I read some tidbit yesterday that said a 3-year-old girl is now recovering from having almost been scalped by her father. Comments?

birthcontrol in the water supply.

Simple and efficient cost saving measure. By removing the child's scalp, there is less money expended on a regular basis for shampoo and/or hats. Sure, it's pennies a day, but over the life of that deformed child, it will really add up.

mete out an equal punishment on the father. i'm so sick of hearing about crap like this. what could that child possibly have done to deserve that?

probably said or did something to piss the ole man off dumbass.

"Lookin' out the window, that's a paddlin'. Lookin' at my sandals, that's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe -- you better believe that's a paddlin'."

Shoot the bastard.

Nahh there has to be a way to just give the motherfucker testicular cancer. I say fuck'em, fuck'em HARD.

Speaking of parenting-check this out

That just about says it all, espeacially the blame link.

yes, it sure does

An excerpt from the blame page that bothers me: "Civil lawsuits seeking to place blame and recover damages for the actions of violent juveniles have proliferated in the wake of school shootings across America, including that of Kip Kinkel. In most cases, injured children or their parents are suing the parents of school shooters for failing to supervise or control their children. In some instances, school officials and other government agencies are being sued for failing to prevent the tragedies. There also have been suits brought against gun manufacturers. And in the case of the shooting incident in Paducah, Kentucky, parents of the three girls killed by Michael Carneal are attempting to hold the media legally responsible for inducing violence, suing 25 companies that produce violent video games, movies, and web sites. These lawsuits reflect various attempts to resolve the unsettling issues raised by school shootings, a natural outgrowth of the need to find an explanation, and to hold someone accountable. " OK, I understand suing the schools and the parents for failing to control the children and watching out for signs of violence (there has to be some indication, for god's sake, they don't be "blue ribbons" (see Disturbing behavior for reference) one minute, and Charles Manson the next. But suing the gun manufacturers? Or the media? Or video game manufacturers? Why not sue the car companies when a drunk driver hits a school bus, or the beer bottler for making it? Get real, people. Most of the blame should fall on the parents. Another thing that bothers me about this story. I think the kid did have some mental problems, obviously. Anyone who murders, I believe, has mental problems, or they could not kill another human being. However, Kip killed his dad, waited 2-3 hours for his mom to come home, then killed her, slept in the house with his dead parents, got up the next morning, drove 20 minutes to school in his dead mother's car, got out, warned his friends to leave, then selectively shot kids before he started just blanketing the lunchroom with bullets. There had to be mental clarity and conscious thought while he was doing this.

You can have mental clarity while having mental problems. Have you heard the tapes of the guy who went on a shooting spree in the Capitol Building a few years ago? He had gone to the FBI convinced there was an enormous conspiracy involving Clinton and a satellite and that the control panels of this satellite were in the Capitol Building. The tapes reveal his arguments to be lucid and rational. They played excerpts on NPR's Morning Edition a few weeks ago, I think.

I had not, I wonder if they having anything on the NPR site?

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=05%2F15%2F2001&PrgID=3 It's at the bottom. You can listen to the segment online.

It's not at the bottom; it's in the middle by the PBS logo.

thanks

i got in a big arguement once with my psych major ex about violence in video games and the media having an effect on children. studies, she said. studies show! studies show! (she also said Why do you always contradict what i've learned? why don't you take my education seriously? ... ) so studies have shown. psych is built on small sample evidence. meanwhile, you look at the world. in the media and video games violence has gotten more realistic and more prevelant. think from 1990 to 2000. we gained Wolfenstein3D and DOOM in that timeframe, for christsakes. realistic first person shooters. violence exposure to children has increased incredibly. meanwhile, in the same 10 years, youth violence has declined. people always look for something to blame. all Kip needed was someone who he could talk to. someone who would listen and care. that's what parents are for.

I do think video games have desensitized some kids,it's important for parents to check the games rating,too many parents aren't there for their kids,they don't know what goes on in their lives.About the only books I read anymore are about real murders and some of these killers are really smart.An eight year old girl was murdered and sexually assalted here last week,the killer is still at large.A seemingly very straight arrow family man,killed his wife and two kids here and blew up his house,he's still at large.I just think there is alot of evil in this world,and you better watch your back no matter where you go.

