Here I am again, the cross dressing pervert. Can't get enough? We'll here I am in my cotton lace panties, thigh highs and garter belt, with my satin bra and blonde wig. I'd tell you more, but innocent ears are about...oh hell, I'm masturbating while watching a porno and I'm gonna cum onto my chest!!!

So, like, what's happening in the porno you're watching?

And if you masturbating and watching a porno how long did it take you to type that post?

And how often do you change your keyboard?

Cotton lace? amature.

Would you let me cut of your penis?The lace panties would look so much better without that nasty bulge,trust me.

jesus. what the hell is up with you and this castration obsession? i think the doc needs to up your meds.

some doc needs to up my script, 10mg valium, I am tired of doubling up on the 5's

When men tell jokes like "What's the best kind of woman? One with no legs so she's tall enough to suck my dick and a flat head so I can have someplace to put my beer" (something like that, a co-workers favorite joke) you've gotta give 'em a few penis slashing jokes. Someone on here that women women are more capable of nuanced thought. Not true. They are simply politic in social matters. Now they are fighting that scourge Men. They must fight like Men.

um yeah, ok, what she said. right on.

they don't call you "waffleboy" for nothin'.

no sirreee bob!!!! i am there to waffle on any subject i can...anytime...

I'm a man. One of semi-hairy apes with a snippable dangler. And Actually I was being semi-ironic. Meaning that I can understand the equal and opposite reaction approach to male chauvinism and all that shit, but I also get the impression that they don't seem to have any clear ideas as goals as far as feminism goes. Meaning that "the right to be fat", "the right not to look like a babe and be attractive"(the things that take up the most memory on these boards), and all that stuff are utter red herrings and make the women's movement seem passive-aggressive (a term that makes me wanna puke, but it seems to fit. first time I've ever used it.) These are marginal issues if you are talking about a political issue. I once met and Englishman who was a socialist. I can't speak for all English socialists, but this one gave me the impression that his socialism was almost an upper-class prophylactic. Meaning "we will give the proles enough to make them happy and stem an further problems." (this is certainly not what he said, but that was my impression.) He seemed to see the U.S. as being run by the worst elements. A snob, he was. Anyway, the impression I get from the women here is that they are simply asking for lip-service of some sort and a few superficial perks but nothing of any real political consequence. Women talk about standards of beauty apparently set by men, but men only react stupidly to standards that I've been raised by others. Mostly by women feel they have to compete in that arena. And yes I know we are idiots who drift over to the first beacon of blonde hair and breasts, but it's not The Issue. Nobody ever says "equality" here, in the workplace or at home or what have you. Guerrilla warfare is fine, but you Sorabji women fight like troups without a leader hitting the first camp they stumble upon. So, there's my totally wrong-headed, unnuanced male misapprehensions. You may now give me one of those sarcastic "ooh baby I'm just soo attracted to you" jibes that you like to throw at unenlightened men. Or you may commence my genital amputation.

looks like we've got a real-live martyr here. although i think the whole "standard of beauty" argument is a slightly amusing pile of bullshit. any person, man or woman, who is affected by media-created standards to the point of emotional dysfunction has much larger than problems than just feeling "unattractive". life's rough. buy a fucking helmet.

I think I'm just gonna wait for RC on this one.

Well, let me just say - I don't think I'm a martyr. All that stuff at the end had to do with being tired and anticipating the fact that no woman would have listened or answered whatever point I might have had. Which is: if women think they are in some kind of battle, choose your battles wisely. If I were you, I would marginalize the looks issues and go for the real meat. If I sounded soft, boys, it's just because women never actually listen to men as far as their side of the issue goes. Give a woman your side and the all but shake their head, cover their ears and say "I don't want to hear it." The men here never make good arguments, it's always "oh yeah, well what abuot you!" The women give back as good as they get and everybody goes on till they get tired and annoyed and talk non-issues. Nobody actually discusses anything. And to be honest, I've never thought about or gave about things before I stumbled onto this place, and probably still don't. What annoys me is the utter pointlessness with which you all argue points that are supposed to be important to you.

Oh, puh-lease. The only reason I can spend so much energy blithering on about this crap is because I've already shelved it, in terms of issue hood, and am just interested in untangling the minds of other women on issues I have myself at least thought about. And thanks so much for letting us know what the _real_ political issues are. Because we ARE totally distracted by infighting and stuff that's superficial compared to a more robust, masculine understanding of relative importance in the constellation of the ways the world's fucked. A lot of the point of the way I argue, and the way I've noted engagement by others on this board, is a certain attention to style, as in not some mealy mouthed pathetic "Thus" but "ALSO," IN THIS WAY, sprach zarathustra's snake-head-biting-off ass. This is a proving grounds for language. I take ideas and their expression seriously. I have not been disappointed with the quality of either on this board, and I assume that the things that I don't hear mentioned (except they are, I can think of one post by Cyst in particular) are being worked on and are not even worth mentioning because they're so, duh, obvious. In closing: bite me.

