spooky stuff, people. ************************ Clinton comes after the Internet by Joseph Farah http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/19990809_xcbtl_clinton_co.shtml Well, it was a long time coming, but Bill Clinton has finally made his move on the Internet. Late last week, when reporters and members of Congress were going home for the weekend, he issued one of his now-famous executive orders -- this one on "Internet conduct." Like almost all such orders, it will sound quite innocuous on a quick first read. But these guys in the Clinton administration are clever. This action sets up a working group of top U.S. officials to study the whole concept of policing the Internet. No, Clinton doesn't use that word, but that's clearly the intent of this order -- the establishment of a national Internet police force. But if you catch that much -- and few will -- then the wording of this order is designed to make you relax because the working group is simply going to write a report! We all know government reports don't kill people, right? Nobody gets hurt by a government report unless they drop it on you. However, let's take a look at what's being studied here: No. 1 -- How the federal government can insinuate itself into this revolutionary new medium. And, No. 2 -- How new technology tools, capabilities or legal authorities may be required for effective investigation and prosecution. Let me repeat that last purpose behind this working group and this executive order in the actual language used by Clinton: "The extent to which new technology tools, capabilities, or legal authorities may be required for effective investigation and prosecution of unlawful conduct that involves the use of the Internet." Get it? "New technology" equals spying tools. "Capabilities" means surveillance capabilities. And "legal authorities" means Internet police. You've got to understand the bureaucratic jargon here. Think of me as your Clintonese translator. Remember, this is a man who questions what the word "is" means. You've got to leave this to the professionals -- and that means me. Now here's the other scary part of this executive order. Normally with these task forces, the president allows a year or more for study and reports. Not this time. Guess what his deadline is? "The Working Group shall complete its work to the greatest extent possible and present its report and recommendations to the President and Vice President within 120 days of the date of this order," the executive order states. What! That means the report must be prepared before the end of the year. I would suggest to you that this means the report is already drafted. I would suggest further evidence for that conclusion is that Clinton is also requiring the committee to circulate the report to federal agencies well before it comes to the White House. Why would he do that? Because the White House has already seen it. The White House has written it. Who's going to be a part of this working group? The chairman is Janet Reno, and the members are most of the important Cabinet officers. Do you really think those guys and gals could draft a report on policing the Internet in less than 120 days? Uh-uh. Something's up here, folks. Something smells really foul. Now what do you suppose is in that future report? Hillary once told us the Internet needed gatekeepers and controls. "We are all going to have to rethink how we deal with this, because there are all these competing values," Hillary said last year. She also deplored the fact that the Internet lacks "any kind of editing function or gatekeeping function." I think Clinton's about to make his move on our last best hope for freedom -- the Internet. Methinks the Internet is about to get an official editor or a government gatekeeper.

I think, and have always thought, that our "commander in chief" is completely full of shit. He has been using executive orders to subvert the legislative process since day one. And don't even let me get started on Reno. Bottom line: eat your vegetables, play nice with the other children, and keep that AK-47 and 1000 rounds buried with a pack of silica gel under the old apple tree.

Jeez, what a pair of noyas...

Uh-huh. Clinton is subverting the legislative process. Shit. The imperial presidency began its ascendance with FDR and reached its zenith with Nixon. I will not deny that the big C is playing patty cake with the separation of powers. But, ummm, so is the fucking legislature. Time to burn it all down and start over. Hold on, I'll call my dad and get some firepower and thumb through my copy of the federalist papers and reread the constitution and b of r for inspiration.

The fourth Amendment is toast after a rider on the "Antiterrorist Act" or whateverthefuck they called it, which made refusing a search "probable cause" to search someone (nice catch-22 there, huh?). Now they're moving in on the first. And they'll get away with it because the "well-informed eletorate" *is* absolutely necessary for a functioning democracy, and, in this country, it's a joke.

the constituiton, though it has it's wise points has indeed expired i believe. "The fourth Amendment is toast after a rider on the "Antiterrorist Act" or whateverthefuck they called it, which made refusing a search "probable cause" to search someone (nice catch-22 there, huh?)." I a have been victim to this type of persuasion when i got stopped for an expired inspection sticker. The cop said he "smelled pot" I said he is "full of shit". He said what "he smelled" was probably cause. I said I wanted an lawyer or a search warrant before he did a god damn thing. By that time, they had found the nickle bag of weed on my pal who was with me. they just didn't like his orange hair. They were convinced I had coke and proceeded to search my car. They were wrong, they dirtied up my new clean laundry on that wete rainy nite, the threw all my tapes and shot around. Never get caught with anything in Chapel Hill, they'll fuck you good. Fuck th pole-eese like eazy said I heard a cut from the new Q-tip record. it's hot, it features busta rhymes.....out ina few weeks i think

WELL, the first amendment has actually been a victim off and on forever. Its current "first among equals" status has a long and troubled history. Believe you me.

where is my speak and spell

Big Bro will never stop,they use this ploy to supposedly get deadbeat dads, bullshit!They want to own us,its just not right.I,m telling you the day is coming when they will have chips in all of us,it,s started to I.D.pets,then it will be our children,to keep track in case of kidnapping,then the man will force the rest of us.Damn the man,question authority!!!

Notice that the ones decrying the takedown of nine of the B of R are orten the same ones doing a dance on number 2. The founding fathers weren't thinking of citizens having arms to defend themselves from Canada when they wrote about the right of a people to "throw off such government" which oppresses its people.

Well, what I've noticed is that a lot of what Congress (and the sheep I saw on MSNBC's mucker discussion board) is saying is "The culture is to blame, don't take away the second amendment (although "well-regulated militia" has never, by any US court been interpreted to mean Joe-Bob and Bubba and their truck can have Uzis), but the hell with the first"

youth violence has been on the decline since 1995. suicide rates in white males between 10 and 14 have doubled. suicide rates in black males between 10 and 14 have more than doubled. suicide rates in females between 10 and 14 are on the decline. we have no freedom of speach. we are told we have, and we believe it. a country full of suckers. here come the facists. which president will become our ceasar? first they'll lock down our right to own weapons. then one by one the other freedoms go. and there we are, without the means to overthrow the government gone bad.

i am just waiting with match and flag, if they pass the flag burning amendment. Those fuckers don't get it that if they pass that, they will see more flags burned then they ever have.

I fully support any man's right to torch the American flag. And I fully acknowledge my obligation to be thrown into jail for kicking the shit out of the first person who does it in my presence.

It's all about principles, of which there seem to be too few remaining in today's culture. My point above was that convictions require courage, or else they are not convictions, they are merely pretenses. Every last single stinkin' word of the Bill of Rights stands on its own. Changing the first amendment to protect the overly sensitive from offense is as ludicrous as requiring urinalysis to work at Wal-Mart. (Incidentally, has anyone else noted the irony that Wal-Mart requires their employees to pass a drug test but does not require a High School diploma for employment? Perhaps if more of them had stayed awake in civics class they'd see the folly of literally pissing away their civil rights for a low wage job) My last post may have come across as a bit redneck, but the point of it was that no right comes without responsibilities. Every form of civil disobedience has its price. Don't let that price prevent you from standing firm on your principles. And Waffles, I respectfully submit that your logic is completely contradictory. Either stand up and fight for your rights, all of them, or lay down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may your master's chains rest lightly upon your back. You can't have it both ways. Now that I've rambled and digressed myself way the hell out into center field, I think I'll just shut up now.

I am not sure what part is contradictory, explain. I was only stating that I predict that if they make it illegal to burn a flag, you can expect more protests then ever before on the subject and in those protests, flags will be burning. As I said, I have a match and a crisp new flag. I have sent letters to my congess people and my senators. They are not the one's pushing for it. I have played by their rules. I am prepared to resist.

I was referring to your previous statements regarding gun control.

hmm...I see..I think. I was trying to find that post and I had no such luck. My thought on gun control is simple.......they are weapons, a flag, a word, a record, a book are not. I don't view gun control as an infringement on our rights. I don't consider it a right. So if i understand you correctly, you were saying that my desire to limit guns and my desire to to have the freedom to burn a flag are contradictory????? If thats the case, I would say the two are apples and oranges. If I misunderstood you, it's of no consequence............ Naturally I am exhausted of topics of political nature as I am sure others are too........ what a fucked up day, pooch is dead, my wife is coming home, I feel physically weak, Lucy's tongue lashing crawls under my skin like centipede on meth.................emotional fucking roller coaster. I think I will drink 13 beers at the bowling alley tonight.

I predict a declining average score for Waffleboy, and that he will have trouble untying his rental shoes.

oh, you tie those things?

Don't take my challenges to your ideas as personal attacks, they're not. Markus and Nate have already summed up what I would otherwise say next. I am printing up 1000 "Gun-Free and Proud" bumperstickers, free of charge, in appreciation to those of you who are winning the war on crime for the rest of us. Take one for the home and one for the car. But order now, they're going to go fast.

Last night, one of the local news-stations in Philadelphia had a survey on their website asking people if they thought guns should be completely outlawed -- it was about 600 in favor and 1400 against abolition of guns. I was surprised, considering how violent Philly is. And it's not like the criminals were the ones filling out the survey. My two cents: ban them. Look, old Thomas Jefferson, who lived in the age of the front-loading musket, had no idea that in 1990 you could mow down dozens of people with the single touch of a trigger. The 2nd Amendment is outdated and should be revised/eliminated. Hey, they used to have slavery regulations in the Constution, and yet they struck those out. It can be done.

don't worry I haven't seen your comments that way.........

