I heard a small report of this on NPR yesterday, as well as a bit on Nightline last night. It's happening in large and mid size cities all over. Middle-aged folks, families, singles, gay, straight, white, black, latino, asian and everyone else are moving themselves back into urban areas. Rennovating old run down buildings, bring new business into impoverished areas...generally making the quality of life better. Nightline featured Atlanta last night in discussing this and the drawbacks...something of particular interest to me. I've known this is happening from friends and seeing it myself. This article sums it up. Apparently many though, in Atlanta and elsewhere are up in arms because it's driving prices up and lower income, older residents out. Some say unfairly. This is tough. I have problems with the cultural homegenization that often inadvertantly happens during and after gentrification, but I guess I've never been in a situtation where I could no longer afford where i live. I blame developers and the city that offers unncessary deals to incite them to build. Developers work for the property owners and with the city to create a plan..."how can we make more money, more money, more money from this chunk of land?" they ask. I expect this from them. I also expect the gov't tp practice temperance when messign with demographics of a city. I have a problem with some of the older people, my grandparents can be included in this, who tend to wash it off with race. They were part of the "white flight" to the suburbs in the 60s and 70s . Today many of the inner city black residents who are being displaced are ill at the next generation whitey coming back in, raising rents. The mayor refuses to apologize for helping improve the quality of life in these neighborhoods. I applaud him for that, but grimace at the thought they have leveled some low income housing projects to make way for condos, apartments etc. There has to be harmony. They must coexist. Im just wondering what everyone else who lives in a major city has to say about this. I see it in LA. It has caused mega trouble in the Mission in San Francisco. Williamsburg is taking it in NY...along with surrounding neighborhoods. Dot.comer money has to go somewhere i suppose.

"Williamsburg is taking it in NY" I'm not sure that Williamsburg is suffering the same WASPy influx that you're talking about above. Williamsburg is a neighborhood in Brooklyn where Hasidic Jews and Latinos and Blacks already live side by side, not always comfortably. I think the latter two groups feel that the Hasidim get more favorable treatment by landlords and cops in the neighborhood. I think maybe some Soho-type artists are moving in too because of lower rents and larger apartments than Manhattan, but as far as I know, developers aren't ripping down the old tenaments and putting in glitzy new condos -- swine could talk about this better than me (he seems to mention Brooklyn fairly often in his posts).

i beg to differ Dougie. I've been there in the last year, I have friends there....its made mentioned in every "scene report" in hipster magazines. Greenpoint is also experiencing this as a Williamsburg adjacent. Gentrification, doesn't always require developers ripping tenaments. Atlanta's cityscape makes that more of an issue for them I have a friend in Williamsburg who started a boutique there, it was featured in Vogue recently...called the Corset Factory or something like that built in a rennovated undergarment factory. A string of new business has popped up there liek hers catering to the new wealth.

OK, I stand corrected. I must've let my subscriptions to my hipster mags lapse.

go there, see for yourself.

Yeah, will do. I want to check out Peter Luger's Steakhouse again too -- did you get there by the way, Patrick? It's a carnivore's wetdream.

not familiar with it. i lived on $1 beers and salami and cheese sandwiches while staying in Greenpoint. i love NY delis...LA has better taco stands though.

www.peterluger.com Next time you're here, definitely give it a go.

over the weekend I visited a friend's new rowhouse in portland. it's like five minutes from downtown in a formerly black area that's being gentrified. I knew that before. but what I didn't know was that it's part of a property tax-relief area. his property tax will be $200-300 a year for 10 years. as if anyone needed incentive to buy in a close-in area immediately adjacent to a similar area where home values have more than tripled in the last 10 years. it's not all bad, though. in portland the black areas seem like they're full of single-family homes instead of high-density apartments. that means that most of the longtime residents of the inner city are getting mega equity, while the suburban-home values of the white flighters have barely doubled since the 1970s.

our area's been completely ripped up by urban gentrification. there's been a large underground population here for many years...bikers, hippies, that sort of thing. but there's been a big influx of northerners coming down here & settling in; they claim that the deadheads & bikers offend them. the poor yuppie pukes are afraid of the big bad deadheads (anemic, pale, bongo-thumping vegan kids). so the local politicos have done everything in their power to weed out the "undesirables", including taking all their usual hangouts & converting them into mega-expensive restaurants, overpriced clothing boutiques & loft apartments. the homeless are systematically rounded up & moved out of the yuppies' field of vision (they live in shantytowns deep in the woods now, where the cops have already killed some of them). don't even get me started on gentrification. it's a fucking curse. why don't these freaks slither back home & gentrify their OWN damn towns? this region used to have character. now we've got barnes & noble, the gap, old navy & a thousand other trendoid joints that look just like their counterparts in any other city in the US. we've got these damn subdivisions springing up everywhere like ugly weeds. the houses in these subdivisions, i swear, all look exactly alike. it's hideous. diversity, hell. in ten years, if not tomorrow morning, every freakin' city in america will look exactly the same. but i've ranted about this here before, at length.

My area has become a wreck for the same reason. It makes me really sad that I could have bought a house here five years ago, and now I have to leave entirely, because it's getting but ugly, and expensive. Icky poo.

if you want to stay cool, you gotta keep moving. I would be happier than hell if they got the fucking bums and drunks out of my neighborhood. I'm sick of it. they used to hang out more in pioneer square, but then the neighborhood association there got all the local mini-marts to stop selling malt liquor. now they're talking about doing that in my neighborhood. one can only hope. I'm sick of being harassed for change. they are aggressive, drunk assholes. I don't feel sorry for them. I couldn't care less about them. I care way more about my petite female friends who get off work on the main drag after dark and have to feel threatened every fucking day. one day some stupid kid got mad that we didn't give him money because he had cut his arm, so he blocked our way and started waving his bloodied arm in front of us. goddamn. we're already a rich, gay neighborhood. can we please go yuppie now? can we sweet talk the local stores to stop selling cheap booze? can we be left alone by our smug, rich, banana republic-clad but otherwise inoffensive selves? please? if gentrification gets the drunks out, then bring it on, I say. I'd pay an extra $50 to not have to wonder if those people are going through my garbage bags in the dumpster or to be able to read a book in peace while waiting for the fucking bus. if only higher rents would help! higher booze prices is what we need.

its tough being a hot chick and riding public transporation. the wife has stories, as Im sure you do. gentrification has definitly dulled gang activity in our area. we have a handful of bums along sunset that are "regulars", police pretty much leave them alone, all they do is dig through dumpsters and recycle shit. They are too whacked out of their mind to fuck with people walking around. i have found gay neighborhoods to be the most even-keeled, mellow neighborhoods to live in. in my area, men skip across cross walks.

and i really hate when people go through my garbage. bastards, who do they think they are.

the "bums" they ran off around here weren't threatening at all. not aggressive. not a problem. very few of them were even "spanging" (begging for spare change). the spangers are usually just hippies passing through on their way to the next rainbow gathering. for some reason, this area is a popular connection for the rainbow crowd. some of the poor folks around here dumpster-dive w/ their families (it's kinda fucked up watching 5-year-olds scouring the dumpsters, if only for the memories it brings me of being dragged out to do the same damn thing when i was a kid). i don't care if they dumpster dive at my place...i just wish they didn't HAVE to. i'd like to start donating food to the local shelters...but not shelters that make people take up certain religious beliefs before getting help. also, i'd as soon be cooking the food myself--working the soup kitchen, so i'd KNOW it was going out to the people, instead of getting smuggled home (i know a number of charity workers who stole tons of donated shit, including some folks who made an assload of money stealing & reselling donated stuff on eBay). gay neighborhoods rock. wish i were living in one.

