Ahhhhhhhhhhh one can dream can't he? This tragic shooting in MI by he 6 year old....... Politically Incorrect had this discussion last night, i thought i would throw it out to you folks how many people need to die in situations like this before we realize that the NRA and other gun advocates need to sit down and shut the fuck up? Sure the NRA didn't...LITERALLY....kill anyone but their advocacy, their dollars spent on the cause, keep middle america armed with the false pretense that we have a right to own a dangerous weapon that has a sole purpose of inflicting harm. McDonalds in PA anyone??????? It seems the majority of America is for gun control, however, with the huge amounts of money behind the NRA, it seems that they manage to keep gun control out of legislatures.....what happened to Clinton's big push for GC after Columbine? What came of that? It's so fucking clear that we cannot handle the reponsibilty of guns, why he fuck are they still being sold at neighborhood pawn shops and gun stores? Now the NRA, as an organization, is a bi product of free speech, so i am not out to silence those who think we should have guns, no matter how moronic their opinions are, however what i am after is to end the political smoke they blow up our legislatures asses to keep seriuous gun control measures from hitting the books. Does anyone see this? Does anyone here belong to the NRA? Is the 2nd amendment relevant anymore? It's a can of worms, I know, but fuck it........

if that were my daughter, i'd be looking for a big gun right about now.

Every time I go abroad it always strikes me how America is a 3rd world nation when it comes to guns and danger. I mean, I don't live in a dangerous area at all (that murder test would seem to concur), but I know when I went to Canada I asked my Torontonian (?) friend what parts were OK to stay in and he was like 'Oh don't stay here and here - oh but you're American it prob won't freak you out a bit'. And you know, he was right. I mean what are they gonna do? Beat me? Stab me? Ha! You have to really want to kill someone to do it in those ways. I'm not even capable of being that irritating. Shooting is more like 'Wow I'm so angry at you - whoops!' Still, when I was in New Hampshire at Thanksgiving I was asked on 2 separate occasions if I'd like to go to the shooting range. An idea which at once intregued me and terrified me. The idea that I could just turn and kill someone instead of shoot at the target. It was too creepy. I don't know how they'd get rid of guns tho. I mean we can't even organise health care how would we organise rounding up all the guns? America is such a republican place. I feel thrilled if a candidate doesn't want to repeal abortion legalizing laws. It's sad.

You know there'd always be a loophole in gun control legislation, and that things like this would continue to happen. But I'd vote yes on more gun control anyway. The second amendment is not at all relevant. Bears, armed or not, have nothing to do with this. And they never cite the entire amendment, either, which annoys me.

Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

as far as i know, it is currently illegal to shoot a 6 year old with a stolen handgun. no matter of gun control will remove the ability of people to own illegally aquired handguns. this situation does not warrant increased gun control. we have plenty of gun control. handguns are required to be registered. background checks are required before the purchase of handguns. Cars kill far more people than handguns. Why not throw your efforts into a cause where you can save more lives? let's have car control! i don't see cars mentioned anywhere in the constitution.

In my state i have to be trained and licensed to operate my vehicle. I am compelled by law to have my emissions checked every year and also to carry liability insurance in case of accident. I am also forced to follow such arbitrary rules as not driving 65 in a residential area, not taking shortcuts over sidewalks or through people's backyards, and a host over things. I am not allowed to drink and drive, even there is nothing more fun. There is too much car control all ready. Shit, if we got rid of cars are society would come to a grinding halt. Besides, the number of auto-related deaths caused by people specifically running somebody else over is probably on the low side. And i bet there isn't one instance on the books of a 6 year-old driving his dad's car to school and running another kid over in the parking lot.

right, what he said......... a gun is designed to kill.....nothing more, nothing less........ don't be so pig headed about it....registering and background checks are not enough..,.OBVIOUSLY.....anyone with a child in their household should not be allowed to own a gun, period! We have proven, as a society that we cannot keep our kids away from daddy's glock.....a few ruined it for all, stop being babies about it! conceal and carry repealed......trigger locks required.....semi automatics, banned. Sell guns like some states sell liquor, a state or federal run store..........pawnshops should not be allowed to buy and sell guns. K-mart and other stores like it must pull all of their weapons from the shelves......... Laws on the books to the effect of.......got a gun and you threaten or use it against anyone other than a life or death situation.....Prison minumum 10 years baddabing baddaboom.....no fuss, no muss, no exceptions, you fuck up, you pay the price minus a lawyer's bullshit......+ whatever other law you might have broken such as murder or robbery...

