Question..... On another BBS, a 39 year old man showed a picture of this 20 year old girl he is screwing. I questioned his integrity...as a 39 year old man, who, what i termed "preyed" on such young women. Women who technically arent allowed to drink, according to the law muchless make wise decisions about sex and dating. Remember when you were 18, 19, 20? Yes the law says you can screw anybody you want. Im not questioning the law. But we all know the law isnt always right. We (try) pride ourselves, as Americans as not being dictators of morality...so Im not advocate any change in law. Im questioning the integrity of the older party. Women (or men) 18, 19, 20, 21 are not mature, socially, economically, mentally in my mind. Sure you are developed fine physically, but does such an older person have any business having sex withone someone half their age? I was surprised at the response i got. Many people felt this was ok. Of course the question of, where do you draw the line, was posed, and naturally I dont have an answer. Its really a judgement call. I can tell you that, as a 26, almsot 27 year old male, if i werent married....I most likely wouldnt dare get near a 20, 21 year old girl. Even though, now we would only be 5-7 years apart....the distance seems so vast. Maybe I grew up quick....and I have standards I suppose. I know a lot of guys who would stick it to an 18 year simply because they can, legally. Of there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. In this regard...id probably drown in the singles scene. Id love your thoughts on the matter. How would you feel? Are men or women (but lets face it, not many 40 year old women are sticking it to 18 year old boys) morally corrupt by taking advantage in this situation? Is it taking advantage? Is it a power play? Considering money can be a tacit factory is it about power?

i would add.....a 30 year old dating a 60 year old....in my mind, seems ok. Eccentric, but ok. the dynamics are not the same.

Goddamn it Patrick. First you call me an aged hipster, then you accuse me of sticking it to 18 year olds. As I recall, I was the stickee.

well... i've had a boyfriend who was 25. and i'm only 19. i think it's okay, but it really depends on the people involved. i am one of the absolute youngest in my group of friends (i might have one or two friends who are younger... but most are in their early to mid twenties.) i wouldn't go out with someone simply because of age. and patrick, i do believe in many cases it can be a bad thing, but if the people you seem to connect with best are a few years older, naturally your partners will be too. it is not a matter of age, but a matter of maturity. 39 yo bragging about who he's screwing? not mature.

My parents have quite an age difference between them. 7 years. It is readily apparent as they get older. It wasn't as much of a big deal when they were younger because my father was very naive and inexperienced with women, period. My mother, well I can't say the same for her. I didn't have a problem dating older men in my 20's but never an age difference of 20 years. I was also a single mom at age 20, which changes things a bit, because I had all of the responsibilities on my shoulder. My ex was in prison (gets out sometime this month). I do not though, think that any 39 year old has any business with a 20 year old. I don't think that even as a single working mom with all of the resposibility I had, I was mature enough for a relationship with someone that old. I couldn't have done it successfully and it would have been based on sex, which isn't a solid foundation for any relationship. This is just my opinion. Take it for what you want.

i dunno, patrick. you think about an 18 year old boy with an older woman, it doesn't have the same bit to it, does it? do you really think it is because of infrequency? i don't think women need to be protected. making mistakes is how we become rounded people. that, donuts and beer.

It just seems wrong to me either way. If it is a 18 year old guy with a 40 year old woman (ewwww) it still seems to me that it would be based on the same thing and is just as wrong. I don't think it is about people needing protection, male of female, I think it is about nothing but sex.

if it is nothing but sex, why is it wrong? what's wrong with sex?

as a 17 yr old in high school, i was simultaneously dating a HOT 15 year old and a really cool 21 year old. i felt much affection for both of them, for different reasons. I also had a relationship with 2 much "older" (a 26 yr old and a 28 yr old) women who, for me, were mostly a conduit for booze and drugs. the only real reason i can see for a 39 year old man and a 20 year old woman being together is that she's hot and he's loaded. i think very few 39 year old men would tolerate a 20 year old lifestyle and vice versa if the looks and the cash were taken out of the picture. either way, they should both go for it. experience is the only path to wisdom.

Do you know how depressing it is to be suddenly single at 26? Actually thats not true, its not super depressing - but MAN where has all the talent* gone? *present company excluded

i'm middle aged & am often seen in the company of people much younger than myself...& their actions toward me aren't always platonic in nature. i don't feel embarrassed or weirded out by it in any way. i find it flattering. if a 20-year-old finds me attractive, i just deal w/ it on a case-by-case basis. is the person nice? intelligent? men my age often have very different interests than i do. they're usually wound up w/ kids, keeping up w/ the joneses, the whole typical package that seems hard for me to relate to. i'm not saying their interests are necessarily wrong, but just hard for me to get into, personally. meanwhile, if some sweet kid comes slinking up & bites my neck, i'm not going to work myself up into a self-righteous frenzy about it. i'm going to bite back.

I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with an age difference that large, per se, but it's less than ideal. Unless there are other skanky things going on, like her calling him daddy or something. That's gross.

I like skanky things. I've been with women 10 years older than me and women 10 years younger than me....whenever I get a new girlfriend my Dad will ask me, "so! How old is THIS one?" I think he gets a bent kick out of the age range I go with....which I personally think is stupid. I just don't hold any prejudices as far as age goes. I'm 39 and I have no problem being involved with girls in their 20s. I just don't accept bogus rules and standards and I don't let them run my life. Why limit yourself? You could be cheating yourself out of something rewarding. You could learn from someone younger or older than yourself, and worst to worst you get a great fuck out of the deal---fuck predisposed ideas----just go with it.

