U.N. Says 7.5 Million Afghans Will Need Winter Aid "If urgent help is not made available, ``their grip on survival is definitely slipping,'' [Stephanie Bunker, spokeswoman for the U.N. Office of Humanitarian Assistance for Afghanistan ] said." how is this different from genocide? we, democracy. we, guilty.

yup, and the survivors will hate us even more. help those people.

are WE starving them? Isnt it the Taliban that raided the UN food camps and took their remaining supplies in the last few days? Explain to me how we systematically and planned to exterminate them. Further, is this even possible when we are donating food and money? I don't deny the severity of what will happen, but saying the US is committing genocide is a bit inflammatory man or even premature

im pretty sure you can expect them to get help. its to our advantage to help them. sad to say, but its good strategy to do what the taliban has failed to do.

sanctions, man. when we leaned on pakistan we had them cut off the food they're sending over to afghanistan. we've stopped all aid at the borders. we did the same thing in iraq. yes, the taliban raided the un camps and took the "remaining" food. as in, the last of it. .. the more dave. and i agree, the more i think this is preperations for the apocalypse.

an apocalypse would be nice right now. at least my own personal one. afghans place hope in un.

wasnt it the UN and Red Cross that ordered its workers out? would the taliban allow aid? would they not raid it just like they did recently? im just not sure how comfortable i am saying we are committing "genocide". surely our gov't and military KNOW that a starving man will take arms against us quicker than a fed man. they MUST know this. further....we arent a democracy...are we? *smirk*

1. It is the apocalypse. 2. No mater what we do they will still hate us. We have to much wealth in their eyes. And, no matter how much we share or give to the "impoverished" people of the world they will still hate us. And, they will still blame the rich Americans for causing all their problems.

it has nothing to do with wealth. it has to do with our treatment of muslim peoples. the genocide in iraq. the israel equation. and now this. we oppress islam. this is why we are a target.

did we opress islam in the Balkans, Yugoslavia? Im not necessarily disagreeing with you...Im just curious how that fits into your scheme of genocide

the only afghanis in the balkans were mercenaries. i don't see how that would fit into the genocide of the afghani people.

you make a sweeping statement that we opress islam. how did our actions in the Balkans and Kosovo opress islam? on a related topic of airline safety....this article was interesting. The pilot is an encouraging one http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20010919-6357240.htm

Right (sarcasm here) we suppress everyone. At least that is what they would like you to believe. Some US policies have been harsh for some of the worlds populations. But, it is not our fault they live in a Dictatorship or other supressive form of government. The interest of the government should be for the (moral?) benefit of their citizens. Not, everyone else. That is where diplomacy comes in. One nation dealing with an other for the betterment of both. Unfortunately it has almost never worked that way in the past and probably won't in the future. Human beings can be such idiots to deal with. Haven't you seen that 1970's Canadian commentary yet. The one about us under appreciated Americans. I thought it pretty much hit the nail on the head.

except, watcher, we have this oddly zionist bent against arabs. it is not their fault they live in a dictatorship, yet we mercilessly kill them... we, the people, do not deserve the country we live in. if the government's role is to protect the freedom of its people, ours fails. if the government's role is to encourage freedom of all peoples, it fails. we are an empire. we seek to include the world within our borders. the goal of empire is power for the few. we do well in meeting that goal. the american people, by in large, are spoiled children. did i hear that 30% of new yorkers support concentration camps for people who sympathize with the afghanis? the cause of bin laden? did ashcroft ask for increased ability to wiretap and the right to hold aliens indefiniately without charge (without council, without trial...) ? where is the morality? where is freedom? lady liberty weeps, so we whip our our collective cocks and slap her face with them. oh, yeah. we're a good solid people. let's kill those dirty a-rabs. fucking beasts. you can't talk to those crazy a-rabs. they're insane. let's round them up into cages and nuke their homelands.

im encouraged by the sentiment being seen on some campuses. watching a local talk show on PBS, they talked to some professors about the action they are seeing on campuses and there is an anti-war movement being spawned. what was notable though, is that you canexpect the gov't to severly limit press in coverage of what goes on, more so than the gulf war. the anti-war movement, while in the 60s was influenced by the media...which contradicted what our leaders were saying..this time, will influence the media. the simple fact that our universities are more diverse that they were in the 60s is also an asset. of course we've seen the power of the internet with anti globalization. as time goes on, and nothing happens militarily, the more opposition the Bush administration will face. Im still wondering, why every god damn journalist (that i hear or read) isnt asking this one simple question..."Where does the UN fit into this picture and why aren't we acting through them?" I know we are holding debt over their head, and Helms was known for making an ass out of himself in front of the UN....but the Taliban seems to respect the UN."

We just paid a large portion of our back dues to the UN. I don't think we're completely responsible for genocide, just partly. Of course, if you're partly responsible for murder, you still killed somebody. And, if you want a good example of cock slapping lady liberty, read this recent David Horowitz article.

"except, watcher, we have this oddly zionist bent against arabs." It's them sneaky Jews again, ain't it Nate? Whatchya gonna do? Can't live with 'em, can't gass 'em!

you mean i gotta pay those fucks at salon to read that article?

Was that restricted to premium? Bummer. Sorry about that. Basically, David Horowitz tried to use the current hysteria to accuse Noam Chomsky of thought-crime and brand him as a terrorist. It's a new level for Horowitz. I think he now qualifies as a demagogue.

threads like these always sound like self-flagellation with our own american cocks. y'all go to afghanistan online and buy the "peace in afghanistan" shirt. then you can take it to the streets. assuming the shirts get to you before we destroy the country.

And on a completely unrelated note: "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." Frank Zappa I guess it just goes to show that you don't have to be a rocket scientist,to understand human nature.

you go, antigone. the best way to prove that zionism isn't evil is to brand everyone who says to anti-semite or (even indirectly) compare them to nazis. your stance as such is totally unsubstantiated and quite offensive.

d00d, Nate, you can't take a joke anymore. You can't ignore the effect the Nazis have had on the Jews. Much like you can't ignore the effect UN sanctions have had on Iraq, or Israeli oppression has had on Palestenians. You become anti-semitic when you blame the Jews to the exclusion of all others, or single them out as the prime cause for whatever ills the middle east. It's more complex than that, but you seem blinded to that complexity by your prejudices. Be more objective.

Oh, I just remembered another benefit to objectivity: you get to piss everybody off, and not just a select few. :)

i don't blame the jews, though. i blame zionism. all jews aren't zionists, and (arguably?) vice versa. it's ok to be anti-arab in this country. even before 9/11 it was ok. our policies are definitely pro-israel. we've rained terror on iraq for the past 10 years over a single un resolution (occupation of kuwait.) israel has occupied arab land since 1947 and there are over 50 un resolutions that condem this.. yet we continue to support them with money and arms. maybe it is just a strange coincidence.

id actually like a one of those classic tees that say "Ayetollah Assahola"

I definately agree that our government is too unquestioningly pro Israel, and that this stance is detrimental to our foreign policy and destructive to the world in general. We haven't exactly "rained terror" over Iraq, but we have contributed to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis. We share the blame for that with the Iraqi government, however. Our government doesn't give a shit about Iraqi civilians, but then again neither does the Iraqi government. Iraq has essentially put its citizens on a hunger strike, and the American government does not have the political will to force feed them. But to characterize the situation simply as America "raining terror" on Iraq is to ignore sides of the issue you find inconvenient to your views.

