a few mos. back. Took St. John's Wort liquid extract (3x daily/1 eyedropperful) for about a month. And I did feel better & more able to cope. When I stopped taking it/I had no side effects. From all that you've said here, Wisper/you might want to try Cognitive Therapy. Sounds like yr problem is that yr mind runs away w/itself. Obsessing on things you can't control -- like the fact that everyone dies eventaully. That's a thought process disorder -- not depression per se. But having screwed-up thought-processes *can* make you deeply depressed. As far as the first post you linked to: Bottom line is YOU are responsible for the people you allow to be in yr life. If someone -- friend or lover -- is treating you badly/& you've told them & they won't change their behavior/then they have no business being part of yr life. Cut 'em lose. Sounds trite/but until you do it & see how much better you feel not having top deal with So-&-So anymore/you don't realize how taxing they were when they were around. Sartre was right: Hell is other people. That's why I live w/cats.

patrick, of the many levels of "randomness," we are not very random at all. "you could say there is no such thing as random sample of america because we all have red blood and live on oxygen. wtf?" no, I am not saying that. a random sampling of adult american citizens would all be red-blooded O2 breathers. a random sampling of american citizens would not all be internet users. and those things I mentioned -- english, internet, literate -- were only the *absolute* disqualifiers of our randomness. I would also say that on sorabji, people who are 40 or younger are vastly overrepresented. childless adults are overrepresented. white people are overrepresented. I bet we have a higher-than-average IQ, by whatever reasonable standard one could employ. people against the war on drugs are overrepresented here. nader voters, overrepresented. churchgoers, underrepresented. do you get it now? we are so, so, so not random. how many latinos regularly post to sorabji? certainly not in the kind of percentages that they comprise in the total u.s. population. how many labor union members do we have here?

this is retarded

its entirely possible cyst to reach into the pot of america and pull out the sorabji people. its a slim chance yes, but entirely possible.

I have never been,nor shall I ever be,considered geeky. This thread has gotten out of control.Everyone cares for Whisper.Everyone has offered advice. In some cases,it is best to accept advice from those trained in a specific area. You would not take your car that needed new brakes,to a hairdresser. Spider,Antigone have offered sound advice.Thank God. Nate,you need to shut the fuck up.You are proffering advice on a very serious matter.You are indeed entitled to your opinion.But in this matter,you are not qualified to give sound advice. Christ,we can see how well adapted you are,by some of your late night posts.Give this friend advice,but stop trying to qualify it.I reiterate,you are entitled to your opinion,but don't blast off some lame ass advice,as gospel. Whisper,only you know how hard of a time you are having.There are qualified people out there,who can perhaps help you through this.Take this thread,for what it is worth.Friends trying to offer advice.If you needed a valve in your heart replaced,you wouldn't go to Nate,or Patrick,or me. You would seek out a cardiovascular specialist. And Cyst,to a certain degree,you are correct.Dysfunctional people,lead dysfunctional lives.It is almost impossible to "help" them change these patterns.If we were all alike,and say everyone thought like me,it would truley be a boring existence.We need diversity.But someones mental health,is not something to be played with. Whisper,seek out qualified help.Then discuss the options of meds.Only you know how badly you are feeling. And one last point,of reality: THERE ARE INDEED PHYSICAL NEEDS FOR INTERVENTION.TAKE ALASKA FOR EXAMPLE,WHERE THERE IS AN EXTREMELY HIGH RATE OF DEPRESSION,DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO SUN,FOR HALF OF THE YEAR,TO BURN OF MELATONIN.HIGH LEVELS OF MELATONIN,CAUSE DEPRESSION,BURN IT OFF,BY SUN,OR LIGHT THERAPY,AND PRESTO,DECREASE YOUR DEPRESSION.

Cyst is right. "Random sample" is a specific statistical term -- a set of items that have been drawn from a population in such a way that each time an item was selected, every item in the population had an equal opportunity to appear in the sample.

Amen, Czarina! Patrick, you're right, it is possible to pick any set of people out of a population at random. What difference does that make? You're just being stubborn.

Czarina is right, too.