No, studies don't show, actually. Well, let me amend that. Studies show there's no difference in rates of violence between people (of any age) who watch lots of violent TV/movies and those who don't, when you factor out socio-economic class, family histores, etc. I don't know if this could be generalized to playing video games or not. One of my professors headed a big study on this topic, and he was fond of using these results as examples in class.

Ok its time for Hal to give his opinions about video game violence, and the impact it does or does not have on youth violence. First of all, its true in the last 10 years the games revolving around first person shoot and kill have become much more realistic, and have gone from wolfenstien 3D to games like Tribes 2, and Unreal Tournament. As well we have ventured into games even more realistic like UT Strike Force, and Half-Life Counter Strike- Games designed to be real, where a couple rounds in the chest and you are not a happy person your a dead one. However I want you to look at something, even though these games have become more realistic and have gained a reputaion for being the cause of violence, they are not. I am an avid gamer, and have played all of the games listed above and many more. Yes I do enjoy killing people in those games, I say that because thats just what it is, games. I am not desensitized twards violence, in my opinion causing harm to another human being is about the worst form of solving any problem there is. (Take it from a guy who has 4 titanuim plates in his head from being assulted by 8 boozed up fuckheads.) Games like the aforementioned do hold a value for me, because as I am human and do have a temper I do have the urge to do irrational things, such as cause harm to my fellow man. What said games do for me and many others I know is allow a release of pent up aggression to be filtered into something that ends when the game ends. The problem with today's society is not the games we design, but the way parents are not taking responsibility enough to take care of their children. I was raised around guns (I'm from Montana what do you expect.) I also was taught to respect them. When I was younger I was told "You never point a gun at someone, you aim it." Now this can be construed in many ways but the way I took it and the way my father intended for me to take it was you never raise a fire arm twards a person unless you plan on killing them. I also was rasied with an afinity twards life. The problem is parents are not being there for their kids. Spending more time trying to provide for the kids, and less time actually being a parent. Which might I add is more important to growing youths then almost anything. I'm not a parent, I'm a teenager, one of the so called "mis-guided" youth of America. So I have a question, am I going to go off the handle and kill all my co-workers and friends because of violent video games? When I have problems do I not consult other people (you all should know this because you are one of the very few groups of people I confide in, god knows why but I have gotten better advice here then from most of my friends.) Children are building blocks of society, but if you don't take care of them the blocks crumble. If you treat them right however they will end up a nice strong foundation for the generation next to arrive.

well, some studies do show. the studies that appear in the liberal media. the studies that the new breed of nazis like tipper gore and joe lieberman use to sway public opinion towards censorship. certainly, if you'd gone to UCSC you'd have had a totally different education. at times i think UCSC is as scary as the most conservative of schools. say one thing that isn't in the good-lefty handbook and you open yourself up to ridicule and hate. there are a lot of arguments as to why psych isn't a science, blah blah. probably pretty offensive. but the bottom line is that science (psych included) is the relgion of america. the average person has no concept of science (or statistics, for that matter,) and yet takes these studies at face value. pure faith. and what guides the public opinion allows the laws to be made. democracy isn't freedom. not when your majority are suckers and fools. and parentless children. rant nate rant. blah.

well said, hal.