When I was 16,I was going out with a guy that was 26 and I had no problem with that,but looking back now he should have had a problem with it as I was certified jail bait. I have posted about how I was out of my mind when Heather,who was 21 at the time started shacking up with a 39 year old man,I still hate him and I'm just so glad she left him.He knew her from the school I sent her for her learning disabilities,he was the music teacher there.He's the one that got her on drugs and the "buisness" that she was into not so long ago.Thank God he got fired.

when i was 14, i was screwing middle-aged men. i'm not saying that's right. in fact, in retrospect, i look at those guys in a rather dim light today...even though the action was consensual in most cases. that's because to me, as an adult now, i couldn't imagine getting aroused over a 14-year-old. i just couldn't. i wonder about the mental state of someone who could. i mean, some of these guys were in their 50s, y'know? but a person who's 18+, to me, is a whole different ball game. i don't know what the difference is, but it's there. i had a much clearer idea of what i wanted at 18 than 13. anyway, i tend to find myself in the company of people 20+. most guys my age, around here, tend to be serious rednecks or suburban zombie types, not my cup of tea. but i can also swing in the other direction...i've made it w/ MUCH older men & don't have a problem w/ that, either. weird, though...my marriage is one of the very few cases where i actually ended up w/ someone reasonably close to my own age.

dang shelia thats funny. im not referring to someone 18,19 dating a 24, 26 year old. i was 19 and started schtooping my wife, she was 23. and of course nate...when i was 18, i would have hopped in the sack with a hottie 35, 40 year old hands down. Again, which is why I would look to the older person in the scenario. and 18, 19 year old male or female aint in their right mind. judgement. and yes there does become a point in which we have to let youngsters make their own mistakes. i just felt like witch hunting that pathetic 40 year old stickin it to a 20 year old. i still maintain the tables are a little turned, simply due to economic, social and mental immaturity on the part of the youngins. But i guess most relationships are a power arrangement one way or another, arent they? I still gave the guy shit. My take was, he wasnt interesting enough to any of his peers, contemporaries....his mercedes, fat wine collection and gram of blow he keeps in his glove box aren't enough to impress anyone his own age, so he has to dazzle doe-eyed yins to get laid. which, to me, is sad.

did i call you an aged hipster sheila or did i just quote lenny bruce? i cant imagine id be that callous.

I was going to make a point on this, but then realized i couldn't, so I'm not.

If he's got a Mercedes, a fat wine collection and some blow, he SHOULD be able to impress people his own age. Let's face it---most people of ANY age are that dumb.

yeah you would think man...

That wouldn't impress me. But if he had slight whisker stubble on his chin that was going grey, that would.

so you dig the pappy/sean connery/professor kinda thing?

Not that old, but, uh, yeah. But I would still think anyone that age (40-ish) who liked me had some kind of social problem that kept him from pursuing women his own age. I may like it but I don't want it, you know?

you're a strange, yet familiar bird spidey

Thanks, I think. I'm remembering there was a professor I had a crush on that turned out to be 57 (but he looked 10 years younger). That's the oldest person I've been attracted to. FWIW, I was 21 when I was his student.

I have to agree with pug. Were I single, I would be impressed by a nice car, wine of the month club, etc. I would see them as a sign of success, and therefore find them attractive. Or at least find their apparent "success" attractive. I don't necessarily look for the ones who are already attractive, though. I liked the ones that had the potential to be successful. Those who had the drive, and wanted to gain the knowledge. That is one reason why I chose my husband. The car the wine, and all of the other things would be signs of success and therefore, I would give the guy a second glance. The oldest guy I was attracted to was my old boss. I never dated him because he was my boss. He was 10 years 1 month and 4 days older than me. As you can tell, we were very good friends. We knew each other very well. I was never really disappointed that we never had anything else, but I was glad I was able to have a good friendship with him and we got to know each other well. We were able to pick each others brains, and share the things we rarely share with others (I actually let him read my poetry) and support each other. When I worked I was most successful with him behind me backing me up. He was a very important part of my life at that point, and he was absolutely wonderful. Yes, I was attracted to him, but in the end, we were friends and that was all. I am grateful that things turned out the same way that they did. I have great memories of a good friend. I do not have remorse of a relationship I was not old enough to understand. Over all, things are not always what they appear, and things that are important change with age and knowledge. An age difference of 20 years (2 generations) has too many discrepancies in knowledge and experience. They can make the relationship immoral.

i always just laughed at guys who tried to impress me w/ material possessions...especially cars. it's a freakin' CAR. as long as it runs, who cares? i never understood the whole car fascination. i knew this girl who wouldn't date any man who drove an inferior model of car. she's probably still sitting there in her trailer, waiting for prince charming to pull up in his lamborghini. the more guys try to impress me w/ stuff like that, the more i tend to think they're a total jackass. i don't care if a man is a street sweeper or a millionaire, as long as he shows signs of intellect. that's how to impress me. intelligence. the other stuff is just window dressing. but then again, you could argue that a man who's truly intelligent wouldn't end up as a street sweeper in the first damn place.

My husband is 7 years older than I am. We started dating 3 days after I turned 18 (he was 25) and two years later we got married. We'd known each ohter as friends since I was 9 and he was 16 (he worked at my Grandfather's restaurant so he kind of had to be nice to me and humor me when I hung around all the time). When I turned 16 is when he noticed that I was not a little girl anymore and his interest in me changed. He pursued me for two years until I decided that I would date him (I wanted to make sure that it was legal, just in case). It's been two years since we got married, and yeah, it's still the beginning, but I'm with him for life and vice versa. Of course, I wasn't the average 18 year old then, and I'm not the average 22 year old now. I've always been a lot more mature than most people my age (and I'm sure that has a lot to do with my hellish childhood). I'm not saying that we never had any problems, there are always going to be problems, age difference or not. All I'm saying is, if there is love then there isn't anything wrong with it. Or even if it's just for sex, if both parties are okay with that and completely aware that it is just for sex, then who cares? I personally think that it's kind of gross to have sex with someone that could be your mom/dad, but to each their own. I would like to think that love conquers all, so age wouldn't matter, but then again, just b/c people have sex with each other it doesn't mean they love each other. If the older person is leading the younger person to believe that they're with them out of love, but that is truly not the case, then that is sick and wrong b/c young people's hearts are a lot more naive than a heart that's weathered a few relationships. And don't most people who get into relationships with someone who is older usually want someone more trustworthy or something like that? I think I am babbling now, but I haven't slept in a while so I don't think my brain is functioning properly. I'll come back tomorrow and see if it's working then.

