| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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The Australian government (think Republican) is now attempting to introduce a law effectively banning single women or lesbian couples from access to invitro fertilisation. There is a cost issue since it is a medical procedure which is normally covered under our tax-payer funded Medicare system. I should tell you that heterosexual couples get access to IVF, no questions asked and no screening process. Whaddyareckon? |
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are abortions legal in australia? |
Agatha, I'm not sure how they're going to actually phrase the proposed law. But I believe it's intent is to deny free access to IVF for single women and lesbians. I have a kind of contradictory opinion on the whole debate...I believe single women and lesbians should have the same rights as women in a heterosexual relationship. But there's a case where a mother wants to carry the child of her 22 year old gay son. Now that's getting just a bit too weird for me and I'm not sure if it's in the resulting child's best interests. A possible solution is to have some sort of screening process for all people seeking IVF treatment...based on whether they can support the child financially and emotionally. But then does that discriminate against lower income families? A child is not a commodity and there are some people who should never be parents. For example, should heterosexual couples, where there is a history of domestic violence, be allowed access to IVF? However, it's mighty hard to start legislating about who should have a child and who shouldn't. |
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If you're a Pink, we sterilize you. If you are a SubGenius or a discordian or some other type of person that the humans fear and try to destroy, then you can have as many kids as you want. |
However, I think having this type of thing paid for by tax dollars a only begs for this type of debate and is really a waste of time. If it were privatized, then this wouldnt be a topic. Im kinda bothered by the woman who wants to birth her sons baby. thats really sick and twisted, would she be his grandmother or mother? |
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i dont think the rich have any greater right to spawn. I see IVF as a luxury, not a necessity. |
Remember, Government is just what the people with all the money decide to do today. And rights are whatever doesn't get in the way of making a buck. |
Shit, I forgot, you're a Republican! Add to the debate or stay out of the way... By making a technology available to the highest bidder, you are giving the highest bidder a greater right to use it. So, in a capatalistic society without any checks, the rich do have greater rights. And, every medical advance was once a luxury... |
An infertile couple, desperately longing for a child, would disagree that IVF is a luxury. We willingly provide free treatment to someone whose heart is not functioning, so why not to someone whose ovaries/testicles are not doing their stuff? |
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hey i do. |
Freebies are never free. They gotta cost someone. Why charge more taxes to someone who does not need the opperation, is opposed to the procedure or, and this is the part that really bites, hike up taxes on those WHO CANNOT AFFORD IT to pay for the ones holding their hands out for a "public assistance program". Tax dollars should go for highway improvements, national defense, the president's limo (:-() etc. Things for the population, not the individual. My original statement was just that we had no business making the procedure illegal to anyone |
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I understand it probably is just ego, but I'd be devastated if I couldn't have children. I see combining DNA as the ultimate expression of love. Actually it must be incredible to have sex knowing that you actually could be making a baby. |
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I bid you all adieu. |
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the idea of possibly making a baby during sex would positively destroy my libido if i ever thought of it. fortunately, i've practiced birth control since i was a very young teenager. i knew that i liked sex, but that i never EVER wanted kids. i knew this even when i was a kid myself. i'm so glad i didn't spawn. so glad. i'm pretty much too old to have kids now (well, i guess i could, w/ medical intervention, but why the fuck bother?) my husband & i are both "last of the line"...if we don't breed, our family trees basically stop dead. who cares? it's not reason enough to bring a human life into the world. other people have had quite enough children...the human species is hardly going to go extinct because we didn't add to it personally. i understand that adoption can be difficult, in some cases. i, myself, was adopted multiple times. if anybody cares, you might remember pilate's posts about homeschooling a 15-year-old boy. the reason pilate hasn't been around is because he's busy w/ an attorney. he's filing for legal custody of the kid. the boy's mother sought him out & asked him to. she also wanted him to adopt an infant that's on the way (remember, this abandoned/neglected/abused kid comes from a family of 11). pilate declined on the infant, but is going to try to get the boy. |
And, I'd argue against Trace, 'cept he's gone... Bummer... :-) C'mon back, Cat! The dawg's not here to chase you around the yard anymore... |