im not sure why people going through your trash is bothersome. The people that go through our trash are looking for items to recycle or eat. Since my apartment bldg doesn't have the city recycle service, i consider it a good thing they are recycling for me.

it's bothersome when they spread it all over the street or neighborhood.

not mine. I love living in an area where the commute to downtown is a 15-minute walk downhill, but I'm sick of drunken asshole beggars harassing me. I'd care more about homeless people if it weren't for the homeless people themselves. I told you guys about that time when I was waiting for the bus last week? there was another normal person waiting for the bus as well. then a drunk came up and stood there. fine. he didn't talk to us. but then another one came over. then a third. at that point the normal guy freaked out and left. which pissed me off. like, hello, whatever happened to white-collar solidarity? we are the ones waiting for the bus. the drunks should not be allowed to run us off. so then after the normal guy left, one of the drunks started hassling me hardcore. I didn't want him to touch me, but I wasn't going to miss the bus because of him, like the other guy did. and they're never kids who scrounge through the garbage. they're grown men who just don't fucking belong in my alley where I have to park my car and take out the recycling. my parents saw one when they visited me and now they're all worried. yes, I'm going to move. I'm going to support the anti-malt liquor thing, and then I am just going to let them win. maybe I'll move eight blocks up, like everyone else is doing.

SARCASM inject a few curses. this recent display is making me crazy. not even the attempt at humor is working. yes go live with the NORMAL people

I don't want people going through my garbage. that is not weird of me. it doesn't belong to them. there are signs saying that the dumpsters are for the use of residents only. and that's bullshit that they're just looking for something to eat. what do you think they would do with a receipt with a credit card number on it? I should just get a fucking shredder. I don't want people to go through my things. and I don't want to have to burn everything I need to discard. I don't want to have to figure out where exactly I am going to put my bag of trash when I go out and already there's some guy there picking through the dumpster.

normal people don't harass and threaten strangers. the bums can go be drunk all day if they want, fine, as long as they leave me out of it. these are not frightened, battered mothers who are out there bothering me. these are scary men who try to terrify young women into giving them money so they can buy liquor. fuck them.

Oh yeah, bring back the slums. Let's provide more dumpsters for the homeless. Crimson, I've heard you crap on about "gentrification" before and I've wept as you described how the artistes had to bear the horrible sight of families in their station wagons. It's armageddon with twin airbags and a baby-capsule. What about all the middle class farming folk who inhabited the town before the noble "underground" population of bikers and hippies moved in? Bet they're standing up cheering to see some money come into their town. Don't think you'll see any tears from them as they wave bye bye to the stoners who think the street is one big garbage can. And while I'm having a little rant - I'm sick of the fucking position on these boards that it's hip to be poor and struggling. It's bloody reverse peer pressure. I've been two days without food because I didn't have the money to eat, and it was not cool and it was not a fashion statement. So for the record: I'm pretty rich and I'm proud. I get manicures. I wear fuck-me shoes and I'll pay $300 for them if I like them enough. I have a house cleaner because I don't like doing toilets. I have a great car. I don't shop at what you call Walmart. Sometimes I buy second hand clothes, but only because I like beautiful fabrics. I don't wear labels on the outside. I like it that you never know if I'm wearing a $2 silk top from Bangkok or a $300 Armani shirt. One day I'd like to have a beach house. I love my home and I'm really proud of how much people like hanging out there. Some of my friends are poor, some are incredibly wealthy, all of them know where my liquour cabinet is. My work is mostly enjoyable and stimulating, but I'm doing it because it pays well. That's me. They are my choices. Don't you dare judge me on the basis of what I have or how I choose to live my life. I will love you if you make me laugh, everything else is just bra padding. I think I'm about done with the rant now. I sure as hell feel better, how about you?

CHRIST now i remember why i dig you. you sound like nico. did we talk about the brazilian wax thing? heather dear, i lost to ability to discern your sarcasm and seriousness a long time ago. consider that a compliment that i regard everything you say with the utmost attention. but now that you have made it crystal, im laughing. cyst your frustation underdstandable. nico was sick and tired of being messed with by bums and weirdos, creepin her out. Im glad it makes more sense now for me to take the train. no one ever cat calls me, or makes masturbation gestures...i should be so lucky. as far as credit card receipts and whatnot....i just make sure i don't put ANY receipts in the trash.I save all receipts, cash, credit what have you. I'm pretty conscious of personal materials that go in the trash. Sometimes, if there issomething of concern, i'll rip it in two, and put on in one trash can and the other in another. I rarely do ALL the trash at the same time. actually i was just re reading that.....we have a lot in common. I too have friends that are dirt poor and others that are filthy rich. they all keep their liquor cabinets open to me, liquor or not.

$300 for a pair of shoes is absurd. how many third world abortions could that pay for? jesus christ you people confuse me sometimes. and what's with this "owning my garbage" crap? how do you own your fucking garbage? it's shit you don't want. why shouldn't someone else benefit from what you don't want? that's why dogs eat cat shit. and never put your credit card numbers in your trash. that is ridiculous. you don't even want to know how much computer and music equipment i've seen mail ordered, ups'd and swiped off the neighbor's doorstep on dumpster-dived CCN's. you wouldn't put your savings on your doormat. gentrification is a great thing to happen to the hardworking poor who are smart enough to live within their means, save their money, and buy a place to live in a dirt poor neighborhood. gentrification is a godawful thing when they tear out your favorite corner pub to throw up a mcdonalds. when the barnes and noble goes up across the street from the best indy bookseller in the county and forces it out of business. but it's not the government's fault. it's not the county or the city council. it's the consumer. every capitalist votes with cash, and there is no way ANY of this could happen if it wasn't economically feasable to do so. so the population fucks itself. the very people you weep for.

indeed. somebody has to be going to the starbucks to make it feasible to keep it open. unfortunately, such large companies can afford losses at one locale with the earnings of another where its the only joint around. also, if someone does get a hold of your credit card and makes purchases, credit companies have policies that protect you from unauthorized purchases.

you're liable for $50. but it's a hassle. in addition, you rarely have such protection with an ATM debit card. which can be used up to a daily limit (defaults high, usually $2500-$3000) and you are 100% liable.

Just because I believe first world countries should support starving nations, I'm not allowed to buy Blahnik shoes? I don't see the relationship between the two. My conscience is my business, lay off. Anyway, can someone show me where in the Sorabji Nation laws it says I have to be consistent? I am deeper and shallower than you will ever know, Purdyboy.

yeah, yeah. I have never thrown away an intact credit card receipt. I know. but to say that all beggars want from the trash is a little heel of bread or whatever is patently absurd. I watched a show once where a news crew followed a homeless dude around, and he showed them how you could find not just credit card numbers but social security numbers with names and dates of birth. he called that one "the golden trash can." I wanted to donate my banana peels to charity, I'd take them to the goddamn food bank. for use of residents only. unauthorized use prohibited. do not play on or around. sometimes grocery stores throw bleach on their garbage to discourage bums from getting in to the fenced-off area, eating rotten food, and then suing for damages. if I didn't think it was bad enough that I throw plastic bags away to go sit in some landfill, I'd consider similar action. but I'm not going to go around dumping bleach. anyway, they would have no legitimate interest in my trash. I never bring junk food in the house. I only throw out stuff like yogurt gone bad.

this is the relationship: you want to spread the cost of abortions in third world countries across a populous of which: 1) a signifigant portion feels abortion is murder and 2) a signifigant portion cannot justify spending $300 on a pair of shoes (especially when they join an established, marcosian collection.)

yuck. anyway, patrick. you said 'but'. now that you know what i meant you're laughing? at me? with me? this whole thing has me very confused.