Czarina cares about Whisper,and everyone else here,too.[she even worries about Nate,and his late night posts]

thanks, spider. I know I am being stubborn and boring, but for some reason it bothers me that someone would think that sorabji represents a real cross-slice of america. by his logic, you could say that the dionne quintuplets represent a random sampling of americans.

i think you guys are being stubborn with your fancy clinical definitons and whirlybirds. difference does it make???? you are freaks that have been disputing my deeming the folks here a "random sampling of society", which was my original statement and I still stand by it. its you guys that have been gnawing it pointlessly. you tell ME what fucking difference it makes. No wait, dont, i don't care.

my original claim was "random sample of society" and that makes the most sense to me, maybe not cross section, but random sample.

i mean how much do we REALLY have in common here? how alike are we? we have more differences than similarities I think.

The important thing,is that we are here :)

We do enough bitching about the general population of America/The World, etc. that I think makes some of us vaguely uncomfortable to be referred to as part of a random sampling of these same people. I like coming here because of the people. I don't post to any other similar things on the internet because they irritate or just bore me. Sorabji.com is special to me. I'm glad you all found your way here, randomly or otherwise.

we are the general population. we are nothing special.

Patrick, you are misusing a precise term and you refuse to admit it. That is why we won't let this go. The only way to select a true random sample of Americans would be to take all the birth records in the country and put them in a box, mix them up real good, and reach in and grab some handfuls. There are probably some people out there without birth records, but I would bet that's a statistically insignificant number of people. Statistical significance is another precise term that is often misused.

"Spider,Antigone have offered sound advice.Thank God. Nate,you need to shut the fuck up.You are proffering advice on a very serious matter.You are indeed entitled to your opinion.But in this matter,you are not qualified to give sound advice. " this is crap. nothing personal, czarina. if you want to save your soul you don't go to the priest who's buggering the alterboys. this is a very serious matter. these drugs are serious drugs. i'm as qualified as anyone who has given advice. where is danielssss? that creepy bastard is probably the more qualified of any of us speaking. a degree is psych isn't qualification. c'mon spider, with your degree you should know flat out that you're not qualified to make a prognosis. i know half a billion psych majors. the village that raised me was full of mfccs and phds. every woman from 1960 on who couldn't find "home economics" on the degree list chose psych. can anyone here write the prescription? i think not. there is no mind/body duality. it's one thing. one system. you fuck with one end and you'll eat it on the other. my advice to wisper was simple: try fixing the diet and exercising first. it takes 10 days max to start feeling a difference. if you don't feel a difference, seek other options. people want a pill-fix for everything. it's not the best way. it should be a last resort. i know it's the big fad around here to tell me to fuck off and to suggest ignoring me. but goddamnit, i'm not wrong here. don't write me off without listening.

I thought R. C. had some good ideas too. Although some people report light sensitivity when using St. John's Wort and it shouldn't be used with any other MAO inhibitors.

and, by the way, as creedence goes, this is the same advice i got from my medical doctor. not the first three who asked me the same 10 questions and then said "well, you're probably depressed. take this prescription for [zoloft|prozac|paxil]. my current doctor. who talked to me for over an hour about what was going on. gave me a bunch of options. told me he'd prescribe an antidepressant if i wanted him to, but that exercise and a better diet is what most depressed people need.

Nate, your first statement on this thread was, "they're bad for you. avoid them." Your bias is clear. Fuck off.

I'm not making a diagnosis. I said it sounds like depression. You want I should post the criteria so you can see for yourself?

we are not a random sample of society. when was the last time you took a good, hard look at the general population? it actually sort of scares me that intelligent people can look at a group of educated, smart, literate, English-speaking, more than 75% white, more than 75% high school graduates, more than half under the age of 36, Internet-using, predominantly white-collar people that contains NO children, toddlers, or infants, and say, "we are the general population." no, no, no, no, no -- we are NOT the general population. I think a lot of people like to forget about the fact that there are people who can't read. there are a LOT of people who can't read, and of course even more who can't type. there are a lot of people who don't speak english. there are a lot of factory workers. a lot of little kids. a lot of people who pick apples in the orchards of central washington -- and none of them has ever posted on sorabji! please, just don't act dumb. we are not dumb. we are not america. not everyone is like us. don't fucking pretend. I think a lot of crap is justified when people pretend that everyone else has the same advantages that they do.

spider my original statement was "random sample of society". hardly precise in the context it was used. gimme a break already! I was not quoting anything of any scholarly nature. i was speaking in a general sense. other than our commonalities, in internet use and english language, no one has YET to prove how we are NOT a random sample of society. You could say everyone has the opportunity to access the web, read english, and type. hows this for those who need all Ts crossed and Is dotted.... we are a random sample of people on the internet in westernized nations who managed to eat hot ass along the way and realized they liked the company they held at sorabji dot fucking com! does that make the nitpickers happy?????

