http://www.godhatesfags.com At first I was mad as hell at the guy who showed me the link to this website. But then when he commented that it's better for us all to know what and who is out there, I thanked him. This is some sick twisted shit. Don't have any breakables nearby while reading it. When I get home I'll post a kind of rebuttal link, I can't remember the http now.

I think someone posted a link to that site here previously. Wasn't that the same page w/the picture of the girl in the snow w/the 'God Hates Fags' banner someone posted here after Matthew Shepard was buried? The point is to be aware & watch. And the best rebuttal link to that hateful spew is places like this

Yeah, R.C., or this: http://www.godhatesphelps.com/

Fags are cigarettes in the UK. Gives the place a surrealist slant when viewed by us Brits. I'm coming to NYC in a few weeks and am dreading the time I ask "where can I smoke a fag?" To be serious for a bit. It's the absolute certainty that these people have in their views which is indestructible. "God hates Fags", ummm, I thought that to know the mind of God was impossible for 'fallen' humans. I quote.. "Doesn't the Bible say not to judge? Yes. However, you may not understand what that means. It means not to judge unrighteously, it means not to judge using your human judgment, and it means not to judge hypocritically." Oh, thanks for clearing that up for us. Someone call all the religious scholars in the world. WBC has figured out what God REALLY meant to say. How do you argue or persuade someone who thinks they know the mind of God? I say you can't, so you might as well shoot them in the face.

"I'm coming to NYC in a few weeks and am dreading the time I ask "where can I smoke a fag?" LOL! Dear God, pls. don't Bag! No telling what sort of trouble you'll get yrself into. Then again/most New Yorkers are charmed to death by Brits. So save that line for the ladies. If it's men you're with/stick to asking where you can smoke a cigarette. But wait -- you're a foreigner. What can the local cops to do you but write you a tkt? Which you will leave behind in the nearest trash can as you board yr plane. I say/smoke w/impugnity any & everywhere!('Cept elevators -- no one can claim to be that ignorant). Esp. on the subway platforms (but not inside the trains). Smoke for Queen & Country, old chap! And be sure to e-mail Mark or Blindswine for a list of places were you can order Guinness Stout (bleeech!).

LOL... fags are also bundles of twigs, aka kindling. When I was younger my Grandmother was starting a fire in the fireplace and asked my brother and I to go out to the back yard and "gather some fags."

not all Baptists are like that. really.

oh I know... THANK GOD.. but thanks for the reassurance, Crawford. :-)

did anybody actually read this thing? if i didn't know any better, i would think that this was someone making fun of people like that. "The only true Jews are Christians. The rest of the people who claim to be Jews aren't, and they are nothing more than typical, impenitent sinners, who have no Lamb. As evidence of their apostacy, the vast majority of Jews support fags. Of course, there are Jews who still believe God's law, but most of them have even departed from that." what kind of nonsense is that? "christians are the only real jews"? hmmph.

But that's only more evidence that the Jewish comminty needs to get knee-deep in the asses of the Fundamentalists Christians! Christian fundamentalists are so hung up on the concept of Israel as God's chosen land & the Jews as God's chosen people that they won't even begin to examine the fairness of Israel's historical position towards the Palestinians. Israel in contemporary terms is a piece of real estate has changed hands a few times thruout the course of history. (Weren't the Palestinians the ones with last dibs/until the U.N. handed a portion of it over to the Jews 50 yrs. ago/to 'compensate for' our refusal to stand up against Hitler in a timely fasihion?) And no one seems to respect the Islamic claims to some of those same territories. Call me crazy/but there seems to be some sort of clandestine hands-off agreement btwn all the fundamentalist extremeists w/in these 2 religious groups. Fundamentalist American Christian leaders don't criticize Zionist Jews/& Zionist Jewish leaders don't speak out against Christian Fundamentalists. Or am I just relying on the wrong news sources?

Fuck the Palestinians, nobody should give a shit about these goat-fucking usurpers. For all you pseudo-historians, The Palestinian people were guaranteed a homeland in the Middle - East in the area now known as Jordan, at the same time that the Jews were guaranteed the Zionist homeland. The British created a phony homeland called Trans-Jordan as a favor to Arabian desert nomads for fighting the Turks in WW I. The so-called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan has no historical, legal, or cultural ties to the lands that they inhabit. Instead of kicking Hussein's ass out of the Jordanian thrown and giving the land to the Palestinians, the goofy A-RABS ganged up on Israel AND LOST. The silly bastards lost the Palestinian zones of control that existed up to that time. The PLO almost did wrench control of Jordan away from Hussein in the 70s but the Syrians saved his ass because they don't give a shit about the Palestinians either and just want to use them as pawns in the jihad against Israel. And no, I am neither a Jew or a fanatical Christian, just a pagan tired of feeling sorry for cowardly bastards that infect America as well as the middle east with this bullshit Muslim fundamentalism from the middle ages.

So how come the State Dept. & the NY Times never hire people like you? I'm sure I'm not the only one who isn't up on the history. But you explained something in 30 sec. that the news reports never bother to cover -- i.e. that the Palestinians have a legit claim to Jordan. So why don't they emigrate there to claim their 'homeland'/indtead of getting into repeated skirmishes w/the Israelis?

I wouldn't say it that way, and the details are obviously more subtle, but the general thrust of his staement is on target. I was affiliated with the League of Arab States in an unofficial capacity for a couple years, and it's pretty much true: none of the Arab or other Muslim states in the area give much of a shit about the Palestinians, they've just used them for their own purposes, mostly to batter Israel. It's pretty pathetic and ironic when the only government that's ever really done anything concrete to get the Palestinian people land and a form of self-government is that of "the Zionist entity". And as always, I'll close with a recommended reading list from my librar for those who are interested in knowing more than one gets from some guy like me raving on the Internet. The PLO by Jillian Becker is an informative history of that group and the times it came out of. Tribes with Flags is Charles Glass' account of his time as a hostage, but really more of the recent history of the Levant. Archie Roosevelt's scholarly For Lust of Knowing is a detailed personal history of the post-WWII era when most of these countries were being formed, and US intelligence and covert involvement therein. Do I need to make the standard disclaimer, I'm neither a Jew or fanatical Christian, etc.?