crimson i was rereading your post. while i do have serious probelems with the cultural homgenization, i have to say, people moving into impoverished areas, bringing up property values, making things a little safer for all involved, demanding parks and services etc etc is not necessarily a bad thing. We got a bike path all along Sunset blvd in the last two years. riding a bike is fucking dangerous, at least there is 6 feet of extra space to ride. Of course the draw back is we now have more SUVs in teh neighborhood pretty much cancelling out the newly made paths. We have a few more resturants and bars now, neighborhood concerns are heard more clearly, speak louder. the neighborhood shares the esteem of being one of the most culturally diverse areas in the city. White influx threatens that, but only to a degree. In your case, from what you have described, you live outside of town. What is happening where you are at, has been happening for years and years, at least everywhere else. What seems to be happening where you are, happened in the suburbs of LA, Atlanta in teh 70s and 80s. Suburbanization. What i was referring to is somewhat of a reaction to THAT. People moving BACK into the city. They are making a suburb of where you live am I right? If i were you, i'd find a big ass space downtown, where ever AR that may be, and get a big ass loft while things are probably cheap as can be since everyone is going outsdie of town. Hell if you can buy a hosue for such a price, Im sure you could buy a commercial space for cheaper and make rennovations with a shower and a kitchen

Capitol Hill sees rise in street drunks Monday, May 7, 2001 By PHUONG CAT LE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Street drunkenness reaches Barry Rogel's Capitol Hill corner almost every day, and he's growing ever more frustrated. Increasingly, he said, street drunks are urinating in alleys, verbally abusing pedestrians and aggressively panhandling for the next liquor fix. "It's not a benign thing going on," said Rogel, who owns the 39-year-old Deluxe Bar & Grill with his father, Joe Rogel. "If you live in the neighborhood, it degrades the quality of life." ...

im laughing with you heather at your sarcasm.

thank you patrick

yeah, the folks who seem to complain most about gentrification aren't the long-timers, who are gaining lots of value for their homes, but recent artiste folks who got there right before everyone else did and wanted to slam the door behind them. kind of like the attitude people are taking toward development in central oregon. "I want you to shut the doors to everyone just as soon as you let me in." poor things.

so like are you bringing your hipster ass to my hipster neighborhood soon?

actually the folks in the Atlanta story are the long timers, who are being forced out. in my neighborhood, a lot of the old queens are moving out, some of the gay bars are becoming targets for lewd conduct and indecency raids, in fact one of the oldest gay bars around was bought and made a hipster joint. I know a lot of people are upset about that. angry sam likes to make the point that he got that stop sign at the end of his street now that whitey has moved in. HAd the neighborhood demographic remained middle and lower class latino, there probably wouldnt be a stop sign there.

so the long-timers are renters? renters are always subject to market fluctuations. I just found out today they're definitely playing in l.a. in june. so I have to figure things out. e-mail me.

hey, i'm sorry if my opinion offended anyone. that wasn't my intent. i guess all i'm trying to say here is that gentrification, to me, seems to be a matter of people who don't belong here showing up & taking shit away from the locals. this state was doing just fine & dandy before these people arrived to take over people's jobs & turn everything into a carbon copy of somebody else's idea of suburbia. it started in the '80s with (a) a town called eureka springs and (b) the new age movement. in the '80s, yuppies took over eureka, which is one of THE premier artsy/bohemian refuges in the state. they had a biker for the mayor. things were going all right & people were living in peace. then great waves of developers from other areas came in & decided to make some money off of the whole scene...while fucking over the locals in the process. it's still going on today. it's nuts. i mean, the LOCALS aren't getting any of this dough (aside from the politicos who get kickbacks for approving one ill-advised building project after another). all these developers seem to care about is the money from tourism. but you know what? in the winter, the tourists go home. then the rest of us have to LIVE here. most of the locals despise tourists. i don't. i welcome them. but do we have to make EVERYTHING family-friendly & suburbanized just to suit them? it gets ridiculous after a while. with the new age movement, crystals became valuable. what does this state have in abundance? some of the planet's best crystals. people came down from the east coast & decided they could make money off the crystals. so they did it the easy way...they started murdering the local crystal miners. it's still going on. they're killing people over rocks, for god's sake. & now everything's getting gentrified. hooray. SUVs everywhere. soccer moms. ten years ago, nobody here played soccer. now it's everywhere. woodlands are being torn up to build kiddie parks because breeding's gone fucking out of control. mostly, as ever, it's people moving here from other places w/ their 7 kids a piece & we just can't really support that. a lot of areas are now putting moratoriums on building & development because the infrastructure simply can't handle any more "progress". shouldn't that tell people something? development is becoming a burden. anyway, this area has been inhabited by freaks for years (longass tradition of artists...they didn't just arrive on a plane yesterday). they're part of the local tradition & fabric of the place. let 'em be. i've been accosted by a couple of genuine weirdos...but on the whole, the street nuts here are harmless. i'm just not sure why the character & local color has to be driven out of every single community in the country, just to appease people w/ money. i don't get that. it's as much a hippie's country as it is billionaire's country...or at least there should be one spot left on earth where things can work out that way. right now, the gentrified areas look like a damn freakshow. they don't fit in w/ the local architecture, the local feel or anything else. it's like somebody came in & dropped all this pre-fab shit onto the landscape. somebody needs to tell these people that it's really OK to leave a tree standing. why is this a GOOD thing? because it makes some rich guy even richer? well, bully for him. sucks for the locals, but then again, everybody's getting kinda used to that by now. anyway, these are just my opinions. it's no big deal. i'm not asking anyone else to think the same way. i don't dig gentrification. maybe you do. if you do, congratulations, because your side's probably going to win. my dislike of overdevelopment won't stop it for one second.

Nate, bet I spend less on shoes than you do on your little dope baggies. And I still don't get why Blahnik-shoe-wearers don't get to say where their tax dollar goes. So long as you can stumble to the ballot box on your strappy little summer numbers, your vote counts.

I was never in any way a "Normal" person....oh----and I drink malt liquour, too. I prefer Newcastle and Guinness-----but I can buy the cheap stuff in bulk and it keeps me happy longer. Y'see----that's the way some of us on the low rung of the sociological food chain deal w/things. I'll be back to demolish this thread some more later----it's laundry day.