Patrick, you said... "just the fact that almost everyone who has responded here has taken any one of the aforementioned drugs should be a cause for alarm. especially if you think of this site as a random sampling of society...." That's why I'm harping on your concept of a "random sample."

NO. "other than our commonalities, in internet use and english language, no one has YET to prove how we are NOT a random sample of society. You could say everyone has the opportunity to access the web, read english, and type." NO.

spider: "You want I should post the criteria so you can see for yourself?" the list that is printed on those cards they hand out at the doctors office? the list that is in the chapter on depression in the intro the psychology textbooks? the list that constitutes the questions that most doctors ask anyone who might be depressed? and how does a depression clasification indicate the need for medication? antigone: your first statement was: "They're not bad for you. Ignore Nate." your bias is clear. take a look at the side effects.

and spider, stop arguing with patrick. you're arguing against your education.

when I said "none of them has ever posted on sorabji," I specifically meant migrant farm workers in washington. it's possible that a factory worker or someone's little kid has posted here, but they're not regulars. spider -- birth records would definitely not be random. between 10 and 20% of the u.s. population is foreign-born! a truly pure random sampling of the american population would be impossible to obtain. the census people try pretty hard and come up with some good numbers (that still are skewed toward those with stable homes, of course, and underrepresent urban minorities, for example). you could also poll those with SSNs, and that would be fairly representative. but people on sorabji are far from random. sorabjites are not a random sampling of the u.s. populace by any even close to reasonable definition.

ok cyst thats really great an all , and i refer to myself as "general population" probably due to some mental disorder (that spider can give me a name for) that prompts me to self defeat all the time. im not an artist im not a great thinker or philosopher i have an average brain, average talents and average looks. i am so fucking general, i don't know about anyone else's advantages or disadvantages, just my own. but thats neither hear or there. when i made my original statement i wasn't thinking about the poor apple pickers and illiterate factory workers. i will say again, there is no proof that one could do as spider suggested, put all of our birth certificates in a box, reach in and grab us. there is no proof that THAT couldnt happen. the idea of random is that there is no order, no predictability, anything is possible. im getting really cranky about this. I think its possible for me to be right in the context i meant it in.

if you were to random sample in a way that suits you cyst, are you saying you COULDN'T come up with all, or almost all sorabji users? are you saying thats not possible?

of all the things to get fired up about this is really retarded. hey wisper i think you just diagnosed our group psychosis with your catalyst of a post/inquiry.

i think patrick's point is that if you threw everyone in the world in a giant box and extracted 5, it is possible to get 5 sorabjiites. in fact, the probability of getting 5 sorabjiites is the same as getting any other 5 specific people. i think what cyst and spider are saying is that this means nothing in context of what we're talking about. now everyone, stop being so fucking retarded. i'm the only clear mind in the bunch.

Nate, absolutely no one here is arguing for knee jerk use of antidepressants. No one. Not a single person. If I, Spider, Czarina, TBone, or anyone else irked by your rant are biased towards anything it's being reasonable and considering all of your options before making a decision about treating yourself for depression. What is so bad about that?

what is so bad about that? WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT THAT? aside that's basically my point? antidepressants are bad. you shouldn't take them unless you're out of options.

so why are you all irked?

"i'm the only clear mind in the bunch" I think what you are is the most conceited. That's saying a lot given the highly nonrandom distribution of arrogant people in this group. :-)

I think you guys would argue with Jesus if you could get him to listen to you.

I was irked because you were advising that whisper cut off an option that she might need. I don't know about the others. You can have a cavalier attitude all you want, but when you're have that attitude when dealing with other people's health it pisses me off. Fucking sue me.

ok. if there were some way to randomly sample the american populace, the chances of picking out five american sorabjites would be the same as the chances of picking out the backstreet boys. true. but is that the point that patrick was really trying to get across? if so, why?

