Why do they have seventeen miles of library in Vatican City but the leaders only want to give you seventeen feet of pap?

I take it you are not a catholic? The Holy Church of Rome has remained the foremost seat of learning on the planet earth for the last 1500 years. The Holy Fathers have always sponsored learning, science and education often in face of direct hostility from the state in which the church operated. There are more catholic schools in the world than any other denomination. Catholic priests have taught more people to read and write and have spread the holy civilising word of god to more countries than any other body of men, EVER. What you are saying is foolish in the extreme. No single man can encompass the wealth of knowledge in the world, it is necessary to have some overall administrative body. The church has proved itself to be the most liberal proactive force in modern educationl.Catholics around the world know they will receive excellent education with an ethical underpinning as well as the certain knowledge that the work of Jesus will carry on. The church believes in multicultural societies but single sex single religious education. This belief has proved sound over 500 years and the unwavering belief of the Holy Father in these sound moral principles will see the Catholic church outlive all of the so called modern democratic institutions.

Cough Cough! Galileo!! Cough Cough! Copernicus!

Cough! Cough! "Life of Brian"!

Old Galileo's long forgot/though he was right and we were not/amen.

Get your facts correct. Both Galileo and Copernicus were arraigned by the Holy See because they were expounding heresy under the terms proscribed by the Holy Father. The Roman Catholic Church was the first religious institution to promote University learning. As soon as Jesuit academics had agreed with both individuals hypotheses the church rapidly included these new non-heretical facts in the canon of learning. They were treated exactly the same way that someone preaching against the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ would have been treated. The church did not approve of Life of Brian because it was artistically worthless and only served to encourage non-observance amongst lapsed Catholics.

I was almost in love until that "artistically worthless" part. Dang. However, please stick around. I'm tired of being the only person who can defend the Catholic Church around here.

In my humble opinion, must put disclaimer here, The problem with the Catholic Church is: 1. To much control over what should be individual rights. Don't they still have a library of banned books. I believe an individual is not supposed to pray directly to God but to one of the saints who will pass on your problem to God - just like a government. 2. Like the Islamists they can't seperate the idea of church and state. How, many countries have the Roman Catholic Church as the state church? How many religious wars were fought because some group was not Catholic? Remember the Spanish Inquisition? I will give them one point - They killed fewer people charged with witchcraft.

Killed a hell of a lot of muslims though. And sure the church accepted Galileo and Copernicus, but only after it was so obvious they were right. They still screwed them initially. I will say at least the Catholic Church, unlike many other Christian denominations, do finally come around to the facts after a while (such as evolution, but I'm still waiting for the equality of women and their rights for self- determination).

You know what my Catholic Church has done that irritates me? They've decided not to hand out the bulletins until after Mass, that way people won't read them during the service. It should be up to one's own self to decide if one wants to pay attention or not.

Let's hear it for Self-Determination!

I find it hard to believe in these days with aids and other std's that the cathelic church condones the use of condoms. What's up with that?

thats fucking hilarious spider. though it confronts all conventional wisdom that you and I have...you just seem too damn smart for church spider....i've never figured it out.

1. The Catholic Church forbids the use of condoms. If one has remained celibate until marriage and does not cheat on one's spouse, there is not much need to protect oneself from STDs. AIDS from blood transfusions (or unwanted pregnancy) is another matter, and I don't want to get into that. 2. Patrick, try to read anything by Thomas Aquinas, and then tell me someone can be too smart for church.

i want to say i read something by him in Paidea in high school. i want to say it wasnt memorable,but that doesnt mean anything. Im only talking about you.

I'm talking about how, smart or stupid, there's room for everybody.

i understand that. my question is why bother to try and fit to begin with. but i didnt want to ask that question. as it opens a vast realm im not sure im ready to get into.

But all Catholics don't have your high morals Spider.

yes, you can be all celibate and such until mariage, but then if your partner hasn't, well, better get that blood test. But waiting til marriage? There's another thign that I think is not somethign that god came up with. I mean, supposedly this entity invented the UNIVERSE. So, what does it matter if you put your peter in a tweeter before certain words are said or not? And what about before marriage in the Catholic sense existed? I just find it really hard to believe in a deity that is all universal and so picky about things in the long run don't really matter.

George Carlin, in his new HBO special, has reduced the Ten Comandments down to Two. An interesting piece actually.

The issue of sex before marriage is not hygiene, public health or any of those mechanistic concerns. Sex before marriage is a moral issue. In an age where moral values are fluid and greed is the predominant driving force in our society we need strong moral values. St. Peter forbade sex before marriage as one of the main rocks upon which our church was built. It is not intended for disease control but to establish self discipline against animal drives as a proof that we have a divine spark within us. As Jesus resisted temptation in the wilderness, so we can learn to resist the many base temptations in the moral wasteland which is modern society. These principles apply regardless of the age in which we live. Celibacy and chastity are not the same things. WE remain celibate by choice not by law. We remain chaste and true to our spouses as an expression of Catholic love and respect for their holiness as members of our church. Its all about morality.

is morality better served buffet style like many religions dictate? i don't think so. I think it should be more localized.

