last thursday night I went to a gay disco in barcelona with a gay male friend. when he went to the bathroom he got propositioned by a cute catalan man and followed him into the "cuarto obscuro" (dark room), where they made out. when he came back out, he told me he had never seen anything like that in seattle and that he had always imagined san francisco would have been like in the 1970s. I just got done reading armistad (?) maupin's "tales of the city," which is about '70s san francisco, and while no disco dark rooms are mentioned, there's a similar setup in the bath houses. I was wondering if there are any dark rooms in gay american clubs anymore. are there still bath houses where men can have sex, or has that all been gone since aids?

there was a bath house named "club z" on pine street in seattle. it was right across from a leatherboy hangout called the "eagle bar". i lived down the block next to the convention center. whenever i'd walk by the place with a woman, there would always be a bunch of guys shaking their hips and telling me i was "looking for love in all the wrong places." that shit was downright freaky.

did you live in that crazy old apartment building that was practically underneath the freeway? and wasn't there an old porno theater called something like the red apple on that section of pine street near the eagle? it recently closed.

yeah. i lived in "the town house" from '95 to '96. crazy old building is right. the halls were always dark and eerie, and my neighbors were all tweakers. a week after i moved in the office guy warned me not to be surprised if i ran into a dead body in the elevator, because that happens sometimes. "too many smackheads in seattle." they renovated that place back in '97. now it's an upscale yuppie crib with a pool and fitness center. my $550/mth two bedroom apartment (#607) probably goes for about $1000 now. and the lights in the halls probably work now, too. i applied to be the night manager for the red apple after i ditched ATTWS, but they never called me back. so much for all my plans of throwing late-night parties in the place after the bars closed down. i bet the red apple would still be open if they hired me. i woulda had the ducats rolling in like mad. i can't wait to say the same about the catholic church when it crumbles. i sent the vatican my resume and a cover letter detailing all the reasons why i should be appointed Pope. they haven't called me back either.

you can get fucked all you want by strange men at club seattle. there is actually a room with black painted walls. not that i have checked.`

piccolo mondo. my acting boyfriend was one of your "tweaker" neighbors in that building in 1995 and 1996. crazy tall guy with long blond hair, physics ph.d. student at the time. if you lived next door, you would have heard nurse with wound through the walls a lot. I've asked him which floor he lived on.

In Phoenix just off the I-10 there is the Flex Complex,it,s a gay bathhouse and it,s been around forever.It,s open 24 hours a day and you can drive by it at 4,5,6,A.M. and it,s packed.My best friend is a gay man and I went with him once but the bastards wouldn,t let me in so we left.There are plenty of gay bars out here and we even have a gay resturant Pookies,you don,t have to be gay to go there.I haven,t been to the gay bars in years except for a few minutes,a few years ago to write some creeps# on the wall.My friend stopped doing the bars,years ago.In fact I remember him telling me about Aids before they called it Aids.I wish he could hook up with someone cause he,s really not much fun anymore,getting all set in his ways.

if he lived next door to me he would have heard lots of funkadelic, maceo parker, and james brown coming through the walls. that and me banging on the keys at all hours of the night. i don't remember any crazy tall blonde haired guys. there was a crazy short dirty blonde guy who used to hook me up with herbs and other dubious substances, but he was hardly a rocket scientist. he was married to the building's assistant manager. they had a little bulldog named "haggis". and the more i think about it, it might not even be the same building. all the apartment buildings down there were sketchy. the town house was on hubbell street, the cambridge right next door, and then there was another crazy old place whose top floors popped up over 8th avenue on the other side of the convention center. my dates are wrong, too. it would of had to have been december '94 to late summer '95.

No wait a minute I was just plain lying. The truth is my boyfriend lived there and all we ever did was Fuck and shoot up. Oh, hang on this is Tucson we're talking about right?

my friend lived in the cambridge, not the town house.

mmm. haggis. there is a movement in SF to reopen the bathhouses. they are currently against the law. oakland, berkeley, however.

Swine - Sorry, the reason you never got a call back is that I got the Vatican gig. Just waiting for the current guy to get promoted. Got some great plans for the Sistine, coincidentally involving some mad afterhours parties. I'll let you know; we'll be looking for a DJ.

How about a go-go dancer with a slightly potbellied meatmobile but a genuinely fabulous rack? Oh, wait, never mind. I want to be the pope, too.

Margret,you have got me calling myself a meatmobile.

Not that I'd know these sorts of things, but D.C. has two gay bathhouses, a handful of nude go/go boy bars, a gay porno theater, and an establishment called, affectionately enough, The Glory Hole. My guess is, sex goes on in all except the bars, and one can never be too sure.

meatmobile = cunt. i think you all are using the word wrong. either that, our you're a misogynist's dream. there used to be this great gay 'club' in SF called the Inferno. Maybe it's still there. lots of glory holes. i mean. so i've heard.

Nate, make up your own words. Don't make my meatmobile dentata rend you and leave you staring at the bleeding stump.

seems to be a lot of that going around these days...

Well, y'know, I have a sort of a story about that. Not really, but sort of. (1) Fear of castration is, according to Freudian theory, a fundament instilled in little boys as soon as they realize something is UP with them that isn't extant on little girls, or mommy, or daddy's blow up doll, or whatever. Psychological mythos has it that they fear that little girls and mommy were once little boys who were mutilated by the father. Jeepers. I had read all this stuff, I thought it was bunk and I had read it, so I wasn't taking any chances when: (2) my nephew (who was, at the time, 4 years old) walked in on me bathing at my brother's house. I didn't kick him out. He indicated my crotch and informed me "Daddy says boys have a penis and girls just have a patch of fur." I said "really?" He smiled and said "yeah." I did not tell him that I used to have a penis, but I was bad once and his daddy cut it off. I thought about it, but this was flesh of my flesh and I couldn't go through with it. I chastised my brother, in front of his wife and my nephew. Everyone (including me) was laughing so hard we almost wet ourselves.

you should have told him that you used to have a penis, but santa claus, rising up from his watery home via the toilet, sliced it from you and devoured it. not because you were bad, but because you believed in god. you could have quickly instilled: 1) a fear of christmas, malls, consumerism. 2) a fear of toilets (a great practical joke to play on your brother.) 3) a fear of faith, belief, religion. 4) interest for future therapists. ps. do you really have teeth there?