Nate, I think we are clear on what you think and you've made some great points. You don't need to restate it till everyone shuts up. This is not win or lose. It's live and learn.

"This is not win or lose. It's live and learn." Yee haw!

you all need to get a job. ah. i am so tired.

"when dealing with other people's health it pisses me off" me too. ""i'm the only clear mind in the bunch" I think what you are is the most conceited" that was included for the joseph heller factor. "You don't need to restate it till everyone shuts up." i do to. especially when people tell me to fuck off and shut up.

Same goes for you too Antigone :p You two really ought to take it outside occasionally. Or do a nakey jello wrestle we can all really enjoy.

i'm being lazy and not getting wrapped up in the conversation where it currently is. i'll just say my own opinions about anti-depressants. 1) do not let your doctor push you into some extremely well known medication. pharmeceutical companies spend billions of dollars advertising in medical journals rather than presenting the simple facts. this money spent on advertising will show up on your prescription bill. 2) some people have violent reactions to medication that cause them to move on to "soap-opera syndrome" meaning they go manic and do things to mess up their shitty lives even more. 3) taking a medication is not a long term solution to the problem. it is a way to denying the reality and severness of the situation. chances are, if you're depressed, it's not a chemical imbalance in your brain. it's your satisfaction with your current lot. 4) other solutions that can cause your body to be happy: -masturbation -chocolate -dancing/exercise -sex -picking up a new hobby -stopping to smell the roses -taking a bubble bath -gardening generally getting back to nature and participating in activities YOU really enjoy will help. no glass of water required. 5) another thing is to document what really bugs you, make a long list and be as precise as possible. try to arrange your life as to avoid these things or learn to enjoy them. i guess that's it. can you tell i'm anti-meds?

Dear Nate,no one here could ever write you off or ignore you.You are indeed an intrical part of our Sorabjisociety.And I can assure you,that no one enjoys your posts,more than I. I,and perhaps the others,who happen to work/or have been educated in this field of mental health,were very easily able to pickup on the warning signs in Whispers posts.We are very worried.I'm sure you are,too.We just don't want her to rule out getting proffessional help,by trying to self medicate/treat herself,when perhaps proffessional help is needed. I offer this in peace: "Fuck you,you ass"

Alcohol's bad for you... Granted many people have had positive experiences with it, but it's addictive, effects your thinking, and it can kill you. Most of you'd ignore me and/or think I was stupid if I declared that it's bad for you and none of you should use it unless you were out of options. Yeah. That was dumb. Please do not take that to be an argument of any kind. Regarding the "random" thing. I say some people need a little nap. "try fixing the diet and exercising first. it takes 10 days max to start feeling a difference. if you don't feel a difference, seek other options." That sounds like good advice to me. I meant to say that earlier, but I missed. But I think most of the arguing isn't about this stuff so much. It's about people making blanket statements and implications carried with those. For instance "drugs are bad for you" implying that "drugs can't help, ever." If that was the inteded implication, then my apologies and the irking may proceed. Sorry to pick on nate for my example, but it was the most readily available one. I think the randomness argument was a symptom of that same feeling. Wisper, I'm sure you've either stopped visiting this thread or made some sort of decision by now. What do you think?

you ass kissers as far as i understood, violent reactions [rages and such] have come from people's reactions to going off of such drugs, not being on them

I agree with pez and nate. better meds than suicide, but they should be the last resort. doing a lot of talking with friends/counselors first off. healthy living (diet, exercise, sleep) second. fundamental lifestyle changes (job, living situation, partner, etc.), if needed, third. then meds after all else hasn't helped at all. I know that most people do not go through all the steps before filling the prescription.

ach. I wish there was a pause feature on this thing. I always feel like my posts are awkward and out of place if a bunch of people post while I'm typing. I'm too damn long-winded.

"as far as i understood, violent reactions [rages and such] have come from people's reactions to going off of such drugs, not being on them" the same can be said for cocaine, heroin and so on. it's because you're addicted. not because they're nessessarily doing any good.

"ach. I wish there was a pause feature on this thing." "I always feel like my posts are awkward and out of place if a bunch of people post while I'm typing. I'm too damn long-winded." i know the feeling. post something and there've been at least two in between. but this is a hot topic.

no. it's not because you're addicted. it is nothing like heroin.

i don't mean because you get high from it, but it's because your mind has to depend on these chemicals for everyday life. artificial optimism.