J: that was my point about the parents. Parents should be checking what thier kids are watching and playing. I have no doubt that some of those games are desensitizing kids (hell, I play Quake and Wolf and I don't think you can get much more violent then those), but dammit you're the parents and you are responisble for everything they see and hear in your home, as well as guests in your house. Now all we hear is "Right to Privacy" "Kid's have a right to thier privacy" "I dont think I should tell him/her what to think or do or watch, that is not my right" MY ASS. You know what I think of when I see that six year old girl who lives down the street from us, riding her bike in middle of the road? What the hell is wrong with her mother? Why does she let her daughter do that? "because it is her right to ride where she wants". That excuse will work just fine until you are at her funeral because she got her ass run over because she is not old enough to watch out for cars! We were asked to watch her for a week while her mom was out of town (she met us twice I think before she asked us to do this), and she told her daughter that if she did not feel comfortable sleeping at our house, that would be just fine, she could sleep in her own bed with the house sitter. Or, she could go to a friend's house. So, of course she did not come over once that week. One day she did not come home on the bus. My daughter, who rides the same bus said "Oh, she told me she was staying at some boy's house that is her friends". what's his name? "She did not tell me". What's his phone number "I don't know". But her mom told us it would be fine if she did that. You know what that is? A product of her mom's laziness. The I-dont-care-what-you-do-as-long-as-you-are-quiet-about-it-and-leave-me-alone attitude. And we wonder how our twelve year old girls end up pregnant or dead, and our boys go shoot up the school. Nate, you are right. Attention. That's what these kids need. Attention, not constant criticism and maybe not even a long lecture about what they just told you. Just shut up and listen to them, and show them some time and love.

by the way, that is my answer to cat's one line non contributary response comment.

i think you're dead on, too, trace. i read kip's journal entries and his letter and looked at his pictures. it makes me so sad. sad and fucking pissed off. what was this kid going through? he was being the same fucking awkward teenager that i was. the only difference is that i had people who cared about me enough to make me realize that adolecense doesn't last forever. even if you're ugly as hell with a rock for a heart at 15, you can grow out of it. maybe i didn't even really realize it at the time, but it was in my mind enough that i never acted on any violent thoughts. i had plenty of violent thoughts. i thought my soul was vacant. that i was truly evil. that i was insane. i was sent to the counsellor twice by my spanish teacher. same shit that kip did. drawing pictures of evil on the shit i turned in. my spanish teacher thought i was dabbling in the occult or something. i told my counsellor that i write horror fiction and he left me alone. told me to watch myself around seņora stanberry. goddamnit. if somehow i could have talked to kip. once a week. told him i'd been there. it passes. he's normal. the kid isn't insane. he was just fucking cut off. cut off from humanity. in ten years he'll know. he'll know and he'll still have 101 years to go. GODDAMNIT.

what gets my goat is the Liebermans and Tippers use the school shootings as cause for their modern day McCarthyism. When in fact school violence by teens is down from the 80s. Yet we are doing more to "protect" our schools and childeren, suspending kids say certain words or exhibit normal teen behavior yet interpreted by some pussy " counselor" via a school do gooder as indication of violence. Also teen pregnancy is down too, but no one mentions that. Our teens are overall better teens then they were 15 years ago, but we just keep making it harder for them to be teens. Im sometimes afraid of what they'll become. I too use video games to vent and im 26 for chrissakes. I bomb shit with flight simulators and use the old school Duke Nukem 3d to vent. the wife doesnt understand that i just need 15 minutes some days, just 15-20 minutes to blow shit up, shoot thing with a ridiculous gun that doesn't even exist (such as a shrinkray). She gets her nails done, I play video games.

Damn, I am not the only one. Too bad Kip did not find this page. I hate to say it, but I think 111 years in prison is way out of line. Get the kid help. Straighten his ass out, and let him do what he can to, thought there is no real way to do it, somehow compensate or attempt to compensate for what he did. His parents paid the ultimate price, though

i don't know. i have mixed feelings about his sentence. i think that he did what he did, and he pays the price. certainly, he's more fucked up now than he was before he started pulling triggers. prison will make him even more so. i think his parents got the easy way out. better dead than to know what your son had done.