Nate talking about glory holes. Yes, Virginia, there *IS* a Santa Claus.

Oh,I thought meatmobile meant something else.My friend Jimmy Sue used to go to some glory hole at Phoenix College,God knows I love Jimmy Sue,but he was one crazy son of a bitch.

when I was little I told my 4.5-years-younger brother that he wasn't supposed to have a penis, that it made him a freak and that he should just let me cut it off. I also told him that my parents got him from the dog pound and if he didn't start behaving himself they were going to take him back and trade him in for a nice golden retriever. I grew up thinking that I had been very mean to my brother until I found out that a friend had ganged up with another brother on the youngest brother and held him down and stuck a carrot up his ass. I think sibling abuse must be one of the most underreported problems in america.

When I laugh it makes my side hurt. Golden retriever. Oh my god. Woohoo. I love stories of younger sibling punishment and I'm going to hie my ass over and start a thread. Oh, Cyst, you have made an otherwise dreary Sunday.

i put an end to sibling abuse by breaking my big brother's nose with a fist to the face and cracking three of his ribs by mercilessly kicking him in the side until his friends dragged me away. it's all fun and games until your kid brother goes bezerk.

Damn straight. My relationship with my older brother was changed forever the first time I kicked hell out of him. We were both shocked, sitting there feeling like the natural order of the universe had been violated. And then he ran off.

hey swine, here's what you missed out on next door at the cambridge (long quote from my friend's email): yeah, that apartment next to the cambridge used to be a real dive. worse than mine was, i think. the apt across the hall from me was a big drug center. the guy who rented it said he only drank (which may have been true since he was constantly drunk) but every now and then the medics would show up cause some friend of his would o.d. on heroin. XXXX burned out her apt (and that was what got her tossed out of the apt building) after having flooded it once after plugging up the overflow drain on the tub and then passing out on the bed. and once leaving her aluminum coffee pot on the stove and leaving the apt only to have it melt all over the stove. there was a crazy woman that lived next to me for a while and they tossed her out cause her apt was a 'fire hazard' - aparently there was loose paper covering the entire floor a foot high or so and junk everywhere. and lots and lots of roaches that would work their way to my place. that same woman wouldn't open the door of her apt if anyone else was in the hallway. she would stand by the door and tap her foot on the door from the inside until you left. i also knew a guy who was in an 'industrial' band who did 'sculptures' with spray paint and melted/burned plastic. his apt looked liked a furnance. the corner apt on my floor was temporarily a huge crystal den. no one ever slept there. however, it was a cheap place (seattle housing resource group building).

my brother would put me in the rollaway sofa and fold it up as fara as he could, i also caught him masturbating and every 8 year old joke made was mmet with a charlie horse to match.. he also made me have "sex" with his friends watching in the woods, he was 14 or so, I was 6 or so, the girl was barely 12, I ownder who has greater issues, me or her

I use to chase my brother around the house with the vacume and told him it was gonna get his dinky,he,d cry everytime,snot crying.I,m 2 and a half years older than him.When he was around 15,I,d visit my mother and noticed he spent alot of time in the bathroom,I,d stand by the bathroom door and tell him I knew what he was doing in there the sick little bastard.I still don,t like him.

the boy is gonna have issues for sure

You guys were some cruel kids to grow up with! The worst thing my brother ever did to me (other than blackmailing me into doing his housework whenever he caught me sneaking out of the hse.) was hit me in the face w/a doll & cut my eye. For which he was soundly thrashed by my Moms. hehehe...

Made you have "sex"? What the heck???

ah..sibling abuse..what a wonderfull thread.. if only i hadn't blocked out all those memories, i'm sure i'd have a story to share, as well.. my brother now takes credit for the fact that i can stand up to people because of all those years he tormented me....hmmm...he thinks he's the one that made me a 'stronger' person??

well let me clarify Gee.......it was a matter of making me the six year old boob to lay on top of this 11 year old girl.......and him an his croonies getting alugh while passing the bowl...I had a rather sick and sadistic brother.... my brother also claims he made me me the man I am by pitting me against my good friends in boxing matches he also stole my skateboard for 6 months when i left it in the yard to "teach me a lesson" ............

Oh. That's not buddies.

who said anything about buddies?

I have one of the worst sibling abuse stories around. My brother was 9 when I was born, making him approximately 10 years older than me. He used to make me "kiss it." He said if i wanted him to touch me, I had to kiss his. He wasn't my biological brother, but still. Also, when i was around 11 he used to have my best friends suck his cock with me in the room listening.

that is absolutely wretched. i'm sorry you had to experience that.

yea, it sucked. I'm getting therapy (for everything fucked up that has ever happened to me) but I haven't quite gotten around to tell my shrink.

At yr next Thanksgiving gathering/why not just righteously clock him & announce to everyone why you just clocked him? It will be very cathartic & save you a fortune in therapy bills. I have no personal experience in this area (thank goddess). But I really do think that if most women were able to confront their abusers & let 'em have it/there wd be a lot fewer screwed up women in this world. He was old enuf to know that what he was doing was wrong. He doesn't deserve any slack.

Oh Jen,for some reason I want to be your mother.You listen to R.C.!!!

uh, when your 11 year old friends were sucking his cock, wasn't he 20? you should just have him arrested. there is no statute of limitations on sex crimes.

i need therapy

I had therapy,was in the nut ward for a while till my shrink got busted for molesting his patients.The fucking quack.

Are you sure abt that Nate? Here in FL/I think the Statute of Limitations for sex crimes is 7 yrs. I cd be wrong/but I imagine most states don't treat sex crimes that same way they do murders -- i.e. no time limit for bringing charges.

sex crimes vs. a minor, no statue of limitations.

Gotcha. I guess it's only adult rape victims who have to worry abt filing charges in a hurry in FL. Which has more rapes per capita than any state in America.