patrick, you're talking out your ass. which state has the strictest gun control legislation? which state has the highest rate of gun related crime? give me a couple hours and i could get an unregistered firearm. more laws will not change this.

hardly my ass nate i don't know i don't know we prove time and time again we can't handle the responsibilty of gun ownership.....so fuck it. the few ruined for all. just because a black market exists is no reason not to take measures to try and protect the general public from assholes who loose a fucking screw. How many people get a gun legally and still kill? give me a few hours and i could obtain anthrax, or at least the recipe.......

I didn't know you were on such good terms with God. "Anthrax is an infectious bacterial disease spread by contact with infected animals, handling infected products, eating infected meat, or breathing weapon-dispersed anthrax spores." http://www.anthrax.osd.mil

im testy this morning Rhi, lacking sleep, you know what I meant.... let me replace "recipe" with "instructions on how to obtain the deadly bacteria" who wants to see naked pictures?

Naked Anthrax?

"got a gun and you threaten or use it against anyone other than a life or death situation.....Prison minumum 10 years baddabing baddaboom" this is similar to the law in california. the state with teh strictest gun regulations. and the highest rate of gun related crime. over and over again it has been shown in practice that instating the legal ability to carry a concealed weapon has lead directly to a reduction in crime. period. what are you? a nazi? taking away guns is the first step towards a successful facist reign. you'd think that in california, where the governor has already said that the legislators should 'rubber stamp' his views, and that any judge he appoints should without fail uphold the governor's views (or be removed,) you'd think you'd be concerned about facism. instead the media brainwashing continues. when juvenile crime is moving drastically downward, but media sensationalism is moving ahead at a frightening pace, this is what you get. plain as day. to get the guns out of the hands of honest citizens, we must make it seem that guns are ruining society.

nazi? i can't believe you said that...... fascist state? please...... no nate, i suppose in this regard, i am a dreamer, set phasers to stun, i imagine aworld in which man accepts responsibility for his actions, when we realize WE ARE THE problem AND THE SOLUTION, a world in which a gun is an obnoxious tool of judgement of which no one has a right to do.......... right now it seems, guns are just an excuse, a defense against some sorta of formidable force, you fear, a force that has no meaning to me and should have no meaning to anyone. To call reference me with fascism is silly man, you know that.

no beav, new pages have been added to the site, the photographer in san fran has, the pics he did of me and the wifey.....

Taking away access to weaponry is the first smart step of anyone wishing to displace a current governmental regime with one of their own making, duh. Lte's drop the nazi crap, I really hate it when people resort to that. Maybe if you have to use it because it's the only genocidal regime you can think of (which strikes me as wacky) then we could rename it as, like, Das Bunny regime, or Gummi regime or even the Xtreme Cace Order or something so I don't feel like I'm being forced to grade undergraduate ethics papers all over again. All that said, you want to really dislike someone? I don't care if kids get killed by guns. I don't value the lives of the 'innocent' more than the lives of anyone else. In fact, though I like kids in general and like humans in general, I actually don't like the class 'children' because it's some sacrosanct category in whose name people are far more willing to curtail the political liberties (all of them, babycakes, not just the weapons ones...that censorship of the internet shit did not come down in the name of MY fucking age group)than they would for themselves ever. I figure it's a parent thing, and I'm worried about it happening to me. Security and freedom (and I'm not talking that crunchy natural freedom I don't believe in but the historically limited politically ascribed freedoms) are always in tension. I am worried that the security of these beings whom I imagine I will love better and more than I love myself will make me reassess the priorities I currently have. I grew up with literally hundreds of guns in my home, I was mocked and reviled by the neighborhood children as was my younger brother of the hair-trigger temper, and though Philip once went after a detractor with a pitchfork (after taking a screwdriver in the face, btw), it never even occurred to us to use the more sophisticated weaponry equally close at hand.

