why do we have property? i think that the world would be a much happier and enjoyable place to live if we weren't all striving to acquire one more cd, a new car, or the reddest apple. Roseau was so right when he said that property is the root of all evil.

You're just saying that because swine owns your mom.

Yeah, I don't know any Roseau, but that must be one hell of an intro to political theory class you're taking. ROUSSEAU bases his theories on a state of nature which is total bullshit. That's the thing about those contract theorists, they all got to get down and funky with a fictionalized 'before society' state of nature argument. In fact, if you want a slightly tighter but way less groovy social contract theorist re the whole property thing, you're going to want to look to John Locke, who went so far as to break it into TWO pre-civil phases, so he could point to exactly how, to quote a favorite tune from Cyndi Lauper, 'money changes everything.' Me, I'm not a huge fan of property. I'm also not a huge fan of Rousseau. Given the toss up, I prefer to keep the property (including several works by Rousseau) and wait for the Plenty and the withering away of the state. That's from Marx/Engels, who at least bothered to read some anthropology in describing their 5 phases of economy (the 5th of which is that oh so transcendant communism). Not that i think Rousseau's dumb, just wrong. Not that I think Marx is right -- I don't, but a girl can dream. You want to know who's a real theoretical hottie? Hobbes. Hobbes is the fucking bomb, man. Wrong, but so fucking smart. So fucking smart.

One of the people I went to Ireland had silly idealistic ideas about property. We had an argument about anarchism (bear with me, this will get back to property, I swear), in which I pointed out that if we started out as an anarchistic society, we would slowly slip back into a society like that which exists now--we would start out by wanting to trade goods from our gardens, and then we would need to transport them to where were trading, and then, probably we would want to guard them, since we regarded them as "ours" and would want something in return, and then we would be back to property and capitalism. (I deleted a few steps since I'm on my way to work.) Anyway, it seems like we tend to fall back into this need to possess something inevitably. Plus, I like property. How can I maintain a California girl status without the toys? Anyway.

That doesn't strike me so much as capitalism as it does mercantilism. The problem with Marx's theories are that they are structural, and in fact there is no set progression of stages of culture, like he thought. There does seem to be a progression of technology, but is it a natural progression common to every society? of course not.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is: he read the data totally wrong...but he LOOKED at the data, dig?

Yeah I know. I wasn't quite sure where I wanted to go with that. Margret's got a point.

yeah, Rousseau must have been one of those purist philosopher types. To this day, actually, MArxist ideas are used in archaeological theory ( although not the stages of cultural evolution anymore).

there is so much marxism in architectural discourse (yes, there is,) that it makes me cringe

the world is at it's level of happiness there can't be more or less happiness is abstract and undefinable adding and taking away won't change it, ever

"you will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of. you will never live if you continue to search for the meaning of life." -camus

hmmm... you know. i think that we will eventually out grow property. i realize that this is idealistic, but i believe it deep down. if not for the warm and fuzzy feelings then because we will run out of resources and we'll all die if we don't share posessions. some people will try to hoard, hopefully not, but to add some negativeness to the fire. those that try to hoard and be "rich" via there air/oil/coca cola supply will be bashed and all will use it for the common good.

many people require ownership and a sense of the value of property to respect it humanity seems to fluctuate along a line i wouldn't necessarily call it progress

ahh... i disagree. ownership is not to respect the property it is to gain the respect of peers and society. rarely, if ever... i would venture to say ever, does one strive to own something because they believe it to be worthy of their respect. my new car is not worthy of more respect than my feet which can carry me just the same. the value we place on things is driven by society.

I respect my bass trombone. That's why I own it.

you got me backwards what i mean is: when people don't feel a sense of worth and ownership of the things around them, they often don't respect them (ie- neglect to take proper care of them) things cannot be free people are not good they do not share regardless, going back to your first post- what each individual strives for is their own responsibility and is not dictated by property ownership. i want health and friends and art and family and the ability to recognize beauty and contrast and craziness and to see new things. money is a very small part.

I am hoarding cigarettes against the apocalypse. Cigarettes and wd-40. Then you will all be my bitches. I will be a woman of property.

i don't smoke but damn, the wd40, i hadn't thought of that

duct tape might be wise as well

You may not smoke, but for those who do my cigarettes will be the ultimate currency, and THEY will have something you want. Dig? I'd rather walk 10 miles and smoke than barter for gasoline and have no cigarettes for my drive. Addiction, baby, addiction. Heh.

how long can you keep cigarettes? can you freeze them?

Yes, but do you think those going through the withdrawal will care if they're stale? THEY WON'T. I WILL BE UNSTOPPABLE. BOW BEFORE ME NOW AND YOU CAN BE MY LIEUTENANTS.

you ever spend any time in prison?

When the apocalypse comes, my mom will own YOU!!! A mother's day present!!!!

you bring your mom anywhere near me and i'll pull a "sonny liston" on the old coot. word is bond.

I've got the duct tape covered.

heather you are wrong. people are good. people just do bad things. deep down everyone has this core of goodness. it may be a bit hard to see, but it is there. i'll begin my practicum soon where i will be working in a prison. i'm really excited about this because i think that people in prison are often looked at as if they have no goodness in them. i want to renew people's faith in their goodness.

i am convinced swine is evil.

i prefer the term "morally-challenged", if you don't mind. boorish cad.

talk to me six months into the prison stint

some more theory for ya- "in the preceding issue of this journal (les levres nues #6, sept 1955) marien proposed that when global resources have ceased to be squandered on the irrational enterprises that are imposed on us today, all the equestrian statues of all the cities of the world be assembled in a single desert. this would offer to the passerby- the future belongs to them- the spectacle of an artificial cavalry charge, which could even be dedicated to the memory of the greatest massacres or history, from tamerlane to ridgway. here we see reappear one of the main demands of this generation: educative value" Guy Debord

Now that I've stated I hate Vonnegut on another thread, I need to borrow from him: "Anne Frank was a stupid litle girl who deserved to die." Now, this is not exactly true, although The Diary should be struck from reading lists in favour of something better written, but the idea that all people are good which she purveyed should be struck out. Because it's wrong. And good luck in the prison--my father worked with inmates for a couple of years teaching English. He said most of the inmates were excellent authors and that they held Christmas in Februrary.

Xmas in February? You'r gonna have to explain that one.

Apparently, they were origionally planning to celebrate Christmas on the normal date, but there was some problem--so they decided to put it off...and put it off...and put it off...until, finally, everything could go off without a hitch. My father remembers feeling like a complete idiot in a Santa Suit, running through the halls of the prison. There was something else about this story that was funny, but I can't remember what it was, and I don't really feel like calling and finding out. I think it had something to do with _why_ Christmas was out off... Anyway. That's the story in a nutshell.

Whoever's serious abt wanting to rid themselves of their property can invite me over TOMORROW. I'll be there w/a bigass truck & happily relieve you of yr possessions. I like my stuff. ALL of it. (Except the awful chandelier that came w/the place. Looks like something fucking ET made. And the set of dishes my Mom pawned off on me that she got from one of her sisters.) Gonna get more stuff soon. Becuz having a crib means you need to fill it w/STUFF. But only really good stuff. I wdn't mind pilfering somma Swine's stuff either. Esp. his music & art collections. So, Swine... you gonna hook up Sistah up or what?

i'll drive the truck if I can have the Burt Bacarach albums.