I heard that Alaska and Nevada were tied for this "honor". And when I heard this, I was told that the citizens of Alaska and Nevada also purchase the most pornography compared to other states' citizens.

I read that in a USA Today in the dentist's office a couple of months ago. I cd be wrong/but FL was #1 on their list -- maybe it was for rape-cum- murders. I cd see Alaska having a lot of rapes/ becuz there are so few women there/even a handful of rapes wd make the #'s skyrocket proportionally. But Nevada -- home of the Mustang Ranch brothel? And w/all those hookers in Vegas? Sounds spurious.

I had blocked away the whole molestation experience until about a year ago when I started therapy for attempted suicide (and becuase my grandma thought it was going to help me come out of my 'gay' stage). I had also been molested by a girl who was 2 years older than me when I was about 9. She told me that she was my best friend. There weren't any other kids in the neighborhood. So she's like, oh it would be cool if i could spend the night at your house....bla bla. And it turns out that the guy that lived next door to her got put in prison for molesting her. She came from a bad home too. Anyway, my brother and I always got along (besides that one part) becuase we had a common enemy- my dad. He like to hit me and ground me for months at a time. My mother always seemed to be two-faced. One day she'd be siding with my father the next she'd be all great and good. I really don't have much contact with my family anymore. I live with my mother's mother, and they don't get along. But I still hate my family for what they've done to me, becuase I am now a victim. It's very plain to see. When I was fourteen I had a 17 year old girlfriend and I cheated on her with a 23 year old, she broke up with me and That night I screwed around with a 19 year old. I'm 15 now and I've done drugs, drank, done sexual acts (although surprisingly i've never had sex. I pride myself on that) I've cut myself up with razors... overall self-abuse fest. But I'm going to get through it. I know I will.

I think I was molested by a slightly older girl when I was a kid, too. she wanted to play doctor. I was the patient. this only happened once that I recall. her father used to beat her with the buckle side of a belt. her mother used to sit around and smoke and watch soap operas all day. much later her older brother was convicted of child molestation. and a couple years ago she made front-page headlines in the silicon valley. she checked into the san jose hospital maternity ward under a false name. after she delivered, she and her boyfriend said they were going outside for a smoke, then they never came back. they found her, don't know what happened to her after that. a whole lot of no good, i'm sure.

jenny wren - I'm worried about you now. can you promise me you'll be good for the rest of your life? keep yourself safe and don't let people fuck you around? promise?

I,m worried too,don,t be hurting your self,your just mad,get even.Believe me when I tell you I feel your pain,if you can or if you already have a job,save your $ and get away.

where is RC when we need her......

Oh, this shit is way beyond my ken... Just find a good therapist/pls. folks. But Cyst/I'm not sure what happened w/you & that girl was molestation. I remember playing doctor w/other little girls as a kid. It was mainly a 'you-show-me-yours-&-I'll- show-you-mine' deal. I never felt violated. But if you felt violated/then I guess it was molestation.

i used to petition the neighborhood girls to violate me when i was a kid.

likewise...and that might explain a lot of things about me...........hmmmmm

I'm okay now. I won't do anything to hurt myself anymore. I still do bad things like cheat on my boyfriends and fantasize about killing people. Not seriously though. I'm not going to do it. It's mostly my grandma... she's so over-critical and over-bearing. She always has something to say about my clothes, makeup, what I eat (or a lack of eating, which doesn't exist), my friends, my boyfriends, etc. She yells at me, "Why are you pulling this vegetarian shit again?" When I told her I thought I might be gay, she was like, "oh, i knew it all along, bla bla." and when the kids at school heard rumors that i was gay (i was open about it) she was like, "Why did you have to go tell everyone that you were queer? Are you fucking stupid?" I hate her. I've told my shrink this. I told her that I want to kill her. But he knows I never would. i don't tell very many people that I feel this way, because they get scared. I'm not a psycho. i dunno. I'm okay.

Crazy lezbo, Crazy Lezbo Crazy Lezbo, Crazy Lezbo Thinks shes unique but sounds just the same...... In one post we know you are a dyke, a slut, a cheat, a would-be murderer, and a nut... But you're okay...< har-har > Either you're 16 years old or Houston we have a problem here.

fuck java 2SE. somebody needs to work on cyber-bitchslap v.1

I think we're releasing the patch for that soon. Yeah. I'm sure Mark will donate server space so people can download it. Uh-huh.

HeyJ.wren,so glad you posted,was getting worried about you,was going to post if I didn,t see that you did.I,m not gay,but I have always felt very stongly about oppressed people.I,m too tanked to go into it now,but I,m a mother.and I love all my kids for so many reasons.It,s like I can rip on them,but nobody else better or I,ll break my foot up their ass.

Oh!I fucked up never mind.

Fuck -- I was so busy laughing at Swine's cyber-bitchslap I forgot what I was gonna say!

QUESTION FOR MY FELLOW SORABJITES: "RC I know you be able to bust yer science on this one so I am especially lookin for your response." I have a close friend who is thinking of proposing to his girl of two years. She has said to him on a couple of occasions "why buy the milk when the cow is free?" and in the same conversation "if we don't get married I can't say I will be around for long.." He has never bought the institution of marriage but is madly in love with this girl and doesn't want to loose her over this formality and he is willing to do the steps necessary to keep her.......is he a fool? I think she is pressuring him, but he doesn't see it that way. I think he is confused and I am hoping to help him out here, enlighten me folks, thanks!!!! I promise if I meet any of you, its waffles and coffee at.....no where else but the WAFFLEHOUSE!!!

