Tom Pollock, former CEO of Universal Pictures, said it was going to be "ten times harder" to get the studios to make such films. "It's because it will be harder to figure out how to make money from them, and it will become harder for independent films with political content to get distribution." = it will happen slowly and with the approval of the public. in the name of freedom, shut your mouth.

Mark Torres of Concord, California, said he knows little about Canada beyond awareness of its weak military. "Now I also know that Canadians tolerate everything, including the hatred of Americans. With friends like Canada, who needs Third World enemies?"

http://www.marthastewart.com/features/features.asp?CID=885&page=3&idContentType=7

NATO will soon deploy AWACS surveillance aircraft for anti-terrorist operations in the United States in response to the attacks on New York and Washington, NATO officials said Sunday. NATO officials said the United States had asked Friday for the AWACS to be deployed.

New York officials prior to the attack had prepared to clamp down on traffic into the city, severely restricting vehicles coming into the city over bridges and through tunnels, once U.S. forces launched a retaliatory strike. Mayor Rudolph Giuliani addressed New Yorkers less than an hour after the attacks to outline the new security measures. Police chiefs in other cities, including Baltimore and Philadelphia, and in Maine, have said they were coming up with their own versions of these plans

President Bush today thanked Americans for their "patience" with such delays. "In the months ahead, our patience will be one of our strengths — patience with the long waits that will result from tighter security, patience and understanding that it will take time to achieve our goals, patience in all the sacrifices that may come," he said. Attorney General John Ashcroft last month outlined measures to increase federal officials' authority to wiretap the phones of an individual. Normally federal officials can only target specific telephone numbers for wiretapping and can't track multiple numbers of a single individual. Doctors and other medical professionals have also been boning up on how to spot and treat people in the wake of any biological or chemical attack.

expect big things as we return to work. happy sunday.

No shit.

Should I even send my daughter to school? Retaliation is inevitable. I am getting scared for my family on the coasts. Right now I am glad that I don't work. I hope all goes well for you guys.

Go ahead, send her off, she'll be fine. I'm still flying in 2 weeks unless they shut down the air lines again. I usually don't agree with any statement that has the word "patriotic" in it, but some one (i think it was Gephardt) said it was every american's patriotic duty to get on with their lives. Pretty right on.

I'm not drinkin any Slurpee's.

http://www.orosian.demon.co.uk/Weeee.swf

shit i woke to an earthquake yesterday. we War TV and I saw a dead body last night in the road...under a sheet. scooter mangled. SUV crash. i have no problems. further.....the only proper place to display a flag on a car is the front left bumper. See how they do it on gov. and presidential cars? Now you got all these gooooood daaaaammmmnn no good for nothing fucknuts disgracin ole glory by clipping it on windows and puttin it on radio antenna. By the way, those flags clamped to windows make it quite easy to shatter the window, in case you feel like stealin a car. its like the owner went ahead and put pry bar in for you. read martha stewart in times of crisis nate? i understand.

The American flag must always be displayed on the right. It can be displayed on the radio antenna as long as the antenna is located on the right side of the hood.

Its kinda weird,that there's flag rules.

It does seem kind of odd, doesn't it? Especially since flag ettiquete gets really ridiculous...

yeah well.....it stems from military custom. and if you think those are strange rules, you should see some of the details that go into wearing a uniform.

You know what I love? When there was a big stink in the 60s about flag burning, and how its awful... it seems that all those opposed forgot that flag *etiquette* to burn the flag if it gets tattered beyond repair, or if it touches the ground. Hmm. I realize most wanted it banned because of what they believed it meant to all the veterans, but they would have been messing up the whole system of respect one pays to the flag in their attempt to make others respect the flag.

huh?

Yep, Sem, we gotta keep on keeping on. But I am not sure I did the right thing coming back from the woods the other weekend. I am flying to the north woods of Minnesota on Friday, and other than regret over not being able to take my knife, nail clipper, and usual C-4 (for self-defense in case of bear attacks in woods), I'll be packing lighter, leaving earlier, and feeling more comfortable because of the increased security. But I am concerned about viral shit in that airplane: bad enough we all gotta breathe the same air for the entire flight. Now we gotta put up with the possibility of really bad shit in that air. That's a scarier thought than hijacking for me. Flu symptoms. Hmmmm. Everyone ought to buy SAMBUCOL from the health food store. It is antiviral and proven to counter the anthrax virus. One of the few things that will work. They say pencillin will help, but mortality is still high. SAMBUCOL is cheap, still readily available, and is black elder extract. It's also a great preventative for flu and cold, any virus at all. Buy some; now. Anyway, I'm flying Friday regardless. I'll wear my flag on my right antennae.

i wear my flag on my feet. so pbth!

Good advice Daniel. a co-worker just flew back from New York State and said that in the stores on the concourse, after you've passed security, you can buy razor blades.

Thanks Daniel, I'm going to get some of that,I wonder if I can grind it up and put in in the baby's formula? Some man at Sky Harbor set off the metal detector and when they asked him to step aside to wave the wand on him ,he took off and they never did find him,he was described as middle eastern.I am so pissed off and scared at the same time.

can you not pack your pockets knives and culinary knife set in your check-ins that go under the plane?

You should be able to, from what I understand.

I had scissors on my onboard luggage when I was on vacation,also noticed you could buy swiss army knives in the Dallas airport.

it's like airplane II... "I'll take some lifesavers, this magazine, and that timebomb on the left please." As for the flag stuff...you realize that 20, 30, 40 years from now, every time we see a flag, it will have an entirely different meaning to us than it did a month ago? A part of me doesn't like this. A part of me does. I was kind of disgusted that the flag has become the symbol of a war. Yet, at the same time, it's also a symbol of a country we live in, where, despite our complaints, we are free. We're allowed to do what we want, say what we want..most importantly..we know how to have a good time. And we can. We do. I'm proud to be American. I think I sometimes take for granted the choices open for me that other women around the world don't have. So I don't know. I haven't worn a flag. I don't think I will...but still, every time I see one on a car I get both a tingle of pride and disgust at the same time.

I'm still waiting for the day when I get arrested for not wearing a flag. I give it a month---tops.

J, the Sambucol I am aware of and have purchased is an extract, a tincture, in other words, a liquid. I don't know much about the solid form, nor do I think that the American elderberry is the same stuff. I will try to find out. Every substation of the local/regional electric utilities are on "high alert" with "additional security measures and personnel" tonight, according to a friend whose husband is an employee. For Y2K, the regional gas and water utilities had cancelled leaves and manned each facility; I haven't heard if gas and water are on alert. I like to wear my little flag pin of Aruba too, given to me by my boss, the Minister of Justice, my last trip. Causes no little conversation and anxious stares; unless you're Dutch it's unlikely you would recognize the flag except to acknowledge it's not an American flag. There are three flag pins on my hearth in my bedroom, all of them US. (the hearth is the Celtic mystic's equivalent of an altar or a Native North American First People's medicine bundle, or an Inca's or Huichol's karpay)

good bye freedom

It isn't like he is a citizen, and it is like he broke the law. Nice guy or not, those are the rules.

Looks like blatant racism to me. like any other case of Racial Profiling - what a misnomer. If you use only race as your profile, that's nothing but racism, pure and simple. You've probably broke some rules, there, sometime Eri, good thing you're white or else you'd probably be looking at some tim ein front of judge for fitting a profile.

i forget which side of the affirmative action fence you sit on, sem?

". For immigrants, even legal immigrants, that's particularly true, given the challenges of negotiating ever-changing immigration laws and an incompetent INS bureaucracy." Ummm, no bias? I really like that. That is taking it a little far, semi. She worked for AT&T, doing the lowest paying, most stressful job that AT&T has, she was an online rep who answered the "1800REACHOUT" numbers you see ads for on TV. They monitor when you are online taking calls and when you are not. She was pregnant, and that did not help, because when you are pregnant, the baby presses against your bladder, so you have to go to the bathroom more often then not. She got held to the same standards as anyone else, even though she had a legitimate medical reason for her "adherence" (thatis really what they called it) not being at the acceptable 95%. To make matters worse, her water broke while she was online. She had to go. She got written up for leaving work, and was told she was lucky to still have a job. Oh, and the attendance manager was a woman. And it was up to her to make exceptions, and the lady chose not to. No sick days, no bad weather days, nothing. This has been the accepted practice for AT&T Customer Service for decades now. I was a billing rep and had the same standards, except lucky for me, I was home when my water broke....... I work for Booz|Allen|Hamilton, one of the original government consulting firms. This company has been around for about 90 years. Still no funeral leave. I had to attend 2 last year, my grandfather's and Eri's grandmother. Guess what? I spent all my vacation days on funerals. At Sony Electronics, if you go skiing on vacation and break your leg and have to miss work as a result, guess what? you will be either written up or just plain terminated, because you were not able to report to work at the time you were assigned to be. I swear to god, i worked there, the HR manager told me this when they hired me. What is the point of all this? This world is made up of rules. If you do not like your employer's rules, then you do not have to work there. You do not like the rules that come along with immagration, then dont move here. that rule was on the visa he signed. INS does have a lot of problems, hell they just approved the extension on the visas for some of the highjackers. but we have to start cracking down. and one thing that really chaps my hide is to hear someone way "they owe it to me".

spunky. All men are created equal. we "normal" citizens get breaks all the time, and barely notice. The only reason anything in this country really works is because most of the time, the government isn't looking. Hrm... was it Shaw who wrote that "Government is an organization that, although it does big things horribly, does little things just as badly?" He was legally an American. wasn't he entitled to all that American Dream second chance crap? The only thing that makes him different from all of us who jaywalk or accidentally file our taxes wrong or drive w/o a seatbelt once in a while, is his country of origin. If I remember correctly, selective enforcement of the law based on nationality is illegal. but no one is going to call them on it. We have to be willing to look past the rules if we want the same courtesy extended to us. A government, after all, is just a bunch of people.

