Should Gore give in and hand over the big house without a whimper? Or do you think he should be fighting it in the courts? Do you even care after three weeks of non-stop bickering? I'm tending towards Gore falling on his sword and claiming he's making the sacrifice for the stability of the country. But what do I know?

Hey, the less stable they can make our country, the better. Let's hang a big sign on one seacoast: PLEASE INVADE US. DOES anyone care anymore? I never gave a rats ass for who won... but this outcome is everything I ever could have hoped for, short of Nader winning. I do have to question Gore's strategy, of course. While the legal challenges in Florida are one front, and one that my prevail, if I were him, I would be spending plenty of time propagandizing about "the will of the people" and the fact that he won the popular vote. Either way, I think that this election will wake a lot of people up to the stupidity of this system, and Nader's chunk of the liberal vote may remind the Dems that they need to get more to the left of the political spectrum, where they came from. None of this middle of the road "centrist" crap.

the republicans and the democrats are both centrist. at least the ones who get elected are. maybe because the country is centrist and the elected officials have to reflect that. if things are going to swing to the right or to the left, it will happen with baby steps. it's no wonder the likes of nader or buchanan can't get the support of the country. it's not because of federal funding, it's because their swan-dive-into-extremism approach is something the country can't get behind, at least not on election day. besides, they're both such obviously total assholes. if that's the best alternative the third parties have to offer, they're doomed. (personally, i like hagelin and i didn't vote at all. shhhhh.) as for the recount thing, i think the whole goddam country should be hand recounted, even if it takes as long as january to get it done. in my view, this election is a farce unless they do that. if it goes to the supreme court, i think they'd have to either refuse to take the case or order a national recount. anything else and they'd be accused of more or less choosing their future colleagues. i don't care if either bush or gore win, i just want the winner to win. i believe the winner would be gore. fuck no, he shouldn't concede. that's bullshit.

Gore should keep going for as long as it takes. It sickens me that 60% of the country believes the stinking pile of shit arguments that the Bush campaign puts out. Hand counts are biased? Several state congressional races in TEXAS were decided by hand counts this year. If the hand count was done in Florida as it is mandated by TEXAS LAW, then Gore would be the president elect now. But Bush didn't want to follow the standard of law that he signed himself in 1997. Want to know why? It's because most of the republican controlled counties in Florida use optical scan ballots while most democratic controlled counties use punch card ballots. Optical scan has around a 1-2% error rate while punch cards have a 4-5% error rate. Interesting, sin't it. So, if the entire state was recounted by hand, Gore would probably have come out on top, especially given the closeness of the race. So Gore should not concede. Besides, any party that would hire it's own campaign workers and congressional staffers to be a mob and have them storm a state government building should NOT be in control of the country.

blah blah fucking blah. After 20 days of recounts, the outcome stays the same. The certification has been done, democracy has prevailed, now shut up your fucking thumsucking, bed wetting, WHINING ASS, motherfucking mouth. I can tell you that us conservitives have had it, we have been tolerant long enough, with all your tree hugging, bleeding heart "ITS NOT FAIR" bull shit. shit down and shut the fuck up! And stop trying to sue your way through life, or have it handed to you. FACE IT PEOPLE, GORE HAS LOST! HE LOST ON THE 8TH, THEN ON THE RECOUNT, THEN ON THE HAND RECOUNT, THEN ON THE HAND RECOUNT AGAIN, AND THEN ON THE 26TH. If you need Jesse Jackson to plead your case, I feel sorry for you. I think that speaks for itself. And as for the "Butterfly Ballot" issue, has anyone stopped to think that (I saw this on the local news just a few days after the original election, and suddenly it went away) the ballots that were rejected durring the original count were added to the exact same box as the ones the voters gave back to the election officials to request new ones? How many votes were counted twice? Can anyone please define the word "is"? Hey, about another four years of that bullshit?

I am back and I am pissed

apparently it doesn't trouble you that you might go through the hassle of registering and then voting only to have your ballot overlooked. are you sure yours was counted? fuck no, you can't be now. no one can. but it doesn't matter as long as "dubya" makes it in. now we have 4 more years to listen to his moronic little speeches. did you actually listen to his pathetic speech the other day. jesus fucking christ, my daughter can read with more emotion than he can. well, whatever. al gore could kick dubya's ass in a fight. shit, so could hilary clinton.

I wonder why Gore didn't want those over seas military ballots counted?

Granted I know it will never happen, but wouldn't it be nice if.... This didn't get settled till Jan. 15, and it came down to congress appointing a president. And because both parties were so fucking pissed at Gore and Bush, that they just put Nader in office.... Oh to dream.

What ever, I had to put up with Clintons shit for 8 years. How do these idiots know that thier votes were not counted?????? See. you have pointed out the biggest problem. Who the hell really knows whos vote was counted and who fucked up their balot? NO ONE DOES, even the almighty supreme court. How about ever? Do you know if your vote was ever counted correctly? No. That is part of the package. It has been this way for the last 2 1/2 centuries. Only this time, the results in Florida were less then .5% different, so by law the recount was done, and Bush won the recount. But, by gosh, the numbers were different. Well, no shit sherlock. You are never going to get the same numbers twice. But, the outcome was unchanged. Oh, and why invalidate any of the overseas ballots?

you SHOULD get the same numbers twice. count them all accurately. the whole fucking country. get it right and then no one can bitch about whose ballots should be ignored. is that so fucking much to ask? this is rarely an issue because the race is rarely this close but when it is, make every vote count. otherwise, why bother counting them at all? maybe we should just let the pollsters decide. they have about the same accuracy margin.

davem did you just call Nader extremist? Man, that's what comes of living in a centrist country. Nice young men like Mr. Nader somehow become the political equivalent of Sacco and Vanzetti.

my point was that he's extreme relative to the rest of the country, especially the elected officials. i do think he's an asshole by any measure, and that's a good thing for a consumer advocate but a really shitty thing for a diplomat.

The overseas military ballots area red herring, J. They weren't counted because they didn't have postmarks on them. By the same standard, ANY Florida resident who still has an absentee ballot could fill it out RIGHT NOW and have it counted as long as they wrote a date before November 7th on the ballot. And, besides, the numbers of them were miniscule, like 50 out of 1000 ballots that were rejected for the same reason. The republicans using the military in that way is, in my opinion, the most shameful action of this whole fiasco. As for you, Trace, we all know that you can eat shit, so ya might as well get munchin'.

You're pissed, Trace? Does that mean you're going to get pay a bunch of your friends to come to this board and intimidate us into shutting up? C'mon! Follow your leaders' example! Be the mob, baby!

i buy that dave.....asshole or not....i dont think the country is ready....and yes both canidates are centrist and inclusive....they need everyone they can get. This much is obvious trace. use your brain boy.Saying "stop whining" "sore looser" "im sick of 8 years of bullshit" etc. does not validate a presidency. And the vote in florida is hardly valid. Ballots were not counted, even recounts were tossed aside. the discretion of a biased Secretary of State has ignored votes. J, i think Gore wanted the military votes counted, i think it was Bush's people that sought NOT to count the ones without postmarks..... "I had to put up with clinton for 8 years" further invalidates your argument, as it seems the noxious blather out of your mouths sounds vindictive, rather than based on logic. If the role were reversed...do not question for one minute that your idiot of a canidate would be doing the EXACT same thing Gore is doing....do not question this....its not debatable. The counts, recounts and hand counts have not been accurate from day one because of discrepencies on which ballots should be counted, confusion on whether or not the hand recounts would be counted at all, and intimidation from republican interns posing as angry floridians. ...HELL even your Bush people have said they are not accurate....and thats why they didnt want them in the first place right...but Dubya TRUSTS the people right? No one needs Jesse to plead anyone's case....Jesse doeswhat jesse does...im willing to bet the Dems didnt even invite him to get involved...but he has a way of sticking his crazy ass in the middle of things. Thats rhetoric Trace. Also, talk about sueing...your Bush people have just as many suits going on...sueing a way through life....your man is just as guilty. Again James Baker rhetoric....Trace think for yourself man! Watching local news does you no good, and hardly serves a s sturdy (soap)box to stand on man. Especially middle america....i can only imagine what the local news is like there. Tom what are you talking about man......Anarchist cook book is for cooking silly

oh....so yes...i think a manual recount should have been done from the get go.....but the legal wrangling has stalled it, started, stalled it, started it and put is in the crunch we are in. fuck deadines...BIll can hold the fort down while they get this straight. i think it clear that that battle axe of secretary of state and the guvna in Fl have imposed a serious conflict of interest.

What ever. How many "mobs" have the Republicans incited in the past 100 years? Aren't we usually quiet about these things? Besides, it all boils down to this: "I am going to sue to be made the president of the united states". ??????? Democracy? Or supreme dictatorship? But, when you look at the options, I hope Gore wins. I would rather he won by law suit and his presidency always under that cloud then Bush winning with the cloud of "not counted" votes.... Regardless of who wins, they loose. The system is broken. I am not happy with any lawsuits that the replicans are filing, nor am I happy that this is ending up in front of the supreme court. Do you honestly beleive this is the first time this has ever happened? No. It has only come to light because of the close vote in FL and the media calling the state for gore before the polls were even closed. Did you notice the ticker during the election, 44% gore, 54% bush and they declared gore the winner? But, hey, since Jeb is the governor, it must be a consipiracy. And, oh my god the sec of state is a republican in a state where the governor is a replublican! must mean a conspiracy. Who's been under a cloud of crap for 8 years? renting rooms out in the white house for campaign funds, inventing the internet, hating big tabacco when his family is one of the largest tabacco farmes in Tennessee? Oh, I know, it must be the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy". Law is law, period. Deadlines are law, and so are recounts. But, FL law does not specify much at all about the manner of how the recount is to be handled, so we are left with this mess. And far as Bill was concerened, the mother fucker got on national tv, waved his finger at the camera, looked straight at the american people and LIED! He embarrassed us, he embarressed the office of the presidency, and if you say who cares, then move the fuck out of the US, and go some where else, because I am tired of the apathy

I listen to NPR and talk radio, and btw, rhetoric is all i hear spewing from your all's mouth as well

Lest we all lose sense of what it's really all about: "Will to Live" I feel miserable Asses numbed by collision with doorknobs make me ill I feel miserable Fingers stained with Nicotine tear at my foundations I feel miserable Gadflies to the state are dragging me down to the depths of misery I want to die Is it because of Being accused of unthinking wussy leftist rhetoric by someone I don't know that I feel this way? With the redwhiteandbluemotherfucker rays of misery pounding on my brain? Or am I lost in tale of francis scott motherfucking key, adrift far from home I don't think so, I don't think so. Trace Broke My Will to Live Trace Broke My Will to Live Trace Broke My Will to Live I was getting better but then Trace Broke My Will to Live I feel miserable Imperial presidencies as legacies of Richard Milhous Nixon (a republican) rot the flesh from my bones I feel miserable People who don't know the difference between personal ethics, individual character and appropriate legislation defeat my purpose I feel miserable Dumbasses are doing their best to impale my soul I want to die Is it because of Being accused of unthinking wussy leftist rhetoric by someone I don't know that I feel this way? With the redwhiteandbluemotherfucker rays of misery pounding on my brain? Am I lost in tale of francis scott motherfucking key, adrift far from home I don't think so, I don't think so. Trace Broke My Will to Live Trace Broke My Will to Live Oh God, Trace Broke My Will to Live I was getting better but then Trace Broke My Will to Live Oh, yeah, baby. http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-alanislyrics.html

I love it....

Revotes, gores, clintons Why God, Why? Gores, recounts, democrats Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this red horror? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of democrats Like a edgar allen poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? Cigars, revotes, lewinski's Why God, Why? Democrats, lewinski's, clintons Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this red disaster that is my life? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of democrats Like a edgar allen poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this red misery? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of democrats Like a edgar allen poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why?

dude, don't be silly and stop taking the moral highroad. If you were caught cheating, chances are you would lie too...... who said this trace? "I am going to sue to be made the president of the united states". And if you think this happend because of how the media called the election on election night....do i need to remind who works for Fox News and was calling the shots for the election that night...a Bush clansman..... but thats really niether here or there. How many mobs have the republicans incited? That depends......shall we include pro-life mobs threatening the lives of abortion clinic doctors?? Thats a pointless argument....as to whether they have done it in the past....point is, they did it here, now. The only people Clinton embarrassed are the middle american moral majority who blush at the term penis. Most of America trace thinks it was a non issue to begin with....he didnt embarrass anyone except you. And maybe the rest of us because the world thought us to be a bunch of puritanical hypocrites condemning the prez for something many politicians (and americans) have done since day one. Hell they live in washington, thousands of miles away from their families, they are home once every 2 weeks when in session....sleeping around is gonna happen...to try and impeach a prez for it is whats embarrassing. Moreover....i say 4 more years and 1 more impeachment trial....the only results i saw from the impeachement were two hardline republicans quitting....if we can do that again, get 2 more hard assed repubs...say Strom and Jesse to quit.... 4 more years is worth it. Trace when you realize that politicans will be politicans, you will be less of a target for media blitzs....taking such bait as you have indicated here. "Renting" rooms for campaign funds is nothing new...and you can bet your last dollar many republicans have done it in the past....many of the things Clinton and Gore got nailed for were nothing new....the sooner you realize that your republicans are no more or less clean than the dems, the more logical you might be about this. The right wing consipracy part comes from the fact that many beleive the right wingers took Watergate out on the Clintons...Hilary was a junior attorney in the impeachment doings...perhaps the repubs felt it time to take it out, get revenge. Politicans do many slimy things repub OR dem....to simply overule it because you tend to favor republicant positions on issues is illogical and naive on your part. wake up man, get your head out of your ass.

oh and uhhh....stop smiling cat you war monger

trace, do you really think that if it was bush who won the national popular vote except lost in a state where his opponent's brother was governor; where the secretary of state was, what, the opponent's campaign manager for that state; where counties weren't given sufficient time to do bipartisan-observed manual recounts; etc.; that he would just say, ok, whatever. anyone who doesn't realize that the other side would be acting the exact same way is totally naive.

What's really funny is that Gore did in fact have a hand in getting the internet as we know up and running. I was watching Clinton pardoning the Turkey wednesday and I wondered what would Prince George do in the same situation? Considering that he is unaware of what "pardon" means. He's probably gonna have that turkey deep-fried. Ithikn it is sort of suspicious that the secretary of state was so quick to certify, but not because she's republican. Because she was an active Bush campaigner. Whenthe mob of angry white guys (republicans) stormed the office, I also was wondering. Where was the tear gas? The pepper spray? Oh, I forgot. They only use that on liberals. Maybe, Trace, you should take some time and read the open letter to Bush on Michael Moore's site: www.michaelmoore.com I especially think the points about him being functionally illiterate are important.