Hey RC., This is part of the same body of knowledge that is hidden to Americans concerning the legacy of colonialism, the exploitation of indigenous peoples worldwide and the sham that all the "isms" thrust upon an illiterate and morose population. Yet, if you look, the history is out there; like America's support for Ho Chi Minh and how his original declaration of independance is modelled after ours; or how the Vatican refused to buy Jewish lives during WW II, or how countries like Yugoslavia found their way on a map when there was never such a nation in history. Sadly, we don't pay attention to this stuff; we pay attention to ER; OJ; and Slick Willy. Turn of the tube and hit the books!! I have had the fortune to have had some brilliant educators in my life; one of which Dr. Leonard Jeffries of the CCNY, opened my eyes to a body of knowledge that has changed my outlook on life. Even as a white man who he derided in his class ( he is a black militant ), I would have never gotten that education if I didn't stick it out. The Becker book on the PLO is great. More for the reading List on Jordan and Palestine: A Quick an dirty guide to war: Dunnigan and Bay From Beirut to Jerusalem : Thomas Friedman And what Markus says is true: Israel has done more for Palestinian nation status than anyone including the millions of placard waving, flag burning camel jockeys has done so far. Thank God for people like Sadat that were a tempering influence. While you are reading up on this, research the legitimacy of places like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. You will be surprised what you find. The Israelis have done evil yes, but they have just as much of a right to the land as the so-called Palestinians. It's hard to negotiate when surrounded, and attacked over the years, and while your counterpart says he wants to wipe you off the face of the earth. Think about how that feels next time you have to shake hands on a deal or haggle in the mall. On the other hand, young dispossed people growing up in tent camps are not going to "play nice" with your kids either. I think about that every time I drive through downtown Newark.

is your name a reference to The Process Chruch of the Final Judgment?

It's a hair thing

Indeed it is my perceptive friend, Swine. Couldn't come up with a creative enough tag so I borrowed the name of what I consider to be a fascinating theology/philosphy that is not as crazy as one would have been lead to believe. Now that the connections to Son of Sam have been debunked, and that the Manson connection is also out the window, this movement's tenets are vary interesting. For the record, I am not a Processian, but I am a student of theology and philosophy and of the human condition. Has nothing to do with hair....Just lack of nickname creativity. Heed the messages my friends, what I have offered here is fact and I hope that the vehicle does not do damage to the thought.

interesting. based on what you have studied, would you consider this website to be a fair representation of the beliefs and philosophy of the process? from what i understand, the church fragmented in the early 80's, creating diverse groups ranging from the original de Grimston set to Genesis P. Orridge's splinter group. i saw a special on A&E kast year about the Son of Sam killings. the editors of that documentary seem to believe not only that Son of Sam was a pawn of The Prcoess, but that the organization's influence infiltrated the higher echelons of the NYPD. i'd be interested in hearing the other side of that story.

First of all, anything that David Berkowitz says must be taken with a truckload of salt. Evidently he did have some sort of interest in The Process but I believe that no more implicates them than it would the Yankees if he went to a ball game. I also saw that A&E special, which I consider to be one step above supermarket tabloid content, but it did expose a coverup to a murdered Village photog who was in the porno rackets and supposedly knew about all these Process connections. Truth of the matter is that I guess this is conceivable but I really don't know. Try this site as a better summary of The Process belief system. The web page that you indicate seems to display more of the original DeGrimston philosophy. For the record once agian, I am not now, or ever have been, a member of this organization, but I merely find this and many other religio-spriritual-occultish-theological movements an interesting representation of human belief systems. By the way, getting back to the original content of this thread, I personally don't have a problem with gay people being gay, but I think that they bring a lot of negative feelings their way by much of their own conduct. I am not simply talking about coming out of the closet. I am talking about acting in the flippant, devil-may-care, promiscuous, party animal fashion evidenced by some of the well known Sorabji personalities. Some people are laid back enough to disredard this mode of conduct, but others who take life more seriously, take annoyance and disgust to these actions. I don't condone violence but I do feel that if those type of gays acted a little more mainstream, they would not make themselves targets either. 2 cents contributed.

Excuse the improper spelling above, someday I will learn to type. Adios

Yr link was no good. Here's the URL: http://www.process.org/

Whoa. I didn't mean to get linked with Leonard Jeffries, Genesis P. Orridge, or anything else here. My point was simply that when ideologues start a pissing contest, it's time to head to the books to get the full and objective history, before sitting down to evaluate claims and remedies. Until I do that, I declare myself agnostic on an issue. I forgot the Friedman book. Good stuff. As for Yugoslavia, the nation has been in the Balkans since the dawn of Europe; the state dates back only to the end of WW I.

Markus, Where can I find info on the Yugoslav nation? I have never seen it on any map or mentioned in history anywhere until the end of WW 1. Even then, I believe that the original name was the Kingdom of the Croats, Serbs and Slovenes, which is a more explosive mixture than fuel oil and fertilizer. My understanding was that this so called kingdom was created out of former Austro-Hungarian territories and the independant countries of Montenegro and Serbia. My point here is that this is another relic of the imperialist age that has come back to bite us in the ass. As far as Dr. Jeffries, I don't agree with a lot of what he says but as an instructor he definately opened up new areas to be thought about and that is all I want from any teacher. I try not to let the methods obscure the message. The hate crap I could do without. Your point about being issue agnostic is a wise position and shows that you obviously think and care about what you say. Most people fire from the hip on a purely emotional reaction without the background knowledge. The information is out there and for the taking. More people should do the research instead of ranting and raving all the time about why their little piece of the pie has gotten smaller. We have the advantage of an open democratic society where the right to express an idea is a given. Unfortunately, that right, like so many others, has been perverted to to be the right to do and say whatever we damned well like without being informed on the topic. Democracy depends on literacy and informedness, not on hearsay and gut reactions. The Hatemongers are extremely guilty of this, as are all people who veer to extremes. It has been my experience that research and thoughtful examination of the facts usually show that both sides have a point. Nobody has the right to enforce or impose this point on others however. I still believe though that we do live in a society where the majority rules. As such, we are legally protected to hold wahetever minority views we like, but we should not try to force them on everyone else. In the case of the gays, I think this is what they try to do. I don't think that people care what goes on in someone's bedroom, but don't want to be confronted with it in everyday life. The same is true of communists, vampires, and muslim fanatics. Keep it cool, and be treated cool. Flaunt it and pay the price !!!!!