"but is that the point that patrick was really trying to get across? if so, why?" no cyst, my point, after being ridiculously over evaluated was that we have a really good cross section of people here. young, old, married, not, with children, without, gay, straight, bi, students, graduates and non graduates, professionals, freelancers, desk jockies, homemakers with all kinds of tastes. Though race diversity maybe slightly neglected, everything else sums a pretty damn diverse group of people. this was my point.

(or your mind has been fighting those chemicals by reducing your seratonin production.)

I love to celebrate diversity. I think I'm going to request that the manager of my apartment put locks on the garbage and recycling, like the neighborinbg building does. fucking meth freak was there at 7:30 a.m. today. I was all like, um, hi, can I throw away my garbage now? please excuse the biological refuse -- it was time to empty the bathroom canister. thanks!

i live in the "most diverse neighborhood in all of Los Angeles" and I love it. In 3 weeks we have the annual Sunset Junction street fair. Ie harped on it years before, I know. Angry Sam and his bro have their annual party, so we just meander back and forth between the party and the street fair. Men in leather with their gimps on chains, families of all races, teens, skaters, punkers, gang bangers, hippies, lesbians, hipsters of all sorts comeout to drink beer, ride carny rides, eat meat off a stick. cant beat it.

in a way, though, doesn't that sort of diversity seem sort of homogenous in its own new-urban way? where are the labor union factory workers, the mormons, the george bush voters, the wal-mart shoppers, the fundamentalists? I know that a lot of people think of my neighborhood as "diverse" because there are a lot of bi-curious vegetarians with artificially colored hair, but, god, what crap. that coffee place I hate had on its chalkboard the other day, "what do you want to protest today?" -- and that so summed up the phony alternative lifestyle bullshit that everyone here is so fucking proud of. just because you live in seattle, own a cat o' nine tails, have a "call 911, make a cop come" bumper sticker, and drink at the right coffee shop does not mean your superiority complex is justified. if you ask me, a fair with men in leather with their gimps on chains, teens, skaters, punkers, gang bangers, hippies, lesbians, and hipsters sounds pretty fucking boring. I would way the fuck rather go to the county fair and look at barnyard animals. but I'm on some ridiculous quest for authenticity, and the closer I get, the further away I will actually be. even if I got in touch with the nearest chapter, I'm sure the 4H club would want nothing to do with me.

Just trollin' fer alienation, ain't ye? No matter where you go, there it is.

my neighborhood doesnt sound like yours. i too scoff at the "bi-curious, colored hair vegetarians" but the eclectism in my neighborhood has been here. this fair started over 20 years ago because the huge gay population was at odds with the lower class latino population. they made this fair to help ease the tensions. i spent a good portion of my adolescence going to the suburban and even rural fairs, and getting my ass kicked because i had a skateboard or funny lookin hair and clothes. Im in no rush to go out to the sticks in the name of "authenticity". the diversity is pretty deep rooted and old in silverlake. There isnt the activism in Silverlake as it sounds where you are at. i think seattle would make me constantly annoyed.

I guess I prefer to feel alienated at some livestock exhibit at a county fair than at home at my neighborhood block party (quasi! mudhoney!), because at least then I don't have to deal with the rage of caliban.

I was on Elavil for a while. It is an antidepresent. I always took it just before I went to bed. It had strong sexual side effects. I did not suffer any withdrawals after I stopped taking it. I also took indoral for blood pressure. I stopped taking it 2 months after the elavil. I did not have side effects, but I did have serious panic attacks after I stopped taking it.

you know, if people don't understand what you're saying, it could be that you're not saying it very well. or they could be pricks, i guess.

Yes, I have no opinion. Thanks, Heather. Thanks, Nate. I've never been called a creepy bastard before. I've been called a therapist before. Not sure which I like better. But thanks anyway.

um daniel. from what i recall you said that you're against therapy, therefore to me you would not be a therapist. anyway. for all possible therapists and those who might be seen as such i apologize. excuse my extreme bitterness for all things psych, it's personal.

randomnotrandomrandomnotrandomrandomnotrandom. medicationnotmedicationmedicationnotmedication. therapy.