I was embarassed by Clinton. Not by his sexual pecadillos, but by his perjury. The highest official in a country ruled by laws? How humiliating for me as an american. I am not facetious. I don't care who he fucked, I don't care about any of that and I find it completely irrelevant. But the motherfucker lied under oath. So, no, it's not a non-issue.

gore did not win his own state of tennessee.... You can say that all you want, but most states were very close, maybe not .5%, but still very close. Do you beleive that bush only won the states where the governor was republican? do you beleive that gore only won the states where the governor was a democrat? who's niave? who's eating the rhetorical bullshit now? IF I HAVE SAID IT ONCE, I HAVE SAID IT A HUNDRED TIMES: The Oval Office is not a private office, and what you do in there is not a private affair, and who you do it with (an intern, there to learn how government works) is not private. If he did a hooker in a hotel, I would not give a shit, and would not expect him to come on national tv to talk about it.

do you really think that monica lewinsky was there to learn how the government works (not just to meet important people who might be able to help her land a really cush job somewhere)? the governor of florida is not just republican, but he's bush's brother. and wasn't the secretary of state george bush's campaign manager in florida? I thought I heard that somewhere. I don't know how anyone could fail to see the potential for bias there. none of us gets to make any big decisions about this election. we're not supreme court justices. we can all talk like rational human beings. I don't see the point in pretending that either candidate is taking the high road. it's ridiculous.

(and I don't really see what the oval office building or property or whatever has to do with it. the white house is public property, too, does that mean no screwing allowed? I heard he ate pizza in there too. doesn't sound like official business to me. I don't think he broke any laws or anything until he lied about it by too narrowly defining the term "sexual relations," right?)

Trace, are you going to argue rationally or are you just going to rant? If you're going to rant, go away. But, to actually say something to your point, (imagine that!) all I have to say is this: In all likelyhood Bush is going to get the presidency, and I'm sure you'll be happy with that. But, if his behavior up to this point, both before and after the election, is any indication of his character, he's going to be the most deceitful president since Nixon. He has absolutely no problem lying to achieve his aims, and he is a proven hypocrite. (See my post above about the voting laws he signed in Texas.)

pecadillos, i like that word

Anti Gone, are you going to say that with a straight face? You really want to bring up trust worthiness as an issue? Or did gore really invent the internet? And how about the campain fund raising? he got nailed during the campaing for "embelishing" the truth. Do you really beleive that what he says when is speachifying on tv that he is sincere? I do not lie. I meant it when I said I hope Gore wins. Let the world see what a lying sack of shit he is, and I am not ranting.

"gore did not win his own state of tennessee.... You can say that all you want, but most states were very close, maybe not .5%, but still very close. Do you beleive that bush only won the states where the governor was republican? do you beleive that gore only won the states where the governor was a democrat? who's niave? who's eating the rhetorical bullshit now? " what you talking about and why is this relevant man? No i dont believe Bush won states with only repub governors or the vice versa. In fact i dont even know that stats on this. dude are you licking drywall again? Cyst said it best.....there is too much potential for a conflict of interest in FL. And with the presidency at stake...it needs to be scrutinized. You can bet your ass that trainwreck (with the makeup) of a woman is vying for a cabinent position...... so when clinton shit's CSPAN has a right to be there. Gore not winning his own state further proves our point trace....are you on crack? Jsut because he didnt win his own state doesnt mean a damn thing. I dont'hold our presidents to any moral expectations. the white house is where he lives....its symbolic gibbly gook. He is there to do a job....symbolism, tradtion can all kiss my ass. His occupation of ? Penn Ave. is irrelavent to the job her performs. Having some silly expectations that he should be squeeky clean (according to your moral code anyway) while living there is silly and pointless. He cheated on his wife and lied about it in court....its silly to think that most others wouldnt do the same thing to protect his own asss the inevcitable media blitz thereafter. Yeah you can say well he should have thought about that before he pulled the box of cubans out, but hey....he's human, but he's also a decent politican and is an intelligent human being....i don't blame him for lying....

"invent the internet" you guys have got to get off this misquote. If you are stupid enough to believe that Gore actually thinks he created the internet, well then....Bush must be a brain to you.

I think he should have admitted he played around. he should have known eventually it would all come out anyway.

I have seen the clip, on CNN I might add, "I Took the initiative in inventing the internet"

yeah. gore should be as careful as bush about choosing his words.

Not squeaky clean, for christ's sake. I have to take Trace's side on this one. I would think that any generic american person in her/his 50s would know that boffing an underling in the workplace (an underling in her/his early 20s) is a fucking no no. People make mistakes and act against their better judgment all the time. For me the perjury is the unforgivable act (I don't care whether he personally lied to every man, woman and child in america as long as he didn't do it under oath...it makes him a shit but it doesn't make him a criminal). But even bracketing the issue of the perjury, the tremendous lack of judgment shown in the president's actions with his much younger intern REPEATEDLY does make him suspect, if not morally then in terms of common sense. Why the hell couldn't he get it on with someone less completely covered in PELIGRO signs if he couldn't keep it in his pants, eh? Anyway.

Everyone should be careful about choosing thier words

P.S. As to what it's silly to think, I believe that the President should be held to a higher standard. It's not that I don't think he should be human, which is why his screwing around is not an issue for me. It's that I think he should be smarter about it AND HE SHOULD NEVER, FUCKING EVER LIE UNDER OATH BECAUSE HE HAS HIS FUCKING POWER BY VIRTUE OF A GRANT IN THE CONSTITUTION AND SHITTING ON THE LAW BY PERJURY IS A THOUGHTLESS AND NO-PERSONAL-RECTITUDE-AT-ALL-HAVING ATTACK ON THE VERY FOUNDATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. Which torques me off beyond my capacity for descriptive speech.

I agree with Margret and I'm pro-abortion.

***bows to margret's superiority***

Abortion is, i beleive, something that is very hard to discuss. My ex fiance' (we were engaged at the time) got an abortion without my concent or even talking to me to about it. We were engaged for christ sakes, and just because I am male does not mean that i should not have a say in my baby's life. But, on the other hand, if a mother feel's she is not ready for a baby, her life is in danger, or something like that, then we have no right to deny her that right. But, if you just screwed around and found out you were pregnant, and are using it as a form of birth control, forget it

pardon me that last post is a mess......

well margret...to take j's wise words.....you can wish for an honest president under oath inone hand....and you can pee in the other see which one fills up faster. Trace....to even use the argument that women may use abortion as a form of birth control is right wing rhetoric. talk to any woman who has had it, and see if they would ever consdier using it as a form of birth control. i suspect most women would rather not have sex than go through and abortion. i can't imagine any woman saying..."no condoms? ahh shit honey go ahead and slip it in, i can always get an abortion" oh and i want to thank all the participants this am.....this is seriously theraputic to me... a

You people are making my ovaries throb. I had an abortion for breakfast this morning. Oh, my bad, it was a cup of coffee...I get all those conveniences confused sometimes.

it is nice to see a good old fashioned argument again

yeah, I think all abortion patients should have to sign a form saying, "I know that what I am doing pisses off a whole lot of good people (many of whom will never have to make this choice themselves) and, let's face it, I'm a total slut, but I promise to be really good from now on. amen." you realize, don't you, trace, that if you never had fucked your ex-fiance, she never would have aborted your unborn child. maybe if men would just keep their goddamn dicks to themselves, then there'd be a whole lot fewer women using abortion as birth control.

There's be a whole lot fewere of everybody then, cyst...

maybe that is not such a bad idea, and beleive me, I wish I had never dated the bitch, let alone fucked her

But let's not get personal, here. We're ganging up on Trace's idiocy, not his dick. And if I can say that with a straight face, I can certainly say, "Bush is a lying sack of shit" with a straight face. And now I can say that you're a lying sack of shit as well. Either that or you have very poor listening skills and just don't know any better. Gore never said, "I took the initiative in inventing the internet." I challenge you to find out what he really said.

Oh, so cnn is full of shit as well, I see. and nbc and cbs and abc and fox and UP and AP and PRN and PBS I do not beleive the main stream media, by any stretch of the imagination, but they are Liberal, everyone knows it, and they were showing the clip. I do not have to prove it, it has been shown enough. If he did not say it, then the ones who showed it on tv need to show us where it came from.

Just to clarify things ,it's shit that you put in your hand that fills up faster,I told some yokal in a yahoo fight room to shit in his hat,wear it and call it curls,but he didn't get it,so I had to explain that I was calling him a shithead.

You know what bothers me though, and I can't shake it off? This heart attack thing that happened last week. Is Cheney stil at risk? He assured the RNC that it was not an issue, but obviously it is. And they lied to us about it when he went in. The report was that he took himself in for a routine check up..... I get sick of all of them

shit, piss eh whatever. "maybe if men would just keep their goddamn dicks to themselves, then there'd be a whole lot fewer women using abortion as birth control." OUCH cyst...... i suppose if some women kept their legs closed this would apply as well (rape cases aside here)

Oh, Trace. That wasn't even a half hearted rebuke. I didn't say CNN was full of shit, I said you were. try again, sonny...

Setting The Record Straight MYTH: There are more than 10,000 votes in Miami-Dade that have never been counted. Boies: “[T]here are over 10,000 ballots that have never been counted once for the presidency of the United States.” [Today Show, 11/27/00] FACT: Every ballot in Miami-Dade was counted at least twice - once on election night and again during the automatic recount. In every election, there are a significant number of ballots that are cast by voters without choosing a candidate in every race on the ballot, including races for President. For example, in this election, 5% of the voters in Idaho, 3.9% of the voters in Illinois and 3.6% of the voters in Wyoming cast a ballot without registering a vote for President. The 10,000 votes (actually 9,000 according to their filing) about which the Gore campaign has been complaining constitute only 1.6% of the ballots cast in Miami-Dade. These ballots were counted - twice; they merely registered no vote for President. This reality reflects common sense: a voter may want to vote for a candidate for the Senate, House or other office, but be undecided about the choice for President. In particular, a voter who usually votes for candidates from one party may vote for local or statewide candidates, but be uncomfortable with his or her party’s choice for President and yet unwilling to vote for the other party’s candidate. So he or she might cast a ballot without marking a choice for President. MYTH: If you counted all the votes that already have been counted in some of the recount, Gore would actually be ahead by 9 votes. FACT: Democrats get to this number by adding unreported and unofficial votes from the late manual recount in Palm Beach and from the partial manual recount from Miami-Dade, and by subtracting the valid military overseas ballots and some of the certified votes from Nassau County. The Florida Supreme Court set a deadline of 5 p.m. on Sunday for completing manual recounts, almost tripling the statutory time period for counting mandated by Florida’s Legislature. Palm Beach did not complete its manual recount by the Supreme Court’s deadline. Miami-Dade returned to its original decision of not proceeding with a manual recount. The 157 “interim gain” for Gore in Miami-Dade came from a selective recount of the most Democrat precincts. Gore won these selected precincts by approximately 75% to 25%, while Gore won the entire county only by 53% to 46%. It would be unfair to use this interim change without counting Republican precincts, too. Precincts in Miami-Dade, including those with predominantly Hispanic and Cuban American voters, favored Bush. The Gore approach would treat these minorities in a discriminatory fashion. Military overseas ballots that were valid under Florida and federal law should be counted. Counties recognized this and counted them. Even Joe Lieberman said that such military ballots should not be rejected. MYTH: Miami-Dade would have conducted a manual recount if not for the Republican “mob” that “intimidated” the canvassing board. Klain: “We think already almost 160 votes were counted in Dade County before the mob stopped the count…. But I think that to say that a mob can storm a counting facility, stop a count, and then that’s going to provide the end because a partisan of the Bush campaign, Ms. Harris, refuses to accept returns and cuts off the counting, I don’t think that’s the kind of end that we have to American elections.” [GMA, 11/27/00] FACT: The record shows that the crowd was reacting to the Board’s decision to move the recount behind closed doors, where it could not be observed by the public or the media, and to limit the recount to only a select set of the votes. No Board member mentioned the protests as a factor in the decision, and Judge Leahy of the Board has already stated clearly that he was not intimidated by the crowd. The police made no arrests, received no assault complaints, and did not even instruct the crowd to desist. The crowd was quieted promptly. MYTH: In Nassau County, the board violated Florida law by adding votes from earlier tabulations that had been rejected by the board as illegal. FACT: On election night, all the votes were counted, but during the machine recount, 218 ballots were accidentally separated from the rest, and not counted. As a result, Bush received 124 fewer votes and Gore received 73 fewer votes than on election night. After the recount, the Nassau County Board supervisor discovered her mistake, and tried to correct it. Because the Supreme Court of Florida had held the date open for final certification until Sunday at 5:00 p.m., the Division of Elections informed the supervisor that she could revise the count to make it accurate. The Board (2 Democrats and 1 Republican) voted unanimously to certify the original election night count - which included the 218 ballots - rather than the machine recount total (which mistakenly omitted those ballots). ANTIGONE- OF COURSE YOU DID NOT SAY THAT ABOUT CNN, WHERE ELSE DO YOU GET YOUR LIBERAL BS????

Oh, and I saw the clip myself, not two minutes ago. Go find the url. It's out there, but you're probably too lazy to actually dig up FACTS to support your opinions...

what should bother you more trace is why Dubya lied about it at first saying it wasnt a heart attack when is damn well was from the beginning. Maybe he feard that might play into the public relations war they are in now. also....why is no one asking questions or contesting the recount they did in Seminole county? Bush is only contesting recounts in counties he knows he lost. lets face it.....Gore won Florida and Bush is doing everything he can to hang on to it. Also, lets not forget (if its been mentioned, pardon the duplicity) katherine harris was Dubya's campaign manager for florida.....conflict of interest? i think so. I cant wait to hear Dubya's State of the Union address....god what a nightmare that must be for him.

Trace, are you channeling James Baker again?

Ahhh, Trace, cut and paste: the last ditch effort of the feeble minded.

I thought you said i was too lazy to dig up facts?

Damn, can't someone else argue for the poor Republicans besides Trace? I'm starting to feel sorry for the little right wing facist bully boys if Trace is the best they can come up with.