Firstly, fuck Oatmeal...oops, I mean...Waffle Boy Flaming me on the thread where I flamed you is one thing... Now, to the actual discussion at hand, there is an excellent rebuttal of the "We need guns to resist the government" thing at http://www.rawilson.com/prethought.html It's an archive, so, you have to do a find in page for "gun" and that will take you right to the top of the essay I am referring to. On the one hand, I would feel much safer in a society in which there was effective gun control. "Well regulated" is there for a reason. "Well regulated militia" does not mean Joe Bob and Bubba and the pickup truck. On the other hand, the right is stockpiling guns, and I am seeing a large increase in racial violence (and especially anti-Semitic violence), and I don't want them to be the only ones with guns. Fuck, it's the arms race all over again and the racists have a head start over any organized Leftist movement. As such, the NRA and the rest of right-wingers/ and racists have convinced another U.S. citizen to learn to shoot and seriously consider gun ownership, if not in quite the way they expected. Oh, and RE: flag burning, I got this little piece of wisdom from a Mad Magazine fold-in the last time they tried to take away the First Amendment: Q. What is the price of keeping people from burning the flag? A. Burning the Constitution. Of course, they've cut the Constitution full of holes, anyway. What good is the Bill of Rights if the Supreme Court won't defend it? Simon: if you think violence is the answer, you will only hurt your cause. Americans have the First Amendment right to express themselves in any way they wish. Just as you have the First Amendment Right to stage a counterdemonstration. Beating someone up is assault, not civil disobedience.

I don,t have a gun,don,t ever want one,but we have the Right to bear arms,you ban guns all the honest people will give up their guns and the crooks will still have theirs.I guess I,d have to say I agree with Simon with his post about you can burn the flag but he can kick their ass.I,m a member of the D.A.R.,my so many times great grandfather was a Captain under General George Washington,don,t ever forget what those guys were fightng for,you let the man keep taking away your rights and we can all kiss our somewhat free ass,s good-by.

we don't have enough firepower to overthrow the goverment even if we wanted to. gone are the days of revolution and civil war, unless someone can secure us a nuclear weapon or two. face it. our goverment can do whatever the fuck it wants. our votes, in the end, mean nothing.

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." In no state or federal court has that ever been interpreted as Constitutional right of individual private citizens to own as many, and whatever guns they want, or, indeed, any guns at all. "Well regulated" means, well, regulated. However, I am learning to shoot this weekend because there is not really effective gun control in this country and people who want to kill me because of my Jewish heritage are stockpiling guns.

and owning a gun is as useless as burning a flag.

beating someone up is battery, not assault. every state that has permitted its population to carry concealed has seen a marked drop in crime when the ability to CC went into effect. In sweden, where every citizen of a certain age is a reservist and every reservist maintains an assult rifle in their home, there is considerably less murders per capita than in Japan, where firearms are illegal. if you think our government will always treat us well, and that we will have no need to rebel against future oppression, you've had the wool pulled over your eyes. One by one they are taking away our rights. They need to take away our right to bear arms BEFORE the general public realizes what is happening. wake up, peoples.

Lucy, Check out http://www.jpfo.org/

maybe so Sara, but the point is, if I paid for the flag with my money and I am on my property I have a right to do so. Personally I have never incorporated burning a flag into any protest or cause I have taken part in. However, I do believe it to be a right as a free human, and I should be able to do it free from physical harm and repression from an authority. If they pass they amendment I think it will be counter productive. A friend was relating a discussion on Politically Incorrect about gun control. One of the talkin heads made an interesting point. He said, if you want to ban guns, ban all but shot guns. And here is why.. First and foremost, if you have an intruder late at night and they hear the loud click click of the shotgun, thats enough to scare most away. Secondly, because of the sheer nature of the weapons it would make it very diffcult to have incidents like the ones recently becasue the chambers only hold 2 shells. And third, the distance that a shot gun is lethal is far shorter than most rifles or machine guns..... I found it amusing......

As for jpfo, that was pretty much my argument for considering gun ownership. However, Nate, compare states where everybody is armed to countries in Europe where nobody is. (And check out the Wilson essay. Even if you don't agree with it, you'll probably at least find it entertaining.) No weapons is always better than mutual assured destruction.

Here's a neat Wilson Essay ( Two Thoughts of the Month, actually), perhaps you missed it Lucy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- October 4 , 5996 A.L. Racism designates the ignorant, bigoted, politically incorrect dogma that O.J. must be guilty because he is black. Feminism designates the enlightened, educated, politically correct dogma that O.J. must be guilty because he is male. Please note carefully the important difference between these dogmas. Please ignore the overwhelming similarity between them, or you will become ah um unfashionable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- September 30, 1996 e.v. I glanced into alt.feminazis today and found a lively debate about whether the feminist claim that "all men are potential rapists" leads to the conclusion "Jesus was a potential rapist." (It does. See Aristotle's Logic, part one. If all x are y, and j is an x, than j is y.) I think this issue arouses so much fury because people are not aware that group-hate has never become unfashionable. Only the target groups ever change. Thus, the Ku Klux Klan's dogma "All black men are potential rapists" is ignorant, awful and politically incorrect, because it targets a group now on the "unfashionable to hate" list. The feminist "all men are potential rapists" is enlightened, educated and politically correct because it targets a group now on the "fashionable to hate" list. You must always hate the right group to maintain your modernity. To become post-modern, find even more groups to hate. Only idiots like Jesus (a potential rapist) and Buddha (another of that ilk) ever proposed living without hate of any groups.....Oh, and Korzybski, who described group hatreds as neurolinguistic halucinations sympomatic of what he called unsanity. But he was another potential rapist.

i like that,he has a lively way of putting a potentially serious issue

On Wilson's stand on feminism, I will say this. Have you read his article on the Society for Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal? So, describe the typical feminist: An woman, who hates all men because she is unattractive and bitter, who runs around with garden shears looking for men to castrate. It's just as absurd as his assumption on what feminists think of white males, now isn't it? There is only one claim that I make: Straight white males are not an oppressed minority, no matter how much they whine (and there are those who don't).

On Wilson's stand on feminism, I will say this. Have you read his article on the Society for Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal? So, describe the typical feminist: An woman, who hates all men because she is unattractive and bitter, who runs around with garden shears looking for men to castrate. It's just as absurd as his assumption on what feminists think of white males, now isn't it? There is only one claim that I make: Straight white males are not an oppressed minority, no matter how much they whine (and there are those who don't).

did anyone around here say white males ARE an oppressed minority?? ......

Robert Anton Wilson has, several times. But you're just looking for a fight right now. I could say "Cogito ergo sum" and you'd argue with me.

Well, he might not. But I sure as shit would. Lucy, I cannot believe you bared that Cartesianism in a public place. Donc je suis! And, also sprach ich. Kisses.

Waffleboy's looking for a fight? Heh!

Robert Anton Wilson is a fossil, yesterday's news. And an opportunist. He used to be entertaining. All those sonofabitches: Hyatt, Alli, whatever, are on the same level as Robert Tilton. At least Tilton is still entertaining.

Robert Tilton? The preacher? As in....somebody stop me...."Robert Tilton Handjob" by Cop Shoot Cop? oooh, too late Hallelujah! Robert Tilton, hear my plea I've sent you all my money, something's wrong with me When you speak in tongues, I think I can understand Forget those big eyebrows, I need the healing hand Robert Tilton, hear my prayer I've set myself on fire, burned off all my hair I'm just a stupid fuck, but you're a man of God Robert Tilton, I NEED A HANDJOB ...complete with samples of Mr. Tilton saying things like "you need to make a $1000 vow of faith right now" and performing an exorcism. Sweet.

Well, what I think folks around here don't like is pigeonholing someone into a stereotype, and in a way, Lucy "oppressed" waffleboy. like RAW points out, hatred of any group is wrong, ok? It's just as wrong to be down on the jews as it is on the Blacks as it is on the Straights as it is...and so on. I think I've made this point before here (in one of those long -ass threads with R.C.). One reason I also pulled out those quotes was a mild protest of comparing waffleboy to Oatmeal Boy. It's like comparing Lucy to Valerie Solanis. Which no one has done yet.

Sem - why are you getting into this Lucy/Waffle thing? Can you guys all grow up, please? If you wanna start your own little "Lucy vs. Waffleboy" thread so you can bash and yell at each other, please feel free, but you're inturrupting the other freaking threads with this crap. If you can't play nicely, just ignore each other.

And stop running with those fucking scissors! Where's my valium?

Gee-- haven't you figured out that no one EVER sticks to the topic of the threads yet? "Loosen up Geebaby!" -- Jim's interpretation of John Riggins to Justice Sandry Day O'Connor

Margaret, you kill me. I was personally thinking of sending them to their rooms for a time-out. Prozac is the 90's "Mother's Little Helper." (I oughta know)

um, despite what you may think....actually I WASN"T looking for a fight at all. I am not sure how my question above indicated a fight pick....??????? I am not the aggressive type. I asked her a question regarding her statement..THATS ALL. If she is going to make ridiculous statements, I want to see her back it up. Thats all I ever ask of anyone who makes a statement of that nature. I expect the same in return. Thats all I attmepted to do in the other bitch thread, but Lucy felt the need to make it personal, she is good that way, as we saw with Antigone. I have yet to make any personal attacks as to who she is or what kind of life she leads. I DON'T CARE. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MUTHAFUCKER SONAFABITCH .. Margret, can I hit you up for one of those valium.............and a Manhatten to go If I want to start a fight, which I don't, I can do it better than that.

Sorry Gee, I don't enjoy this very much, but ya gotta speak out when you see something wrong. I think the whole thing is pretty much dead anyway. listening to Santana now -sweeeeet. Thank "bob" for CMJ.

<Tongue In Cheek Mode> Hey, Waffles! You and I _are_ an oppressed minority! See, there's only two of us, so there's less of "us" that of "them." And Lucy has been oppressing us... </Tongue In Cheek Mode> (The pseudo tags are for the humor impaired)

Lucy says: "There is only one claim that I make: Straight white males are not an oppressed minority, no matter how much they whine (and there are those who don't)." Hm. Interesting statement. So, what exactly is the difference between those straight men who whine and those that don't? Please elaborate.

I love Lucy!!

I never knew you went that way, J. =o)

Thanks, J, baby ;) Me and my band of bitter, unattractive militant Lesbian Separatists (which, of course, all feminists are, per Robert Anton Wilson) will have you converted and castrating innocent white males in no time. Can't wait for your initiation ceremony. I intend to give you my first pair of garden shears myself. As for Antigone, I stand behind my decision to flame him. There is no excuse for domestic violence and he needed to be informed of that. As for Waffleboy, perhaps I came down on him a bit hard, but I am just sick and tired of whiny white boys. Call it the straw that broke the camel's back, or blame it on Mercury being in retrograde. Perhaps I was tactless, but Oatmeal Boy II has responded by doing his damnedest to hound me off the boards. He has taken cheap shots at me on every thread in which he could possibly pretend relevance (and a few on which he couldn't). Perhaps I should have been more tactful earlier, but he was the one who wanted a fight. Fuck him and all of those who claim to be oppressed because they own new cars and new computers, work in the computer industry, have never needed or wanted to communicate with one of the two most heavily targeted minorities in their area, have coke habits and friends in the Industry, and have never experienced discrimination based on race, gender, or religion.