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at the moment, i've only got a few minutes to post. but the way i see it, there's been an obscene jump in the number of people having babies. everything is so damn pro-family now (that's a howl...remember, a childfree family is a family just the same...but most people can't get that through their thick heads). look all around you. there are kids everywhere, w/ mommies schlepping around strollers the size of sherman tanks. even places that were formerly the domain of adults, like casinos & nightclubs, are now catering to the kiddies. the banshee-like shrieks of children can be heard everywhere now & there's no escape. anyhow, w/ all the kids running around, do we really need more? i don't even think so. prolonging life? yeah, i've seen cases where that's bombed, too. i know of an infant that had needles shoved in its skin every couple of hours, had extremely painful operations (no anathesia), was prodded & poked & tortured...so it could live for three days. that's bullshit. everyone KNEW the kid was going to die. the medicos even admitted it. so they tortured this kid for nothing, instead of letting it die a peaceful death. had i been the mother, i would've kidnapped the doctor in charge & given him a few private surgeries of his own. there's also a big damn difference in preserving the people who are already stuck on this planet & adding new ones into the mix. we've got major crises w/ the ones we've already got. why add more? it makes no sense. it may come as a shock, but not everybody on this planet is well cared for. until they are, why increase the population? once a person is put here, yes, there should be concerns for their quality of life. that means for children, too. they respond as negatively as anyone else to overcrowding. i just don't think that people should be shitting out kids like goddamn pez dispensers. unplanned kids (& even some of the planned ones) are bad for the adults, bad for the children in question (including siblings) & bad for society. i don't care what fancy arguments or statistics are applied to it. it's just plain wrong, in my book. but that's my opinion. & i may be mistaken, but it's possible that i'm not the first person on this site to offer my goofy opinions w/o a dissertation to back up the points. not every single point i make has to necessarily be wrapped up in crystalline logic. it's just an opinion. please remember that i'm here to chat, not to argue w/ folks. have whatever opinion you like. it doesn't have to agree w/ my own. there's only so much i can do w/ fancy arguments. i've just stated the way i feel about the issue, that's all. i can stop ranting about this anytime now. i don't mean to be a bore. i just wanted to add a different perspective. |
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and i'm just not dave with that. |
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i've been pretty militant about this issue since i was a kid myself. but what may have me going over the edge right now is watching what pilate's going through as he tries to adopt this kid. you can't believe what this poor boy's parents are like. it makes me want to beat the shit out of them. the chances of pilate getting the boy are pretty damn good...(1) the biological parents are totally consenting (2) the parents have plenty of child neglect & other serious problems on their records (3) it's a local adoption (4) the parents are claiming that pilate is a longtime friend of the family (5) the kid's old enough to express his will, which is to remain w/ pilate (6) the authorities don't know that pilate's gay (although the bio-parents & his lawyer do) (7) they're trying to get the case hammered through as quickly as possible (8) the parents have stated over & over again that they don't want the boy. the parents are trying to give away some of their kids (several have actually been adopted out in the past) because more kids are coming. the boy's sisters still live at home & they keep churning out kids. there are so many kids you can't believe it. & they're underfed, utterly neglected & abused. the authorities will do nothing. they keep returning the kids to the home, which is disastrous. anyway, i'm babbling. i do have strong opinions on the subject, but as i've already said, they're just opinions. i strongly dislike being around kids, but i can't abide seeing them mistreated, either. it turns me into some sort of bizarre avenging angel. i wish i could put a fucking bullet between the eyes of every filthy bitch i see beating her kid in the aisles of wal-mart. if you must have kids, then by god, love them w/ all your heart. |
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Adoption. Fucking adoption. I know that it's deep and meaningful to bear your own child, to feel it growing inside you, etc, but there are thousands who need the good home that parents who really want children can offer. It makes me sick. If I _ever_ wanted children, which is very unlikely, I would adopt. It just doesn't seem fair to deny someone a chance. The thing is, I'd like to say that State shouldn't be paying for IVF, but that's the wonderful thing about socialized medicine--everything is paid for, and that's what makes it so awesome and great. So I can't say that. I can only say that it makes me sad people feel a need for IVF. Also, I agree that everyone should be permitted access to something, no matter how silly it is and how sad it makes me. |
"there's also a big damn difference in preserving the people who are already stuck on this planet & adding new ones into the mix!" CHA CHING!!!!1 "it's like the parents are too egomaniacal to adopt, they want to make sure that the kid had some of their genetic makeup in there. which is basically saying that they feel that their genetic stuff is somehow superior," antigone "And, every medical advance was once a luxury..." we are not talking about lifesaving technology. I say if you were born without the ability to reproduce, TOO FUCKING BAD, at least as far as the state is concerned. If your desire to raise a child is so strong then you adopt and deal with it........get over yourself. I think this is why child rearing people are often selfish assholes who think their DNA is so god damned special "Ohhhh we'll have the prettiest child, he'll have your eyes and my skin and ...." argggggghhhhh get over yourself! this is why waffleboy has no babies...i have no reason to reproduce, at this time anyway...i have nothing in me telling me to rear and raise........ hey droopy, if i may ask, how were you put in a wheel chair and has the governmemt done anything for you? Disability pay maybe...workers comp? Do you think the government owes you the ability to walk? the governemnet does not owe you the right to reproduce, the government cannot prevent you from rearing, but if you have circumstances preventing it, too bad. I for one, would advocate Cat reproducing, as i would be quite sad if her genes didn't carry on. here kitty kitty kitty here kitty kitty kitty......... |