I get so disgusted with people who have guns and leave them where their kids can get their hands on them,same for people who have pools and don,t watch their kids.When you have a child you have to protect them,that,s what a parent is supposed to do.

"Taking away access to weaponry is the first smart step of anyone wishing to displace a current governmental regime with one of their own making, duh." is the the perpetuation of the us vs. them mantality on a global scale perhaps? You anticipate a take over the minute our guns are removed. What about countries and cultures that don't have access to weapons such as guns? When was the last time Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Switzerland, UK, Spain etc had their gov't displaced? What countries or gov't have experienced a coup when the public was disarmed? When, in the last two centuries has a country been disarmed period? Has any other gov't or country allowed guns like the US? I am asking because i trust your knowledge. NOW* i am talking out of my ass nate, as in, out of the context of reality. i would like to live in a world in which it doesn't matter......where nationalities are irrelavent, the concept of gov't a primative notion, where people don't wear their religions on their sleeve, where we are truly individuals and living life to the fullest.......i wish, margret, more people expressed similar sentiments about not truly caring about anyone in particular. Perhaps this would lead us to stop meddling in the lives of others, leading grand crusades for this cause and that cause.

"Stop, Don't Touch, Leave The Area, Tell An Adult." This is the NRA's idea of gun saftey for kids, ever heard of it? "Just say no" worked just as well. Lets face it kids, guns are going no where quick and what happened in the U.K. is the selling point of the NRA's "Fear the inch, for it is part of the Yard" mentality. I personally would like to see a different type of gun control. The idea is best layed out here: www.shooters.com/st701.html. The NRA's response to that idea is here: http://nrawinningteam.com/smartg.html

Yo, you all, in case you're really lazy: http://www.shooters.com/st701.html

Damn YOuuuuuuuu!!!! Damn You All to Hell!!!!!!! Bunch of damn pussies! Patrick, you sure you got a set between your legs? Get your heard out of your ass and be a man for once would ya!? Happiness is a warm gun sitting in my right front pocket........I tend to hang that way!

Everyone should just switch over to mace. The kind that shows up under the black light. Or paintball guns.

Greetings workin' hard, playin' hard America. Fully erect ponytail BoyNuge here. Ya'll liberal sassafrass pansies need to spend a week up here on Lake Nuge. I'll turn ya 'round. Happiness is a warm carcus in the back of yer truck....and a warm double barrel across yer lap.

I just remembered watching this great thing on Discovery: It was some town in Italy I'm pretty sure, and they would have teams that were sections of the town. Each section would have a horse racer, and these horses would be brought into the church to be prayed for and sung songs to. Then the race started. No rules, full aggression, if the horse crosses the line without it's racer, it still wins. At the starting line the racers would get their horses to bite each other and just cause havoc for one another. The violence rate in that town was extremely low.

That's the Palio in Siena. I think it takes place every August. It's a tradition that's centuries old.

Have you ever seen the "Life Is Hell" cartoon by Matt Groening in which Binky is reading to Bongo something about how society is going down the drain and he gives all these sad examples and he ends with "we're like a frog that's in a pot, slowly boiling to death without realizing it," and Bongo says, "poor little frog"? That's me.