I was using the political science term nation as a group of homogenous people with common bonds culturally, ethnically, linguistically, etc. A state, on the other hand, is a sovereign governmental structure in the Western tradition that started with the Greek city-states. In modern Western philosophy, the two tend to ideally go together as the modern nation-state. But there's far from a one-to-one correlation. Ask the Kurds or the Canadians. For example, the Sioux nation never really had a state, which is different from saying they didn't govern themselves. The United Kingdom, on the other hand, is a state with several historically discrete nations in it, e.g. Scots, English, Irish, Welsh, et al. You are correct about the foundation of the modern Yugoslav state. The people who live there, the Southern Slavs, whether Croat, Serb, Bosniak, Montenegran, Macedonian, or Slovene, are all from the same group of people who settled there around the seventh century (it gets a bit murky back then) and share a common language and culture. The differences in dialects, alphabets, religions, etc. are rather superficial and stem from the Southern Slavs being split up and ruled by different empires in relatively recent history, primarily Ottoman or Austro-Hungarian. Finding objective information on Balkan history can be tricky, as history is the primary weapon in that contentious region. An old saying there is, "In the Balkans, the only truth is a lie." I think it is telling that at the beginning of the Bosnian war, one of the very first targets of the Serb mortars in the hills was the National Library in Sarajevo.

I'm with you dude, but I still have never seen mention of ANYTHING Yugoslav before WW 1. Even over the centuries as the area was contended betwixt the Ottomans and the Austro-Hungarians, I have seen mention of Macedonians, Albanians, etc., as nations, but still have not come across a reference to a Yugoslav. I don't mean to press the issue because I agree with your other points, but I am very interested in European history and would like to follow the Yugoslav nation back into time.

Sorry, wasn't clear. You're absolutely right, "Yugoslav", which literally means "southern Slavs", is more or less a political term of convenience that was formalized to give the new state its name this century. The main reason was that these people didn't really have anything to call themselves until the time came when they were fractured into Orthodox Eastern-oriented versions and Catholic Western-oriented groups, when they started calling themselves Serbs and Croats, respectively. Other groups got a geographic label, such as Bosnian or Montenegran. But until the time that this differentian occured, they were mostly just lumped under the label "the southern Slavs", since the disparate tribes lacked any coherent state or overarching unified tradition or conciousness outside their regional groupings, unlike the Russians, Lithuanians, or Poles with their kingdoms. Others got lumped into this catchall "southern Slav" label as well, such as the Slovenes, who are closely related but who by now have probaby developed into a separate nation; the minority Albanians, Hungarians, and Greeks scattered throughout the region, who aren't even Slavic; and the Bulgarians in the area, who are, but aren't related to the Yugoslavs. The terms are all pretty subjective (who's a southern Slav and what are the precise criteria and who decides?) and records of early history in the Balkans less extensive than in Western Europe. I'll try to find some decent overviews in my library when I get home, but none come to mind presently. One book that does illuminate the current debacle by only discussing the past is Robert Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts; in fact, that's his main thesis, that to understand the present and future in the Balkans, one must not only look at the past, but perhaps solely at the past. Rebecca West's Grey Lamb and Black Falcon is high octance stuff about the interwar period when the kingdom/state was being founded, written contemporaneously, but it'a a massive tome that can be hard slogging at times. She was one of the few outsiders to really understand the Yugoslav mindset, and had some penetrating insights. It's good to find someone who's interested in real history of peoples, not just the "great man" type of history that Tolstoy derided. I would certainly like to study more myself. I'm just shooting off the top of my head here, and it's been a while since I did any real reading. Reading back over this post, it's pretty sloppy and incoherent writing; my apologies, I'm at work avoiding a project and keep almost getting caught by the boss popping into the office. (Thank God for ALT-Tab). Also, my condolences to the rest of the board for boring them at great length, in THEIR definition of hell.

You've also got some other interesting points which reward further exploration, such as the one about Ho Chi Minh, before the most foreign and foul French got us sucked into their colonist tarbaby in Indochina and it all went down the shitter for everyone concerned, most particulary those who live there with the consequences. It's popular with a certain crowd to speculate what the world would be like if Hitler or the South had won, but I find it more interesting to wonder what could have happened if we hadn't supported the last oppressive gasps of the dying French empire in the Far East, both for this country and that small part of the world.

I am WAY impressed.

So you're an American right? And you know that "outside America" exists right? And you know about history and stuff right? so you're an *American*??????

I may be a little dense but what's your point? What is an *American*? I learned a along time ago not to agree to anything I don't understand. Markus has already apologized to the uninterested so I hope this is not some sort of derogatory remark in disguise. Explain your question and I will be happy to respond.

Perhaps a reference to the illusion of a United states citizen being an "American" - so is everyone else in the western hemisphere. Here's a great book to add to your reading list: Europe and the People without History. It odes a great job of explaining the interconnections in history, pretty much focusing on the period of European expansionism and the ways the people it affected reacted to it.