I wouldn't mind reading that article, Antigone, but I don't feel like subscribing. Can you cut and paste and e-mail it and I'll throw it up online somewhere ?

iraqi was one of the most "forward" societies in the middle east previous to our campaigns. there are women in high military positions, which shows a level of women's rights in the country largely unequalled in the middle east. where most oil countries (like saudi arabia) have their wealth concentrated in the accounts of the kings and princes, saddam actually used his country's wealth for the good of the people: running water, electricity, sewer, education (higher rate of literacy than the US, though that doesn't say much.) saddam went into kuwait on a US nod of approval because kuwait was slant drilling into iraqi oilfields. we removed saddam from kuwait. we then went into the whole "combing iraq for weapons of mass destruction" escapade. basically looking for anything left over from what we gave him to fight iran. saddam got frustrated by the never ending inspections. un inspectors said it was clean, but we said it wasn't clean enough. we got new inspectors, saddam wanted non-US inspectors, we said hell no. we continue the sanctions. ... 1. the sanctions harm the civilians while increasing saddam's power. we know this. we are responsible for the death caused by our sanctions. 5000 children per month. 2. we claim the no-fly zones exist to protect the kurds to the north and kuwait to the south. we launch our planes in the north from bases in turkey. turkey, the #1 consumer of US arms, treats the kurds like israel treats the palestinians. we gave iraq the thumbs up to go into kuwait the first time. it's all crap. i hate you. pussy.

Antigone, Here he is free of charge: http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/horowitz/index.htm If that doesn't take you to Horowitz try the Drudge Report. They have a link to him. http://www.drudgereport.com

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=95825 if i have to pull over NOBODY'S going to heaven.

Thanks, Watcher. I cut and paste from Salon and circumvent their subscription system, Dougie. I support them because they're just about the only decent independent internet news outlet left. Nate, that's interesting info on the structure of Iraqi society before America got involved. What are your sources? And I don't disagree with your two points about the duplicity and ruthlessness of the American government. Why do you continue to argue against a point I'm not making?

i think that Horowitz cat qualifies as a crackpot. I've never seen someone so selectively ignore plain and clear sentences, phrases and words in the text he was citing as example. I mean he totally missed the fucking point Chomsky was making. That guy gets published? Fuck.

Oops...I mean "I won't cut and paste..." doh!

Yeah, patrick, no shit. That's one thing I don't like about Salon. It's not that they publish a stridently conservative columnist, but that they publish one who so badly states his case. They should publish someone who argues conservative views more effectively.

Yeah, frontpagemag.com really has it out for Chomsky: http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/guestcolumnists/cohn09-11-01.htm

http://www.fieler.com/terror/

ARGH!!!! By Nate on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 03:15 pm: except, watcher, we have this oddly zionist bent against arabs. Nate nate nate, I REALLLY dislike being called zionist. You don't know me, who is this we? it is not their fault they live in a dictatorship, yet we mercilessly kill them... Huh? What? Who are we killing? we, the people, do not deserve the country we live in. Fuck you. I was wounded twice on the Czech border during the cold war. I risked my life for nearly 3 years to help defectors escape from the stalinist czech dictatorship. Where were you? Amusingly, some were bank robbers, fleeing actual justice under the guise of legitimate defection. What regiment did you serve? Or maybe you were in the Peace Corps or Red Cross, if so BRAVO! There is no finer calling than to serve mankind. Its typical to slight the accomplishments of this american empire, and i agree completely its an empire. You have the luxury of your discontent due to the sacrifices of others. I acknowledge I got lucky as my theatre of operations turned out to be just in the end. I would have fought where they told me. Still, the guys in Bosnia/kosovo/Macedonia risk their personal safety to do good. For people and places they didnt understand. Soldiers all intend to do good. Leaders put them into evil situations sometimes. As an empire, we will be challenged. AS an empire, we are unusual in the forgiveness of our enemies, more than any other in history. This is our lot. The quality of life our allies enjoy is due to the stability our society brings to the planet, good/bad/indifferent. If germany won ww2, I doubt you'd get to wringe your hands and moan at the sad state of the world. You would not doubt know oppression upclose and personal. I think we do bad things, and often stupidly. I think life presents a general contract, read the rules, they are skewed for the rich, yep. You can whine about monopoly rules being unfair too, but in life you must play the game anyway. "Present standard of living allocated to allied societies of our chosing" "Societies shall not be awarded 'life points' when in conflict with the empire." I do so wish we were as civilized as the rhetoric we can come up with. Modern man believes we are much more civilized than we are. I laugh at the very idea. In the limited period of man, it is comic to think suddenly because we have the internet, we are now a community and will get along when we have so recently raped entire peoples. Were are the Langobards or Ghepids or the Avars? The Romans absorbed or destroyed them. We do the same. if the government's role is to protect the freedom of its people, ours fails. if the government's role is to encourage freedom of all peoples, it fails. Uh, which government has EVER done this????? Government stabilies society to further business in our case, always has. Fortunately we have enough freedom to chafe at the restraints. You get one good from column A, and one bad from column B. Unfair? yes. we are an empire. we seek to include the world within our borders. the goal of empire is power for the few. we do well in meeting that goal. So did rome, england, etc etc etc. Is this news worthy? There will be an empire of some kind for the forseeable future. Also, let me point out, even though Rome fell, it survived numerous threats, and played a crutial role in the establishment of the modern world. We too will go away, and leave a big mark, looking something like a bruise no doubt. I so loathe the selfconsciousness of drivel like yours. I do NOT feel guilty about being decendant of slavers. I do not discriminate. I dont overcompensate either. I once read a thesis on the state of happiness in the world. Most of the worlds people had never considered the idea at all. Happiness was an american idealic goal. Survival is the lot of the rest. I get so irritated when folks bemoan the state of affairs without a legitimate personal effort to change it. I apologize in advance if you have. I did. It was almost a "proactive peace corps" if you will. First Armored Division sez thou shalt not fight in Bosnia, and it is so. Most of that time was cold, rainy misery. it had to be done. Praise Allah that there were men ready to do it, so we wouldnt have to ourselves. Everybody hates a cop telling them what to do, but calls them when they are threatened. the american people, by in large, are spoiled children. Well said. I think we agree totally here. I think manditory civil service exposing classes to each other might help. It might help if americans we required to serve society, anyone other than serving themselves 24/7. did i hear that 30% of new yorkers support concentration camps for people who sympathize with the afghanis? the cause of bin laden? One think people do when hurt is get mad, and act stupidly. I love living in LA because of the diversity. I feel pain when Sikhs are abused as they have definately served the empire historically, and now morons think they are to blaim. I hate anyone who hates on race or religious grounds. did ashcroft ask for increased ability to wiretap and the right to hold aliens indefiniately without charge (without council, without trial...) ? where is the morality? where is freedom? Did the police come for you for posting this? Look around and find your freedoms before they disappear. lady liberty weeps, so we whip our our collective cocks and slap her face with them. oh, yeah. we're a good solid people. let's kill those dirty a-rabs. fucking beasts. you can't talk to those crazy a-rabs. they're insane. let's round them up into cages and nuke their homelands. These kind of stupidity is pointless. I have lived abroad and seen that every country has their rednecks. In germany they wear lederhosen. Clearly we dont need this type of reaction and we are not seeing it, thank powell. I am NOT proIsrael. I tend to always support those displaced by invasion. We should not invade or torment the afghans. We cannot let wacky leaders attack civilians in any country, as the stabilizing empire. We are not a perfect society, and there may even be better ones around today. We are now behind the wheel, and better us than some of the others seeking to drive the planet. Some poor soldier is gonna die, and you'll still get to bitch about the injustice in the world. Thank him.