Put it this way, Nate: If yr 5-yr-old daughter were run over by a car -- not a drunk driver/just a normal motorist obeying the road rules who cdn't stop in time when yr baby dashed out into the street to catch the ice cream man -- wdn't you feel a lot less devastated than if she were shot by a 6-yr-old at school? She'd be just as dead/but you wd know that she died in an accident/vs. a completely preventable act. There is very little order to the chaos of random things we can't prevent. Accidents happen. But pointing a loaded weapon at someone & shooting them/even if you're 6/is NOT an accident. A 6-yr- old is old enuf to understand that shooting someone is gonna kill them. And if that 6-yr-old hadn't been living in a house w/2 stolen firearms on the premesis/& adults who were careless beyond belief abt safeguarding their guns/then a little girl named Kayla wd still be in the world. And please, take a minute to take a breath & really think abt that. If there were no guns in that house in Michigan/a little girl wd still be alive. If there were no guns in anybody's house anywhere in America/thousands of little girls & boys/men & women/wd still be alive. And they can't do shit to the boy who shot her/ becuz the bastard is only 6. And yeah -- to me/he's a bastard. Becuz I grew up in a house w/a gun. By the time I was 6/I knew where my father kept it. And I NEVER even thought to point it at anyone/much less fire it. Neither did my brother -- despite all his GI Joe's & cap guns & water pistols. Not becuz we were special/but becuz we didn't have a murderous heart/like that 6-yr-old in Michigan. Kayla/however/will never get to be 6. What justice do all us grown-ups -- the ones who make the laws & make the choice to buy guns or not -- offer her now that she's been snuffed? What wd you say to Kayla, Nate, if she appeared before you in yr dreams tonite? I'm so fucking tired of having this argument... And I'm so sick of sick little White boys bringing their daddy's guns to school & playing Rambo. But when it comes to gun control/folks are nearly as entrenched as they are abt abortion rights. No one's willing to give an inch to the other side/no matter how fair & just the ultimate consequences of change might be/no matter how much suffering might be avoided. But for all you folks who are White enuf not to fear the police in yr own neighborhoods (Where is it written that street cops must be armed? Police in England don't carry weapons! And why is it that Black cops never get to make the 'mistake' of shooting down innocent White people? In NYC/ White cops even shoot Black undercover cops/mistaking them for perps. But I've never heard or read abt a Black police officer 'mistakenly' shooting a White undercover cop. But maybe the Black cops are just smarter than their White counterparts... ) & deluded enuf to believe that a few firearms in yr home will allow you to face off w/the Feds if Uncle Sam ever decides he really wants yr ass/I offer this compromise: Continue to keep the laws on the books as they are. Continue to allow gun manufacturers to create weapons w/out even the simplest safety features/& let practically anyone buy them -- Uzzi's/machine guns/rocket launchers/whatever. But the next time some kid gets hold of a gun & kills someone/there will be a mandatory 25-yr-sentence for the adult gun-owner who let that shit happen. A mandatory sentence/just like the 3 Strikes law. A fast bench trial w/out a jury. And no chance of parole. Just Go Directly To Prison & Stay There for 25 Years. I don't think that's too draconian. My people marched & fought & went to jail & got beaten & murdered just to secure the right to vote & use the same bathrooms as other Americans. Becuz it was That Important A Right. Those of you who insist on yr Right to Bear Arms shd be willing to go to prison the next time some kid gets hold of yr weapon. Shdn't you?

I love living in NZ - our police have access to guns if required (trained armed offenders squads, etc) but on a daily basis the officer on the beat or in a patrol car is not armed with a gun. NZ is a pioneering sort of country, we have our good ol' boys who are in love with guns, but most people I know can't even conceive of wanting to have a weapon that can kill another person so easily. Some criminals do have guns, but the most wanted bank robbers recently were the "screwdriver gang". That's right, their weapon of choice was a screwdriver, and the police put a heap of effort into apprehending them. The point is if there aren't many guns in the law-abiding population, and they have to be kept under lock and key when not in use for hunting or whatever, there aren't many guns available to criminals. Something has to be readily available before criminals can get their hands on it and create a black market. Don't you all move to NZ, I like our low population density too. Plus we won the America's Cup again (maybe they should call it the New Zealand Cup?).

Guns: We had had guns in my house for hunting...always did. My stepfather taught me how to shoot a revolver at maybe 14 or something, and he always told me: a. don't _ever_ point this at someone b. don't _ever_ remove this without my permission It seemed to work pretty well, since I never, ever, touched that gun unless I was given the ok. I didn't even particularily like to shoot. It never held any mystique or curiosity for me. It was just..smelly. I don't think better gun control laws would help, I think we need to start enforcing the ones we have. I refuse to become emotionally overwrought over all these school shootings, although I, too, feel that they could have been prevented and that they were very sorrowful. But...I don't know. If I ever had kids, I wouldn't keep a gun in the house. Of course, I didn't handle a gun after I left for college, and have no desire to either. You can make lots of things lethal.

when i was in the hospital after my spinal cord injury, i briefly shared a room with this 12 year-old kid who's little brother had accidently shot him in the throat with a fairly high-powered rifle. playin' with daddy's guns and all that. of all the quadruplegics i've ever seen, he was the worst - he left the hospital in a chair that was like a refrigerator with a chair built into it. it carried all this hardware that ran helped beat his heart, work his lungs, etc. he was always positive though, and funny. there was another kid of about 7 who was a paraplegic. he was playing in his sandbox in his backyard when a drunk driver jumped the curve and plowed into him. this particular kid who did the shooting in michigan wasn't a little white boy, by the way.

