OK. Here we go. I think it is time to stir up the pot again. Patrick, you got me really thinking. OK, so you do not think capital punishment is a deterent. Well, is life in prison really a deterent either? Most of the "guests of the state" did not have a place to sleep, three squares a day or a tv to watch. Ask Eri's ex husband. The only place he can get a hot meal, shower and a warm bed at night is prison. He can't get it on the outside. He gets out and does something within 2 months to get put back in. Deterence? I have some more shit, but let's start here

Feigning severe mental illness can get you the same things, PLUS free drugs. If it looks like they're planning on pulling a "Ronald Reagan"* on you, simply flip out, and attack the meds nurse. State mental institutions aren't the homiest of places, but I'll bet the conversation is a lot more interesting than jail. *Ronald Reagan emptied the country's state mental hospitals in the 80's. We see the "benefit" of this everyday in San Francisco.

yeah, but was he killing people to get back in? I'd think that most people who want to go to prison just to get decent food and a bed to sleep in, don't usually resort to killing people to do it. For people who have these things to begin with, jail ain't pretty. Statistics have shown that life in jail is indeed more of a deterent than death. If you're going to shoot someone, life and death probably means little to you. But never seeing the sun again? Fear of dropping the soap? tossing the salad? that a powerful tool. The 'logic' behind capital punishment is what doesn't work: YOU can't kill people, lowly citizens, but WE can, and when we do it, it's right!....hahaha! It's twisted. Saying that killing people is wrong has to mean ALL people, ALL the time, or why should anyone take it seriously?

from Amnesty International's website Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 1996, concluded: "Research has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis..." (Reference: Roger Hood, The Death Penalty: A World-wide Perspective, Oxford, Clarendon Press, revised edition, 1996, p. 238, paragraph 328) Trace, the UN and Amnesty both international organizations, outside the realm of American politics agree that the death penalty as a deterrant doesnt work. According to Amnesty, 88% of executions worldwide in the year 2000 took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US. Thats a nice statistic to be a part of isnt it? otherwise thats really all i have to say on the matter.

In regards to what my ex was doing to get back in jail, here goes. Was he killing anyone? No, but that was just luck. He is an alcoholic and when he gets down he drinks himself into an oblivion and then drives. He has taken out support beams to overpasses, but fortunately on one was on them. He has been in accidents, but fortunately he was the only one in them. It is only good fortune that has kept him from killing people. That and the fact that he couldn't find my gun the night I kicked him out, or he would have killed me and Hayley and then shot himself, I take that back, he is too chicken to shoot himself, he would have killed us and fled.

So I take it you don't have him babysit much when you and Spunky go out to dinner and a movie?

The only way the death penalty would be a proper deterrant is if it was done before the crime was committed and, preferably, before the criminal could reproduce. Simply taking the criminal out of society, by whatever means, is not effective enough. Unfortunately, our ability to predict criminal propensities in humans isn't sophisticated enough yet to make this possbible. But, if the wussy Republicans (who say they're tough on crime!) stop logjamming proper research into genetic engineering, we'll get there in a hundred years or so. Luckily, abortion seems to be making a significant impact in the same way.

"So I take it you don't have him babysit much when you and Spunky go out to dinner and a movie? " That was funny! Made me laugh! DOUGIE MADE A FUNNY!!!!

hahahahah Dougie. He actually hasn't made an attempt to see Hayley in about 5 years. I am not offended. He only has supervised visitation, but the people authorized to do the supervision live 1,000 miles away, so I am not worried. We do need to find a babysitter so Spunky and I can go to the movies, though. My view on abortion is simple. It's none of the governments business. As far as the death penalty goes, it is a matter of religion involved in state as well as many other things. An eye for an eye vs. Thou shall not kill. I don't think the issue is an easy one for anyone. It does take an average of $34,000 per year of our tax dollars to support each person in prison. I don't think that my tax dollars should be used to make sure some serial killer or serial rapist has a big screen television. Don't tell me that they don't, I have found out first hand that they do, even in county jails, they do. I am very torn on the whole death penalty thing, but I am not going to say it shouldn't exist, when I have personally seen people to whom it was a deterrant. I will believe what I see with my own two eyes, before I believe some bullshit study done by some supposedly well educated people with an agenda.

it costs more to execute someone. people generally don't think of consequences when they are commiting crimes-- most people figure they'll never get caught.

just set their asses down in front of a monitor and make them read these message boards. bore them to death.

