as reports like this start surfacing, as this war takes shape and reveals itself to be largely as Bush has claimed it would, you really have to wonder about the motives of the peaceniks and protestors. ignorance and idealism are a nasty combination common to the extreme christian right and the extreme collegite left. mindless application of a simplistic worldview. inability to see the big picture. patriotism stirs in me today. americans are liberating iraq. risking their lives to help a people who could not help themselves.

now i'm going to have a hotdog and another beer.

Nate, you're believing the press without question? Now who's being naive?

nate, if they had knocked saddam out with that strike on the first night, my opinuion of trhis matter would be altered considerably. while ignorance and idealism are a nasty combo, im not sure you can make the argument, the peace movement, over all, is any more ignorant or ideal than the pro-war movement. so go eat you weiner and hang on. this thing ha just begun. for someone supposedly sooooo dangerous and such a threat to america, he hasnt put up a fight.

The threat the government has played up is not a military one, but a terrorist one. There's never been any question that we'd roll over Iraq when the time came.

you just jealous cuz i started suckin suds at quarter to eight this morning. no, tiggles. i'm not naively believing the press. however, i doubt it is that far from the truth. and it is really the only basis for anyone's opinion here. i don't think you understand, patty. i'm not going to argue this one with you.

well thats fine. im just not sure your big picture is my big picture and im unsure how much that has to do with ignorance or idealism. so your wine pallet went to shit. what are we having for beer? mickeys?

"while ignorance and idealism are a nasty combo, im not sure you can make the argument, the peace movement, over all, is any more ignorant or ideal than the pro-war movement" He didn't say that the peace movement was more ignorant than the pro war movement. He says that he wonders about their motives. Two different things there. No Saddam has not done much to fight back, yes we are holding back ourselves. This military action is much more planned and thought through than I dreamed possible. I expected it to be much worse than it has been already. I cry ever day. But at least I feel hope that in the end, things might not be as bad as I think. That's the only thing I can say for sure, that things haven't been as bad as I have feared them to be, and maybe in the end it won't be as bad as I fear. I know it will get worse before it gets better, but at least there is hope. Hope for the Iraqi people and hope for ourselves. I am so tired of people here telling others how stupid or ignorant they are. That the other just can't see the big picture. That "big picture" is SUBJECTIVE to each persons way of seeing reality which is proven different for every person on this planet. It is also based on each persons priorities. If you think that liberation of the Iraqi people is the highest priority then your view of the big picture is going to be very different from someone who thinks that our country and what is happening to it politically is the highest priority. We are all going through this and are effected by it in different ways and have different views (though there are those that are similar, none are the same) so it is really time to stop telling each other to fuck off and support each others ideas and thoughts. I am not saying agree, because there are some of us here who will NEVER agree. I am saying we here need to stop fighting each other and hurting each other, because this is effecting ALL of us. It's time to start seeing the good in each other here, since we all have it in us and have shown it here before. At least we can strive to come out of this better people than we were before it happened. A lot of you are only showing your ugly sides right now and it's so old. Same shit different day for the three years I have been here. Yet in spite of all of that I have grown to care about all of you, even the ones I disagree with. Oh fuck it, you are probably going to tell me how ignorant I am and to fuck off anyways, so why bother.

heh. someone came over with a twelver of sierra nevada last night and left about six behind. i still have a good jug of piasano. shit turns my spit grey, though. freaks me out.

I love you eri. Drop me an e-mail sometime, if you'd like to take anything off-line Anyone is welcome to do that.

Thank you Kazoo. You're an absolute doll. I am just really frustrated. I have no outlet whatsoever to express my feelings about this war and work through them, and all day long I have little kids asking me questions that I don't know how to answer without giving them my fears or coaching them to think like I do (I think it is important for my kids to think for themselves, I am just a guide, not the answer). I see people here ripping each other apart and being all ugly and I know that I can't discuss it here either. A lot of people here are too busy fighting each other and judging each other to just talk. I'm tired. I'm sad. I feel lost. There is a war going on in Iraq right now and the LAST thing I want to do here is fight. This is where I go to talk to friends who are distant, not here, not going through what I go through and therefore objective in different ways. Maybe the problem is that for once we are all going through the same thing and can't be objective with each other anymore. I don't know anymore.

i just watched the war coverage for the last hour on teevee. now i want to go suck suds.