Cat, I don't begrudge you your good fortune or your indulgences and I won't even question that you earned every bit of it...but blowing $300 on a pair of shoes is something I can't even relate to. That's a week's pay for me. And that's the most $$$ I've ever made in my life. Being snotty and arrogant about it is beyond my comprehension. Cyst, if bums are sifting through your garbage maybe it's time to contemplate what you waste. Why do people dumpster dive? It's because people---"Normal" people and institutions----throw a lot of good things away. Consequentially, we live in a society that thinks nothing of throwing PEOPLE away----I could go on a tear about how we live in a world that virtually MANDATES people falling through the cracks---but I've done that before. There are a lot of dispossessed people out there---I can tell you I've never been "Homeless" per se---but I've lived in squats and condemned buildings and I've been in plenty of situations where I had no idea where my next meal was coming from, or how I was going to swing the coming week....so I've definitely been dispossessed----and I'm not trying to romanticize it, either-----it sucked. This one squat I was living in had all these punk & skinhead kids and every night they'd go out to "MacDumpster"----i.e., they'd dumpster dive at MacDonald's....and you know what? They always came back with a huge haul----and I'm not talking about half-eaten garbage, either. I'm talking about good, untouched food, still in the wrapper. Lots of it....MacDonald's just threw it all out at the end of the night----and took various (FAILED) measures to see that dumpster divers didn't get it... An absurd fucking waste. Of course, I can understand Cyst's whole angle x aggressive panhandlers---I've dealt with them too, in Boston, NYC, Philly, etc....but I never did that to anyone.... The whole mentality of "I don't care where they go----just get them out of HERE!" Is prevalent throughout history, I suppose---It's been used against the Gypsies in Europe for centuries....Nazi Germany. "I don't know what's in all those cattle cars---and I'm afraid to find out---maybe if I just try to pretend it isn't happening and read this nice magazine, it'll all just go away...." What I wonder, again and again (especially frequently having BEEN the human eyesore people don't want to deal with)----you've got all these dispossessed people and you bring in more and more gentrification, driving up the prices and next thing you know your boomtown implodes under its own weight (I've seen it happen----it's just entropy, folks)----that leaves you with EVEN MORE dispossessed people----and when you've shunted them all off from everywhere....where do they all end up? Reminds me of the riots in Tompkins Square Park in NYC when the Yuppies in the tenements decided the homeless camping in the park were an eyesore---they had the cops just go in and bust heads.... Not long thereafter a writer I was briefly associated with was hanging out in Tompkins Square Park and he got the shit kicked out of him by cops for no apparent reason....he was the wrong kind of person, I guess. Could have been me. So when you finally manage to "LOSE" all these undesireables---where DO they all go? It seems to me that it would leave you sitting on a social powderkeg.....either that, or--- How loud can anyone scream, "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Crimson's description of what's going down locally is pretty mch spot-on. We live just off the main drag, in what's often referred to as "The Student Ghetto", i.e., the Low-Rent District. One woman I know here in town works as an administrator for a local attorney---one of HIS big clients is a very high-profile lady who's in charge of a city-sponsored civic enhancement program. Sounds nice---beautify the downtown area. But nice, it ain't. These people are THE hardcore gentrification squad.....this lady was quoted by my friend as going off about all these long-term plans concerning which businesses they would let stay, which businesses were going to get the boot, which PEOPLE they were going to allow downtown and which people they were going to crack down on and try to run off... In short----people like ME. People like my friends. There used to be this little diner downtown---nice place----modest, cheap food---nothing fancy---but it was a place I would go several times a week because I felt comfortable there. I could sink a few beers, do a little writing and invariably someone would come up to me and start shooting the shit-----it was always interesting and fun. A lot of the University Faculty and local journalists would do lunch there---people I knew from the TV station would pop in. The Punks and alternakids could come in there with a buck in their pockets and have coffee and hang out all day----the gay kids could come in and be themselves and not worry about anyone fucking with them. Across the way there was another diner(same owners) that was a little rougher----you'd get more bikers and war vets and whatnot----but still----a laid-back place where everyone knew everyone----the clientele and the staff all knew each other----it was a nice place. Both of these establishments were bulldozed and replaced with some hulk of penthouses & whatever-----and the clientele of these diners----who were, are and HAVE BEEN longtime parts of this community are EXACTLY who these people want to get rid of...we ***ARE*** the "Undesireables". Where the gentrification crowd really get dangerous is when they REALLY want to get rid of someone. So they'll organize a series of busts and bullshit raids on local headshops and boutiques that might sell things like novelty sex items....a friend owned this tattoo/piercing joint on the main drag----but the bigwigs wanted to do away with "Those kinds of people"---so next thing you know there's a suspected arson job(nothing was ever proven) and then the owners of the building evicted my friend for "loitering"---i.e., when your shop's fire-damaged and you're out front trying to tell your customers what happened you're "loitering", you're a public nuisance---and you're the wrong kind of people----especially if you're providing any kind of a place the youth might congregate. My friends sued their former landlords and won. In the deposition the landlord spoke of seeing the proprietor loitering----so our friends' lawyer took a ton of photos of various local freaks and longhairs (my roommate and I included)----and asked him in court to identify our proprietor friend. He couldn't do it--- The landlord's entire defense consisted of rhetoric about how no landlord would want these unsightly people in his property....miracle of miracles my pals won and set up a new shop a few blocks OFF the main drag and it was very cool for awhile----they put in a coffee shop and started sponsoring punk shows, raves, poetry readings(which I helped to organize) and erotic art parties. But it became a happening hangout for local youth and authorities hate that.....there was a lot of bad local pressure plus diminished income because the location wasn't as good----and so after awhile the place was forced to close down----which is what these people want. Gotta check the dryer....*BRB*

i don't think you offended anyone crimson. its not that you don't have valid concerns. but i don't understand this us vs. them mentality that just seems to further spawn ill will. people have a right to live anywhere they want to. the whole notion of "locals" is kind of isolationist don't you think? Could i come to your area and meld or would I be an "outsider"? Would my appreciation for beat writing, punk rock and The Young Ones grease my sides to slip me in? SUVs aren't unique to your area, they are all over the country. Soccer is a good thing for kids, any sport or activity is...especially from what you have told us about the demographics of your area, the kids need something to do, so im not sure whats wrong with bldg parks and soccer fields. most tourist cities would starve without tourists. yeah i make fun of them too, but LA would be hurting economically without them, and Im sure your town would be too. the best dumpster trick is to order a pizza for pick-up and then hang out back around closing time.BINGO! er anyway I understand how you feel though...but I also understand how the beast of capitalism works. If people can make money, they will.

I hear what you're saying, Patrick---I think when you get past the immediacy of the vitriol Crimson has no problem w/people coming in from out of town(Hell----she invited ME here)....or the SUV types--and neither do I--she just has strong objections to such folks attempting to push the "Others" out(see my rantage above)....that's the ironic irony of it-----we ARE the "Others". A brief word on me and my crew: A lot of people in this town hate our guts---me and Crimson in particular. We're loud, lewd, crude and socially unacceptable---and we're everything these folks want to sweep under the rug. We remind them that there are ALTERNATIVES to buying into the status quo and we don't fuck around----we show up at their "Family Friendly" public events, kicking up unrest with our cameras in tow and we uncover the dissatisfaction underneath. They have a pretty, predetermined view of the "Community"---but then we show up and tell them, "hey, motherfucker---we're part of your Community, too! We're your 'Family'! Invite us to Dinner! We've come for your Children!" Certain people have spent the last 3 or 4 years trying to deprive us of our soapbox and yank our tongues out of our mouths....it ain't gonna happen----we're totally at war with these pricks. So if we're a trifle acidic about these things, please understand---we're under fire and we're firing back....censorship and gentrification go hand-in-hand. Fortunately, while we've garnered a lot of detractors, a lot of people have rallied behind us, as well.

In the town I lived in before I moved here (Southern NH) Urban Sprawl has eaten everything alive. I last went there two years ago and I barely recognized the place. Over 15 years I saw it all altered radically in the worst way----the beauty of the natural landscape was dynamited out of existence and chains have totally trashed the original look and feel of the place....but who needs a local bowling alley or a cool record store that can get you all kinds of rare stuff or a restaurant with a 75 year history when you can go to Borders Books(a chain notorious for its Union-busting) and suck down a mediocre iced Cappucinno while chasing down the latest installment in the "Left Behind" saga? New Hampshirites characteristically don't mind this kind of thing....who else would advance the career of a prong like John Sununu? The cool thing about Arkies is, a lot of them DON'T care to push or accept this kind of bullshit....