I still don't get the point. People born in the United States of America have commonly been known as Americans over a century and maybe longer. I do realize that a Mexican or a Paraguayan or even an Eskimo can be an American by virtue of birth in the Western Hemisphere but these nationalities all have their own distinct identity. We European descended usurpers do not have any other moniker but American (except for deragatory terms like Yankee etc. ) and I don't think that the indigenous ones would rather be known as American instead of their actual nationalities. I searched the text of this page for the usage of the word "American" and I maintain that's its usage was correct and not denigrating to any one else. If I am mistaken, please correct me. As for the rest of the content, I stand by my statements and encourage refutation.

the name gives it away. the poster probably chose the name "shattered prejudices" because he/she was impressed by Markus' and The Process' knowledge of foreign socio-political history. americans are generally thought of as ignorant, self-absorbed oxpeckers by much of the outside world. i guess between Markus and The Process, two americans who don't come across here as uneducated and ethnocentric, "shattered prejudices" prejudices were, well... shattered. anyway, that's my take on it. i could be wrong.

That's how I took it.

That's how I meant it. It's as far to gushing/complimentary as us "superior" Brits are allowed to come. Our prejudices are the only thing which keep us feeling more than a pimple on the arse of the world. Still, we'll only completely lose them when you stop calling anyone who wins an American sporting event "The World Champions". As far as the slaughter in Kosovo is concerned it just shames me. Britain's hands are as bloody as anyones when it comes to Yugoslavia. We've been acting like an upper class CIA and now we don't want to know.

many mexicans don't like americans to refer to themselves as such. "but we are american too," they sometimes explain. eventually I started referring to myself as a "norteamericana" or "estadosunidensa" or whatever, although I was always taught that mexico was part of north america, and the official name of mexico starts with "los estados unidos" as well. in guatemala, honduras, nicaragua, el salvador, etc., no one seemed to care about such distinctions.

Thanks for the clarification and the support everyone. Well, Mr. Bagpuss, far be it for me to be the one to criticize, but your glorious Brittania is perhaps the singular most horrible example of what colonialism has done to the world. The early American ( wait a minute, United States of American ) settlers were mostly descended from English/Scotch stock and also brought the colonialist expansion mind set with them, hence Manifest Destiny. I come from Italian descent and my people were in the hills of Genoa growing tomatoes at the time, so I feel exonerated from "owing" the blacks or Indians a damn thing. I blame it all on you "crackers". The whole European expansion thing stems from the desire for "Lebensraum" although it was not quantified as such until Hitler did so. Various political and religious excuses were used by the European colonists but the truth is that they were land poor, people poor and resource poor nations that only could find a way to succeed not by co-operation but by co-opetition ( if that is a word).It is unfortunate that this whole thing happened, but it did and we will continue to pay the price for years to come. Why shouldn't we use the "World Champ" tag. I hate to bring up history, but I wonder how WW I and WW II would have turned out if the Yanks didn't go "Over There". My opinion actually, is that we should have listened to George Washington and stayed out of European wars and foreign treaties. As far as Mexico goes, yes officially it is part of North America as is Central America itself but I think the common cultural bounds with Canada make for the North American thing.

I'm not even going to reply to the WW2 thing. Us Brits know we're the scum of the earth when it comes to colonisation. And "scotch" is a drink. It's "scots". Oh, and thanks for making me feel superior again.

Actually, if I had to be colonized, I'd definitely choose the British Empire. Look at all the former Brit colonies and how they're doing (working economy, democratic government, independent judiciary and civil institutions, rule of law) and then compare the former Portuguese, French, or Belgian colonies.

they say that spending time nurturing domestic animals like a dog or cat will greatly reduce stress and tension.

heh.

Wanna dog? My neighbor's dog just had pups. I think they're Yorkies. As far as being an 'American' goes/I was born here/but I still don't feel like one. And IMO/if you weren't born in this country as the child of a WOMAN who was a legal U.S. citizen (by birth or w/a green card)/you have no right to claim American citizenship. Think abt it -- if I'm pregnant & visiting Paris on vacation or business/& I happen to go into labor & give birth there/why shd that make my kid French? "If yr cat has kittens in the oven/do you call them biscuits?" I don't understand how it is that women who come here illegally (esp. to certain hospitals in FL) specifically for the purpose of giving birth in the U.S./shd be able to claim that their kids are 'Americans'/therefore they must be allowed to remain in this country?! I know it sounds racist as hell/but living in a coastal city in FL for the past 4 yrs.has shown me that illegal immigration is not just some knee-jerk Republican xenophobic issue. When people come here w/out a pot nor a window/ unable to speak English so their employment prospects are limited/get on the Social Services tab/& start having babies/they are utilizing resources they have no rights to. Becuz they haven't contributed anything to the pot. In many cases/they work off the books becuz they're illegal/so they don't pay taxes. They send a large % of their earnings back to their homeland to support their families/& they're poor already/ so they con't contribute much to the economy. (You shd see how many of those Western Union offices & flat-rate overseas phone call centers there are in Tampa! Who do you think are their primary customers?) They rent rather than buying homes/becuz they have no credit histories/so they don't pay property taxes/which provide funding for the schools their children attend. Why shd I be for that shit/when low- skilled Black American workers are forced to compete w/folks willing to work for sub-minimum wage? Do you think those employers are going to spend the extra $$ to hire American citizens when thay have such a large illegal immigrant labor pool to tap? Even if the illegals only work for a few months before getting busted/the $$ their bosses save on payroll taxes/Soc. Security & medical insurance more than offsets the gov't fines. Granted/its' Divide & Conquer'. But I'm a tribal woman -- I'm for my people first & foremost. When my folks were marching & demonstrating /getting our asses kicked & going to jail/in the 1960's to win our rights as Americans/Latinos & Asians & Eastern Europeans weren't sneaking into the country in droves to stand next to us & say "This ain't abt Civil Rights/It's abt Human Rights!" It wasn't until the 1980's/when the gains of the Civil Right's movement had truly come to fruition on a large scale/that illegal immigration began to skyrocket -- esp. from 3rd World countires. Not a whole lot of anybodies were trying to be the New Niggers in the U.S. before that. Yet I'm supposed to be for blanket amnesty & welfare & social security for illegal aliens? And Markus -- Colonialism didn't do SHIT to benefit Africa. Or India/which still has one of the lowest per-capita incomes on the planet. Becuz the caste systems in both of those countires never allowed most of the native peoples to rise very much above the level of Head Nigger In Charge. Wd you wanna be a brother living in Bengal or Cape Town today? Puleeze. Wasn't it Frederick Douglass who said "Power conceeds nothing w/out a struggle?" No people in the history of this planet have been handed their freedom from colonial oppressors -- they have had to fight to the death for it. And the 2nd or 3nd generation colonialist may look just like a native. If the Mexcicans are tired of living under a kleptocracy & sick of U.S. companies opening factories within their borders that don't pay U.S. min. wage/they need to rise up & fight against that shit -- rather than sneaking into America & expecting a handout. In China/dissidents get thrown in jail for sharing e-mail adresses from pro-Deomcracy groups w/Western allies. But they don't stop fighting! Becuz most of them don't want to leave China for the U.S. -- they want a better life & better rights in their native land. Which they deserve. Why shdn't everyone be willing to make that sacrifice/to fight those battles?