Anyway, the only part of your cut and paste fest that was not steeped in misleading rhetoric was the last part about Nassau county. Strangely enough it actually bolsters the argument for human intervention over machine counting. The counting machines made a mistake and some humans corrected it. Imagine that!

i just wanna say again: don't just pick and choose counties or states, take the time to recount them all accurately. i can wait, even if it goes on until january. then, the winner will be the winner. choosing 3 or 4 counties to recount is just as bad as not counting any votes. it barely matter who gets in there, anyway. that's the saddest part.

Perfect human being, can count perfectly without bias, right? pregnant chads, dimpled chads, narcoleptic chads... They need to find someone who can determine what the voter was thinking when they went to push on this incredibly stiff ballots (must of only been stiff in the presidential section, because they got thier answers on the local tax initiatives and local issues).and changed thier mind, thus making a pregnant chad, and the whole that was actually pushed out, they did not mean it????

i just got back from a trip to south central mexico. i spent 24 hours in LA on my way back home. among rows upon rows upon rows of neon lit, gargantuan shopping emporiums, smog, traffic, unbelievable traffic, i saw a billboard that read "I am data." and all i have to say is, this country is so fucked up, and all of us living in it, fucking delusional consumeristic media junkie robots, it's beyond fucked up, there is no going back, and there is no hope. look at what we've done, at what we've become. all this talk of government and voting and rights and partisan politics. it's just a filter. it's smog. it's like religion, but worse. bush, gore, clinton, hilary, and even nadar. jesus, ghandi, buddha, mohammed. none of them can help us now. i'm not moving to mexico or anything. their government is just as screwed up. but fuck almighty, at least the people that live there are, for the most part, raised to be humans. me? you? like it or not, i got some news for you: we're just data. and my vote doesn't count.

I think this case needs to go to Judge Judy! I can just hear her now... Let me see, Bush won the first count, but only by .5%, so a recound was demanded by law, and Bush won that one, so a manual recount was launched in some counties, hand chosen, and bush won again, then more hand counts, and still bush won, and you want to sue for what, Mr. Gore?

boy, what a bunch of pussies. here are the facts: 1. statistically, the errors found in the mechanical vote count would be found across the board. these means the distribution of votes shouldn't change if the entire country is recounted. 2. the margins we are talking about are within the margin of error for hand count or machine count. so, statistically, no one has one. 3. legally, bush has won. it's up to the courts to interpret law, and they have. it's done. 4. Bill will not be president Jan 1.

no ones vote counts, the electoral college does not have to go by the popular vote anyway, this is mostly academic anyway

as far as the mob goes, The board abandoned its count because it couldn't meet the deadline set by the Florida Supreme Court (as Palm Beach County proved) and a partial recount of "undervoted" ballots wouldn't have withstood a legal challenge.

This is just too damn funny. I envy you cat, (somewhat) safe in Australia. All the republicans are saying I hope Gore gets it so you can all see how bad he'll screw up the country, whereas all the democrats are saying the opposite. Meanwhile, the greens are just saying I told you so. I totally agree about the state of the union - that should be a laugh riot. And blessedly short. I also want to point out that no one here has ever argues that Gore is not a liar or totally trustworthy. I think,though, you can trust him not to drill for oil in wildlife preserves. Or take away a woman's right to determine what happens in her womb. But, we can trust Bush to make incredibly stupid remarks every week that we can all make fun of. No wonder the race was so close. Oh, and thanks Trace, for igniting this shitpile. It's been a while since we could all shout and wave our arms at each other and not bother to proofread our posts. Patrick: Agh! My eyes!

its been really foggy here. Sarah did they delay your flight due to fog? go surfing or something maybe things wont seem as bleak. I was waiting for nate to sweep in with his "bunch of pussies" line and speak with such authority as to make me say NATE FOR PREZ. now all we need is swine to tell us we are all chuckleheads and that he's going back to sleep.

wow. we're as boring as politiks. i drove up from patrickland on saturday. it was very foggy through the central valley, but being day time the fog was up from the ground a bit. LA still sucks tough nipples. SD is nice, though. nice enough.

SD is worse then LA, I think. But I lived in AV, so I thought the whole lower basin sucked

SD is always nice....never seen it shitty. they seem to get their air cleansed more being on the waterfront. feel to drop in for a beer nexttime.....im a mile off the 5

I don't get it. What should matter besides the popular vote? I hear Rush Limbaugh every day, which I assume is where Mr. Trace is getting most of his "facts," and "arguments," 'cause it all sounds the same, really... but never once do they address this. Seems to me that the popular vote expresses the will of the people pretty clearly. Can someone on the republican side step up and say "Even though we acknowledge that Gore received MORE TOTAL VOTES from the American people, Bush should be president, because..."? No. Whenever it's brought up, the elephants start harping about "rule of law." It comes down to this, then. IS "rule of law" more important than the will of the people? Only under two circumstances, which are really one: if the party touting "rule of law" is in charge, then they are going to be strict constructionists. That is, they will read the laws in a very literal manner, insist that they be followed, because this will help them stay in power. It's a pretty blatant fact, historically: the people who are in charge will always support the system, because the system puts them in charge. Since the goal of all free-minded and happy people should be the cheerful ignorance or destruction of "the system," so long as that system is one which makes choices for the citizens (as ours obviously does,) It behooves the happy mutants of the universe to support Gore. Not because he's better, but because the concept of a Gore presidency is slightly less stable than the concept of a Bush presidency. That doesn't make any sense, but it should.

Nate, eat my pussy. Now, to your points... 1. Nobody is seriously talking about recounting the country. What's your point? 2. I take it you mean to say "no one has won." That's the understatement of the year... But, yes, the candidates are in a statistical dead heat. Bummer we can't have a runoff like any other sane democracy would. 3. You seem to forget this little thing called the US Supreme Court. 4. So?

1. la does suck tough nipples. 2. i was just in miami dade county, for what that's worth. 3. bush and gore need to suck some tough nipples and talk this thing out. 4. i think that a nationwide recount might not be a bad idea. 5. i think that this would be an excellent moment for some nation to invade us. but they're all laughing at us too hard to actually mobilize an army. 6. oh, for a runoff... 7. silly nader

A. I raised the whole sucking idea a while back. B. In a free country, we would have runoffs. C. I recently drove through a snowstorm so thick, we could only go 25 mph. D. Bush's eyes are really close together.

no one gonna is going to invade us.. that would be insane....too many civilians are armed to the teeth...this country is founded on militias....and if someone did invade us, you'd find a complete turnaround in my position on the 2nd amendment. foreign nation would be fools to try and take over america...HOWEVER...this would be an opportune time for bin Laden and his cronies to wack off an embassy or something like that. and furthermore im sick of you chumps making judgements about where i live in a matter of a day or less. not that it personally offends me, its just, well, i dunno.....i hated this place too, but it took me several years to see the beauty here......and it is here....believe me...i was the biggest cynic rolling into town....eh whatever....there is GOOD here...just don't expect to find it in a week or less. Some of the worlds most prized architecture is here and some of the most famed aritists are/were from here... come to town though and i'll show you some of it.

No need to be envious Sem, get your butt down here. We got dirt you can dig. Hell, my garden could use a bit of spade work. And what have you done with Mavis? I miss her cute little butt.

hey, there he is! i'm not saying LA is a shithole, though it most certainly is, as is pretty much all of california, except north central, the high sierras. and if you don't see how much of a shithole it is, you're in bigger trouble than you realize. all i'm saying is that american's are fucked fucked fucked and no voting reform or new presdient is going to change how fucked up we all are and how fucked up our lives have become.

4. bill will indeed be president on jan. 1.

5. Alan Greenspan will still be emperor. Thank (isSchrodingersCatDead() ? the nonexistant : wonderful almighty) god!

im not sure why LA would be any more of a shithole compared to any other major metropolis in america. like me when i first arrived, people who have spent little time here tend to write it off to the entertainment industy, the superficiality and vast wealth that accompanies the industry ......other than that, the only thing i could see that would make this place no more a shithole of a city than say NYC or Chicago is the fucked up notion of fusion food and the traffic. last time i was in NYC the west side freeway, Roosevelt/east side freeway, and the freeway with the Lincoln tunnel were just as fucked as the 10 or the 101 here. for my sanity....i choose to not let the negative aspects of this town disturb me, though im not always good at it. I stay away from the wealthy, SUV-ridden west side, although where i live is being gentrified as we speak. those cocksuckers are slowly creeping east to my hood, ruining my fine drinking and eating establishments and competing with reputable local business that have hard time staying in bidness. I stay out of the suburban, soccermom valley.....I dont go to big clubs. If there is a cover just to drink and hear a "dj' i tell em to eat a dick..... ah hell ...this will be fun.. 10 things i like about LA 1)the sheer number of people and annonymity that accompanies it 2)the Getty and the many wonderful museums and world rekowned works they get 3) The Neutra and Wright homes, as well as some of the other modern and post modern homes built here.As well as some of the neato places they are situated in the hills 4)the burger and taco stands that go well with a beer buzz at 2am 5)the views and the attainability of views, be it apartments or houses 6) the hills of silverlake and echo park 7) the downtown artists community 8) the la river, runyon canyon, mulholland drive, the nearby snowcapped mountains and other natural beauties....that are hidden, but once found stand out like flowers in dirt 9)the mild weather (although I do miss seasons, it is nice not to have harsh winters and brutal summers, except in the valley) 10)the history, in particular the first half of the century and the subsquent stories and culture....the likes of Raymond Chandler and Orson Welles.

1. Nobody is seriously talking about recounting the country. What's your point? point is, to count a few heavily democratic counties by hand throws the legitimacy of the vote more than a bunch of machines fucking up uniformally across the country. note: the hand count in miami-dade county stopped after the old jewish vote was hand counted, but before the cuban/cuban-american vote was counted. miami-dade would likely go to bush either way. 2. I take it you mean to say "no one has won." That's the understatement of the year... But, yes, the candidates are in a statistical dead heat. Bummer we can't have a runoff like any other sane democracy would. yeah. that's what i meant. no one has one, either. no one has a pair, either. fucko. 3. You seem to forget this little thing called the US Supreme Court. the US Supreme Court is not there to interpret the laws of the State of Florida. 4. So? there seemed to be some thought the Clinton would be president if this doesn't work out before 1/1. i didn't mean gates, but you're right cyst.

All of Miami-Dade's votes were counted. Trust me on this one. LA's traffic is hectic, just like in any other city. It's just that I personally like a lot of cities better, and I've spent a lot of time in LA. I admire anyone who has the guts and ability to live there, though. I just like my countryside, really. In fact, I don't particularily adore cities, though I find, oddly, that I miss San Francisco all of a sudden. I hate New York more than LA, by far. It's the craziest, nastiest city ever. There was a nice man at the Greyhound station today, I was all upset about having my travel plans get all fucked up, all I wanted to do was come home. He made me french fries (he worked at the snack bar). His name is Gerome, and he said I Should stop by and see him any time. Albany (same place as the greyhound station) is just amazing. The post office is a castle. No shit, an honest to god fucking castle with towers and stuff, and a sign outside on the lawn that says "US Post Office." They have some cool bulidings there, it's a nive capital. A lot better than Sac.

Whoops. Forgot to add--it was Palm Beach County's votes that weren't all hand-counted.

1. Republicans could have asked for a statewide recount. They didn't. Gore even offered. They instead decided to go the deceitful route of questioning the validity of a hand recount, going against Bush's own standards, blah, blah, blah... 3. I agree, and the 11th circuit court of appeals, the most conservative federal circuit in the nation, agrees too. Funny that Bush doesn't agree, isn't it?

"note: the hand count in miami-dade county stopped after the old jewish vote was hand counted, but before the cuban/cuban-american vote was counted. miami-dade would likely go to bush either way. " *shakes head* Nate!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the supreme court IS there to interpret whether or not the laws of any given state may infringe on federal law.....such as the case with medical maryjane in cali....a case the supreme pizza court has agreed to judge.....they supreme court is there to judge the laws of individual states and they do it all the time. nate i think gore would be happy if they recounted the whole state, unfortuantely the heavily democratic counties is where these seems to be the most confusion and controversy....and it has snowballed since. i find the thought of recounting and the fear of ballot manipulation silly....have you seen those tireless fucks. 1 vote for Dubya -looks the Dem observer, nods, looks to the repub observer, nods.... 1 vote for Gore repeat 1 million times...... all of this is under view of several judges, all in secured areas. its damn clear dubya fears a recount cause he know he lost the damn state. hell he was the first to launch legal injunctions when his lead was 1700 cause he knew it was too damned close for comfort. if they won't allow "the dimpled chad votes" they shouldnt allow the absentee votes of Seminole county in which repubs filled out voter info on nearly 4k votes. If they were to take away those votes alone....Gore would win.....but you dont hear the repubs calling those ballots unfair do you. thats ok, isolde, i dont care really what any one THINKS of LA, i suppose i would just want to share the good things beofer people write it off. nearly 10 million live here for SOME reason.

Antigone, do you happen to be an expert at JMS? or at least know enough to write a small book about it? let me know, i might have a book deal for you, if you're interested.

It's true, they do, just like any other city. I, personally, disike LA and don't care who knows it. But there are worse cities. Anyhow, cities are odd things. This whole election is utterly insane. Cat, y'all must be laughing your heads off right now. It's like a bad farce.

If by JMS you mean Java Message Service, I know the API but not enough to write a book about it. If you mean Jejunocolostomy Misadjustment Subjectivism, then we can talk...

dr. watson just killed my previous post-in-progress. the jist: 1.) the machine vote should stand because: a) the difference between votes for the two candidates will never exceed the margin of error for either vote counting procedure, therefore a hand count is moot. b) i'd rather relive monica l. or OJ s. than go through another week of watching the gutter trash of america roar and gripe (no offense intended, trace.) 2.) personally i feel that gore should be president by virtue of the popular vote. all things considered, this would make the most sense, however illegal. 3.) legally, bush won. this is because there is a set of laws that govern voting, and when you take these laws into account, bush won. 4.) tonight i'm going to smoke a lot of pot and have sex in ways that are technically illegal in the state of California.

I say we lock them both in a room, no weapons, just their bare hands. The one that survives is president.

I believe I was the first to suggest nakey jello wrestling and you all ignored me. Bet you're sorry now huh? That'll learn you. In the Bible, was it King Herod who ruled that the baby two women were fighting over should be cut in half? The mother who honestly loved the baby said she would let the other have it rather than see it destroyed. Anyway, this seems to be a similiar scenario.

I think they should deck it out in celebrity death match,or in the cage.

i really liked semillama's blowjob contest idea. whoever comes first, loses.

you would.

No: He wood.