To think I was getting mad about this yesterday. I apologize, especially to Patrick. Last night, this guy that my roommate is seeing on and off (aka the Greek) came over and we made dinner for him. Before he arrived I had the equivalent of an orange juice-sized glass of wine. Apparently that's too much for me to handle. I went down to the lobby to see him up and had to sit down in one of the chairs. When he arrived and we went back to my apartment, I swayed and stumbled in the halls, and I talked way too much at dinner and said all sorts of personal things I'm regretting now, and now I have a headache. I had, like, 6 oz. of red wine. I'm pathetic.

Wow, what an image.

Heh. I probably just seemed a little more silly than usual. I didn't slur my words or anything.

Because, you know, I wasn't drunk or nuthin. I was just tipsy.

awww i was thinking you were gonna be all hoppin mad at me today too, especially for this comment "and i refer to myself as 'general population' probably due to some mental disorder (that spider can give me a name for) that prompts me to self defeat all the time" im sorry too. Awwww golly shucks i watched this really cool series on PBS, Stories of the Dead last night, what a cool fucking docudrama. Last night they discussed the possibilities of syphillis being traced back to pre-Columbus days to a friary in England, the Hull friary. In uncovering the burial plots, they realized that people were buried in such a manner as to put the prestigious as close to alter (as they could spiritual and monetarily afford). One of the closest bodies to the alter had syphillis, most likely one of the head monks. They also talked about the vast amounts of imported wine the monks. You are the closest person to a monk, in terms of faith, i know spider. i like the idea of you piously gubbling red wine for some odd reason. i know that makes no sense, but it doesnt have to. im in a really good mood, despite staying up later than i should have and drinking a little bit more than i should have. I just couldnt turn off. We have so much to think about, in terms of marketing. Press releases to fax, postcards to mail, catalogs to finalize. And to top it off, i have a reshoot tonight, (the intimate stuff YAYYYY) and the mens stuff to shoot tomorrow, then rush to graphic artist. We kept talking about this that and the other, then we promised to stop and unwind, and then we'd be talking about it again and so forth.

I love kissing and making up! You know, Patrick, I didn't know that about monks being buried near the altar.....but about a month ago I had a nightmare about going with my roommate and mother to the ruins of a cathedral where they were unearthing the skeletons of buried monks under the floor of the church, and the monks had been evil and I could feel the evil in the air and it was reaaly scary. Interesting coincidence.

what was more disturbing to me is that fact that they buried them under the floor. what up with that? why couldn't they bury them in the yard? It woudl creep me to constantly know I was walking on the dead

Lots of churches, Catholic and Protestant, buried people under the floor inside. It could have been for "spiritual" reasons like you mentioned (though that's crazy) or maybe to save space outside? ??? If you want to see something cool, go to the Cappucin monastery in Rome. The crypt is covered in decorations made from the bones of the monks. I have to dig up a link for that - you've got to see it. Chandeliers made from pelvic bones.... Hold on.

You answered that question already, Patrick. They buried them in the church as a status symbol. Burials inside actively used buildings are known throughout history. Sometimes, the burial was placed there as part of the initial construction to insure good luck or as a sacrifice, or even to insure a good spirit to watch over the place. This occurred quite often in pre-christian britain, and is supposed to have occurred at St. Colum Cille's monastary on the Isle of Skye (? unsure of location), and actually involved the sacrifice of a monk by installing him as part of the foundation to please the old spirits. Colum Cille wasn't happy about it, but went along with it to stop some supernatural occurences, as the story goes...

CHECK IT

damn. and i thought nico's Catacomb pics from France were creepy.

crap i was looking for that place last summer and no one could tell me where it was -i am buried under a floor-

The Cappucin Crypt, Santa Maria della Concezione just by the bottom of via Veneto by Piazza Barberini. Open Friday - Wednesday 9am-noon and 3-6pm. Donation of L1,000 requested.

You couldn't pay me enough to set foot in there. I did read something recently about the catacombs in france are now open to the public.

I've been there twice. It doesn't feel creepy.

piazza barberini is the best and not just because of all the bees

they've been open for sometime. nico visited them back in 93.

my favorite ossuary is in sedlec (kutna hora), czech republic: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/silver_p/kutna-1.html they had so many plague victims, they didn't know what else to do. in ukraine I went to an old orthodox monastery with a grave at the front door. I sort of tried to hop over it, and a guide told me the story. apparently a corrupt judge on his death bed repented for a lifetime of sins and said he wanted people to walk over him every day for eternity.