"All men are created equal" ha. all people deserve equal opportunity, maybe, but all people are not created equal. you poor, poor fuck. and selective enforcement of the law is perfectly legal. you don't get a ticket every time you get pulled over, do you?

selective enforcement of the law is NOT legal. it's just not enforceable at the highest level, because, well, who watches the watchmen? I don't get a ticket every time because sometimes I'm going 60 in a 55 and sometimes I'm doing 80. and as far as people being created equal: I see that rather obviously being not true. in fact, there's a quote that's been running in my head today "God created all men equal; Sam Colt made 'em that way." But the point is, the powers that be will always invoke the American Dream crap, complete with reverence for Jeffersonian ideas like "all men are created equal." (not that I really want to get into a debate about Jefferson). But if they're going to spew it, (ask your elected official whether he/she believe in "all men are created equal"), they oughta follow through with it.

i thought the american dream was all about equal opportunity. maybe all men were created equal is just short hand for the sentiment. but as you say, it is obviously not true. if all people are created equal, there is no need for laws to protect their equal opportunity. equality would be obvious and natural. instead, we need laws to protect equal opportunity, because all people are not created equally- some are created stupid, some smart; some are created evil, some less so. the weak justify the strong, and all that. selective enforcement of the law is absolutely legal. agents of law enforcement are trained to enforce the spirt of the law, not the letter of the law. at their discretion. selective enforcement. legal.

that's my fault. I should have defined "selective enforcement" to mean something like "applying the same law/punishment/consequence every time a certain situation is met." or "same stimulu, same reaction." hrm. I just erased a long ramble about "all men are created equal," and the Declaration and Jefferson and ideals. But I'm tired of this discussion, and I don't think that Nate believes in ideals of any sort, so it's useless. in general I am not a Jeffersonian at all. this did get me thinking, though. There's a new book out that's supposed to be very good about The early days of the Nation, and Jefferson's fights with John Marshall. Yeah. "What Kind of Nation" by James Simon. I'm rambling again. I think I just spotted the major disagreement, though. Do you really believe, Nate, that some people are created evil?

i just wish that everyone (in the usa) knew the truth or were taught the truth. all those millions of people that actually believe they have a chance. that their lives are scarcely more than a unit of work, like a horsepower, in a big machine that produces wildly lop-sided prosperity for a charmed few. but, whatever. as long as their favorite team wins, they win as well. if not, there's always next season or another team. me, i'm going to the portland zoo with cleo's class today.

"All men are created equal" after reading Spunky's last post it seems maybe not,what's this about you being home when your water broke Spunky?

looks like eri and spunky took up that sale on sand at Home Depot lately. I wish i was going to the zoo with dave. so....in this instance, was this man, who was a good, productive citizen, other than "aiding illegals" by helping them find an apartment, was he given equal opportunity? And eri, spunky, if you choose to stick to that shit about break a rule, pay the price...think about these, which are techincally still illegal in Texas: -A city ordinance states that a person cannot go barefoot without first obtaining a special five-dollar permit. -It is illegal to take more than three sips of beer at a time while standing. -The entire Encyclopedia Britannica is banned in Texas because it contains a formula for making beer at home. -(Austin) Wire cutters can not be carried in your pocket. -(Mesquite) It is illegal for children to have unusual haircuts. (eri did you say something wacky happened to your girl's hair recently? OFF TO JAIL!!!!!! -(San Antonio) It is illegal for both sexes to flirt or respond to flirtation using the eyes and/or hands. (Damn you two, i bet your guilty guilty guilty of this one!!!!!!!) OFF YOU GO!!!!!!!!!! you get the point? the man in the article doesnt not deserved to be deported. He is exactly the kind of person America has thrived on for centuries.

a chance at what, dave? and personally i'm glad that no one taught that particular brand of truth to me, i had enough scary and depressing stuff to deal with

i've never heard about that encyclopedia britannica thing. i just always assumed that texans don't use encyclopedias. besides, the state is full of homebrewing/winemaking supply shops. it's all them czechs and germans. i had a roommate who homebrewed beer. one night the bottles blew up and sent bottle caps everywhere and stained the ceiling. one of the caps embedded itself in the wall and we left it there.

dave., whether you are a cog or not is determined by your definition of 'prosperity'. if you want to play the game, you are a whore, yes. but if you don't need the car, the house, etc., there is enough socialism in the country to keep you alive and moderately healthy. at least healthier than the average third world bloke, which is pretty darn good.

i was kidding about the water thing... OK, Patty, what do you think, INS regulations are as obsolete as all that crap you listed above? Just let everyone walk on in and do whatever the fuck they feel like. Or, maybe, just obey the laws YOU think are still valid. Nevermind the harboring illegal immegrants thing, it is just, what, an obsolete law? or rude and inconvenvient, so we will chastise the government for using it!!!

spunky I'll refer to one of nate's post to answer you. "selective enforcement of the law is absolutely legal. agents of law enforcement are trained to enforce the spirt of the law, not the letter of the law. at their discretion. selective enforcement. legal." think about this when a cop lets you off with a warning for speeding Id bet my fucking bank account that had he been a 65 year old Dutch lady who made scones for 13 hours a day he would not be deported for such a "violation". But because he was Pakistani, you can damn well bet his ass is outta here. He "helped them find an apartment". He didnt shelter them, he didn't stash them in his basement for months. He probably did nothing more than make a few phone calls, and drove them around to check places out. Give me a fucking break.

"selective enforcement of the law is absolutely legal. agents of law enforcement are trained to enforce the spirt of the law, not the letter of the law. at their discretion. selective enforcement. legal." This is true. My question to you is this, race aside, did you know this man or do you only know what you read in the article, which could very easily be full of spin to try to make their point? What the paper says makes you think he is the perfect legal immigrant, though I disagree on this point and I don't think he was the ultimate American immigrant based on what I read, I don't know him, never have, and therefore don't have the right to speak of his character. That is like saying that O.J. obviously did nothing wrong because the gloves didn't fit.

i have no problem with it. he broke the law, get him out. he's a pakistani national, right? he's not a citizen. pakistani nationals are higher risk to the american public than dutch grandmas. what is wrong with persuing every legal avenue to remove high risk individuals from the country? it's not a racism issue-- if he was an ethic pakistani US citizen it would be a different story.

Thank you Nate. My point exactly.

what is your basis for disagreement that he is/was here legally? Blind suspicion? A journalist, especially in the Washington Post would be committing practically career suicide by stating so bluntly "he was a legal citizen" when he wasn't. Thats easy homework to do for a journalists. One phone call to the INS. Upon further net-vestigation i learned from a Pakistani based publication that he earned his visa in a "lottery" We don't need to speak of his character. That doesnt matter. The only law he broke, I've learned again, upon further net-vestigation is that he signed the rental agreement for his illegal friends. What can I say eri....nothing in the article that is stated as fact, such as his legal status, crime he could be deported for, where he was detained etc are throwing any red flags up for me. Eri, the trick is knowing WHEN to be suspect. And again, the whole point of this, is, the INS is not rounding up immigrants from non-Muslim marjority countries. You arent hearing about Aussie's being rounded up like this, held without cause for months on end and shipped out on a minor technicality (as much as Id like those dingo buggers to go). If we are going to apply such a zero tolerance policy to this man...apply it to everyone! If we applied that zero tolerance crap to Latinos, two of the largest states in the Union, yours and mine would suffer greatly.

so on that note nate, you thought the camps we set up for Japanese during ww2 were just? They were "high risk" individuals. Im not a subscriber to racial profiling not matter how you butter it up.

this isn't racial profiling. he is a pakistani citizen in the US on a visa. his visa was revoked because he committed a crime. this is all legal and, frankly, normal. if he were a US citizen of pakistani ethnicity (or whatever race you want to call it,) he could not be legally deported. "so on that note nate, you thought the camps we set up for Japanese during ww2 were just? They were "high risk" individuals. " on that note you need to re-read what i've written. those were US citizens put in camps-- NOT JUST. get the distinction?

His character speaks as to whether or not he did wrong and should be deported. He did wrong. He should be deported. Duh. Sorry, you don't have any red flags going up, but that is your problem not mine. Like it would bother me if the illegal immigrants here were deported. The city wouldn't crumble to dust. Deporting an immigrant and locking up a citizen are two different things altogether. This isn't rocket science patrick. Only common sense. Sorry if you don't get it.

awwwwww eri's gettin uppity riding on nate's coat tails. he's not an illegal immigrant eri. he's was/is here legally. ok, i understand what your saying,nate, the distinction between being naturalized and here on a visa. my question still remains. Had this been a Swedish immigrant, here on a visa, would he been dealt with the same? moot specualtion perhaps, but it was you who mentioned "high risk" implying racial profiling.

he is a citizen of a high risk nation. that's the difference between a paki on a visa and a swede on a visa: 95% of pakis want to kill us.

