| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
|---|
TALLAHASSEE - The man named Thursday by Gov. Jeb Bush to head Florida's notoriously inept child welfare agency is an evangelical Christian who views spanking that causes ''bruises or welts'' as acceptable punishment. The revelation did not come to Bush's attention until hours after the governor introduced Jerry Regier, a former Oklahoma Cabinet secretary and aide to Bush's father, as the new chief of the state's Department of Children and Families. Regier, 57, was named less than 48 hours after the resignation of DCF Secretary Kathleen A. Kearney. He takes over an agency that has been embroiled in scandal since 5-year-old Rilya Wilson disappeared. In a 1989 essay entitled The Christian World View of the Family, Regier and co-author George Rekers railed against abortion and gay couples forming families, and emphasized that husbands have ``final say in any family dispute.'' And the essay declares that ''biblical spanking'' that leads to ``temporary and superficial bruises or welts do not constitute child abuse.'' The essay also said Christians should not marry non-Christians, that divorce is acceptable only when there is adultery or desertion and that wives should view working outside the home as ''bondage.'' The ''radical feminist movement,'' the essay adds, ``has damaged the morale of many women and convinced men to relinquish their biblical authority in the home.'' Asked if the governor was aware of Regier's writings before they were raised by The Herald, Bush spokeswoman Katie Muniz said: ``I have a simple answer. No.'' But, she added, ``Mr. Regier has been an outstanding public servant for over a decade serving two presidents and a sitting governor. His record speaks for itself. Many of our nation's finest public servants past and present have been men and women of faith.'' ''However, Mr. Regier understands there is a clear distinction between fulfilling the duties and responsibilities of your office and promoting religious views,'' Muniz added. But Regier's essay raises questions about the suggestion that he would keep beliefs and government duties separate. He and Rekers at one point urge Christians to take ``whatever actions we can, within our biblical and constitutional limits, to realign county, state, and federal legislation regarding family issues in order to make it conform to the Bible's view of reality and morality.'' Though praised by many as a strong administrator in Oklahoma, Regier also has a long line of detractors. Critics say his devotion to conservative Christian principles could run afoul of long-standing Florida child welfare practice -- and perhaps law. ''He'll turn that agency basically into a theocracy,'' said Oklahoma state Rep. M.C. Leist, who serves on that social services appropriations subcommittee. ``You need to watch out with Jerry.'' Deborah Schroth, an attorney with Florida Legal Services, a statewide public interest law firm in Jacksonville, said state law specifically forbids corporal punishment that results in bruises and welts. The new DCF chief's ''view of what is not child abuse is contrary to Florida law,'' Schroth said. Regier, who was in Tallahassee on Thursday morning for the announcement of his appointment, was on his way back to Oklahoma City on Thursday night and could not be reached for comment. Regier, who called the DCF job ''a daunting task,'' was recommended by Bush's fellow Republican governor, Frank Keating of Oklahoma, who suggested to Bush in a letter that Regier ''could be of immense help to you.'' Keating noted he called in Regier during a ''similar crisis'' in Oklahoma, asking him to root out phantom employees on the health department payroll. Regier, who will be paid $150,000 a year, will take over a staff of more than 25,000 employees statewide who oversee more than 45,000 children, most of whom have been abused or neglected by their parents. He said his first task will be to meet with agency employees. He will work with a budget of $844 million, a significant reduction from the $1.2 billion at his disposal in Oklahoma. Regier steps into the shoes of former Broward judge Kearney, who resigned Tuesday after more than three months of turmoil, beginning with the April announcement that 5-year-old Rilya had disappeared from Florida's foster care system. In subsequent days, the agency faced down serious allegations that several children -- from Miramar, Lakeland, Fort Myers, Riviera Beach and Crestview -- already known to be at risk, died from abuse or neglect. Regier said he's confident the agency can be turned around. The father of four said he met with DCF staff several weeks ago to offer advice, but ''was not looking for a job,'' until Bush called him Wednesday to offer him the position. ''We're going to open the windows of this department,'' he said. ``We want to restore confidence in the department and I believe that's possible.'' Steven Novick, a Tulsa attorney who has fought with Oklahoma over children's issues, said Regier won kudos for his cleaning up the corruption in the Department of Health and Human Services. ''That was generally regarded as good work,'' Novick said. Democratic gubernatorial candidate Bill McBride was surprised to hear about Regier's stances on child abuse and working women. ''That just sounds crazy to me,'' McBride said. ``The worst thing we can have is some philosophical thing that suggests we need to put kids more at risk of abuse. ``If the governor wasn't deliberate enough to have found the best, then he should be held accountable for this.'' Janet Reno, the leading Democratic candidate for governor, said she was not familiar with Regier's record and declined to comment on it. Some Oklahoma lawmakers said they wished Florida well but said there was a darker side to Regier's reputation as a hard-nosed administrator. ''The