se, to clarify, in the USA the government is the people. this is a democracy, this is the way it is. when i say we, i mean the government. we the people, we the government. i am critical of our foreign policy, not those who serve in our armed forces. if we don't wise up, a lot of people will die. civilians and military alike, in the middle east and in our backyards.

i just got a chain/email/petition against the treatment of women under the Taliban....um is it just me...or something terribly wrong with the notion that a chain email via internet is going to do ANYTHING to sway a culture barely in the 20th century.

treatment of women in saudi arabia is no better. "What's your impression? Do you think that many people in the Middle East and other non-western nations believe the U.S. itself bears some responsibility for the hatred that led to the terrorist attacks, or don't you think many of them feel this way?" Yes, they believe U.S. bears some responsibility 59% No, they don't feel this way 27% Don't know 14% (Pew Research Center survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Sept. 21-25, 2001. N=1,488 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.) not that polls are signifigant.

i realize this....but the fact they are using an email petition, to petition a state that may not even have internet, or if it does, certainly doesnt give its people access seems retarded. do gooder liberals.

Given the fact that more civilians will die esp. if nothing is done, where would you be against nazi germany? When is the loss of human life worth the prevention of the loss of human life?

touche

more civilians will die if nothing is done? you and trace must be smoking from the same sack.

All I can say, and I have some reason for saying this, is brace yourself.

Nate, How can you say that? I was being to take the "hands off" approach that America should take towards all nations. But then I realized I was buying into your bull shit about this being our fault. Sure, we stuck our nose in iraq-kuwait, but say what you want about it being about oil or whatever, but it was also about a larger country invading a smaller country. And did we learn nothing about the Nazi's? How long did America sit back and watch what was going on in Europe and do nothing? Damn the American Opinion and the poles, we should have done something a lot soonner. We could have saved millions of lives. But no, Truman listened to the Poles, which said "Hey, they don't bother me, we won't bother them". Once again, I ask you. What would you have us do? ARREST Bin Laden, have him tried in American courts and sent to prison for life? Oh sure, that would work out just fine. No terrorist would ever dare bother us again. They would never do anything with anykind of demand that we release Bin Laden. Kill him? That would make him a Martyr. Let him go? Might as well kill the sob and as many more of the terrorists as we can, and try to stop this shit. It has been going on since the 70's and for the most part we have just watched. Bin Laden is only one of thousands. We have watched them grow like cockroaches since '90 at the latest, and did nothing. America has finally, dreadfully, woken up to the fact that we are not immune to this shit. And now it must end. Genocide? Not to Muslims, or Afgani's or Mid-Easterns, but genocide to the terrorists. The only thing that will stop them is death.

The death of almost 7,000 must not go unpunished.

you need a history lesson son. Roosevelt sent us to WW2, not Truman. Truman took over when Roosevelt croaked due to his disease, Truman dropped the bmbs

well, trace, it's tit-for-tat because we've already killed over 1.5 million in iraq. the taliban had a radio address and told afghanistan not to worry, americans are too pussy to attack. wtf do you think they want from us? they want us to continue the indescriminate killing. our actions in that region is why there are people who are willing to die to fight us. so fuck, let's do the moronic thing and bomb afghanistan. this is exactly what bin laden wants from us. let's do it. our actions will create more terrorists and more terrorism. our actions will set off bin laden's next wave. do you actually think he waited all this time to do just one act against us? do you wonder what's next? because it's coming. and if we take military action, it's coming soon and it's coming hard. this is not the gulf war. this is not the balkan wars. this is not viet nam. who we're fighting now is ready to fight us on our terrority as well. our civilians will die. many many of them. our economy will collapse. and our great nation will flouder because we have become spoiled children who do not understand the impact of our injustice.

SE: during the cold war, when you were helping czechs defect, nate was in junior high school, I'm pretty sure. you asked.

I may be restating points posted earlier, so bear with and don't leap all other me: Interesting that most terrorists come from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and UAE. No Afghans. Afghans are pissed at us from when they kicked out the Russians, and suddenly all the American Aid dried up. I was talking to a Marine Sgt. on Parris island a couple weeks ago and he said that the likliehood of this being a huge ground war is low. He basically described what's going on now, with elite units sent in to scout things out. this will be followed up by Special Forces "lasing" (laser targeting) sites for elimination by smart bombs. More general bombing may occur if it's deemed necessary to take out the entire Taliban. So, we've had hot wars (WWII, Vietnam) and Cold wars. This looks like the first Luke-warm war, hmm? Scratch that, the second. We've been carrying out a luke-warm war on Iraq for the last ten years.

the percetnage of youth in the middle eastern regions is vast. its fertile for a new generation of teenage suicide bombers. kids are vulnerable and malleable. Do we go after the brainwashers, the adults? I recall this from a few years ago. Special Forces

I am sorry, I have been very tired lately. My life is directly impacted every minute of the day due to the events of 911 and the others you have not heard about that followed afterwords. I stand humbly corrected, it was Roosevelt and not Truman. I despise both, so I get them confused. Then sit down and do nothing. Watch them do what ever they want to do and do nothing. What do you want to do? Just close off the borders, have a military run airport system, and have security check points coming into each city? Marshal Law? There is your peaceful solution. Forget the 7,000+ that has already died. It was 3 weeks ago anyway, so why bother with that? You think just punishing Bin ladden is the only thing we need to do? Or what? Should we just forget it and go back to our daily lives of greed and self satisfaction?

Roosevelt did more good for this country in terms of public works and the American economy than you fucking appear to know or choose to ignore. How you can despise a president such as him is inconceivable. What exactly is about him that you despise? Roosevelt was considered, by left and right, one of the greatest presidents of this century. I don't think anyone has said we should do nothing trace. Im not sure you are really reading what people are saying. We (at least me anyway) are just saying all out war is not the answer. The "feed them" approach is indeed noble, but I think a bit naive and unrealistic. How many US agents are in the UN convoy arriving in Iran? How many? Im willing to be more than half of those aid workers are military agents. But launching b-52 raids, b-1 raids, over afghanistan, as we have been saying, will only spawn more attacks, more treacherous. Perhaps we should modify our foreign policies? All this fucking talk about sanctioning and supporting terrorists.....shit, we're one to talk. When will you wake up to the truth Trace? When will you see things for what they are. Blind patriotism is dangerous.

trace, i believe in peace, not pacifism. tell me what could be accomplished by military action in afghanistan. what do you think the objectives of the terrorists were? do you honestly believe that these men were insane zealots who hate us for our freedom? don't you think it is likely that there is a "big picture" plan? maybe 9/11 was the only the first move? us foriegn policy is fairly uniform. bomb an embassy, we missle your country. don't you think the terrorists are expecting our military response? you want to salute them by playing into their hands? what do the terrorists want us to do? they want us to kill innocents. they want us to attack afghanistan. they want us to show the world who the real terrorists are. so what are you advocating, trace? are you a terrorist? because you certainly seem to want to support their cause.