95% of pachyderms want to kill us.

"he is a citizen of a high risk nation. that's the difference between a paki on a visa and a swede on a visa: 95% of pakis want to kill us." The real cost of 9/11 is the fear that generates racist bigotted statements like this. Come talk to some of the Iraqis in my English class. They will make better citizens than I could ever hope to be because every single day they marvel at the freedom I take for granted. If only you could see their adorable pathetic attempts to be Australian. One of them has taken to wearing a stockman's hat and says "G'day" in the cutest accent. It makes me cry to think how much they love this country. And if an illegal immigrant came to them for help, they would give it, even if it meant they risked losing everything. They want to share the freedom, not keep it all for themselves like Nate.

Since when do I have to ride Nate's coattails to get uppity. I just think you are a fool, and not looking at the whole picture, just the bits and pieces you want. I do admit that I am more selfish than those who have had less than I have. I am sure that I take things for granted, that I don't even know I take for granted. I do believe in securing my freedom or rather the freedom of the next generation (as much as I can) before I share it. I never said that this guy was an illegal immigrant, he was here legally, but he is not a citizen, that is where the difference lies for me. I have never met any muslims or Pakistani people that I didn't like, and I don't think all muslims are evil. But to me this isn't about his religion or his race. It is about the fact that he is not a citizen and he broke the law. Plain and simple.

His crime was not letting people sleep on the streets. Fry him in hell. Crimes of compassion will not be tolerated.

His crime was signing papers to provide a home here to people who have no business being here and didn't bother becoming legal immigrants. Don't fry him in hell, send him home.

Yeah, the people he helped had no business being there. They should have stayed home where women get stoned for adultery and girls don't get educated. And anyone who speaks out against the system is imprisoned in unthinkable conditions. Do you have any idea how hard it is to legally migrate to America? I waited five months to get a one year working visa, and the paperwork was incredible. And that was me, a nice white girl with a prominent American corporation sponsoring me and declaring that they needed my expertise. If you have to get out of somewhere like Afghanistan or Pakistan quickly, it's unlikely you want to front up to the authorities for a farewell party. Illegal immigrants risk their lives coming to countries like America. They come with nothing and they turn their back on everything that they've ever known. Then they work horrible deadend cum-mopping jobs to survive. I've helped illegal immigrants find accommodation in my time and I'm bloody proud of it. Where the fuck is your humanity, Eri? Hiding under your trailer?

Again, I have never claimed to be a humanitarian. I don't believe that because they left something behind they belong here. Illegal immigrants need to go home. The system is the system, and if you are not a citizen then there are things you need to do to come here or become a citizen. It may not be the choice you want but it is a choice nonetheless. Come to our country by our laws or stay the fuck out. You are a guest in a country where you are not a citizen. Abide by those laws or get out. If you want to find my humanity under my trailer, I am afraid you are out of luck. Don't have one, never have. Maybe you will find it underneath the trailers you stick illegal immigrants in. Doubt it though. I am not a humanitarian. Oh, and those dead end cum-mopping jobs they do here to survive, they belong to out of work American Citizens and legal immigrants who can't find work. I owe someone who comes here illegally nothing. I work hard as does every member of my family. My tax dollars need to be spent on my country and not the health care or anything else for illegal immigrants. They need to go home and do it right. If they are a legal immigrant here, and they don't follow the same laws we have to abide by here, then they need to leave too. America may be considered a world power, but we are not a free for all. We have problems we need to work out here without having to babysit the rest of the world.

oh my god guess you should be glad that your family got here before the 'system' kicked in good and proper

95% of pac mans want to kill us.

"The real cost of 9/11 is the fear that generates racist bigotted statements like this." how was that a racist bigotted statement? because i inflated the numbers to make my point? or are you trying to tell me more swedes than pakistanis want americans dead? the trick to liberalism is to cloak the real issues in a guise of political correctness and doublespeak. when a dirtybomb goes off in a major city and the us economy goes to shit, the luxury of 'humanity' will be erased from all the world, instead of just the third world countries these people are trying to escape from.

99% of broiled in garlic butter deep sea scallops which will be eaten today out of deference for a forgotten religion's rule are illegitimately and probably illegally on US dining tables. Whatever happened to animal rights? We are all in one big lunchroom with an established and hierarchial chain across the doors. Food fight! Quick! Lock up all the candy!

it's just that topic about equality and opportunity that gets me going. it's pretty clearly what we want but we only think we're getting it whereas if we knew we were most likely never going to get it from the current system, we might be more willing as a whole society to tweak the system to give us more of what we want. i don't fucking know. it's goddam fantasyland. thesystemthesystemthesystem. it sounds so fuckin wacko rcp. you're right, nate. i could just give up and live off the social services, or be a corporate whore. it just seems like things are getting way off-kilter for the average schmoe out there. the folks who are paying off credit debt well over half their income. who own a home, a couple cars, etc. "living the dream" these folks are gonna get screwed when the shit falls apart. the poor are already there, can't get much worse for them, and the charmed will be ok, they may have to sell the 3rd or 4th house but they'll be all right. this is what the average person should know, instead of whether joey and rachel will ever hook up again or phoebe or whoever or whether the mariners will be strong again this year or what p.diddy said. so, yeah. nice and incoherent. writing is gay. here's some pictures of the trip to the zoo with cleo's class.

the cajuns believe that crawfish are descendants of the lobsters that followed the acadians from nova scotia to louisiana. none of those arthropods were ever properly documented. they should all be deported back to canada. inflating the numbers to prove a point is quite cavalierly racist, akshully.

dave's pictures remind me of a time i ran into a guy i knew years back. real son-of-a-bitch he was in his day. did all the drugs, the crimes, the sins. i was at a mall and he was just outside the restrooms. we talked a little. then the cutest little girl of six or so comes out of the bathroom, walks over to him and takes his hand. he looks at me almost embarrassed and says, "this my kid, dawn." i had to bite my inner lip to keep from laughing. it was seemed so absurd that he could produce something like that.

you're on my list, pal.

snarl, papa bear.

I just know, deep down, that Dave made animal sounds at some stage during the day. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

it must be so nice to live in such a black and white world. i deliberately avoid these conversations usually, but i find this thread sickening. no need to name names. i'm glad dave went to the zoo.

Did he make animal noises? You could find out and reveal all.

Don't go denigrating cum-mopping jobs. I just had my 3rd interview for Head Cum-Mopper at FantasyWorld, but they turned me down. Said something about creating more cum than I was mopping. Bastards.

i may have while i was pinching off a loaf down by the africa exhibit. the kids were howling at the wolf. to the wolf, i imagine it sounded like snack.

Okay, well, I exaggerated. It was only 95%. Not including Red Lobster imitation deep sea scallops. Droopy, I'm coming your way in June.

"inflating the numbers to prove a point is quite cavalierly racist, akshully." only if the point is racist in nature. goddamnit, someone convince me otherwise. bring me back into the idealistic world where everyone is born good and turned evil by americans. but don't call me a fucking racist, because that hardly fits. like the calls of antisemite when you point out that israel is a terrorist organization. it's a diversion.

Read an interview with a come mopper judging the people of an entire nation based on the actions of a few is racist. its profiling nate. 95% of Pakistani's don't want us dead. I would dare say the majority of Pakistani's want our freedoms. They want our policies dead, but they don't want American's dead. Eri, you keep yourself in that isolationist, nationalist little cave of yours. Your way of thinking is dangerous, inhumane and shameful. Im sorry you're not bright enough to realize that were all in this fucking bathtub together and by keeping the soap away from me, I only pollute your bathwater as well. Dave, Agatha those are the first pics i've seen of Cleo in a long long time. She's SOOO grown up. I remember (like I REALLY KNOW her) when she was a blonde little sprite.

"Eri, you keep yourself in that isolationist, nationalist little cave of yours. Your way of thinking is dangerous, inhumane and shameful." Dangerous and inhumane are subjective. There is no shame involved in how I think. Frankly I have always thought that your way of thinking is beyond dangerous, in fact, asking for trouble. "Im sorry you're not bright enough to realize that were all in this fucking bathtub together and by keeping the soap away from me, I only pollute your bathwater as well." It isn't a matter of intelligence. When you immigrate to the U.S. there are rules and laws you have to follow. If you can't do that, bye bye. Your bathwater is polluted either way.

calm down, nate. it's just that there's something so funny to me about the fact that that sentence issued from your keypad.

your proclamations of "not being a humanist", this "us first" crap, this non-sense about "babysitting" the rest of the world is derived from xenophobia, nationalism, isolationism which are all attributes to some of the worlds greatest humanitarian disasters. Why don't you describe to me how my way of thinking is dangerous? Im pretty sure it will paint a pretty picture of your narrow mind. If we all played by the rules Eri, this country would have been established. Your failure to realize the big picture is sad.