One big thing that went down over the last year (and cost a lot of local politicians their asses) was that some out-of-state developers rolled through and got the local city council to bypass a number of local ordinances (voted for by the people of this town)---most of which had to do with grading, pollution and tree cover... So this out-of-state developer came in and made a deal with the local Bible-Thumping, pro-corporate gov't allowing them to bypass this big tree ordinance and wipe out a grove of old-growth trees in order to put up a department store---a retail giant known for its exploitation of third world sweatshop labor that will go unnamed----no----fuck it, I'll name it----it's Kohl's---- The public uproar was pretty big----from people demanding a dialogue at the city council meeting(and not getting one) to a grandmother staging an act of civil disobedience (for which she was arrested & prosecuted) to protests---several local architects even offered several designs that would maintain the integrity of the landscape....the developers(and our local gov't at the time) would hear none of it----- And what do we have to show for all this high-handed arrogance? The grove came down and we have a flat, barren stretch dominated by this ugly, box-shaped, stucco department store that a shitload of people will never shop at. The fifty-billionth useless piece of urban blight to grace our fair burg. Get it the fuck away.

yep. the kohl's fiasco is something i almost mentioned, but didn't. it's just so typical. but i like the bumperstickers you see around here: "i will NEVER shop at kohl's...kohl's kills trees." it's a butt-ugly store & the trees were a hell of a lot nicer. hope the shop goes under next week. patrick, i think pug's right on...if i seem to have an "us vs. them" mentality in this case, it's because pug & i ARE targets of the gentrification crowd. it's not as if people haven't actively tried shutting us down over the past few years in the name of "decency" (i.e., we pissed off the poor little gentrification squad, which also sees itself as the morals police). so things have become a bit polarized...there are people who want the ozarks to be sanitized, squeaky-clean and safe for humanity...and then there are people like pug & myself who don't think that every street corner needs a trendoid boutique hawking tacky schlock to overindulged soccer moms. not every single event in town needs to be turned into watered-down "family-friendly" horseshit, either. how many soccer fields & parks do we NEED? if they wanna have a park for every damn brat in the county, fine. just don't cut down the damn trees & raze the landscape to do it. when i say "locals" i include people, like pug, who've elected to live here & be a part of the community...w/o completely disrupting it. that means that if you wanna come here, that's cool. but DON'T tell the "poor unenlightened hillbillies" how to live in their own damn towns. that's a big problem. folks come in from california or the east coast...& oh, we're just not good enough for them, poor dearies. but they'll gladly suck up our jobs & then start greasing the local politicians' palms to get all the scary people off the streets...scary people who have the exact same right to be there as they do. i'm not against newcomers. but they want to hide the white trash, run off the bikers (good luck) & round up all the deadheads. i'm against newcomers who are here for five minutes & then think they own the whole damn county. all i'm saying is that the spooky street kids w/ lime green hair have as much right to be here as some joker in a starched business suit. again, it doesn't really matter. i've got my opinion. you've got yours.

how much of the local population votes? how much of the local population is lethargic and apathetic? maybe annoying the suburbanites with bafoonery makes them more resolute to drive you out. im not saying bend, but rather a different approach is required. they tried to put a burger king around the corner from me about two years ago, they were fought and denied by the silverlaker chamber of commerce. you can win. Other than a starbucks around the corner, only indie-like business are sprouting.

That's Gentrification in a Nutshell, people...

Actually---on that level---the locals HAVE won----for now. The crew who let Kohl's come in and run roughshod HAVE been voted out of office----mostly because of the Kohl's Kontroversy. For now.

with a limited knowledge of your area this seems like sensationalism: "there are people who want the ozarks to be sanitized, squeaky-clean and safe for humanity...and then there are people like pug & myself who don't think that every street corner needs a trendoid boutique hawking tacky schlock to overindulged soccer moms. not every single event in town needs to be turned into watered-down "family-friendly" horseshit, either. " whats wrong with clean ozarks? yes soccer moms are indeed silly sometimes, but so are a lot of people. Im not sure how you get from here "squeaky-clean and safe for humanity" to "every street corner needs a trendoid boutique". as I said in my original post, there has to be harmony and coexistence. It's possible. i can't really speak about how many soccer fields you have in the area, because i don't know but parks and fields benefit everyone and are not a bad thing. Want to remind the others you exist, organize a game of kickball or what have you on the fields when they arent in use. If there are so many of them, use them to your advantage. get all your hippy friends to go hackysack in one...biker softball in the other , grunger dodgeball or whatever in another. your definition of "disrupting" the community is entirely subjective. Like Pug says, if you show up at so -called "family" events with spite on your shoulder, sarcasm on your other sleeve how exactly how are they supposed to take you? They will take exactly as you present yourself. In their mind you are disrupting the community. Yes they have the money, but you have the brains to out smart them, beat them at their own game. or else, move. as the population grows, this problem will not go away.

here's another way to look at it...i AM moving. in a matter of weeks, in fact. now, i could go waltzing into this new town & act like a total jackass. i could claim that the town drunk offends me & that i want him removed from the streets pronto. OR...i could be laid back & not piss these folks off. if i came in saying i wanted things to change to suit my every whim, they'd justifiably laugh in my face. BUT if i had an assload of money & made the same assertions & greased the right palms, somebody would probably listen to me. i don't intend to be a jerk in this new community i'm entering. i don't want to fuck w/ them. don't want them to fuck w/ me. it will be almost guaranteed that i'll have a different lifestyle & worldview from my neighbors...i won't look like them or act like them. but i'm not really going to fuck w/ them about the whole thing. i might end up privately bitching from time to time that it's backwoods & there's not much to do...but that's different from DEMANDING that things be brought in to amuse me. that's the way the yuppies often do things. they whine & make demands. for some bizarre reason (probably the almighty dollar) the town fathers listen to them. pug & i have done our art gig for years. but we've never TRULY fucked anyone over. the yuppies, on the other hand, have seriously fucked up people's lives. pug & i are part of the local nut squad that the gentrification crowd hates...but we're of the spooky-but-harmless variety. make no mistake, we COULD be dangerous as hell, but we're not. we're pretty mellow, on the whole. there are people who THINK we're violent & dangerous, but they're just deluded candyasses incapable of comprehending satire.

"And that's the most $$$ I've ever made in my life. Being snotty and arrogant about it is beyond my comprehension." Miaow, Bitch. You're not finding out where my liquour cabinet is in a hurry. I would never judge you on the basis of your bank account or how you choose to spend it. Being snooty and arrogant is not beyond your comprehension, when you can take such a stand against someone on the basis of their personal choices. It's just reverse snobbery. Don't presume you know me because you know how much I spend on shoes. Did you know I lived in a cave in Thailand for three months? Or that I worked for the UN in the river slums of Bangkok?

smelly.

do you need to be changed, patty? do you have a smelly?

pfffffft if i did like i would have you and your poop/ass fetish anywhere near me.