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i fell off a building when i was 19 because i was wasted. i was lucky enough to have a father who was vice-president at a bank, so i really didn't have to worry that much about money. i did start getting "social security disability insurance" right after getting out of rehab - about $175 per month and pretty much went to paying for all the equipment, meds, & doctor's appts that i needed. I still get those checks, because apparently it's lifelong and won't be cut off depending on your personal income. i don't have any moral reservations about it, really; the guvment does a lot of things with my tax dollars i don't like, so if they wanna pay for my antibiotics and raised toilet seat, that's fine by me. i don't expect the government to pay for me to walk because (a) my injuries are to severe for that to happen in my lifetime (b) there are enough private organizations doing a better job. I credit capitalism with the quality of health care that i have access to. i don't think in terms of "deserving" anything; i see it as a resource that i'd be a fool not to take advantage of. trace would say something like "in the middle ages they woudn't pay for your stuff" - the wallpaper on my 'puter is breughel's 'the cripples' - but who wants to live in the middle ages. |
I just wanted to add something that I don't think anyone else mentioned. I believe that every living thing that has the ability to think probably thinks their genes are superior... maybe intellectually you don't care to have kids, but people and animals are programmed to believe this and to propagate on an instinctual level. Maybe people who have no instinct to breed are rare because they don't breed and then that gene controls the lack of will to breed dies out. Does this make sense? I read a book called _The Selfish Gene_ by Richard Dawkins (I think) and he theorises (well) that the instinct to reproduce is on a cellular level. It is rarely seen in the wild where animals adopt other animals, even if they can't breed themselves. It does happen but it's generally rare. Also, I believe some people have kids because they can. They usually are the kinds of people who shouldn't be having kids, but that's something else. This is sort of a way of possessing something. I'm not saying it's right, but it seems to be prevalent. As for a socialised medical system providing IVF... I'd like to agree with whoever it was who wrote that there's probably is a reason for infertility and that these people probably shouldn't reproduce has really hit the nail on the head. This, of course, doesn't really apply to lesbians, since they are probably able bodied, just not willing, I guess. |
Damn, I'm good |
Question for Crimson (genuine one, born of one of my own concerns)...do you ever get afraid that you'll regret your decision to not have children? I think now I will probably succumb to my nurturing instinct at some stage in the future. In fact, I'm almost certain I will be looking to breed in a few years. But when I was less decided, I always worried that not having children would leave me asking myself if I'd missed something. (And please pass on a big smackeroonie of a hug to Pilate...his downright goodness warms my heart) |
child abuse is rampant in this area & my husband hears men on his job laughing about it all the time. it makes him sick. just the thought of those guys sticking needles into their kids' feet to punish them, beating their kids at age 4 for "acting gay", or stripping their daughters naked & beating them until they bleed just makes us both want to move to another planet. i know a woman who, when her kid was an infant, thought it was really funny to wait until the baby was asleep & then suddenly scream in the kid's face as loudly & violently as possible, because she thought the frightened expression on her kid's face was "funny". the kid never got any damn sleep. i've known women who take their kids by the feet & slam them into the walls. one local woman still gets hysterical w/ laughter talking about how she hit her kid so hard that he turned a flip in the air. my husband & i were both abused & we're just not having any part of it. we're SO afraid of perpetuating the cycle of violence that we will never have children. plus, there's a heavy possibility of twins in both our families, which could be even spookier. as for the old "who's going to take care of us when we're old" argument, i can only say that having children to take care of you is absolutely selfish as hell & unfair to the children. at any rate, shit doesn't work that way. kids taking care of you? hmph. elder abuse is at an all-time high. it's a national epidemic. your kids will take care of you, all right...by raping you, setting you on fire, leaving you to rot w/ bedsores & all the other fun stuff that makes the news (or gets conveniently covered up). i don't foresee any point in the future when i will regret my decision. almost everybody my age is chained down w/ kids & grandkids. fuck that. to me personally, it's just not worth it. i want to be chained down as little as possible. as for pilate, i support him 100%. absolutely. he really went through some hell when the kid's mother showed up to ask about the adoption. the kid was so afraid of his mother taking him back home that pilate found the boy later, hunkered in a ball on the top shelf of a closet, shaking & crying. the kid's 15 but fragile as hell. the thought of leaving pilate & the safe haven he's provided is a source of real terror. it upset pilate so much that he contacted a lawyer ASAP about setting up the adoption. pilate & trace (his boyfriend, not the trace who posts here) are so incredibly supportive & kind. i pray to god that they get the kid. he'll be in good hands, that's for sure. i've taken young people (teenagers) into my home before. i'll feed them if they need it & help them any way i can. i'm not a soul w/o feelings. i just don't dig younger children. thank heavens, there are other folks who do. |
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Is it no longer politically correct to have self esteem? |