The next century we'll all be fighting about water.

your way of thinking is dangerous, patrick, because it comes from the assumption that all people are essentially good. which all people are not. people are power hungry and when in power are vicious. this has been shown over and over again throughout history. hell, even spider and antigone will back this up from the body of psychological knowledge. "judging the people of an entire nation based on the actions of a few is racist. its profiling nate. " bullshit, patrick. the world judges us on the actions of a few (our government.) is that racism? if i see a termite on my coffee table, i'm tenting the house. racism. pfooy

"your proclamations of "not being a humanist", this "us first" crap, this non-sense about "babysitting" the rest of the world is derived from xenophobia, nationalism, isolationism which are all attributes to some of the worlds greatest humanitarian disasters." Yeah, and? You keep spilling the same dribble over every link. It gets old. Tell me something new already. I am not a humanitarian, so why would it bother me if my way of thinking lead to humanitarian disasters? "Why don't you describe to me how my way of thinking is dangerous? Im pretty sure it will paint a pretty picture of your narrow mind." Why bother? You know it all and you are always right. Your way is the only way, so why point out it's flaws. It wouldn't make a difference to you anyways. You are too full of yourself and your rightness and perfectness (which in itself is dangerous). My failure to see the big picture is sad, huh? Whatever, Patrick. Cry if you want. I get sick of this attitude that if you break the law you are some kind of victim. The whole world is victimized by the world we live in. No one can escape the evil world. People make choices, some good & some bad. When we break the law we have to pay the price. It is called taking responsibility for your actions. The whole idea that because you are a victim of an evil government absolves you from responsibility is bullshit. If you are a minority, and you get caught breaking the law, it is allright because you are a victim of an opressive government. No accountability. It is all of the sudden an issue of race or some evil profiling and it is not your fault. A bunch of bullshit. You can question my thinking and condemn it all you want. It doesn't matter. You can ask me why I think you are the problem all you want. It still doesn't matter. You can insult my intelligence, or whatever you feel like, but what it bottom lines to is the fact that I do think differently than you on many topics and your useless dribble won't do a thing to change my mind. I really don't care what you think. I think of you as a self-righteous, hypocritical, freak who isn't willing to take a look in the mirror. I may state what I think or how I feel, but I have never said that my way is the only way. Your failure to see that you are not perfect is sad.

"people are power hungry and when in power are vicious." aren't racism, xenophobia, nationalism etc tools of these people? If we take away their tools for doing bad, they can't be that effective. i don't believe people are essentially good, but I believe the good outnumber the bad, and if we let the bad fester and permiate the normally good, (i.e stirring up the masses with misinformation with propaganda etc) well, we get what we deserve. I believe Eri, generally speaking a good person with good intents, but she is "victim" to propaganda of fear, nationalism and isolationism based on the belief that it will somehow better us, as Americans.

Don't be a pussy, Nate. You have a point about protecting America by profiling and targeting immigrants from "dangerous" nations, but it is racist. Shit, it's the very definition of racism: targeting the members of an ethnic group for differential treatment. The guy did break the law, but he was singled out for scruitiny partly because he's Pakastani. You don't see the government rounding up Swedish immigrants, do you? Personally I think that sometimes racism is necessary. We just shouldn't make a habbit of it. Unfortunately, there are many people who do, and even more who aren't normally racist but literally leap at the chance to be so if the social conditions are right. I was working in Alabama over 9/11 and it was pretty scary...

"You have a point about protecting America by profiling and targeting immigrants from "dangerous" nations, but it is racist. Shit, it's the very definition of racism: targeting the members of an ethnic group for differential treatment." they aren't targeting members of an ethnic group for differential treatment. that's my early point-- it is his nationality, not his ethnic group that led to his deportation. is 'pakistani' even a race? we aren't rounding up indians, either. aren't indians essentailly the same 'race' as pakistanis? please.

"aren't racism, xenophobia, nationalism etc tools of these people?" nationalism protects nations. if it weren't for nationalism, we wouldn't be here. nationalism, xenophobia, isolationism-- these are all protective traits of memes. and they've done well from an evolutionary view. to which, once again, i believe antigone would agree. of course, antigone isn't really in this argument with both feet.

Well I know what this makes me as we hire aliens all the time to do work for us,we pay them more cause we know how much they are saving us, we always get them something to eat while they are working,keep plenty of cold drinks for them,my husband works with them and they are hard working,but they aren't working for the American dream,they don't want to be citizens,they are working to send money back to their families in Mexico.Most of them that is,I also know some that did become citizens and are proud of it.I know a guy that was caught trying to sneak over the border 20 some times before he made it and he's one proud citizen,but aliens like him have become an exception to the rule.

"nationalism, xenophobia, isolationism-- these are all protective traits of memes. and they've done well from an evolutionary view." well we'll just have to part ways disagreeing. I believe these have caused more bad than good. protecting memes in one column often leads to destroying another.

"protecting memes in one column often leads to destroying another." you can either have some people live well, or no people live well. the idea that all people can live well is an indication that you smoke too much pot.

or that perhaps you need to smoke more. last night i got a sack. first time in 2 months we've bought a sack.

and to totally shift gears from this now boring topic. so what gives...did you quit altogether? just cut back? what prompted such a previously unthinkable action? dave's quit the hooch...you've quit the bong.

Nate, am I ever in an argument "with both feet" in your eyes? Ya, those memes have been successful so far. That doesn't mean that they can't be altered or done away with, though. It also doesn't mean that they can't have ill effects which may, at times, outweigh their beneficial effects. If evolution teaches us anything it's that environments change. Organisims that don't adapt will probably die. Just because a meme has provided an advantage in the past does not mean it will provide that advantage in the future.

"is 'pakistani' even a race?" Lots of different races. Pakistan is a big can of worms, as in India. "aren't indians essentailly the same 'race' as pakistanis? " Puh-lease! Shows what you know.

europeans, pakistanis, and indians (bharati) are all caucasoids.

so we exported an illegal cracker? where is the racism there?

and patty, i just don't seek it out and it doesn't come up much. it's not cold turkey. i don't always turn down a bowl. i'm just not offered one often.

they deported one of our own. fuckin' race traitors.

BTW dave and agatha, your daughter's adorable. I'm hoping to have me one of those soon.

They deported a guest who didn't follow the rules. Not racism, just reality. I have a feeling he isn't the only one to be deported in the past year, and I doubt that this is the only race to have had someone deported since 9-11.

has it not yet been made clear that 'race' is the wrong word?

or at least a confusing word 1 : a breeding stock of animals 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race> i remember being taught what droopy said. caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid.

we could use "unwarranted bias" instead.

sorabjites are a race (def 2.) anybody who thinks we're just a bunch of electronic wankers is a a racist.

Eri, I think we're aware that you think it's fine that this "guest" was rounded up after 9/11 because of the colour of his skin. You agree that he should have been interrogated and investigated until they found something they could pin on him. And you feel he should be kicked out like an unwanted animal because he helped some people in need. You don't care that the law he broke was minor and that he was only guilty of compassion. And he's going to be sent back to a country where you, as a female, would barely be able to write let alone express your small-minded opinions. Thanks for sharing. For the record, I am ashamed of Australia's treatment of asylum seekers. We lock them up. Women, children. And we lock them up in a place called Woomera, named for the aboriginal word for spear, which is so god-fucking-forsaken it was used as a rocket testing range. They will be detained at our leisure behind razor-wire fences for two years and then 90% of them will be handed temporary visas which don't give them access to services like free English classes for their children. And all this in a continent with only 20 million people and a declining birth-rate.

Among the people of the Indian Subcontinent are Aryans, Mongoloids, and Negroids. so there. Here's something to ponder: was it really "legal" for ANY of our ancestors to come settle here? It's not like we were INVITED or anything. What we did to that pakistani was wrong, pure and simple. Perhaps some punishment was in order, but deportation? uhn-uhn. and again, I will stress that a lot of us here have nothing relevant to say on profiling because we are mostly members of the dominant ethnic group in this country.

I watched some very scary footage of Woomera tonight; I think it's telling that the terminolgy we (of the sorabjioid race) are using is not "asylum seekers" but "illegal aliens." But I dunno what it tells. BBC uses the "asylum seekers" tag which I personally can't define in a specific way and which I find much more ameliorative than "illegal Aliens.". Can't we all just get along? Arafat and Sharrone. Saddam and George Senior. Milosovich and NATO. The secretary in the blue dress and me.

" will stress that a lot of us here have nothing relevant to say on profiling because we are mostly members of the dominant ethnic group in this country" that's a racist statement. affirmative action is racial profiling. liberals don't get all up in arms about that. race is a card to play when it benefits your cause.

95% of alpacas want to kill us.

" The system is the system, and if you are not a citizen then there are things you need to do to come here or become a citizen. It may not be the choice you want but it is a choice nonetheless. Come to our country by our laws or stay the fuck out. " Eri, I haven't been able to get this out of my head. Do you understand how this nation--which apparently is all-fucking-important--was formed? People came from all sorts of different countries; they weren't legally documented. They came here because they (thought they) had a chance to improve their lot. Remember "America, the melting pot of the world?" This nation will crumble in on itself faster and faster if we don't keep finding more resources [ain't THAT the american way?], in this case, cultural resources. also, I'm too drunk to try to be coherent on this topic. sorry, kids. But damn. the system was created with the idea that there would be humanitarian in(over)sight. laws are NOT made to be black and white. Everyone know about strict constructionism vs. loose constructionism? strict constructionists are those who are in power, and they will always read the laws as black and white because to allow leeway is to allow challenges to the powers that be (the winners write the rulebook, as well as the history book). What ever happened to Do Unto Others as you would have them do unto you? What's so fucking hard about that?