And this is just too rich!

it was king solomon

Oh Good God, that just confuses things more, anti gone...... Maybe I misunderstood.... One of the things that the supreme pizza court is supposed to decide is if we go with the certification imposed by state nacho supreme court that the certification was to be completed by Sunday, the 26th that gives bush the win, including additional hand counted ballots, by 537 or if we go with the previous certification count that did not include hand counted ballots, which gave bush the win by 900 some odd votes.... the ruling, i thought, was to judge wether or not the state supreme had the right to make a judgement in an election or not.....

Did I mention I spent sunday night running around naked in the snow? This also answers the question about Mavis' whereabouts. She, along with two of our friends, were also running about naked in the snow. Well, we were wearing boots. But nothing else.

freaky people from michigan. i wish i had an epic poem generator like the alanis lyrics generator. i hope they never take that alanis lyrics generator off the shuttlecocks. "I Think" I Think andrew sewell's bobbing in the breeze freezing penis are really a huge problem I Think andrew sewell's testicles tinged blue with cold are too much on my mind I Think andrew sewell's pubic hair rimned with frost have got a lot to do with why the world sucks But what can you do? Like a that colour between blue and purple which means bruising or frost damage rain, beating down on me Like a william s. burroughs line, which won't let go of my brain Like j.r. 'bob' dobbs's ass, it is in my head Blame it on snow Blame it on snow Blame it on snow I Think andrew sewell's inappropriately warm boot shod footies are gonna drive us all crazy And people from Michigan with significantly less sense than is required to come in from the cold make me feel like a child I Think the necrotizing micro-inroads death is even now making into andrew sewell's frost-bitten flesh will eventually be the downfall of civilization But what can you do? I said what can you do? Like a that colour between blue and purple which means bruising or frost damage rain, beating down on me Like a william s. burroughs line, which won't let go of my brain Like j.r. 'bob' dobbs's ass, it is in my head Blame it on snow Blame it on snow Blame it on snow Like a that colour between blue and purple which means bruising or frost damage rain, beating down on me Like j.r. 'bob' dobbs's smile, cruel and cold Like william s. burroughs's ass, it is in my head Blame it on snow Blame it on snow Blame it on snow

hee. Actually, we were pretty warm. We were standing around a large bon fire, and previously, we made an abortive attempt at a sweatlodge, which is why we were nude in the first place. It was only a little below freezing out anyway.

soooo.... thats all ya did run around in the snow naked please make us all happy and say you and mavis are makin babies.....

NEW YORK (AP) -- The New York Mets announced today that they are going to court to get an additional inning added to the end of game 5 of the World Series. The batting, pitching, and bench coaches for the Mets held a press conference earlier today. They were joined by members of the Major League Players Union. "We meant to hit those pitches from the Yankee pitchers," said the Mets batting coach. "We were confused by the irregularities of the pitches we received and believe we have been denied our right to hit." One claim specifically noted that a small percentage of the Mets batters had intended to swing at fast balls, but actually swung at curve balls. It was clear that these batters never intended to swing at curve balls, though a much higher percentage were not confused by the pitches. Reporters at the press conference pointed out that the Mets had extensively reviewed film of the Yankees pitchers prior to the World Series and had in fact faced the Yankees in inter-league play earlier in the year. "The fact remains that some of the pitches confused us and denied us of our right to hit," said the Mets batting coach. "The World Series is not over yet and the Yankees are celebrating prematurely." Major League Baseball has reviewed the telecast of all the World Series games and recounted the balls and strikes called by the umpires of each game. "While some of the strikes called against the Mets were, in fact, balls, there were not enough of them to change the outcome of the World Series," the commissioner said. Another portion of the Mets legal claim stated that, based on on-base percentage, the Mets had actually won the World Series, regardless of the final scores of the games. "It's clear that we were slightly on-base more often than the Yankees," said a Mets spokesman. "The WorldSeries crown is rightly ours." The manager of the Mets has remained in relative seclusion, engaging in some light jogging for exercise. He has stated that he believes "we need to let the process run its course without a rush to judgment."

If you're gonna cut and paste, format it. Running around the snow nude is a wonderful activity.

everyone's a critic

no! not making babies! yick! the fire was the size of a minivan to begin with. and it was too hot to wear clothes, at least within five feet of the fire or so....the more i try to explain, the weirder it sounds.... but sem, we should've walked on coals, that would have been funny! but maybe as bad as the sweatlodge attempt. i know how to make it work better the next time too.i figured it out. who knows?

damn. i want to hang out with sem and mavis.

It's all good. no babies are even remotely in danger of being made though. No llamas are in danger of being jumped either. here's something for trace and antigone to hash out: proportional electoral votes...would've sunk Bush

I hate to disappoint you, but I do not disagree with that article. I realize that Gore won the popular vote and bush may win the electoral vote. I don't like the electoral college as it stands, but I do not want the east and west coast deciding the presidents for the rest of the country. I think there should be 1 vote for each state and the district. That would be 51 votes. No ties. Simple Majority.

yeah i'd like to hang with the freaks too..... see what it took to bring her outta the woodwork... hi mavis!

But why should the vote of someone in a populous state like New York carry less weight than a vote from say, Rhode Island? One thing I heard that I liked was that the electoral votes should be proportioned not only according to how many people live in the state, but also should not be a "winner-takes-all" system, so that the states' electoral votes are divvied up a la Maine. I think from now on, I will vote for the person least likely to prevent me from running around in the snow naked. So I will probably never ever vote republican.

i think the notion that if they do away with the electoral college the less populated states will get less attention. thats a non argument. so the fuck what. ok, fine, so montana doesnt get a visit by ether canidate...so what. they are still available via papers, radio, tv etc.... how many people actually go out and see canidate in order to make up their mind? i just don't the fact that the places like Montana or the Dakotas have 1 electoral vote for every 100,000 people and places like Cali has 1 electoral vote for every 400,000 people. (dont hold me to the specific numbers, but its something like that). I tend to think we should have a proportional govt as well....

I agree with the article, it has cold hard facts which some of us choose not to include. I also think the allocation of votes that Patrick pointed out is stupid, and not fair in the least. I don't think the electoral college should exist, really, it annoys me.

SOON SO SOON IT WILL ALL DISOLVE AWAY.

since Hilary was one of the first right after the election to say it should be done away with...i suspect that might be her token over the next 4 years......

Yes, oh Lord, hear my prayer. Make it go away. Then Satan and all the silly midwesterners can sit back and enjoy what they have wrought.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS!!! I AM YOUR NEW RULER AND MASTER.

Ok, ok. You don't have to shout.

hey, patrick, yeah, I calculated that number and posted it somewhere on the boards here. in a presidential election, a south dakotan's vote is worth about four times that of a californian's. my numbers weren't completely accurate because all I did was use census numbers and congressional seats. and the census numbers don't take age, citizenship, and incarceration factors into account. but, yeah, some of those little states' voters get to carry three to four times as much weight as in big states. it's unfair.

Wait, Fetid, I'm confused. Can you explain that to me one more time? I lost you back at "I AM."

So did Jehova...

You all can burn in hell, NY, CA and FL should not decide the fate for the rest of the country.

Um, we have more people than the rest of the country, and this country is supposed to be ruled by a majority. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the way the dice fall.

ok, according to the us census, here are the numbers: Total US population as of 7/99: 272,211,211 CA: 33,145,121 FL: 18,196,601 NY: 15,111,244 Total Combined: 66,452,966 % of total population: 24.41%

Almost 1/4 of us population is concentrated in these 3 states, so yes, it is higher, but those three states do not and should not have the say for the other 75%. Interesting note: Florida almost makes up 6% of the us population, but right now, they have the ball in thier court

So therefore, they can't rule the rest of the country. No majority. You just shot your own argument down. However, about 24% is pretty much the percentage of eligible voters who voted for bush (similar for gore). Do you think that someone who only had ~25% of the voting public's support really has any mandate to lead?

No one had a mandate here, that much is clear

25% is a lot, when most of them are democrats in those three states.

Well, perhaps if everyone voted, those three states wouldn't "rule the country" as you say. But, as it stands now, it's the way it works. I, personally, think that it's perfectly fair. After all, one of my electors counts for 1/4 of one from Montana. That's not fair, now is it?

Montanna only has 882,779 people, how many electors does the state have?

for anyones enjoyment, State populations as of 7/99: Wyoming 479,602 DC 519,000 Vermont 593,740 Alaska 619,500 North Dakota 633,666 South Dakota 733,133 Delaware 753,538 Montana 882,779 Rhode Island 990,819 Hawaii 1,185,497 New Hampshire 1,201,134 Idaho 1,251,700 Maine 1,253,040 Nebraska 1,666,028 New Mexico 1,739,844 West Virginia 1,806,928 Nevada 1,809,253 Utah 2,129,836 Arkansas 2,551,373 Kansas 2,654,052 Mississippi 2,768,619 Iowa 2,869,413 Connecticut 3,282,031 Oregon 3,316,154 Oklahoma 3,358,044 SouthCarolina 3,885,736 Kentucky 3,960,825 Colorado 4,056,133 Alabama 4,369,862 Louisiana 4,372,035 Minnesota 4,775,508 Arizona 4,778,332 Maryland 5,171,634 Wisconsin 5,250,446 Missouri 5,468,338 Tennessee 5,483,535 Washington 5,756,361 Indiana 5,942,901 Massachusetts 6,175,169 Virginia 6,872,912 North Carolina 7,650,789 Georgia 7,788,240 New Jersey 8,143,412 Michigan 9,863,775 Ohio 11,256,654 Pennsylvania 11,994,016 Illinois 12,128,370 Florida 15,111,244 New York 18,196,601 Texas 20,044,141 California 33,145,121

Numbers by region: Northeast 51,829,962 19% Midwest 63,242,284 23% South 96,468,455 35% West 61,150,112 22%

Somebody really needs to tell Gore he lost. It's pathetic.

He's pathetic

Wait a minute, according to what or whom is this country supposed to be ruled by the majority? Are you motherfuckers out there smoking CRACK? Did NOONE on these boards (I am being hyperbolic, please do not submit old report cards to me, I'm sure you were all brilliant adolescents) take a fucking CIVICS CLASS EVER? This country, motherfuckers, was not set up as a motherfucking DEMOCRACY. It was set up as a REPUBLIC. Please take some time to read about these two forms of government and how they differ. In these terms, I AM A REPUBLICAN.

We know it's a republic, Margret. What some of us want is a democracy. Others would prefer a Fetidbeavereaucracy.

nit pick nit pick nit pick tell me margy how is this country NOT ruled by a marjority. Whoever wins the majority of electorates, wins..RIGHT? A proposition in CA passes if it wins the MAJORITY. the House and Senate pass laws based on majorities, we add amendments to our Constitution by majority... Im not going to get into the republic vs democracy debate.....i agree with you on that from the "lesson" you gave me before....and my poli sci class year and half ago. otherwise what the fuck are you talking about?

We are a democratic replublic. There is a huge difference between a democracy, a replublic and a democratic replublic. The major problem with the system today is that people vote with thier hearts, not with thier brains.

Of course, there are some that say we are a constitutional replublic (obviously a republic governed by a constitution), but regardless of what kind of nation you say we are, in this country MAJORITY DOES RULE

the majority does not necessarily rule.

explain cyst..... "The major problem with the system today is that people vote with thier hearts, not with thier brains." you can actual support Bush, and say this?

Uh, yes.

I vote with my pinky toe. Egaaaads!

i was thinking the same thing, patrick. "well, he's not too bright, and he wants to take away abortion rights and gay rights and ravage the environment while he's at it, but damn if he doesn't seem like a guy i could sit down with and have a beer!" go figure.

I wonder if he'd drink Busch. uherm. sorry.

Bush is just a figurehead just like Gore they have advisors coming out of their ass, Bush is not going to take away abortion rights,or gay rights or anything else,he will get in office and let other people do his thinking for him,just like they all do,except come to think about it Clinton did his own thinking,with his penis and that's about all.

sorry, once again. I guess I misread something. I thought Isolde was arguing that this country was based on majority rule and I took this to mean (because as we all know I'm sensitive about this) to mean direct representation of the interests of the majority of the populace. Which is kind of where it gets tricky because, as we all know, the house and the senate were set up bicamerally to actually circumvent the kind of lynch-mob direct political enaction this concentration of power subject to the whims and vagaries of the hoi polloi. This country isn't ready for national democracy (states, maybe, other localities and municipalities...well, whatever makes you run naked in the snow, eh?). For democracies to even have a shot at working you need citizens and not inhabitants...and not ostensive citizens but people who embrace civic virtue.

When it comes down to it, now, I don't think it much matters who gets up there. And J has a point. The president isn't the supreme ruler...just because his beliefs may be one thing, doesn't mean the effect will come into play for the entire country....so it's not a matter of worrying about that. I digress. I'm interested to see how either Gore or Bush will be able to get up on that podium for innaguration and actually feel good about himself. How in the world can either of them morally keep this shit up knowing half the country hates them? Either way, it's a suck suck deal. Hence, last night, over about 6 bottles of Sammy Smith's oatmeal stout, I've decided to be president.

we need to get back to what the framers of the constittytution intended! voters should be landowners because truely, who else has a stake in society?

J you're crazy some of our most intelligent presidents in the last 25 or so have been Clinton and Carter, some of our more mindless space cadet for presidents have been republicans ...Reagan, and now this nimwit GW..... yes they all delegate....but to what extent. Bush is KNOWN for delegating completely....its his style... I too think Bush won't take away abortion, or other rights for gays and women, at least not directly that would be political suicide...and now with a split congress, its even more likely he would never get anythign like that to pass. HOWEVER, he will appt justices to the Supreme Court that COULD rule against these rights after he is gone. But you know, now that i think of it, justices have to be approved by the senate, so.....he may have ahrd time there too.....What he does could have long and lasting repercussions and frankly his intelligence level scares the hell out me....and due to his reknowned practive of delegating heavily, that leaves his office susceptable to outside influence and special interests. thats true for all prez, but I like man who thinks for himself and is intelligent enough to know when NOT to listen to his advisors.

and you can't vote unless you're at least a size 36C and your penis is over 5 inches.

I never said i wanted to have a beer with him. Yes, you are so right, the man wants to ravage the planet, make women with pregnancy complications die, and take away your right to choose your life style. BULLSHIT, now you all are spewing the same horse shit liberal rhetoric I hear on tv. Most points people do not get is this: Why must the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT make most of these decisions? We do have state, county, and city governments that could control eviromental choices far better than the talking heads in DC could. It is not anyone's right to tell you how to live your life and what choices you can make with your life. But, gays in the military is a very hot issue. When I was in the military, going through boot camp, the others would KILL YOU (literaly) if they found out you were gay. Why, I don't know. But to me, it seemed like it would be in someone's best interest to stay away. Bush is republican. He stands for keeping things the way they are or were before it went to shit. He cares about law, rather then agree with one until it gets in your way. He is fair.