I had a debate once in highschool in my debate class, it was Lincon Douglas Debate and the topic was RESOLVED: "Should the adolecentes right to privcy be valued above the parents conflicting right to know." Probably was the hardest topic I ever had to debate because of my conflicting opinions about the subject. Being an adolecent myself at the time, I wanted my privacy, and yet I understood that my parents had a right to know what I was doing because by law I was not an adult yet and thus my life was not completly my own. Although it seems today, that Parents are taking the affirmitive on said subject and giving their children all the privacy in the world. I probably wouldn't be here today if some people, including my parents hadn't just up and asked me "what the fuck is wrong." Kids today don't get that from anyone, so they have to find their own means of dealing with their problems. Which is just asinine. Trace, games like Quake and Doom are being out done everyday by games like Unreal Tournament, and Tribes 2. The graphic nature of these games are 10 times what quake and doom were. Granted I still play some quake and some doom from time to time because damnit they were good games. Games today on the other hand are giving realistic kill times, where a single bullet can kill your ass. Another thing the media blames youth violence on is Television, you know what I'm not going to go into that because it follows my same opinion on video games. It would cause problems if the parents would pay some fucking attention to their kids. I do feel TV is a detriment to our society but not in the means of violence desensitizing. TV is just making a society of brainless mindless sheep. Not saying that I don't watch TV, or movies, I love TV and movies. But I don't watch it that much and if I do its Discovery channel, History channel, the Learning channel or Animal Planet. WHY because if I don't learn something I feel guilty after I get done watching TV. Movies are a whole differnt matter. Parents need to get their kids reading, I can't even begin to imagine what my life would be like if it wasn't for the influence of a few specific authors and the books they wrote. Liturature is a very important part of our past, that is slowly dwindling away in this age of Television, and Computers. And fuck I'm a computer geek, its what I do for a living. But I still go home and read for a few hours before logging on to my favorite Tribes 2 server and killing a few dozen people.

I have never played unreal or tribes, but I guess I should try them

It's to bad the kids or their parents never saw this site. It might have saved some lives.

Protective Disclaimer: ANYTHING I SAY OR POST ON THIS BBS DOES NOT REFLECT IN ANY WAY THE VIEWS OF THE US GOVERNMENT.

you're going to get fired tracey.

Maybe... I doubt it though. .. Anyways, goodnight all, I will talk to later. If I do not make it to this sight this weekend, I will talk to you Monday! Have a great weekend.

Fuckin'-A, guys..... I'm in a big blast of agreement with a lot of this....also not a big fan of the Tippers and the Liebermans----or the Conservative Factions like the Bill O'Reilleys or the Bill Bennetts(Lieberman's mentor) who espouse the same kind of socially neutered newspeak..... People have used the arguments about TV as an influence for bad behavior as a means of fucking with ME and what I do....the tragedy of the Censorship Squad is they advocate "Responsibility" but have no real clue what it means....they're only interested in Scapegoating. Studies show a lot of things....there are studies aplenty----a lot of which even contradict each other. Regularly. Which goes back to my long-held "Truth is Dead" axiom. Trace----nice to see you again....it's been awhile.....

Don't worry Trace. I posted for over a year and ahalf from an Army Post and nothing happened. I kinda need to take a dump, but want to finish reviewing what happened here in the last 24 hours. Anyone else like that?

But I think my intial idea w/the thread is "Stupid People shouldn't Breed" or something to that effect....it's the same gut reaction when I heard about some guy beheading his kid out on the long island expressway....the youngest of the two sons escaped, I think----he said he was convinced they were "possessed by demons".... Part of me thinks we oughtta just hit the Panic Button, nuke it all and start over. I don't play(or generally LIKE) video games.....I have no hand/eye coordination....I wouldn't deny gaming enthusiasts their right to play 'em, tho. The Conspiracy Theorist Wacko in me has always been fond of the '80's notion that video games are marketed to train kids surreptitously for War.....but maybe the program backfired. Just playing Ray Bradbury here, folks....nothing serious. Nothing serious. Nothing serious.

Speaking of parental discipline, where the hell do you keep a pack of 27 vicious dogs all day, anyway?

in the basement, of course.

did i miss something? who said anything about a pack of vicious dogs?

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20010602/ts/dogs_standoff010602_1.html

wow. i heard about that story, but i didn't hear the part about the dogs. poor kids. poor dogs. they are all fucking doomed.