i love you margaret...and I as a man do not stray to the first beacon of blonde and boobs, I like small chested reds, despite my passion for howard stern and his lenny bruce-esq sense of humor i am slightly annoyed whenever he has some porn star on his show and he raves about her 88-ZZZ teats. But then again he is smart, he is appealing to his massive demographics (he is a business right?) and I guess that is what saddens me. But women I hope know if not let ME be the beacon of the sensitive male and say WE ALL DON"T GET OUR ROCKS OFF ON large racks and blonde hair, try wit, strength, confidence, intelligence, determination and the ability to say what she wants. At this point in the list... hips, bust,bottom etc etc etc fall into place. I live in LA, fake boobies, blonde hair and sport utes make me vomit. Ever heard of vaginal rejuvination?? Its a practice that i have seen advertised here where a lady goes and gets her "love canal" stitched tighter......i think this and the aforementioned items derserve a big ass PUHHHHLEEEEEEZZZE

i just reread my blurb, boy am i gonna get it from someone

i thought sensitive males became extinct in the 80's. if i remember correctly, the women ate them alive.

no they were the "fashionable males" they fell with rise of grunge............

i like to fuck.

Red hair is a good thing,but that messing with the love canal business,thats scarey.So are these women who need the stitches fucking horses,or what?

yes indeed red hair is a very good thing and I am a lucky to have married one....YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! I consider it like finding a four leafed clover, not that brunnetes aren't special...anyway, no it's purely cosmetic, women who have kids may benefit. I dunno, maybe that up in coming actress here in town who wants that producer to think she was the best lay in town (so she will get the part) find this type of surgery appealing, just leaf through the LA weekly (the free alt rag) and every page has some sort of superficial surgery/lipo/breast augmentation/botox/lip enlarge/fat sucking company...its LA man

What planet is this Bowgett from? <Anyway, the impression I get from the women here is that they are simply asking for lip-service of some sort and a few superficial perks but nothing of any real political consequence.> You're a newbie/but I will advise you on behalf of the regulars (not that I am anybody's spokesperson -- they are all quite eloquent in their own right)/ that as far as the Women of Sorabji are concerned/the men we encounter here are/for the most part/fairly progressive in terms of theire 'tudes abt women. Which is why we let them hang here in the 1st place. (And if you turn out to be Oatboy in disguise/God help you...) Some of the guys are prone to occasional bouts of feminist-baiting/as sport. Nate is esp. good at this. But of all the Men of Sorabji/Nate is probably the most traditionally respectful & willing to rescue the proverbvial damsel in distress. (I looked for his "Married 1 year: May the Good Lord Keep My Hands from His Neck" thread/in order to post a link for you. But the Sorabji search engine conked out on me before it cd retrieve same.) And Swine likes to fuck w/some of us on occasion. Becuz he is the King of Perversity & the Sarcastic Snappy Retort. But the men who frequent this place generally respect their sisters/mothers/paramours/the avg. woman-on-the-street/& the women who also frequent this place. So we have no need of "lip-service" from them. (Unless it's of the cunnulingual kind.) Becuz they are not The Enemy. <Women talk about standards of beauty apparently set by men, but men only react stupidly to standards that I've been raised by others.> I"m having problems w/yr syntax here... What are you trying to say? <Mostly by women feel they have to compete in that arena. And yes I know we are idiots who drift over to the first beacon of blonde hair and breasts, but it's not The Issue.> Beg to differ: That is a large part of The Issue -- i.e. that powerful men get to set the standards for what is 'beautiful' for all women. Yet these same men/& many others who will never set the standard for anything other than how many 6-pks. they can chug in one sitting/are STILL attracted to women w/fake tits & hair. Even though these men know they're fake. Which makes them dumb as doorposts/in my book. An old drinking buddy of mine put it best: "Fake boobs are like fake diamonds. They have definite flash value. But at the end of they day/they're worthless. And a smart man will chose the genuine article over the fakes." But speaking for myself/I'm one of the few non-White folks who frequent this place. So the whole 'standard of beauty' thing puts me out of the loop from jump/as a Black woman. But I dealt w/that issue & resolved it for myself years ago. However/it doesn't puzzle me any less today when men like you try to play that "women are their own worst enemies" trick-bag on us. I don't view myself as competing w/other women. The shit I've got w/me is uniquiely mine/& the Right Man for me will notice me no matter who else is there. My greatest competetion is in trying to reinvent the standards men set that exclude me from Day One. (And no/I'm not fat or ugly/thanyouyverymuch.) But the majority of White men (except for DeNiro) wdn't look at me twice/beucz I don't embody the image they've been taught to believe is 'beauty' in a woman. Considering that women are in the majority on this plaent/& most of the women on this planet are not White/not blonde/not English-speaking/not Western/not surgically enhanced/& not a size 6/where does that leave the majority of us in terms of the White male beauty myth? And why shd a select minotiry of White males have the power to set the standards for the whole fucking world? But tell us/Bowgett: What did the last woman YOU dated look like? If you're married/what does yr wife look like? Or better yet/what did the last woman you turned down look like? Did you reject her becuz you thought she didn't have very much on the ball intellectually? Becuz she hadn't read a book in years? Or becuz she was too fat/too small-breasted/not feminine enuf/not pretty enuf? And what do those terms really mean to you? Wd you accept a man rejecting yr daughter for the same reasons? The issues for most of the women here/IMHO /are : 1. Can a man appreciate our minds as much as he appreciates our bodies? Becuz all bodies get worse w/age/but the mind improves over time. 2. Is he good in bed -- i.e. inventive/willing to try new things/& focused on pleasing us? 3. Has he been honest w/us in terms of his present romantic entanglements? Becuz none of us likes a rude awakening in the middle of the 2nd act. 4. Altho' some of us are babes/& some of us are avg. looking/any one of us wd be more than willing to spend an evening w/most ofthe men who frequent this place. We have no idea of what they look like for the most part (except fo Nate/who's a hottie). But we know that they are smart/funny/clever (which is different from smart)/witty (which is different from funny) /engaging/& can party like rock stars. They all have original opinions & are articulate enuf & open enuf to express them. That is most of what we hope for in any man we might choose to spend an evening/or a nite/with. Do you fit the bill? Wd you even consider going out w/a woman like any of the ones whose posts you've read here? (And we do talk abt many other things besides beauty issues...)