Jim, when did John Riggins get to meet the Supremes? He was my all time hero, right after Sonny Jurgensen.

Lucy, all I've ever said about you is that you make too many assumtions about other's viewpoints. You do this so much here that you're essentially arguing against yourself. If you don't want to listen to me on this point, listen to Swine.

So, Lucy, do you think that I advocate domestic violence? Just curious...

Lucy, you are unfucking believable!!!! "claim to be oppressed because they own new cars and new computers, work in the computer industry, have never needed or wanted to communicate with one of the two most heavily targeted minorities in their area, have coke habits and friends in the Industry, and have never experienced discrimination based on race, gender, or religion." Lucy can you quote me where i said I was oppressed?? I reponded to your false assumptions about me. I never said I was oppressed. You were wrong about the life I lead and your head still up your ass. You know if you stopped making assumptions about people you might realize they have more in common with you than you think. I am whiny? Your angry. And you angry at me for all the wrong reasons. You are angry at what you WANT to believe is the life I lead. The fact is, your impression...IS WRONG. How many times do I have to refute you. How many fucking times do I have to correct you? If you want to believe it, FINE, just don't be throwin that shit in my face. AND NO, Lucy, I DIDN'T want to fight. AGAIN, I felt myself defending all the unfounded claims about you made ME. You made it a fight by making it personal. and in reference to swine's comment linked up there.....I am slowly learning my lesson.......

Antigone, the assumption that abused women have done something to provoke their abusers is a very harmful one. You also complained about abusers having their penises made fun of, accusing me of thinking that anything was justification for belittling a man. Implicit in that statement is the tendency to treat domestic violence and violence against women in general as a minor infraction. I stand by my decision to correct you. Waffleboy, no not everyone in LA something to do with the Industry. No, $100 worth of coke is not modest usage, nor is it in the price range of everyone in LA. I started out intending to show you that perhaps your experience was not the universal experience. You have responded by saying. I'm in touch with the proliteriat!!! I am!!! Damn you for ever saying otherwhise!!! If it's that important to you, okay, Waffleboy, you're as proliterian as they come. You're living hand to mouth and deserve all our sympathy. Happy? You still don't know what it's like to experience racial discrimination (and neither do I, for that matter, but at least I'm trying to be socially responsible). As such, you STILL have no business telling someone who *has* experienced racial discrimination what he/she should be offended by. P.S. which one of us dragged this conversation here?

How am I not socially responsible? THATS what I am talking about. Instead of asking me what I do to be socially responsible (if it's really important to you), you make the assumption I am not. And in your attempt in TRYING to be socially responsilbe you are "flaming" everyone around you who "appears" to not be, in your world of perceptions, socially responsible. Are you this way to total stangers in the grocery store or at your work? If so, I SUSPECT one day you will wake up, realize you spent your whole life being angry and let life's precious time slip right out of your hands. And Lucy, just so you know, I ahppy to discuss this kind of shit, but it's kind of hard when you spend most of the time making it personal. I don't see this as draggin on if we can talk about this shit without making assumptions. But that is proving impossible as time goes on.

Your "Give it a rest" thread does not speak well of your social conscience. But did I not just drop the personal element of this? However, you are bound and determined to be personally aggrieved rather than debate the issue that you raised (i.e. whether or not it is the business of someone who has never experieced racial discrimination to tell someone else when he/she is or is not experiencing racial discrimination/insensitivity)

can you please tell me what it is about my social conciousness that doesn't sit well? I am not picking a fight, I seriously want to know hgow you draw that conclusion. Naturally, it bothers me because I a think of myself as quite aware and intouch with what is going on. I don't run around belittling the bourgeoisie nor do I align myself with the proliteriat. But my eyes are open and I am intelligent enough to not be blinded and swept by rhetoric of any kind. So i ask you......what are you basing this on? All I ever meant to say with that thread was I felt there were more important issues. Naturally that is my opinion, I still believe that.I didn't pretend to be somebody I am not, nor did speculate what those folks were feeling. But I have admitted that was a weak example.

WHITE MALES ARE OPPRESSED. we grow up being told we are the root of all evil, purely because of our RACE and GENDER. this is why suicide rates for males are on the rise. this is why white males are going out and shooting up their schools. the majority of feminists are not equity feminists. if you are not an equity feminist, than you are a CHAUVINIST. there is a pendulum swinging here, folks. we can swing it back and forth or we can stop it. EQUITY will stop it. anything else keeps it swinging. right now it has swung in the favor of women. the majority of points that feminists make to prove their oppression are falsehoods. myth. women ARE paid more attention to in public schools. evidence: there are more males in remedial classes, there are more females in honors classes. females consistantly get better grades. females hold a majority in the top % of graduating classes. women are more likely to enter college and women are more likely to graduate from college. women ARE NOT paid 59 cents to the man's dollar. this is something that was said and repeated enough to become "common wisdom" even though there is no substance to the claim. domestic violence DOES NOT cause more injury to women than car accidents, muggings and rapes combined (or any of those alone, for that matter.) a woman IS NOT beaten every 15 seconds. all sorts of information that is accepted as common knowledge is blatently false. this is part of the oppression of the male. women are currently in control. any man who says he is being oppressed will get laughed at (before what he says is thought about.) I understand men used to laugh at women who wanted to vote.

SALUTE! if only I could be as articulate..........anyone seen my Speak and Spell....ehhh fuck it.....i gots my lenses and chops to make up for it i suppose....

What about your social conscience doesn't sit well? You are bitching and moaning because African-Americans don't want to sing songs about enslaving them. That does not sit well. Who are you to decide what battles are "valid"? Are you going to answer that, or are you going to continue to claim victim points?

Lucy, where in these lyrics below does it mention slavery? It's a cultural song about a particular time in which slavery was legal, THATS what I suspect most blacks don't want to hear. That is understandable, but the song itself doesn't not even refer to slavery. What I was bitching about is how does that fare in the long run, whether some old man is still singin his Dixie. What does that amount to in the end? So I will ask you again, how does that view reflect an ill social concious? I wish I was in the land of cotton, Old times there are not forgotten; Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! In Dixie's Land where I was born in, Early on one frosty morning, Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! CHORUS:Then I wish I was in Dixie! Hooray! Hooray! In Dixie's Land I'll take my stand, to live and die in Dixie! Away! Away! Away down South in Dixie! Away! Away! Away down South in Dixie! Old Missus married "Will the Weaver"; William was a gay deceiver! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! But when he put his arm around her, Smiled as fierce as a forty-pounder! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land!--CHORUS His face was sharp as a butcher's cleaver; But that did not seem to grieve her! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! Old Missus acted the foolish part And died for a man that broke her heart! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land!--CHORUS Now here's a health to the next old missus And all the gals that want to kiss us! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! But if you want to drive away sorrow, Come and hear this song tomorrow! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land!--CHORUS There's buckwheat cakes and Injin batter, Makes you fat or a little fatter! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land! Then hoe it down and scratch your gravel, To Dixie's Land I'm bound to travel! Look away! Look away! Look away, Dixie's Land!--CHORUS

Now I have a hankering for cornbread,mustard greens,some beans and buttermilk.

yum

The fact is that it is associated with slavery and the support of slavery, just like the confederate flag. The fact is that it is not your place, having no firsthand experience of what it is to be African-American, to decide whether it is closely enough associated with slavery to be offensive. The fact is that you have no conception of what is important/ upsetting to someone experiencing something you have never experienced, and can not experience, and that it is not your job to judge the priorities of a movement which, no matter how involved you may be (and I will keep my theories to myself... if you are involved, please say so), is there to correct a wrong in which you are not the aggrieved party. I am not, in any way saying that white people have no place helping in the civil rights movement, only that it is not about white people giving minorities what rights and considerations we deem appropriate. I have a friend who confronted that attitude in the Quaker community,(She was the first African-American Friend* to become a full member of the local Yearly Meeting.) *meaning Quaker

I have never denied that the song could be offensive to some nor have I speculated on that. I didn't make it my job, to judge. I merely expressed an opinion. And as far as my involvment with "the movement" so to speak....... Well I don't actively participate in any programs or organizations. Does my social concious loose points because I don't? I still have my own revolution so to speak, my own guidelines I live by, guidelines that do not tolerate bigotry or hate in my realm, friends or family. I learned shortly after high school, after marching for NARAL and NOW in DC in 93, PETA in my hometown, belonging to Refuse and Resist, sucking up Noam Chomsky ideas, walking out in high school when the Rodney King verdict came out, boycotting the Gulf War..........I soon realized no one gave a rats ass what i did, that it made little difference who I protested, no matter how wide spread the doctrine of what I was supporting. So I put that energy to use internally. THATS what was so offensive about your flaming me. You attacked me as if I was some bigot, white boy, suburban middle class pig, coke fiend hollywood big shot with "connections". That ain't me. Do you think I would have kept buggin about that shit if I was everything you said I was? I tend to believe if everyone took care of themselves instead telling everyone else how they should act the world might move along with less friction. That is not to say, I would sit back and watch them take away freedoms and rights given to me as a human. Case in point in this scenario. If that white mutha wanted to keep sing his damn song, I would love to think that one year, after everyone has had enough, he would be singin to an empty room, that when he starts people just start filing out of the room. THAT to me speaks loud and clear with no friction involved. Similar idea with the flag burning. If I choose to burn MY flag on MY property, I should be able to do it. And if people are gonna get so god damned emotional about it enough "to kick some ass" , well they should have the maturity to walk away nad forget about it But yet, people will get their emotions involved and try to shove THEIR way of thinking down my throat, and now the gov't is involved and it is bringin far more light to the subject then it every deserved. It's all about one group trying to shove their way of thinking down our throat. If people just worried about themselves and made sure their life was in line with their morals then their wouldn't be this friction over issues like the flag burning

someone ask the 80 million american indians we killed if they like the fact that every government building runs the stars and stripes. maybe we should change that line in the national anthem from "the land of the free" to "the land that is now free of 80 million indians because we slaughtered them man, woman and child"