Big Brother is about to get alot bigger, I've always worried about this and now that it's come down to it I have really been going back and forth with this in my head,and have gotten nowhere.All I know is I really have a hate for bin-laden that I have never felt before,that fucker has changed my life forever,he's taken away my freedom,that word means something to me.

oh J don't be so lathered up by the media about bin laden. he's just one figure. he allows us to personify many many others we can't and don't see. he's done nothing to you other americans havent done. don't be so swept hon. in reality, we really don't know anything about bin laden other than what THEY, tell us. So if you are fearful of big brother, you should be suspect of what Big Brother tells you. Im not saying he's an angle....I just think he's a distraction, something to sink our teeth in. We all need to see our villian.

No matter what we do terrorism against us (the US) will continue. If we give the terrorists what they want, they will be encouraged. If we strike back at them they will become enraged. All terrorists have a different mindset from the rest of the world. They are fanatics who believe what ever they do is just. As long as it is for the cause. We believe in the legal system. In placing criminals in prison for their crimes. Unfortunately, this will not work in dealing with terrorists. If you put one in jail. You give his fellow travelers an excuse for further terrorist activities. Killing them makes them martyrs for the cause. But, at least as matyrs they can't be sprung from jail to kill other victims. One last thing, the US government is a democratically elected republic. Not a democracy. The citizens do not get to vote on every law of the land. That is the job of our representatives.

Thank you. You put what I have been trying to say in much better words then I can do myself. I don't think I have to defend myself or explain that I am not a terrorist, Nate. Please provide back up for the US supporting Terrorism (Not Afganistan Freedom Fighters, but actual terrorist activities of blowing up federal buildings, civilian transport vehicles, churches, sport stadiums, embassies in other countries other then their own) As far as Roosevelt is concerned, he is considered the worste theif of American Citizen's money in American History. FDR's New Deal, social security, creating the federal reserve, etc etc etc)

um....you clearly don't know what you are talking about when it comes to FDR. The new deal created jobs during the depression and created many a public works...damns, bridges aqueducts and so on. It was one of the greatest infrastructure initives any president has ever done since Reconstruction, possible even greater. The Federal Reserve is nothing but a benefit to you. Its there for your protection. I have no fucking clue how its a "theft" of your money. Basically it protects your money should a bank fail you nitwit. Social Security, when it works, WORKS! When politicans start messing with it is when it falters. Should you go insane with schizophrenia, your wife leaves you, your child abandons you (hypothetically) that social security check is ther for you, so you can eat, or get help. Without social security, my dad, who was indeed a paranoid schizophrenic, wouldnt have had any money to get therapy. Even though it wasnt much, it kept him out of trouble for a portion of the year. You really should take another look at these items you mentioned, it sounds as if you dont really understand what they were or how they worked.

So what about the WPA or the CCC? I guess he was stealing money there too. Face it, buddy, FDR blows Reagan and both Bushes straight out of the water as a President.

I'll avoid the discussion of FDR. I work for one of the agencies he created. Did you hear the story about Ellenor and the Appilatian comunity.

point is watcher, you worked. you cant judge FDR for shape the agencies are in today. they have been through 10+ presidents and countless congressional movements.

you are a terrorist, trace. anyone who would act in such a way as to increase terror on earth is a terrorist. a military strike against afghanistan will kill people who do not have the ability to vote for their government. people who are oppressed by the taliban. a military strike against afghanistan will increase the terrorist population. people will join the ranks of the terrorists because we commit injustices. a military strike against afghanistan will trigger a response from the same group that was responsible for 9/11. americans will die. a military strike against afghanistan will NOT do anything to stop bin laden. it will NOT do anything to stop terrorism. it will make things worse. supporting a military strike against afghanistan is supporting terrorism. .. earlier this year colin powell gave the taliban $43 million as a reward for declaring heroin a sin. we trained bin laden. we trained fanatics to fight the soviets.

and now they are going back to producing poppy, which is much more lucrative than wheat. them bitches took our money and are now doing a watusi on us.

i don't think they ever stopped, did they? they can grow it, they just have to ship it out of the country in raw form.

well whether they did completely is unforseen. But I saw on some news show, footage of them destroying poppy plants...citing Americas initive to get them to grow wheat instead. And of course, now their reversal on the matter

Nate, What would you do? If no military operation to get bin laden, what? You can't do nothing. How, do you answer 7000 families from 80 countries who have lost loved ones in these attacks? Instead of just critisizing a military solution provide us with an alternative. And, don't say diplomicy. It has only encouarged the terrorists in the past. Also, how many will have to die before you would consider the military option. And, if not a number who would have to die?

though you didnt ask me. id say do this. send UN peace keepers to Israel and Palestine. UN monitors, and crack down on that situation, reprimand both sides for violations. Reach settlements and agreements and being hard assed as hell to get that situation to an end. Patience has run out for BOTH sides...especially Israel. Second, keep up the diplomatic, economic pressures to get those who committed the attrocities in NYC and DC to justice. In a world court. Im even for limited covert operations to get the fuckers... BUT to counteract the potential backlash, hold trials in a world court. It must be a world court! Afghanis in general don't hate americans man, they just want the same things we want. Most don't even care for their government, most just want to eat and get an education. But the minute we hit them and hit them hard, like Desert Storm, the minute they hate us. When has diplomacy encouraged them in the past?

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

Nate, when you say you're against a military strike, what precisely do you mean? I know you're opposed to a blanket bombing, but are you also against more targeted attacks? Trace: "Please provide back up for the US supporting Terrorism (Not Afganistan Freedom Fighters, but actual terrorist activities of blowing up federal buildings, civilian transport vehicles, churches, sport stadiums, embassies in other countries other then their own)" bin Laden's network includes Chechnyan freedom fighters, who have performed terrorist activities in Russia and other former Soviet states. These activities have included blowing civilian transport vehicles and otherwise targetting Russian civilians. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure more examples could be found with a little research.

i'm against military strikes in which innocents die. what is a targeted strike? assasination? i'm against assasination. i, personally, don't believe there is solid evidence against bin laden. certainly, nothing that would stand up in a court of law. i'm not comfortable with our government killing people without trial. (i'm not comfortable with our government killing people with trial, either, but for different reasons. at least when the court ok's the killing, there is review of the evidence. there are appeals. there is the opportunity for justice.) "How, do you answer 7000 families from 80 countries who have lost loved ones in these attacks?" how do you answer the families of the 1.5 million we've killed in iraq? from the slaughter of desperately retreating soldiers to the death of babies due to sanctions? maybe those 7000 who died 9/11 were the answer. what now? escalate ad infinitum? "Instead of just critisizing a military solution provide us with an alternative." this is a ridiculous arguement. let's drive the earth into the sun! that's an alternative. now give me an alternative to that that isn't a military solution. we, the USA, funded this terrorist organization. by bush's policy, we now need to attack ourselves. mcvay and nichols were part of a militia. militias are terrorist organizations too, i guess. we should send some cruise missles into known militia hangouts. maybe that would solve the problem. can you honestly not see how ridiculous (proposed) military action would be?