My Dad was 9 years older than my mom.but it kind of showed.

My Golden Rule is: Never have sex w/anyone older than yr parents or younger than yr kids. Pooeple always say "Age is just a number." But when you strip away all the rationalizations/once you get past a 10-yr-age difference involving someone under 30/I really do think it's mostly abt the sex. The difference btwn a 20-yr-old dating a 30-yr-old is too big a stretch. But a 30-yr-old & a 40-yr-old cd work/becuz the common ground is a basic level of maturity & experience. Older men trade their $$ & worldliness to get up-close-&-personal w/youth & beauty. When you've already got the fat crib/the fly car/the corner office & plenty of disposable income/what's left to acquire but a young, pretty girlfriend? Esp. older men w/substantial cash who were dorks in their 20's & cdn't get the hotties. Think abt it -- Warren Beatty didn't get married til he was approaching 50. And Annette Benning is definitely younger/but not young enuf to be his daughter. She's cute but far from gorgeous. But she's smart as a whip & really funny. Btwn the ages of 25-45/Beatty dated the best-looking women in Hollwyood/so he'd been thru his bimbo phase. (I think his Madonna liasion was the official end of that era. Altho she had more $$ than he ever will.) A for-real grown-up woman closer to their age knows as much if not more than a 40 or 50-yr- old man does. A peer has lived thru the same social changes/so it's harder for him to lie or exaggerate abt what he did in his salad days. A woman his own age will have read most of the great literature he's read/so she won't be impressed by him quoting Proust or Shakespeare of Hemmingway. And unless she's just a wage slave (like me/but even I've been out of the country a couple of times) she's prolly traveled a bit/so whisking her off to Mexico or the Carribean on holiday isn't anything close to a dream vacation -- she's been there & done that. The flip side is true too. What on earth wd a 40- yr-old female be able to enjoy w/a 25-yr-old guy/except sex? He prolly won't share her tastes in music or leisure activities. Or clothes. I don't care how attractive a 40 or 50-something woman might be/there is *nothing* more insufferably stupid than an old broad who insists in dressing in whatever the 20-yr-olds of the moment are wearing. I'm no fashion plate/but jeans & a t-shirt are as 'hip' as my casual wardrobe gets. (And not those falling-off-yr-ass- too-big jeans. Or those awful below-the-navel low riders that slide off every time you sit down.) Tina Turner can get away w/it. An Goldie Hawn -- sometimes. But those 2 are pretty much the only names on the list. Cher needs to pack away those cut-out dresses & leather mini skirts once & for all! Frankly/when it gets down down to the nitty gritty/I've never understood why a 25-yr-old wd *want* to bed down w/a 45 yr-old-female. No matter how fit & firm she is/the texture & resilience of an older woman's skin is different -- regardless of how many breast lifts or tummy tucks she's had. And his friends will give him *so* much shit if he's seen out in public w/her. But y'know/that's just me.

Even five years can be a huge gap, when it comes to having reference points in common, culturally. Try arguing with someone over why it's more appropriate to call teh heavy-metal hand sign the "Hand of Rock" rather than calling it a "whitesnake" because that crappy band never even used the Hand of Rock. But I digress. So, anyway, when I've dated girls (ok, a girl) that was about fie years younger than me, it just seemed like the gap was even wider. I don't know, maybe it's just me. But I agree with R. C.

i sometimes find that the opposite is true...a lot of people my own age just don't know what the fuck's going on. ask the average 45-year-old to define anything subcultural (hell, ask them about the church of the subgenuis) & they just sit there & stare at you like you're from mars. pug & i have often wondered how people who lived through the 60s & 70s can still seem so damn clueless. many pop culture references are lost on them. the ones who have kids act like ward & june cleaver. they're still into the same tired old protestant work ethic that their great-grandparents were into. they're not conversant about art & literature, not to mention underground culture. of course, that's not true in every case. i also find that the younger generation is often more hung up about sex. "free love" doesn't mean jack to them. they weren't there. they'll never get it. i miss a lot of references, myself, when i'm dealing w/ people considerably older. but i gladly let them clue me in. i WANT to know more about their world. anyway, there are advantages to dating younger people. there are also advantages to dating older people, or even people your own age. as long as you're having a good time, who cares?

I love the philosophy R.C. I think it pretty much says it all. Not older than my parents and not younger than my kids. I really don't have to worry about that now, but it is nice when it is somehow summed up and written in front of you. Sometimes, only a couple of years can make a big difference. Especially when you are younger. For example, when I was 21 I was dating a guy who was 18. He was wonderful to my daughter and very cultured, when he was around me. Bottom line, he was 18. He was into hanging out with friends and getting drunk, etc. etc. I was past it. We split on good terms and if we bump into each other we can chat or whatever, but that's all. We were in two different places in our lives.

I suppose I could add to my previous caveats that when I was in my teens and 20s no one would touch me with a ten foot pole. I went through a lot of pain back then and things like that really warp a person. Not like the last two years haven't sucked real bad, also----hey....rack up the damage.... Truth is, after such a shitty adolescence and early adulthood, if I get to have fun with someone 18-20s, I consider it a cosmic injustice being corrected, plain and simple. Issues? Yeah, I've got fuckin' issues...what about it?