When I was behind bars, I watched "Superman II" but it was in a cell across the hall and the cops were watching it and couldn't hear it. but that was the drunk tank and I am sure that actual full time prisoners get better treatment .

Actual fulltime police, fireman, schools and jails get free cable.... all about the same, huh. You and you get to pay for it. Not me. I refuse to have cable. Not even for the goats.

not me, fucknut. i ain't got no fucking cable. tv is for the brainwashed masses. i heard of the CBS special docufundme on the sept. 11 debacle. i heard you could hear the wet thumps of people hitting the ground. that almost makes me what to see it. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020311/170/18ote.html look at their eyes. they glow like the devil.

and well they may be.

I think I saw Charles Manson in the background!!!

The CBS special will probably be released on video.

with or without the pleas to donate?

Is that what those people were screaming on the way down?

Next subject: Why is it ok for African Americans to have rallies and t-shirts and parades that cry Black Pride, and it is a good thing. But, if Caucasions have rallies and t-shirts and parades that cry White Pride, it is considered racist?

Because for the most part, at Black Pride rallies, blacks aren't proclaiming their superiority over any other race, they're just recognizing the need for a cohesive community, whereas at white rallies, they are usually proclaiming superiority over all other races.

I am white and I have never boasted of superiority over other races. I don't know anyone who has. I think people who fall for that are simply using reverse racism. Just because you are white and proud of your heritage, doesn't mean that you are Hitler or a member of the KKK.

who cares if Capital Punishment is a deterant? Kill the fuckers. Public hangings should be brought back. And steralize rapists. and prisons should only have books and classical music.. no weights or tv. nutritional but bad tasting food..and solitary confinement for the smallest infractions....then jails would be more of a deterent....

what a retarded thread.

as a huge generalization blacks are as racist as the dumbfuck southerners. I am southern I can say that. Let us all just inter-marry and shut the fuck up

I vote for the "little crate" approach. It makes cows more delicious. I'll bet it would do wonders with criminals!! http://www.noveal.org/gallery/vealcow03.htm

damn straight

that wouldn't work for my sister. She would want to have hot buttered monkey sex in there on top of the cow shit!

"Just because you are white and proud of your heritage, doesn't mean that you are Hitler or a member of the KKK." So what kind of rallies would you like to see White People put on, Eri? "and prisons should only have books and classical music" LMAO

khave been proclaiming our superiority to the human race the whole time. There's a devival up in Cleveland friday, but I have plans to go see the remastered Akira on the BIG SCREEN. The hell with them subgenii, there will be more devivals.

k Que es esto?

I never said I wanted a rally. I would just like to see Irish history month or Scottish history month. I would like to be able to say I am proud of my heritage without being thought of as a bigot. I don't have a superiority complex over any other races by any stretch of the imagination. I have studied black history and find it intriguing and many people uplifting and strong. I have a cousin whos name is Jennifer Lopez. I have a cousin who is half asian. I don't have any issues with any other race, other than the fact that it is allright for them to educate and celebrate their races, but it is not allright for me, because I am caucasian.

Think of it this way, Eri. Every month is white European history month here. What do you think your little kiddies are learning at school? But more importantly, what does your cuz look like from the back? Does she do her namesake justice? And if so, would she be up for becoming free Sorabji blowjob girl?

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I don't know about you, but I DID learn black history in school. That is not any kind of consolation. My children are also learning to speak spanish, and learning of all different cultures (there is a whole course in it now). As far as my cousin goes. She is 5'1", 250 lbs. and about 5 months pregnant. She has naturally blonde hair that goes past her ass. She looks absolutely nothing like J.Lo. I don't think her hubby would be up for the free blow job thing.

kill.

funny thing how a discussion of white rally already got branded as KKK affiliated here. Who, then really, is the biggot here?

what exactly would you be celebrating at a "white rally" (what ever the fuck that means) trace? your heritage? havent you ever heard of Oktoberfest? St. Patricks day? These are days celebrating heritage (at least here in the US) "White" is not a heritage. Your wife was the first person to associate "white rally" to "KKK" nitwit.