100% of the Founding Fathers were born male in a world hostile to the highly spiritual community that they envisioned. Novus Ordum Secularum. I wonder how Little George would fit with those guys...

"laws are NOT made to be black and white." "selective enforcement of the law is NOT legal" whatever, dude.

As stated in my earlier post is that many aliens that come here don't want to be Americans,like I said about the Mexicans.See my last post.My family has been here since the American Revolution,they came here from Ireland but they wanted to be an American and America will never be the same after 9/11.

daniel - what sin hast thou committed that thou art sentenced to texas in june?

j, what does that mean? want to be american. do you have to pledge to shop at malls and spend x number of hours watching tv and increase your body weight by 33.333% do you have to forsake your heritage and your family if they can't come here with you? america apparently means different things to different people. it definitely means something different to those born here than it does to those who immigrate here. i love how easy it is for people like nate to adopt a non-chalant righteousness about the inequities and contradictions of our society. profiling is easy to accept when you'll never be an object of a profiler's attention. in fact, it keeps all those dirty, yammering, dark-skinned folks away from your suburban sanctuaries. it's a good thing, eh martha?

"What ever happened to Do Unto Others as you would have them do unto you? What's so fucking hard about that?" I never said that I am doing other than I would have done to me. If I were to go to a foreign country and break their laws, I would expect to be deported as well. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that either. "Eri, I think we're aware that you think it's fine that this "guest" was rounded up after 9/11 because of the colour of his skin. You agree that he should have been interrogated and investigated until they found something they could pin on him. And you feel he should be kicked out like an unwanted animal because he helped some people in need." I never said anything about being "rounded up" because of the color of his skin. In helping "people in need" he broke the law. For this he is being deported. I don't think this should be a practice for only certain races. I don't feel this is an insignificant law. As far as how this country was founded, that is really insignificant hundreds of years later. Things have changed since then and continue to change. Some changes good, some bad, and changes will continue. The only constant in our lives is change. Things will never be what they were before. "profiling is easy to accept when you'll never be an object of a profiler's attention. in fact, it keeps all those dirty, yammering, dark-skinned folks away from your suburban sanctuaries." Actually, my suburban sanctuary is filled with many people with all kids of different skin colors. I have never in my life lived in any suburban area where there were only "white" people. To assume that because you are white you are never a victim of any kind of racism is ignorant.

Eri, you fail to realise Ansar Mahmood was arrested ILLEGALLY. Yes it was done for national security at a time of incredible paranoia but he was still treated unjustly because of the colour of his skin. A greater injustice was committed against him than the one he committed. Would you have turned away illegal immigrants who came to you desperate for a place to stay? Would you have called the INS?

Isn't Australia the place that wouldn't let Sammy Davis Jr. off the plane?

Not that I know of. We did have a problem with Frank Sinatra but that was because he was a wanker, not because of an anti-blue eye policy. "In 1974 he created an international incident when, during a performance in Australia, he attacked reporters as "bums and parasites who have never done an honest day's work" and called the women of the Australian press "broads and buck-and-a-half hookers." Sinatra's remaining concert in Australia was canceled and the government refused to let his plane leave until he issued an apology. He offered a half-hearted one."

my dad loves sinatra. i never did. but he took me to the first concert i ever went to, which was sammy davis jr. i thought it was a great show. i read an article about sammy in vanity fair a while back. when he was drafted into the army during ww2, he was regularly beaten up by his fellow white american soldiers. because he was black. that distinctive flat nose of his came from having it broken during those beatings.

They may have arrested the man for the wrong reasons, but he did commit the crime. It is a double edges sword. If a family came to my door, would I send them away or call INS? Yes, I would. I am not about to harbor some illegal immigrants. I don't like them being here one bit. I don't like my tax dollars giving them better health benefits than the ones I have. I am not in support of people coming here without following the law to do so. The laws are there for a reason. On the other topic. I have never been a fan of Frank Sinatra. I always thought he was too full of himself, and frankly not all that good. I do like music of that era, but not his. It doesn't surprise me that he did that to the people of Australia. I would have been glad to see him leave. After a half heared apology, pack up, go and don't come back.

eri, if a group of those same illegal immigrants ever chops off your head and performs unspeakable acts to your corpse, i'll feel somewhat less bad after reading what you just wrote. sort of the same way i'd feel less bad if a group of australians beheaded and molested frank sinatra after hearing what he said.

So, after eri shows a lack of compassion, you follow suit dave? May the circle be unbroken...

it's different for me than it is for everyone else.

"I don't like my tax dollars giving them better health benefits than the ones I have." ha ha ha my god. eri, where do you live? illegal immigrants don't get health benefits supported by your tax dollars. perhaps before you stand so firm behind your bigotted opinion you should come to new york and talk with some illegal immigrants who are exploited and fucked over by americans- not because they want a piece of your tax dollars, but because they want to make a better life for themselves and their families who have stayed behind under godforsaken conditions because only one family member could afford to sell their body to send money home so the family could eat more than once a day. people with your mindset disgust me. you should be ashamed.

On that note: HAPPY EASTER!!!

"egal immigrants don't get health benefits supported by your tax dollars." they do in california. in 1994(?) the people of california voted for prop 187 which made this illegal, but a judge in san francisco said it is probably not consitutional and go on giving these people health care. aside from that, bell_jar is right on. if it weren't for the population of illegal workers in the state of california the fresh produce that feeds the whole USofA, save for that small lot of organic vegetables that danielsss grows, would cost a whole shitload more. for the most part, illegals in california are hard working, family oriented and of stronger moral character than your average legal american. i am against racial profiling, which anyone who actually has read what i've written would realize. that's to you, dave. i've been against racial profiling in every argument i can recall on these boards for the past five years. which is more than i can say for most of you, affirmative action supporting liberal bafoons.

Palm Beach debates free health insurance for impoverished illegal immigrants By STACEY SINGER Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel May 24, 2000 It's a question that has inflamed debate from California to New York: Should taxpayers cover the cost of health insurance for illegal immigrants? As Palm Beach County hospitals fret about rising charity care costs, the pressure is on the county's Health Care District to expand the number of people covered under its free insurance program. The district's board will consider the question at its meeting today. Kevin Gay, director of eligibility for the Health Care District, has spent this week estimating how many people might be affected if illegal immigrants could participate in the county's program to insure the working poor. Gay said it could add at least $5 million per year to the district's insurance budget. Board member Scott Porter does not like the idea. "The fact is, most of the people we are taxing are struggling, too," Porter said. State-run insurance programs such as Medicaid and Healthy Kids do not cover undocumented immigrants either. Porter said he might endorse insuring all immigrant children because they have little control over their circumstances, and society would benefit from their care. District CEO Cecil Bennett said he's raising the issue because of a recent court decision overturning California's Proposition 187, which prevented illegal immigrants from receiving any public benefits in that state, including health and education. The ruling is under appeal, but if upheld, it could force all governments to expand services to illegal immigrants. "The federal court ruling said you have to treat illegal immigrants the same way you treat others," Bennett said. He acknowledged the question will be controversial. "There are people in the community who get very emotional about it. They say, 'You're using my tax dollars to take care of illegal immigrants.'" Others say it is immoral for the district not to cover undocumented immigrants. "Somebody who needs dialysis, if they don't get it, they will die," said Karlie Richardson, deputy director of the Haitian American Community Council in Delray Beach. Her group is helping several uninsured Haitian immigrants obtain kidney dialysis from Bethesda Memorial Hospital in Boynton Beach. "This community is in desperate need of everything," Richardson said. "They don't get the proper care." The question has taken on urgency as the county's two leading charity providers threaten to close or discontinue programs for the poor. Bethesda Memorial Hospital has said it must stop providing doctors to the Health Department's prenatal care program in Delray Beach. The Health Department is paying $90 per hour for the service, but Bethesda's costs are $135 per hour, the hospital told health leaders. Plus, Bethesda's two satellite prenatal care clinics, one in Delray Beach and one in Lake Worth, have stopped taking new patients. A hospital spokesperson said the institution loses hundreds of dollars on every Medicaid patient who gives birth there. Meanwhile, Intracoastal Health Systems, parent company of Good Samaritan and St. Mary's medical centers in West Palm Beach, has said it must consolidate onto one campus. St. Mary's provided $22 million worth of charity care last year, the state reports. Bethesda provided $9 million and counting. Expanding hospitalization insurance would help hospitals' bottom line more than it would help undocumented immigrants, Porter said. "The hospitals are required to provide emergency services to anyone who presents themselves," Porter said. "The benefit is going to subsidize hospitals." Calculating the true number of people who might be affected has proven a daunting task, Gay said. Corinne Danielson, executive director of the Farmworker Coordinating Council in Lake Worth, has already tried. "People ask us that all the time, and there is really no way to count or keep track of them." Her group assists about 8,000 farm workers per year. Statewide, according to U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service data, Florida has about 350,000 illegal immigrants, just behind California, Texas and New York, said June Nogle, a demographer for the University of Florida's bureau of economic and business research. This is not the first time the Health Care District has considered the question. In 1995, the last time the district board discussed it, the members unofficially endorsed a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to pay for qualified immigrants' primary care visits to the Palm Beach County Health Department. But they stopped short of allowing undocumented immigrants to receive hospital benefits. Board member Harold Ostrow pushed for coverage. "They may be illegal residents, but if they work here, they pay taxes here. And if they pay taxes here, they should receive some services," he said. "If their house burns down, the fire department is not going to say, 'We won't put it out because you're not a legal immigrant.'" OK, if they are illegal residents, then how can they pay taxes? they dont have a social security number, right? how would they be able to pay taxes????