<<the men we encounter here are/for the most part/fairly progressive in terms of theire 'tudes abt women.>> bbwwwaaaahahahahahahahah!! whoooo that's a good one! <<But the men who frequent this place generally respect their sisters/mothers/paramours/the avg. woman-on-the-street/& the women who also frequent this place. So we have no need of "lip-service" from them. (Unless it's of the cunnulingual kind.) Becuz they are not The Enemy.>> it is my opinion that the people who frequent Sorabji.com are no better and no worse than the population at large. i think we are totally average in all respects, including being opinionated to the EXTREME, and very judgemental. but certainly there is not one of us here who is a saint. except Mark, naturally.

That's yr opinion & you're certainly entitled to it. However/from having had conversations thru other channels w/some of these men/& learning thru same that some of the shit they post here is strictly for shock value/I beg to differ. And Mark hardly ever contributes to the boards/so I wdn't even begin to speculate on his opinions abt women.

<<the men we encounter here are/for the most part/fairly progressive in terms of their 'tudes abt women.>> i don't even know what that means. most of the women here are pretty standard in regard to their attitudes about men. next time i go out for drinks with mark i'm gonna talk him into taping the whole mess and converting it into a real audio feed so you can hear the "saint" in action. <<the people who frequent Sorabji.com are no better and no worse than the population at large.>> pffffft. speak for yourself.

oh please. you people need to get your sarcasm attentae adjusted. and i always only speak for myself... but at least i sometimes have something of substance to say, as opposed reducing every conversation on these boards with sweeping, meaningless generalizations, ended with a cute little turn of phrase, disguised as wit.

I'm from this planet - the real world - R.C., and I still can't shake the feelings I've expressed. Granted, I haven't lived her for months or years, but the same things being said here are being said elsewhere. I notice the gentleman called Swine gave a quiet "I can see his point" kind of noise, so I can't be that alone. As far as the men here, I feel fairly confident in saying (inasmuch as I understand the male psyche) that there's no way they are as "progressive" (whatever that means) as you say. I think it's just possible that they don't want to say anything that would send them out of your good graces. We do so like to be liked by women. Dontcha think maybe that the old "keep your mouth shut except to tell her she's thin, pretty, smart or whatever else she wants to hear" is in play? Not totally, but in the way it works in all male/female relationships. I've places where the men who post here are bothered by the things the women here are saying. I've seen the word "hypocrisy" used. All I'm saying is that, judging from what I read here, all women seem to think about is what men find attractive. R.C. pretty much based her whole answer on that. It makes it sound to me that what women want is not equality or whatever but to be taken out on dates even on a bad hair day. I know that's not true, but shit, it's all anyone talks about. It's possible that I've misjudged the fear women as a whole feel about being alone. I've known a lot of independent women, some of them fiercely so, and I've even dated several of them. My mother never remarried after divorcing me father, and actually dated only sporadically and noncommitally, and she tells me she is happy. She tells me she doesn't feel alone, that she likes having something of her own after the spending the first half of her life in "other peoples houses." I know this isn't going to win me any points, but here's a little poem by Charles Bukowski (as near as I can remember it): "When women stop carrying mirrors around with them wherever they go, then they can talk to me about equality." Yeah yeah I know: misogynistic testosterone poet. The point is that if all you can talk about is what men want, you are giving them power. As much of a wonderful dream it would be for every man to be all progressive and giving and perfect like on a soap opera or whatever, they most likely won't.