I'm like sweetie pie by the Stone Alliance everybody know i'm known for dropping science. have a baby don't have a baby eat a baby let a dingo eat your baby shake your baby be a baby whatever baby. |
I just think the characterization of people who want to keep their genes going as "egomaniacal" as fundamentally flawed. Without this desire there would be no human race! |
there are too many humans as it is. how many more do we need? don't worry about humanity perpetuating itself...thanks to everybody's insistence upon replicating themselves over & over again, there are more than plenty of people around. it's a surplus of nature that just hasn't followed natural law & been culled out yet. unless somebody's won the nobel prize recently or found the cure for cancer, their genes probably aren't especially worth a shit...or at least, they're not any more valuable than the town drunk's, or the genes of the average crack whore. & even then, it's questionable. a nobel prize winner could spawn the next hitler, or a kid w/ cerebral palsy. it's all a biological crapshoot. i knew a lady once who was oh-so-fucking-proud of her genetic material. just had to pass it along. her entire world fell apart when her beautiful genes spawned a kid w/ flippers for arms & the IQ of a lettuce leaf. i DO feel that prizing one's genetics is egomaniacal, or at the very least, deluded. but that's just my opinion. |
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"That matter? about a thousand." For me anyway, probably 80% of my neighborhood could dissappear and nothing would be affected. Except maybe the city crack trade. All these useless fucks sitting around all day, unemployed, living meaningless existences, sucking up my tax money, raising the crime rate. and having fucking babies. I don't see how they do it. I have friends who have one kid, both parents work at decent jobs and they're like tight as hell for cash. All the fucks in my neighborhood have like six kids running around in the yard, calling each other "bitch", while they sit in the front yard with their mother and aunt-E's smoking Newports and drinking colt 45. fucking maddening. their aught to be a law. |
And where do you folks live where all these people are so horrible to their kids? One summer I worked for the children's aid society and even most of those parents had *some* redeeming qualities (not all the kids were abused by their own families). I think some people only see what they want to see... which is fine, but that's not the whole picture. Some kids are bad, and some kids are good - most are ok, with bad moments, but then again, same goes for adults. To get back to the original issue, though - overpopulation is not a problem in Australia (well, it depends on your perspective, but from our nice western one... it's not). There's tonnes of land and resources, so the government isn't funding overpopulation, so they shouldn't be limiting lesbian and single women if they're providing the service. |
where are people NOT mean to children? one of the many reasons i don't want kids is because childhood was such a screaming nightmare that i don't ever want to subject another human being to it. & i've seen way too many kids w/ blood & bruises on them from beatings. i'm having a hard time thinking of any of my school friends who hadn't been raped by their fathers, uncles, or brothers. to me, childhood equals cruelty, abandonment, beatings, burns, rape & powerlessness. above all, powerlessness. i have a few happy memories of childhood, but in damn near all of them, i was alone, not being bothered by others. adults abuse & condescend; other children tease & bully. childhood is a no-win situation. if you think i'm going to put another soul through that, you're crazy. i guess there's a planet somewhere, far far away, where mommies fix cookies for their kids when they come home from school & give them great big hugs & let them while the hours away in safe, carefree play. if you know where that planet is, let's round up all the kiddies right now & send them there. |
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shit ain't like that. you know? |
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They phrased the wording of the law so it could potentially bar de facto couples from IVF, as well as single women and lesbians. Here's an excerpt from a news story: -------- The Federal Government will move to fix a problem in the wording of its reproductive technology legislation, which could have left the way open for states to ban de facto couples from accessing IVF programs. The Government's legislation, tabled in Parliament this week, was designed to ban lesbians and single women from IVF but would also have allowed discrimination on the basis of a couple's marital status. Attorney-General Daryl Williams says the Government will put forward an amendment to ensure women living in a de facto relationship with a man could not be denied access to reproductive technology services. The Shadow Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, says the Government will have difficulties fixing the legislation. "It's very, very hard to see how," he said. "They're going to have to draft an exemption from an exemption, and then supposing that they include in this exemption a changed definition of de facto status, is it going to be a Commonwealth definition or a state definition?" Earlier, Prime Minister John Howard denied de facto couples could be affected by the proposed changes to the Sex Discrimination Act. Mr Howard told commercial radio the legislation was aimed at single and lesbian women only and de facto couples had nothing to fear. "The intention is not in any way to make a judgement in relation to these practices as between married women and those living in a bona fide de facto relationship," Mr Howard said. "The critics know that this is an attempt by the Labor Party to divert attention from considerable differences of opinion within the Labor Party." -------- Love that line about de facto couples having nothing to fear. When rights are taken away from a minority, everyone should get nervous. |