The Holy Roman Catholic church is just that; IT IS CATHOLIC AND IT IS UNIVERSAL. There are no other "religions" only heresies.

Sir, the Pope, in his "Crossing the Threshold of Hope," writes: <<The Council speaks of membership in the Church for Christians and of being related to the Church for non-Christian believers in God, for people of goodwill (cf. Lumen Gentium 15-16). Both these dimensions are important for salvation, and each one possesses varying levels. People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ. Besides formal membership in the Church, the sphere of salvation can also include other forms of relation to the Church. Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation (cf. Ecclesiam Suam 101-117), which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement "Outside the Church there is no salvation." <<It would be difficult to deny that this doctrine is extremely open. It cannot be accused of an ecclesiological exclusivism. Those who rebel against claims allegedly made by the Catholic Church probably do not have an adequate understanding of this teaching.>> ... <<The Church, precisely because it is Catholic, is open to dialogue with all other Christians, with the followers of non-Christian religions, and also with all people of good will, as John XXIII and Paul VI frequently said.>> http://www.catholic.net/RCC/POPE/HopeBook/chap21.html. Don't be unnecessarily hard-assed, please.

damn, i like this guy better as ezekiel. he's more fun and there's less reading.

I don't think I want to sin with him at all. He just doesn't like a hole lotta fun.

I hope I don't sound like him. :(

its probably nate spider just playing around.

what is this nate spider? any christian who passes judgement is not a good christian.

You DON'T sound like him, Spider---- I'm pushing 40 and I've never been married. If I'd waited for marriage I'd be a serial killer right now. I've done the celibacy-thing for very long stretches of time----they aren't worth it.

Thanks, Pug. I got scared there for a minute. One thing, though: What does the original poster mean about "seventeen feet of pap"? I understand that pap is probably refers to papism, but what does the seventeen feet mean?

i think it's just to contrast with the "17 miles of library" in the first part of the sentence. sort of like saying "that was 2 hours of movie, but only 2 seconds of entertainment."

additionally, "pap" means baby food (for spoon feeding) or ideas or literature without value.

Ah, it seemed more specific than that, but I'm really tired and I can't think straight now, so I'm not going to think about it any more. God, am I tired. I haven't been able to sleep well for days, and last night I had a nightmare about 3 cats who sank their teeth into me and wouldn't let go.

Try petting them at the base of their tails next time. Rhi, you don't sound like De Chardiniste. You don't sweat moralistic pomposity. At least, never to quite the same level. :P And anyone who can have dreams about being devoured by cats is OK in my book.

i never thought you sounded like him either, by the way. a couple of nights ago i had a dream that i was in australia. cat may have been in it somewhere, but i don't remember now. i was with a lot of other people, but i don't know who. at the end of it we are on top of one of those tall, coffee can-shaped rock formations like they have in arizona ( like this. i know of ayers rock in australia, so there are probably smaller versions.) anyway, it's dark and there are two men, father and son, living on top of the rock. they have a little camp and a fire going and we all sit down and pass a bottle around. i rememeber looking off the side of the rock and feeling a sense of vertigo because it was like looking from the top of a skyscraper. at the end we all sit down at a long table and start playing some game.

Hey, droop. I was thinking about trying out the fancy new light rail that goes all the way from Dallas to Ft Worth. Wanna do lunch some time?

nobody ever wants to have lunch with me. i eat like a javelina. we have a fancy new light rail system? damn.

I am pouting that my dream performance was so forgettable. I'm talking to my agent about this. We do have some pretty weird rock formations, especially around Kakadu and in central Australia. I often think about how nice it would be to have some of my Sorabji friends down here, but I don't want you to go touring, I want you sit on my verandah and drink with me until the stars come out and then sit at my dinner table and eat my food and be happy.

You know what? When I go and visitg friends, That's all I want to do. Touristy stuff is alright and all, but given a choice, I would prefer spending the time with a person than looking at a thing. especially if that person is someone like Cat. If I could afford the money and time right now, I would have no qualms about flying to Oz to simply hang out with Cat. That's how high my regard for her is. not to slight other sorabjites, but let's face it, it's a lot easier to make it to the west coast for example than a differnet continent!

Ah Sem would that we had world enough and time enough, there would not be beer enough. Thank you mate, for the vote of confidence. My tail was just starting to droop, but now it's all perky again.