Bow -- if this discussion seems so pointless to you/you really shd check out the rest of the site. Contrary to what you think (considering that I haven't seen you post anywhere else) "what women want is not equality or whatever but to be taken out on dates even on a bad hair day." -- male/female issues are NOTall that we discuss. And getting or staying in my "good graces" is nobody's priority 'round these parts. People say whatever they wish/regardless of what anyone thinks abt it. Which is what keeps this place interesting. And Sarah -- if you can't take the sarcasm/don't dish it out. Becuz you ain't exactly the soul of civility yrself.

who could be the one to break the cycle of hostility and negativity is constantly perpetuated around here? for every nice thing said at this site, there are three mean or dismissive things said. everyone's a critic. i try so hard not to let folks drag me down with them, but the smartass in me can't help it sometimes, especially when i get pissed off. i have more thn a little devil sittin on my shoulder, that's no secret. in spite of all the bullshit though, i actually care quite a lot about some of you Sorabjiites. if i didn't care, i wouldn't get pissed off. it beats out apathy and dismissiveness any day.

I didn't actually mean just here. I was here for the big Fat discussions, though. Even posted under some name I can't remember now, but I didn't say much worth hearing. I was really disturbed by those boards though, for reasons it's too late for me to try figure out. Mebbe it's just cause I'm a cynic. Don't even know why I should care. As of 3 years ago I'm a fag. My mandude is Alex; he's a polyglot who's on a secret mission in Germany. Before he left he grew a beard. It makes him look exactly like Stephen Spielberg. Got a postcard from him from Munchen - it has a picture of a dancing bear playing an accordian. It reads: Liebe Robert: I looked at this and it reminded me of you, Mumbling Bear [don't ask]. I've decided you're right, my life has taken an entirely wrong direction, if there is such a thing, but I think I've decided that many times. So it doesn't help things, but I think I want to be an alt hoch Deutsch scholar, after I spend a few years tuna fishing in the Atlantic. I've been reading works from the Minnesangers - Hautman von Ave, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Walther von der Vogelweider, just to name a few in a scholarly way, and it's been turning me on. I want to slobber when I read, and I think that's only possible when you read Medieval Literature. What do you think? Should it give me a boner when I read about King Arthur and his nights? All of my love, all of my kisses xxx Alex.

what was the question?

bowgett - what are the real issues of american feminism supposed to be? legalization of ru-486 is the top issue as far as I'm concerned. also, washington state apparently has a pilot program in which emergency contraceptives are available without prescription at any drugstore that chooses to dole them out. and the major chains do. I am very glad that when I get back to portland, I'll be able to hop over the river and get "the morning-after pill" on any sunday a.m. if I so desire. that is great. this program needs to be expanded to more states, and it needs to be widely publicized. equal pay for equal work is a much more complicated issue that doesn't lend itself as well to simple legislation. any ideas anyone has on making this happen will be carefully read by me. what the media decides to push as "attractive," who chooses to believe it, and who wants to sleep with whom are not issues I'll be protesting anytime soon.

But get this -- Walmart refuses to carry the current Morning After pill! Not RU486 (which isn't legal yet here/& probably never will be). I'm talking abt the basic double-dose oral contraceptives that you can get from any M.D. to prevent a preganacy after unprotected sex. Most gyns donm't even tell their patients abt the Morning After pill! I had to specifically ask for it (but this was years ago). Horray for Washington state! (No wonder Aggie chooses to live there.) I used to have a Morning After kit/but I kept it so long the pills expired. Next time I go for my annual/I'm gonna ask for a script. And for me/big issues like that tie into the smaller issues of male-female relations/body image/beauty/etc. It's all of a piece when women aren't taken seriously as human beings by the men who get to pass the laws in this country.

The reason women talk so much about what men find attractive is because for the past few centuries it's been pounded into our skulls that that's really important, and we're just lately trying to get it clear to ourselves that it's Not important. We know it in our rational minds, but it's a hard idea to get after so many years of training, and it's gonna take a while. So pardon us while we remind ourselves every once in a while that our own opinions matter. Bowgett, I also like the way you end your posts with a little "No one's gonna read this, and even if you do I know you'll all disagree with me" message to ensure that the reader feels silly about disagreeing with you. That's cute.

Fuck tha police (especially the feminist police). I'm too lazy to view the source on this shit to make sure I'm not being set-up by some smart-ass, so I'm going to restrain myself and not post anything worth shit. Oh, fuck it. (1) I have a real problem with people telling me what should be on my agenda as a feminist, and telling me how to interact with my sisters. It was this kind of shit coming from white liberal feminists which caused the brillian poet Nikki Giovanni to pen a little number she called "What You Mean We, White Girl?" I have spoken about solidarity, and I am sort of in favor of it in a vague confederation-like rather than federal and centralized arrangement. It ain't coalition politics, it is rather sort of the focus around specific issues you can get behind as described in Ernesto Laclau and Chantal Mouffe's "Hegemony and Socialist Strategy." I do not expect my priorities to be the priorities of my sisters and god knows even if I had the thought in my head I would not have the sheer arrogance to tell her she was wasting her energies worrying about problem X when I have identified the most pressing problem for feminism and it ain't what she's frittering away after. (2) I am not especially intrigued by the beauty issue, but I recognize that it is important, if only as a way for actual women to think about their expectations of themselves. I don't blame men for this crap, and I don't blame Madison Ave. I pretty much don't have a target for any resentment I feel, but the closest I come to being irritated about it is at my mother and her generation (but NOT for women of a previous generation). But moms did ok by me and did teach me that the meatmobile was far less important than the engine that drives it, even though she can't restrain herself from mentioning how big my ass has gotten. It's forgivable; it is revenge for my arrogant assumption from 16-24 that I would always be thin and pretty and young. (3) Amateur.

