Mail-For: <sarah@syrup.org> Received: from web301-mc.mail.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:23:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Sutton <lordibelieve@mail.com> To: sarah@syrup.org Subject: Christ! Hi Sarah, I'm Jim. It's a wonderful thing to have good gifts. More wonderful than receiving them, is the use of a good gift, the pleasure of pure, continuing enjoyment. I remember the first and only new bicycle I received as a 9-year-old boy, back in Houston, Texas. The image of that bike by the tree was wonderful. But the daily pleasure of riding that new bike, and standing next to it in the sun, and showing it off to all my friends, that was far better than I had ever imagined it would be. Sarah, you have a good gift in expressing yourself in words on paper. This is a gift from the Maker of heaven and earth. Hate Him or love Him, embrace Him or utterly reject all thoughts of Him, He is your Lord, nevertheless. And you find pleasure, meaning, and some measure of personhood in the use of His fine gift to you. And it was for that pleasure that He gave you such a fine gift. How much better, then, to acknowledge the Lord with your gifts. Do not waste precious days and nights burning the candle down as fast as you can. Look up. See the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. You know more about Him than you want anyone to think. Give yourself back to Him, as He has already given Himself for you, and you will find greater pleasures, greater meaning, and a "real" to your life that you have not yet known. I have been where you are, but you have never been where I am, at complete rest and whole in Christ. May the Lord Jesus put His hand on your spirit and regenerate you to genuine life and insight and truth. Seek that truth, if you desire truth, in His Word. Bless you, Sarah. May all joy and peace be yours both now and forever. May you see the life you keep searching for in pleasures. May you understand reality before all life is suddenly left behind. It happens, always, sooner than we think. Love in Jesus, Jim in Montana. Jim & Becky Sutton lordibelieve@mail.com ************************** i sorta feel like kate winslow in that movie Holy Smoke.

Aha! Now I see a most advantageous reason to live in Hawaii! Its very very far away from Montana.

i lived in montana for a year right before i moved to hawaii. go figger.

funny... i started thinking a lot about religion a few weeks ago. so one night after i finished a book and wasn't yet tired i searched through my box-o-crap and found my old bible. i opened it up to the new testament (which my friend sarah always raves about as being so cheery and wonderful) which i'd never tried to read. i'd read the old testament and found it more than a bit frightening. i started reading matthew. i felt at peace the first night when i laid it down and shut off the light for bed. the next night i laid down with it to read until i was tired enough to sleep. the second night was not as pleasant as the first. jesus started preaching and saying all kinds of stupid stuff. damnation for those who do this and that. minute little things. bastard. i'd been boardering on agnostic, and now i feel as if i have jumped over the line. the christian god sucks ass, this i've always believed... now i believe that jesus isn't so cool either. after my grandfather died i wrote this used to be friend that i knew who was really religious to tell him what i thought god sucked. you might have heard of him. his last name is phelps. maybe you haven't. his grandfather is semi-famous. fred phelps.

oh fuck we get press releases from those assholes daily. fred "god hates fags" phelps fuck that guy and anybody related to him

read ecclesiastes - i'm not a believer, but i've always loved that one. almost ancient hebrew existentialism. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill, nor man mayonaisse to nate's ass; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

'i read a couple chapters, now jesus isn't cool' don't have much to say about this except i don't think i would decide that about say, an ex-president or any historical figure after reading part of a book without much truly critical thinking. 'i think god sucks' just somehow doesn't cut it for me

God is one of us,I hear he,s a slob like us and he rides a bus some chick named Joan told me,she said he was good.