Alone?

Was it marx who said... "In a heirachical meritocracy, somebody has to be shit" R.C. If you think the reason low-skilled black workers do not have jobs is because of illegal immigrants, then pick up your clubs at the 1st hole. The way I see it, if my taxes are being ripped off by a few pounds a week so some Blue Peter-watching, tory voting, nazi saluting arms dealer can get rich then the few pence it costs me a week to pay for these "dole scrounging" illegal immigrants ain't gonna make much difference. And the "they come over here and steal our jobs" argument is tantamount to the "some of my best friends are black/gay/Welsh" spouted by all middle class plastics the world over. I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm saying that you're fighting the wrong enemy. (I almost didn't reply to this 'cos I thought it was a troll. But I'm in a shitty mood.)

Hey Bag-- It's time to shovel...that means I have snow here, dammit!

eh?

If you are coming over to the States, you have to shovel the snow.

I think the first "yugoslavia" was a kingdom set up with a serb ruler (king alexander) in 1929. it comprised serbia and croatia and I don't know what all else. mexicans who live in the states do contribute to the american economy. even if they're sending a large part of their incomes back to mexico, they're doing it, as you mentioned, via western union -- an american company. western union charges a minimum of $50 for an international transfer. also, most of them may rent apartments or houses, but the property owners are paying taxes for the schools and such. expenses such as property taxes are figured into the amount they charge for rent. and many mexicans are trying to make their country a better place for poor people to live, and they're paying for it with their lives. the mexican government supplies military weapons to pro-government groups in chiapas, who then massacre zapatista villagers. if I were a mexican who lived in a border town where american companies came in and set up huge factories that didn't have to meet american environmental standards and barely paid their workers enough to scratch out livings in the clapboard shantytowns next to the chemical-filled rivers, there is no question that I would try to escape to the north too.

I realize I am in over my head and should not try to enter a discussion about balkan history. after world war I, the croats did not succeed in their attempt to have the country be named "yugoslavia" and was instead called, as someone here mentioned earlier, "the kingdom of the serbs, croats and slovenes." in 1929, when king alexander dismissed the parliament and instituted a royal dictatorship, I assume he kept the name.

Brings back memories. Back in '85 I worked for this little landscaping company. Most of the work force were mojados (their word not mine) from Mexico, but I remember one guy who was from Nicaragua. (You know, I love when I listen to the BBC World Service and hear those English reporters saying "nick-are-ag-you-a). They would live in these run-down rent houses, or else they would sleep wherever they could on the lot behind the office. I remember getting to work early one morning, (say around 5:30 am) and watching all of these guys appear out of the cabs of trucks, sheds, or a sunflower patch. Very few of them spoke english, but all of the supervisors spoke Spanish. I remember spending some time with a guy named Pedro trying to teach each other our languages. He was from little village way to the south in Mexico (he drew a map of Mexico in the dirt one day and pointed it out) and had what I took to be Mayan features - the flat face, large nose, slightly asian eyes. He was intelligent, curious, had a sense humor; all of us white folks thought he'd make a fine Amurican. Immigration carted him off in a raid one day and we never saw him again. Those raids were always interesting. On one of them, while it was still early in the morning and kind of dark, all of us white guys got piled into our supervisors car and ducked down a little like we were hiding and drove off so the Migras would follow us while the everyone hid. We finally stopped at a 7-11 and were surrounded, badges were flashed. I think I began this in order to say something useful about the illegal immigrant in the U.S., but I've written too much and I've lost my train of thought. I will say that no one ever gave me the impression that they were stealing jobs or taxing the economy. By the way, I've learned never to say "the states" when referring to the land of the fee. I said that around a Canadian girl once to avoid saying America, and she said, "that's just like an American to assume you're the only states." Too much coffee.