And wouldn't you rather be wearing PANTINES muthafuckah?

i love you Margaret.............really, as I scroll through the sheeyat.....i eagerly await to see the big yellow script.."MARGARET".....this thread has become so needlessly deep and strangly entangled with mumbo jumbo, yada yada yada..i can't see straight anymore..I tend to think we are overlooking abit of nature here...not that i ignore that we are rational intelligent beings, we still are animals in a primative sense...there are things that drive us that we are not readily aware of....when was the last you smelled phermones? yet they exist, and there is substantial evidence to prove they have an impact on our mate selections ...men strive to appease women (the peacock syndrom, the bullfrog with the biggest throat thingy, the buck with the biggest horns etc etc) females/women are the selective ones i think, they hold all the power in most relationships, we can't have sex if they don't spread their legs so to speak, they call the shots. I believe men have an inate sense to fuck everything they can, it's nature encouraging the survival of the species and women have an instinct to hold out for the best she can, to encourage the progression of the species, it's a beautiful combination, yes? I believe hold much power naturally and to deny them a promotion because of their sex or to institute male ideals upon them (i.e. the barbie doll syndrome)...it's our failing way to control what little control we have.. if a man and a woman were to play the "lets-see-how-long-we-can-abstain-from-sex-game"...Guess who would win...i know this all may seem erratic, it's 9 am for me and stay up late drinkin so my wits aren't all there but hopefully you get my drift..

First, I didn't put the little postcard up on the board because I thought anybody would be interested in my personal life. The first two answers I got were essentially "don't give me your macho bullshit" and "what kind of women do YOU like?", so it seemed fitting that I should let you in on the fact that I dig smart, funny-looking men. And yes, Gee, I'm a little embarrassed myself about sad little ways I end the posts. Still, Margaret's posts are what pretty much what I was predicting: I will not listen to you because you are male. My thing is, I think a lot of women think the way that men think about a lot of things is wrong, but that's not always the same as understanding them. I think that most men don't understand what women want because women don't always now exactly what they want. What Gee said about things being drummed into women's heads is true, but men don't understand what that means out of laziness or just not knowing what they need to do because it seems to have something to do with changing all men en masse. What I see a lot of is women saying "I want you to give me x" and men saying "If you want it take it, don't bother me." Or: "I want you to accept me for more than just the way I look" and "Then put self-acceptance first and acceptance by men second." Both of these statements pretty much dump the responsibility on the other side. What happens is shouting matching of single-note blasts that rage on for a while till both parties collapse in exhaustion with a "I really don't care what your ass looks like" and a "I really can do like myself for who I am." But it doesn't mean anything is resolved, it just means you need a breather. The reason I presume to say all of this is out of concern for individual women that I know personally. Unclear feminism is making a lot of women miserable because it breeds a sense of anger but with vague targets that are often the wrong targets. Once a frien of mine and I were sitting on his back porch, and we noticed his cat out in the yard batting a mouse around. Seemed cartoonish and like cutesy feline sadism. My friend said, "caught between two worlds. I fed her all her life and he's forgotten how to hunt, but the instinct's still there. She know's she's supposed to do something with the mouse, but not exactly what." I think women are often angry in the right general direction but too far afield of what would actually be good. I've seen this in women whow were in their 20's in the 70's and those who are in their 20's now. Like what men find attractive, which I think is marginal the issue of women having control over their bodies, destiny whatever because it assumes have the control. Most of Margaret's non-answers have been along the lines of "don't tell me what to do" and "feminism needs no explanation because you just agree with it." I think that's wrong because I think she is living off just being a part of a movement that she knows speaks for her but allows to do all much of the thinking for her. Too many men stroke women by saying "I love you margaret" or whatever for what is simple stridency. Being congratulated for simply holding some belief kills the belief. Feminism is good, but blindly following it and feeling intelligent and strong for doing so isn't. If you just scream and yell about the unimportant stuff, men will counter with their own prejudicial crap and malformed ideas or else be solicitous - which I think women often count on.

on the contrary, i think many men, including myself have suffered a backlash from extremist feminism, we are confused about our roles, we want to do the right thing, but it US who are confused. Women at times want us to be strong and the hunterer & gatherer and at times they don't they want us to shut up and listen and sympathize with their day to day crap. I certainly don't have it all pegged yet but I am working on it. After being with a very strong headed woman for nearly six years I am constantly struggling to meet her needs. Its impossible to meet them all at once, if I am good at one i find myself lacking on another. But as a human she is understanding and frankly the same can be said for her as well. I am not stroking Margaret by saying "I love you" I will tell you and her what I mean by that......the words she says, the way she says them, the sharp wit included i find to be a big turn on to me, intellectually that is. As I have stated she reminds me off someone whom I was once very close with....i guess its personal nostalgia that has nothing to do with her opionion, its the way she says it, and thats all that really matters. On the contrary I don't think margaret lets the movement say ANYTHING for her. She is not a blanket feminist, in fact the true definition for feminism is simply put, EQUAL RIGHTS....it doesn't give greater power to either or, yet certain facets of the movement have encompassed other issues which lead astray from feminism and into what i would coin sexism, and if I had to speculate, i would say these are the issues she rejects, but she should really speak for herself....