Although i, too, thought he was white at first, from the impression I got of the house he lived in. I saw the car in back with its hood up and instantly thought "Aha! cedar savage." Then they said it was in Flint, and i thought, "hmm, -ex-autoworker." I was suprised to hear it was a black boy who shot the little girl. What struck me is how race hasn't been really played up in this case. (unlike PA, but hey, the guy said he was out to kill white people, hard to avoid race there [however,only brief mention was made of his mental health problems -interesting]). I think NZA has th ebest point about guns. And I think Patrick's points would hold more water if he'd add teh qualifier "outside wartime". Finnish Militias fought the Russians during WWII with their hunting rifles (not that it did a whole lot of good). And of course, there was the Spanish Civil War. However, I think the best argument against needing guns to either keep the government in line (Laughable, really, they do a splendid job of that regardless of the matter of private gun ownership) or affect social change, is the civil rights moment of the 60s. Doesn't anybody recall non-violence and the principles of civil disobedience?

Race hasn't come into in YET. But just wait. For a 6-yr-old Black boy to have shot a 5-yr-old girl -- & a WHITE GIRL??? I wd've locked him up anyway on g.p./even before I knew he was Black. But I'm am SURE now that The System will find a way to lock him up for a long time. And that is as it shd be. This is the 1st time I've heard of a Black kid committing a school shooting. But I shdn't be surprised. Sooner or later/the madness had to start infecting Black boys too. I even saw my 1st Asian (Vietnamese,I believe) serial killer on t.v. last week. My point is/they shd fry his mother. His father was already off n jail somewhere. But if his mother & her boyfriend & whomever else lived in that house hasn't had those guns/this never wd've happened. But this ain't gonna be the last... NZA -- is it cold in New Zealand? If it's as warm as Australia/& as free of gun violence as Canada or Japan/I may seriously consider paying you a visit. Becuz I am sick to death of living in a country where every idiot & half-wit can own a gun. And Florida is prolly worse than this whole fucking sorry-assed nation.

right, no gun violence here. all we get are a couple of parents who dismembered their kid and buried the pieces of her body in the park.

RC - it depends where you want to live. North Island Auckland - full of yuppies. Wellington - politicians (yup thats our capital South Island Christchurch (where me and NZA live) and its warm in summer and cool in Winter (but no snow - although the nearest ski-field is about 1.5 hours away) Dunedin which is student city (snows in winter, mild in summer) Thats the four main centres, but theres lots of towns etc in between. Plus you can drive from one side of either island in a couple of hours.

Careful honey, hell's coming to breakfast..... Fuck you R.C. You are the one who ALWAYS plays the race card and you usually don't have your facts straight. That's my opinion like it or not.

Hey R.C.....Wayne Williams was set up! And by the way did you ever notice in billiards that the white ball always knocks the black ball into a hole? Damn racist bastards, all of em'!

"Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Switzerland, UK, Spain" patrick, you are aware that in at least one of these countries every household has a government issued automatic rifle? RC: "If there were no guns in that house in Michigan/a little girl wd still be alive. If there were no guns in anybody's house anywhere in America/thousands of little girls & boys/men & women/wd still be alive." if there were no cars, how many more little girls and boys would be alive? if there were no guns in anybody's house anywhere in America, we'd never have gotten out from under the british. how about someone gives some logical arguments for the removal from guns from the hands of citizens. i don't want to hear any arguement for increased gun control because: 1) i believe that a requirement for trigger locks would be beneficial. 2) i support registering firearms and background checks. 3) no amount of gun control can or would have saved that little girl. the pistol was stolen. illegal. and, RC: "wdn't you feel a lot less devastated than if she were shot by a 6-yr-old at school? " no. it would be the loss of my girl that would trouble me, not the reason.