"He cares about law, rather then agree with one until it gets in your way. He is fair." There are a bunch of people on his death row that are denied DNA testing, even when evidence is apparent they may have the wrong guy. Fair? Are you a fucking moron Trace, Im sorry, but the record in his state hardly indicates fairness. "Keeping things the way they are" You know, many people prior to 1864 advocated keeping things "the way they are" many people prior to the 1960s wanted to keep things they way they are. You assume they way things are is a good thing. many people during the renaissance that wanted to keep things the way they are. a teacher once told me, only the wise change their mind. progress trace, progress. what is, aint always right. gays in the military,,,fer chrissakes....its pretty damn clear why you would get killed for being openly gay. IGNORANCE. Period. Homosexuality is a threat to the ignorant man's masculinity. Its based on illogic. Stay away? Just because the rest of you are bunch nimwit, closet homophobes who illogically fear the gay boogie man is gonna steal your masculinity??? I gurantee you, you served alongside homosexuals, and to think they incapable or dont deserve to serve their country simply because they dont find the opposite sex appealing is utterly dumb. The military needs everyone it can get these days. There was once a time when military thought the idea of women serving was ludicrous....in the very near future, people who think gays should "stay out" will be ostrasized as bigots and generally speaking......dumb.

I'm not crazy...stoned but not crazy. And how can you say that Clinton was intelligent? Oh shit that's a good one. I was always under the impression Hillary did his thinking for him.

Watch it, I never said I don't like them, or anything of the sort. I just know how bad it can get. I never said that they do not deserve the same respect. As far as the comment about the death penelty, why have prisons at all? why have any punishments unless everyone in the world witnessed someone do something? Do you know for a fact that hitler had all those jews killed? How? Did you see it? Did they run a DNA test? How about Charles Manson? Or Ted Bundy? There is no garauntee, maybe the history books were lying. You will never know for 100% sure that someone did something unless you witnessed it. And you did get me on the 1864 commment. However, I feel that the biggest thing that we need to work on is a smaller Federal Government, with more control being on the state level, rather than the federal level. Let the fed's print money, provide a military, take care of foreign affairs and leave the rest of it to the locals. We don't need uncle sam wiping our ass or feeding us.

trace said (well, trace said a lot of things but), "in this country MAJORITY DOES RULE." what I meant by "the majority doesn't necessarily rule" is that someone who wins the popular vote for president can lose the election.

Or taking away more of our rights.

Clinton is a very intellegent man. One of the best public speakers this nation has ever seen. An incredible capacity for memory.

j, do you think george bush jr. is more intelligent than bill clinton? I mean, intelligence is sort of a side issue, but I've never doubted that bill clinton is a very intelligent man (who has done some dumb things, as have we all).

No,I don't think George is more intelligent than Gore,It's like I said,they have all these advisors to do their thinking for them.Being a good speaker and being a President are two different things.

not anymore..... you have to be a good public speaker, and at least half way decent looking. Not for me, but for most people.

Trace, I am irritated that you keep referring to liberal rhetorical bullshit. I don't want to rain on your critical thinking parade, here, but it strikes me that the same stupid arguments I'm seeing on Capital Beat are being reproduced here ad nauseam without any interesting performative moments. Why is it rhetorical bullshit when it's liberal, but if you cite some moronic and ill-substantiated conservative argument with fully its fair share of semantic shading then it's somehow a discursive intervention? Fock! Eat ass. And to you dumbasses who are knee-jerking liberally, you also may LIBERALLY partake of the ceremonial eating of the ass. Hot fuck served on the side as a piquant condiment. Stupid elections.

??? i have been accused of just repeating what Rush Limbaugh and Capital Beat and whatever else, but I have not watched any of those programs. I listen to local talk radio, and maybe they are repeating what they see and hear on those programs, so maybe that is why....... I find myself doubting the reps and dems through this, and I cannot say I am entirely pleased with the decisions Bush has made since the 7th, but I have already had it with the dems, so I have been defending the republicans. Frankly, I am getting sick of the whole thing. And I think the greens and the liberatarians don't have it together enough yet, and I know the reform party is just one tenth of a step away from satin sheets, so who the hell cares anymore?

I knew Clinton was fucked when he had Noriega at his Inauguration,you have to be personally invited.Hmmmmmm

Margret's right. We all need a healthy serving of ass. Trace, my grandfather served in WWII, under Intelligence, and I think that would strongly disagree with your above statement regarding the Jews. But, how do I know dubya exists, since I haven't seen him with my own eyes? Wow, I hadn't thought about that. That line, "literal rhetoric bullshit" reminds me of a former friend. Must just be my imagination, though. As for wrecking the environment, at least Gore doesn't want to drill in our national parks.

Just to clarify, I did not say i did not beleive that hitler had the jews killed, I was trying to make a point about absolute proof is all

Clinton wasn't a Rhodes scholar for being a dummy. and Jimmy Carter hasn't taught at one of the more prestigious colleges in the US (Emory) for being an idiot. Gore did "write" a book, Bush couldnt even remember the title of the book his mother wrote when questioned by a kindergarten student. And well, its pretty damn evident that Reagan wasn't too bright either....a good politician, but intelligence....welllllllll

Yeah Semillama! The Fetidbeavereaucracy will fix everything.

So Noriega was Clinton's fault? J, you must have been sleeping from 1988-92... And Margret has a point, Trace. You might not listen to or watch those programs, but much of what's said there is republican propaganda. The republicans are VERY good at producing a message and they have lots of operatives in the media who are will repeat them. Also the culture of the republican party and conservative movement is geared towards unity, which leads to people who are willing to repeat, ad nauseum, what their party leaders put out. Mega dittos, Trace! Not to say that democrats don't have the same party mechanisms, but the party culture is different. Republicans tend to be more "rule of law" types. Democrats are more of the "rule of justice" types. (At least, that's how they are portrayed to the public...) As a result, followers of the republican party line are less apt to question their leaders and principles, while democrats are more likely to question theirs, at least among the rank and file. This helps the republican party spread it's message more effectively.

Clinton thought enough of Noriega to invite him to his inauguration,if that doesn't seem strange to anyone then who's sleeping?

What disappointed me but did not ultimately suprise me is McCain becoming a Bush camp mouthpiece. So much for straight talk. But J will remind us that the guy is full of shit anyway. The next election will be intersting.

The next four years are going to be a flop

I can't stand McCain.

if i remember correctly, bush sr. was quite fond of noriega. noriega's drugs anyway. iran/contra? am i being stupid or was that bush? or was that something else? i forget what it was about exactly, but i'm happy to say it anyway.

Noriega was in favor with the administration at the time, J. The US had propped him up since he came into power, adn Clinton had nothing to do with that. The reason he was in favor had nothing to do with Clinton on the day of his inauguration, for goodness sakes. There was a wee bit of history there, ya think? C'mon, J! You can't blame everything on Clinton. Think a little. You're capable of it!

here we go.

COme to think of it, I bet bush jr. was pretty fond of noreaga's drugs too.

i work with a guy, whio lived in South Central, where Noriega's dope was dumped......and crack was introduced......he could tell all about that

someone once said that our best presidents have been less than intellegent. then that someone gave some examples, and I thought "hmmm." but I can't remember who that someone was or what examples that someone gave, so fuck me with a cattle prod. lightly.

Apparently you'd make a fantastic president, Nate. :-P

im not sure being fucked lightly with a cattle prod is possible mister nate. you may have to settle for a midly rough schtooping witha cattle prod.

you two are so sweet.

intelligence is over-rated well, except maybe for margret, she kicks ass intelligence can be a very bad thing when not combined with other qualities

Montana has 2 electorial votes. That makes it about 440,000 Montanan's per elector. How's that compared the the rest of the country? The two went to Bush, though. I hereby disown my state. Montana doesn't have a say in the president. Just not enough people... But Montana is not an entity. There are very few people inside it's made-up borders, so there's no reason votes in Montana should mean more than those in New York. I mean, why should the state you come from dictate the power of your vote? "NY, CA and FL should not decide the fate for the rest of the country." Why not? That's where the people are. If one decision has to be made for the whole country, why should some puny state (in population) have a large say in what's good for a state with millions of people in it? Trace, your stategy of one vote per state would mean that I would have the voting prowess of 37.5 Californians. Explain to me why I matter 37.5 times more than a Californian does. While I may, this is not true for most Montanans. Trace, I want you to know that your use of the slaughter of Jews as an example was pretty lame regardless of your point. And we're talking about a guy scheduled to lose his life based on evidence against him. Don't you think that a little DNA test that might raise a reasonable doubt should be allowed? If he's guilty, it probably would support that. There may be no absolute proof, but shouldn't we try our best to make sure we aren't killing the wrong guy? Wait, I don't disown my state... Just most of the people in it. And I think I need to get a naked snow party going... You're all invited. We'll even have cattle prods... and cattle. And this was less disjointed the first time I wrote it, but I discovered that resizing netscape clears all your little forms. Grotendous.

i'm addicted to consumptionjunction.com

I'm going to let that slide Antigone,whatever we should change things after 200 some years because Al Gore doesn't like it? Our forefathers thought this out,worked on it and it's been just fine up to now. I heard a lawyer that was one of a group of non-partisan's who had to go to court after the recount in one county to go over the ballots and he said some of the chads on the ballots had been taped,and when questioned about it,they said the voter must have changed his mind.Come on,I'd rather have a whole new election with new ballots.

"it's been just fine up to now..." that is not an argument. ever.

our forefathers felt that only white, male property owners should vote. our forefathers felt that slavery was OKEEDOKEY. our forefathers were intelligent men, but not impeccable pillars of wisdom.

Mega dittos! I like that. MEGA DITTOS MEGA DITTOS MEGA DITTOS.

MEGA DILDOES MEGA DILDOES MEGA DILDOES

Simply put, if changes need to be made to the election process, then they need to be done BEFORE the next election, but have no effect on the current election. You cannot change the rules durring a game (unless your are eight and playing parchesi).

All I am saying is that you will NEVER have absolute proof, and you will always have a reason to doubt (unless it is OJ, in which case we need no further proof). Question: How can you support the killing of innocent, unborn babies, but not of convicted killers? Shouldn't the baby be given more of a chance then a murderer? I realize it is "the mother's choice", but what about the baby?

I support abortion rights for a number of reasons. But that would require a new thread. I support the death penalty, but not under the current system, which is obviously severely flawed. If men on death row are being refused DNA tests, I refuse to dedicate my tax dollars to murdering them. Maybe I'll start an abortion thread. Am I ready for the sparks to fly, though?

I refuse to dedicate my tax dollars to murdering babies

Lets not go into the whole abortion issue here... And Trace, unless your going to stop paying taxes, or you already have. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE, THEY DECIDE, ITS ALL UP TO THEM, AND WE HAVE NO CONTROL... DO YOU HEAR ME NO CONTROL.

why are republicans so adamant about saving unborn babies and yet, when they're born, they're the ones most likely to withhold any services to support them. to me, it's simple: if you don't want it, abort it. there's a little pill that'll take care of it. i really don't think it's all that cruel. sad, maybe but not cruel. i've seen a lot of newborns including my own and for all the talk of babies having the buddha mind and being aware of everything, my impression is that for the first couple of months, the lights are on but nobody's home. that's after they're born. i've never met a fetus or an embryo but i'm pretty sure they have even less awareness of self than a newborn. my point is, that's the time to get rid of them. that's when it's most humane. so, yeah, if dubya wants to insist that women bear their babies when there's such an easy remedy available, he can fucking pay their child support, buy the b-day presents, x-mas presents, etc. god damn it.

You dems want to save trees, but not babies....

Gore lost! Bush won! enough said!

He can also pay for all the wome who cross the border to get abortions because they feel like they have no choice. And, uh, Trace, your tax dollars aren't going to murdering babies. A prisoner doesn't pay to be on death row, and a woman does pay for an abortion. Maybe your tax dollars are going to policemen who prevent clinics from being bombed by idiots, but your money ain't paying for no vacuum.

No, there are clinics where it is free. that is where my ex fiance had my baby murdered

If for nothing else, abortions should be legal so that the little bundles of joy don't have to grow up and read threads like this one. And just look at the death penalty as a "retroactive" abortion.

postnatal, perhaps...

Trace. I didn't say I was against killing convicts. I just said W was an asshole. I'm just saying he's pretty heartless, and that denying someone a small chance to prove their innocence (and save their life) is pretty shitty, and then to make fun of someone who is on death row and thus going to die in the reletively near future is a sure way to lose my vote. That's pretty cruel. I don't support cruelty to ANYONE. Except politicians. Granted, he was probably guilty. And no, there is no absolute proof. But we have the obligation to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. A DNA test is pretty strong evidence. What if that DNA test would have suggested his innoncence? Killing an innocent grown man is not more ok than killing a fetus. But it's a pretty easy stance to say "don't kill babies" and "be mean to criminals". Morally rightious and whatnot. Just remember, you have to make SURE they're criminals before you kill them.

I relent on that point then, I have nothing against getting better proof

I believe in the death penalty,but I also think they should have the right to a DNA test,but when you know for certain the fucker did it,he should die.Last year some meth head took his little 2 year old girl out into the desert (told her they were going to look at Christmas lights)and he torched her.She died running towards him.He drove back to make sure she was dead.Fuck him!!!! He can die and I don't give a shit.

Jesus Christ. Burn him. He deserves no less than a long painful death.

J, that's an excellent example of why I'm for an amended death penalty. Some things need to seriously change before I will agree with the death penalty now, though, because men who are inoocent of crimes are being killed. One of the reasons for that is that they are denied more evidence. I just think it's kind of odd that Texas has the largest death row population, and that Texas is not afraid to kill people who are mentally retarded. Interesting.

I'm not especially concerned with saving trees, at least not individual trees. I'm a little more concerned with preserving the shattered shards of the global environment. You have a tree you want me to cut down, point me that way. I need a christmas tree anyway. I don't believe dave is a 'dem'. I know I'm not a 'dem'.

dave is basically anti-government, and i can't say as i blame him, although it pisses me off. we are so broke right now. we both just got paid, dave's account is still negative and mine will have about $100 after i pay the bills. somebody fucking shoot me. merry christmas.

i certainly recognize a need for lumber. there are far more efficient sources for paper but that's yet another topic. i'd support cutting down all of the trees next to the highways and outlying suburban areas before marauding the last of the pristine forests. i'd rather see clear cuts next to the highways and populated areas knowing that, somewhere over the next ridge, there's unspoiled wilderness. i'm way more democrat than republican but i'm not a democrat. i'm really a civilized anarchist. that's different from the pseudo-anarchist that feels the need to provoke the cops at n30.