(1) I have not said anyone's opinion is invalid about this due to gender. I DID parody thanking you for setting me straight, and I also suggested I don't need anyone to help me police my priorities -- this included everyone on the board. (2) I am not part of any "movement." I share a number of interests with lots of different people; some of the interests and some of the people are feminist...not necessarily always at the same time. (3) You appear to have a reading comprehension problem. (4) Does stridency mean having better grammar, spelling and vocabulary not to mention understanding of both the history and contexts of American feminism than you do, or is it that thing where my ovaries make me take you seriously when I should just invite you to have a shit flinging contest with me in Swine's monkeycage, bitch?

margaret i assume all of that was directed at bowgett?? I hope so anyway.....i say make it a shit flinging evening, i ll bring the vodka...margaret out of curiosity, do you live in NJ?

It was a response to the post which specifically targeted me as a mindless uncritical manhating herd-creature. I would apologize for losing my temper, but Swine has previously cautioned me not to. I do not now, nor have I ever, live(d) in New Jersey. I currently reside in Colorado, but grew up on the East Coast, and went to College in the Mid-West. Just for the record, though I am not overly irritated about it, my name is spelled M-A-R-G-R-E-T. My mom was a phonetic speller. The reason the fat issue was originally tabled was, as I understood it, that feelings were running too high on all sides and people were talking past one another. Also for the record, the Pantines comment was directed at adam/atom/adaam/whoever, and referred to a previous thread.

hey waffleboy. how much does your dominatrix charge you?

got it Margret, unsure of the fat issue and unsure of the Pantines issue. Ok just wondering if by some strange fucking coincidence you were a long lost friend, you sure as hell speak like her, diction wise and inflection wise and you share the same name.....obviously spelling and locale rule it out ........................what happened to my Kate Moss pics? i have some of my photographs i am working on I can trade you if you don't mind risque shots (thats all I have scanned at the moment for no particular reason)

i am married to her, ITS ALL FREE!!!!!!!!

damn. you got the hook-up.

FYI, I found a rockin new website recently, it's a fem-erotica online zine. VERY COOL, and frankly quite hot but so very tastefuly done if anyone cares. check it out.... www.scarletletters.com

Waffleboy - what you said was pretty much what I am desperately trying to say: I am confused. I want to know what women want. All of this has nothing to do with my telling anybody what to do or being smarter (though I expect that's what people think) but reaction to what at least I think I see around me. It's one thing for one man to give one woman something, but I'm talking what all women want. When a woman expresses to me her anger with men, I listen and try work things out; but things are always left unresolved because even if whatever was bothering her had been worked out, anything between Men and Women still hangs in the air. So I'm left to mull over it and all of these posts are what I've come up with. I don't have all of this worked out and I'm pretty much making up all of this as I go along. Haven't got it all pegged, so I assumed I could work on it here. Margret - You that you remind ME of someone too, someone who fits the description I gave of you. She is strident. Look, in some of your responses your begging me to make this a shouting match between you and me, so I'll keep my ungrammatical mouth shut. However, I swear I am not trying to tell you how to conduct anything. I just mean that even if you have a handle on feminism and related issues, men are lost. This one is. And it seems to me that you did pretty much say that my opinions are invalid because I am a man. I don't know where the sex game begins and equality for women part begins and how and where they're overlapping. And it's still what everybodies talking about, whether or not anybody's tabled weight issues or not. What do I say to women and what do they need from me that I don't already give them as a decent human being? Margret hasn't said anything about how a woman feels (or how it feels to be a woman?) and won't condescend to tell me about feminism.

(1) There are many feminisms and, sadly, I am best at the academic kind. Which has helped me to develop myself as a person but which is no more universal-izable than any other -ism. (2) This Women and Men thing is culturally specific. I don't know what Women want from Men, because I think I am out of the loop on this one. I will tell you what I want from men, which is really the best I can do, though I might be able to offer not entirely inaccurate guesses about what some of my best female friends want. I want most men to treat me the way I treat them: like I don't think they're from an alien species that needs to be explained to me. I realize there are some abysses between Men and Women, and I don't want to have the nature/culture argument (I come down really firmly on the culture side but I don't want Sarah to be disappointed in me). I expect the same things of men that I expect of myself, that they will enlarge their notion of self to include those they have come to think of as family, that therefor when they act with self-interest that interest is more expansive than the atomistic version put forth by Hobbes in "Leviathan," that they approach problems with logic first. That they react with curiousity before hostility, which I do not always do but which I do _try_ to do. That they are interested in me as a person before they're interested in me, or even to the exclusion of me, as a sexual person. (3) I have an incoming phone call so I gotta go. -- margret