I can't believe Trace and Eri of all people would deny medical care to children, no matter the citizenship status of their families. Their youngest daughter only survived thanks to millions of dollars worth of hospital care. You'd think their pain at the time would have broadened their hearts a bit. Just a bit. It's sickening to read this "let 'em die if they're not real Americans" attitude here on my favourite site. So ugly.

the taxes that come out of their paychecks, spunky. a good portion of the illegals who get jobs here don't get clandestine "day labor" jobs where they're paid in cash (though many do). they go to places where employers actively hire illegals (i've worked at a place where the workforce was 75% illegal.) either that or they go someplace desperate enough for someone who'll work cheap. either way, these workers give fake ss numbers (there has always been a thriving fake ss card business) and are "on the books", which means they get paychecks just like everyone else out of which taxes are taken, like everyone else. a lot of revenue comes from taxed illegal aliens. they, of course, get no benefits. america makes a pretty good bit of pocket change out of los mojados.

No vegetables were harmed on this thread, and I am willing to mail any amount of presently frozen organic tomato sauce to anyone who lives in a cold climate. And I got a lot of zucchini left from last season too. So after I plant and hoe and weed for a while, I'm off to Texas, yes. I'm speaking in Dallas, (presenting a paper and moderating a panel or two at a conference), Droopy, and will be there the better part of Wed thru Sun 13th thru 16th unless I can be convinced to stay longer.

yeah. but nate, you appear to be against race profiling mostly because you're against affirmative action not because you have a problem with the drift net approach to law enforcement that stems from racial as well as class profiling. you state up front that you're opposed to both aspects so that you can point out your consistency when challenged and then you turn it around on your challenger, accusing them of inconsistency. in typical conservative fashion, you're all about working the advantages for yourself. if it happens those advantages also work to other people's advantage, well that just adds style points. if it doesn't, them's the breaks, stop whining and better luck next time(not). the funny part about you guys is that you whine the loudest when someone else works an advantage that diminishes your own advantage.

not really, dave. do you have any evidence of this?

"It's sickening to read this "let 'em die if they're not real Americans" attitude here on my favourite site. So ugly." ugly americans. and the rest of the world wonders why many of us are self loathing. The economy would tank if we deported everyone who was here illegally. what nate said..... "for the most part, illegals in california are hard working, family oriented and of stronger moral character than your average legal american." yeah...

Hey, Mr SSSS, I'm in Dallas too.

i finally read that article trace and saw your question. "OK, if they are illegal residents, then how can they pay taxes? they dont have a social security number, right? how would they be able to pay taxes????" sales tax trace. income tax isnt the only tax out there. the article made a great point that you should pay attention to: "If their house burns down, the fire department is not going to say, 'We won't put it out because you're not a legal immigrant.'" Moreover, i find reprehensible, that you guys, as self-proclaimed christians can take some of the views you take.

i'm sure there's evidence out there. i don't care enough to look for it. my critique or impression doesn't matter in the least. you just keep on doing what you're doing. it seems to be working.

if you don't want your taxes supposedly spent on helping illegal residents get health care, blame that fact that your health system is fucking scary and evil. I KNOW my taxes are doing that. Maybe one of them will get my kidneys when i die. Good for them. other than that, what Cat said. All of it.

Here is the thing. We are not against them getting health care. We are against our tax dollars being used for it. We want them to be legal immigrants and get insurance the same as we do. It isn't that they shouldn't get the medical attention, it is that they should do it legally and do things the same way that we have to rather than spending our tax dollars give them something we have to work for. What it boils down to is that we want them to be here legally and we want them to have to follow the same rules we have to follow. We want illegal immigrants to become legal and we want them to have to do things here the same way we have to. The issue is handouts to "illegal" immigrants. Not neccesarily help to legal immigrants. The issue is not following the laws we have to follow and then people complaining because they are being deported. I am not for the racial profiling of this man. I think that we did wrongly in that, but I also don't understand a lot of things regarding foreign policy (like that isn't obvious). I also believe that he broke the law and this is his punishment for breaking the law. No, our legal system isn't by any stretch of the imagination perfect (after all my sister only served 8 days for what she did to her son, when she should have had much worse). My ex-husband can get 11 DUI's but since they were committed in 3 different states and he only took out overpasses, yet never killed anyone (thank God for that miracle) he only serves 2 years. All I am trying to say is that there needs to be more accountability, and this man being deported is his being made accountable. How we hold others accountable for racial profiling is different. I don't have an answer to that one yet, but I am working on it. I think accountability should be enforced across the board for all reasonable laws (not being barefoot in Texas or refusing to shoot off a gun at the intersections in downtown Kansas City). Yes, I also think the government should be accountable for their actions. Defining right from wrong can sometimes get confusing, but we know that every politician has done something. I don't want my words to be misunderstood. It is accountablity and legality that I am talking about. I don't want to debate which crime was worse. Only the ones committing the bigger crime get punished. All committing the crimes should be punished.

"give them something we have to work for." how exactly did you "work" at becoming a citizen? How exactly do you "work" at getting the healthcare you have? I assume, since Trace works for the gov., you get whatever health plan they offer. Other than marrying trace, how have you worked for such a benefit? "The issue is handouts to "illegal immigrants" its not a matter of "handouts" Thats the Rush Limbaugh in you talking. What you deem a handout, could be a lifesaver for someone. Every human, regardless of nationality, deserves acccess to the best medical care possible. Its completely fucking irrelavent, where an illegal alien mother-to-be is from or why she is here when she needs prenatal. Illegal immigrants are a huge part of this country's history, economy and culture whether you like it or not. being able to give them healthcare, to better provide formthemselves, and their families is ultimately a benefit to us all. We're all in the pot together. What do you think the costs are to the state for people without healthcare? To be honest I have no idea, but Im willing to bet the costs to the state for those without health care is a bigger burden than providing health care.

"how exactly did you "work" at becoming a citizen?" I did not say anything about working to be a citizen. I was talking about giving illegal immigrants something that we have to work at our jobs for. Let them become legal citizens, and get jobs with benefits, and then get the same health care the same way. I do think that health care should be free to the world, but that isn't the world we live in. If I am a citizen and I have to work to receive benefits, then the rest should have to be legal citizens and work to get their benefits just the same. "What do you think the costs are to the state for people without healthcare? To be honest I have no idea, but Im willing to bet the costs to the state for those without health care is a bigger burden than providing health care." I do agree on this point. But the government isn't providing free health care to everyone, only those illegal immigrants in certain states or those who meet certain low income requirements. If insurance were free to all, then this wouldn't be the issue, but this is not the case in our country. Would be nice, but is not our reality. We have to work for it and pay for it. So should they. I am not saying that they don't work. They do, but if they did things legally and health care was more readily available to employers of small businesses, then my tax dollars wouldn't help people who are here illegally. I am all for helping people who need it to better their lives until they can do so for themselves, but I do think if my tax dollars pay for it than they should be here legally.

yep, I know Mr. Antigone, and I am looking forward to meeting some of you texasorabjites...email me and may be can discuss particulars.

just think, if we didn't stop stealing their land at the rio grande, they'd have health care.

no they wouldn't. well, not unless they unionized. i offered to cook dinner for daniel if he makes it down to austin. i'll have to think up a relatively impressive recipe or two.

"What do you think the costs are for the state for people without health care?" That's easy. It's called Medicade. That's how the low income and illeagle alliens get their health care. That and free clinics. But, most free clinics are not provided by the state. They are charitable organizations. Illeagle alliens should be deported. We have enought people leagally in this country right now who need assistance and are not getting it.

why should someone who has lived here all their lives need assistance? maybe, 'wise choices' should be taught in school anyway, who else is gonna help those poor eagles?

"Illeagle alliens should be deported" who is going to clean up your shit? who is going to pick your lettuce?

i can name at least two businesses in texas (one of which is my uncle's utility company) that might not've gotten started had it not been for the illegal manpower. and i get the distinct impression that lawn maintenance in this state would only be done in the summer by half-ass high school students were it not for you-know-who.

Who do you think picks ALL the crops in teh midwest? Seriously. Even the cranberry bogs in Ass of Nowhere, Wisconsin. This country was founded by illegal immigrants, pilgrim.

yay. somebody started up this thread again. i got the courier running again. it's been sitting for over a year. and i mowed the lawn. daylight savings time and a warm, sunny evening. feeling pretty good. until. . . despair.