Compatability is the key.Do you enjoy this persons company? Are you comfortable with them?Do you have the same sense of humor?Do you have similar interests? For myself,the first thing I notice about a guy,is his sense of humor.I wouldn't want to be burdened with a stick in the mud.I need a guy that can come home,and find me dancing a Carmen Miranda number on the coffee table,and not be worried that I'm scuffing the table with my heels,but rather a guy that can help me add more fruit to my hat,to see how much I can keep balanced and still dance with.[and not find anything unusual about this activity] Or I can pop out of the closet,and scare him,wearing a skunk costume,and he thinks its funny. Age,to a certain degree is irrelevant.But compatabitlty,isn't. But that sense of humor needs to be tempered with intelligence.[otherwise you're dating the village idiot][which,of course,then makes YOU the village idiot](hmmm,perhaps,then you are the perfect pair) There are alot of mature "younger" folks,and alot of "immature" older folks,out there.So I don't think you can just say its right,or its wrong,in relation to age differences. If it rocks your socks,go for it.If two people are comfortable with each others company,I sincerely don't think you can ask for much more.Life is short.You shouldn't let preconceived age differences,limit your possibilities.

coke, limos and hookers. right? eri i think you have to take pug's persepctive with a grain of salt. he's impressed, but not like the cheerleaders are impressed with the quarterback's new bitchin 5.0. He could care less about success...i think decadence rocks his boat more (am i right pug? you have a more sinister slant to it) i think age makes less and less of a difference as as both people in the relationship get older. i was really referring to 35+ peeps (especially men) diddlin those under 22. its the immaturity of someone under 22 i think thats the crux of my inquiry here. you've all strayed from the topic at hand and will receive demerits. Eri, you're coming very close to detention. crimson of course many people your age are out of touch to you. Your perspective and outlook, intellect as well as your experiences and tastes ARE subculture...SUB...below the radar. im feeling bossy

Hmmm,no words of wisdom for me?

Decadence can sometimes be a sign of success. I already said that the older men with the under 22 women, but me. I wasn't mature enough to understand any relationship with an older man at that time. I think it makes is easy for an older man to prey on the younger women, because they are too naive to know the difference. Gee Patrick, if detention doesn't work do I get a spanking?

i'll admit that i'm below the radar. truth is, i probably seem a bit strange to anybody of any age. however, i do seem to relate to somewhat younger people a bit better. many people don't/can't/won't understand me...so i depend upon the faithful few, like pug & pilate, who know exactly where i'm coming from. i'd rather have their counsel & friendship than a room full of fawning 19-year-old males. i think.

Why not both?

you're right, reverend. never take option "A" or option "B" when you can have option "motherfucking EVERYTHING". and now, i'll turn the mic over to oswald, who's been wanting to post ever since i turned on the computer.

I just wanted to say hello. And that theres 3 years betwean me and my boy friend. But it is real fucked up. Cause he is 18 and I am still a minor and, if he was caught at being in bed with me it would be rape by law. That is wrong cause if he was in bed with me I would sure be willing. Why do they make a law like that anyway. You fuck a guy on your own will but cause he is older it is now rape but you layed down in his bed your own self.

I'm 17, and i think it would be pretty creepy if one of my friends was dating someone in their 20s. Even relationships between college and high school kids are wierd because you have different spheres of experience. I guess if they can make it work and they are both happy, its okay, I would still be a bit uncomfortable with it. One of my friends dated a guy who was 2 years older than her for 2 1/2 years, but wanted to end it when he had been at a nearby college for a few months. He wanted to keep seeing her, and wouldn't leave her alone. Even when she planned a trip to Florida he got a ticket so he could come, too. That was really creepy. So in that case, obviously there was a bad relationship going on, because she didn't want it and he kept pushing it. But I think that there can be good or bad relationships, no matter what your age is. The main thing is that it's harder to say no to someone who is older than you, either because you respect them or you fear them, or both.

I dated a 17 year old when I was 22. And it was only because I wanted to get laid. I wouldn't do it know, though. I'd be a little leary of 21-year -olds now, just becasue I know my own priorities are not very likely to mesh with that of a much younger woman. Although I wouldn't kick one out of bed, you know?

which reminds me.... i had a dream of richard dreyfuss the other day.

Not a Richard Dreyfuss fan, but Bill Pullman is another story. MMMMMMM :p

Oswald is right about one thing. I myself have never felt that "Statutory Rape" should be a crime. I've known to many underage people whose morals were less than pure when I was a teenager. Now a days I here the same group crying on TV about their inocent children - 14, 15, 16, 17 - who have been with an adult willingly. And, it's the adult who is portrayed as something less than human. We've had three recent cases here in Maryland where Female teachers of varying ages 22 on up have been arrested and charged with sex crimes for their relations with teenaged boys. I rember how it was to be a teenaged boy. With raging hormones. I would have jumped at the chance. Yet, these three women were depicted in the media as praying on inocent children. Give me a brake! Then several years earlier. There was a 14 year old girl who willingly had relations with a local DJ. As well as all the members of the local firehouse. And, who do you think the media depicted as the inocent victim. And, who were the villians. I don't think "Statutory Rape" should be a crime. Rape yes. Statutory Rape no. Unless the age was lowered to twelve; maybe. But, then I've known some people under thirteen whose moral character was not the most virginal either. I just find it hard to picture these "children" as victims.

and adult,especially a teacher should know not to mess with underage students period. i think those women should receive the same treatment that a man would in those instances. there should be no gender distinction in these laws. the laws are fine and in this case are designed to protect the majority. there are always exceptions like Oswald....and well, the dear will just have to be patient. He has plenty of wonderful life ahead of him. Oswald Im sure you understand, considering your experiences, those laws are there to protect many others, not keep you and Dorian apart. There are kids who need that protection. As far as Im concened they are victims of an irresponsible, negligent adult. Despite what these children say, they arent mature yet.

there was a case here in kc where a 17 year old boy and a 15 year old girl were at a drinking party, and had sex. the 17 year old was called a sexual predator and sent to juvi and is being forced to appoligize to the girl and take sexual predator classes

By eri on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:56 pm: Not a Richard Dreyfuss fan, but Bill Pullman is another story. MMMMMMM :p BILL PULLMAN HAS A HAIRY GUT

Whatever honey. Anyways...... I do agree with both Patrick and The Watcher. I think that a teacher preying on a student is awful, and there should be no gender distinction in these laws. I do see it as an adult preying on a child. I think the adult is definately negligent. I do worry about statutory rape laws. I was a rare person in high school. I didn't lose my virginity til I was 19. That is not true for most of the girls I knew. Of all of my friends, I was the only virgin. Teenage girls are not always innocent, by their own choice. I don't think a 18, 19 year old man should be punished if with a 16, 17 year old girl. Most girls I knew that age were willing. Back to Patrick's original question, it wasn't about a teenager with a 20 year old. It was about the "morality" of a 40 year old with a 20 year old. Again, I would question it, and the situation and probably would have little respect for the 40 year old.