She is pressuring him,but after two years,I don,t blame her.He needs to save up 2 months of wages,buy her at least a 1caret diamond ring,marry her,praise her like he should and hope for the best,because she,s probably starting to think she,s loosing valuable time.Not to be rude,Waffleboy,but I hate pancakes and waffles,so I hope Wafflehouse serves beer.

thanks for your help oh, (sad), I don't think they serve beer, but they have the meanest hasbrowns in the world... I guess I just don't buy the whole give her a big ass diamond and she is yours forever crap. Does the magnitude of his love translate to the how many karats the ring has? I just don't see what the rush or imminent need to marry, what kind of "valuable time" is she loosing? Can't he praise AND be committed to her without the hoopla of marriage? Can he buy her a car and show the same amount of love? I would love more discussion of this....

i dunno. i'd have to be in a relationship for at least 5 years before i even considered marrying anyone. jesus. just thinking about marriage makes my skin crawl.

if she says marry me now or i leave, i would say kiss her ass goodbye. marriage is a declaration of love, not the love itself. anyone who tries to force you into marriage by threatening to be out of your life if you don't is either 1) bluffing or 2) not worth the time. then the question comes down to dig the hole first, or wait? digging the hole first will reduce the chances of you getting caught, however it will also blow away your chances of using a "crime of passion" defense. this is one of my biggest unanswered quandries.

There is a man on trial here for killing his wife,stabbed her 44 times,says he was sleep walking.I think he,s guilty as hell.From the looks of him I could kick his ass,if he walks,I,ll try to.That was his way of digging the ditch.Waffleboy said his friend was crazy about her,I,m sure I was right about what she,s getting at,you might not like it,but thats how it is.

J-"I,m sure I was right about what she,s getting at,you might not like it,but thats how it is." what exactly are you referring to here? "at least a one karat ring" does it really matter the size of the ring? If so thats really sad. A cracker jack ring should suffice. You must live in Arizona, I heard about that on like 20/20 or something, with all the circumstances involved its hard to say. Have you ever talked in your sleep and had no recollection or even walked in your sleep? I have it's the most bizarre thing. My wife is so mena in her sleep at times, but the next morning when I tell her she is usually shocked,

J-"I,m sure I was right about what she,s getting at,you might not like it,but thats how it is." what exactly are you referring to here? "at least a one karat ring" does it really matter the size of the ring? If so thats really sad. A cracker jack ring should suffice. You must live in Arizona, I heard about that on like 20/20 or something, with all the circumstances involved its hard to say. Have you ever talked in your sleep and had no recollection or even walked in your sleep? I have it's the most bizarre thing. My wife is so mean in her sleep at times, but the next morning when I tell her she is usually shocked,

oopps sorry

I walked out of my kitchen at 3.A.M. stark naked,with I,m too embarressed to say who the people were in the kitchen and ate chilli with my hands,and even wierder things in my sleep,but he did it.I think he might walk though cause I do live in Arizona and he,s mormon.Your right the ring biz,I just always wanted one,and if you decide you don,t want to be married anymore you can hock it.

Waffleboy: I refuse to meet any of you at anyplace that does not sell booze. And have a bartender experienced in the creation of superb Margaritas. So there. As for the proposal issue: I believe strongly in big high-quality rocks (providing he can afford one). Becuuz an engagement ring is a piece of jewelry a woman will wear every day for the rest of her life. (And becuz if times get hard /I'd rather hock my ring that lose our house.) But I am a feind for diamonds. Back when I was breifly engaged/I had a killer rock & pr. of diamond studs & they made me feel incredibly beautiful & sexy. And other women (even the occasional man) were always complimenting me on them. Which was nice. However (& this will be very out-of-character advice coming from yours truly) I do NOT believe women shd be the ones to bring up the issue of marriage. Or pop the question. Fuck "The Rules" & those other 1950's throwback manuals on how to 'catch' a man. Most men are irrationally resistant to the mere thought of marriage. Until they suddenly decide (usually in their mid-30's) that they're 'ready'. In which case/they will marry practically the next chick they see. Becuz it's suddenly a priority to them. You can't force/cajole/wheedle/or connive a man into marrying you. Well, sometimes you can -- but you'll spend the rest of yr life regretting it/becuz he'll resent the hell out of you. If a man really wants to marry a woman/he'll propose. Period. On the flip side: You're only young for a short time. If this woman has invested 2 yrs. in a relationship that isn't going to lead to the altar/& getting married is important to her/then she has to tell the guy she's moving on. NOT give him an ultimatum -- just explain that they want different things & she needs to find herself someone who's abt getting married. To her. While she's still young enough to have children (if she wants them) & enjoy being a wife. (Don't ask me why /but marriage has always seemed more enjoyable to me for younger folks. Becuz you're building a history & a life together during the most 'interesting' portion of yr life. I can't imagine getting married after 40. I'll be way too cynical & set in my ways by then.) But the WORST thing she can do is send mixed signals -- i.e. act like she doesn't care abt getting hitched one wk./then start making noises abt leaving the next. It's tough to walk away from someone you genuinely love. But if marriage is that important to her/she needs to find someone who shares the same values & fellings on the issue. Rather than wasting her time w/a man who has no interest in marrying her. Statistically/the years from 20-30 offer a woman the best chance of finding a husband. And that decade passes oh-so fast.

Thanks for the response RC, ok you got it, Ya wanna git tanked, NO PROB, I carry an ass pocket full a wisky 24-7..... I find every woman's desire to have the biggest and best ring really disturbing and I noticed that both you and J mentioned hocking the ring. I fidnt hat disturbing. Tradition has always placed such importance on diamonds and rings and all that shit, it makes me sick. The fact that you made mention of the compliments others gave you on your ring exemplifies the nature of women, to be the best, the be the most beautiful , the have the best pumpkin carriage in town, to have the best prom dress, to have the best hair do, it's the instinctive competitive nature of women. I am not saying its bad, it's merely an observation. I just think my friend will end up doing it just so he can keep her, it's a shame that he has to do that song and dance to make her happy, isn't his love enough? I dunno, thanks for response anyway, I will keep ya posted on what happens if you care