How about the CIA Death Squads in Central America? Dead nuns anyone? (Thanks Reagan!) Atomic weapons are terrorist weapons. Let's see, then there was that train we blew up in Bosnia, and the time we bombed Qaddafi's house and killed his daughter, and so on...

oo, and we blew up the chinese embassy! and we firebombed tokyo and dresden! and we napalmed children in viet nam!

So you have any idea how we can protect ourselves from terrorist?

My uncle, who flew a b-17 over Dresden, Ive soon found out (on my hunt for information as i posted here before) from his daughter that he said "those missions were just cruel and pointless, they were meant to demoralize the citizens" He wasnt proud he took part in those missions. we blasted Russia for using fuel bombs (bombs loaded with a highly flammable fuel that explodes prior to hitting the ground, basially they blast fire 10 feet over your head) in Chechnya.....yet we did it ourselves in the Persian Gulf. We torched em. How bout the depleated Uranium cluster bombs? We've tainted the soil and infected entire communities in Kosovo and the Persian Gulf with depleated Uranium bomblets. Protect ourselves? How bout we start practicing what we preach first.

And we used the Truman doctrine as an excuse to provide money and arms to Greece and Turkey in the 40's...There are plenty of examples of the united States supporting terrorism.

"I" haven't bombed or torched anyone and I want to know how the fuck "we" are suppose to protect ourselves?

The only way to avoid civilian casualties would be sniper/assination teams. But, that is repugnant to western thinking. We'd rather bomb Qaddfi's house and kill his daughter as "Colateral damage" then send in a snpier team to kill him. Makes a lot of sence to me. By the way, all killing is repugnant to me. It's just sometimes you have to do what is distasteful. Also, we are not killing babies in Iraq. That is strickly Sadam's fault. He could be selling oil for food and medical supplies. The UN sanctions allow for this. He stopped the oil not the US and not the UN. Remember he's the one who has used poison gas on his own people.

Well J its never too late to become an activist. Or become a citizen of say.....Australia or some other fairly neutral country. Our officials supposedly act on our behalf. Of course YOU haven't done anything personally and neither has 99% of America, just like 99% of Afghani, Saudi, Yemeni, Iraqi, Iranian, Pakistani or whomever else you can think of has committed a terrorist act against us.

The important thing is that if we want to have any effect at all, we can't fight the way the enemy wants us to. They want us to fight in a way that will have the entire Arab world, not just some fucks in Palestine and Iraq, cheering the death of Americans. How we fight, I leave that up to the experts. We do have some. I'm not sure if they have any input, but they are there. We've got all these elite troops, so let's use them. Ideally, the aftermath of an operation against terrorists would be dead terrorists and aid packages for the locals. That was our mistake in the first place in Afghanistan, we left 'em hanging after the Cold War. Look at Germany and Japan - we helped them rebuild after kicking their asses and now they're our best allies. If it worked with isolantist Japan, it should work anywhere.

Nate: "i'm against military strikes in which innocents die. what is a targeted strike? assasination? i'm against assasination." So you're against assasination and non-assasination style military strikes. Ummm...why not just say you're against military strikes and be done with it? "i, personally, don't believe there is solid evidence against bin laden." Yes, you can only believe at this point, since the evidence hasn't been released to the public. Nice rational basis for your argument, d00d. sem: Good point on the Germany/Japan reconstruction. It gives a good historical backing for providing aid, and is a good balancing argument to the "would you have ignored Hitler" arguments. Watcher: "The only way to avoid civilian casualties would be sniper/assination teams. But, that is repugnant to western thinking." Not really, there's just an executive order banning federally backed assasination, signed by President Ford. There was excellent reason for this order when it was signed, as the CIA was assasinating world leaders left and right. It's under review now, though. I hope it won't be completely repealed, just amended to allow for particular (well defined, non loopholeable) situations.

" i, personally, don't believe there is solid evidence against bin laden. certainly, nothing that would stand up in a court of law. i'm not comfortable with our government killing people without trial." Well, the evidence that the average citizen is not privy to was good enough to convince NATO to say that the U.S. has presented "compelling and conclusive" evidence that the terror attacks on the U.S. were the work of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network. Something has changed in the US. Something big. Let's start with the Homeland Security Buerau that started TODAY. Attorney General John Ashcroft has asked Congress for authority to investigate and detain individuals suspected of involvement in terrorist activities. The bill also seeks, among other things to: • Allow law enforcement authorities to obtain nationwide "pen register" and "trap and trace" orders that permit them to learn the incoming or outgoing phone numbers from a particular telephone. • Extend the amount of time a court order can be used to conduct physical searches from 45 to 90 days and electronic surveillance from 90 days to one year with as little as a federal officer signing a written request. • Place no limit on the length of time an alien suspected of terrorism can be detained without filing charges. • Extend the roaming wire tap authority already in existence to multiple forms of communications, including the Internet without probable cause. • Allow authorities to use intelligence information from foreign sources that would have been illegally obtained under U.S. constitutional provisions. One more thing. I have been called a lot of different things on this board. I have let most things roll of my back,without much thought. But being called a terrorist chilled me to the bone. It did not make my angry or hurt me. A man was convicted of murder for dragging a little boy to his death over the course of five miles while trying to elude capture for stealing the SUV. There was a debate over death penalty versus life in prison. The argument was that if we killed him, then we woudl be no better then he. Really? We are no better for killing this man who drug an innocent seven year old boy to his death? Let me see: Him-Killed a seven year old boy while stealing a car, dragging this innocent boy over five miles to his death. Us-Kill a man with a lethal injection for killing an innocent seven year old boy. I dont see how we would be the same. Them: Killed seven thousand innocent people. Us: kill the small group and the head of the group that killed seven thousand innocent people. I don't see how we would be the same. Thier victims did not do anything wrong. They did.

and things just keep getting worse and worse. We could end up fighting russia and china if this continues

isn't life tricky? i guess we're stuck with using what we have to do what we can. can't erase the past but wisdom tells us to be mindful of it. empires are built on the suffering and manipulation of poor people's lives, here and abroad. that's the problem that needs to be addressed. too bad we're not advanced enough to be truly socialist. it's a shitty time to be alive and powerless on this planet. whaddaya gonna do?