best way I've heard him described is that he considers himself a self-made man -- and he worships his maker,'' said Democratic Sen. Gene Stipe, dean of the Oklahoma Senate with 54 years of service. ``He'll be extremely partisan, you can expect that. He will really champion all the right-wing causes.'' Though Regier boasted he had saved taxpayers more than $1 million by rooting out patronage and corruption in Oklahoma's health department, Stipe said Regier ''busted'' his budget at the state's Office of Juvenile Affairs, a position he held before taking over at the department of health. Leist, a Democratic state House member, said Regier's $10-million effort to curb divorce -- which used unspent welfare dollars primarily intended for poor people -- did little to improve the welfare of troubled families. ''It stunk,'' Leist said of Regier's Marriage Initiative, which was warmly embraced by Keating, and much of conservative Washington. Contrary to Regier and Keating's proclamations, Leist said, Oklahoma's divorce rate was lower than surrounding states. ''He's good at fighting problems that don't exist,'' Stipe said. In 1999, while Regier was secretary for health and human services, Oklahoma ranked 40th among the 50 states for several key indicators of child well-being (Florida ranked 36th). The rankings, the most recent available, are compiled by the Annie E. Casey Foundation, a private charitable organization for needy children. Regier is a founder and former president of the Family Research Council, a conservative Christian group that bills itself as championing ``marriage and family as the foundation of civilization . . .'' Regier called himself a ''preacher's kid'' and said he would promote the involvement of faith-based organizations in social services. ''My faith certainly plays a role,'' he said. ``We're not going to solve this problem by ourselves.'' Herald staff writers Steve Rothaus, Jay Weaver, Oscar Corral and Tyler Bridges contributed to this report. |
|
|
My first thought, "I bet he doesn't have kids." (By the way, I don't know where that came from.) I think there is a difference between spanking and beating. I don't know or care to know anything about "biblical spanking" but I think if executed properly, in an otherwise stable home environment, a good spank on the bottom can be a reasonable form of punishment, and only between certain ages. I also think that there would be minimal, if any bruising. And only on the bottom. I don't think you should ever smack a kid in the face. No one I've ever met whose parents gave the occasional spank seemed either bitter or damaged. |
Kind of gives a new perspective on, "You will thank me for this later!!!" |
I was spanked as a kid and eventually those spankings, although I think in the beggining my parents meant well, turned into beatings. They didn't know what else to do I think. Still, it doesn't make it excusable, I don't walk around wearing the "I was abused" pity badge but I also don't deny the fact that it has affected me in my adult life. I learned at a very young age that when you're mad, you hit. It's very very very difficult to retrain that mentality. I'm turning twenty-four in a few days and I still don't entirely trust that it's gone. I wonder sometimes if it every will be. I find when I get mad, I mean, real mad, I wanna punch and kick. I've taught myself that when I start feeling that way, to walk away. In most cases, this works. The last time I hit someone I loved was five years ago. (Course, he hit me back. I'm taking blame here totally but I'm not taking all of it.) There's been many times since then in the moment of passion and frustration when I feel that urge rising up again. It's a matter of telling myself "no". Just no. And it works. What frightens the fuck out of me is that I'll have a kid someday. And I won't be able to control myself. That's why, personally, I'll never spank. I think a spanking is too close to abuse and for someone like me, unless I somehow am able to totally rid myself of this by the time I'm a mother, is like being an alcoholic and getting an apartment above the bar. It's too tempting. I think that's what happened with my parents. I think what started out as a spanking lost control. It's unfortunate that now it's my weight to bear and not theirs, but it is. Y'know? |
i don't know that it's right or wrong on some moral sense. i'm not sure it should be legislated. i think it's stupid, though. poor judgement. pepsi in the baby bottle is stupid, too. poor judgement. |
(and it's not really pepsi. it's pepsi TWIST baby) |
I think that because you give it so much thought, you're less likely to repeat what your parents did. People should know what will and won't work for them as parents. I don't think it's the only way to discipline a child, I just think there is a problem with conflating spanking with abuse in every isntance. And like I said, if done PROPERLY. That is the single, occasional spank. And as with any form of punishment, a child has to know what he or she is being punished for. From what I understand "beatings" rarely come with that, and tend to produce scared rather than disciplined children. And I am certainly not speaking to what you've said about your experience, because I don't know. |
The baby's name was Max and he was dark skinned so, not Sem's...I don't know what that means. |
the point is i think, is exactly what you said. it does matter on what kind of person you are. you don't move in above the bar if you know you've got a problem drinking. you don't make friends with crack dealers and then join NA.... |
and the daddy? it's Tom Brokaw.. we all have that dream...multiple times if we're lucky. (especially the one with him and the squeegee...yea, you know what im sayin) |