Heather, you mean the bees carved on the (what are they called?) big marble decorations around the square? Did you go in the big castle-like building that's a museum....there are paintings and narrow hallways....do you know what I'm talking about? I can't remember what it's called.

the paris catacombs have been open for a very long time. recently they were temporarily closed for some structural work, but they opened again, with extended hours, this summer. I missed the ossuary in rome, but the paris catacombs and the czech ossuary, and crypts and glass-cased relics and things have never bothered me.

palazzo barberini? moderno, bernini and boromini it's got the coolest entry progression for the carriage entry if i remember correctly and an amazing spiral staircase the bees stand for barberini

i've got a really big ass book from an architecture history class i took, and stopped going to for no reason other than photography consumed me. its from the Renaissance forward. the names of Bernini and Boromini ring bells. I remember something about bees and Barberini

The bee was the symbol of the Barberini family More bee pictures

It just doesn't seem right to me for what remains of your time on earth hanging out in public for the world to see.

ok, after the skull pictures, I need the elavil again

I find it funny that you can have a room decorated to the hilt with human bones, call it a chapel, and people think it's wonderful. If you put a sign in front that said "Church of Satan" then people would call it an abomination and burn it to the ground.

It's all about the attitude.

I would think it was even cooler if it said "church of satan." and these are all in europe. americans wouldn't be as ok with it, I bet. in puebla, mexico, there's a formerly secret convent whose founder made arrangements to have her heart pulled out and placed in a glass case for display. it's just a little black shriveled thing now, but still cool. lots of catholic cathedrals are filled with morbid, mystical, and beautiful things.

"It's all about the attitude." Yeah, kinda like the difference between a jihad and serial kiler? :-)

I mean cereal killer...

Uhhh... I mean, a cerebral Phyllis Diller...

Sir Henry Miller.

Antigone, your smilies frighten me. 30-year-old, 6'4" men should not make smilies with such gusto.

Blah! I am the evil party hat in the night!!! Blah! -miguel

Rhiannon, you are a smilie chauvinist. I will spread emoticons as liberally and effusively as I wish. :D

gusto gusto gusto echolalia my [new?] disorder

Do as you wish, then, sir. :Þ

Hmmm,Spider and Patrick,mere coincidence,I think not. This bone shit is weird.These two might be up to something.I think we should all be on our guard.

wow. it’s surprising to see what topics gets everyone talking. Clearing something’s up right away: i do not have a shitty life. Sure don’t. I love my life. It’s damn near perfect for me. I’m having fun. Until recently i was happier than a pig in shit. That’s why i feel something is going terribly wrong inside. i can’t stress this enough- pills are the last thing i would EVER do for a problem. Taking advil upsets me. After having back surgery years ago i was put on a patient released free-for-all morphine pump machine for 4 days. I used it twice. The nurse said it was the least she’s ever seen. And i was in pain, sweet fuckloads of pain, but i would take the pain over being fooled by drugs. I’m like that. it’s true that if your car needed a new muffler, you wouldn’t take it to your window washer friends. But you probably would go to them to ask about what they know of decent mechanics and muffler prices. To get a good start from people you know and trust before doing anything major. some good points here. Some so good that i wrote them down. i appreciate any and all insights into this. I’m blown away. last night i told the boy about my concerns. At the casual mention of meds, he freaked fucking out. Many of his friends have been put on prozac and paxil and he swears that their souls have died. He offered (like many of you have) that i’m just extremely sensitive and always forget to do good things for myself and treat myself to things while i’m out saving the world. He knows me very well. But i’m still very concerned. And trying pretty hard to be okay. I think i will be. I just need a little push. what’s my decision? i’m waiting for a call back from the shrink child. i’m eating more i’m drawing again, the big fucking pastels are out. and later in the week i get to meet the Llama. .....well, not *THEE* Llama, but very close. i’m lucky

i have no idea what you are talking about czarina. Hey Spider....can you tell me the names of clothign boutiques in Philly or DC that you would shop. Not rag shops or vintage places, but nice boutiques that carry all kinds of designers? just names, i can get their addies.