Alright, here goes. there should not be anyone celebrating any individual heritage. that is not what the US is about. It is about unity. Not diversification. It is about africans, russians, germans, italians, mexicans, you name it, working together and being one nation. Not many nations, but one. Why celebrate a heritage your ancestors left behind for various reasons? why not celebrate this nation's heritage and history? I still do not agree with (insert original nationality)-american. You all are just americans. Is that not good enough? must you really have any individual celebrations? why is American Independence day, which granted you the freedom to imigrate here, good enough? Why live in the US an celebrate Mexican Independence? If it means that much to you, why did you leave? why did you not stay there? I am sorry you do not get what I was saying, Patty. If you really want true equality, then individual "races" should cease further seperating themselves by insisting on thier own holidays, traditions, etc. Americans should celebrate american traditions. why is that not good enough?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land, Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Yay! Let's celebrate how we wiped out most of the Native Americans and kept the Africans in chains for nearly 400 years! Ireland, 1843: "Let's go to America, then." "No, let's stay here. I'm proud to be Irish." "But we're starving to death."

Those damned irish and their green beer....GRRRRR. My Uncle Bob Kelly, the monsignor, used to tell us kids that we were descended from the Kings of Ireland. Apparently, my family crest is the O'Sullivan Bears, and I am directly related to Ed Sullivan. Ed Sullivan introduced The Beatles, who were more popular than God. Since my Uncle was a man of the cloth, he had great inner conflict from this and drank Scotch whiskey, which was provided by the good parish women. As the sun we would set on beautiful Lake Spofford, he would tell us kids that "People are just no damned good".

I have family who came over from Ireland during the potato famine. His journal is currently kept by the historical society in Indiana. Wish I had the documentation to prove it was my relative and get the damned journal back to my family. I also have family who immigrated from Italy to Scotland. There is currently a town in Scotland named after this branch of the family and everyone in the town has the last name Gygi (the family name). I would love to learn more about that. On the opposite side, my grandparents met during WWII in the service. My grandmother was 100% german and fighting the nazi's. She was quite a woman. I would love to learn the background of that story, but all I have been able to learn so far was that she won a beauty contest when she was 18 and her head shots look exactly like me at the same age (even the hairdo). I like green beer! I like any beer!

the first europeans after the fall of rome to start taking slaves from africa were the portuguese around the 1400's. they were responsible for the revival of slavery. the first people to bring african slaves to the americas were the spanish in 1516. by far the most disgusting acts of cruelty perpetrated on the native americans were done by the spanish. they didn't just shoot them and take their land, but, in the name of the pope, tortured them. they were also responsible for the decimation of the greatest indian cultures in the americas - the aztecs and incas. not content with just killing people, they took the extra step of burning their literature in great bonfires because it was "the work of the devil." now less is known about those modern nations than there is about ancient egypt. as british colonies, america traded with many nations for slaves, but by far the biggest supplier was britain. the slave trade was an important part of the british navigations act and was run by the royal african company. liverpool, home of the beatles, went from a sleepy seaside town to a major city by trading in human flesh. so did bristol, though i don't know what the hell else their famous for. you get the impression from movies that americans were the ones going to africa for slaves, but we didn't have the resources to bring in thousands of people from africa. if americans were solely responsible for bringing slaves in, we could've managed enough for a few wealthy families; eventually, the practice would've proved too costly and would've ended. after america won its independence in 1776, it continued to trade for slaves with europe. in 1807, britain abolished the slave trade in england, but did not end the institution of slavery in its colonies until 1833. (the danish were the first europeans to end slavery, in 1792. you don't need slaves to make pastries.) america ended the importation of slaves in 1808. in 1865, the 13th amendment to the constitution ended slavery in america. the entire history of slavery on american soil spanned 349 years, 89 of which were america as an independent nation.

the amazon rainforest was planted by these early americans. it is as human contrived as los angeles.

I have always wondered about the end of the incan and mayan cultures. Too bad the books were burned. We probably could have learned a lot from them.

the europeans were the 'barbarians at the gate'. when cortez got to what is now mexico city, he came across a city that was the largest in the world. and clean. where you'd slosh through ankle deep shit in a european city, this city was staffed with people who kept the streets clean.

then again, a typical aztec sunday church service involved flaying people alive and tearing open their chests and offering the still beating heart up to the gods. i've never understood why the spanish didn't take one look at that and say, "hey, now THESE GUYS know how to run a religion. all this and chocolate, too. let's not wipe them of the face of the planet."