"I have never denied that the song could be offensive to some nor have I speculated on that." You stated that you though it was "silly" of these lawyers to be offended. "I didn't make it my job, to judge. I merely expressed an opinion." And I am saying that I disagree with your opinion, and that, while you have a right to have an opinion, you are probably going to hear about people's disagreements with it if you post that opinion on a public forum. [half a page of "waffleboy is a victim" excised.] "I tend to believe if everyone took care of themselves instead telling everyone else how they should act the world might move along with less friction." Okay, so next time I hear an anti-Semitic comment, I should let it slide in the interest of avoiding friction? I don't think so. "That is not to say, I would it back and watch them take away freedoms and rights given to me as a human." But you are going to judge how other people defend theirs. "Case in point in this scenario. If that white mutha wanted to keep sing his damn song, I would love to think that one year, after everyone has had enough, he would be singin to an empty room, that when he starts people just start filing out of the room. THAT to me speaks loud and clear with no friction involved." What you don't understand is that this was an event that was supposed to be open to all members of the American Bar Association. I think that the complainants were well within their rights not to let Rehnquist take over the event. What he was doing was making them feel uncomfortable at an event which they, presumably, otherwise would have wanted to attend. That is what equality is about, it's about not being denied access to something because of race. As for the significance, I would say that it is important for people of all races to feel welcomed at American Bar Association events. "Similar idea with the flag burning. If I choose to burn MY flag on MY property," Right there is the crux of the issue. Judge Rehnquist was not singing Dixie on HIS property. He was singing Dixie at an American Bar Association event, and the American Bar association stated that it did not endorse this behavior, NOT that it forbade it on Rehnquist's own time or property. You see the difference? [remainder excised in the interest of time]

i keep trying to get in the goddamn fray with you, Lucy, and you keep fucking ignoring me. goddamnit.

There was an article in the Washington Post today about the Mayor of D.C. seriously thinking of using a names reporting system for tracking of those with HIV. I did not like the implications at all from the following statement: "Unlike the early years of the epidemic--when gay, white men represented the largest group of infected people--most of those being infected with HIV now are minorities, drug abusers or women. And with new treatments, infection with HIV no longer inevitably means a quick death." To me the author was saying it's less urgent now because it's not just the gay men getting the disease. But that's just how I felt.

probably because you're so obviously full of shit. hell, i can smell you 2500 miles away. "white males are oppressed" give me a fucking break. i was gonna say that that's the most vaginal bullshit i've heard all year, but i didn't want to defame the term "pussy".

probably because you're so obviously full of shit. hell, i can smell you 2500 miles away. "white males are oppressed" give me a fucking break. i was gonna say that that's the most vaginal bullshit i've heard all year, but i didn't want to defame the term "pussy".

Actually, Nate, I missed your post because you posted while I was posting and I haven't had time until now to go back and check if I have missed any posts under those circumstances. I'm not ignoring you intentionally. And since I don't have much time, I'll get back to both of you after work. But, in the meantime, Swine seems to be taking care of it.

"[half a page of "waffleboy is a victim" excised.]" this is where you are being an ass Lucy. I can't mention anything about where I am coming without you making an asshole comment like this or making irrational judgements as to what type of life i lead. Did I say anything about victim here? (as a matter of fact i believe Nate did, engage him about the vicitm shit). You have proved time and time again now it's fucking impossible to hold this kind of conversation from you. I have no problems with you expressing your opinion and yes I expect peeps to disagree. Thats not my problem. My problem is with you and they way you hold a conversation, especially about something you happen to diagree with. Instead of disagreeing with me like you have in the last few posts, you had to make an ass out of yourself and take the argument to places where is doesn't have to go.................. see quote above..... So Lucy, if someone does say something anti semitic would you do? Say at the market or walking down the street. Enagage them? Assault them? How productive is that? Do you think you alone hold the capacity to change one's mind? If so, thats typical of bay area, political correctness, extreme liberal way of thinking. I have found people like that very closeminded to otherways of thinking. It's their doctrine or none at all. And I have admitted the flaws of my argument, that this situation was not the best example to make my case. I have admitted that several times. I know pass the baton to Nate.............

LOL!

click here

i feel so much better swine, may I have another sir?

click here

"probably because you're so obviously full of shit. hell, i can smell you 2500 miles away. "white males are oppressed" give me a fucking break. i was gonna say that that's the most vaginal bullshit i've heard all year, but i didn't want to defame the term "pussy"." you failed to raise a counter arguement.

you've failed to get me to actually take you seriously. you have, however, convinced me that you have no real concept of what oppression is. exactly who is oppressing you again? i missed that the first time around. and where is this dominating force that has been telling all the little white boys of america that they are the root of all evil? i seem to remember being taught the exact opposite in public school. here's something that's kinda funny: you say: "we grow up being told we are the root of all evil, purely because of our RACE and GENDER." and then you turn around and talk about the "80 million american indians WE killed " so what's up? is this some kind of internalized guilt you're experiencing that you've taken on from your forefathers' actions or something? you being oppressed by historical fact? you gonna be alright? i dunno, man. sounds like you're using the definition of oppression that reads "a sense of being weighed down in body or mind" rather than the one that reads "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power." i can mail you some kleenex or something... anything to prevent you from snapping under the enormous strain of white male existence and send you screaming johnny AK up the fire tower. after all, i'm just here to help.

though i will probably regret getting into this one......I supect there is to some degree a lash back.....we are told all our lives we have all the power, privaledges and that we have it easy.....yet to my knowledge my race or sex has not brought me greater wealth or power. We have been forced into submission by rhetoric AND fact. I am not sure as to the magnitude, but I do believe ther is some validity in what he is saying, serious or not........

well? http://cnn.com/US/9908/16/race.poll.ap/

back lash

lack ass.

swine, that's my point. white people did this, white people did this. all our lives we hear about the evil things white people did. men too. men are rapists. men are wife beaters. men are child abusers. but it is the steps people take that oppresses white people. affirmative action, for example. choices made not because of merit, but because of the color of the skin or the lack of a penis. i deal with it here. our hiring procedures say that we hire in such a way to promote diversity in the work place. diversity of what? experience? skills? no... colors. accents. shit that doesn't matter. shouldn't matter. i think this is oppression -- punishing someone for no reason other than the fact that they are white. or male. i don't think white males have it worst, though. i think black males, especially young black males, do. everyone knows young black men are thugs and gangsters, out to get our little white girls. that's what the media tells us, anyway (at least, until the white kids picked up the pace in knocking off their school mates.) coincidentally, young black males as a group have the highest rate of increase in suicides of any group in the US. young white males are a near second. why? >oppression that reads "a sense of being weighed >down in body or mind" rather than the one that >reads "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or >power." how much of the latter exists in the US today? are any groups oppressed by that definition? aside from laws like affirmative action.

white males control everything in our society. they are not being oppressed by anyone. the point is that they *can* be in remedial classes and they *can* get worse grades. but in the end it doesn't matter. they don't need to work as hard or try as hard as everyone else because they still end up as adults controlling everything and owning everything anyway. i could say "white males make 50% more than white females" or i could say "white males are big doodie heads". either way, white males still have the power. all of the feminist propoganda (whether it is true or false), in the end, does very little to change this fact. i have little hope that this will ever change. i have little hope for equity. actually, nate, i was going to ask you to please refer to the source of the facts you stated, such as women don't make 59 cents on the dollar to men and that women don't get abused every 15 seconds. where did you learn of this? i'd like to know so i can get my facts straight. this is particularly sensitive to me today because i'm being fucked over in a business venture by priveledged white males who already have more money than i will ever see in my life. they go to harvard law school for shits and giggles, because they have nothing else to do. meanwhile i've been working my ass off to make this venture go forward and i am in the lowest tax bracket. as soon as i gave it momentum, it was pulled out from under me - secretively. like a goddamned corporate spie story. it's fucked fucked fucked. it didn't want to go into business with a male. but couldn't get anyone to take me seriously until i did. i'm not looking to be more powerful than anyone, i'm just asking to be treated fairly, to be treated with the same amount as respect, to be taken as seriously as my male colleague. fucked, i say. it's so wrong and so frustrating and defeating. i only wish i could say that this was the first time it has happened to me, but it's just one of many cases. taking my car to the mechanic sucks. being sized up and wondering how much money they can take me for. driving my car home in disrepair. getting help at the city mill sucks. what would i want to do with tools anyway, right? dealing with the webserver's tech guy. what would i know about computers or perl scripts anyway? and don't ask me to make copies for you. i'm NOT the secretary here, i'm a fucking researcher. ok, i feel better now.