Considering that fact that I don't give a fig abt fashion/make-up/or cars/I think being a gem hound isn't such a major sin. If you're driving a Carerra Turbo & all the babes are gawking as you roll up next to them at a stoplight/& all the men are casting envious glances at you behind the wheel/what's the difference btwn that and a big rock on a woman's finger? However/I stopped buying or wearing gold or diamonds my Freshman year of college/in protest of Apartheid. I swore off them until Mandela was freed. I didn't last that long/but until I got engaged back when I was/what, 25?/I didn't sport anything but silver. Gemstones have great allure. They're a wearable investment that holds it's value over time. And if I were married & suddenly my husband lost his job/or got sick & cdn't work/I'd be happy to hock my ring to cover our mortgage pymts/or whatever/so he wdn't have to sweat those things. It's easier to sell jewelry than to sell a car. If a guy can go out & buy himself a Corvette or a BMW just becuz he wants one/then he can spring for a gorgeous ring for the woman he wants to marry/IMO. [BTW/this isn't a socially-ingrained thing. My aunt used to work for Lu Williard/who was the 1st Black woman to get a seat on the gold exchange. Lu had a jewelry store on 5th Ave. & & my aunt always had lots of 1st-rate baubles at her hse. I got hip to Elsa Peretti & Paloma Picasso & black Tahatian pearls & whatnot thru her. So I got into gems at an early age/the way other people get into art or antiques or whatever.]

Why get married? What is so imperative about it? It's none of the church's business and it's none of the State's business so why do it? On the other hand, if both parties are interested, go for it but why the pressure? What exactly is the big deal? It guarantees nothing, statistically. marriage = ownership. When it comes to people, I'd rather lease or borrow.

I take it she wants to get married/but he doesn't. A lot of people still believe strongly in marriage vs. shacking. It's a personal choice. I know I wdn't be trying to make any man a father who didn't think enuf of me to make me his wife 1st. But that's just my opinion. I don't care what strangers do/so long as they raise their kids well. I've always admired Susan Sarandon & Tim Robbins/& they never got married. The best explaination I ever heard in support of marriage was from a rabbi in NY. He said that people marry in order to honor God & their families. Becuz if you believe in God & that all good things come from God/then you know that finding someone worthy of spending the rest of yr life w/is a tremendous blessing. So you honor God by publicly affirming yr relationship in God's eyes thru marriage. And you honor yr respective families by making a public & legally binding committment to this person in front of them/vs. just living together/becuz yr parents' opinions matter to you. Makes sense to me. I shacked up w/a guy once. My father actually stood in our driveway & cried when I drove away w/all my shit in the car to move into his apt. I've never seen him cry before or since. (It lasted a year.) And I will NEVER do that shit again. If I'm good enuf to live w/then I shd be good enuf to marry.

P.S. Waffleboy (if I may be so bold): Ring or no ring/why did you choose to marry yr woman/ instead of just living together?

Religious belief is really the only good reason. BTW, for the sake of consistency, all bad things also come from god. Like that stupid love and rockets song says, "you cannot go against nature, because when you do, (awkward transition)go against nature, it's part of nature, too." Hooo man! That's deep, huh? I just don't see what the fuck difference it makes when it's so easy to undo. It's really about staking a claim. That's it. I think it's just a stupid, anachronistic tradition. It's like wearing a tie. Does wearing a tie make somebody behave more professionally? Does being married make someone behave more virtuously? It's about appearances and it's about ownership and it's pretty pathetic. If you want to don that yoke, I won't stop you. God damn, I can be a real stinkbomb, sometimes. You must admit there's truth in what I say.

I don't equate committment w/ownership. But for me/ belonging to someone is deeper than just dating someone. The God thing aside/my point is that a promise for life that you make to someone in the privacy or yr own little world isn't binding outside of that world. So what's it really worth? And if you're 100% sure you want to be w/someone for the rest of yr life/why NOT get married? How can marriage hurt? Girlfriends & live-ins are as common as alley cats. But a wife has legal status. And since women are the ones who usually end up taking care of the kids/for all the divorced women out there raising kids all alone/the fact that they were legally married makes it easier to get the courts to enfore child support arrangements /etc. Esp. in the case of older women who devoted their lives to husband & family/then got tossed aside for a trophy wife. Men can afford to be a lot more cavlaier abt marriage being 'meaningless'. But I also feel that if you weren't legally married /then you shdn't have the right to go to court & demand child support/maintenance pymts./etc. Society & the legal system allow protection for those who choose to marry legally. If the piece of paper wasn't that important to you/fine -- just don't bitch abt it later if you get left. And I'll never understand women who have the nerve to sue for palimony! A wife has more status than a live-in -- kids or no. If that legal & social staus isn't important to you/I can dig that. But don't expect the rest of us to support yr kids via Welfare/or the courts to track down yr ex when he doesn't take care of yr kids. He might have 6 other women out there he shacked-up & made babies with. For me/intellectual indendence & rejecting social convention mean you shd be willing to take yr chances & face the consequences -- for you & yr kids. That shd apply to anyone who didn't want the gov't involved in their personal biz when they were shacking up becuz they considered marriage meaningless. Let their kids eat their parents' 'independence' once the realtionship falls apart.

Whether the parents were married or not is meaningless to the kids when the relationship falls apart. I lived that. Scoffing marriage doesn't mean there is no commitment to the kids and that a person is keeping their options open just in case because it's easy enough to split, married or not. Agatha and I have been together for nearly six years. We are not shacking up. I don't need laws to enforce my responsibility to my family. Not in any way. In fact, if anything those laws make it harder to take care of business. They spring from the same source that made blacks two thirds of a person and kept women from voting. We all agree that those needed to be turned over. I can't get Agatha on my insurance policy. What's the real difference if I sign a piece of paper and participate in a silly ritual or not? So I chant a few syllables, sign a contract, and kiss the bride. Now the whole family is insureable. Are the insurance companies just a bunch of silly, romantic saps or are they trying to keep costs down. I have no respect for any of it. It makes me want to kick asses.