What's this place for, if not to air your shit from time to time? I did not grow up in what you would call an ideal household. A lot of it was because my father was so severly mentally ill and so my mom had the equivalent of another child to raise, instead of a partner to raise my brothers and me. And my mother also had a slew of her own issues. As a parent I think she could have handled things a lot better, but I think she did what she could with what she had. And I as I get older, I continue to find myself repeating some of the things that she does. But I think that being introspective rather than denying it, is the key to preventing it. |
|
i think the dream ive had that i remember the most and disturbs the most is that im at this park, but come to find out, its Jurassic Park and all the dinosaurs are out...except what's after us is this big squid thing..and we're in the elevator trying to escape... have i mentioned that "we" is me and that obnoxious brat from the pepsi commercials? dude, i was protecting her ass from a giant squid. |
This is one of the most vivid dreams I ever had. I'm sitting at my desk where I used to work and the phone rings and it's my father and he starts asking me if I remember when I was four years old and he took me to an aircraft carrier and I fell off the side and some navy seals rescued me. I told him I did not. He insisted that it happened. So I called my mother (still dreaming here) and asked her if it happened. She burst out laughing and said no, when I was four years old my father took me to Florida and I fell out of a sail boat that belonged to my dad's friend who was a retired Navy Seal and he leaned over and pulled me out. The sad thing is, that would not be an unusual conversation for my father, who is bi-polar, to have with me. At least not when he's in a manic state. |
So, if he's not the One, I'm going to kick his ass because I don't think I'll ever meet anyone else like him ever again. |
In the dream I was a pregnant woman. There was something wrong with my baby. I was on my back being taken somewhere. My feet were up in the air, and there was blood on my hands, on my clothes, and my legs.. It was the most vivid dream I have ever had. I could feel and hear everything, the pain and my own screams, and it was in color. I frequently have vivid, lucid dreams, but this one was way beyond anything I've ever experienced. But, here's the strange part. There was a man beside me, speaking in my ear to soothe me. He was talking calmly, saying that everything was going to be OK. But, in the dream, I wasn't only the pregnant woman, I was the man as well! I could see everything from his perspective too, simultaneously, and as he was talking I was also listening to him from the woman's ears. It was as if we were one person. Freaky, eh? |
|
|
Is that ok, or does it count as mental abuse? |
|
|
|
|
change the name to "semi intoit" |
Yeah it fucking hurt, shit I was little. But now that I think back on it, it wasn't that hard but to a little kid it is. I never got bruised, I may have had a red ass for like a day but fuck.... So yeah, any way, I got spanked, and look how I turned out. |
here you go, folks, one more reason NOT to spank. </announcer> |
All the spankings I've witnessed have been less about teaching the kid a lesson and more about the parent/caretaker venting anger. |
I was spanked only if I did something violent or destructive. FOr anything else I had to go stand in the corner. I think i preferred the spanking. |
uh hangon... no can't say it |
I provided after-school care to my nephews for a few years and I never spanked or made them stand in a corner. Mostly they only misbehaved if they were bored so I kept the activities happening. If they were bad, I would push their navel gently and tell them it was their "mute" button and that I couldn't hear what they were saying until they could ask nicely or stop whining or whatever. Then I'd press it again when they were behaving. Not that it worked, but it was kinda fun for me because they have such cute little belly buttons. Cute nephew story: I took my five year old mate to see Harry Potter a few months back. If you haven't seen it, there's a part right at the beginning when the wizard imposes a pig's tail on horrible fat boy. His name was um Godfrey? and he's the boy we're all supposed to hate. Anyways little nephew stood up in the theatre and said "That's not funny" when everybody laughed at Godfrey crying. And then he insisted we leave immediately. He explained loudly on the way out that it wasn't nice to laugh at sad people. When do we lose that childhood goodness? |
|
not that i'm trying to claim any childhood goodness. |
Used right, spanking is an effective means of teaching a kid whats going on. It only works up until a certain point. once a kid gets old enough is just pointless.... Like dogs, or cats. |
I have seen a six year old sitting outside smoking a cigarette with her parent lately. This is the same little kid who tells all adults off, and her mother keyed my car, and let all of the air out of two of my tires. People can be assholes, and many of them raise their kids to be assholes too. |
spanked with a cross. I wasn't spanked as a child but oddly it seems that the majority of my Catholic friends were. But like, isn't that against the Christian rules? My friend and her husband were trading stories about being beaten with belts, I thought it was disturbing. As an adult I would say being beaten with a belt would be pretty painful, I would call the cops if someone was beating me with a belt buckle, more the less someone twice my size. There's a difference between a normal physical interaction where the parent tries to get in control and that. I see women on the train pop their kids all the time too. I dunno what to think. |
|
i don't think i will be spanking. its a matter of communication, and I think disapointment and punishment can best be delivered in other ways. but like kazooo said, what of a child who is deprived of occasional child hood spanking? would Cats thread be even relavent without it? |