Nate: Affirmative Action is an absolutely necessary correction. In Northern California, hiring practices are somewhat more equitable in its hiring practices than the rest of the country and I still notice a far, far higher proportion of white males in the upper echelons of companies than in the general population. At the company where I worked in Baltimore it was said that my predecessor might have been ... you know... Jewish. ("Jewish" being said in a whisper) My father was lost a job in Baltimore because he is physically disabled. I myself was asked to hide the pentacle that I wear because "people in the office think it's the sign of the devil" I had two gay co-workers my entire time there, one of whom was hounded out of the office. I was the only person in the company that they were out to. For every qualified white male that loses an opportunity to Affirmative Action, there are thousands of women, disabled people, and minority members who are denied a job because they are not white males. And if hiring practices and opportunities were really equitable, there would be no need to stretch to meet quotas, because the workforce would already represent the population. Affirmative Action will remain necessary until it is moot. As for hearing that white males hold all the power, may I remind you that we have had one president who was not a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant male...he was a White Anglo-Saxon Catholic male, and they killed him. Another thing about that... You're oppressed because people think you run everything..?? Try getting massacred for it every couple generations or so. Oh, and Nate, women don't make 0.59 on the dollar anymore, you're right about that. Thirty years of feminism has raised it to 0.79 I'll be back with more on your complaint about men being unfairly classified as wifebeaters in a bit.

http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html This has all the statistics you need on domestic violence, properly sourced. They speak for themselves. As for the rest of it, white males have historically trampled on the rights of just about everyone in the world, including white males who speak other languages, follow other sects of Christianity, or cross themselves twice with three fingers, instead of three times with two fingers. It's not the fault of women or minorities. We didn't make it up.

funny thing about that argument. it seems that every white kid i hear who uses it tries to come off like the oppression of minorities is a thing of ancient history and that we should just get over the inequities propagated by a white power structure. the civil rights bill was signed in 1964. 35 years ago. i'll be 35 in seven years. how much progress do you expect in 35 years? do you think that the damage that has been done for hundreds of years can be undone within 35 years? earlier on you talk about the "pendulum" and that all we need to do is stop the ebb and flow by legislative equity. i don't think the real world works like that. affirmative action exists as a direct result of a legacy of inequity. it also exists because of the social reality that people tend to hire and advance others who are just like them. THAT has been going on for hundreds of years. it's called preferential treatment. throw it in the other direction and you get masses of outraged white men crying out "oppression! oppression!". personally, i think affirmative action is an imperfect policy that should've been used to initially level out the playing field and then totally redirected into insuring equal education facilities. the problem with the public school systems is that the quality of education they provide is directly related to the wealth of the community they support. increase the quality of education and you cut the problem at its root. anyway, i don't think i can even respond to your cries of white male oppression without bitter sarcasm. call me prejudiced, bigoted, or whatever, but it always sounds to me like "i want my privilege back."

White males in America need to be oppressed for a few decades, and it looks like that'll happen eventally. Yes, the pendulum of oppression is slowly swinging back and will come back to thwack the upper classes but good. Actually, I think it's just in the processess of slowing down now. It'll start swinging back when whites become a minority in America around 2050, or so. Hopefully it won't take that long, though. The longer the white male American power base has to stare the frieght train in the face, the more likely they'll be to get desperate, frustrated, and generally rash. Also, technology exists now that makes suppression of entire populations much easier. If the balance of power doesn't hapen soon, say a generation or so, it might not happen at all.

it just crossed my mind that as a client manager, the two people i hired for my help desk and the person i promoted to the lead position all happened to be white males. after i quit, the person who replaced me was a white male as well.

yea but did you hire them because they were the most qualified or because they were white? i'm against affirmative action because i believe it descriminates more than it helps. if a company is forced to hire a certain number of non-whites a year, are they hiring simply to be PC or are they hiring because the people are qualified to do the job the best? i know it sounds cold, and maybe living in the south has hardened me against pcism, but i hate to think that i could miss out on a job i am the most qualified to do because i'm white. then, in the same instance, i'd hate to think someone wouldn't get hired simply because they aren't white. oh hell i don't know.

Does anyone not get the point I was making? To me the statement in that article, was saying referring to gay white males, not white males as a whole. Swine- I clearly no what it's like to feel oppressed. I'm not out of the closet, so I can't say I'm personally oppressed, or that I would definately feel that way. I "feel" oppressed because of all the negativism given to being gay. I shouldn't care what people think, fuck em, but I'm not in the stage of my life where I want to have to say that. I don't know if anything I'm saying makes sense. My only point in the references selection from that article was, that now that it's not JUST gay men getting the disease, there seems to be a greater urgency to find a cure. Oh, fuck. I don't know. In 100 years will there still be all this racial/sexual tension?

"a class-based affirmative action [is favorable] in principle. yet in the heat of battle in american politics, a redistributive measure in principle with no power and pressure behing it means no redistributive measure at all. the prevailing discriminatory practices during the 60's, whose targets were working people, women, and people of color, were atrocious. Thus, an enforceable race-based- and later gender-based- affirmative action policy was the best possible compromise and concession. Progressives should view affirmative action as neither a major solution to poverty nor a sufficient means to equality. we should see it as playing a primarily negative role- namely, to ensure that discriminatory practices against women and people of color are abated. given the history of this country, it is a virtual certainty that without affirmative action, racial and sexual discrimination would return with a vengeance... ...if there were social democratic redistributive measures that wiped out poverty, and if racial and sexual discrimination could be abated through the good will of and meritorious judgments of those in power, affirmative action would be unneccessary. ...an attack on affirmative action is an attack on redistributive efforts unless there is a real possibility of enacting and enforcing a more wide-reaching class-based affirmative action policy." -Dr. Cornel West

I have been following the stuff about hate crimes. This is an article about how hate groups are protcted under the first amendment (btw, they're using the bastards as an excuse to advocate another attack on free speech, and comparing the investigation of them to the investigation of Dr. King) http://www.msnbc.com/news/301307.asp Meanwhile, COINTELPRO goes unremarked in the mainstream media, and the organizations it attacked were precisely the type that the U.S. Constitution was intended to protect, as opposed to hate groups (which are also entitled to free speech, but who will, in any sane society, be shouted down). Equal protection. Sure. <rant mode> I personally think that it could be solved thusly: If a leader of a hate group encourages his/her followers to kill members of your ethnicity, it counts as a death threat and you can have a concealed carry permit. That oughta stop the fuckers. Threaten a minority, and arm it. We're shooting back this time, assholes. </rant mode>

Sara Sez.... "white males control everything in our society. they are not being oppressed by anyone. the point is that they *can* be in remedial classes and they *can* get worse grades. but in the end it doesn't matter. they don't need to work as hard or try as hard as everyone else because they still end up as adults controlling everything and owning everything anyway." Sarah as much as I enjoy your mild tempered and easy going posts, this is a load of shit. YES, it is fact we have had a legacy of white anglo presidents, many many many white men control corporations and run various other significant institutions in this country. HOWEVER, to make this blanket statement NOW is irrelavent. Last I checked all of my white male friends and family are busting their balls like anyone else. They weren't offered anything special because of who they are. Like I have said, if I was given privaledge, please inform me so I can manipulate it to take over the world. I think we are in cultural transition in this country, I just don't think a statemetn like that is completely true and I think it's retroactive to be locked into that way of thinking. I do believe racism is a lot more subtle now. It's hard to pin point. As much as affirmative action SUCKS, i do believe it is necessary in certain instances. It's a necessary evil. Sarah, I understand your frustration with your business dealings, but let me ask you.....are your frustrations coming from the fact that they are male and white or they are (presumably) successful business men. My wife works for Japanese company. Talk about glass ceilings and sexism in the work place. I have been on the verge of going AK-47 Sally on that office many times. However the Japanese are slow to change. The old men are dying off, they are the one's still in control. Things will change but slowly. The fact that she is female AND American is tough enough. Culture cannot change overnight for the Japanese, muchless America. Despite the fact that her division is the only one making profit, she travels worldwide, works overtime and MAKES SHIT HAPPEN for them, they still only pay her a little more than a good qualified receptionist. She has been with this co. for five years, they have relocated us and they have at times show thier loyalty to her. But it takes time and patience. If someone as aggressive as Lucy came at them screaming sexism, bitgots etc etc, they would completely laugh and kick her ass out. My wife has learned to play their game and is slowly beating them at it from the inside out. She holds all the cards in her business dealings and all the limp dick muthas want their hands in the pot. She is putting together $100k deals and they can do nothing but sit back and watch her. She is gaining collateral. As much as she wanted to go in and call them on their bullshit, she realized after reading and working with the Japanese for 5 years now that it would accomplish nothing. It's not good to be viewed as a squeeky wheel. Anyway.........back on track, I know it's frustrating, but at them same time are these guys walking all over you because you are female or because they may see you as a vulnerable business move. The business world is full of unloyal sharks and they don't seem to care what color or sex you are. If they can profit they will. And Jim, I sort a understood the point you were making. I would be open to more of it, I am just not 100% on the point you are making oh and viewing Lucy's link, I found these statistics to be of interest about gun control..... http://www.abanet.org/gunviol/uscompar.html

Right on Lucy!!!! I,m sick of all this shit,I,m sick of being afraid to even drive around town cause some asshole might shoot me.I just want to` go somewhere far away from here,somewhere I can have some serenity,and it,s not happening here,or anywhere ,anymore.

Great Lucy, a race war, thats a real solution. Don't you understand that they types of racist folks the FBI is looking to stop are HAPPY to fight back, they want that, its in their propaganda...."to cleanse the mud people from the earth"... and most likely they will kill a lot of people that didn't have to die. Oh so my friend Jose Lupez who has been a part of a blanket target should now go and get a gun (as if minorities have money to buy guns, according to you they can't even afford to lease a computer or buy $100 worth of coke in 6 months....but that was just me right?). Great thats all we need are more uneducated inexperienced idiots with guns..... They have camps and training and target practice, for these racist groups many of them were in the military, a lot of skin heads are or were. They is no clear cut answer to this shit. We can start by taking all guns off the street and making it illegal for people to buy them at K-mart and other places like that. Guns have become to much of a health problem no matter what side of the fence you are on

thanks for reminding me what a complete and total waste of time and energy this is. i'm off to the gym.