well bow, first its hard to grasp where you are coming from specifically, you seem to be all over the map as far what your issues are. I can say that if I were in the dating pool, I might be having a more difficult time. Frankly I can say the best advise is this, and the ladies may wish to chip in. I BELIEVE the essentials to a womans needs to be the following: trust, they need your trust, they need your respect as minds FIRST, bodies SECOND. I have found the quickest way into my wife's panties are by appeasing her mind, THATS WHY SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH ME. You can wave yer pecker and shake your as and whatever else it is women get turned on by but it doesn't mean shit if she feels you are belittling her behind her back or don't take her seriously. Women need to be taken SLOWLY, nothing too fast, once you have "captured" her imagination, mind,envy what have you SHE will pick up the pace beyond belief. I have found patience to be the biggest virtue for man when dealing with women. The rewards of patience are over whelming. I think the majority of women have a slightly higher sense of vanity, there is nothing worng with this, i believe plastic surgery and breast jobs to be the extreme, but having fun playing with clothes, hair colors, makeups or whatever is something that i believe to be harmless, who gives a rats ass if it those kinds of things make a girl feel good, we scratch our nuts and it makes us feel good, so what. Who doesn't want to look and feel good? Feminism should be redefined, and equality substituted. I think you might be taking feminism (societies definition) too hard, i dunno, i have ameeting and this subject is becoming too ...whatever

Bow -- if you want to know what a particular woman wants/ask HER. No one female speaks for all of us. If talking it out doesn't resolve the issue at the moment/fine. It's taken all of human history for us to reach a point where men & women can speak frankly abt these issues. Do you really expect to resolve them in one sitting? If you aren't clear on what the issues are/do some reading. Or poll all the women you know abt what their top 3 issues are re: feminism. At least one of those women will probably recoil at the term & tell you she is adamantly NOT a feminist. But in the next breath/she start bitching abt the less-experienced man who was promoted ahead of her at work. Or why her daughter doesn't get called on in class as much as the boys. Or how come her husband doesn't help w/the housework. So she's dealing w/feminist issues/even if she's scared to consider herself a feminist. Feminism isn't some grand monolith. It's millions of individual women w/their own brains/dealing w/the individual men they know/work with/live w/etc. & the issues gender raises within whatever context applies at the time. It is also deeply rooted in culture. But feminism has been defined & promoted predominantly by middle -class White women for so long that it's often diffucult to think abt in a cross-cultural context. But that doesn't mean you shdn't try.

right on RC with your infinite wisdom and sensabilities...take a bow sweetheart!!!

I'd rather have a hit. Got coke?

i just wanted to say that i resent being lumped together with anyone, ever. i have read at least two references to some such, "you women of sorabji" and "we people of sorabji." we are all individuals, we are not the same, we come from different backgrounds, places, points of view- please don't lump us into one unit. thanks for your time. by the way, red is my favorite hair color, as well.

Bowgett - At this point I don't think it matters what men think or do in regards to how women look/act/think about themselves...whatever. I realize I'm stating a rare (probably) opinion here, but: While I DO care if some guy is paid more money than me for the same job, or that I get leered at more than my brother (who's better looking than I am), what I'm More concerned with is how I think and feel about myself. The first thing I would like to work on is getting it straight in my head (no doubts, no hypocrisy, 100% sure) that the only opinion that really matters is MINE. As it is, I don't wear make-up and I spend hardly any time at all on my hair. I don't shave when I don't have to, and if I can get away with it I will deffinatly wear the same thing two days in a row. The only problem is that I Know I still care what people think of me. It's not the wild obsession it once was (god how I hated those days), but the thought "Is that compleat and total stranger who I would never go out with for all the tea in china looking at ME?? I wonder if he thinks I'm cute. teehee." does still creep into my mind occasionally. Once I've gotten to the point where I'm not having those kinds of thoughts anymore (probably be 60 by then), THEN I'll work on the whole "equal pay for equal work" issue. Waffel - When I tell my mother that feminism is about equal rights, she always reples "Equal to who?" And if I stopped to think about it, I'd realize she was right. Do I want the same treatment as a 25 year old white male? Or a 40 y/o black man? How about a 70 y/o quadriplegic hispanic fellow?? Even among men there's no such thing as "equal rights". That's why I refuse to use that expression anywhere Near the term feminist. I guess what I really want is human rights. RC - I hear you on the point of women who refuse to admit to being feminist. That just compleatly freaks me out. I just wanna shake them and scream in their faces that they ARE feminists. Then again, sometimes it's not hard to see why some women refuse the "title". In the women's studies area where I go to school there's a huge number of women that believe for you to Really be feminist you have to be a lesbian and compleatly shun men in all ways. And they scream in your face if you try to tell them you Are feminist while holding your boyfriend's hand. That kind of militant attitude is scaring off a Lot of people. Is it a good thing that it's only the title of "feminist" they're running from? I have to admit, I don't usually think of my problems in terms of male/female sexual discrimination, unless it's really overt. I try to keep my eyes open and I am aware that such things are Always going on all over the place, but usually if I'm made to do some grungy job at work or I'm treated differently, I assume it's a personal thing and not because I'm a chick. Again, I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Probably nieve. (sp) Or just a reflection of my low self-esteem.