See, I'm with Cat. I -would- blow $300 on shoes if I liked them, and so what? It's my fucking money. See, I live in between two towns. Mendocino is a tourist town. Without the yuppie trade, they would not survive. I went to school in Mendocino for a number of years. It's ALL boutiques and yuppie shit. So, I don't like it, but I can respect it because it brings us UBER bucks. Of all the jobs I've held here, I think I've had maybe two which didn't rely on the tourism industry... Then there's Fort Bragg. Fort Bragg used to be a logging and fishing town. GP basically owned the town, and that was cool. Every other Friday, the GP boys would hit the sleazy bars and blow some bucks, and then on saturday their wives would go to the supermarket and buy some food. The fishers would get up at five every morning to fish, come back, sell the fish, and then go home, pop a beer, and chill. But the trees started getting smaller. And smaller. And smaller. I went to school in Fort Bragg for one year--the year the mill laid off 70% of their employees. The entire town just died. No money was circulating. The mill boys would go to the sleazy bars and throw each other through the windows because they had nothing else to do. And we began to be fished out. We used to be a major exporter of urchin to Japan, which had been fished out. But our fishing population went from 7,000 to 700. So, suddenly there were all these people out of work and businesses were just dying. A lot of people moved away to find better jobs--and McDonalds and Walmart and Burger King moved in. Fort Bragg is a slum. It's filled with falling down houses and abandoned tenements. The Hispanic population is huge and they live on WAY less than minimum wages. These women get up at 5am to go stand knee deep in ice at the fish packing plant for eight...and they FIGHT for the privledge, because there's not enough fish. One logger KILLED his son because he was laid off by the mill and his son wasn't. The town went from being small and pretty chill to a not fun place to be. Now, this isn't exactly urban gentrification, although a few years ago people started moving in and trying to expand on the Mendocino profits. So, now you drive through several miles of depressing SHIT to get to a block of boutiques, and it's wierd. It's this I don't like. Fort Bragg used to be a really nice place to be--when we had a real industry. Now it's just a big pile of poop in the middle of valuable real estate, so it's expensive poop. It makes me very sad that the town has been brought to its knees like this. And, I admit it. I'm not proud of being poor. I grew up as the poorest kid, and I didn't get a lot of stuff. This has turned me into a massive consumer--I stay here and work in a job that's shitty now so that eventually I'll become an important person and get a lot of money and buy an oceanfront house and have lots of pretty stuff and a nice kitchen and not live in a tin shack with unreliable wiring and a rotten floor...and I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm an ardent capitalist. I WANT to be wealthy. I want to be able to have everything I want. I do want to keep my soul, of course--I don't want to turn into a soccer mom, I just want to be rich and eccentric...and I don't care who knows it. Fuck, I'd pack fish with the Mexican women if it paid better. I would love to be in Cat's position--do all this cool stuff like working in Bangkok, and then be able to go back home to a beautiful place and have a nice bedroom and all that stuff...and $300 shoes. See, I really am shallow!

i don't think you (or anyone else here) is necessarily all that shallow. hey, if $300 shoes are what floats your boat, go for it. i can't even conceive of it myself, but what the hell. we've all got our little pleasures. i once spent almost $40 on a pair of shoes & felt guilty as hell for a long damn time. before that, i wouldn't buy any shoes over 10 bux (i'm wearing a nice pair of black $2 shoes right now). having massive amounts of money would be weird. god knows it'd be interesting. pug & i have often commented that if we had any money, we'd be dangerous. i've got strong opinions about the whole yuppie thing. i don't GET the yuppie gig. if i had as much money as a yuppie, i still don't think i'd become one of them. i'd be in their income bracket, yeah, but i can't see myself in their position. short hair, starched clothes, tacky little suburban mansion...i just don't see that as part of my future. you could give pug, pilate, oswald & myself all the money in the world & i don't think it'd make us fit into mainstream society any better than we presently do (however, people might be more inclined to listen to our half-baked ideas if we went around waving cash in their faces). different people have different reactions to growing up poor. i know someone who grew up wearing salvation army crap & dumpster-dive specials just like i did...nowdays, she won't wear anything that doesn't have a designer label on it. to me, that just seems outrageous & frivolous. i still wear other people's cast-off clothes & have never had a real problem w/ it. there's just a hell of a lot more going on in my life than chasing some lamebrained idea of fashion. there are ideas to put forth & people to help. nobody CARES what i wear...least of all me. i have a few dressy things for those special occasions but they're still bargain items & that's cool. we all have possessions that are essentially useless. for instance, i don't HAVE to have musical instruments to survive. it just makes the quality of my life seem a hell of a lot better. i was given most of these items & i use them continuously. however, if i had to jettison everything & start all over again, i could do that. i've slept in doorways. i can do that. i just don't really WANT to live like that ever again...which makes me just as shallow & bourgeois as anybody else on earth, i suppose.

I think Cleo plays soccer. Bet Agatha will be delighted to know she's been categorised and filed away under "soccer mom" all because her child plays a sport. Personally, the idea of being a "soccer mum" is kinda nice. I like the idea of supporting my kid. And of having someone to support in the first place. Bet I'd yell louder than any of the other "soccer Mums".

I think there's a bigass difference between a person whose kid plays soccer and the stereotypical "soccer mom". You can have your kid out there playing soccer without being a useless, vapid twit about it. Most people get a distinct picture in their mind when somebody uses the term "soccer mom" and it's not pretty. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the actual concerned parent whose kid just happens to play soccer. It has to do with moronic glassy eyed cows who hang around in shopping malls and spend too much time gabbing on their damn cell phones behind the wheel of an SUV. It's a generalized term, like "science nerd". Obviously, not all scientists are developmentally arrested weirdos who live in Mom's basement at age 40, but the term just packs a certain meaning and connotation. Same with "soccer mom". It's just a phrase and nothing more. No soccer moms were harmed in the making of this post.

i like it when parents kill each other over youth sporting events. that's the best. especially when they're creationists.

"I think there's a bigass difference between a person whose kid plays soccer and the stereotypical "soccer mom"." The bigass difference is the snobbery that's going down here. You're stereotyping people just because they have different values and lifestyle choices. If the "moronic glassy eyed cows" did the same thing to you, you'd be screaming bloody hell or whatever that cliche is. I find the judgmental pedestal stance a touch bit hypocritical. Especially coming from Sorabjites, who are more open-minded, self-aware and intelligent than your average bears.

(All the bears were rounded up and shot by a firing squad during the making of the above post. Bearskin rugs are available in the Sorabji foyer.)

Boyoboy----here I am, back from a night in the Salt Mines and things have gotten SOOOOO lively....looks like another fun morning at the keyboard. Cat---you seem to be under the impression that I'm judging you---and I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't...nor was I trying to say that you are, by buying $300 shoes, Evil Incarnate...it's just my whole blue collar/utilitarian trip.....it's the same priority gap I run into when I hang out with friends who say, "I want a Porsche" or "I want a BMW" or "I want a Lambourghini"---and my contribution to the discourse is usually something to the effect of, "I want a car that RUNS!" It's not a judgement on my friends---there's just a difference in priorities. And I find that difference ironic and funny. But I think it's odd that you have posted, "don't you dare judge me"(and despite what you think, I haven't) and then you offer up such contempt for "artistes" and "stoners" and "bikers"----who's judging? Careful with that Glass House, babe. If I haven't made it clear enough----fortune's axis can shift an nth of a degree and plunge you into the shitter. Could be me. Could be you. And that's something working in the river slums in Bangkok should have probably taught you.

I want to elaborate on Lee's post----understand that when me & mine refer to "Soccer Mom" it's not meant as a diss against Agatha OR her kid OR anyone who has a kid who plays soccer OR the Noble Sport of Soccer(as I hunt & peck in the wake of Ghana) itself----although we will fervently maintain that Soccer/Football is not a hair on the ass of OUR Game-of-Choice, the one and only Kingly Sport of Meat PoloTM..... "Soccer Mom", as we often reference her, is an archetype---she's the stodgy, middle-aged, middle class, censorship-happy dolt who lives an insulated life, is blissfully and voluntarily unaware of what's going on w/others(she wouldn't, for instance, want to hear about impoverished people in Thailand)....and she's zealous about pounding that sort of sociological insulation down the throats of others, usually in the guise of "Protecting the Childruuun". That's the thing about "Soccer Mom"(as Archetype)....she's not about a Lifestyle Choice. She's about running roughshod over the lifestyle choices of the undesireable "Others" (qv.) I grew up looking at footage from the Viet Nam War, starving Biafran kids, etc....it had a tremendous impact on the way I view the world and I'm DAMN thankful no "Concerned Citizens" were there to insulate ME. Tipper Gore(Vice Presidential Wifey and '80's Music Censorship Witch-Hunter Extrordinaire) has described herself as a "Soccer Mom". When we invoke "Soccer Mom", that's what we're talking about. AN IMPORTANT SIDE-NOTE: I have a sister who is basically "Soccer Mom"----her kids are presently too young to play Soccer----but that's wholly beside the point----she fits the bill nicely. And this may shock and amaze ya---but I love her. And her husband. And my nephews. But I don't delude myself for a minute in knowing that there's a fucking GULF between us, as far as Philosophy and Lifestyle goes....when we get together and talk after awhile it's like I may as well be talking Swahili. That's just simple reality....and I know that if she lived in Arkansas and it wasn't her BROTHER'S smilin' face she saw on the Idiot Box spewing blasphemy, vulgarity and subversion, she would be joining the chorus of "Concerned Citizens" screaming that I be taken off the air.

pug i think cat is not necessarily feeling judged herself as much as she is pointing out that labeling THEM is no different than The "soccer moms" labelng you as "undesirables" or "freaks" "bums" whatever.