why i'm suddenly irritated upsets me. i guess that you can't possibly read my mind. damn it. my only exposure to jesus is not the few chapters that i read. how would you know that though. i was forced to go to church throughout my childhood by my mother. i rarely find a christian that i'm not completely irritated with. my friend sarah is the exception and sometimes she borderlines. she is so acceptable because she doesn't like christianity. she thinks that christians are hypocrites encluding herself. of course everyone is a hypocrite at one time or anther, but aww... the christians can't admit it. bastards. i was sitting in a waiting room in the hospital while my grandfather was in ICU. This lady was all smiles as she was talking to her visitors. "George (Daryl, whatever it was) is going to another floor today. (smile) I know that God was looking out for him. We prayed and prayed. I know it helped..." Bullshit. i never asked you if you could or couldn't "cut it" with any of my ideas on religion. if it doesn't work with you fine, but i can think god sucks if i want to. it's my choice if i want to end up in some "hell" or where ever it is that not believing in the christian god will get me.

yup but you're irritated because i was irritated and therefore being irritating. i am actually not concerned about where you stand on religion- it was just your flippant (sp?) tone that i found.... naive?

precisely. i find him not worthy of the time and energy to explore using such words as flippant in order to grace him with my intelligence. i am so humble in comparison with the followers of the great and powerful christian god.

Why I care, I don't know. I don't even know what I'm going to say, or if I'm going to say it right, or if what I say will be listened to, or if I'm going to mess everything up by trying to straighten things out. But I'm feeling reckless, so here goes. A) There are an enormous number of people who profess to be Christian who are, in actuality, anything but. They like to quote Scripture and tell everyone how sinful they (meaning, others) are, but they demonstrate none of the love and compassion that is central to being Christian. Sometimes, whole "Christian" sects develop and teach large gatherings of people things that are quite explicitly opposed to the actual teachings of Christ [see Crimson about this one if you'd like details]. Moreover, considering that there are innumerable Protestant denominations, as well as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, one would be most foolish to judge Christianity as a whole on the basis of one's own experience with one sect during childhood. Because I can tell you that what a Quaker experiences and what a Catholic experiences are entirely different cuts of meat. 2) Take care that you don't regard agnosticism and atheism as interchangable constructs. They are not the same thing. 3) Funny, I always thought being loving and forgiving was pretty cool. 4) You say your mother forced you to go to church when you were a child. You have previously described your mother as being what I would call meddling, dependent, and altogether unpleasant. You have also described feeling unable to separate yourself from her. Perhaps you are rebelling against religion as a substitute for rebelling against your mother. 5) Education is key.

Maybe you, Bell_jar, need to find "Bob". It's been a while since I've posted that link. Perhaps more slack will be accrued to me.

"Look up. See the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ." When I read that, I imagined looking up Jesus' asshole. A little window into my... soul... or whatever...

I'm with Rhi. The preachings of love and compassion do make sense. It is unfortunate that many have abused the Christian religion and twisted it into something bad. None of the Christians I know are hardcore. They respect my preferance for a religion other than Christianity, and don't press it on me. I was baptised Greek Orthodox and followed the faith for twelve years. Then I decided I really wasn't interested, fluttered back and forth, and am now without any particular faith. I went to church in Ireland. I was across from Christchurch Cathedral. I really enjoyed the service. I didn't take Commmunion. I thought the sermon was excellent. I don't say I don't believe in God--I do, I'm just uncertain about what form to worship him in. So no dissin'.

again, i forget that my mind can't be read. my grandmother drug me to a methodist church while i lived with her. my mother's second husband was a jw and we had to abide by those teachings while she was married to him. then she married a catholic man, and my mom really went gung-ho there. i dated a guy who was baptist for a year or so. of course i can't judge all denominations, but i uhh... yeah i have a good grasp. i know what agnostic and atheist are and how they differ. i can't seem to shake the feeling that something is greater out there. perhaps i rebeled agains my mother in high school, when she forced me to go to confirmation and i went through the actions, but didn't swear my life to the catholic church. now... i think it has to do with me. i can't connect with the christian god. i don't have the desire to do so. loving and forgiving is "pretty cool" i find that you don't need to be christian to do that. in fact, i find it easier to do it when you aren't christian. i went through a super religious phase in high school before i did a 180 in my thoughts and beliefs. i went so far as to desire to be a nun and to pursue the idea. i didn't find much forgiveness in my friends who were christian (different denominations still) unless the person asking forgiveness was a christian. it seems pretty messed up to me. education is the key. no denying that. i'm not so thoughouly educated on the subject of religion, or rather christianity as a lot of people. i hope to continue to learn from the religion. i want to find a religion/belief that suits me. i know that christianity is not it, and i'm so naive to say that i believe this decision will continue life-long. i do want to become more tolerant though.

many people hide behind the words of their religions, yes.