I am totally out of suds. Oh well, I guess. I don't really need anything to bring me down much further right now.

we have about 5 more hours before this wave is over

you're such a wanker. you so have USAF-envy. you so wish you were in the cockpit of those bombers. spunk

why would I have Air Force envy? What do yo think I have been up to this week???? BTW, that is one of my favorite movies.

well, spunkem and I agree on somethings remember when homer did that? beautiful.

yup. I thought peter sellers did an outstanding job as the British officer, whom was quite right when he said the Americans had gone mad

because you drop little bits of "inside" info like you do because you so damn want to be a part. you so want to do more. its obvious. have you seen that skit on SNL...Will Ferrel and Shari Oteri as the Spartan cheerleaders? im probably not articulating this as well as I could, and I know im not the only one who sees this with the things you post about on-going activities and so called inside info you post about.

um, no inside info has been shared. everything I post can be found somewhere on the net

any "confidential", "classified", "sensitive", "secret" or "top secret" information would result in the NSA & CIA as well as DoD sanitizing Sorabji. I would not subject you or me to that. I have done the "sanitation" before, and it's not pretty. Low Level Formating does not even begin to describe it

I think we could all use a good "santizing." Well, some of us more than others. I'm pristine, of course.

i wasnt necessarily speaking of classified information trace. forget it.

no problem, be more then happy to.

trace loves Hitler.

WTF is your problem Tiggy?!?! For Chrissakes, spunky HATES Hitler, as do I, even though he looks like Hitler's perfect little aryan. WTF!

It's obvious. trace has been singing the song of fascism for months.

I am not going to say he is or he isn't. I don't really understand what fascism is and that wouldn't be right. Why do you have to be so harsh? So ugly? So mean? Why do you have to say things that you know are untrue and are hurtful? Do you even care that when you relate my husband to Hitler, you hurt ME? Probably not. Why should you care, right? I just have one last question. When you are on here arguing do you think you could possibly hold back from the rude, unfounded, and half of the time untrue accusations or assumptions? I would really appreciate it if you would be a little less of a prick.

"Do you even care that when you relate my husband to Hitler, you hurt ME? Probably not. Why should you care, right?" i do. obviously, i'm not above saying mean, uncalled for things. i regret so many things i've posted over the years. i figure i've also embarassed agatha countless times with my outbursts. trace is an easy target on this site. there are other places where he'd get a much better reception. hopefully, he's ok with being berated. otherwise, why come back all the time? maybe it's the same attitude i used to have when i'd get on irc just to see how fast i could get banned. unfortunately, when i actually felt like chatting, i'd get banned anyway because those people were different than i am and they were either too thin-skinned or just plain unwilling to play along. but i didn't lose sleep over the rejection. trace shouldn't either. and you, eri, shouldn't take it so personally. we're like - what - 15 or 20 people here? it's hardly significant that a few are a bit heavy-handed with the name calling.

Dave I don't ever recall you saying something here that hurt my feelings in any way. You have never been "on my bad side" so to speak. Nor has Agatha. I will also admit to making comments that I have regretted later, to one person in particular whom I have not talked to since. I just get tired of the ugliness in people. When I see it happening live on tv, it's hard to see here among people who are so intelligent. I guess it is my respect for the people here that makes it personal to me. When people you respect and have grown to care about say things so rude and harsh it sometimes just hurts or makes you lose respect. I didn't want that to happen here. So many ugly things are happening around us that I don't see the point in bringing the ugliness here. This is a place where we have been able to debate. People here make me think and feel and grow. Namecalling has always been part of the game, along with disagreements. I know that. I know it is a small group of people. I just guess that I am sensitive to rudeness in namecalling, when it goes beyond the normal bantering and arguments here, right now. I have always been quick to apologize when I have been too harsh with someone, and willing to admit I am wrong when I see that (and lets be honest, that has happened a lot). I try not to be rude to anyone here, while still being honest. I just wish we could all do that for each other in such a small group of people. I don't want to be afraid to come here, when I really don't have anywhere else to go.

i don't regret anything i've ever said. you're all assholes. you should be ashamed.

Ashamed of what? The tatoo's we don't have on our backs?

nate's personality is incapable of processing self-criticism. he has a big, fat ego cocoon that jams all nate-negative frequencies. right or wrong, he'll never know the difference -- it's all right! how marvelous it must be to be nate. rock out with your cock out, nate.

I disagree with your assessment of Nate. Our good opinion is important to him. Or at least, it's my opinion that our opinion is important to him. Just because he appears to be impervious, doesn't mean he doesn't take on a hell of a lot of water. I don't think anyone, who comes here for years on end, doesn't care. That's why I care so much for so many of you. You're cute.

Wow Cat, we are on the same page! How often does that happen ;)