But most people strongly feel a biological urge to reproduce. It's natural. What's more, it's natural to want your own children. Personally, I'm not into IVF because it's not natural. Like someone posted before, if you're infertile, there's probably a good reason for it. This is mainly the issue with heterosexual couples, though, since it's not infertility that would bring a lesbian woman to want IVF. This thread has led me to believe that all children ought to be taken out of Arkansas! I work with kids every day in Brooklyn, and most are not abused. Abuse is (lamentably) not rare, it's horrible and it happens a lot, but that's no reason to question why some people want to have kids. Wanting kids is normal. Wanting your *own* kids is also normal. Not wanting kids because you don't want to put them through hell because you live in a bad situation or fear perpetuating abuse is also normal (and really great). Unfortunatly, most people don't think about that. The weakest person is always picked on, it's true. People suck! Children ought to be loved and cared for - the way some of you make it sound, though, no children anywhere are cared for, and those who think they might be able to care for kids are wrong and stupid! Maybe so... kids are hard, and expensive, and no guarantee that they'll care for you in your old age, yet people persist in having them. Go figure. I have a friend who doesn't believe in marriage (as something to celebrate - a wedding)... Fine, I say, but there must be something to it. Otherwise, why would people all over the place be doing it? Or fighting for the right to do it? It can't just be for tax purposes. Just because he can't see the value doesn't mean there isn't any. Same goes for having kids. I try to understand why someone might want to, and why they might prefer to have their own, even if I don't see it for myself. |
a lot of people do feel the biological urge to have kids. i don't. i'm not sure that i feel "unnatural" for not feeling it. i'm just not wired that way. you spoke about marriage...i don't especially believe in it, myself (paradoxically, yes, i'm married...we had no ceremony whatsoever & it wasn't your typical sort of thing). we spent no money to get married & i didn't gush over stupid notions of "romance" or obsess on ridiculous bridal magazines (ugh). at one point, we held hands on a park bench & said we'd be nice to each other...those were, i suppose, the wedding vows, made a couple of weeks after the subgenius minister filed the papers. we pretty much view our wedding licence as a hilarious document from the state granting us permission to fuck. how generous. on the whole, i think that getting married or having kids just because it's "natural" & everybody else is doing it is a piss-poor excuse. screw the bandwagon...folks need to think for themselves. "everybody else is doing it" doesn't cut it. i feel that lesbian women should be able to get these IVF treatments if the state is handing them out (i can't imagine why they would, though). i also feel that if straight people can get married, so should gays. what's fair for one is fair for the other. |
And again, you're absolutly right Crimson, most people don't think enough about having kids before they have them, or enough about getting married before they do that. It's a shame. It's great that you are so much better than these people. More people ought to be like you. I don't have kids (and don't want them, even though I kind of LIKE them) and I doubt that I'll ever get married. Just because I don't want any of this stuff doesn't mean that no one else ought to. Sure, there's lots of suffering to be seen around, especially if that's all you look for. I also never said that people ought to have kids because everyone else is, or even just because one can. I was simply trying to explain what it might be that drives most people to want kids and to have them. It's tragic that it's precisely the people who shouldn't be having squadrons of kids who do, but since procreation is a right and not a priviledge, seems we've got to live with this. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it wrong, either. |
uhhhhhhhhhhhh |
And, Crimson, like the others I think it's great that you're reasons for not having kids is solid and very responsible. But, who are you to decide who should have children? I know its extremely frustrating, seeing some people pop out kids when they shouldn't, but once we have any sector of society, whether government or not, telling people "You can have kids...you can't" it somply gives them too much power. As long as a government is providing healthcare for all of it's citizens, it is morally bound to treat them all equally. By telling some people, "Your children shouldn't exist" they're in effect saying, "You shouldn't exist. We're just willing for you to die of natural causes to get rid of you." That's not the government's choice to make. |
i'm just trying to communicate. that about covers it. i don't personally think that people should be having so many kids. but so what? what i think, sitting here at a computer in arkansas, hardly influences world affairs. let the world breed itself silly. they're doing it already. all my happy-thoughts & best wishes for instant global infertility don't make a damn. relax. i'm just a benign nut who's typing words into cyberspace. i'm not hitler, & i'm not going around performing involuntary sterilizations. i'm just a lone soul & a loose cannon w/ a few ideas that were (& are) considered weird. no big deal. it's a passionate topic for me, but who cares? opinions are a dime a dozen. i've stated mine, & probably to the point of nausea. i'm just one person. i'm not issuing global mandates & public policy. it's just my opinion. my one wish is that i were more articulate, so i could state my position better & make people understand what i'm trying to say. |