I can see a stat. rape law if your like 55 and hitting on a kid. That is not right. But Christ theres' only 3 years difrance with me and Dorian. But if we screw it is rape cause I am a minor. The truth is that we have not had sex yet he is still virgin and we are obeying my parents. But it is not always easy. It is not a law that keep me out of Dorians bed but my love for my folks. They have told us to wait. Fuck the law. In my life I have droped acid sold my body and done robbery. The law did not stop me or protect me. But knowing that my parents care what happens to me is a big thing and, I will try to wait for their sake.

want to cry.

like i said oswald be patient. look at the forest, not the trees. look outside yourself. im curious if the law didnt exist if your parents would still insist you wait. teens are in such a hurry to grow up, the don't realize what they have. slowdown yins!

Pez... Cry... Why???

I admit it is morally reprehensible for an adult in their thirties or forties to "pray upon" inocent children. I still don't think it should be a crime when the "victim" goes willingly. The "victim" also has to pay a price for their willing particpation. But, currently they are called inocent children. If it was anything but sex. Such as drunken driving, armed robbey, murder, ect. These "children" would be treated by the system and the media as adults. Well, the liberal media might call them inocent victims of societies ills. But, most of the others claiming that these "children" must be protected - would be demanding they be strung up and skinned as adults. I've always loved this wonderful double standard.

I think the folx would ask me to wait even if there was no law. They think I am just to young. But they know my back ground good as anyone. I have had plenty of sex all ready. What they want me to have now is normal love insted of a freak show which is the story of my life. They say its' time for me to date like a normal kid my age tho nothing is ever really normal for me. I think they wish I did not date at all but Dorians here and he is not going away and they do like him. D and me are good most all the time and amuse our selfs in non sex ways. When it gets hot it gets realy hot but we stop and walk away from it. It is hard in more ways than one. I am an ex prostitute I am not Dudley Doright and I was not born yesterday. The one thing I want is credit. Give me some fucking credit. I packed a LOT of living into my years and I have been around I have lived thru a bunch of shit that most adults could not handel. I been beaten and raped. Worked as a whore and worked damn hard and at the end of my day I cant have a fuckin beer cause I'm too young? I can get pushed in the dirt by adults and fucked in the mouth by strangers but I cant have a beer cause that's BAD. I cant sleep with my lover cause he is 18 but he could get fucked by a 50 year old and there is no law against it. Things need to change. And the police came by and told my band to be quiet God damn their spleens doesn't any body apreciete good music anymore?

you have lots of credit right under your nose. they asked something very important and difficult of you, and you are going along with it. considering how powerful of an inclination sex can be....you are going along with it, and for that they must love you to death.

Sure they love me to death cause every one does. But really I know they care for me and they dont ask me to do stuff without reason so I try to go along. But I am saying this. Why when I have lived like an adult for so long do I have to live like a child now. But it's cool. I am not making a fuss God knows I do not want to go back to my old ways. My respeact for my folks is pretty damn big right now. We have had some family problams big stuff money bullshit but we all get along and work thru it and even then we help each other and Pilate put his arm around me and he says Brendan I could not have got thru this without you and it make me get all sniffly. Like I am any big help to any body. I used to wanna do nothing but look good and party but now it is changeing. I can be of use to people after all. I am needed here. Pilate needed me and I came to him I help him thru some real big stuff. My Daddy Trace also needs me and he thank me for being so sweet during all the bad stuff and for doing what I am asked to do. Well I got no big reason to not obey. Exceapt the sex that is a tuff one I just wanna get naked with my baby you know. Not do real nasty stuff. But the second I get naked I know where my mind mite go and that is exacly why Pilate says NO. So your Captain is fucked, or not fucked as the case may be!

quero uma mulher tesuda

Hi everyone, patrick, just joined...is that ok? i think we all need one partner we can feel close too, love, share things with... I think "screwing" around just "fucks you up" basically... A 40-year old man with charisma, success, money an a mind-blowing sexual energy is a danger to any 20-year old...simple as that... Question is why does the 40-year old man gets addicted to 20-year olds? is it just power? Is it just proving he's still got it to himself? Maybe its more than that...maybe its a deeper lying cause. im not an expert. and im tired. I just believe any man or woman is human and has feelings. Unless you're a total monster you cant get out of a couple of years of screwing around, boozing and drugs unharmed. You can't. No one can. Why youngsters? Whats the relationship of that man to his mother as a child? What's his perception of women? What have been his experiences with women? What female side of himself does he neglect? Why a "daughter" instead of an equal partner? Because he is sure that she wont turn him down. He is sure she will love him. And when she has...he leaves...to find another "daughter" to love him. And another one. and another one...and he gets sadder and sadder. A tremendous need for love...combined with a tremendous fear for commitment, a tremendous sensitivity and fear of getting hurt. does that make sense? I need sleep:) bisou