trace Iran is not a threat. They never have been and most likely won't be. They've been working with Russia ever since Putin took office. Their gov't is surprisingly moderate and reasonable from 10 years ago. They signed a military exhange agreement months ago with Russia. IF anything, we keep up our threats against Iraq, they very well could be an alley. Let me tell you what disturbs me about Ashcroft's initives, Trace: "45 to 90 days and electronic surveillance from 90 days to one year with as little as a federal officer signing a written request. " I don't like the idea that just ANY ole federal officer, be it a National Park Ranger or a Federal Prison officer could sign off on this. My example is extreme, but the proposal is just bullshit. Officers are not judges of the law, they are merely enforcers. A judge, needs to sign off, make judges available 24 hours if they arent already. "• Place no limit on the length of time an alien suspected of terrorism can be detained without filing charges. " Just to point out, we raise all kinds of shit, when people are detained in other parts of the world with or without rhyme or reason. Our christian soldiers detained in Afghanistan right now for example. Before the bombing, we raised all kinds of shit. They are still there. Id like them to define "suspected of terrorism" before i support this. "• Extend the roaming wire tap authority already in existence to multiple forms of communications, including the Internet without probable cause." Though probable cause is a near bullshit idea in its self....I don't like the idea of them doing away with it on paper. Ashcroft's initives aren't going to do anything to solve the problem. How about they repeal the executive order that discourages the CIA from paying and using informants with a violent past. Hard to get inside terrorist groups without using an snitch without a violent past. and one more fallacy on your part... Them: Killed seven thousand innocent people. Us: kill the small group and the head of the group that killed seven thousand innocent people. no US-Killing (as in CONTINUING) 100s of thousands in Iraq with inhumane sanctions, dictator or no dictator. Killed thousands of civilians in Vietnam. Killing hundreds if not thousands in Kosovo with depleated Uranium bomb clusters. Thats just the icing on the cake man. Are you in denial? This isnt a fucking video game man. You can't go in and "kill the small group and the head of the group that killed seven thousand innocent people" It doesnt work like that. Assuming Usama is no better than Saddam, the guy will wrap himself in downtown Kabul and make sure we level at least 1000 civilians, to give fuel to Islamic countries sitting on a fence. crap why do i waste my time with middle america.

I read this message board and cry. Look at you. You are all so busy aruguing with each other. Every one of you has a good point, but I don't see anyone agreeing to disagree. Instead let's fight and call each other names and condemn each other. Fine. Do it all you want. Bottom line, you can talk all of the shit you want on this website and hurt all of these people who are supposed to be your friends of a sort, but when it comes down to it, nothing you say on this will do shit. Keep talking out of your assholes people, and keep condemning each other. It won't change anything.

agreeing to disagree on this subject matter is no good. Imagine if your congress did that. How productive would they be? this is exactly what we need. exchange, dialogue. what has happened is so damn extreme, and will have so many ramifications, dialogue is necessary, healthy and essential to defining our future. I don't condemn individuals, just their POVs. I expect those who know me, to know this about me. I also expect those who engage me to stand up for their opinion or admit when their wrong. Maybe I expect too much. My thoughts on one's opinion are not indicative of my opinions on the individual. Thats are only part of the equation. I dont understand how anyone can read this board and cry.

I just want to say that this is probably the longest a thread has gone with mention of asssex. oops.

"without" - oops again, you knew what I meant.

"Yes, you can only believe at this point, since the evidence hasn't been released to the public. Nice rational basis for your argument, d00d." is it just me, antigone, or are you seriously nit picking for the sake of nit picking? or did you sustain some head injury recently? really, man, this is sub-par for you. in context with what i was saying "i'm not comfortable with our government killing people without trial." evidence has to be public. the US supreme court defends the right of the public to see evidence. confidential evidence is not allowed. "So you're against assasination and non-assasination style military strikes. Ummm...why not just say you're against military strikes and be done with it?" so you're saying military strikes always kill innocents? i wasn't aware.

Eri, I have to disagree. I agree to disagree with just about everybody. Except you. Nate: "i'm against military strikes in which innocents die. what is a targeted strike? assasination?" What does this paragraph mean, if not to contrast military strikes which kill innocents to targeted strikes (assasinations) which (by implication) do not? Did I misread you? I nitpick you, Nate, because you need to clarify your arguments to be effective. To use the language of a man I respect, your arguments, on this issue, are sub-par. "evidence has to be public. the US supreme court defends the right of the public to see evidence." You bet they do, and let's hope they keep defending that right as vigorously as they defend our right for every vote to be counted. :P But, from what you've said above, you've cast judgement on the evidence before ever seeing it. That's beside the fact of whether it's being concealed or not, which it might well be. "so you're saying military strikes always kill innocents?" Answering a question with a question, eh? :P I wasn't saying anything, except to ask you what you were saying. Ya hear what I'm sayin'?

well, to clarify my arguements, i cannot see any benefit from military strikes. i can see some serious negative impacts: 1) any strike that kills innocents will increase the population of terrorists. 2) killing bin laden without (unbiased, non-US based) trial will increase the resolve of his followers. he could very well become the jesus christ of the 21st century. we lost american lives 9/11 because of the way we treat muslim arabs. their arguements are against our middle eastern policies. increasing our violence against arab states will have the net effect of increasing the hate for the US. and there is no evidence that we can do any good. the organization of terrorist networks is small, autonomous cells. they don't need top down leadership, they don't need a lot of funds. they just need hate for the US. the more they have, the stronger they become. the stronger they become, the easier it is for them to hurt us. in interest of peace on earth, military strikes would be counter productive. in interest of increasing the lockdown of america, in fulfillment of john ashcroft's cockgripping dreams, military strikes might be quite appropriate.

Well a passenger plane has been hijacked in India,and that greyhound bus that was hijacked and the drivers throat was slit with boxcutters was done by a terrorist,I'm pissed and I think we should do something,NOW!

"Greyhound President Craig Lentzsch said at a news conference that authorities told him the accident was the result of "an isolated act by a single deranged individual." J, hon, settle down. The plane in India appears to be safe...and appears to be a result of the on going feud between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. Don't get hysterical on us.....yet.

NO! INDIA SHOT THAT PLANE DOWN! I KNOW IT!

eat me dOOd

We are all deranged. Isn't that the truth.

zzzzzzz

Hey, be nice to Eri. She is soft hearted, unlike most of you cinics on this site, and this is her first experience with a BBS. My take is that those of you who oppose military action HAVE NO BALLS! Period. Sure, there is a threat of retaliation. Sure, innocents may die. But, innocents have already died. To do nothing is to discrace the ones (not just in NYC or DC) who have died. To do nothing is the worste thing we can do. Disagree or agree with the president, what ever you want, that is your right as an America (beleive it or not I am pissed right now at the Republicans in congress because they are blocking a releif package to those airline employees who were "furloughed" while giving 15 billion to the damn airlines). But damn it, stop jabbering about the past that gw had nothing to do with, stop bitching about his lack of what you define as couthe, and focus on reality. It is getting ready to land right on your front door. Wether we do anything or not.

i certainly do not advocate doing nothing. trace, tell me in simple terms what you believe military action could accomplish.

OK. Removal of the Taliban, and destruction of the training camps we built for them to resist russian invasion that they are now using for terrorist training, the death of Bin Laden, and his co-harts. Oh, and above I was NOT supporting all the stuff Ashcroft is proposing. What do you advocate doing?

this will scare you

j, please don't read this message. thanks. the network is in place and it has already been shown that with very little money a handful of men can wreck havoc. we can destroy afghanistan. completely level it, and it will not make americans one bit safer. in fact, i would argue that it would increase the likelihood of further terrorist actions in us cities. do you know what is scary? a handful of suicidal men could contract smallpox in a another country and spend the rest of their lives coughing in densely populated US cities. how can we stop that? we can't. a smallpox outbreak in the US, where NO ONE is vaccinated, could kill millions.

even scarier, a handful of posters on a bbs could bore us until we are writhing in inhuman agony, begging our sadistic creator for the sweet release that only death can bring.