You seem to be hiding behind something yourself, Heather... Regardless, while Christianity is not the religion for me, I do respect people who have chosen it, since most of them respect me. I think it is unfair to categorically refuse kindness to a group of people simply because of a religion they practice. That's acting exactly the way you accuse them of acting. Praise "Bob."

This just seems like the place to put thisI married my first husband when I was 18(dumb)had Amee and divorced real quick.He made my life a holy hell,then he remarried a very "Christian" woman.She lied in court for him,cut Amees hair off one summer,and I later found out she was very mean to her,but thats another story.I saw her obituary in yesterdays paper,after my ex got custody when Amee was 11,they divorced,and he remarried.So I,m reading it,I can see she was 14 years older than me,she died alone,in fact she died on April 14th and they aren,t having the service on the 29th.At one time in my life that would have made me so happy,but I don,t,just pity.

isolde- what? explain please what might i be hiding and what is it hiding behind? (i really am terribly interested, being somewhat self-absorbed- no sarcasm intended) email me if you want

WEASLES!!!!!!! yer hidin them damn weasles!!!!!

the weasles hid by themselves i only provide the shipping crates and piles of discarded gum wrappers

I was kind of irritable and misread so I thought you had said something you hadn't. I realize that it was Bell Jar who said it and while you might have aquiesced, you probably weren't. And it's such an innocuous phrase anyway. I just get irritated with this endless spouting off about Christians. And I'm going to get some sleep now.

damn, i'm disappointed. no- i wasn't spouting about christians i had questions for bj myself but i like the topic- go see my thread

J, how did she die? Did the obituary say?

Nope,I wish it would have said,contributions go to her church.

that won't get her into heaven, if it indeed exists.

wow. I've read ecclesiastes three times today. my first, second and third times. I much prefer the king james version to the new international version or whatever the default at the bible gateway page is. I wrote to my friend about it this morning. ("it's all about us! but we need to work on an interpretation together. I say it's a time to embrace, not to refrain from embracing.") ok, I didn't really say that. he had quoted philip roth to me ("all really is vanity"), but it's actually the old testament! I realize now that everyone has read ecclesiastes. philip roth, william shakespeare, edith wharton, agatha christie, the fucking byrds. which book should I read next, droopy? I feel dumb.

So I'm not Droopy. Read the Psalms. Lots of good imagery (e.g., "their throats are open graves" -- Psalm 5:9) and there's one for every occasion and mood.