i cant sleep! Why??? I just feel so familiar with all this for some reason...my first boyfriend was "a little boy" who I could "mummy" around and get angry with when he got pissed:) Then I met an older man, 22-38. Lived with him for about 1 year. He was a father figure I guess..gave me security, safety, didn't get pissed and had a 3-year old boy I loved... but I was bored to death. I started seeing a colleague at work. Goodlooking, french and marketing manager. We hit the sheets one night during an exhibition in Germany. He was married with 2 kids. After the first night I felt really bad and decided it wasn't the right thing to do. But he slipped a hot note under my hoteldoor the next morning saying he absolutely loved it and hoped we could continue our "encounters". Ehm. I felt intimidated...afraid he was going to give me hell at work if I ended it. I was 22, naive and ambitious. It was a power thing...so it went on for a few months. ...trips abroad, hotels, dinners and sex. But there was no bond. nothing. It was cold. I was a professional hooker. harsh but true. My relationship ended because of it and i found myself in a new flat...I started and finished an economics graduate and then things went REALLY wrong!! Well...sort of...because there was Patrick...and Nadine...yeah...so here I am today... stuck. exhausted. wrecked. But I love Patrick. I know that. For the rest I dont know much. that I need sleep. and recovery. soon. very soon. and I love B too. Because he's hot. He really is. Dangerously hot as a matter of fact. But wot is he doing? Wot is he doing? He hardly talks and when he talks he's either stoned or pissed and talks crap...so I smoke and get stoned. so there we are. both stoned talking crap. Ehm...im so tired. allo dodo? :)

I'M AN 18 YEAR YOUNGIN WHO WAS WITH A 50 YEAR OLD AND IT FELT GREAT! HER ASS WAS SO BIG AND ROUND ND SHE LIKES ME. ALSO, SHE DOES NOT LOOK 50. SHE CAN PASS 4 A 39 YEAR OLD N E DAY

I'M 19. I LOST MY VIRGINITY 2 A 41 YEAR OLD. SHE WAS A TALL, SLIM WOMAN WITH A BIG BUTT N GOOD FRIENDS WITH MY MOM. SHE HAS TOLD ME SHE LIKED ME B4 N HAD BEEN FLIRTING WITH ME SINCE I WAS 15. I NEVER TOOK HER SERIOUSLY BUT 1 DAY, SHE CAME BY THE HOUSE DRESSED IN A TIGHT DRESS , HIGH HELL SHOES AND A MATCHING BLAZER. MY MOM WAS ASLEEP IN HER ROOM, SHE SAT ON MY LAP, SHE KISSED ME, I GRABBED HER BUTT AND I WAS OUT THE V CLUB! WE R SO IN LOVE NOW AND WE R GONNA GET MARRIED B4 I TURN 20! YEAH!

wow. not only did you age one year in 27 minutes, you also managed to become a virgin again and then lose it again. What are you going to do with your Nobel Prize?

WHATS A NOBIL PRIZE??????

classic.

at 18 i had a sexual relationship with a woman who was 28,WE SHARE THE SAME BIRTHDAY!. she said i was the best she ever had and if she was'nt married now we would b 2gether.

Udontwannaknow, I supposed if you and your lover has the same Birthday, would it be possible if your child have the same birthday as you and your lover?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

R.T.C. + U = INSANITY

What is with R.T.C?

You guys are Insanity,Perverto, And Sicko.GO! GO! Go Fuck Yourself!

Hi guys. I came across your website. I am a 21 year old dating a 41 year old. We're coming up on our first year anniversary. It's my FIRST relationship and he was my first lover as well. We were friends during his divorce and when he moved out, we started dating. He has two kids, who I have a relationship with now- they both love me. It's really hard. I consider myself mature for my age but there are times when I desperately wish I could run back to the way things were- take everything back and find someone closer to my age group. Unfortunately, you can't chose who you love. I believe people have the power to shape their own lives, but there was something keeping me wanting more from him- call it loneliness, sadness, the need to be loved, to trust someone. And maybe he felt that way too. But now, here we are, talking about having kids someday, figuring out how to integrate our friends, and traveling the world together. He has a fantastic spirit and a good heart. I idolized him and maybe I still do. Sure, he has shitty characteristics, but none so shitty worth leaving him for- the good outweighs the bad. In short, I think age difference really depends on the person. I think everyone can tell if they are truely loved by someone else- you have to use your BRAIN and your intuition. Looking back, yes I was pushed into this relationship. Yes, I was pressured into making love. Yes, I felt a lot of his aim was selfish and most of the time he put others before me. Would I do it differently if I had the chance- yes. But I was swept away. I was living in a fantasy and now (unlike all the other men I've dated before) it amounted to something. follow your heart. good people are hard to find but easy to spot.

"I dated a 17 year old when I was 22. And it was only because I wanted to get laid. I wouldn't do it know, though. I'd be a little leary of 21-year -olds now, just becasue I know my own priorities are not very likely to mesh with that of a much younger woman. Although I wouldn't kick one out of bed, you know?" YOU PERV!!!

i dated a 22 yr old and a 27 yr old when i was 17. no regrets.

I dated a 1000 year old 86 acre fungus in the Swiss alps once. It was just a spring fling, though.

that reminds me of a sci-fi story about a meteor landing in kenya and basically seeding the planet with a conscious, plant lifeform. can't remember at all who wrote it or what it was called but it was an interesting story. it was benford or brin or bear or one of those guys.

darling, you're fucked. okay i guess not really, just young and foolish and living out what you're going to live out. you might as well enjoy it or run like hell. either way i would say learn your lessons as quickly as possible, but be careful what you ask for. can't choose who you love, eh? sorry, you can't choose...wait, yes, *you* choose everything you have. even your parents. in that same sense you don't choose i guess. there i go again. don't listen to me.

how do you choose your parents? I always feel like I miss the points you try to make. Like you're saying something more than what you're saying, and I'm too superficial to see it.

shes saying something interesting that i think i get, but she seems to get gunshy and thus leaving. of course you cant choose your biological parents, but at the same time you can choose whether you will have them as parents.

my kitten chose me.

i read into it some metaphysical, karmic, reincarnation malarky.