Most parents today have a common theme. "I can't be bothered with what my children are doing, it takes too much work and attention. That's what the internet and TV are for, right? Instead, I would rather spend my time and energy telling YOU how to raise YOUR child". |
A spoiled rotten brat. Period. Your average child will not take other peoples feelings into consideration. That is normal. They are mostly concerned with "Me" and "Right Now". Sometimes you have to create a fear of consequences first, which would affect "me" and "Right now". Then later work on the respect for other people and thinking beyond "right now". |
A spoiled rotten brat. Period." what a load of poop spunk. |
As I said, I was never spanked. My parents (especially my dad) focused more on natural consequences. I'm not close to my parents, but I still feel the effect of their dissapointment if I fuck up. Different kids work differently. My little brother Nick (age 6) has never been spanked. Far from being spoiled, he's got a generous and compassionate heart. Once, after he was sent to his room for misbehaving while I was visiting, he came back in tears because he thought I was mad and didn't like him anymore. Not all kids need to be hit in order to understand that actions have consequences. I'm not convinced that any do. And spunky, your generalization is just wrong. Cat's nephew, regardless of how he was punished at home, did not have that kindness spanked into him. |
And so is anyone that says a spank is abuse, or has no effect or creates worse problems. |
|
What does some one stand there shouting "I am not going to spank you?" Or is that vehemently? Some of my Mom's friend's kids are about the same age as my brother and I. She did not believe in spankings either. Instead she explained why they should not do these things, how thier actions could affect other people, and repeately begged them not to do these things (break other kid's toys, smack other kids, etc etc). Sometimes those conversations eneded with the boys yelling at the mommy, and even smacking her face on a couple of occasions. They got grounded, they got sent to bed early, etc etc etc. Nothing worked. They needed a good spank. |
|
And the heart of the matter. You cannot create a blanket statement saying that spanking is equal to abuse. Beatings, hitting, using a paddle or belt or shoe or brush, etc, that is in my opinion, abuse. But a smack on the butt or on the hand with an open hand stings the person giving the spank as much as the person receiving it. |
|
What she still seems to not have noticed is, the kid is doing it because she is rewarding his negative behavior with special alone time with Mommy where all of her attention is fixed on him. He doesn't care what she says to him 'you'r bad, that was wrong, you hurt granny's feelings', the important part is she's just saying it to him. Then he goes out and is bad again because she keeps on rewarding him. I really hate badly behaved children. So I always tell parents of good children what a good parent they must be since their child is so nice. |
misbehaved, we gathered up all the children in his or her local peer group and made them watch while we stood the bad kid up against the wall and shot him/her. That would learn 'em!!! |
|
really. |
I was spanked once. I don't know what I did, but my mom flipped out and majorly spanked me. Disciplining your child when you're angry is not the way to go about it. It was a very odd event. One of those particularily lucid childhood memories. |
But still, her child runs her life not the other way around. God, that must get exhausting. |
|
|
instead of shooting the kid himself, how about a random classmate? for your sins, billy dies. <bang>. |
|
|
|
|
|
But the Buddha is my DJ. |
|
i think spanking isn't a good idea because of my own experiences.i have always felt my parents did it to me as a "power thing".i was paddled,switched,belted, and pretty much anything else you wanna name. once i got in trouble for a minor thing(i left my radio in the living room) and my dad went ballistic.he screamed at me and punched, threw me across the room and then spanked me. i was 13. i feel that you shouldn't spank older kids because it's like grabbing somebody's butt. it's too sexual. i may spank my kids someday, but only as a last resort, and never abusively. |
But you have to consider the consequences of spanking. you might have 'corrected' your child, they might have learned a lesson. But when I sit back and think about the times I got the wooden spoon or a mouth washed out with soap, I resent my parents for it. Kids I know who didnt get that sort of treatment from time to time hear stories from me or others and they're horrified. So think about that, mums and dads. Some might not be so forgiving as me and resent you forever if you dont know how to handle punishment. |
there is a line, but the problem is that the line is unclear and so many many people would define their abuse of their kids as simple "discipline". I have trouble talking to Rowlf's mom sometimes knowing she put soap in his mouth. To me, that's fucked up. |
. I don't remember biting the kid, though I probably did. I don't remember the spanking, though I clearly recieved one. But I remember my dad talking to me afterward and his dissapointment in me for biting this kid. I burst into tears and said, "He bit me first!" Another spanking would have been easier to deal with than that talk. . At that same daycare, swearing was not punished with soap. They used hot sauce. Tabasco or something. Most little kids can't handle that. They scream a lot. Not much swearing in Toddle Town. |
and it didnt work either. fuck fuckity fuck fuck |
|
|
just great. really truly great. |
|
|