It all depends on which end of the Food Chain you're on, I suppose.... I'll grant that we tend to make these sweeping generalizations---but we do it w/tongue-in-cheek and ask people to take it with a grain of salt.....we, after all, don't carry any real clout. The difference is the "Soccer Moms" DO----and while I'm inclined to say "Live and Let Live", the sentiment isn't mutual.... Read what I wrote.

btw Cat IS feeling judged----and she states it pretty bluntly.

But I've pretty much deconstructed ALL of that in my last several posts----so it's all a moot issue, anyway. I gotta go do a few things-----I'll be back to deconstruct some more later...

"Soccer Mom" is, like Pug said, a sort of archetype, and not necessarily a good one. I don't get bent out of shape when people talk about "Art Fags". I know what they're talking about. You can be an Art Fag without even being gay. You can also be a Soccer Mom without ever having a kid who's played soccer. Hell, I can think of people who act like Soccer Moms who don't even have kids and aren't even fucking female. It's a way to describe a social phenomenon. We all judge people and that's part of human nature. It's an unfortunate part, but it IS part of how people operate. You judge and I judge. It's part of the human condition. I'm not saying that's a GOOD thing, but it's a human thing. I become aware of my own hypocrisy at times and it's pretty humbling. Yet, it's hard to resist the urge to bash Soccer Mom at moments (or, for me, homophobic straight people). I have more fun than I should tormenting them......but in the end, it's pretty much all in jest. Nobody gets hurt. It's just a war of words, which is not hurting anybody at all. We're all just typing here. It's just a computer, folks. Crimson and Pug are two of the nicest people you'll ever meet. If they sensed that you were in need, they'd literally give you the shirt off their backs. But they DO have a way of being ballsy, in-your-face social commentators and I think it's GREAT. They'll often say things in public that I only dare to think privately. We need them around. They say what they think. They can be damn brazen about it. But then again they are very sweet people and if they saw a Soccer Mom in need of food and shelter I have no doubt in my mind that they'd feed her and try to help her find a place to go. We all rant here. Ranting isn't always a fair game. We can pick on our pet targets......but again, it's just words. This is a way of letting off steam. Sometimes unloading a good online rant helps me keep my shit together in the "real world". I can type my feverish ravings to strangers and then disappear. It's an outlet. Saying these things in a setting where I won't be torn to shreds for indulging in a bit of excess helps me to curb myself in those day-to-day dealings where I DO need to bite my tongue and play nice.

hey dave, agatha.... Olympia's Bangs are playing here Monday....good? also, did you get my envelope? You must not check your sorabji mail often there miss agatha

"Crimson and Pug are two of the nicest people you'll ever meet." did someone get pissed off? this thread has gotten really weird in a "we're all ok, ok? everyone's, ok?" kind of way. these seems to be a place where you can scream from your most feral emotional places, make arguments personal and vicious, pick and prod at your "opponent's" pinkest places with calculated, graceless abandon. yet, in the midst of the shit-storm or sorabji-wrath, if you were to meet this "opponent" in a bar you would buy them a beer. in a second. i mean, i hope so anyway. if not i must be in some deep sorabji-shit, and oblivious to it. i've been root and target of some pretty heavy sorabji-wrath.

I still love you, Nate.

We ALL still love you, Nate....but---y'know---don't be, like, getting any funny ideas....

i think the assmonkey already has funny ideas

A few further notes I wanted to throw Patrick(throw me an afternoon of running errands and I turn into Rodin's "Thinker"----)(Or maybe I just turn into Rodan and nuke Tokyo) It's true if you walk into a scene wearing a sign that says "Kick Me", you shouldn't be surprised when you get kicked. But if anyone kicks you-----you're surely justified in kicking back. Me & my crew have a thing going----it's a burr up our ass that hit critical mass when the likes of Bennett, Buchanan, Lieberman et. al declared "Culture War".....and our belief is that the creative community needs to grow some balls and start fighting back. That's been my bent for years, tho----whenever these fucks try to ban books I love, comedians who make me laugh, movies I dig, bands I enjoy----- That's been the burr up my ass since I was a kid----and it affects everything I do as an adult. Which, if you ask me why I'm such an attitude case now, well...that's why.... Sorry----I'm running out of steam, here-----none of this makes sense and I need to crash.....more later when the next few squabbles break out (and I'm sure they will)

I was feeling kind of judged. Probably because five years ago I would have thought I was a total wanker. I often try and justify my choices to myself because I'm not exactly sure how a communist ballerina ended up here. And I'm not always sure that it's what I want. But enough of my emotional dilly dallying.. It's kind of weird the way Crimson, Pug and Pilate all hunt in a pack on the boards. You can all do fine individually, but maybe it's nice for you to have the support. I don't know. The whole "soccer Mom" thing still seems kinda hypocritical. But maybe that's the part of me that envies the peace and security that would come with an "unexamined" life. How do we know that we're so very right and they're so very wrong? Maybe true happiness is a SUV brimming with kids, and brick house in the suburbs complete with barbecue out back. I was always somewhat jealous of the way Trace saw things in black and white, right and wrong. I wallow in the grey area, always questioning and wondering and pulling myself apart and feeling guilty and unsure of whether I'm on the right path. "If assuredness with which they live their lives. If I haven't made it clear enough----fortune's axis can shift an nth of a degree and plunge you into the shitter. Could be me. Could be you. And that's something working in the river slums in Bangkok should have probably taught you." Nah, the people of the slums are not victims of downsizing or lost opportunities or excessive shoe habits. They simply never had the chance in the first place. The birth passage delivered them straight to a world of unbelievable struggle and suffering. A place where words like "dignity" and "humanity" have no voice.

And I don't still love Nate. I did but I didn't inhale.

i love the gray area

i don't think that pug, pilate and i necessarily "hunt in a pack" or anything like that (face it, we don't have that much collective organization between the lot of us). it's just that we've been friends & co-conspirators for a damn long time...certain issues will trip our trigger & others won't. our lifestyle is damn near communal at times, or as close as you can get to it w/o actually sharing each other's bedsheets. we just tend to get off on the same subjects & debates. i've been trying to kinda stay off this thread for a little bit, just because i've pretty much said what i wanted to say (for the moment) & everything else will almost certainly lapse into redundancy. there are topics that'll bring out that strange quality in me that can be paradoxially vitriolic, zealous and boring at once. i'll yammer on about certain topics, world without end. it's a flaw of mine, but one that i occasionally have an assload of fun indulging. i tend to wear my feelings on my sleeve. you KNOW what i'm going to say about certain topics. you could set a fucking clock by it. that's just the way i am. i don't mean to be a boring old goat...but i do it w/ such verve & gusto sometimes. at this point, cat's being a hell of a lot more diplomatic than i am. i don't know what soccer mom thinks. i haven't been able to wedge myself into a suburban housewife's brain. i think i'd go mad if i did. but that doesn't mean that i'm totally condemning soccer mom to hell. i just kinda want her to do her thing & i'll do mine. i won't bother her if she doesn't bother me. maybe someday, the great soccer mom enlightenment will beam itself down into my cranium & i'll reach suburbanite nirvana & understand everything.