Ya know, there's always someone out there trying to tell you how to be a feminist. I fucking hate that. When I was in high school, I wrote an horrible piece for the local paper (nicknamed the "crabwrapper") which I am sure will somehow bite me in the ass someday bout how women should be subject to the draft. An opinion, by the way, which I still hold, but it was so arrogantly hostile in that youthful "Why are you all making such a big deal out of women's rights" kinda way. A lot of people were torqued off because I hung out with post-hippies who told me how bullshit the draft was in the first place. I told them to shut the fuck up. I still tell them to shut the fuck up. I'm not a big fan of the military industrial complex, but I believe citizenship entails responsibilities. I also don't think our government will EVER go to "war" like they did in Vietnam again. It's all gonna be Granada/Desert Storm/Bosnia "limited action" forays from now on. One of the responsibilities of citizenship is eternal vigilance. I have enjoyed all of your posts today, Gee.

Anyone who believes or promotes the belief that you can only be a feminist if you're a super- butch manhating lesbian is just as ignorant as the folks who say you can't be a 'real' Black person if you're not poor/uneducated/& listening to hard-core rap music all day long. That shit is so 80's I can't believe it's even considered a legitimate issue any longer. And Gee: When yr Mom asks "Equal to who?" isn't the answer obvious: equal to a man w/the same qualifications as you/when you're doing (or trying to get) the same job? Margret: I sincerely hope that you're right & the draft is a thing of the past. Becuz I don't think defending American geopolitical interests in some foreign country is worth risking MY life for. People got hip to the okay-doke after Vietnam. The children of the ruling class always manage to avoid the draft/while the working-class kids end up getting sent abroad to be shot at & strafed. I say that the next time we invade or send troops into ANY country/the sons & daughters of the Pres./V.P/every member of Congress/every Fortune 500 CEO/& every Hollywood star w/a $20-million-dollar fee per picture/shd be drafted FIRST. Once their kids have served their country for a year/then/maybe/I'll go sign up.

Right on R.C.

if there has to be a draft, then women and men of all socioeconomic classes should be subject to it. I also think the age range should be broadened, perhaps up to age 30 or higher. I was in college when the gulf war started, and a lot of my overparanoid classmates were worried that the u.s. government would start a draft. my rich faux-hippie boyfriend at the time bragged to me that his name wouldn't be called because he never registered with selective service. I told him that was nice for him but he was privileged to be in a position where he could afford college without having registered for the draft. because if you want to get a pell grant or take out a stafford loan, then you have to hand over your selective service number. (except I didn't, because I was part of the other exempt class, with my xx birthright.) it isn't fair that you should have to be part of the government's life-or-death lottery just because you're poor and male and want an education. it's fucked.

i agree cyst, i had to sign because i needed a loan for school, it's total bullshit, my wife and i disagree about this, i first sign of a draft, i am off to mexico, donkey shows and ruffies for me!!!

i don't have my contacts in. if i look at the title of this thread just right, it looks like it says, "i'm wearing laotian panties." the powers that be must be smoking the big rock if they think i'm putting my ass on the line for whatever half-baked scheme they cook up to ensure american interests overseas. fuck them. with the biggest scurvy dick in town.

did i mention donkey shows and slack assed pharmacies???????

a draft would not go over. we need one more generation before they'll be able to pull that again. there are two males in my generation/family. and my brother is a marine. i've never worried about the draft.

i can tell you if you went and signed up for the draft wearing nothing but lace panties you would be promptly excused

No -- you'd need laotion panties. With yr name written inside the waistband.

I hate those thong underwear,who wants to walk around all day with a wedgie?I wouldn,t send my kids to war ever.And I always find it amazing the process we go through to pick out what country we are gonna throw our ass in.I don,t see anyone trying to help the innocent people of Tibet,which is a crying shame.I learned early on to question authority.And for the ladies here,why do we always call Big Bro,or cops, or whatever,THE MAN?

though I am not a lady J, I ask you would you want our authority figures referred to as "the woman"? It's always been the men in charge generaly speaking and as far as your sex goes, be glad those authority figures whom we speak negatively of aren't referred to as "the woman"

I would just love to call Bill Clinton Sister Sleaze.

No,Make that sister slut.

IF DO NO BE TOO HORNY.....CONTROL

What language was that originally written in? I'm guessing Latin...Ovid, maybe?

I think he,s trying to give Clinton some advice,but he,s toooo late.

I thought it was a performance art piece. Clearly, my bad.

jack,this is your kinda thread,tell me about your panties,.....

jack,this is your place,tell us about your panties.