Nothing matters in the end. Why even bother? We're born, and we die, and the world goes on without us. One day turns into the next, and then the same again. The wind blows back and forth and back again. The rivers flow into the ocean, but the ocean never fills up. Life is a glorious cycle of song. Yeah, right. Everything seems like so goddamn much work. And, I don't know about you, but it never seems worth it. I always want more, more, more. Please. And it's always the same. It's all been said and done before and will be again, I'm sure. I mean, is there anything you could point to and say, "Look, this is new!" I doubt it. At least I've never heard of anything original. It's so hard to have an authentic experience these days. And just as we don't remember people who have died (or even those who live still, even our friends, neighbors, families), later on no one is going to remember us or anything we did or didn't do. So what I want to know is why anyone fucking bothers. I've been around, and I've seen the things people do. And it's all meaningless. I find so much lacking that I can't even start to explain. Everything sucks, and I can't do a goddamn thing about it. I've thought about myself a lot and decided that I must be the wisest person ever. Why else would I be so goddamned depressed all the time? Must be because my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. I have wanted know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: Fucking pointless. For in much wisdom is much grief: and the more I learned, the shittier I felt. So I said to myself, fuck this. I am going to go out and have fun, just do whatever I want all the time. Maybe that will be reason enough to live. (Guess what?) People are dumb. And pleasure can't be sustained. I tried cheering myself up with wine and acting crazy (while still thinking things through and living that phony self-examined life). I wanted to see what was worthwhile for us to do during the very few days of our lives. I moved around. I read books. I planted tulips. I picked berries. I hired a seamstress. I fucked around. I bought cute little dresses. I let guys buy me lots of things. And I lined up a lot of cute boys. I became greater by far than anyone before me. And still through all this my wisdom (my sorrow, my grief, my despair) stayed with me. I denied myself nothing; I refused myself no pleasure. I was pleased with myself and all I had done. Take a look at me, I am really something. But it was all meaningless. I hadn't really done a fucking thing. I thought about wisdom and madness and folly. It's all been done before. No one's that interested. But I guess, really, it's better to be smart than dumb, don't you think? I know so much more than they do, the stupid sheep. But what the fuck difference does it make if we all end up dead? (And we will.) I told myself, whatever happens to all the idiots I know, the same is going to happen to me. What do I gain by being smarter than they are? Then I told myself, that this also is vanity. No one is going to remember me and how clever I am and how funny and smart and pretty and wicked, just like no one is going to remember all these people I despise. This will all be forgotten. (As if anyone cared already.) We're all going to die. So I hated life. It's so fucking pointless. I hated everything I had ever done and would ever do. Anything I should ever have would just be left behind to whoever came after me. And what would they be like? Why should they inherit anything of mine? They surely won't be as great as I am. So I started to despair about everything I did. Even if I did everything with wisdom, knowledge and skill, what's the point? What would I ever get for all that work? All my days are pain and grief, and, hey, so are my nights. But who really gives a fuck. All you can do is eat, drink and act like you're happy. And not even so much of the first two if you want to look good in little dresses. To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. And guess which one I am. (More on that later.) This is also vanity. I don't even want to go into this part. You know. To everything, turn, turn, turn. A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing. Enough of that. Why bother with any of this? (I hope you don't think there's going to be an answer at the end.) The world can be pretty. We know our time is short. All we can do is try to enjoy what we have. Because the sad truth of the matter is never going to change. Remember? We're all going to die. We're just animals. Everything is menaingless. All is vanity. I think we've been over this before. I spent some time feeling sorry for the oppressed. There is no one to comfort them. Then I thought about the oppressors. They have no one to comfort them, either. The dead, I thought, must be happier than the not-yet-dead. But happier still are those who have never had to live at all. And I realized that the best work and achievements are done when you want to look like you're better than everyone else. (But it's all meaningless, don't forget!) God, it sucks to be alone. At least people people can commiserate. I've fallen and I can't get up. Help. Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? God. What am I saying? How can I go on like this? A fool's voice is known by multitude of words. It is better not to promise than to make a promise and not fulfill it. Do not let your mouth lead you into sin. Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. If you see oppression and injustice, do not be surprised. Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. So what's the point again? Frustration, affliction and anger. This is our lot. Accept it and be happy. Maybe you won't think much about the pointlessness of the few days of your life if you can pretend you're happy. I guess I'm trying to make myself feel better. Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth. That sort of thing. It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool: this also is vanity. Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? Because that's a dumb thing to say! What the hell do you know about times long past, anyway? And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. I think they're talking about me. (All is vanity.)