I can't have kids. I've known this since I was 16. My mother still thinks I'm going to have them. ("I think I would make a great grandmother," she says to me. Not to my brother, for some reason, just to me.) How this is supposed to happen, I don't know. I don't believe in IVF or surrogate motherhood or fertility drugs or anything else like that. Whatever. I sense sometimes that I'm not supposed to talk about my infertility. Like I'm supposed to be ashamed of it, like I'm less of a woman because I can't spawn. I think that's fucked. I don't want kids, either. I'm trying to figure out if I *really* don't want them, or if I've just convinced myself this since learning I can't (a sour grapes-type thing). I do know that if I see someone strolling a baby and walking a dog, I coo over the dog. And I've heard my mother's stories of morning sickness and 16- and 18-hour labors too many times for pregnancy to appeal to me. I'd make a good aunt. I like kids. I had a pretty happy childhood, and a lot of that had to do with my aunts, who would take me places and do things with me that my parents wouldn't. (Tangent: I just got a postcard from one aunt saying, "know that there is always someone who believes in you, loves you and is thinking about you" -- those are the kind of aunts I have.) Being an aunt is cool because you can do fun stuff with little kids and (in my experience, anyway) when they get to be teenagers, they respect your opinion more than their parents'. And they're always happy to see you. That sounds like my kind of life. |
My pain would probably go away eventually, and my leg would probably heal without crutches and plasters (though possibly badly). My feeling is, if someone cannot breed without medical intervention, there is probably a good reason for it. If I were infertile, I think I would chose to live with it rather than fight it... that's all. If other people want to fight it, then that's their prerogative. As I've said before, I completely understand why someone would want to have his or her own (genetically speaking) children and would want IVF... it's just MY OPINION that if a person is infertile (or a couple) that likely there is a good reason for it. I also think that people should THINK before they have kids. The fact that they are expensive shouldn't be a deterrant as much as one's own ability to be patient and loving. Sometimes you don't know until it's too late (i.e. you've had the kid and find that they are too much for you). That's a shame. On this issue, people ought to be more introspective. But they aren't. This means we have to count on old-fashioned methods to reduce population, like starvation. I don't like it much myself. |
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But then, I've just never been big on "things happen for a reason" regarding anything. Things happen. Some really bad things happen. Sometimes good comes from it, but often just really bad shit happens, and bad things follow. Also, I'm a touch cranky today. Apologies. |
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anyway, there are plenty of folks who can't stand kids. for instance: http://jaznor.tripod.com/vitriol.html & here's a whole message board full of them: http://www.fred.net/turtle/kids/kidrants.shtml (the board looks kind of lame at the moment, but it definitely picks up, w/ thousands of hits during peak hours...& if they're bitching about "sprogs", they mean kids. the board kind of has a jargon all its own). anyway, not everybody has to like kids. my only hope is that if someone is aware & together enough to realize that they don't like children, that they'll have the sense not to have any. there are far too many child-haters who DID have kids. you can see them in action every day of the week. |
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Fucking yard apes. that kills me. |
But he was ALWAYS out there. Good ol' redheaded yard boy. |
Adults don't have to like kids, but face it, if a kid is cruel, it's because that's what the kid has gotten from the world so far. The kid will likely grow up to be a cruel adult... and that brings me back to an earlier statement: People suck. |
i personally want to not get married to isolde and live in a little house with no children and two manx cats. |
There used to be this really irritating girl in our neighborhood who had red hair. we called her the red headed girl. we used to sing this song about her, i can't remember it all but one line was that "the red headed girl is satans daughter" she strolled up on us one time as we were smoking some pot at our local youth angst hangout. she was probably three or four years younger than us. she was like "why are your eyes so red?" my friend replied, "Bitch, why's your hair red?" we found this incredibly amusing. probably because our eyes were red. oh yeah, the rest of the song was just a drone of repeating "kill the redheaded girl, kill the redheaded girl, kill the redheaded girl, killtheredheadedgirlkilltheredheadedgirlkilltheredheadedgirlkilltheredheadedgirl" ahhh youth. yard apes. |
i think it's fucked up to say that one hates kids. first of all, that is a huge sweeping generalization. kids are all different. i like some kids and don't like others, just the same as i like some adults and don't like others. i feel that a statement like, "i hate kids" is no better than a statement like, "i hate women" or, "i hate queers" or insert whatever ethnic group here. there is also the obvious fact that kids constitute a major portion of the population, which would make it difficult to avoid them. and, of course, we were all kids once. at any rate, choosing not to have children is generally a wise choice, but saying that you hate children sounds ignorant as hell to me. that oughta piss some people off. i wish i were more eloquent, but fuckit. |
I just heard that India's population has joined China's at the over-1 billion mark. Now, assuming that the earth has a maximum capacity, how many IVF babies does the world really need? I saw a special on 20/20, I think, saying that the Chinese don't believe in adoption. Many of the people they talked to had never even thought of it, because there are such strong ties to family lines and honor in geneology. Singapore should set up an adopt-a-kid program with China or India. I'm afraid of the idea of paying people to have kids. |