Please don't call me diplomatic again or I'll smack.

"Careful with that Glass House, babe." Pug, since you're so socially aware and all, you might want to desist in calling women "babe". That's the name of a talking pig. Or it's what "soccer Dads" call women. That glass is a real bitch to clean, isn't it?

I'm sure that Pug didn't mean any harm by what he wrote. He's called ME "babe" before. It's just something he says sometimes. It's usually a sign that he likes you. We're not politically correct all the time. In fact, we're not correct (politically or otherwise) very often at all. We're only human. We fuck up a lot. Pug, I'm sure, was trying to make a point, not to truly make you uncomfortable or offend you. He's not the all-seeing, all-knowing voice of the patriarchy. He's just someone who typed something in a heated moment. We're not the gods of social consciousness by any means. Sometimes we try to make points and can be abrasive about it. Things get rowdy and out of control once in a while, but we're not really chronic troublemakers (I hope). We try to rope it in if we sense that someone's getting genuinely offended. Pug isn't here to defend himself. He works the graveyard shift and won't be back until tomorrow morning. But I do know that he calls people "babe" sometimes and he means nothing evil by it. He's called my son "babe" before. He calls people "Chief" a lot, too, and it's not a slam against Native Americans. It's just part of the way he speaks (or types). I don't feel that he meant offense or chose his words with malicious intent. His words were strong, but if so, we're not the first people on these boards to have said something we shouldn't have. Crimson and I deeply apologize if you've been offended by anything we've personally said. Pug, however, will have to speak for himself at a later time.

it hardly matters who's offended by whom. only i matter and i don't care about any of this crap. i don't need to identify with a group or groups of people in order to harbor scorn for other groups. i can do this much all by myself. it's much tidier this way. me vs. everything.

Hell, I say the wrong thing ALL the time.

I'm not offended. It take a lot to offend me. I was just trying, quite effectively me thinks, to exercise my inner sarcastic bitch. It's a much more fun hobby than knitting. Pug's a big boy, he can stick up for himself and I was quite enjoying having a little linguistic fence with him. However, if you're posting as a team, it might be a bit less confusing if you posted under one name. Team USA is taken, unfortunately. Anyway, we've just about thrashed this whole thing to bits. Shall we get that drink now?

Sure. Make mine absinthe. And if we post as a team, it's mainly because 2 of us are usually sitting here at the same machine posting at roughly the same time. We're often talking to each other while we post. In between our little posting fits, we're often on the phone with Pug. But don't think of us so much as a team......it's more like a holy Trinity. The Godhead by way of the Arkansas hills. We occasionally dispatch Oswald Dearest as our guardian angel.

I love Pug,he's all good.

i just want you all to know that it makes me warm inside to have my name included in discourse. you can all just call me punk-ass soccer mom, and i would be okay with it. patrick- bangs good. sorry no email. out.

im wanting to say something venomous jsut to keep the cage rattling. any ideas? smelly hippies? perfume-y yuppies?

Cat, I never meant to equate you with a talking Pig. Unless the "Shoe" fits.... (No Pun Intended) (No---I lie---the pun was intentional all the way) (Sometimes I just can't help myself) And as Socially Conscious as you may accuse me of being, I'm ***NEVER*** Politically Correct..... As far as Pack-hunting, I don't know what to say.....I was unable to get on sorabji for several days....I came back and here was this longass thread on urban gentrification(a subject near and dear to my heart for reasons already hammered out)----I scrolled down and read the fucker and lo and behold----it seemed as tho my best friend had people jumping down her throat from all angles----so I defended her. If that's Pack-hunting, I don't know what to tell ya. Sincerely, your Punning Linguist

btw I've beaten ALLA Y'ALL to that drink. Well---no----maybe not.... If you're prone to wallowing in that gray area it just means you can THINK.... And I respect that.

a high school english teacher whom i respected said "only the wise change their mind" i like that. i like that a lot.

Are you saying my shoes don't fit, you heartless bastard you?

I'm not gonna get out of this joust easy, am I?

Hey, I'm an Urban Gent....can I park here?

No, it's handicapped parking only.

I can fix that....(pulling out a hacksaw)

i'll handle it, pug. i'm licensed to cripple. you, me, and a bolt cutter... baby.

For $300, your shoes better damn well fit, Cat. What I hate is that it seems when I have no access to the boards and then come back and a great debate has taken place, and I spend a half hour reading it, I just can't come up with anything relevant to add.

I cannot believe not one of you is sticking up for Cat. She said UP TO $300 and in Australia, you cannot buy leather shoes for much under $100. Cat is the furtherest thing from snobby or shallow. She won a big international prize for her work against pedophilia in Thailand (not that she did it for that). She teaches english to illegal detainees for nothing and runs the kitchen for the bush fire brigade, also for nothing. And she is always cooking something for someone or loaning money to whomever needs it. Like on mother's day, she went up to the old peoples home with afternoon tea because her grandmother used to live there. There is nothing snobby about her and if you met her you would realise that. She is very graceful and classy but at the same time she has a wicked sense of humour. Her house is beautiful but not because she has expensive things. Most of the furniture is old wood that she has done up herself because she liked the shape. And she has interesting paintings and things from around the world. Right now I am listening to a cow bell from Nepal blowing in the wind out on the verandah. I am not saying she is a saint. Not at all. She drinks too much and dances too hard for that.A friend said about Anita that she has the most beautiful skin. My boyfriend told her that it was underneath the skin that she was most beautiful. And that may be corny but it is very true.

she also has a delightful accent and a surprisingly deep voice.

Guess who's angling for a rent reduction? I sound like Mother Theresa in stilletoes, but the truth is somewhere between the two extremes.

I think that Cat can stand up well enough for herself without help from us, though. I'll admit that I would not spend $300 on shoes, but if I had $300 dollars to spend, it would be on musical equipment, and I don't figure there's much difference, really.

What's wrong with drinking too much? (URP!)

you've told us more about cat in one post than she has in a year. thanks electra.....

I didn't feel the need to stick up for Cat because I never thought she did anything wrong in the first place,I bought some extravagant things myself usually when I'm drunk,when I'm sober,I'm real frugal.But I have a pretty expensive gypsy get up that I can't even figure out how to wear,bought it tanked.When Czarina and I were in Mexico, I was all tanked up on margaritas and some peddler on the beach suckered me out of $50.00 for two opal rings I got to give as gifts,I even asked him if he swore to Our Lady of Guadalupe if they were real and he said si,after sobering up I saw they were plastic,then I ripped on my s/o for letting buy something when I'm drunk,cause we have talked about this.

J wasn't the only one tanked on the beach.I came home with every appendage covered heavily in silver.It was so outlandish,that my mom reminded me that when when we drove thru some fast food place,the guy asked me if I was in costume,to which I replied,"yes,I'm late for my casting call,could you put a rush on those frys?" And I'm kinda outlandish with shoes,too.And also with bizaare head wear.Uh oh,maybe I'm just outlandish.I'll have to think on that.

It doesn't seem to me that shoes were ever ***REALLY*** the issue here----nor was anyone's character in question.....but I think the crux of the dialogue on the thread bears that theory up....I'll say no more on the subject....

Say what you want about anything Pug,you crack me up,I really got a kick out of your post on this thread from May 11 2001 at 11:24 a.m. Your funny:)

I'm a Cunning Linguist.

and a master debator. hyuk!

i have a friend named hyuek what d'you think about that?

At least your friend's name isn't "Hork"---