Hey Bagpuss, You are absolutely right,Scots is the correct terminology. But don't be too sure about that superiority thing just yet. Britain's greatest days were during it's Mercantilist period where they didn't invent a damn thing, they just sailed around the world looting, pillaging and burning. Juxtapose that to American ( alright, United States of American ) history where actual innovations were introduced and the Industrial Revolution flourished more than anywhere in Europe. To this day innovation continues in the high-tech fields. What exactly are the Brits contributing to anything except for the planes to help bomb Saddam. ( Which by the way , we do appreciate. You think the traiterous French would do the same after all the US has done for those fucks. ) Truth of the matter is sadly, that as I maintained earlier, the early settlers where all descended from the "cracker" mindset and brought slavery, exploitation, and the rest with them to the North American continent. And to India, S.Africa, Australia et al. And Markus, I do not believe that to be colonized by the British was so good after all, because the puddin' heads in London illogically drew colonial maps that suited their own greed without considering the indigenous nation-states. Hence, East and West Pakistan; Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia; Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda; and on and on. R.C , you are damned right about people staying home to fight their own battles. American capitalists just LOVE opening the doors for these sorry bastards to flock in exactly because they will work for peanuts. Not a single foreigner should be let into this country until EVERY person here has an education, a job, and eventually a chicken in his pot. This whole NAFTA thing is equally disgusting in that it lets US companies maximize profits by operating out of the US so we can get cheaper bananas fertilized by pickers shitting in the groves. But you can't fault immigrants already here for working hard and owning businesses while some of your brothers are drinking Night-Train and playing craps on the corner. A little incentive goes a long way here regardless of what the bleeding heart liberals or Black racists say. I will relent a bit about my comments about WW I and WW II. It wasn't so much to save the Brits or the French that we went over there, but to create our own imperial hegemony in Europe. Ditto for Stalin. But the end result was that we whipped the Krauts. Do you think the Brits could have done it alone, with about 10 tanks and 40 machine guns left in the country after Dunkirk? Or should I call you Herr Bagpuss going forward?

The ww2 thing - look it's a running joke in this country about the fact that the USA only turned up late into the war and that only because of the cash that was involved, yet you guys claim to have won the thing. As far as "winning" the war is concerned, only Russia can claim to have done that. Without the Russians we would have ALL been fucked. (apologies to any non-russian soviets). Enough of that. "No immigrants until everyone has a job and an education." There will never be a time when everyone has a job and an education. There's no profit in it. At least we gave most of our colonies back. Admittedly, considering the genocide that Britain has committed in the past 100 years we should still be paying. But hey, my country's better than your country nah nah nah nah nah.

Pink Eye, Is it gonna be REALLY cold? Snowing?? Stranded??? Plane Crash???? Shot in the head in a crack deal gone wrong????? Beaten to death by a gang of teeth obsessed dental fascists?????? "but I only wanted a fag" "shut up you queer!" <bang> I'm scared.

Above post is An example of why we all know that the Limeys are drunken inbreds.

OI! Less of the drunken. I haven't drunk alcohol for ten years. My sister was a really great shag though.

If foreigners feel they're gaining something by coming here to be explioted economically/they can come. But go thru the process & do it LEGALLY. So they will have earned the right to be here & the benefits that come w/American citizenship or resident alien status. That's all I'm saying. If my pregnant, non-Spanish-speaking American ass decided to sneak into Mexico tomorrow w/no $$/no place to stay & no skills/cd I show up at a local charity or social services office & ask for free clothing? Or food stamps? Or housing? Hell no! I agree that there will never be a time when every American has a good education & a job. Capitalism precludes 100% employment/becuz then the workers wd have more clout than the corporations. But sneaking into my country is tantamount to breaking into my house/raiding my refrigerator/laying up in my bed & having a baby/then telling ME you refuse to leave when I come home & catch yr ass becuz yr child is a U.S. citizen! If the intruder is a Night-Train-drinkin' jobless Black American woman/the cops will haul her ass off to jail for breaking & entering. But if she's an illgeal alien claiming she'll be persecuted if he's returned to Cuba/Mexico/Guatemala, etc./& she's had a kid here/then she gets to stay while our gov't tries to verify her claims?? What kind of sense does that make?

What the fuck? Benefit of the doubt, innocent 'til proven guilty, all that freaky bleeding heart liberal shit. If a thousand illegal imigrants claim persecution and all but ten are lying then you do it for the ten. There but for the grace of God and all that.

All I wanted to say was that, as far as illegals from Mexico, I'd have done the same thing as them. And as far as I can tell, I'm the only one who's ever met one. talked to him. had a joint and some cerveza with him. Those individual guys do what they have to. More power to 'em, I say.

i think it's a little less cut and dry than you are making it out to be, rc. the illegals are just doing what they need to do to get by. i think if you were in the same situation, you would do what you needed to do to keep your head above water. if we need to blame anyone, it should be the corporations that are the reasons the aliens come over here in the first place. why do you think that the fruit farms have an anonymous tip to border patrol put forth in september, when all of the fruit has already gotten picked and the farmers have gotten what they needed out of the mexicans? it happens every goddamn year here in washington state, and the mexicans still come because the options for them to make money in mexico are so limited. we need to be more aware of where the root of the problem truly lies, in order to understand the whole cycle.

yeah. northwest produce is expensive enough as it is. I'd hate to see the prices if those were all americans picking them apples.

cyst, how long have you lived in seattle? i just moved to olympia from seattle about six months ago. i miss the city, then again, i don't.