Well,if I come,I better see some kangaroo's in your yard. And, could you arrange to have some of the Matajara aborogines pop in for drinks? And I bet they do the "Eco Challenge" not far from your house,too.[I always wanted to enter that,but when I saw them pluck the Navy Seals out of the water,I knew I was out of my league] Oh,and those nasty little Tazamanian Devils,I've always wanted to see them,[as stinky and nasty as they are,they NEVER get infections,so from a medical standpoint I'm interested in their saliva],can they come to your house? I already know you're a good cook,and you have a ready supply of licquor,and I would love to see you dance ballet,and I could just go on and on about Cats virtues,so maybe one day I'll just have to come over there,and experience this in person.

ok, no can do on the Tasmanian devils, but I do have wallabies. Actually some people say I have a few wallabies loose in my top paddock. (that's funny over here). I also found an echnida near the lemon tree once. I am sure I could find some other things to drool all over you, Czarina. Maybe the saliva of the MelGisonitis might be of interest. The Eco Challenge is for pussies. Do a round of the outback pubs with me and you'll never walk quite the same way again. And um...I have been known to put my pointe shoes on when I'm drunk and feverish. I don't have any virtues left sadly, but perhaps I will get some from Santa. I'm probably would be disappointing in person, but I hug good and I always have beer in the fridge.

Oh,it sounds wonderful.And,my friend,you are anything but disappointing! I think I would be quite content,sitting on your verandah,and just listening to your wonderful adventures.[but,we could probably include the MelGibsonitis,just for grins] Should you ever make it the US southern states,there is a warm bed and cold beer waiting for you at my house. Or,if you ever need to hide out,from some Persian Shiek,who's set on making you his 18th wife,or the Chinese mafia,or,you get caught looking at the mayor of Paris,and have to go on the lam,you will be safe at my home.They would never find you here.I will guard you with my life,AND give you my children. Now surely,you can't pass an invitation like that up!Shall I turn down the covers for you?

That sounded pretty good till that part about giving her your children,hey can we throw mine in there too? Maybe dump them at Ayers Rock or something?

Last week Amee quit her job,she told me she got fired,but I found out she quit.Last Sat. she called up here at 6 in the a.m. and had my s/o go bring her here because they were fighting and Jerry broke a window.Then Jerry came over and got her and they went to the Christmas party where my husband works like nothing happened(we didn't go).Sunday night they got into it,I found out about it Mon.,Jerry is or was in jail for domestic violence,he had the gall to call here collect from jail,but I just hung up.Amee last I heard was going to bail him out with his car title,I told her not to,but she is a moron.She wants to move back home but I just can't deal with her.Ryan got a warrant in the mail yesterday,for not completeing the terms of his probation.I just can't stand it anymore,Ryan won't even look for a job and he's on the phone constantly like a 15 year old girl.He is a moron too,in fact the only difference between he and Amee is that she has two kids she can't provide for,but then again Ryan's pycho girlfriend who moved to Georgia a week and a half ago called last night and say's she's pregnant. Happy Holidays my ass.

Oh Hon,surely,somewhere,there has to be a silver lining to this story.I'm not sure where,though. My day is not good,either. But,unfortunately,I have no one to blame but myself. Fuck.

I haven't had a good day in ages. But, nothing to compare with J. I'm glad I only have medical problems to deal with. Of cource I have to deal with my problems, My wife's problems, and (only sparingly) my fathers problems. J, you've made me feel very fortunate. May you never have another problem for the rest of your life. And, may all your current difficulties dissappear like an early morning fog in the sunlight.

i want a big bag of money

I want you to have a big bag of money.

Thanks Watcher,how I wish that would come true.Yesterday Jerry got out of jail,then they were over here just like nothing ever happened,I think they are on meth or something,supposedly they all (Amee,Jerry and Ryan) got jobs at some company doing phone work,something about credit debt,probably a scam,they are supposed to start today at 9 a.m,it's a quarter after 8 a.m,now Ryan says he's going to see how Amee and Jerry likes it before he goes.If Amee and Jerry are really going they should be her in about 10 minuted to get there on time,I'm not going to hold my breath.

Yesterday,they all did go to work,I watched the baby,then my senile coot of a mother called me and told me she gave Amee five hundred dollars to bail out Jerry,after I have told her repeatedly not to give her any money.When she took off the year before last,I had found out that my mother gave her ten thousand dollars and she has nothing to show for it.I think that they are on drugs,probably meth,and my mother(who has never done anything to help me)is funding them,it's sick.Then somtime around midnight Heather and Ryan got into it over the phone and she threw it at him and broke it,so I just give up on having a phone anywhere besides my bedroom.God help me,I can't stand any of them,I just so want to blow this popstand.

Do it.

Working on it

Isn't that, figuratively speeking, your pop stand? If so, why don't you kick them out?

Well,we tried to kick Ryan out this summer so he took a bunch of pills and ended up in the emergency room,we could have had him committed but he talked his dad out of it.Things just got alot worse,last friday the psycho supposedly pregnant girlfriend came back,Heather and Ryan got into it this weekend,a real scene,I slept through it.But this really broke what little spirit I had left,got a letter from our car insurance carrier sat.,telling us claims against our policy might exceed what they pay and that maybe we should see a lawyer.The accident Heather was in back in Aug. she was taking some low life friend of hers to court,when she got in the accident,now he's sueing her and the 2 families of ilegals that were in the other car,I didn't even know we had her on our policy.I've been just sick.