Republicans will always support abortion because they're tough on crime

Where I lived before, there was a "scenic corridor," a belt of trees about five feet thick on either side of the highway. For miles on other side, the hills and valleys were stripped utterly bare. For miles. Fires would rage over the dry brush in the summer, and the hills eroded into the water in the winter. This was the result of clearcutting, which is not an environmentally sound logging practice. a. clearcutting is bad. b. sustainable logging is not. I am all for logging, because I recognize the need for lumber. However, due to clearcutting, lumber is no longer the number one industry in mendocino county, pot is. I remember when I first moved there that they would cut down trees so huge it would take six logging trucks to bring them to the mill. Now, I've seen as many as thirty tiny trunks on one truck. c. recycling is a great way to get paper. I use recycled or bamboo paper. I think that recycling should actuall be promoted even more than it is, because it's shame to think of all the paper that gets wasted every year that comes straight from the mill. Interestingly, though some paper is made from entire inferior trees like pine, much of it as actually made from the leavings of trunks after they have been milled, which makes it a lot better. Often, they aren't cutting down entire trees solely for paper. In my case, were they to clearcut on the sides of the highway, I wouldn't know that over the ridge was pristine wilderness, because there wouldn't be. I despise the scenic corridor, because it was put up for tourists and it's a denial of the truth, which upsets me. I'm lucky, I lived in an area which is mostly private land, and what GP land there was was too steep and worthless to log anyway, so I was surrounded by trees, albeit second growth. For around an hour around me on all sides there were trees, with some fields--which used to be forested, but had recovered from their clearcutting and weren't nasty, because they were clearcut as much as 100 years ago. However, were I to go inland, I would see entire hills looking like fresh scars. I have long ago resigned myself to the fact that there is very little pristine wilderland in America. When I caretook a 365 acre ranch with my father, the landlord was cutting down the old growth there, and it was only because I begged and pleaded with her that 50 acres were left alone. She practiced sustainable logging, which made the land look less desolate. But still... I think our national parks, the few pristine woodlands left to us, need to be preserved. It's very important to me that people are able to see trees one hundred years from now. And I happen to know which candidate it is that wants to destroy that. Trace, many of us object to clearcutting, not logging. Moreover, often our objection is not to save the trees, but to save the land. Salmon are an endagered species as a result of clearcutting. Coho Salmon, once the pride and joy of Mendocino County, are almost gone. GP and LP tried to cover this fact up, and when that didn't work, they said the salmon were all gone so that the county would allow them to clearcut for thirty miles along the banks of a river. It took the efforts of two politically minded high school students, who went in and did fish counts in those waters, to prevent the logging and ultimate destruction of that river. I am not a "dem," either, and I don't value trees over the lives of innocent men on death row, of even fetusus. I value the ability for man to live on the earth 100 years from now.

I never said I did not disagree with clear cutting, I love nature, I espcially love walking in the woods in winter on a frozen river (well, creek anyway). I think we need a better solution than that. I just value babies as much as trees

montana couldn't only have two electoral votes. each state gets as many electoral votes as congressional representatives. each state gets at least three (two senate seats and one or more house seats).

Did you read that at all? "I am not a "dem," either, and I don't value trees over the lives of innocent men on death row, or even fetusus." Jesus. I also happen to value wanted babies more than unwanted ones when they're in the womb. I know a girl who had a baby that she thought she wanted, in fact, she still does, and she loves her little girl, but the father is a dead beat and didn't pay child support. She had to drop out of school to try and raise her child, the father never contacts her, never sends money, yet somehow expects visitation rights. That's fucked up. I think, in any case, even though I can't have children, that it is not my place to choose for or judge a woman who doesn't want her child. Perhaps it is better off that way. Population is a huge problem, should we exacerbate it by being childish about this issue? Having both sides repeat the same stupid rhetoric? The Europeans managed to sort all of this out without problems and are now carring on. It is not you place or anyone elses to tell a woman what to do with her body. Period.

Oh, and you're right, Cyst. I thought that looked odd. I think that Dario Fo should write a play about this election.

Thank you... Thats all that needed to be said... See the English aren't all that backwards now are they?

The Europeans don't fucking bathe either. I guess they must be right

thank you for again raising the level of the discourse here, trace. we were sort of slacking before you arrived.

My Pleasure

Whoa. What was that you just said, Trace? Are you implying that no one in Europe bathes? That statement shouldn't even merit the reply I was going to make. Jesus fucking Christ. That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard _in my life_.

Are you implying that everyone in Europe agrees with abortions?

I think I lost something here,right here right now,it's gone.And so the conversation turns..

Nope, I'm not. I'm implying that most people in Europe are adult enough to realize the need for legalized abortion. In all European countries, abortion is legal, and there is some opposition. Apparently, these people care more about their women than we do. European women can always be secure that they can get a safe, legal abortion, and none of them will ever have to cross the border to be cut up by a disreputable doctor. That shows respect for women.

YOU KNOW.... We do have a string going for this conversaion... Oh well, live and let live.... OH WAIT.... THATS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT.

i wonder how many backwoods redneck dittoheads bathe regularly.

You're right, cyst. For some reason, I thought it was two. CNN.com says Montana has: 3 out of 538 total; 0.6 percent of total electoral votes

That's a good question, Nate, I wonder if they post statistics on that.

I was stuck on a bus going to the Space Center in Florida and almost puked,a French,hairy armpits,crew was aboard and it fucking stunk.Fuck them.

DITTO. I LOVE THEM ALCOHOL.

YES!!! And some "Larry" too

Nate... That would be .01% of alot of fucking people.

I've got one question that a good friend of mine brought up: what gives the state the right to kill someone?

In the bible and Torah, it says that you are allowed to kill people if they commit crimes like pre-meditated cold-blooded murder and there is substantial proof. So the state gets this right from the bible. Am I understanding this correctly?

I still dislike GORE

I still dislike YOU

my bible never had the words pre-meditated or cold-blooded anywhere in it

montana has to have more than 2 electorates. They are given 2 right off the bat for their senators, they have at least one more for the representatives. what they need to do is do away with the "bonus" electorates that a state is given for their senators. base electorates soley on population. Montana has 3 electorates. They used to have 4, now they have 3.

Oh, shit. (1) there is no natural law, so there are no natural rights, so an rights we're talking about are social or political rights, meaning they're created and legitimated or de-legitimated in that context (2) the state has the right to kill people because it has taken that right and noone has stopped it. duh. (3) is it LEGITIMATE or ILLEGITIMATE in the social and political contexts in which it is found, if we're talking the American political context? Well, it's legitimate, because it's been so declared by those wacky arbiters of all things constitutional, the supreme court. Further, capital punishment seems to enjoy lots of popular support in many states. Not all states practice capital punishment.

I am confused, or not confused

And now for the new edition of J, poet laureate of Sorabji: I was stuck on a bus going to the Space Center in Florida and almost puked a French hairy armpits crew was aboard and it fucking stunk. Fuck them.

Margaret: Of course there's natural law! Gravity, momentum, etc... It's my firm belief (yes...belief...) that there is an optimal set of guidelines that help society run in a way that benefits the majority of it's members in a most pleasing fashion. That to me would be "natural law." (Although I don't like the word "law." It's a bit too static and dictatorial for my tastes.) Of course, the meanings words "benefit," "pleasing," and "guidelines" are so up to debate it ain't even funny... I base my belief on the following assumption: humans have a pretty static, definable physical structure. (It does change over time, but that change is slow. It is EXTREMELY complex, but we're getting better at describing it every day.) There must, therefore, be some optimal way for us to interact so that we're all as fulfilled as possible. I think that if we have a good 2000 years or so of enlightened study on the subject, we could make significant progress....

Heather, what edition of the Bible did _you_ have? Mine clearly says "premeditated" on page three. Oh, wait, I think that was the pamphlet at the grocery store.

I've only ever seen the bible put to good use twice in my entire life. 1: I went to the movies with some friends of mine, god knows why one of them had a bible on him, I sure as hell don't. Anyway, up front in the movie there was this kid who wouldn't shut the fuck up. My friend stood up, threw the bible at his head, and sat back down... The kid didn't say another fucking word... 2: I don't do drugs, but I have seen and heard that the pages of a bible make great rolling papers.

At the LADNC, there were these guys standing on the street corner with the Bible, and one of the guys I went down with and I would stand around and refute their quotations--most of them seemed to have very poor bible knowledge, it was really sad.

Like I said... Rolling Papers.

Holy shit!

i heard something on the radio today that made me smile: apparently, the ballots in florida fall under the fair reporting act or something like that. they will most likely be, at some point, re-counted very carefully and many people believe the results will favor gore. of course, the re-count will carry no official weight but the results will almost certainly be widely publicized. so the news will come out that the loser of the popular vote and the unofficial loser of the carefully re-counted votes in the state that delivered the electoral vote to him due to a previous, inaccurate count will be occupying the oval office. that rocks! on another note: how many people think it's worth it to implement an accurate, computerized voting system that will probably cost somewhere around 3 billion dollars? this number is loosely based on the number of precincts in florida and the estimated number of machines needed in each precinct and then, extrapolating from that, the number of machines needed to service the whole country. when you figure that the current machines will need to be replaced eventually, it seems like a good idea. as long as microsoft is barred from contributing to the design of the new equipment, the accuracy could conceivably approach 100%. wouldn't you like to know that, if you're going to put the effort into getting out and voting, your ballot is actually going to be counted? awww, what do i care.

$3 billion is pocket change. Interest on the national debt was about $250 billion last year. That's INTEREST. Total debt was $5.6 trillion. With a T. And if the Shrub gets his way, we're not going to be paying that off any time soon, so no, we won't be able to finance any election system improvements...

Lookie here...

Sorry, I was wrong. Interest on the debt is $362 billion. But, what's $112 billion among friends?

go to bed, dumbass.

Chew me, shitnipples

Q. What do all of your mortal enemies have in common? A. You.

Wow there, cowboy.

I have every faith that voting mechanism reforms could be put in place which would be less expensive that 3 billion.

I say we just go for a show of hands!

that would discriminate against phocomeles, trace. you are a truly heartless bastard. i think it could cost less but consider that it's the gov who'll be doing the buying and what they've been known to pay for toilet seats.

if they are phocomeles, then how they hell can they vote with a ballot, touch screen, etc?????

irrelevant!

ok

dave, i missed you while i was on sorabji hiatus. have you thought about packing up the kid and the spouse-equivalent and the pets and moving to the desert southwest and applying for a job where i work: www.prolaw.com we have a cafeteria plan that reimburses childcare expenses. it works like this: you pay into the plan and it comes out of your pre-tax income. then you pay for your childcare and get reimbursed. what do you really save? the taxes on the cost of your childcare. and we have a little day care for the employees' children, which is not free but which lets you run over and see the kids at lunch and stuff. for the 4 and overs i think it's montessori based education, too, or maybe it's the 3 and overs, or even the 2 and overs. it's the ones that aren't infants anymore. i played with the kids a little yesterday. so. think about it. HAPPY BIRTHDAY AGATHA!!!!

we got a cafeteria plan. i choose not to participate. i have nothing to write off. yeah dave, i heard that.....i also heard some sound bites of James Carvel...he was just sitting back smiling...saying the same thing.you are right, the votes will eventually be counted...Bush knows damn well he didnt win, not only did he loose the popular vote, but he lost the vote in florida and subsequently the electoral college. an illegitimate prez thats "legitimate". have you seen him lately....he looks horrible, slouched over, his brow crumbled up. he's not ready for this.....he's knows he's in for a 4 year beating. if anyone should conceed its him. the fix was on in FL.... and i suspect over the next 4 years its gonna back fire. our fears about he supreme pizza court nominations should subside, as it is going to be difficult to get a senate confirmation....he's gonna have to go with a moderate...and these particular nominees are gonna be examined carefully. Who recalls the confirmations Clinton made? Bush? (other than that A.Scalia lapdog C.Thomas) How about Reagan? Most of those nominations went unnoticed....with the exception of Sandra Day...and thats because shes was the first woman to be put up on the bench....... eitherway

Hmm,funny how people see things,as I see it we are not so much a democracy as we are more of a federal republic,from that slant,I think Bush won,but that's just me.Dave what do you do? My husband works for an excellent company,10 K,day care,good benifits,and they are hiring.The company Christmas party is this Sat.,they are having steak and chicken,ice cream and fruit smoothies,corn dogs and chicken drumsticks for the kids,cotton candy and kettle corn,carnival rides and booths,roaming ballon artist and magicians,face painting and caricaturist,can you tell I'm looking forward to this? Also where I live is like a silicone valley,Intell,Moterola.....

thanks, honey. email me, i have a question for you.

that would be directed to margret, in case that wasn't clear.

Big wet ones Agatha. Hope your reentry anniversary is all that it can be.

ditto!!!! dave, i know how you are about holidays......but im confident you are doing some sweet for the lass.........RIGHT? id offer to babysit assuming a)you'd ever leave your kid alone with the mrs and I (i swear we'd smoke outside) b) we lived in the same town

i don't really need daycare anymore. i need LOTS of cash. i don't even really care about options. the company i currently work for may be beyond help. we were just rated junk by moody's and s&p is sure to follow. i gotta get out. fucking road flaggers make more than i do. gotta go to work.

Did you get that link I sent Agatha?

one more soapbox id like to stand on regarding the election......its becoming more and more apparent the fickle public is yielding their idiocy in polls and the media. thinking Gore should conceed simply because they are tired of the issue.......wtf????? fickle fickle fickle!!!!!!! these are the same people that pay attention once every 4 years......and then go to sleep politically in the interim.....and now their attentions spans are spent. fuck them! Gore is doing everything he is allowed to do LEGALLY and CONSTITUTIONALY. There is no frivilous lawsuit invloved here.....and by just saying "he should just give up" well......its bullshit....he is allowed by law to contest the votes. When you consider that the 10,000 odd illegal absentee votes in Seminole and Martin counties, that republicans filled in info but denied dems to do the same...THAT alone could turn the election in Gore's favor. whatever...i think he should fight as long as he is allowed to fight legally and constitutionally. *stepping down*

Oh, who really gives a shit who the president is? He is just a figure head. Seriously. But I think the cabinet bush wants to put together looks pretty good so far. Powell, Schwartzcoff, etc.

yeah....great....bunch of military types...war heros? blahblahblah he's putting together a cabinet of warmongers he already has Cheney on his bill......former secretary of defense. bush's cabinet scares me.