NO! THEY SENT THOSE POSTERS FOR US! AND EVERYONE YAWNED AND SAID, "OH IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM" UNTIL THERE WERE TOO MANY BORING POSTS. THEN THEY SHOT THEM DOWN! WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON? IF YOU FAIL TO POST, THE POSTERRORISTS WIN. IF YOU'RE BORED, THE POSTERRORISTS WIN. WHO ARE YOU? I THOUGHT SO. GODDAMMMIT. THEY CAN'T FOOL US. WE'RE TOO SMART FOR THEM. YOU WATCH. YOU'LL WISH YOU WERE BACK IN YOUR POTSMOKE. OH, YES.

sorry the begining of the end bores you. YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK, GOODBYE

mwa.

Turns out that plane highjacking wasn't a highjacking after all,uh,ah...valium anyone?

Can anyone believe that nothing's happened yet? US bombers so far have only dropped food, not bombs. I don't really have any serious objections to how our government is handling the situation. The world gets stranger by the minute.

I cant talk to my wife about these matters. I read too much, she reads too little. Aircraft carriers move at 45mph or something ridiculous like that. Takes weeks to get on the otherside of the world. Further, nothing is going to happen with Rumsfield over seas. So, sem, its going to be at least another week. Unless something really fucking weird happens. Actually the longer they wait, the more confident I am that they are making damn sure they get the right target. I was encouraged by an article I read in the Washington Post yesterday, and i cant find it now but a Senator is proposing a idea similar to the Marshall Plan for Afghanistan. Rebuilding their infrastructure after we get who we need to get, schools, water, food....worked for Japan, worked for Germany. Its not a matter of balls trace, its a matter of brains. Brains!! BRAINS! And no one is AFTER eri trace...please don't get all puffy chested. I don't think anyone expects anymore or less from her. Im sure Eri is a big girl and can stand up for herself in her arguments. BBS or not. Nate, your doomsday scenario about smallpox is highly unlikely. There are only two agencies that have the virus, Russia and us. Its highly highly unlikely these guys can get ahold of such a thing. They just don't have the facilities. Chemical agents are more likely, but biological weapons are damn hard to come by. Much less the facilities to make them into weapons.

Patrick, You are wrong about Smallpox. The virus has been known to survive a long time. I have read that archiologists still get the vacine because they can still come in contact with the live virus during their digs. Semi might know about this more than I do. My knowledge comes from the Discovery channel. Here's a good sight that was pasted to me this morning. http://torrence.stonekitty.net/index.html

there's also that russian base they discovered on some island in the caspian or something-- found drum after drum of anthrax buried on in. enough to kill the world many times over. russians forgot it was there. it isn't even in russia, anymore. who knows how many bases like that are in the economically unstable post-soviet countries?

wrong sir Im quoting a document/PDF from the CDC website. "A Global campaign begun in 1967 under the aegis of the World Health Organization (WHO), succeeded in eradicating smallpox in 1977. In 1980, the World Health Assembly recommended that all laboratories destroy their stocks of variola virus or transfer them to 1 of 2 WHO laboratories-the Institute of Virus Preparations in Moscow Russia or the Centers for Diesease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, GA. All countries reported compliance." It goes on to say that Russia did begin making the virus in mass for ballistic missle deployment and even developed new strains. It goes on to cite the possibilities that due to dwindling finance the possibility that strains fell into non-Russian hands increased. Im not denying the possibility, but Im betting its more remote than nate is saying. Im not talking about the sustainability of the virus. I don't know about archeaologists and their findings.

again, not denying the possibilities, but it takes facilities and serious know-how to manage biological weapons. the chance that the terrorists have the means manage them is limited.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html doesn't matter, looks like they have ebola.

According to the talking heads on CNN/MSMBC et al., it is actually quite simple to create biological/chemical weapons. And the previous senario about a suicide carrying the disease into heavily populated areas to spread it around isn't that far fetched. For some diseases it wouldn't even need the "willing" cooperation of the carrier. Just because the WHO says they have eliminated a disease does not make it true. In this world there can be isolated populations where smallpox could be a minor health problem. Also, a virus needs very little to survive. Who's to say that some "victum" of this bug isn't accidently dug up at a construction site. With the virus serviving on their clothing remnanents. All it would need would be a good host. Some unvacinated kid. What doctor nowadays has seen an actual confirmed case of Smallpox? It could happen. It is a remote possibility. But, it is possible. We are talking about a Virus. Not a Blue Whale in a Wading Pool.

I think our goverment has more or less tried to prepare us for the possibility,and to let us know that our goverment isn't really prepared to handle it.I don't know if this is true or not,but The National Enquier said a source in the justice department says that Bin Laden HAS gotten his hands on the smallpox virus.

fuck the talking heads on CNN/MSNBC. You have to be able to discern truth and fact from hype. They are in the business of scaring you so you'll tay dialed in. Chemical weapons like nerve gas, mustard gas and such are easy. Thats not what I am talking about here. Whether you want to believe it or not, Small Pox WAS erradicated. There hasn't been a diagnosed case for well over a decade, if not 20 years. To do a chemical attack via a crop duster, you would need barrels and barrels of chemicals. To contaminate an entire water supply, you would also need hundreds of gallons to be effective. Dont let the talking monkeys scare you man. Id trust the WHO or CDC more than I would the monkeys on CNN.

fucking christ J, PLEASE don't read the Enquirer for news like that.

How could I pass it up with a headline Bin Laden terrorist tells all? Enquring minds want to know.

Crop dusters aren't designed to spray virus. The set-up is all wrong. The chance of viable small pox in archaeological sites is nil, except for permafrost sites. Patrick, we have Rangers and Special Forces on the ground in Afghanistan right now. The Brits are there as well. We have the capability to start bombing now. The B-52s that bombed Kosovo took off from Missouri.

i know about the sepcial forces sem. incorrect about the b-52s. that was the b2 bombers that took off from MO. trace can verify that for you. it was noted only because that was the first deployement ever of the b2 bomber. b-52s dont have that kind of range. b2s can be refuled in midair b52s may be able to be refueled in the air...which acttually now im thinking they cant, not like a fighter, they are just too big. yes they could have started bombing away days after 11th, but it would have been a disaster. in terms of logistics. i think they have waited to get certain nods of approval in terms of airbases and airspace. what mister rumsfield is doing now. i expect the minute he comes home shit hits the fan.

b-52's can be refueled from the air. haven't you seen the opening sex scene of dr. strangelove? i also think our government is handling this well. i'm quite suprised. smallpox has been irradicated in the human population, but the virus is still available for re-introduction.

from the WHO: Q. Which agents or chemicals are most likely to be used to create a deliberate outbreak? A. Any infectious agents or toxic chemical could in theory be engineered for deliberate use as a weapon. Experts in this field believe that smallpox, anthrax, botulism and plague are the pathogens most likely to be used. However, most if not all outbreaks of infectious disease, whether natural or deliberate, would quickly be detected by the Global Outbreak Alert and Response Network, which continually monitors reports and rumours of disease events around the world. http://www.who.int/emc/questions.htm#disease

Q: What are the chances groups identified as hostile enough to use such a weapon could obtain and deploy such an agent?

it's moot, patty, because they can definitely get ebola.