I'm not saying it's cut & dried -- what I'm saying is that whether you're picking fruit or moving lawns or sweeping floors/EVERYONE deserves a livable wage. But the days of being able to get by as an unskilled laborer in this country have been are OVER. If you come into another country illegally/you aren't in much of a position to demand yr legal rights. And yr willingness to work for sub-standard wages creates a vicious circle of employers willing to expolit you becuz you're locked into short-term-survival-mode & need to make a quick U.S. dollar/becuz you fled yr country/where the gov't. is nothing but a kleptocracy run for the benefit of the ruling class. Illegals working under the table for less than min. wage do themselves a disservice /their children a disservice/& make shit harder for poor Americans as well. If they stood up & fought against the local corruption in their own country/if their local newpapers ran front page stories every wk. abt the guns the Mexican gov't bought from the U.S. & gave to gov't supporters in Chiapas so they cd execute the anit-gov't Zapatistas/if they protested against the World Bank & the IMF & the U.S. to divvying up Mecixo as their own private little interest cash-cow/if they picketed every American-owned corp. that pays Meicans 60 cents a day to make sneakers & clothing that sell for a fortune here/if they stood up & fought & marched & died for the rights they deserve in THEIR country/instead of sneaking over the border/they cd secure a better future for their children. Did you see the newsmagazine special (48 hrs. or one of those shows) a couple of months ago abt the Mexican family from Texas? Two parents who never married each other/yet had a bunch of kids (6 or 8) together. And every year/the father wd pack up his family in their broken down van & drive them all to FL in Aug. to pick produce. His kids wdn't get back to TX to school until well into Oct./or even later in some years. When they 1st got to FL/there were no crops to pick. Their $$ nearly ran out/& they had to resort to soup kitchens & food patnries. Once the yfound a farmer who wd hire them/the fahter let his 10-yr-old son work in the fields -- & - he KNEW it was illegal! He told the reporter HE was the father & he wd decide what was legal for his children to do. That taking them out of school to pick produce was "teaching them how to survive in the world" ???!! And for nearly 3 mos. work/by every member of his family older than a toddler/they ended up earning about $1700. Becuz the farm owner 'miscalculated' their wages (the father was illiterate -- his son had to check the figures). Which the reporter later pointed out. Finally/the farmer mailed them another check for another grand or so/once they were back in TX. But their van was so dangerous to drive that at one point/it actually caught fire -- & this father let some of his children stay inside the van/had them dumping water on the dash/& opening up the hood from outside/to try & put the fire out!) He put his own children at risk day after day/to make a buck/when they cd've stayed in Mexico in the 1st place & lived just as badly. Twenty yrs. fron now/that 10-yr-old will be in the same morass his father is in now. Becuz the man doesn't even have the foresight to tell his kids "Stay in shcool -- you can get a good education in America. And that is yr pathway to a better life!". SO what will he have accomplished/by bringing his family here illegally -- other than teaching his children how to become wage slaves & work like mules til the day they die/just like their father? I know that neither our gov't/nor our corporations/give a shit abt poor immigrants. But they need to wise up & realize that they are doing themselves more harm than good by immigrating here illegally & doing shit-work at shit-wages/rather than fighting the power sctructure in their own country.

RC, You're posts are sounding like these immigrants are nasty stupid foreigners who are too dumb to live in America. As far as the popular uprising that you seem to be calling for, the last I checked, you don't get shot in America for critisizing the gov't. Why don't you "stand up and march and die for their rights?". why do they have to do this? Why is running to your country not an option. If you don't want them in your country why don't you "stand up and march and die" for them to stop? "These people" are you and me and everyone. I feel lucky that I live in a country where my education and my health are provided for and above all my "oppurtunities" to live a decent life are still around. I don't know what I would do if this wasn't the case, but high-tailing it to somewhere better would be in the top five. But, you might be right and the repblican party and "sixty minutes" and Rupert Murdoch are all telling the truth. There again...

*Sigh* Look, it it's just one woman's opinion. But no matter how the U.S. tries to deal w/the problem/we're villified for it. If you stop 'em at the border or in the bay & send 'em back/you're considered heartless. If you round them up within U.S. borders & toss them in interrment camps while you try to sort out who's really persecuted & who's f.o.s./you're violating their right to due process (becuz it takes so long for their cases to be heard). If you pass laws making illegal immigrants ineligible for welfare & food stamps & Sec.8 housing/you're racist. I'm for all those measures. And I don't care what names I get called. I've turned the issue over & over in my mind enuf times to realize that EVERY immigrant group that has come here has had to fight & struggle/learn a new language/ educate themselves/& strive for better things for the next generation. But the Europeans &/until recently/most of the 3rd world immigrants who came here did so WILLINGLY & LEGALLY. My ancestors were brought here in chains against our will/had to fight just be recognized as human beings under the law/still have to fight in the courts to avenge ourselves when we're brutalized by the or discriminated against in the workplace. And we have to keep proving ourselves every time the sun comes up. But the generations of Blackfolks that made it thru slavery & Jim Crow did so w/out welfare & food stamps & gov't assistance. But if we had fought harder & been more organized back in Africa/if we had stood up to the powerful among us who were willing to sell out their own people for the sake of the Western $$/maybe so many of us wdn't have ended up here in the 1st place. If the curent immigrants fought harder in their homelands/maybe they wdn't end up here either.

agatha - I lived in seattle for four years in the early '90s, while I was dropping in and out of (and dropping acid at) the university of washington. I grew up in portland, my favorite little shithold in the whole world, and usually live there when I am in the states. maybe this could go in another thread if you feel like responding at all, but why did you move to olympia? I've been told there's not much life there outside the evergreen state college and k records offices, and even that only if you're under 25. I like the old downtown, though it's tiny. the capitol theater is cute, and this there's this ancient restaurant with a maritime theme. I think the bar is called "the pirates' cove." that place, with its wonderfully deep vinyl booths, is like a time machine. when larger cities' (portland and seattle) downtowns get all fancy, those places are the first to close. remember the dog house and their organ player, dick dickerson? have heard that even the cloud room was renovated. that whole area from olympia to aberdeen is growing so fast, with the new intel in thurston county and all that other development. I used to want to start a zine called stp, all about the I-5 corridor between seattle and portland. do you know about the big egg? the world's largest egg is in one of those crazy towns near longview. I'll ask my friend who told me about it which one, in case you're ever driving through and want to see it.