J, honey, please don't be so swept dear....I know the phallacy and power of a gun may be exciting for you but I fear you armed more than I do some hate group

There are stats for every arguement. These were the leading causes of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States in 1996: Number Per Cent Motor Vehicle Accidents 1,504,119 21.2% Accidental Falls 1,243,538 17.5% Other and unspecified environmental and accidental causes 1,162,272 16.4% Accidents caused by cutting and piercing instruments or objects 515,986 7.3% Sports injuries 483,223 6.8% Injuries purposefully inflicted by other than spouse or intimate 399,240 5.6% Overexertion and strenuous movements 339,014 4.8% Drugs, medicinal and biological substances, in therapeutic use 166,687 2.3% Injuries purposefully inflicted by spouse or other intimate 153,555 2.2% Injuries caused by animals 137,639 1.9% Accidental poisoning by drugs 131,928 1.9% Misadventures during surgical and medical care 124,230 1.7% Suicide and self-inflicted injuries 102,392 1.4% Struck accidentally by falling object 87,485 1.2% Caught accidentally in or between objects 74,995 1.1% Foreign body accidentally entering orifice other than eye 69,590 1.0% Accidental poisoning by other solid and liquid substances, gases, and vapors 57,846 0.8% Non-transport machinery accidents 56,455 0.8% Venomous animals and plants 50,111 0.7% Accident caused by hot substance or object 49,766 0.7% Foreign body accidentally entering eye and adnexa 47,788 0.7% Other 147,889 2.0% This data is taken from the 1996 National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey Data File, which can be downloaded via ftp from the National Center for Health Statistics (ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Health_Statistics/NCHS/Datasets/NHAMCS/). Domestic violence, referred to in the table as "Injury purposefully inflicted by spouse or other intimate", accounts for 2.2% of injuries to women in this age group. Rather than being a larger cause of injury than "car accidents and other things combined", domestic violence causes only one-tenth as many injuries as motor vehicle accidents alone. And as any thoughtful person might expect, as a source of injuries domestic violence is well behind such everyday occurences as accidental falls and cuts. Domestic violence is a problem. It is not, however, the leading cause of injury to women. It is not even remotely close to it. In the long run we will all be better off if discussion of this subject has some relationship to the real world.

holy shit you guys are all going nutty. the only way someone is a victim is if they view themselves as a victim. you create your own reality. i believe this wholeheartedly. if you sit and whine about being woman, being black, being hispanic, being white, then yes, you're going to be upset. you're going to hold a grudge against everything that happens to you. when you're in a state of self pity, it's pretty hard do bring yourself back up. i went to an all woman's college because i wanted a taste of feminism. what i found was a bunch of whiny snot nosed father-dependent cunts. feminism is an excuse those who don't really want to change, but they just want to whine about it. if you don't like your situation, change it. when you blame an outside force for your situation, you take away from your own personal power. waffles, as far as racism being subtle? no. it's not. at least not where i live. i grew up in a middle class white town. i had friends that weren't caucasian. i never really noticed it a whole bunch. then i moved down south. down here, races ARE seperate. the word "nigger" (i despise this word more than anything) is used day to day. no one winces a whole lot when it is said. i wait tables. i hate to admit it, but most of the time i avoid waiting on black tables. nine times out of ten you get no tip and the times you do it's not even ten percent. it's not that i'm racist. i struggled with this for awhile...believing myself to have picked up on the incredible racism around me. however, it's just how it is. everyone seperates themselves from one another down here dependent on race. it's sad. it shouldn't be this way. i wish i had the ability to change it. but at the same time, i have to make my living, and if i spend an hour waiting on a table that won't tip me versus a table that will...well you tell me what's rational. another thing that bothers me about living in the south is the number of confederate flags dancing on the back of truck windows. i wish people could let the past go. sometimes it's harder than we think.

Thanks, Waffles. I'm gonna think about how to re-word my thoughts. Tune in tomorrow.

Kalliope, what I was referring to, racism in the workplace and in general middle America. In the 60's Boss Hogg could get away with saying he ain't hiring Billy b/c he is black, now days it's subsurface. Many who "say" they aren't racist in fact are. The older genration of my family, my aunts and uncles are. I grew up in th south and I understand the racism you are referring to but I am unsure who those types of attitudes and comments are prevalent in middle america.....like I might have said it before, I have been in your region of the country, I have great story about how some friends and I brokedown in Farmville, VA where they grow them "left handed cigarettes" and where the folks there defy or create new typecasts......

BINGO!!! <<personally, i think affirmative action is an imperfect policy that should've been used to initially level out the playing field and then totally redirected into insuring equal education facilities. the problem with the public school systems is that the quality of education they provide is directly related to the wealth of the community they support. increase the quality of education and you cut the problem at its root.>> Well said! That includes rural white areas too. I live in a severly economically depressed, white, area. If we could get the level of education up, it would be a godsend. Hell, we can't even get a new Junior High built that has been condemned for 15 years. Our fabulous state legislature says that the state constitution in regards to health and safety in the realm of education doesn't include buildings that are falling apart. Local taxpayers will not pass a levy. Our kids have no computers, half the building is inaccessable. One of my kids will be in this fine establishment next year.

In LA,they passed a move to build the nations most expensive school in downtown. It was a great idea, but flawed and anybody who opposed it was deemed a racist because of the constituents it would serve. The fact of the matter is, the race-baiting, fucked up school board pushed it through without doing proper research (they were thinking of reelections and the glory or being responsible for the wonderful school). Even though they had documentation saying the land was unfit to build on, they are now halfway through with it and have now taken the haze off their eyes to realize there is too much methane left over from oil fields to make it safe. It now is at a standstill and billions of dollars will be lost on this pipe dream of a school. The fucked up thing is the school board used race to get it pushed through when it had nothing to do with race but rather common sense and the best place to put it. If they had selected land a few hundred yards away, things would be ok......but the local politics of LA loves to race bait and pander to the uninformed public

Ahem, the fact that the safety of the school was not considered was not a racial issue? I know that the lack of concern for the level of pollution in the East Bay (the asthma rates in Oakland are incredible) has a hell of a lot to do with race. And, Nate, how much domestic violence is reported as falls and misc. accidents? There's also the fact that a woman who gets into a car accident is probably not going to continue to get into increasingly severe car accidents until her car beats her to death. Besides the fact that I fail to see the relevance of comparing domestic violence to car accidents, it's like saying "Sure, low meat safety standards are bad, but they don't kill nearly as many people as earthquakes." (Stop plate tectonics, damnit!) What the fuck? And, as for men being "blamed" for domestic violence, it might have something to do with their being responsible for 95% of it. And why are you insisting that domestic violence is not a major problem? Nobody but you is raising this issue on this discussion. Waffleboy, of course you are more afraid of a gun in the hand of an inexperienced person than in the hand of an experienced person who doesn't want to kill white males. Those of us who are not white males feel differently.

Lucy, you didn't seem to understand my point so let me try again.........the safety of the proposed school was ignored by the minority led school board who were pandering to minorities and pushing for it's approval. The minority-led school board pushed it through to gain their glory and reelection and called anyone who opposed it a racists. The state and EPA had not even cleared it fit to build on but they were dmaned determined. No one opposed the school, just the land where it was being built. They could have built it elsewhere and still serve the same neighborhood. http://www.newtimesla.com/cgi-bin/bglimpse/ browse through these handful of articles from the LA New Times to get a grip on the situation here.

also let me rephrase Lucy, I am afraid of anyone with a gun, including cops, but more so of an armed uneducated public

Lucy do you also believe AIDS was created by white male fundamentalists in order to rid the world homosexuals as well?

And I think gun control is a good idea. So is an enlightened democratic socialism. Guess what? "J, honey, please don't be so swept dear....I know bthe phallacy and power of a gun may be exciting for you" Now, don't even get me started on your assumption that J is totally untrained in firearms, has no aptitude for them, and doesn't have the sense to get training, and shouldn't worry her pretty little head about her well-being when she has some asshole stalking her. Your tone is offensively patronizing. J-I'm learning how to shoot as soon as I get my replacement ID, and I would advise you to do the same, and you can probably get a concealed carry permit because of Littlewinkie. "but I fear you armed more than I do some hate group" I do not fear a responsible armed citizen who does not wish me ill as much as an armed redneck whose goal in life is to wipe out my race. However, the fact that you do not fear hate groups might have something to do with the fact that they don't threaten you. However, I will leave you with this thought: First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. And then they came for me, and by that time, there was no one left to speak up for me. - Pastor Martin Niemoller

ooooh oooooh oooooh. Ok. Lucy, It's not about being angry at men. You're searching for blame where there is no positive result. Yes, you're right. In 95% of domestic violence cases, the man is responsible. However, saying such things as "we're shooting back this time assholes" shows an incredible immaturity and lack of forward movement. Fighting back will not end domestic violence---it never has. I'm proof of this. I fought back and ended up in the hospital for a week with a concusion and bruises the length of my throat. Fighting back will simply create more issues and continue this horrible battle. Men and women are both strong. It won't end til we both learn that YES, we are different. However, we are capable of acomplishing whatever it is we wish to acomplish regardless of sex. You can talk of glass ceilings, patriarchal companies, sexism, descrimination. Blame all those things. If you are determined to get somewhere, you'll find a way to do it. If you don't, your blame is only an excuse in the first place. Do not seperate yourself by your sex, but by who you are, as an individual. Blaming white men for your place in life simply keeps them dominant and you submissive. I like to look at it like this: The world is made up of balancing energies. Male and Female are two of the constants. We balance eachother. We cannot go through life with just one of these energies in our lives. Think about it. We, as women, need men. Men, need women. This doesn't exclude lesbians and gays. Do you know anyone who has been able to get through this life without a member of the opposite sex in some aspect? We balance eachother. Fighting and blaming and trying to figure out who is dominant doesn't solve anything. It's a matter of saying "hey, i need you, you need me, let's work at this together". i completely lost my entire train of thought here. fuck. this is some complicated shit isn't it?

Amen

Lucy, that quote ia very nice, something I agree with, hence my position on flag burning, but guns are deadly weapons, there is no freedom of expression in pulling a trigger. And because I am not singled out by a particular hate group doesn't mean i don't fear them or anybody else armed. and my comment to J was light hearted, I have no clue if she has any training or not, I don't really care. so lighten up. And ask J if she was offended by my comment before you start talking about how offensive it is. I am not for gun control, I am for the prohibition of guns period. Legislative measures only create loop holes.

if you're gonna own a gun...at least make sure it's a big one. i think we should replace all guns with chinese knuckles. that'd be "fab". :)

The only reason that I don,t want a gun is cause I,m afraid my husband might kill me or the other way around,After he found out about Tom,2 days later we get a gun catalog in the mail,I threw it away before he could see it.But I still say we have the right to.

"In 95% of domestic violence cases, the man is responsible. " this statement is pure bullshit, simply because police departments consistantly report that in over 50% of all domestic violence calls the victim is the man.