Probably very good. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to use them. J, I was tempted to pickup that issue also. So far my resistance has been pretty good. I wouldn't believe much of what they printed. Not like the Weekly World News.;)

sure it takes a rocket scientist to manage them. its not as simple as a little vile with some green goo inside.

you have no idea, patrick. it is as simple as a little vial with some goo inside. chemical weapons, on the other hand, are very unlikely because it DOES take a rocket scientist to manufacture them. at least, a chemist with considerable equipment.

less trouble than a pet hamster. just don't drop it.

they are called "biological" weapons because they are living organisms. Bacteria. Living organisms have needs. you would need a biologist as you would a chemist. you can get recipes for chemical weapons off the internet. simplified chemical weapons. You can't go and download ebola or how to create it.

No, but culturing bacteria is NOT the same as producing chemical (ie, artificial) weapons.

Hmmm,it seems now that an outbreak of an ebola like virus has broken out on the Afghan border,hmmm could it be the work of bin satan?

well of course. im admitting you would need experts and specific facilities to handle both. Of which Im doubtful to which extent terrorist groups.

shit we should stop, were gonna get J hysterical again. note J, that article was written back in April.

actually that goof, David Horowitz who wrote that horrific piece on Chomsky is riled here in this article. Some interesting background notes on the fuckwad. Thought you might dig this antigone

http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/05/world/world5.html

I think the US is covering more terrorist attacks.

I think the US is covering up more terrorist attacks.

"Both Russian and Ukrainian military sources have denied a Ukrainian missile hit the plane, according to Russian news reports. They "do not merit serious attention," said a Russian security spokesman. "Neither the direction nor the range [of the missiles] correspond to the practical or theoretical point at which the plane exploded," Defense Ministry spokesman Konstantin Khivrenko told Reuters. "So the Ukrainian military has no involvement, either practical or theoretical, in this accident." Russian President Vladimir Putin said today he doubts a Ukrainian missile could have hit the plane. He said the Russian military observed the exercises on the spot and that "we have no grounds not to trust them and the Ukrainian military." He added, that "defense ministries of both countries are scrutinizing details and technical characteristics [of the plane], that could have led to the explosion and destruction of the TU-154."

patrick, in highschool biology we cultured e. coli. it is not hard to keep things that thrive in the human body alive.

ok trace i think you're being paranoid. why would we cover that up? more terrorist acts would be fuel for the US war machine.

they are denying a missle hit their plane because of how idiotic it looks. Now why the hell a civilan jet liner would be targeted in the first place is suspect.

I considered that fuel the fire idea myself, but Bush in not concerned with that. He said himself they were going to do what they were going to do with or without support, of other nations or the American People. You should know that. The idea of covering up is to keep panic from breaking out. That would be harder to control then the terrorist themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8418-2001Oct4.html http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

"He said himself they were going to do what they were going to do with or without support, of other nations or the American People." trace can you show me where Bush said this? And if he did say it, it furthers exemplifies what a dumbass he is. Presidents who don't play into at least half the country...don't last long. His papa is proof of that. So...on that note trace, i like your self defeating politics. They dont last long. I heard some good news this morning. They are considering food air drops. They are still working out the details...and possible safety threats but they very well could be dropping food in days. Im extremely pleased by this. It looks like food will fall before bombs. That drudge report....though questionable is funny. "If the bombs, taken from old Soviet stockpiles going by Russian markings on the casing, had been released a few seconds later they would have landed in Charicar's packed street market and killed hundreds of people." idiots. J those MiGs , all 5 they have are equivolent to Ford Pintos from the 70s. They are barely a threat, as the article goes on to detail, they didnt even use the right armament, nor hit its "target". Our pilots would play with them like a kitty with a mouse. Seen any good internet porn lately J?

Every once and a while we need a president who does what needs to be done regardless of the opinion of the ignorant masses. Your opinion only highlights that fact.

Why are you picking on me Patrick?

ignorant masses? HA! whats that phrase about the kettle and pot being black or something like that? im not picking on you J, just some of the things you read. Im sorry if it seems that way. I worry about you actually really.

I love being a member of the plebiscite.

Trace, if the terrorists had attacked on Sepember 11th, 2000, would you have supported Clinton in the war effort? What if Gore had won the election? Would you be supporting him now? Just curious.

As long as they were doing what I thought would be the right thing, yes. And Patrick, kiss my white ass, boy.

can I?

nate you might appreciate this

I hope the food drops include Shortwave radios. Then the Afgan people would know what the rest of the world thinks. There is still a lot of interesting things going on in good old World Band Radio.

I don't think much of P.M.Sharon right now, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011005/aponline102659_000.htm

Why not? Isreal just wants the right to defend themselves against the Palistinian Terrorists. The State Department just doesn't want them to make waves while we're preparing to zap bin laden. It's almost like during the Gulf War. Iraq could send Scud missles any time they wanted into Isreal. But, if Isreal took an active role in defending themselves the Islamic countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, would have had a hard time staying in the coalition. Aren't we all so mature;)

speaking of the israeli terrorists, looks like they're shooting at the press now: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011005/aponline163205_000.htm

they have gone beyond the call of duty to protect themselves. "Since fighting erupted Sept. 28, 2000, 670 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 183 on the Israeli side." -LA Times 10/5/01

please, patty, you forgot to factor in the fact that one of the chosen people is worth five of the dirty a-rabs.

Nate, It looks like you've assumed again! The article said the Isrealies were there because shots were fired from that town. Who's to say the shots weren't fired at the Isrealis. And, the reporter happened to be in the line of fire. The reporter didn't see who was doing the shooting. They did the smart thing - they ran.

the article also says the reporter thought the shots were coming from the israelis.

Watcher, would you fucking please spell "Israel" correctly. Your cutesy "Isreal" is really getting old.

Sorry, I can't spell. I'm a product of a puplic school. Meaning I can spell for s***.

Back to the Past... (What I hated about FDR) Franklyn D. Roosevelt's New Deal program: Bankers feared this cause he had taken the Nation off the gold standard and allowed deficits in the budget, and disliked the concessions to labor. Roosevelt (What I liked about him) responded with a new program of reform: Social Security, heavier taxes on the wealthy, new controls over banks and public utilities, and an enormous work relief program for the unemployed. I always stay to the right when voting though. Atleast his cousin Teddy was a Republican. Don't forget! NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE. Clinton=fileGATE

Thanks for hating.

Gas is going up,groceries are going up,and Greenspan practically said forget my social security,no I think he did say forget it.I'm getting hammered and I might spill my guts on the drunken rambeling board,if I don't go to Oblivian first.It's the best way I can help myself.Remember kids,"Question Authority"!!!!There goes the early retirement.Why can't Seigfried and Roy have the BENIFITS of a married couple after 40 fucking years?I love Walter Cronkite,even an old dude like him knows FAIR.

And know I see oral sex is linked to mouth cancer,give me strength.

The more I think about this social security business,I see clearly that all us should just paint a bullseye around our ass,and be prepared to take it up the ass.

invest in astroglide