RC, this country has created these refugees, economic and otherwhise, by supporting what you so aptly called "Kleptocracies", and by supporting genocidal puppet governments all over the world. Our tax dollars paid for arms to Pinochet in Chile, to genocidal regimes in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia, Haiti,and, well, Jesus, nama a country in South or Central America (not to mention the rest of the world) and we've spent more money fucking the people there than it could ever cost to let the refugees into this country. This country was founded on the idea that people could come here to escape persecution and make lives for themselves when their countries were too poor or repressive for them to have any chance. Now, the American Dream may be pretty threadbare, but it's better than (U.S.-funded, trained, and often staffed, may I remind you) death squads. I salute those brave souls who are willing to stay and fight to free their countries from genocide and hopelessness, but the US is paying for the guns to kill those same brave souls, and I can understand somebody wanting something better for her child than a US made bullet. (I, personally, have been struggling with this issue, fearing a return to McCarthyism in the wake of the CIA's decision to try to restart the Cold War, so it can start persecuting Socialists again) The Universal Declaration of human rights (UN 1948) guarantees any human being the right to leave his or her country. Not worth much, is it, if there's nowhere to go. Your attitude seems to be "I've got mine, Jack, fuck you" My great-grandmother was pregnant on the boat to this country. I don't know whether she came in legally or not (This country's government was not very friendly to Jews at the time). She spoke little English. She was fleeing persecution. Had she not made it into this country, she might not have lived long enough to give birth to my grandfather. How is that her emigration was valid, but that of the Latinos and Haitians who are also fleeing persecution, the only difference being that their situations are a direct result of U.S. foreign policy, is not? You're right about the scapegoating of immigrants, it is divide and conquer. The problem with this country is that 2% of the peoplee control 90% of the resources, and they're pointing fingers and saying "Look at these people. They're taking part of your 10%", and they're keeping you distracted from the identity of the real enemy by blinding you with race-baiting. Maybe the problem is that you see this country as a land of milk and honey, to which you are entitled, and they are not. Firstly, it is not a land of milk and honey. There is a lot of fighting and marching, and sometimes even dying (the US may not be executing dissidents at the same rate as it was, but it's still doing it) to be done to make this country what it should be. The other issue is whether these people are just taking away your jobs, or whether, maybe, even though they don't look like you/ speak like you/ speak English at all, might just be good enough to be our allies. Or do you feel that somebody has to have established middle-class roots to be a valid spokesperson for the proliteriat, rather than a "parasite"? Have you forgotten who the real parasites are? Have you forgotten how much more money is spent on arms and corporate welfare than on the welfare of real human beings? Sorry about the poor format, I don't have a lot of time to completely go over this, but I felt I had to speak.

All I can say is/when the roof is leaking on yr house -- regardless of how the whole in the roof got there -- you don't fix it by going to stay at the neighbors. I don't get to determine foreign policy. Neither do you/or the immigrants who come here. But everyone all over the planet seems to be smart enuf to figure out that the U.S. backs coups to put dictators into power that favor America's interests in the Thrid World. These dictators then proceed to help themselves to the treasury as fast the U.S. foreign aid $$ comes in. They create a police state & let the military brutalize their own people -- even those who aren't political -- to create a climate of fear that keeps everyone in check. And it continues until the people decide to rise up & off their oppressors. How hard wd it have been for a Haitian revolutionary to have organized a hit on Baby Doc? Or better yet/Papa Doc? Aristede has come & gone/but conditions are no better for the Haitians. Becuz the Duvaliers looted the treasury before they left/so there was no $$ left to accomplish anything with! Ditto w/the Marcoses in the Phillipines. Sneaking into the States only improves the lives of the few who make it here & manage to make a living/until the INS catches up to them & deports them. (And to my mind/illegal immigration is akin to breaking into someone's house. There are LAWS that regulate these things. The fact that someone manages to break the law for years before getting caught doesn't mean their behavior is any less illegal.) If the people who risk death everyday living under corrupt dictatorships or trying to sneak into America/ were willing to stand up & risk their lives to assassinate their puppet leaders & install the people they want to lead them/the IMF & the bankers who control the treasury deposits wd have no choice but to hand over those funds & let these people build their own future in their own countries. What cd our gov't. do -- make them give the $$ back? I'm not saying this is possible everywhere. I don't think it cd happen in China. But in Haiti -- I think it wd have worked. Ditto for the Mexican border states that have been turned into maquiladoras by U.S. corporations. Let a couple of those plant managers get their heads blown off by employees who are tired of working for $3.00 a day/& you'll see unions springing up overnight. Every oppressed people I can think of in modern times (i.e. the last 300 yrs) have had to stand up & fight on their own turf/to make any real progress in this world. Leaving their homeland never solves the problem.

I salute those corageous individuals who choose to fight to change the governments in their countries. They did that in Nicaragua. You remember what the U.S. did? I'll give you a hint, it didn't involve foreign aid. The other thing that I need to challenge is your idea that immigrants are a bad thing, rather than an influx of allies. 2% of the people in this country control 90% of the resources, and they are dividing the rest of us by playing racial politics and saying "Hey, look, those people are taking part of that pittance that we leave the rest of you (which is still more than we leave the countries that the U.S. exploits)" Why? To distract us from the real enemy.

since people started coming to America, each group that's been around for a year becomes suspicious of "those immigrants" some of us just got to the party sooner

I agree wth that,ask any Native American.

there is no such thing as a native american.

so, to be a native means you evolved there?

I,m not EVEN going to go there,thats a ride I can,t take.

is an american indian a native american if he never sets foot in the western hemisphere? i guess native americans could exist, but how many generations of americans do you require behind you before you are one?

It goes against my better judgement to continue this, but.... Given the peripatetic nature of the human species and its abilities to adapt to any enviroment, we really can't claim native status (in some distant biological sense) in any continent except for Africa (as I am led to understand, ask Semillama). That leaves us with culture as a factor. The cultures the grew up in the Americas after humans began crossing the Bering land bridge are certainly "native".

i'm gonna email David Duke and inform him that he's an American African.

You Earthlings are pathetic. I can't wait until we land the mother ship and take over this place. What a waste of real estate on such an inferior form of life! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

When you take over, will we be "native earthlings"?

I,m gonna tell my mom!!!

"Earthlings" is a pejorative term. I prefer "Geodwellers."

i don't know what pejorative means.

rockroaches galore infesting this lump of mud totally creepy

The only reason the term "native american" is silly is because traditionally, aboriginals don't really recognize border lines. Meaning there's no difference between a Canadian, an American, an Australian....whatever.

canadians are americans. aboriginals probably recognized the pacific as a border between the americas and australia... but that's just a personal theory of mine.

Pejorative = demeaning, insulting.

thanks.