i hate brussels sprouts. i hate the backstreet boys. i hate loud, obnoxious people. i hate almost every Top 10 country song i've ever heard. i hate a lot of shit, but it ultimately isn't a threat against humanity. many times, when childfree people say that they "hate" children, they usually mean that they hate pro-natalist (breeder) culture, where EVERYTHING is geared toward parents n' kids. for instance, how many times can this year's crop of politicos utter the words "family" & "children"? news flash: fucking kids aren't the ones voting. & what are the politicians offering the rest of the adult population...the ones who didn't spawn? ever notice how when there's a major accident or disaster, the news anchor will almost always give the death count in terms of children (55 adults perished in the blaze...but thankfully, no children were injured!) & then there's all this insulting talk of "families", which completely leaves childfree families out in the cold. THAT is what CF (childfree) folks usually mean when they say they "hate" kids. they actually hate the kid-worshipping culture around them. on that rant board i gave a link to, you'd be surprised at how many "child-haters" are appalled by the way people treat their kids & are deeply concerned for them. as for it being like racism, i don't even think so. not for a moment. again, it's like not enjoying the presence of dogs, cats, rodents or frat boys. some people don't like kids. even if it WERE like racism, people still have the right to express an unpopular opinion. a person can say, for instance, that they hate white folks all day long...it's their right to do so. you can say that in this country, last time i checked. where they might fuck up is when they start hanging whitey from every lamppost in town. then maybe there's a problem. people can say they "hate" kids all day long. they can hate whatever they like, as long as they don't cross the line into harm. i've never heard of a childfree person hurting a kid. in fact, they're often rescuing the damn things from parents who let them wander into harm's way. i didn't mean to post anything controversial. i thought i was done w/ this thread, but i didn't want to see anyone jumping on another poster just because they said they couldn't stand kids. i wanted to lend a bit of support. it's OK. it's no big deal. |
if i have a soft spot for kids, it's for the older ones. the small, cute ones are a lot more likely to get help, w/ the older ones being completely forgotten. i like the forgotten ones. i'll admit that i like certain types of teens. i like rebels. i like INTELLIGENT rebels. i like wiseasses. i've taken teenagers into my home on multiple occasions. i like goth kids. i like freaky kids. i like kids who can damn well think. unfortunately, the act of thinking usually turns a young person (or anyone else) into an instant misfit. parents, teachers, other kids, & society in general drops the ball when it comes to teens. i like subverting young minds. i don't like toddlers & young children, though. they make me extremely nervous. they also can't read "the communist manifesto" & make their families squirm. i like turning kids into leftist maniacs. teenagers can be more fun than a barrel of goddamn monkeys. & they need love. tons of it, which of course, i'm always willing to provide. i've had teens turn around & kick me in the teeth, after i've helped them. kids who steal. kids who fuck up. but if the right soul were to come along again, i'd help out. teens are often the most forgotten of all youth. i like certain types of teens. i also like certain types of geriatrics. perhaps i can help them while everybody else is knocking themselves out to help the wee little shits who are oh-so-cute. i tend to like people after the expiration date for "cute" has already passed. |
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i can get pretty damn passionate about certain issues. one of the many reasons i can get passionate about child-related issues is because i was an unwanted kid myself. multiple adoptions, getting dumped & abandoned, getting raped, beaten & burned by adults...i KNOW, on a firsthand basis, what people are capable of doing to children. this is why i'm so adamant that many people would be better off not bringing new people into the world. there are a lot of twisted, cruel, sadistic fucks out there. i've lived w/ my share of them, back when i was a minor & couldn't escape. i help people when i can. my heart tends to go out to forgotten souls. i'm not w/o compassion. in fact, i have so much compassion that it makes an instant sucker out of me. this is a personality trait i share w/ pilate, which makes us tight friends. we're bretheren in suckerdom. at the moment, i'm sitting here feeling kind of sappy. you know, peaceful & all that crap. so i'm wishing everybody peace & happiness. even the kids. hell, even the little ones still in their mama's belly. everybody. peace on earth & goodwill toward everything that creepeth upon it. no restrictions. peace & happiness & rose-colored glasses for all. even for me. if i ever find a pair of rose-colored glasses that fits my worldview, i'll probably never take them off. |
Children. I hate the way women and children are grouped together. "12 men perished today, along with 32 women and children." What the hell? I am not a child, I am a woman, and I want my own separate death toll, dammnit! I don't like that we are lumped together that way. Of course I would never hurt a child--having a baby is a personal choice, and it is not my place to comment on it. I feel sorry for children brought into bad situations and raised badly and treated even worse, but for someone who has a happy, healthy, child, it's not my business. Of course I would save a child in danger or protect a child from injury--just like I would any adult. If I see someone beating on someone (literally or metaphorically, it doesn't matter), I'm going going to step forward. It is my duty to the human race. But I, personally, will not raise children. My choice. Even if I was able to have them. I like children who are older and well-behaved. Not necessarily the oft-touted "forgotten age" but any age. I've met some very intelligent 8 year olds, for example, whom I'm happy to chill with, since they're like adults. But I've also met some very childish 17 year olds. I just like people who understand how to conduct themselves in a courteous fashion. Only I am allowed to be rude. |
if you d things because it's dictated by the crowd, it's stupid. but standing out takes a lot of energy. i almost gave up several times. it's better now. i hate crowds, even if i want to be a celebrity, i still hate crowds. |