I've heard of that. When I was a kid I would have chosen Harrison Ford and Lynda Carter to be my parents.

i would have chosen cheech and chong.

dave do you have any Air mp3's you can email me? or something? i just saw them last night with the LA Philharmonic as a backing band and Stereolab opening and im pretty much decided i need to have more. i think it was you that got me remotely interested with cherry blossom video. did you know that one dude does almost all the vocals? no girl. just modulated microphones.

yo, i'm all full of air. i'll hook ya up. send me yer addy again. sounds like a cool show.

me too? over the e-mail?

accustat at yahoo

i mean email me your meatspace addresses.

OK!

also: as a 17 yr old in high school, i was simultaneously dating a HOT 15 year old and a really cool 21 year old. i felt much affection for both of them, for different reasons. I also had a relationship with 2 much "older" (a 26 yr old and a 28 yr old) women who, for me, were mostly a conduit for booze and drugs. then: By dave. on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 11:47 pm: i dated a 22 yr old and a 27 yr old when i was 17. no regrets. memory fades.

Could I get a point, please?

there is no point.

The point.

my boobs are bigger.

Yes, but probably not as pleasingly shaped.

am i the only one who sees majour problems with knitted bikinis?

Well, if you haven't guessed, I dig 'em.

Of course, I don't have to wear one.

Much.

the tops, okay, maybe that would work, although wool + water = not good? But I've seen matching knitted thong bottoms for them. That thong string would NEVER be clean, man.

Tom Waits on Dave Letterman tonight.

was that judah bauer and russell simmons?

I'm with you on the crocheted bathing suit, Wisper. It' just... wrong. Did I miss Tom Waits? DRAT.

Okay, so I have lived on both spectrums of this drawn out topic. I'm 21 going on 22 (woman) and previously dated an 18 year old. Since it's in the past we can all agree that it didn't work out. His age really bothered me, but this was a drastic change for me becuase my former boyfriend just turned 35 on monday. I met him when I was 19, he was 33. 13 year difference was a lot to swallow and I hung with it for 2 years, but I felt that there was always something missing, like I was giving up my youth, to play house with him. He had a son as well, who was closer in my age than I was with his dad. It was weird but we had a good relationship. He was european so he didn't look like the average 30+ year old. I would say that it was all sex in the begining, I mean he was older more experienced and our sex drives were really high. But as soon as the lust wore off, I felt an uneasy feeling of unhappiness when I was with him and soon had to face the fact that I wasn't in love with him, even though I wanted to be. It just wasn't there. As for the 18 year old, he looks like he's 18. I felt that it was a little taboo. He isn't socially mature and emotionally, I felt feelings of jealousy and insecurities creeping up in the dating stages so I knew that it wouldn't work. When you are that young you are automatically going to have those types of issues becuase you don't have the experience of a dealing with a really mature relationship.I couldnt sleep with him because it felt wrong in my eyes.I didn't want to tarnish this guys heart, when he really doesnt know what he wants. He thinks he does but he doesnt. Hell I don't even know what I want so, we're just friends now.

how old were you when you dated the 18 year old?

33-19 = 14,troll.

I am 21 I'll be 22 in January, I dated him this yaer...briefly...two weeks

yeah I turned 20 shortly after I met him so it would be 13 years.....but why troll?

Did he have a codpiece? I did see A Dirty Shame,it was all about perversion and fetishes,I thought I saw it all,but I didn't and I had to take a shower after I saw it cause I felt dirty.There was 8 people when the movie started and 4 when it was over,I'm proud to say I stuck it out.I liked it,I give it two thumbs even cowgirls gets the blues up.

i've been listening to the mp3's that dave. sent me thanks dave. yu rool

yay! i've been really into tarwater lately. there's one song with a woman singing that tries to be a bit too much like massive attack but i really like the deadpan vocals on the rest of it. early rises is one of my favorites. that song could go on for an hour and i wouldn't get tired of it. also really into the fiery furnaces. both excellent albums. cleo likes them, too. especially blueberry boat, which has a "really rosie" vibe at some points. she wants to email them and ask if the dog died.

hey dave, i got your disc, but the 1 track...nothing. doesnt read. a friend seemed to think she could put the disc in her mac and just convert the data back to mp3 or whatever tha tmaybe you accidently copied it as... somethign other than a music file or whatever. i have no idea how that shit works. anyway im sure i can figure it out.

it's mp3s. that be a data cd. you needs a puter. or an mp3 cd player. now, you can copy the files onto a hard drive and then burn the albums off to audio cds if you have the right equipment.

patrick, do you want an MP3 cd player? I've got one in my glove compartment I haven't used in months. I'll ship it to ye.

patrick, if you have a dvd plaver, they usually play mp3s, too. or take tiggy up on his offer.

sure tiggy. i dont have a dvd player. i need a lot of things. im here tig your kindness has not gone unnoted.

kazu, you rule! the chocolate ruled. the cookies were yummy. i didn't like the vegan gummies but cleo apparently did because they're all gone now. haven't had the coffee yet. thank you thank you thank you!

(ditto!!!!!) The two tiny morsels of chocolate that I managed to eat before it was gone were awesome.

I am a 34 year old woman who just got left for an 18 year old girl by my 35 year old boyfriend after he found out he had gotten me pregnant. I think it is sick and perverted.

sick, perverted? not really. Morally and ethically reprehensible? Bingo. Is he related to Newt Gingrich, by any chance?

Well I think that if the girl is over the age of 18 she should have the right to date, marry or whatever with anyone she wants. Some of you people should mind your own business. Age is no more than a number. PERIOD !!!