hey since we're gettin into skin color check this out a plane is flying and a jet blows the captain comes on and says "don't worry we can make it with one jet down" pretty soon another jet blows and the pilot comes on and says "we are going to have to lighten the load if anyone is to survive to be fair about it we will go alphabetically starting with "a" all african americans please stand" nobody stands then the captain comes on and says "ok then how about "b" all black people please stand" nobody stands but a little black boy tugs on his dads sleave and says "dad aint we black" his father responds "fuck you today we niggers let the mexicans go first"

yes nate, after your comment i recall that is it switzerland or sweden that issues the gun to each household. However thats weak link in your argument. There will always be the exception to the rule, and in this case, it may have a lot to do with their culture.....our culture doesn't lend itself to peace.....we have always been a a war monger of a nation, in peace time, the battle field is here...... "no. it would be the loss of my girl that would trouble me, not the reason." I don't buy that. nate, how do you intend to police the trigger lock law? Registering and back ground checks are fine an all, but that says nothing about what one does with he gun once they are cleared. Seeing as how random shootings by derranged white and black folks, suburbanites gone mad, they are the ones who clear these checks........have no prior record....... You have no idea if gun control could have saved that little girl. If we had enacted 10 years ago, the banning of guns all together, that stolen gun may have never been around..... I am not scared in my neighborhood. I live in the Rampart division, the largest corruption scandle took place in the area that i live......hell if anything, the cops are busy tip toeing aroundbecause they are on eveyone's shit list.....advantage:CRIMINAL

ok. say we ban guns. guns are now illegal in the US. who has guns? extrapolate. who has weed? weed's illegal. banning guns would only keep guns out of the hands of honest people. and guns in the hands of honest people deters crime. this is evidenced by the statistical fact that violent crime has reduced following the enactment of carry concealed legislation in every state that has enacted carry concealed legislation in the past 30 years.

R.C. Saddly, Canada has been affected by gun violence as well. Shortly after Colombine (SP?) some kid killed one, and wounded a few others in school, in Taber Ab. Just a few days ago, there was a playground shooting, no deaths, in Toronto. It's not a matter of banning guns, it is reducing thier use and production. Do we really need to produce thousands of guns every day? It just seems a little excessive.

pot doesn't hurt anyone. the age old argument about drugs,"look what happend during prohitbiton" doesn't work here. Thats when we rely on police to sweep as best as they can...i admit it would be tough if not next to impossible to completely banish guns......how many crimes have been committed with guns bought legitimately? It's a lot more difficult to smuggle a case of uzzies than it is to smuggle a lb of coke......stolen guns from the hands of honest people increases crime. Guns in the honest households increase the chance that the gun will be used against the owner or someone in that house.....determining who is honest and who isn't is point of contention, and in reality, you never truly know what anyone is going to do witha gun.

If that little boy had taken a baseball bat to school and beat that little girl to death with it would anyone be calling on a ban of baseball bats?

uzis aren't legal in california. "pot doesn't hurt anyone." that's not the point. the point is that whenever you want an 8th you don't have any trouble finding someone to sell you one. yet pot is illegal. make guns illegal, the black market will grow to fulfil demand. "Thats when we rely on police to sweep as best as they can" are you familiar with the fourth amendment?

just an example, subsitute whatever you like J, take another hit and rethink that. I understand that, but that shouldn't be a reason not to ban guns.....fear of an exploding black market......i am aware of the 4th amendment, I am also aware that this doesn't apply at border crossings and ports of entry. ...did ya hear the supreme court ruled recently ruled that if you see a cop, run, they have probably cause to stop you?

eh...... lets talk about sex or something.....

When the world seems out of control and life appears pointless I comfort myself with these words. I'm in control! I have a gun! I'll take hostages!

The real telling question here: Are there any honest citizens in America? Maybe there should be less cars as well. With mag-lev trains and efficient public transport, we could reduce the amount of people killed from that as well. no cars, no guns. No drive-by shootings! There we go. as far as baseball bats go, it's easier to stop someone with a bat than with a gun. The level of lethality is so huge with guns, compared to other weapons. That's why we use them to kill one another. back to the little boy in Michigan- the kid may be placed in a foster home, but no criminal charges will preseed against him as it is not common law in Michigan to prosecute children for felonies. They are coming down hard on his brother (who owned the gun) and his uncle (who was in possession of a stolen shotgun). Apparently, the kid was raised by criminals. Great moral background there.