I have to say I was pretty disappointed with the georgetown boutiques when I was there in april. it seemed like every store there had a seattle counterpart. I think I ended up going in the betsey johnson store and that was it. adams-morgan had one or two places that sold cute little clothes, but I don't remember the names. I don't remember seeing any clothes boutiques I felt I needed to visit in the dupont circle area. before I visited there, I never really understood why a rich chick who wanted to snag the president would wear a gap dress around the white house. there was nowhere else to shop!

DCCD in Adams Morgan, DC. The Mustard Seed in Bethesda, MD. Ummm...there's always Anthropologie, but it's a chain and I don't know how you would go about getting them to carry your wife's line. Sorry I dropped the ball on this, Patrick. Like Cyst said, there aren't many neat stores around here.

DCCD is a record store, but they sell nice new clothing downstairs.

oh, it was called daisy. hey, check this out (I so get a sweater when you guys launch the line): http://www.bizforward.com/archives/2001-03/launchpad/ All About Jane, just up 18th Street from Kaur, has similar price points, with most pieces selling in the $50 to $250 range. ... "I live in the neighborhood, and I got tired of all my friends complaining how they had to go out to Pentagon City to shop." Daisy owners Andrea Paro and Fabiana Mesquita met while working at Nordstrom's eight years ago... Mesquita, who greets every potential customer with a welcoming "hey, girlie," says, "[Adams Morgan] is in its original form. It's so cute. It's not corporate." also: Savvyelle, Kaur

yes you do......hey if you wanna sneak a peak and have adobe acrobat, i can send you a big ass file. thats right in our price point range. we are starting low this season, we can always raise. thanks spider, we go about getting shit into chains the same way we would a boutique. we call them, send them a catalog and sell.

do you want boston names? detroit?

The Mustard Seed is the name of an asian restaurant here. They also own some fast-food places in Billings and Missoula called Noodles Express. I flipped noodles for them the summer after graduation.

In Exton, PA it's the name of a religious bookstore. Patrick, work on Anthropologie. I like their clothes and I would imagine your wife's sweaters would fit there nicely. Send me the bigass PDF file.

Fuck for some reason, DC Yahoo Yellow Pages is totally dropping the ball. Spider, you can pick up that dropped ball if you can bust out your phone book and get me the following addresses/zip and phone numbers: Mustard Seed All About Jane Besty Savvyelle Kaur yes heather that would be totally cool. I gotta get rid of 1000 postcards.

I'd like a peek too.

The Mustard Seed All About Jane Daisy Hell, here's a whole load of them, with descriptions of their stuff

If you want amazing spiral staircases, there's one in Chateau Chambord in the Loire Valley which is maybe just-could-be supposedly designed by Leonardo Da Vinci. It's a double helix so you can go down and someone can go up without seeing each other. http://www.lvo.com/GB/MAG/CHATEAUX/CHAM/CHAM1.HTML I have a girlfriend who comes from a titled English family and when we went to Westminister Abbey, we tracked down one of her relatives. He was buried with another man, with two other men on top of him. We told people at pubs that she came from a a long line of assmunchers. I really love romantic burial stories about people like Thomas Hardy who had his heart buried on the English moors and his ashes in Westminster. I would like to have my body parts distributed to all the places I love, after I die. Maybe I will leave you my ugly toes.

i've been to the Catacombs in Paris and have some amazing shots from it. The best one goes skull/skull/my head/skull/skull. At first i was so enthusiastic about the place i think i freaked out the people in front of us. What can i say, i thought it was too interesting. Then after a while the immensity of the place... i mean, those tunnels go on for miles under the city, it’s like they never end ...finally got to me and by the end my travel companion and i were running like fuck. It smells down there. I would go back though.

Cremate me when I'm done, please. Don't want nobody using my skull as a soccer ball or being used in a bad junior high production of Hamlet in 200 years. Although I am a man of infinite jest and excellent fancy, but that's beside the point.

thansk again ladies.....spider that site is chockfull of leads. in fact it reminds me when nico and were last in DC, many years ago. I recall wandering Georgetown and shopping. There is tons of shopping in DC.

BUT WISPER: PLEASE do go to the doctor & get some blood work done. Assuming you have health insurance/ruling out physical causes is the first step. Even before you decide about treatment.

thank you heather; and nate, the "creepy bastard" line got a chuckle around the office today.

It's "creeps bastard"! "Creeps bastard"!