Kalliope: A. the "this time we're shooting back" comment was about hate crimes. B. I was battered for 8 months by a man I could easily have beaten in a fair fight. If you can fight back yourself, beat the fucker to death, if not, call the cops. Waffleboy: Firstly, I am for the abolition of all guns, but I know it's not going to happen. The fact that you do not recognize the threat of hate groups is reflected by your up-front statement that you find an untrained woman with a gun more frightening than a bigot with a gun. Are you going to claim that you would, were you not a white male, find arming someone inexperienced more of a threat than someone who built his life around wanting to kill you?

i most definitely recognize the threat by hate groups as I said in a previous post : "Don't you understand that they types of racist folks the FBI is looking to stop are HAPPY to fight back, they want that, its in their propaganda...."to cleanse the mud people from the earth"...and most likely they will kill a lot of people that didn't have to die. Oh so my friend Jose Lupez who has been a part of a blanket target should now go and get a gun (as if minorities have money to buy guns, according to you they can't even afford to lease a computer or buy $100 worth of coke in 6 months....but that was just me right?). Great thats all we need are more uneducated inexperienced idiots with guns..... They have camps and training and target practice, for these racist groups many of them were in the military, a lot of skin heads are or were. " i just think your solution as to arm the targets of these hate groups is fucking absurd and counter productive. And yes the abolotion of guns all together is impossible, but the proliferation of gun violence can be greatly reduced if your average Joe doesn't have access to it at K-mart or a catalog. Read J's post and you'll see what I mean. I don't have access to an F-16, or tank so why should the public have access to assault rifles, shotguns and 9mm's?

We are many. They are few. I can see what you're saying about gun ownership making us targets. What you don't understand, and I don't think you ever will, is that I am *already* a target. And the Jews are not nearly as heavily targeted in this country as other minorities. People determined to hate and kill will hate and kill no matter what you do. And I am a target. The only choice before me is whether I am going to be an easy target.

regardless of what is reported and what is...the number of domestic violence cases and the person doing the beating versus the person being beat..it's typically the man doing the beating. men are taught and have been taught since birth that they are the stronger of the sexes. similarly, women are taught to be the weaker sex. i mean c'mon. it's all bad and tragic when a man cries, but when a woman cries no one pays too much heed. we do it all the time right? dont get all offended. as i was trying to say before i went off on my tangent..this doesnt reflect on all men. there are bundles of good guys out there. there's bundles of assholes too. same with chicks. if someone calls a woman a bitch im not gonna get all offended by it. stop looking at the whole and look at the individual. that's all i'm saying. chill.

they way I see it Lucy, if you are a target so am I. Anyone targeted by a hate group effects me. That shit is not to be tolerated, no matter who it is. People can believe anything they want to but it's the fact that they can carry out their Hitler fantasies by going down to K-mart and stocking up that bothers me. You are an easy target to anyone if they want to get you. Being an armed target does not make you a less easy target. It only increases the chance that SOMEONE will die, be it you or them. There is a better way, I am just not sure what exactly it is. I think this country needs to make it's tolerances known LOUDLY. Mass protests of hate groups, find out where these leaders live, put them under considerable public scrutiny. If we can keep them under the spotlight, it will be much more difficult for them to get away with anything. Believe me I have the target fear as well. I work for The Advocate magazine, the oldest gay/lesbian political mag in the US. If Fred Phelps or one of his croonies wanted to cause harm in his sick way of protest it wouldn't be too hard to do. You should see some of the faxed press releases we get from that shit. Hell the religious right will hold nothing back to bomb an abortion clinic. I am not sure the hate crimes bill going through congress will do anything. It's merely a band aid for the public, and what does that say about the current murder laws on file. That annonymous homicide as to opposed racial driven homocide is less important? Murder is murder, whether it is for racial reasons or not. What is most scary of these hate groups is the lack of remorse. This Buford fuck here in LA walked into the police station last week smiling as the crowd called him a coward and many other things I am sure. He obviously is a mental patient. What do we as a society do with people like this? How do we stop it?

Waffleboy, I am FOR gun control. I am against guns. I think guns are bad. I think that no guns is good. However, until there are no guns, I would rather that I have guns and the people trying to kill me have guns than I have no guns and the people trying to kill me have guns.

Putney Swope (directed By Robert Downey SR.) is out on video now. buy it buy it buy it. "Putney says the Borhman Six girl is got to have soul!" She's got to have soul!

then on that note, Lucy, you ARE part of the problem

Friend Good

"I have no guns and the people trying to kill me have guns." you do realize that gun control means that only the bad people have guns. we already have drug control, and god knows you can't find drugs anywhere.

I can't believe you two. You can't even agree on things you agree on. Yeesh. Why don't you gang up on Nate and Simon and have a good ol' time? By tackling them on gun control, you'll probably get my goat too as a bonus.

Of course, Nate. All dissidents are bad people. In all seriousness, I have already said that I think that *effective* gun control is a good idea, but that I think that effective gun control will not happen in this country. Even if they got the laws passed, which I doubt. I intend to learn how to shoot as soon as I get my replacement ID (which, inexplicably, takes 2 months in the most computerized region in the country and a few hours in any other state in the Union) I am seriously considering buying a gun, which I will relenquish when the fucking neo-nazis don't have guns either.

Lucy, if you were really against guns, you wouldn't be considering getting one. If you were really against violence, you wouldn't consider violence as an option. "I am seriously considering buying a gun, which I will relenquish when the fucking neo-nazis don't have guns either." Sounds pretty close to "they can pry my gun from my cold dead fingers" to me...

I was raised a strict pacifist, but I have learned that pacifism is a luxury. I am currently deciding whether or not I can afford it in the current social situation. I wish there were no guns. There are still guns. And most of them are aimed at me, or at other people who have done nothing to deserve violence. I am not advocating going into the headquarters of hate groups and opening fire (although I believe such an action would be, if not justifiable, at least understandable) What I am advocating is the right to be ready to stop someone who is trying to gun down schoolchildren. What I am saying is that I'd rather see one neo-nazi dead than a bunch of kids, or innocent old men. And it may sound trite, but I have been reminded time and again these past few weeks that the first thing Hitler did was take our guns. What I am saying is, I hope that the next time some redneck wants to beat someone to death, he'll get a bullet in self-defense instead of another innocent murdered and I, for one, will shed no tears for one less violent bigot. And the government isn't doing shit. For fuck's sake, they're so far into corporate pockets that they can't even pass a damn gun-control bill after how many people have just opened fire on crowds? All I've heard from them is some lip-service legislation and a shitload of posturing and hand-wringing. And I'm supposed to just sit by and wait for them to do something? They're not even pretending to care what the people want anymore. I think that we need to learn that we cannot count on the protection of a government that is willing and able to quietly infiltrate and disband the Left, but which publicly wrings its hands over the rights of right-wing hate groups. I would be more willing to trust a government that had not shown itself quite able to neutralize dissidents that do not serve its interests. Or, perhaps, like Waffleboy, the white males in power (and I am not saying that all white males hold power, but only that the upper echelons of the U.S. government consist almost exclusively of white males) don't really understand why this is a priority for me.

The desperate always sow the first seeds of revolution. Revolution always leads to oppression. "The Germans kill the Jews, the Jews kill the Arabs, the Arabs kill the hostages and that is the news..." - Roger Waters

"it is bettter to kill than to be killed" -swine

Really? Hypothetical, completely contrived situation: A ten year old child is hallucinating, completely unaware of their actions, and they have a gun. They think that you're someone they hate with a passion and intend to kill you. The only way to stop them is to kill them yourself. Do you do it? Anyway, after reading your last post again, Lucy, I'm struck by how much it sounds like the logic of the pro-life movement. Especially this ditty: "I am not advocating going into the headquarters of hate groups and opening fire (although I believe such an action would be, if not justifiable, at least understandable)." Like, Operation Rescue doesn't _advocate_ violence, but if someone decides to firebomb a clinic, it's perfectly _understandable_

It's better to kill than to be killed, eh? The connotations of that statement are interesting. If it's true, then it's always better to be a killer. The person who does the killing is always in the right, since it's "better" not to be killed. Using that logic, the racists of America should start gunning down their enemies as soon as possible. Or their enemies should shoot first... Happy RaHoWa, everybody!

Happiness.... (Bang bang shoot shoot...) Happiness... Mother superior jumped the gun mother superior jumped the gun mother superior jumped the gun mother superior jumped the gun

just wanted to stop by and say "hello" from planet earth. how's the weather out there?

fuck all this. there is no answer. no solution. it's fucking hopeless. you're all dead meat and the world just doesn't care. i swear i hate all you whiny, self-centered, pathetic mouth-breathers who can't seem to accept that there has to be a top and a bottom. there's no room for all tops. it doesn't work. you can either start killing until there's no one in your way or you can just smoke a bowl and disconnect. i recommend the latter. you want revolution? fucking ignoble hypocrites, what you want is revenge.

hi mom

or you could multi-task and smoke the bowl, disconnect, and kill all at the same time. murder's only foreplay when your hot for revenge.

guns are bad but gun racks, well those are just the cream. everyone should have one. this is the nineties people. if you don't have a gun rack...you aren't cool.

Friendly, you don't sound very friendly today. :-(

I think I could kill someone if they were going to kill me or mine,I think that would be self-defence,not revenge.For some reason this thread reminds me of how we lost R.C. and it makes me sad.There was alot I wanted to say,but I was too ashamed.My aunt Dare humiliated me and two black friends in public,made me get in her car when she saw me on the street shooting the shit with them.My bestfriend my freshman year of highschool was black,I couldn,t have her over to my house,and I couldn,t go to hers(but I did),it was bullshit like this that got me in trouble.That time I walked out of Shoeneys,this white trash cook called me a nigger-lover,cause I was tight with a black cook who was a very butch looking gay man.The white trash cook had to work in the basement after that with his ugly wife making salad and shit.My dad saw a lynching when he was little,he was horrified and said all the man did was LOOK at a white woman he knew it was wrong,but I still couldn,t have Pam Brown in my house.There are a lot of stupid hatefull people out there,what are we supposed to do,just be sitting ducks?

my golfing umbrella sits nicely upon mine........ next to my twelve gauge of course................. git along!!!!!!! it's the wild west and Lucy is Annie Oakly

i'd luv to have Pam Grier in my house...........

i use mine to hang my cat. it's very handy.

"home is where you hang your head" went hunting with a 4-10 once. got disgusted and threw it dowwn. luckily no one was hurt when it went off. catch a grip and stop griping plese.