All I was saying is that it would be nice to be able to study more of their culture.

i think it would, too. i was just saying that you gotta take 'em warts and all. it was my impulse to add a downside to nate's upside. a people who gave the world my beloved corn tortilla can't be all bad.

"Yay! Let's celebrate how we wiped out most of the Native Americans and kept the Africans in chains for nearly 400 years! " You think that American's were the only ones that has commited atrocieties????? For Chrissakes people! GET THE FUCK OVER IT. I did not do a damn thing to indians or Africans. I am not going to spend my life appologizing for it. MOVE ON.

Yes, but if you want to celebrate your heritage, you can't refuse to claim the black marks on it as well, boyo. And for the record, Green Beer is an American abomination. And droop is pretty much right on with his assessment of european impact on north american indigineous cultures. I would recommend Eric Wolf's "Europe and the People without History" for more info, it's a damn good read. Besides the Aztecs and Incas, the civilizations of the American Southeast were highly decimated, mostly by disease but also by land displacement. Of course, they don't really mention the native civilizations that were present in North America.

"Of course, they don't really mention the native civilizations that were present in North America." O.K. so what civilizations are you talking about? As far as North American goes, all I have heard about are the "native americans" and in these there were many, many cultures.

further, sem, let's talk about lack of evidence.

all that stuff i wrote about the slave trade up there was sort of a cool down after taking part in a bbc "talking point" where i had the pleasure of reminding one "simon, uk" of his country's history in the slave trade. to answer cat's question: i don't argue here because i save it all for people i truly hate, like the british. the name texas comes from an indian word meaning "friends". it became "tejas" in spanish then "texas" in english. it was the name of a coalition of settled, agrarian tribes in the eastern part of texas. the most important tribe was the caddo. but nobody remembers tribes like this - people who live in villages and have crops and stable little lives. they know people like the comanche, nomadic tribes to the west who made war not negotiate and lived in moveable dwellings like tepees. they were more exciting in john wayne movies. this is the extent of my knowlege of north american indians.

Does anyone know anything about the Blackfoot tribe? All I have heard is that it is possible they are in Canada. I know that I am part Blackfoot, but that is all I know.

don't forget the cahokians. "cahokia was a flourishing population center and a city in every sense of the word when london was a few scattered huts. there were domesticated plants being put to use when the sumerians and egyptians were still fledgeling civilizations, or not even established." like, bitchin'.

Or the folks who built all those apartment buildings in the Southwest, or the Hopewell culture, or the Caddo, and so on and so on. You don't need to look and act like Europeans to be "civilized."

Come visit the cradle of Midwestern civilization...at Cahokia. Free lodging at the ssss's ... and Blackfoot can refer to a number of tribes. Bloods, Piegan and Siksika (Blackfeet tribes residing in Canada) "Blackfoot" can refer to other Indian groups as well. For example, the Cheyenne River Sioux are also known as "Blackfeet" in history. Also, there are some Cherokee and Choctaw people who intermarried with Black Americans in the early history of the United States, and came to be called "Blackfoot". http://aolsearch.aol.com/dirsearch.adp?knf=1&query=blackfoot

thanx for the link! Looks like some ancestry will be harder to find than the O'Cahanahey's or the Gygi's.

Cahokia is a great place, a place of prewestern civilization's mounds and barrows, a national historic site and state park. Wonderful multimedia presentation on what it may have been like to live in a very large city 1200 years ago, on the edge of the grasslands of the midwest, great rivers, mountains to the south, and a trading center for much of the western and northern hemispheres. Living here is like coming down out of the clouds to visit the ruins some forty minutes away. I don't have to go to the Yucatan or Macchu Picchu. It's all right under my nose over in Illinois. St. Louis, esp northern part of the city, was referred to as "Mound City" but most of the mounds west of Cahokia and the Mississippi have been destroyed in the name of progress. Most folks who live here don't have an idea of the area archeological significance. Here's a link: The Cahokia site is located in Collinsville, Illinois, and represents the most sophisticated prehistoric Native American society north of Mexico. Complete information the Cahokia Mounds Historic site is available at http://www.state.il.us/HPA/CAHOKIAM.HTM and http://medicine.wustl.edu/~mckinney/cahokia/cahokia.html I grew up in a white middleclass Appalachian community adjacent the Seneca Indian Rez in upstate New York.