Like I said I hire them too,now my simple garden plan has turned into a walkway and a storage shed,that from how the old man tells me you could live in.Anyway this has been going on for weeks,those guys work their asses off,and we treat them better than most,we treat them as we would want to be treated,remember,I was humbled by being a janitor.On the other side of the coin,we are being sued by the illegal's that Heather hit in her car accident last August,they had no license or insurance,and because Heather was on our policy,after our insurance pays their cap,they can come after us.Technically they shouldn't have been driving in this state.What we need is some kind of documentation a little bit stronger than a green card,so that they can get a drivers license and insurance,etc.

hey watcher.....before you start spouting bullshit like "deport all them dad bern illegal aliens (i.e. Mexicans)" Just do something for me, next time you eat any fruit or vegetable...say this to yourself: "god is great, god is good, thank you migrant worker for this food" assmonkey

The majority of in home care providers are immigrants, and many of them are illegal. Since our population is aging and no one else (other than insane people like me) is willing to provide in home care, people need illegal immigrants to provide care for the elderly. How would you propose to deal with this problem, watcher?

deport the elderly

well i'm glad we're all in support of having the people who weren't born here do our shit work for very little compensation

thats a whole seperate issue heather.

welcome to America....no wonder everyone loves us

ok, then well i'm glad we're all in support of illegal aliens, as long as they do our shit work for very little compensation it's not really a separate issue, especially as everyone appears to know about it i think about this in relation to punk, that bucking the system is for those who have already benefited from it

elephants hate us 83.741% want to kill us

Not everywhere is lacking for in home health care workers. I've done it for friends (to cover for them while they were on a vacation) and many of my friends still do it. Make decent money, but not too much. I have been offered several jobs doing in home health care while we were in Kansas City. Anywhere for $7-12 per hour to start. Depends on whether you do private duty yourself or whether you go through an agency. Didn't meet a single illegal immigrant while doing it either. Lots of hard working Americans loving what they are doing, because even though you clean up shit (which is done for free by parents) you get to know wonderful people. At the end of the day you have helped someone who needed you.

you stink i'm in support of illegal aliens getting the benefits of our society because they do our shit work for very little compensation.

Im against deportation of "illegals", based upon xenophobia. I support "illegals" pursuits of a better way of life here in America, whether they have done their paper work or not. I support and recognize the valuable role they play in our economy. don't be sensational heather. "i'm glad we're all in support of illegal aliens, as long as they do our shit work for very little compensation" the part that is sensational is the "as long as" no one has implied this.

if 'america' were in support of illegal aliens, we would allow them to have equal rights and become citizens if we just didn't want to let unskilled peoples into our economy, we wouldn't allow them in the country we support them like indentured servants america has implied this tu pu

"Not everywhere is lacking for in home health care workers." Bah. They are terribly underpaid for the kind of work they do. They barely make minimum wage here in SoCal. There is a petition out now to get a measure on the ballot to change that. $7-12/hour is crap for such, potentially vile work.

well you said "we", Im glad that "we're all in support..." no. no. no. no. no.

uhhh... i didn't know that eri was trace's wife. this all makes sense to me now. fucking kansas.

They're not in Kansas anymore. They're in Texas now.

I thought they were in MO, although "We're not in Missouri anymore" just doesn't have the same ring. BTW, best peanuts in the world: www.thepeanutshop.com from Williamsburg, VA. Get the extra large premium homestyle. You'll be glad you did.

we camped out in a VW bus in the Bush Gardens' (Williamsburg) parking lot overnight, smoked lots of dope and rode some rides.

We're not in Missouri anymore, though there are still family in Missouri and Kansas. Spunky and I have been married for 5 years now. I wanna camp out in a VW bus. Hell, I just want a VW bus!!!!!!

Speaking as someone who actually "earns a living" being an inhome care provider, I can tell you it's shit work. You do things for people who can't do them. Fine, great, whatever. You also get paid very close to minimum wage. Most of us aren't properly certified to provide care (in the form of injections, urinary cath upkeep, etc), and most of us don't get days off. It's a 7 day a week job. For many of us it's also 24 hours--you have to be on call at all times to administer medication, etc. Quite frankly, most Americans aren't willing to do this work. When I was in Sacramento with the union negotiating for higher pay (for refrence, Patrick, they wanted to cut off all state funding to in-home care providers and let the county bear the brunt of it, which would have meant a severe wage decrease/layoff), most of the people travelling with us were Hispanic. Some of them, although this wasn't discussed, were also illegal. In states like California where that labour is readily available and cheap, it's everywhere. It also makes me really ashamed, but that's another matter.

I do agree that it is a shit job. So is being a homemaker. When I did the in home health care, the poor woman's son (who she lived with) just was admitted to a hospital for a major tumor they found on his back. She stayed at my house 24/7. I made $100 for 48 hours work, but I didn't have to deal with caths or anything like that. My friend (who was a primary in home caregiver, I was just covering cuz she had to work at the hospital that weekend) had her 24/7 for the next 4 months (the poor woman's son died of cancer and then it took 2 months to get her moved to her grandkids place). She got paid the same wages based on salary and not 24 hours a day, and 2 weeks severance pay. So for 4 months Maria was living in her home and she got paid $12 per hour, 8 hours a day. On top of that, she had to pay someone to come to her house and take care of Maria while she was at school (she went to nursing school at night 2 nights a week). She did get ripped off. I had several other friends who did in home health care. They worked agency and went home to home during the day. The fact that they provided health care to anyone astounds me. After work they would get together get stoned and talk shit about the people they were taking care of. Then they would got to sleep and do it again the next day. They were your typical cheap trailer park residents. The thought of them with needles scares me to this day. I can tell you that of the people who I know who did in home health care, only one had any medical background, and that because she was a nursing student, and she didn't go to nursing school until she had been doing in home care of about 3 years, so she did it for 3 years without any medical training. It is a shit job and underpaid, that I do agree with. It is just that in areas like Kansas City where hicks run wild, it is the freaky hicks that do the in home care and there isn't a lack of them, there is just a lack of quality in home health care workers.

You know what's great about Texas leading the nation in executions? Less Texans. (apologies to Carlin)

Eri, for $100 for 48 hours worth of work, you made $2.08 an hour. Platy are you in the union? I've read that in Sacramento and elsewhere in CA they are better paid. Here in the LA area, they are paid as low as $6.00/hour. I signed the petition to have this on the ballot. The City Board of Supervisors recently caught massive hell for secretly trying to keep this measure off the ballot, they got caught, assuring it will hit the ballot and pass. Everyone but the city and county gov't seems to think these workers deserve better.

I would like to see insurance companies pay for at least part of in home care for the elderly. I have lost jobs because the wife had arthritis and alzheimers and the insurance wouldn't cover any payment, and they couldn't afford to pay much, living on social security and a little bit of retirement. It is sad. I mean, they work hard, do the best they can, and illness that came made it so that they needed help, but couldn't get it because they couldn't afford it. For those of you who wonder why I didn't help this couple anyways, I have two reasons. 1. I know their story, but I don't know them. They cancelled the interview at the last minute because of the money. I would be some stranger walking up and saying, "Hi, you don't know me, but I am here to take care of your wife so that you can have a break. What's for lunch?" 2. Money. I couldn't afford to put my children in child care if I am not making any money. No, I didn't get paid jack for taking care of Maria, but it was a favor that I did for my best friend, so that she could go to her clinicals. This was sprang on her at the last minute and she was working so hard to get thru nursing school and missing this would delay her graduation and mess up her grades. I couldn't let that happen to her because Maria's son was in the hospital dying and no one was here to care for her. I would have done it for free.

I am union--all the IHSS people up here are, and our union is pretty strong (SEIU, for those who care). In home caregiving is one of the most thankless, depressing, miserable jobs I've ever had. I'm all about waiting tables at this point--I would earn more money.

the problem is, who will pay for the bill. we cannot afford to pay all the medical needs of the elderly. almost all elderly persons with assetes do not want to part with it. families want to hide granny's money because, "they worked their whole life for it" or "i want to leave my kids something". young working parents are not given free medical, 24 hour care, etc. for their dependents. i have worked healthcare for years. i have also worked as a "Medicare Co-ordinator". my job was to figure out a way to get maximum benefits for elderly patients while also allowing them to pay as little of their bill. quite frankly i would feel better selling drugs to school kids. getting old and having health concerns/bills is part of life, plan for it, quit expecting a free ride. you get what you pay for.