I had a Annie Oakly get up when I was little,a vest and skirt with fringe,I was BADDDD I used to want to be a cowgirl,but I don,t get along with horses,they give you blisters on your ass,and they aren,t stable.

when i was a kid i got on this pony named molly who immediately began running under all the apple trees and through the small barn at full gallop. when i was finally able to get off, i was all scraped up from branches and chicken wire. i picked up a rock and nailed her square in the ass. i thought about killing that goddam pony.

i got hit in the hand with a crabapple once and it bruised my thumb so hard the nail fell off. i still have that bump in my nail. oh. and i hate crabapples.

I thought about my previous statement, and decided I don't care what any of you think. My beliefs are my beliefs. If you agree, GREAT. If not, fuck it. No hair off my back. I'll just stick to sex talk from now on. Who wants to fuck?

thats the spirit Jim.......

how much hair you got on your back, jimbo? everytime i hear pony i think it's his lung.

What're you getting so upset about, Jim? Just because the whole world doesn't agree with you (which is not to say you're Wrong) doesn't mean you should stop expressing your opinion. You're really limiting yourself if you just stick to sextalk, Jim.

jesus christ, gee... why don't you just spit in his face and call him faggot?

Gee-- Apparently the fine art of sarcasm is lost on some people. Nate-- You're a riot man. I have hair on my back, but not ruglike. Did someone say Spirit? I'll take a CiderJack please.

ciderjack? is that cider mixed with Jack D??....for the love of humanity i hope not?

it's a brand of cider. you can only mix jack with coke.

some fascists like to mix it with sour....but that shit just ain't right

Hitler had effective gun control. So did Stalin. Beware Internet Censorship!!

They both also had cute little mustaches, too...

The moral of the story: "When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me." I have an idea, why don't we talk about what we like about each other insterad, instead of beating each other's faces with our personal ethics? i like Lucy and I don't give a rat's ass about her politics or her sexuality, we probably have a lot in common i like swine, and I could twist my left nipple over the color of his skin or where he went to school, and i want that tape o' funk i like waffleboy and i ain't gonna sweat my balls over what he puts in his nose or where he fits on the socio-economic pyramid, and he's a good photographer i like jim aka pajamaboy and could rubtwoblades of grass over how hairy his back is or who he choses to fall in love with, but he sounds liek the guy to turn to in times of need i like nate and it ain't no clogged pores in my ears about his statistics or his nekkid picture on the net, but he always has something worth listening to and I could go on like the sap i can be, but damn its late.

And I like 'lama, even though he works for the evil government. I mean, think about it, you don't really believe the army hires archaeologists for "cultural resource" surveys, do you?

Jim - Sorry if I missed the sarcasm in your post. I thought you were being serious so I tried to encourage you. I guess the idea that people only saw you for reasons pertaining to sex hit a little close to home, but I can see you didn't mean it. Again, I'm sorry. Next time I'll keep quiet. Nate - what? I really hate getting personal, but...what? I didn't realize anything I said had anything to do with whether Jim's gay or not. If you tell me where it did, I'll make sure not to do it again. Does anyone else have a problem with me? Please feel free to let me know. This is the perfect time for it.

Don,t fuck with Gee,I got her back.

Apology accepted, but not necessary, Gee. It takes a lot to really piss me off. Semilama- thanks for your too kind words. :-) Waffles- You've never had a Cider Jack? Ohhh man. Good stuff. I just wish more bars would carry it.

Damn. The U.S. army doesn't hire archaeologists for cultural resources? My father (former certified conscientious objection counselor) was doing covert ops all these years? Wow.

oh, whoops. sorry gee. i think i was in a bad mood.

That's right, Lucy. And Maxwell Smart was a greeting card salesman.

I love you J.

ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!! http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9908/19/site.hacked/

waffleboy. shut up and listen. being a woman already makes me a target. who do you think runs the business world? why do you think it's that way in the first place? people like you are the problem. and you want to know why? because you can site all the statistics you want, you can tell anecdontal stories about your wife all you want, you can deny your white male priveleges, but you don't know what it's like. you never will. and moreover, it's white males who have the power, which includes the power to make changes. thus you have even *more* of a responsibility to take my side, to try to understand my situation. you have the responsibility to fight for equity and justice in whatever way you can, because as sickening as it is (i want to barf just thinking of saying this aloud), the social structure is such that it's people like you who can get things done, who can institute change. but that is just a pipe dream. fighting for justice would mean giving up your priveledges. and we all know it ain't gonna happen. that's why affirmative action is the imperfect policy that helps. and for all you people bitching about affirmative action, i have one thing to say: quit your whining. because affirmative action has barely even scraped the surface of the problems. you're fucking lucky you still have it so easy. (here come the anecdotal stories of priveledged white males not being able to get into Yale... let me get a box of kleenex...) if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. this is all from me. i couldn't help myself. i'm glad you all kissed and made up here, i love that part. but in the end, discussing the real issues is just a waste of time around here.

WHOOOOOA!!!!!! Sarah, really I like you, REALLY I wasn't personally attacking you, listen i sympathize, I tell antecdontal stories to tell I have a little second hand experience in what you are dealing with......to tell you that I do understand..I have seen the tears from my wife when she has come home fro a particularly WRONG day. It anger sme more than you believe, but there is nothing i can do for her.....if I demand a joint metting with her president to talk to him about how he is an asshole....that,,,in his eyes anyway...makes my wife look like she can't fend for herself.....if she whines and complains ALL the time, they will unfortunately think she is being BITCHY....(all women are BITCHY to them right??) you know how that works.....so she does what she can, she works extra hard and exceeds them all......Like I said, it's something that happens over time....tyou can't change the mentality of a 30 or 40+ year old man. All I can do is stop it on a personal level...If ther is something else i can do.....PLEASE tell me....Of course I will never fully experience what you may go thru...I have a penis...I can't change that...I am stuck with it......but I also do understand the business world and how it works and I know money topples everything......if money is to be made by being sexist, by golly people will do it....if money is to be made by dumping a small one man operation by a corporate power..people will do it..money money money.....if you say I have the privaledges, GREAT, I wish I knew what they were, if you say I have the power to change things GREAT! I wish I knew how..... I think you misunderstand, I DO take your side, I do understand the frustration, I am not denying the sexism in our workplaces.......I will gladly take your side and fight the enemy.......I have feminist for a wife and I am a feminist myself...I just don't know of these privaledges you speak of, I don't know what they are, I personally don't have any powers that you don't. If I do, I would love to know what the hell they are.......it just seems really retroactive to slam a whole race and gender by saying "they" hold the power.....a blanket statement that just doesn't apply anymore..................and by saying i am a part of the problem simply because i don't know what its like....well then that would mean every penis bearing human is part of the problem...how right is that....?

White male privelege is the privelege of being seen as a person, rather than as a race/gender/religion.

if women would just realize their place, none of this trouble would be happening. everything has a place.

ahem. it occurs to me that nobody here seems to understand what it is to be a white, straight, american male. i was never asked to be what i am. i am not privileged. i am not in any way responsible for the past, present or future. the burden of social equality does not belong to me. and yet i am expected to be some sort of shining example of brotherly and sisterly love. because of what i am, it's wrong for me to be petty, jealous, spiteful, blaming while the rest of you who are other than white, straight, american males can wallow in all of those baser emotions as well as the rest and that's somehow ok. it seems to me that i am also limited by being born what i am but i don't expect you to understand that.

shut up cracker.

Friendly, there is no arguing with that. Just don't expect me to shed any tears for you. Every member of society is responsible for social justice. White males even more so, as you have profited(like it or not) by a system of injustice. As Waffleboy so kindly pointed out, even poor white males are more likely to have computers. With privelege comes responsibility. Sara said it best: are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Nate: we have learned our place. It just happens to be on top.

Shut up! Be happy! The comforts you've demanded are now mandatory!

i'll be the cracker you, mr nate, be the cheese bartender! more beer!

haiku for boneheads

I love you too, Sarah.

Some balls are held for charity and some for fancy dress but the balls held for pleasure are the ones that I like best. Understand me, people: the stick comes out your collective ass (or, in Waffles case, goes UP your ass to stem the flow) or I'm ac/dc'ing every damn thread until I run out of ac/dc lyrics. Jim, you officially have immunity because I was interested in your point and unable to swim through this crap to get a better look.

I love everyone,can,t we all just get along?Who has not heard the sound of one hand clapping?Why dd I say that?

What is this, a purple dinosaurs' convention?

I love you,you love me,something about a happy family,I love you...

i want some fucking ac/dc lyrics!!!!

OUCH!!! margret

Things I have time to do while waiting for this thread to load: 1. Put on a fresh pot of coffee. 2. Go into the living room and change the CD. 3. Listen to the first five or six tracks. 4. Pull out the AC/DC albums from my old vinyl collection and read thru all the lyrics. 5. Twice. 6. Go clean out the interior of my truck (as if). 7. Pour a cup from that fresh pot o'joe. 8. Eat an orange and vanilla ice cream-cicle 9. Take the dog for a walk. 10. To Moscow. 11. Order a pizza using my neighbor's phone. 12. Drink that coffee now that it's cooled a bit. 13. Moscow, Idaho, wiseguy. 14. Celebrate a family birthday or two. Oh, wow, here it is. Hey all! Now what the hell were we talking about again? Oh yeah, Diamonds and dust, poor man last, rich man first. Lamborghinis, caviar, dry martinis, Shangrila.

And you, Margret. I love you.

I love her too,I love you too Gee,I love you,you love me,we are a dysfuntional family.

Gee were you always the one in the back ground tongue out ....."nananana booboo stick yer head in doodoo"......???? just checkin

I hate myself for waiting for this thread to load. But I can't stop. It's a sickness.

dsl, baybee. you will wait no longer.

Not here... we still receive AM radio interference on these lines. They were personally installed by A. Graham Bell himself. On a good day our 56K modem might get thru at 28.8. That's downhill, with a brisk tailwind.

Why yes, Waffle. Yes, that was me. I'm glad you asked. I knew if I waited long enough, Agatha would show again. Gee loves Agatha.

too bad. maybe someday your little town will get somadat ee-leck-trickity. i hear that's some good stuff.

Shit, I go on vacation to see my sick grandmother for four days and this thread goes to hell. Just when it was getting interesting!

I think Somebody needs a little lovin.