*sigh*. Dave/I'm not speaking abt you & Agatha. I haven't met either or you/but I'm certain that you do right by yr child & will continue to do so/come hell or high water. Neither yr kid nor yr ex will ever end up on Welfare/becuz you've both taken care to get the skills & education necessary to ensure that you can cover yr asses & take care of yr child. My point is that for any choice to be meaningful /it has to have consequences attached. And if a person chooses to thumb their nose at convention & to go against social norms/that's everybody's right once they turn 18. But they have to be willing to face the consequences of those choices. When some chickenhead decides to shack up w/a guy w/no skills & no prospects/doesn't behave responsibly abt her sex life by using b.c. /gets knocked up/then watches her man split on her & the kid/why shd I or you or anybody else be responsible for her lousy choice in men? Why shd even a penny of our tax dollars to go support other people's kids/when they had no business having kids/becuz they were barely able to take care of themselves? Parenthood is a responsiblity/not an inalienable right. And not to dis you or Agatha/but why shd yr employer be responsible for putting her on yr health ins. when you're not married? You didn't think marriage was important for you 2. Well/ that's just one of the consequences of making that choice. Why is it unfair for you to live w/that consequence? You can't compare that to Blacks being regarded as 2/3 of a person -- we never had any alternative in that situation. And the anti- suffrage laws were abt not giving women their basic respect as human beings/becuz they were regarded as the property of their husbands or fathers/just as slaves were regarded as property of their masters. It wasn't as though a Black or a woman had an alternative option they cd excercise in order to get their proper recognition/until the laws were changed. So you can't compare the two. But if it really mattered to you that much/you & Agatha cd get married in order to provide her w/that coverage. Gays don't get coverage either -- & they don't have the option of marrying. Nor shd they/IMO. But I think they shd be entitled to put their live-ins on their insurance. Precisely becuz they are legally prevented from marrying. People who have the right to marry but choose not have no right to expect the same privileges & legal protection as married couples. The same way that people w/a driver's license have different right's from those who drive w/out a license. They can both get where they want to go/but if they both wreck their cars/why shd the person w/no license be entitled to sue? Or if they get stopped for speeding/why shdn't the person w/no license be arrested? They chose to drive w/out one/so they forfeited the legal protection that comes w/being a licensed & insured driver. That's part of the point in marriage -- you get certain perks from letting the state certify yr committment to each other. So how can you bitch when you reject marriage & don't get the same privileges?

Score.

We probably will get married for that and a couple other reasons. Eventually. While Agatha was in school, it was to our benefit to be "single". For tax reasons, it's to our benefit. For insurance reasons, it's not. Why can I put my daughter on my policy but not her mother? So, it's a business contract then. Why can't gays sign contracts? In all of your arguments, I still don't see anywhere that being married makes a difference. What it gets down to is that annoying, "because that's just the way it is" that authority figures use when they can't explain or don't want to explain or don't have to explain. I know it's not on the same level as civil rights and women's rights, I just threw that in for effect. I don't know what else to say and I don't want to keep repeating myself.

why should gays not be able to marry? just curious about why you would think that, rc. i think this is a very interesting discussion, with two radically different but well thought out arguments presented. keep going.

Agatha: For me/gay marriage is a religious issue. I think marriage is a unique relationship created by God for a man & a woman to enter into/not just a union humans invented -- like limited liability partnerships or whatever. I've thought & prayed abt it a lot/becuz of the gay people I've known. And every time I keep coming away w/the same feeling: God wd kick my ass if I supported gay marriage/becuz that's not what marriage is for in God's eyes. And since He created it/I can't really tell God "Well/you need to make some changes here, Dude." As much as I might like to/I just can't. Becuz I can't find anything in the Bible that wd support that. Sounds dumb/I know. But that's the catch w/being a Christian: You can't condemn yrself in the things that you approve. At some point/you have to draw that proverbial line & say I'll go this far/but no further. But the flip side is that becuz I wdn't want to legalize gay marriages/or nationalize my religious beliefs into laws/I think gay couples have to be offered at least some of the same legal protections as straight married couples. Becuz the state is refusing them the right to marry. But if they're going to be able to live together & raise kids & do all the stuff married people do/then the state has to offer them at least some of the same perks. Since the state's only real objections to gay marriage are/in fact/based on Judeo- Christian morality. And the state has a legal obligation to keep it's interests & practices seperate from religion. Dave: I don't mean to make you keep repeating yrself either. But I have yet to hear you offer one serious objection or downside to being married. And there are obvious upsides. If it's 'meaningless'/then it shdn't mean anything bad to get married. Unless it's just a 'fuck social mores' thing. Which becomes kinda silly after a certain age. The fact that 'society' promotes marriage doesn't make marriage in & of itself bad. Yr marriage will be what you make it. You & Agatha have done everything else married folks do. And I'll bet you feel 'married' to each other/however that feels. I'm not saying anyone has the right to coerce you into getting married. But look at it this way: Suppose you completed 4 yrs. of study at univeristy. You paid yr own way/took all the required courses/ passed all the exams/finished all yr papers/aced yr orals -- but were never matriculated. You were auditing all those classes for 4 yrs./right alongside everyone else who was enrolled. Technhically/you've got B.A. & shd be able to claims all the perks that go along w/that. But becuz you didn't sign up & pay yr b.s. fees/you don't get that sheepskin/or the right to claim you're a Bachelor of Arts. Wdn't it make sense to sign-up/pay yr fees/& get yr proper B.A.? Even if you thought that matricualtion & fees were dumb/after you'd done all the work/why wd you NOT want to get yr deserved recognition becuz of a couple of forms & fees you didn't agree with? The B.A. is a good thing. The forms & fees are not. But isn't it kind of silly to reject the system at that point/when you clearly have more to benefit than to lose? All of my adult life/I've had these discussions. abt marriage. Always w/men. And I've never yet heard anyone give any valid & meaningful reason for living together vs. getting married. Marriage doesn't stop anyone from leaving if they want to. And if you both agree on the gnarly shit like division of property & child custody (& reasonable adults shd be able to agree on those things)/an uncontested divorce only costs a few hundred bucks. Less if you file all the paperwork yrself (& you can - you don't need a lawyer to file the papers). So it's not fear of the state complicating yr life if you want to divorce that stands an an argument against marriage. After a point/when you've done all the things married people do & created the kind of relationship married people have/I honestly can't see any legit reason not to get married. But I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways.