What if you are a 31 year "older woman", meet an 18 year old "young man" and have all the other things first. Like same sense of humor, musical tastes, values, etc. The "older woman" is being a mentor to him and helping him with college and career paths. Listening to and encouraging him. Trying to help him to learn how to move to the adult take care of himself stage. The "young man" is helping her realize that just because she is older, doesn't mean she is dead. She can still like whatever music she wants (does not have to listen to the goldie oldies or can if she wants, whatever). She can begin to write poetry, stories whatever again, that she put aside to raise children and make hubby happy. She can have a snowball fight or dance in the rain if she wants. They meet and become "just friends", but most everyone thinks you are having some "sick and disgusting" (thier words) sex thing going on. Most everyone thinks that the just being friends is somehow wrong and cannot possibly be the truth anyway. Then over time, with this constant "you can't possibly have any reason for being friends, so you must be doing something else..." both of us begin to think along those "other" lines. I'm not blaming our change in relationship on anyone else, but I know it started innocent and didn't begin to shift until all the accusations began to fly. It hasn't gone any further than discussion, but what I guess I am asking is this: Were we pushed in this direction? Could we have just stayed friends? And whether pushed or not, what is wrong with it going that way? If I could find a man closer to my age with the same characteristics, it would be okay right, but since he is physically younger it isn't?

The hell with everybody else. Have fun, live life. :)

for the record, my opinion has since evolved since started this thread. i second what he says. in addition, i wanna know what woman thinks she's 'dead' at 31? In my experience, thats when they start gettin all frisky and if it takes an honest & loving experience with an 18 year old to turn 30+ year olds frisky...so be it. You can bet the 18 year old will be better off for it. Ultimately thats what I protested when I started this thread. The perception of dishonesty. But as long as you are honest with yourself and the other person involved, go for it.

Okay, Patrick, honesty. There was a physical attraction almost from the beginning. He is a nice specimen. I neglected to share that he looks at least 25, some people who see us out and about think we are a married couple even though we don't come close to even touching, let alone acting intimate. So for me at least (having yes, been feeling a bit dead) this was a bit of a self-esteem booster. The odd language we speak may have something to do with it. An acquaintance claims we speak "English, yet not English, incomplete sentences, sometimes simple gestures, that no one else on the planet can freaking understand". But I never intended to act on that attraction, even when I found out he had an attraction as well. He said he never intended to act on his either. But these feelings weren't even admitted to until other people questioned us. Then it was admitted under the context of what are they seeing? Have we acted inappropriately? Are we fooling ourselves? We decided together that we had acted always completely proper but it finally came out that there was something there, but how could anyone else see it is a mystery to me. So then the first step is admittance right? Did that, then after a time, I feel like saying, "Screw it, if I am going to be tried and judged..." We both acknowledge that it isn't like we are going to get married and have kids (already had mine, thank you) and it could never be socially acceptable unless we moved somewhere far away (like another dimension) and just never mentioned our ages. So I think that's pretty honest. I also worry (hence conflicted and confused) that I am warping him or tarnishing him in some way. He is a very good boy (or was until I got hold of him, now maybe slightly less good) and this all started with me wanting him to end up in a good life. I only want his happiness, and if I say "The hell with everybody else. Have fun, live life" and then he ends up hurt, I've just jacked everything up haven't I? Does he really end up better off for it? As for wanting to know what woman thinks she is dead at 31... yeah that would be me. You and Antigone wouldn't happen to be psychlogists would you? I think I need the help. Also curious, when in all the above, your opinion evolved. Then there is this from earlier: By R.C. on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:14 am: My Golden Rule is: Never have sex w/anyone older than yr parents or younger than yr kids. Pooeple always say "Age is just a number." But when you strip away all the rationalizations/once you get past a 10-yr-age difference involving someone under 30/I really do think it's mostly abt the sex. The difference btwn a 20-yr-old dating a 30-yr-old is too big a stretch. But a 30-yr-old & a 40-yr-old cd work/becuz the common ground is a basic level of maturity & experience. Okay, this I totally get, but he isn't younger than my oldest kid (although in ten years they would have a perfectly acceptable age difference to have a relationship) and I am not as old as his mother (a little too close to her age for my comfort though). But once you strip it down to the fact that we aren't having sex and we still could be considered best friends, does that rationalize it all? Yeah he is a little immature, that's what I like, he can act like a kid still which I am not supposed to anymore. Why the hell is that? We did have that snowball fight at Christmas time and it was the first one I had had in 15 years and it was FUN! Who decides at what age something that silly and fun is no longer allowed with your friends? How come the other day when it rained, I knew I'd be committed to the padded room if I just went out in my yard and laid down in the rain and let it wash over me? The two of you say go for it, but if you drove by my house and saw me letting the rain wash over me, you'd think I'd lost it too. Geeze, even my best female friend would probably think so. My immature "boy friend" is the only one who says, "What's wrong with it? The rain feels good, so do what makes you happy." Now with way more info, what do you think? (Other than I have too much time on my hands, and I type way too much.)

I don't understand your problem, if you're only friends. my relationship with my best friend is thought of as weird by pretty well everyone, and I figure those people can think what they want. I'm happy with my friend. unless of course you think you're in love with him, in which case, considering the huge amount of doubts you seem to have, I would say: let him go now, because you're only going to push him away later.

i think you're overthinking this and letting too many outside factors impair your judgment. who gives a shit what anyone else things. have fun.

I second the motion. Stop fretting and start fornicating.

and post pics of course.

Hey, I thought you guys were seriously trying to help a troubled and confused woman. Now I know it's really all about wanting new material for the depravity. I'd consider it if Antigone were to go into more detail on the 1000 year old 86 acre fungus in the Swiss alps. Actually that is a joke, I might consider it only if he DOESN'T go into detail on that. Thanks for the listen, communication, and the laugh.

No, I'm actually serious. For years I've over analyzed, looked, and never lept. It was stupid. Just Leap.

yeah, he's right. Just fuck him. if it works, cool. if now, well, he's just 18 and he'll get over it.

13m chat or internet sex

if so press 13