Just one man's opinion: try Psalm 139, 1 thru 18...enjoy. Then read Job for the hell of it. No pun intended. Then read Jung's commentary on the Book of Job. Ruth, Titus, and Galatians are fun and necessary too. Then the Celtic Inramma (Voyages) and the Bahagavita in the important parts. Then Joseph Campbell - anything - but specifically the Masks of God. Holgar Kalweit comes next. With this you are then ready to sink your teeth into Nick Bantock's The Museum at Purgatory. Take a year to savor every image; just like reading Revelations. Good for the art if nothing else; then Blake's Heaven and Hell, especially for the art. Before Milton or Dante. They're mostly all the same story. It's just you, and me, and personal responsibility, and knowing that this time spent here is small, tiny, and some days pointless, but the only thing you and I have at the moment...except each other.

ii did a bible search engine once on torturechamber, but never linked to it, because it really sucks (as search engines go). Ecc1:1-12:14

one time in my life i read ecclesiastes over and over for weeks wisdom is not grief

I read the bible about every six montha or so. Although I admit I do gloss over parts/

I haven't read the bible in years. I used to paste subgenius ads in Revelations in the Gideon Bibles of motel rooms. Does that count? I'd be interested in some of the Gnostic Gospels myself. Of course, nothing contains more hidden wisdom than The Book of the SubGenius and Revelation X: The "BoB" Apocryphon. I mean it. You need to read them over and over again on the toilet to get the full effect.

The Byrds didn't write Turn, Turn Turn (though they may have read Ecclesiastes). Pete Seeger wrote that song. Sometimes I think my knowitall thing is just beyond annoying. Other times I figure it's just the cross I have to bear. It's genetic. I'm serious. Yesterday I told my boss "If your first thought is that I did this wrong, you need to think again. Always."

I took a class in Gnosticism last year. If you're interested in learning about this, remember that there is pagan, jewish, and christian gnosticism, and they all say different things. I would recommend the gospel of Thomas and the fragments of Philip if you're interested in christian gnosticism. Philip was widely revered during his time as an excellent teacher, and his writings are very clear and understandable. He has this one analogy that I've always liked: the heart is an inn, and sometimes demons come to stay at that inn, and when they do, they make a big mess. It's not enough to drive the demons out the inn, you have to clean up the mess too. But if you would really like to exercise your mind, find one of the gnostic writings on the creation of the world.

Hairesis, man, hairesis.

When I went awol from Good Shepherd Home for Girls,I found out through a friend that my dad had cancer or I would have never been caught,but I went home to see him,my mom called the cops and bingo,I,m back at the girls home,in isolation.A very small room,I could stretch my arms out and touch both walls,pitch black,I was in there for 15 days before I got an out of state release.Back then kids had no rights,it was inhumane how I was treated,after about a week I finally convinced my jailor nun that I could read,if I laid on the floor I could see light through the crack between the door and the floor,she gave me a bible.I,m sending Agatha a picture of it,it,s a strip mall now.

life is suffering. right? anyway, cyst. i got an email from my best friend here in honolulu. we worked together for three years. we spent a lot of time together, in the office and out. and that wasn't enough, so we email each other too. she and i spend more time together than she and her husband do. she's taught me a lot. and i love this woman. i'm completely in love with her. but that's not the point. i actually just realized how much in love with her i am when i was typing the above paragraph and thinking about her. i think i'll go buy her flowers today. anyway, she wrote to me this: "You just cannot imagine what beauty is waiting to happen Sarah, so instead just give beauty give beauty give beauty give beauty give beauty give beauty." and it's not original or profound or even particularly meaningful. but it reminded me of something fairly basic that always grounds me when i'm feeling all existential and numb. and that is that, sometimes i think the only thing that matters in this world is to leave it a little bit better than before you arrived. even if that means just picking up a piece of litter in the road or making someone smile one day when they're feeling bad; and doing it not out of vanity, but out of genuine beauty. i don't know. just a thought. i would never suggest that you give up all that other stuff.

that reminds me of a line from a wodehouse story i once read - "whenever i find myself in a foul hole like [this place], i say to myself: 'how can i make this a better, happier foul hole than when i arrived?'"