whoooo, you guys are into, I like it.......first of all, marriage HAS NOTHING to do with religion, all though it can, people marry under all different kinds of faith, marriage is more universal than christianity, it crosses all faiths, secondly, I am athiest, when my wife and I got married, we wrote our own vows, had my uncle who is a judge perform the ceromony, I made sure there was no mention of god anywhere because it is meaningless to us. All though I am suffering from a hang over and i would like to address all the points mentioned, it hurts to read right now. I do agree with alot of your points dave. The fact that gays can't be married is an infringement on our constitution, the only serious argument against it is that homosexuality is "wrong"...well that may be in the eyes of some god but our country is not run by a divine god (and please don't mention why our coins say in god we trust....thats a dying argument)....(getting more coffee...) i can tell you that since i have been married we have paid out the ass in taxes, those muthafuckas on capitol hill want to impose their american dream on us by encouraging us to have kids and buy a freakin house (tax breaks), though neither are in our near future so therefore we pay big bucks in taxes....something i am very bitter about i must be honest RC, "my friend and his girlfriend" in the proposed question are actually me and my wife, something we were discussing and debating recently, though its after the fact, there is a rubbing point between about this issue....... after she made those comments,. we took a trip to Paris, i had gone to my grandmother (my beloved grandmother!!) and told her what I was thinking of doing, she went to her chest of drawers and pulled out my moms first white gold engagement ring (my moms first husband came out of the closet after two years and died of aids 10 years ago, she took the stone and had it put into a necklace and my grammy had the empty ring)...she gave it to me and said use this, we went to Paris and I asked her in French under the Eiffel tower. Since the ring was empty we went together and had a stone put into it TOGETHER, she picked out the prettiest stone we could afford, and we paid it off together. My ring, a simple white gold band $150, her stone and the ring, which was customized for a marquie (spell?),= $3500....I knocked her socks off and we have been together since, i proposed because i didn't want to loose her for any reason and i was willing to go thru the steps to keep her, though i didn't necessarily agree with the conventions of marriage, i wanted to be with her, we had a non religious , roaring 20s themed wedding (we have always felt we were together in a past life in a Great Gatsby type setting...)....we had a blast. We didn't do it for anyone but ourselves, we did it our way and never accepted no for an answer. When her parents were dispointed because I don't have college degree and she wanted an off white dress, we said "fuck you, we will pay for it ourselves, and we will send you an invitiation,they came crawling back after two hours of the phone. Basically i have done whatever it takes to keep her, i love her and never want to give her up.....THATS WHY I AM MARRIED As far as i am concerned, there are no perks from the state to be married, In california, doestic partners (i.e. gays and live-ins) can get insured, but California is liberal that way. Some progressive companies do offer domestic partner benefits. I work for The Advocate magazine, the old war horse of the Gay/lesbian/bi/tran movement, I am up to par on these types of issues for that reason. RC i share the same opinion about materialistic women as I do about the mid-life crisis hair transplanted man drivin his hot wheels bmw or whatever. Just last night at the dodgers game this coiuple in front of us.....the man, in his 50's, growing old and certainly not in a diginified way, the rolex on his wrist indicated he probably had money, plus the seats we were given were in a high dollar area, the girl....in her 20's blonde and obviously not with this guy for his looks. She was gold diggin and it showed, he got the prettiest girl his wallet could afford and she was with the richest guy her pretty ass could get, I have no repsect for either type individual, come to LA and this is quite common...thats all i can think of right now, got to go to a gallery openeing in china town.....maybe i will see ya'll on monday.....

Horray for Waffleboy! I don't think marriage is a religious issue for everyone/altho' it is for me. But I dig the fact that you married yr woman becuz it was important to HER & you'd do anything to keep her. That's one of the BEST reason's anyone cd have for getting married. (You got any much older brothers?) And actually/the guy I was thinking of when I wrote abt buying the Vette was in his late 20's at the time -- the cousin of a guy I dated back in college. When he proposed to his girlfriend/he told her he cdn't afford a ring at the time. But she still said yes. A month later/he bought himself a brand new Corvette. Then the asshole tried to hide it from her by parking it in someone else's garage. She finally busted him in it a few wks. later. Man, was she pissed! And rightfully so. If he was willing to put out $25k for a car/or take on $25 g's worth of debt/shd've bought her a ring/since having one was important to her. Men of all ages like their toys. And women of all ages like our jewels.

Just to bring up a few points, some directly and some not directly related to the matter at hand: (1) I don't even like diamonds. But I was engaged once, and he put a beautiful antique platinum rings with a fiery diamond and baguettes on my finger and I was bedazzled. I want a ring if I ever get engaged again, but I will at least specify what I want if I don't design the fucking thing myself. I want an alexandrite: I don't care if it's real or fake, as long as it glimmers green-purple-azure-brown depending on how the light hits it. I like opals too, but it's not my birthstone and they're supposed to be unlucky if they're not your birthstone. I like all kinds of gems, I only wear one. It was my gandma's and it is beautiful. I will take it off for softball games, but I won't leave it off overnight unless I DO become engaged. (2) Just as a point of fact on something which will be academic to you all. BLACKS were not 2/3 of a person. SLAVES were, and not 2/3 either...they were 3/5. I only bring this up because free people of colour, and there was a substantial community of free people of colour in the north (especially around Philly from whence sprang William Edward Burghardt DuBois) didn't count at all. Because the point was that this was something the South lobbied for to balance the voting power of the more densely populated (by Citizens) industrial North. (3) My brother and his husband had a commitment ceremony. I honor it as I do any other marriage. It would be swell if the state kicked in a few perks, and probably more swell for my materialistic brother if the snobby episcopalian church in which he'd been raised up in faith would've condoned and sponsored his partnering in love (ok, I'm still a little pissed at his sneering at the star trek dinnerware I gave him when I KNEW his guy would LOVE it, because I didn't buy him crystal and silver and all that like his chichi friends). Most of all, though, I think my brother wants recognition from the people he interacts with daily, and from his family. It takes a nation of millions to hold him back, but they're doing a pretty good fucking job. (4) I do not want to be incendiary just now so I will leave off here. (5) R.C., did you get the link?