In all of my life I have only met one elderly person with a savings acount that actually had money in it. My grandmother. She didn't need in-home care. What she couldn't do was minor and I always did it for her. In Kansas City, share-a-fare, which is a service that helps the elderly get a ride to the doctor's office or the grocery store or whatever, because they don't or can't drive was a joke. It was $30 each way. In California they had A.D.A. for seniors and disabled and it was $2 each way. Some things you can't plan for. No one can know in advance if they are going to need hospice care, which is only paid in certain areas. You can't predict with accuracy how you are going to die. There are hardworking people who simply don't have the money to pay someone to come into their home and give them the help they need. Forgive me for saying so, but I think that we pay lots in taxes for medicare and it should be there to help the elderly, and if they need help in the home then they should get it, without having to worry about putting food on the table next week. On the unable to save to predict the future topic, I also knew an elderly man who had a ranch close to my parents. The man lived so long that his retirement and his social security both ran out and all he had to live on was the money he had stashed in jars around his dumpy little house. (I found out about this when I learned that my ex had broken into his house and stolen some of it). He outlived all of his family. When he gets sick, who is supposed to put him in a nursing home knowing that all the money that is left is a couple of grand floating around his home in jars. That wouldn't even pay for the first month at the home. Saying we can't give them a free ride, when they get to an age where they can't take care of themselves (financially) anymore and they can't go out and work, just seems unfair. Kids not wanting to part with Mom or Dad's money to take care of them, because they would be losing out on some inheritance is also wrong. So where is the common ground?

obviously you don't pay enough if you did, old people would be taken care of [point being that no one could pay enough] when you have nothing left is the time that medicare pays for you to be in a nursing home. like fb said, that's why people liquidate their parent's assests and 'borrow' them, so they don't have to pay for years of care. my parents actually apologized to me because they were using my grandmother's own money to take care of her. i told them that it was her money and she should have everything she wants or needs and i'm not entitled to it. but they said it again at the end. people in my family all seem to live past 95. i better start planning. my papa worked at chrysler when he left scotland, and he was already at least 40. if he worked for there 25 years [and i don't think he did] that means he was retired for 30 years. 5 years longer than he worked, and he got retirement and benefits the whole time. that seems crazy to me.

i have seen more elderly claim poverty by their bank statement than i can stand. they may have 300 dollars in the bank but have alot of equity in their house, car, antiques etc. they refuse to sell the 4 bedroom house and get something smaller, cheaper to heat and maintain. why? "because i raised my family in this house and it has too many memories" well guess what?! us younger people struggle to buy insurance, pay doctor bills, raise the next generation of tax payers and if lucky....save enough for a down payment. your example of the man on the ranch-sell the ranch or starve. getting old, not being able to work are facts of life if you live long enough. the money paid into the medicare system doesn't come close to what is spent. i've seen people who i know from the community who rarely went to the doctor because they didn't want to spend their money on health care. they would suffer through an illness and get by. when they became eligible for some free healthcare it was a whole different story. they go to the doctor every time they blink or sneeze, wanting every test and procedure because it is suddlenly "OWED" to them. i have watched them burn thru enough government money in one week that could have been used to immunize 100 kids and provide wellness care for their entire school year. common ground? you pay your way until absolutely broke, then we provide reasonable health care. no more liver transplants to the convicted murderer, no more heart-lung transplant to the 89 yr old who dies post-op.

Man, this thread takes for ever to load. Comments?

that only shows that our experiences are different. My grandmother sold her 2 bedroom mobile home when she moved to Kansas City and spent a lot more renting a crappy apartment. She didn't have equity, and she didn't live extravagantly. She didn't go to the doctor unless she needed it. I was the one who took her. She suffered through minor illnesses until they went away and didn't have surgery unless it was necessary. In fact, she was begging me not to take her to the hospital for the hernia surgery, but I forced her to go and she had complications and died in the hospital three weeks later. Not everyone is out to suck the system dry. Not everyone wants to take advantage of what is out there. We were brought up not to. The system is for help when you need it, but if you can do it yourself, that is your job, to do it yourself. It is hard when you see people who do everything in their power to provide for themselves and they need help but can't get it.

It seems to me our goverment is almost punishing people when they get old,the money they have to spend just on medications alone is a pity,my mothers had a health plan,but she had to pay co-pays on almost everything,she was doing so well till she went to that nursing home,it was covered on her insurance and I saw what a hell hole that was,not enough staff,much less TRAINED staff,as I've said I thought my mother was getting better,who do I blame for not telling me what was wrong with her?

the government isn't making people old and sickly the idea that people feel that the government should take care of them is the strange part

thank you, well put....

Because a certain Beaver explained to me about the goverment cuts in health care,and I figure these old sickly people paid their taxes. My husband has a good insurance plan the most any medications I get will only cost me $7.00,but after you retire and have to pay for your own insurance,that's when it gets ugly.

My grandmother paid for her own insurance and it didn't cover prescriptions so for her heart medications alone she had to pay $283 per month. Not to mention her arthritis medication, her blood pressure medication, her pain medication (because she had some severe arthritis that was inoperable, they can't do elbow replacements) her calcium, her sleeping pills, her anti-depressants. I figure that they did pay their taxes and her care maybe should not be free but at least affordable. They paid their medicare taxes for 60 years (actually a little longer than that but I am not sure exactly so I just rounded down) and in the end they had to pay for medicare supplemental insurance and still had to pay an average of $700 per month in prescriptions for one person only.

did they pay $700 a month in medicare? i doubt it do you want to pay $700 per month to cover the prescriptions of everyone over 60? you don't pay taxes so that the government will take care of you when you retire, that's ridiculous WE pay taxes that go toward THEIR care. they don't get saved up and wait around for you to get old, there will be nothing when we get to that age. better start saving up for your own care or perhaps, 'skydiving for seniors' maybe people should raise better kids

Sometimes, kids don't have the money, either. And it was $700 for her prescriptions. I have insurance where I only have to pay a co-pay. She had medicare and supplemental insurance, but still had to pay $700 for what would cost you no more than $50 in co-pays. Just because I didn't have the money to buy her prescriptions for her does not mean that I failed her. It isn't a matter of being a better kid. And I resent the implication that how much you pay for your elderly family members care decides how good of a kid you are. I TOOK CARE OF HER. I DID IT ALL, except paying for her prescriptions which I couldn't afford. And in the end I HELD HER HAND, while she died, singing her favorite songs to her.

Um... Any company you work for today WILL NOT COVER YOU after you retire. Wanna know why? Because you are elible for medicare. Either foot the entire monthly charge for commercial coverage or go on medicare, or medicare with a supplement.

hey there eri, i wasn't saying you were a bad kid and i wasn't talking about kids paying out in cash for their parents, most can't and shouldn't need to i was talking about all the people who are mean to everyone and end up bitching when no one wants to take care of them in the end or hold their hand i didn't mean for you to think i was talking about you

there is no clear easy answer, which means everyone gets screwed. the problem is too complex for the government to fix. i might sound cynical but i know what i've seen.....which is why i am enjoying my hiatus from work!!!!

There is an individual responsibility for people to keep tabs on adult care homes where their loved ones live. But society must step in for the many elderly residents who have no family to look out for them. This is the proper role of the goverment: to ensure that it's citizens live in conditions of basic sanitation and safety.Not to stand by while old people are neglected in poorly regulated facilities.

I understand that you weren't taking about me directly. The thing is that if my grandmother had lived 3 years longer it would have been her in that situation. Her retirement was about to run out and then it would have only been social security and she wouldn't have had enough money to continue to pay her rent and bills, let alone her medical expenses. We looked into getting long term care insurance for her to help her out and get her in a livable home where she wouldn't be covered in bed sores all of the time. The thing was, even though the extra insurance would have only cost us $55 a month, the cheapest home was $6,000 a month and even with the insurance we still would have been $3,000 short each month and her social security would have only covered $950 of it. That doesn't include her medicine or nursing. Any way you look at it, no one had the money to make sure she was taken care of when she ran out of retirement, and her savings would have only bought her 1 month in a nursing home and then we would have to come up with her funeral costs (which exceeded $8,000 in spite of the fact that she already had her plot and her headstone and we didn't do anything even remotely fancy, the church was free, the singer was free, the pianist was free). They spent their whole life working and taking care of family and holding down as many as 4 jobs at a time per person, they paid their taxes, and their credit cards and did everything by the book, they didn't drink or do anything like that. In the end, they would have not had a place to go and a roof over their head or any way to get the medical care they needed, when it is our job to take care of them. As a society I think we are failing them as well as our government.

then i say they're lucky to have lived in a country that allowed the things they spent their lives doing and are also lucky to get any help they might get in worse circumstances many people in the world work harder than most people in the united states- for less return, and there is no extended care for the elderly even if they could afford it it is my understanding that elderly people requiring medical/financial help are allowed to keep their main home but must spend any other assets on their own care, whether it lasts a week or years. when that runs out, any social security or whatever goes directly toward their care but then the rest is covered, even full-time nursing home care [and yes, i've seen what places that kind of care must entail] but man, it's basically free. what else could you ask for? the role of government would be to regulate facilities, not take care of people [which i would argue might be the proper role of society] in my opinion, any assistance is a bonus.

try this for health....... http://www.d-zyn.com/gresmedical/

damn, i just noticed yesterday was the 13th. yesterday sucked. wife went into work to find her favorite uncle there dying of cancer. (he's kept it a secret) then one of her patients turns out to be her best friends dad. he had a massive stroke and is vegetative meanwhile another one of her patients died totally unexpectedly. she held it together until she got home then cried HARD. i got her calmed down and then my daughter says,"dad i think the guniea pig is dying" i looked in the cage and sure enough Pierce was struggling to breath. i picked her up and held her. she was suffering so much that i handed the gun safe keys to my son and asked him to bring me a pistol. Pierce died before he returned. we got Pierce 2 weeks ago. we went to buy a pair of kangaroo rats but saw this guniea pig hiding in the corner of the pet shop cage with a hole in her back. the hole was thru all tissue layers to the facia and muscle. we felt so bad for her we bought her and took her to the vet and actually had the hole 90% healed. she was running around, seemed very happy and singing her "phweet phweet" song. now dead. what next!?

"many people in the world work harder than most people in the united states- for less return" its well established (don't ask me where) Americans work harder and longer on a day to day basis than most in the world. I've heard this repeatedly, from various sources. Perhaps they are speaking only of modernized cultures.