Bush always has been good at finding people to do his thinking for him. I personally agree with Newsweek's assessment, that whoever ends up in teh White House is going to be viewed as illegitimate by a large portion of the population, a "bastard" if you will. I think that the best thing for the Dems would be to concede, and build on the outrage among loyal democrats to increase their party. A Bush victory almost certainly guarantees a Democratic Majority congress in 2 years. The reverse is probably as likely. Bush can't really even get away with screwing up the supreme court, since his appointees will have to get through an evenly split congress, and in 2 years, a probable Democratic congress. as above, reverse is likely. Four years of stagnation. ehh.

Our economy likes stagnation, no one to rock the boat. This may help stem off the impending tanking that it is getting ready to do.

nope, i got no link. was it a job posting or something?

Yes,I sent it to agatha's uswest e-mail address and sent her some birthday cards too,I wonder if she got them? I'll send it again.

Shit,just saw the WAYD board.I'll try again.

Trace: Our economy likes stagnation? WTF? That's patently untrue. Our economy only works if it keeps growing and growing and growing. More capital, more product. Ideally, we're in the upward spiral. Higher earnings, higher stock prices, higher wages. moremoremore.

No, the stock market likes government stagnation. No one to rock the boat. Bank on it

y'all need to stop paying attention to the media. especially you, patrick. it isn't the way you think it is.

What a load of crap Trace. The stockmarket insiders make their money when the market varies...stagnation is bad for business. Last year, I got a return of 33% from my US sharemarket trust fund...and it wasn't because the government was stagnate.

I think what Trace is saying is that the stock market likes it when the government is stagnant, causing it to not interefere with the economy. Of course it also likes it when the government hands out corporate welfare, but that's another story...

why do i need to stop paying attention to the media? what is the way it is nate?

And that's the way it is...

see? what did I tell you? that whole business about the absentee applications that had voter id numbers filled in by repubs: 1) the repubs pre-printed the information on the applications before sending them out. the printer failed to include the voter id number. 2) the repubs requested permission to write in the voter id numbers on the applications and were granted that permission. 3) it wouldn't make sense for the dems to have the same "right" (not that they would have been denied), because all the applications were sent to repub voters. 4) this was probably illegal, HOWEVER: 5) every application was sent in by a registered voter (to throw them out would be to disenfranchise them on a technicality) 6) there is no way to determine which votes were cast by the voters whose applications were incomplete (the lawsuits requested that all absentee votes in a county to be thrown out-- disenfrancising even more people.) --- Gore's whole mess is due to his desire to have every vote counted. even if the vote was thrown out due to a technicality (because chad got preggers by some old jewish woman, or something.) except when the votes are for bush in which case, the votes should be thrown out on a technicality. it's garbage. twisted. politics as usual. the media tends to spin it differently, though. eh?

im going to the darkroom tonight to work on my prints for the gallery show. my cats' names are as follows Isabella and Karenin (short for Karenina) i just got a brainfrying of a lecture on a particulary pain in the ass software called Dynamics. i dont see much of anything right now except TPS reports... i'll get back to you later assmunch

nate, have you found a good source on the web that explains the absentee-ballots/incomplete-application/republicans-filling-in-voter-id-numbers issue that you just outlined? I have not been keeping up, but this specific issue sounds like an interesting little side dish.

Nate, if a Clinton or Gore supporter said, "...what he did was probably illegal, HOWEVER..." you'd rip him a new asshole. Give me a break!

he'd probably rip new assholes on everyone if he could man......the more asses to plunge the better in his mind

I was at the bowling alley last night,they were having a contest,guess how many Fruity Pebbles are in the fishbowl and you win free bowling for a year,cereal boxes hanging from the ceiling even.I thought to myself,"Self how could you figure out how to count the Fruity Pebbles"?I decided the only way I could count them was by hand,then how many of the Fruity Pebbles would disintegrate by my holding them and counting them,quite a few I suppose,and if I counted them again I would lose even more.Catch the pebble from my hand grasshopper and throw it at Al.Peace,Love and a Buttfuck.

are your hands all sweaty and nasty?

Nope,wash with Dial,it's anti-bacterial.Shit Dave it's 12:30 here,what time is it there?

And did you get that link?

i think it was 11:15. i never asked her. send it to me.

Would have been much better with Lucky Charms.

cyst - http://www.msnbc.com/msn/495856.asp it's all there. if you watch TV or listen to the short radio news briefs, you miss the big picture. antigone - "Nate, if a Clinton or Gore supporter said, "...what he did was probably illegal, HOWEVER..." you'd rip him a new asshole. " i'm not in the bush camp. i think the people elected gore and the system elected bush. in response to your statement, read what I wrote. filling in the voter id's may be criminal, but it is not the voters who cast the ballots that committed the crime. registered voters voted. had their applications been thrown out, they would not have received their ballots and they would have then known they needed to find another way to vote. bush has won, the system is flawed, god save the queen.

amen sister.

a coworker brought this to my attention have you noticed the little texas bbq going on our gov't.? prez-TEXAS majority leader-Tom Delay TEXAS house whip-Dick Army TEXAS VP-Cheney (though not orig) from TEXAS ummmm uhhhhhhh oil special interest alaskan drilling fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck uhhhhh but jeb will NOT be appointed to any cabinets

If I had to find someone to be the house whip, I would be definitely going for a person called Dick...just so I could be infantile and giggle every time I thought about House Whip Dick.

the sooner we run out of oil the sooner we'll start using cleaner technologies.

great idea, nate. let's be sure to spoil absolutely everything we currently have before moving on to better things.

"Burn A Barrel For The Electric Car!!!!!"

exactly! that's why I don't recycle. sooner we use up this earth, sooner we get a new one!

What do Nate and Patrick think about your electric bills,is it as bad as I hear in CA?

it's not so bad up north. though we're at level 3 emergency today. we send our juice out of state. it's fucked up.

Kinda makes you want to get a home fuel cell, doesn't it?

No, just makes you want to throw another yank on the barbie.

speaking of electric cars, check this site out: http://www.cseti.org Check out some of that shit, the guy actually beleives it, I heard him on the radio yesterday

J, im in LA...and well LA city is still a municple system. We haven't had any problems. My electric bill has not changed. The people in San Diego are the ones getting screwed. I heard they stopped sending water via the aqauduct to help save juice. NoCal doesnt like sending water our way.

That cseti site is a lot of freaky shit! And, ya know, some people also believe that once a pile of loaves and fishes fed a crowd of 5000 people, and that some dude was hung on a cross and came back to life three days later. The things people come up with!

That's right, bitch.

That was my thought Antigone. One last mention of the election: http://thehixons.homestead.com/maps.html

trace, your html is weak. that page was blank. unless opera is weak. if so, nevermind.

I think it was opera......

It wasn't blank for me, but the argument was weak. By that logic, the voters in Death Valley have the same weight as the voters in Manhattan. That makes sense, doesn't it?

There's a question on that page, Trace, that asks "Do these maps have you seeing red?" My answer is, "Yes, because someone would be stupid enough to make this argument."

You are so fucking right, MANHATTAN IS GODDAMN MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE!

I didn't say that.

Substitute any populated area with the same square miles as Death Valley, and my point still stands. I used Manhattan as an example because it is densely populated.

Take, for example, Dallas or Houston...

I was just pissing..........

you're a dumbshit, trace. that's ok, and all... this is a free forum. sort of. but you know, i read that stupid people often don't realize that they are stupid.

Actually, I am very disgusted with the Republicans in florida right now. Even if they win, I do not think I agree they should. According to the newspaper, republican voter registration workers were allowed to correct flawed absontee applications, so only the republican ones got corrected. That is dirty politics.

Well for the love of God,use the toilet!

Nate, you are a fuck face, and i really dont give a shit what you think of me.

Oh, Natey disagrees with someone and that makes them stupid

j, i thought i was

J--he might miss...

No, I can control my dick, thanks

Well, that is enough shooting off at the mouth for me. Like I said, I am sickened by the republicans now, and i dont like the democrats, so i could care less who wins......... I hope that they cannot decide and the entire state of FL is invalidated. Gore would win, but at this point who cares

Sorry I called you stupid up there, Trace. I should have said that your argument was stupid. I'd just read about the Seminole and Martin county cases and my republican co-workers were trotting around the office gloating. You just got some of the overflow. It pisses me off that you can commit a felony in an election, and the results still stand. But I can't think of any better way for the Bush administration to start. :-)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001208/ts/election_supreme_dc_5.html heh heh heh. well, not better. just funny.

WHOA!!!!!!!!!! actually i totally understand the notion of not disenfranchising the votes in those two counties, however, votes everywhere, all the time, get disallowed due to technicalities, hardly the fault of the voter. Unfortunately because FL is being so polarized right now, the hearts would bleed for those disenfranchised. Tough call. However this situation with the FL Supreme Court is shocking, i totally expected them to end it. A gasp of air for Gore. i fully admit to being an idiot, and i am totally comfortable wth it.

oh, thank god. or whoever.

What was great about the FL supreme's decision is that they said that all undervotes in the whole state shoudl be counted. Finally!

i havent read the entire story....what exactly are you referring to when you say "undervotes". legal votes that were't counted simply because thay ran out of time?

dimpled chads. it's a good time to be named chad, eh? anybody happen to read the new ender book?

Not just dimpled chads. An undervote is a ballot that was valid but did not register a vote for president when counted by machine.

ahhh when i think of "dimpled chads" i think of a Kids in the Hall skit.... "30 Mary's agree.......(picture of 30 women named Mary) eating meat is the right thing to do" or what ever the tag line is. "30 Dimpled Chads agree........" picture 30 cheeky, freckled, dimpled people named Chad

our office redneck was just shouting "IF THAT GODDAMN GORE IS PRESIDENT I AIN'T PAYING NO MORE TAXES"

poor guy. i'm sure he's grossly underpaid, too. damn shame. you go, office redneck! you're an american hero!

HEy, if you don't pay your taxes, how are they gonna pay for wellfare checks????? Anyway, who cares, it's all bullshit. I was driving home listening to the talking heads on the radio and realized that this whole florida thing is like a bad movie script. First off, who would buy a ticket to see this horseshit? Secondly, all during the campaign, at least as far back as in the spring, i remember hearing Florida is going to be the deciding state. Then, the week preceding the election on the 7th, they said "It is going to be a very close race, and most likely one canidate will win the popular vote, and one, most likely Gore, will win the electoral vote." Then, we all watched what happened that night. Florida was declared for gore before the poles closed. then bush started complaining that it was too early to call florida, then later the networks reversed it and called it too close to call, then it was called for bush, gore called to conceed the race, then they called florida too close to call, so gore retracted his concession. recount (first one demanded by law) after recount, decision goes to appeal, then goes to decicion then goes to appeal, gore wins appeal, bush wins decision, gore wins appeal. They certify the vote, it gets appealed, a new deadline is set, it gets appealed, a new deadline is set, and a new certification is set, then it gets appealed. Now it comes down to this: 1. Florida's governor is the "winning" canidates brother. 2. If the us supreme pizza court refuses newest appeal, then it goes back to the hands of bush's brother's state with bush's party in control of the senate.- That ends up in a constitutional crisis because there is no way the democrats would or should accept that. It goes to the congress and the senate. the congress is mostly republican, so they will choose bush, the sentate will be split 50/50, sending it to the president of the senate, Al Gore..... 3. If the us supreme court hears the case and upholds the first appeal but turns the second appeal over, then bush wins. The fact of the matter is this: The second article of the US constitution plainly states that the legislature, not the courts, decides who is the president. Which leads us back to the sentate issue again. What the fuck?

Yeah, well, try this for a scenario...

Yeah. My father told me over the phone today. I'd given up on the scene, but apparently, there are a few laughs left. That's good. Nate, you fuck face you. At the (gladly taken) risk of sounding like a broken record: power to govern should, and ultimately DOES come from the will of the governed. Gore got more votes. Period, the end. I REALLY don't like Gore, but more people came out and voted for him than for anyone else, so until people get off their asses and decide that they don't like the way things are being run, he should be in charge. Of course, in a perfect world, there would be a vote of confidence every 6 months.

as i'm sure you know, Tom, just because most of the people in california think that pot should be legal for certain people, it does not make it so. the federal government has laws, and the system needs to be abided by until changed. that makes this a lawful society. the computer is good. i am happy. ther is an old person in my yard. shit. mm. j-dubs. i let my robe slip open so she could see my penis. ooooo. she's on my land, it's my choice. anyway. the people elected gore, the system elected bush. and now we are in a vomitesque mess that means no-one is elected. there is and will not be a president. you are free to walk about the plane. if the vote gets to gore, congress can decide that gore is the man, but ultimately Jeb has to sign the purchase request. however, the senate has to vote for the president of the senate if there is none. that would likely be the lieb, and that would make lieb the VP. then, and even if dub won. the system is flawed! take arms! take arms!

courts suck. judges suck. law sucks.

tv sucks. i've been realizing that you can't have an informed discussion on anything that goes on with someone who gets all of their news from the tv. at least, from network news. the lack of depth leads to disturbing loss of understanding.

check out c-span and listen to the callers. that's america.

No, that's C-Span geeks.

i wonder if it's any better in france. i hear the europeons listen to more techno.

"the federal government has laws, and the system needs to be abided by until changed." "the system is flawed! take arms! take arms! " "the people elected gore, the system elected bush. " My contention is this: We NEED to change the system now. If we let "the system," overrule the people which said system supposedly (alliteration!) serves, well, then, where are we? *appropriately cynical voice* fuck the system! power to the people! like has been said: fuck TV. the media and "the system" (oh, I really DO hate saying that over and over) picked the candidates for us, anyhow. blah.

the only problem is that if we can retroactively change the system to allow the results of the election to be other than they are, we open the door for a dictator in four years. which isn't all bad, but i don't plan to come into power that way. enjoy.

right, then. Let's disqualify them both and start over. I, personally, am quite tickled with the idea of Strom Thurmond as President.