marriage is based on a patriarchal concept, and it is definitely rooted in religion. for me, the knowledge that gays are considered substandard as humans, and not entitled to the same privileges as the rest of humanity, would be a reason to not affiliate myself with christianity. i don't understand how anyone can just accept ideas like that, using religion as a basis for the rationale. that is just completely illogical, in my opinion. i would not support a god that does not treat all moral people equally. then again, i am not religious, so maybe that is why i don't understand. i prefer to form my own moral decisions, not refer to some outdated book that tells me how i should think and what i should feel. hope this doesn't piss anyone off, but i have never comprehended religious minds.

agatha, margret, I would like to think people with our mentalities will dominate the first half of the next century, however, when i see people like george bush jr., pat buchanon, steve forbes and al gore etc running for president, i have to wonder whose agenda will be enforced. all fo those fucks scare me. I am not sure if if ,marriage is anymore of patriarchal then matriarchal. I think women, generally speaking, since way back when sought marriage as much as men, the concepts instituted by their mothers and other women around them as little girls. We are instilled that it is something coming and its aonly a matter of preparing for it. Have you ver listen to little kids on the playground or yet think back to when you were a kid and how often "bobby sue is gonna marry gross ricky....yewwwwww, yucccckkkkk" chime the girlfriends...or the little boys chanting, "jo & sue sittin in a tree k i s s i n g first comes love then comes marriage etc etc....." i too agree that more blood has been shed in the name of religion but as I have grown older and less radical in thought as I was just 4-5 years ago I have come to accept one concept as applicable to all, and that is live and let be. RC, i do have a 32 year old brother, but he is a mess.....you wouldn't want him, not to sound arrogant,, but we basically come from different planets. He gots da muscle, I gots da brains.

Margret: Got it. Read thru some of it last nite. It was very thorough & elegantly simple (& free!). Will be back soon for more lessons. Agatha: I understand how you feel. Lots of folks feel the same way abt religious thought. So I'm not offended. (How was yr trip? And did you get any cool grad gifts?)

my trip was marvelous. vancouver, bc is a beautiful city. i want to move there, but i don't think that americans can just up and move to canada. for graduation, i got some money and a nice bracelet. and lots of dinners while on our trip. i bought myself some gifts at this store called "lush" in canada, they have a web page that you should check out. i think it's just http://www.lush.com i got this bar shampoo that is predominantly lentils and cocoa butter, it smells heavenly and makes my hair look shiny and thick. i also got a deodorant that is scented with sandalwood, two chocolate massage bars, and some bath bombs that fizz up when you put them in your bath. i am addicted to lush.

guess that's not the site. damn.

http://www.lushcanada.com

I'm hip to Lush -- I have their catalog. But I've yet to order any of their stuff.

way back - r.c. - you're right, I've never felt violated so I've never been molested. I would get married to get on a trustworthy person's health insurance (someone who would not use the contract to screw me over). but the offers I've had have all been traditional (they want the supposed-lifelong love, sex, cohabitation, etc.), so I have not yet been able to accept. so I keep making the monthly payments. lame.

oh, and gals - if you're in the market for a rich pussycat of a husband, you must come to portland or seattle. those cities are crawling with really sweet software guys who are looking for a wife to go with the house and dog. if I told my mother about all the millionaire guys who have pursued me and whom I have discouraged, she would have a heart attack. (so I only tell her about the restaurant workers and bookstore clerks.) and chicks such as ourselves, who are geeky enough to bbs, we can really do well in the late '90s urban northwest environment. if you come out and have difficulty getting started, I can give you a list of phone numbers, make introductions. I could easily set you up with a., who is overfond of whiskey but cute and writes great letters. and he and the writer of this e-mail message are both into girls with meat on their bones. here's an example of how overstocked the sw portland pond is: "Part of the reason for having a garage sale was so that A. could meet women, on the theory that lots of cute alterna-babes go to garage sales to buy kitschy '70s stuff and that kind of thing. There were indeed lots of cute alterna-babes in attendance, but I was the only one who talked to them. A. just sat and drank mint juleps and grumbled. Actually, there were cute alterna-boys as well, so you should have been there wearing your bikini. That probably would have helped sales. On the other hand, you might have scared off the cute, miniskirted Eastern European girls who were also much in attendance. I talked to two who had just emigrated from Minsk. They were wearing jean jackets and those translucent plastic sandals with high heels that strippers wear. I'm sure you're very familiar with the look."

speakin of cute alterna chicks, hey fellas, LA ain't so bad, just yesterday my wife and a pal of mine had some margaritas for lunch at the local taquito pusher and when we leaving, driving down sunset blvd., we musta saw 10-15 cuties within 2 miles, of course being buzzed and all, as I drove straight and steady my tipsy wife and ubnoxious pal proceeded to yell cat calls such as "fries come with that shake?????"...summer time in la and it's such a meatmarket! Eveyr girl here is dressed in their cute short skirts and hipster sandles with their leopard print bowlingbag/purse with their jackie o sunglasses and scarf, it's like everyone here who was an extra in "Swingers" or some other hipster flic & forgot to return the clothes to wardrobe and is just staying dressed for the next hip-to movie about the 20 somethings who hop in a classic muscle car listen to the stray cats, or some big band knock off.........awww.....what the hell you get the idea

I like to shout to the hookers who walk Van Buren,"shake that money maker",or "work it,work it"and try to see if I see anyone I know.

my wife has a big mouth and loves to cat call girls just to confuse em and also she is convicned she was a boy in a past life so these things come naturally to her, thats why i love her, she can be one of the fellas and she can be a sexy vixen as well...... sometimes she(i) gets lucky,

Thats why after 19 years, and that was 3 years ago and another man away I got a one and one fifth karat in a platinum setting,and I,m fucking proud.

If I were a boy (knock wood, kiss the ground, praise the lord) I don't think I'd ever do catcalls. Do girls actually respond to that? I tend to roll my eyes and make fun of whatever twit yelled out whatever with my friends. Personally, I don't think I could Ever go for someone who seemed like they had to prove their masculinity by yelling it to the street and compleat strangers like that.