I don't think that it's really "infertility" if you are using the Manx cat example. It's genetic disorders, sure, but either cat is otherwise fertile. I think genetic incompatibility is a term that is better suited. As far as genetics and infertility goes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for infertility to be a genetic trait. I mean, think about it. |
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I know which one I reckon is the more natural mother. |
I'm not into marriage, either. I didn't mean to bash anyone for *saying* "I don't like kids" or "I don't like (any group of people)." Just the lack of love in that post... wow. I know this one guy who claims that his mission / purpose in life is to be compassionate and spread happiness... but the things I hear most out of him are "I just don't like her" or "that's just DUMB." I'm having real problems with human nature today. speaking of genetics, it's pretty much built in that we find the offspring of our species cute / fun / good / worthy of love. and how did you guys know that I have a manx? seriously, now, this is getting creepy. |
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http://www.torturechamber.com/agatha/fashionshow.html http://www.torturechamber.com/agatha/petparade.html |
Until birth control & abortion are paid for by gov't. funded health care (i.e. our tax dollars) I don't want to see my tax dollars going to help narcissistic women -- single/straight/lesbian/ whatever -- get knocked up. In the U.S.of A. a 50-yr-old man can get Viagra @ $12 per pill & his insurance will cover it/but the same insurer won't cover birth control pills for the 20-yr-old girl who's trying to be responsible about her sexuality.??? What is THAT about? There are a bazillion kids already in the world that anyone whose *really* abt raising a child (vs. "having the experience of pregnancy & childbirth"/which are the least of it) can adpot. There are not-for-profit organizations out there that don't want a fotune to handle the process. I have precious little sympathy for these couples &/or single women who spend tens of thousands of dollars on IVF. Twenty-five yrs. ago/they wd've opened their hearts & been happy to adopt a child/when that was the only choice they had. The fact that so much of science in this country is profit-driven has given women all these choices in terms of "assisted fertility". But I suspect that a lot of America's problems come from having too many choices... Fertility is not an inalienable right. Mother nature doesn't promise anybody anything. Being infertile is not a life-threatening illness & treating it shdn't be covered by insurance until b.c. & abortion are also covered. For everybody. But I'm sure it's also partially a cultural thing for me. Every time I see those women on 20-20 or Nightline they are always w/out exception White women. And I tend to get a little p.o'd in general by Whitefolks-at-large & their attitude that they own the world & have the right to any & every thing they want/so long as they can pay for it. And if they can't/their insurance shd pay for it. "We can send men to the moon. If the technology is available for me to get pregnant, don't I have a have a right to have a baby -- no matter how much it costs!" Puleeze! Stop whinng/accept what yr body can't do/ & find a homeless child to adpot. Which will not not necessarily be a child that looks like you. Plus I have a sickening feeling that 20 yrs. from now/it's going to come out that these high doses of Pergonal & other drugs they pump women with to boost ovulation will turn out to be carcinogenic in the extreme. Or that the drugs have created 2nd-generation infertility in the offspring they spent so much $$ conceiving. But y'know/that's just me. |
I think that if I had become a sociologist instead of an anthropologist, i would have liked to have done a study of the rates of adoption between people who identify themselves as pro-life vs. those who identify themselves as pro-choice. I would also like to compare adoption rates in the 86% of counties in this nation where you can't get an abortion vs. the 14% where you still can. i bet it's been done, if I thought of it. |
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it's an argument i could embrace if i were completely devoid of compassion, because i do believe that people need to recognize that the world is an inherently cruel place and should plan accordingly. but i sure as hell wouldn't have any part in punishing a child for the mistakes of the mother, even if that mistake was the child's very existence. and sem, i’m pretty sure that study has been done before because I know i’ve either read or heard about it’s publication. either on NPR or in the NYT book review section. i’ll let it stew in my head and see if I can’t cough up a link. anyway. when AOL/TWX/ATT completes their final merger with the U.S. government and this entire fucked-up planet is owned and operated by one big-ass blind idiot multi-conglomerate corporation, all of these concerns will be moot business. healthcare will become a commodity attainable only to the rich while the poor will wither and die in designated low-income zones. by then adoption will be obsolete. motherfuckers (and fatherfuckers too!) will be taking trips to McWalmart’s to order up some tasty genetically engineered heirs to insure the propagation of their foul DNA and their familial standing as stockholders of The Company. yup. so that’s the future. motherfuckers, fatherfuckers, flying cars, and genetically engineered three-eyed fish. you’re gonna love it. trust me. |
Oh darling it's important that you believe me bop bop bop that it can't happen heeerrree..... |
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i'd like to have a paper dress. totally bitchin. cleo doesn't have any front teeth. heeee. kids are so cool. kel, i don't think you and dave could have come up with a cuter gene combo if you tried. she's just adorable. i bet she's really smart too. but dude, trucker's flower outfit takes the cake for sure. the leggings are the best part. what a hoot! |
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