Election laws should be changed, absolutely. But, as most of us learned in preschool or kindergarden, you do not change the rules after you start the game, you change them after the game is over and before you start the next. The rules were the same the last 100 games, and you can't change them because you don't like the result

By the way, I beleive nothing and have no faith in anything I read that is published by the media. It is all biased and full of opinions instead of fact. Twist twist twist, spin spin spin. I read in newseek over the weekend nothing but "Poor Gore" this and "poor gore" that. It said, and I quote, "Reporters were scrambling and tripping over eachother trying to dig up some scandal on Katherine Harris" and "A few minutes before the media launched "All Al All the Time" media coverage to convince the American Public that the 2000 election was not over, and Al Gore should win the election", and newsweek was a very liberal publication. Watch TV, read magazines, and let your brain turn to mush. Let that TV do the thinking for you. Beleive it, you drooling fools! Watch as our constitution is shredded, and laugh about it, and drool some more.

You know, Bush really DOES look like ALfred E. Neuman.

i hear fucking banjos whenever i see a picture of that guy.

this is a farely good read on the election.......she is usually pretty sharp in her columns....she can be inflammatory but otherwise sharp. http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2000-12-07/stewart.html

is it over yet?

"Hey, if you don't pay your taxes, how are they gonna pay for wellfare checks?????" fuck! does anyone get it? where i live almost everyone is like trace. damn republican freaks. i have to get out of here.

I am not a freak. And Nixon was not a crook. And clinton did not smoke pot, or monica, or kathleen willy. and george washington did cut down a cherry tree. and the buck did stop (litteraly) at truman's desk.

Nixon wasn't half bad. Ok he was half bad, but he did a lot of good things for civil rights, the environment and such. If he hadn't been so paranoid and evil the other part of the time...

This is too funny... *** AUSTIN, Tx (Dec. 11) - Attorneys for Texas Governor George W. Bush filed suit in federal court today, seeking to prevent Santa Claus from making his list and then checking it twice. The complaint seeks an immediate injunction against the beloved Christmas icon, asking the court to effectively ban his traditional practice of checking the list of good boys and girls one additional time before packing his sleigh. The suit, filed in the Federal District Court of Austin, Texas, asks a federal judge to "hereby order Mr. Claus to cease and desist all repetitive and duplicative list-checking activity, and certify the original list as submitted, without amendment, alteration, deletion, or other unnecessary modification." "There are no standards for deciding who is naughty, and who is nice. It's totally arbitrary and capricious. How many more times does he need to check? This checking, checking, and e-checking over and over again must stop now," said former Secretary James Baker. Baker further claimed that unnamed GOP observers witnessed an elf removing all boys named Justin from the 'nice' list, filing them under 'naughty' instead because "everyone knows all boys named Justin are brats." Gov. Bush cited the potential for unauthorized list tampering, and blasted what he called the "crazy, crazy mess up there at the North Pole." "Their security is really awful, really bad," said Bush. "My mother just walked right in, told 'em she was Mrs. Claus. They didn't check her ID or nothing." Meanwhile, Dick Cheney, Gov. Bush's running mate, issued a direct plea to St. Nick himself. "Mr. Claus, I call on you to do the honorable thing, and quit checking your list. The children of the world have had enough. They demand closure now," Cheney said, adding that his granddaughter has already selected a name for the pony she's asked for. The Rev. Jesse Jackson was quick to respond to this latest development with plans to lead his protesters from Florida to the North Pole via dogsled. The "Million Man Mush" is scheduled to leave Friday. "We need red suits and sleighs, not law suits and delays," Jackson said. Santa Claus could not be reached for comment, but a Spokes-elf said he was "deeply distressed" by news of the pending legal action against him. "He's losing weight, and he hasn't said 'Ho Ho' for days," said the spokes-elf. "He's just not feeling jolly."

i like jesse jackson's quip.

"Watch as our constitution is shredded, and laugh about it." Gladly. The constitution. I'm trying to remember that one. Was that the one in which black citizens only counted as 3/5 of a person? Or, no. the constitution was the one which only allowed white, land-owning males to have any say in anything. right. Isn't the constitution also that thing which (in a land constantly lauded for it's "democratic ideals,") while it drones on and on about representation and the importance of every mans input, allows it's leader to be chosen by an aristocracy with only nominal responsibility to the people they supposedly represent? Yeah. let's shred that shit. first lets nip out the bits that don't work, and paste in stuff that we like more. That's the way the game works. And we can't wait until the game is over, Trace, as sad as it may seem for George W. Bush. the next four years will be a lame duck term; phenomonally boring, lulling the American people back into their usual blissful ignorance as "Uncle Sam" continues to bilk and abuse them. We have to, as the saying goes, strike while the iron is hot. Change the rules now, while people are pissed off; while people realize what a fucked up political cul-de-sac they've constructed for themselves. As soon as this is over, people will stop thinking about it. This is SUCH a great opportunity to pull the wool away from the eyes of so many people. There hasn't been a better time for a revolution since... I dunno. longtime. outta steam already. see?

I see your point, and I do have to agree with it. It is unfortunate that it would have to work that way. I almost laughed my ass of the other day when I was listening to the radio (am station). They said "Our founding fathers were wise beyond thier years". No, they were just the same as they are today, and flawed. But, if we tried to write the constitution today, I don't think it could be done

Beyond the Supreme Court: 6 Ways Al Gore Can Still Become the 43rd President by Bob Fertik Co-founder, Democrats.com 212-396-3457 While thousands of Americans have eloquently urged the Supreme Court to count every vote, there is little optimism that the Court will actually do so. Rather, it appears clear that a narrow partisan majority will nullify rule for George W. Bush, regardless of the facts before them. But even if the Supreme Court rules against Al Gore, there are at least 6 ways that Al Gore could become the 43rd President of the United States, consistent with the will of the majority of Americans and Floridians - who voted on Election Day. 1. George Bush can concede for the good of the nation. There has been tremendous pressure on Al Gore to concede, despite his winning the popular vote by over 337,000 votes. But what about George W. Bush? It is bad enough that Bush intends to assume the Presidency despite losing the popular vote. But it is immoral that Bush should claim a narrow victory in the Electoral College on the basis of a sorely disputed victory in Florida. The moral weight of the nation should fall upon George W. Bush to gracefully concede the election to the candidate with the stronger moral claim to victory, namely Al Gore. 2. Al Gore can still win Florida. Remember Seminole and Martin Counties? Yes, the Democrats lost in court. But on Monday at 9 a.m., Gerald Richman will appeal the Seminole case to the Florida Supreme Court. Richman believes Judge Nikki Clark erred when she acknowledged illegal conduct by Republican operatives, but refused to follow the remedy required under Florida law: namely, to reject all 15,000 absentee ballots. On Friday, the Florida Supreme Court overruled another trial court decision, the ruling by N. Sanders Saul. If the Florida Supreme Court chooses to apply Florida law, Al Gore will win Florida's 25 votes, and become the 43rd President of the United States. 3. The 32 Electors from Texas can be disqualified. Remember the 12th Amendment challenges to the 32 Electors from Texas? Lower courts have ruled that Dick Cheney became an "inhabitant" of Wyoming simply by dropping in for a day to get a voter registration card. But this case is on appeal to the Supreme Court, and it only takes four Justices to agree to hear the case. The four angry dissenters inthe Florida case Breyer, Ginsburg, Souter, and Stevens may be angry enough to put this case before the American people. 4. A Democratic state legislature can nullify Florida. Remember the Special Session of the Florida Legislature to choose Electors? The Republicans rounded up numerous Constitutional scholars to argue that it was perfectly legal for state legislatures to override the will of the voters of their state. Well, Democrats can play that game too. Democrats control the legislatures of eight states that voted for Bush: Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, and West Virginia. If any ONE of these states switches its electors to Gore, then Gore wins regardless of Florida and the Supreme Court. 5. Three Republican Electors can switch to Gore. The Electoral College is comprised of people, not machines. These people have consciences. In the majority of states, Electors are not bound by law to vote for the candidate to whom they were pledged. If there was a groundswell of opinion against a stolen election, it is not impossible to imagine 3 Republican electors (out of 271) doing the right thing. 6. Republican Members of Congress can switch parties, or simply vote with the Democrats to refuse to count Florida's 25 Electors. During the impeachment, a number of Republicans in Congress refused to go along with Tom DeLay and Trent Lott. In the House, seven Republicans voted against two of the three counts: Michael Castle (DE), Phil English (PA-21), Amo Houghton (NY-31), Peter King (NY-3), Connie Morella (MD-8), Chris Shays (CT-4), and Mark Souder (IN-4). If five of the seven switch, the Democrats would control the House. In the Senate, five Republicans voted against both counts: John Chafee (RI recently replaced by his son, Lincoln), Susan Collins (ME), Jim Jeffords (VT), Olympia Snowe (ME), and Arlen Specter (PA). It would take only one switch to give Democrats control of the Senate. As Yogi Berra famously said, "It ain't over till it's over."

Interesting... In one of Gore's many recent speeches, he said that electors should go with their state, though, because they are supposed to represent their state. I wonder what he would say if some decided to switch...

that is asuming you beleive every peice of bull shit you see on tv or read in the paper. I dont think Gore won at all. Period. I dont think I really know who one, and if they declared Gore the winner or Bush, I would question the validity of the statement. The popularity vote here is still very narrow, so who's to say? You want to start couting undervotes? Really? How can you do that? An undervote is one where no president is voted for, but they choose other canidates in other races. Maybe, I know this may seem far fetched, but maybe the person did not want to vote for president at all? I wish I had not. What has happened is nothing new, or shocking, or wrong. It was just brought into this light this time around, and that is all. I also heard they were challenging over votes, where both canidates were selected. Now how in the hell can you do that? Lets see, if a dimple is counted as a vote (and if there is a dimple in both chad, what then, which dimple is bigger?) then if one hole is bigger then the other on over votes, this biggest hole wins?

Trace, if Bush really won, then why is he trying to stop recounts? Explain that. And there were more than two candidates, last time I checked. Also, last time I checked, not too many Holocaust survivors were voting for Hitler apologists. How about if there is a hanging chad for Gore? How about if the vote choice is obvious to a human but becuase of a fault in the machine, the machine can't register it? Hanging chads don't just happen, someone had to poke at it. Isn't that intent of a vote? How many people really don't vote for president, but vote for everything else? That seems a lot more far fetched to me than arguing that lots of people do that very thing. Dimpled chads should be counted, but only if there aren't any othe dimples on the ballot. I think that's a clear intent. How about the fact that the vote machines in Palm Beach hadn't been cleaned out in years, possibly affecting how easy it is to punch out a chad completely? Maybe Bush should do the honorable thing and concede. After all, he lost the popular vote, and the honorable thing to do would be to recognize that the majority of the people do not want him for president, so he should go back to being bailed out of failed business ventures by his poppa.

"Trace, if Bush really won, then why is he trying to stop recounts? Explain that. " because there is a chance he didn't win. it doesn't mean he didn't win. the assumption that if there is a recount it will go in gore's favor is bunk. a fair recount would pull equal amounts of underdimpledpregnanthanging votes from bush heavy districts, and should return the same results (within the margin of error.) if there is a recount all districts need to be recounted. gore's plan is to only recount those districts that are gore heavy. he's just as bad as the village idiot. i'm sick of all the gore supporters. their ears are closed to anything short of gore is always right. a bunch of media zombies. you're no better than the religious right. michael moore's emails have become emotional to the point of being completely illogical. i'm very disappointed. shame on you all.

jill stewart hit a few points on the head here i recommend reading the entire article but i got a few paragraphs here..... http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2000-12-07/stewart.html "This truism, which to me has the weight of a mathematical law, is that the more partisan an expert, professor, lawyer, politician or pundit is, the dumber they become. For proof of this, I point to the incredible screw ups made by supposed legal genius Laurence Tribe, the Harvard Law School scholar who argued Vice President Al Gore's side before the U.S. Supreme Court last week. "Tribe and the partisan hordes, poring over state and federal laws, failed to find the key section in Article II of the U.S. Constitution that the Supreme Court used to send the case back to the Florida Supreme Court." "....suggested that Palm Beach County simply hold a new election so that everyone, including mush-headed voters who got confused by the "butterfly" ballot, could vote for their intended presidential choice. "Which homily shall I use? You cannot put toothpaste back in the tube? Time travel is possible only on Star Trek? Yet Tribe actually suggested in the Times that, to make sure the election was re-created and the same candidates got the same votes as on Election Day, voters would sign an affidavit swearing they had voted the same way." heh....yeah affadavit... "William Daley called in Democratic operatives to find voting irregularities in Florida (of any kind, anywhere). According to some media reports, nearly 100 operatives were in Florida by November 8 digging up stories -- everything from the Florida Highway Patrol allegedly putting a roadblock near a black polling place to the angry old ladies in Dade County who hated the butterfly ballot. (And you thought the hard-working media just stumbled onto those stories). "They stupidly chose Daley as the spokesman to decry voting problems in Florida. Daley? The son of the late Chicago Mayor Richard Daley who was widely suspected by historians of cheating to assure John F. Kennedy won in Chicago in 1960? Would Republicans ever choose an immediate relative of Tricky Dick Nixon to be their spokesperson decrying election irregularities? "The Gore camp's believability took a beating when it claimed that a "near-riot" by Republican partisans, who shouted, ran down a hall, and pounded on a door, had frightened the Miami-Dade County election board into stopping its hand recount. If that exuberant display -- in which not a soul was touched -- was a "near-riot," then three-quarters of the protests during the Democratic National Convention were "near-riots."

If anything has contributed to a near-riot,that would be Jesse Jackson down there trying to make it look like a racial thing.Why doesn't that mouthy little bastard get a real job? Has he ever even had a job? Don't tell me he's a Rev.,cause that's bullshit.

i've always been in favor of a state-wide, hand recount. anything less is worthless. i believe that was one of gore's initial proposals but bush rejected it. that was a mistake. this could have been over by now. it's all bush's fault. bush is a bad, bad man. who pays jesse?

i've always been in favor of a state-wide, hand recount. anything less is worthless. i believe that was one of gore's initial proposals but bush rejected it. that was a mistake. this could have been over by now. it's all bush's fault. bush is a bad, bad man. who pays jesse?

i think the best thing to do with jesse is disregard him, and the media has done ok in ignoring him. I think jesse is paid by private funds as well as the NAACP funds. I know he was paid big to come and help the teamsters out in the LA Bus/Subway strike. Im sure he gets paid big for speaking engagements to. Jesse gets paid, believe me he gets paid. Instead of nit picking for recounts i individual counties Gore should have contested it right away, not just in select counties, but the whole damn state election, district, state supreme and the national supreme courts. we could have done what we did in the last week in the first week after the election.