Hi Pug! That's one hell of a story, I heard about it a few days ago myself. Good question, where do those 27 vicious dogs live? As far as the kids living off of the land and not having electricity and gas and phone and whatnot, why is that considered neglet? While I agree it is a very distasteful prospect of living with out "modern convieniences" (I always mispell that word), I know the human civilazation did just fine for millions of years before they were discovered. It sounds like these people just dont get out all that often, like never...... Physicall abuse is never acceptable. IQ tests should be required before breeding is permited.

i before e,except after c.

what if it comes before and after??? Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences Conveniences I guess it does not.... oh well

Accountability. You're 8 years old,you steal a candy bar.You know its wrong.You know stealing is wrong. Theres factors here,that unfortunately,can't be changed. We live in a fast paced,2 income required,lifestyle. Mom can't be home,baking cookies and dolling out doillies.She's busy at work,so she can pay the electric bill,or buy groceries. Family unity has suffered for this.We're all guilty.We eat fast food on the run.One kids got football practice at 6:00pm,the other kid has dance lessons at 5:30,the dog needs to be picked up from the vet,and we're out of milk.I could go on and on.We all know the drill.We live in a fast paced world.And,[unfortunately],its not gonna change. Kids have no concept of the reality of violence,the after effects,if you will.Be it the games,TV or movies,they don't understand the consequences,because they are not indoctrined to that [distasteful] part. They see the guy get shot,or blown up.But thats all they see.They don't see the after effects.They don't see the guy 1 year down the road,with his colostomy,or his tracheotomy,or his permanent feeding tube. There was a very interesting piece I'd seen on TV a while back.It was a female ER MD,who brought a bunch of smart ass gang kids into the hospital,and showed them the reality of violence,they got to see first hand what it was all about.None of them were smart asses when they finished.They saw the blood and gore,and the after effects.They saw the tough gang leaders who weren't so tough,after being shot,but not killed,and somehow it just wasn't so glamourous,to see someone have to wipe their asses for them,or feed them a can of liquid nutrition through a permanent tube going directly into their stomachs. There is no easy answer to this problem.As we become more "civilized",we loose alot of family values,because [unfortunately] there isn't time for them.Its not right,but it is reality.And I don't think its gonna change any time soon. I grew up with firearms.My mom was a ARA instructor.I have a healthy respect for guns.And I also was taught that you don't show your gun unless you're gonna use it.Only once did I consider using one.I was being followed through the Blue mountains in Oregon,at night,and I was terribly frightened,they were very windey roads,and who ever was following me was driving like a maniac,and I had no doubt that they meant me serious harm.It was very difficult to pull myself together,and think rationally,because I was so scared.I had a 357 under the seat,and I decided that if this person did sucseed in getting me off the road,I would do what I had been taught.And that was to not show my weapon,and when they got within "jumping distance" to aim for the chest.No questions,no answers,just aim for the biggest target.I was scared,but had no doubt that I would have done it.My intent would have been to kill.End of story. These kids that are involved in todays shootings,basically have no concept of the reality of the horror they are involved in.They see previous shootings/massacres plastered all over the news,and it gives them ideas.Teenage years are tough.Its very difficult to figure out who you're gonna be,where you fit in.Again,I reiterate,they have no concept of the reality of the situation. I guess maybe the reality sets in,when you realize you're gonna be ass-fucked for the next 110 years,by guys named Bubba and Knuckles. Accountability.

Yes, but who is accountable? Parents, who, by financial necessity or by "keeping up with the joneses" syndrome, work two jobs or a broken home with only one parent, or kids? Parents, regardless of any situation, are the first teachers, counselors, healers, role models. We need to show them that they, as an individual life, is more important then material things. If we teach them we respect their needs and lives, then they should learn to respect their own, and that should follow to respecting (eventually) others. Accountability is ours first, to teach to our children, then theirs. I was listening to a "Christian" Phsyciatrist on the radio on the way to work today. He said that most parents (I am assuming he's living in a rose colored world) want to raise their children giving them nothing else other then love, love, love, love. He says he thinks parents think "well, if I just love them they will turn out ok". Then he said nothing else could be farther from the truth. Love, and Discipline through reality. If betty joe takes for ever to get ready for school, and she misses the bus, let her. When she asks you to take her to school, tell her you will, but she needs to wait til you get ready. then you drive her to school, give her a note to give to her teacher, saying that there is no excuse for her being tardy, please feel free to administer whatever discipline you give for un-excused tardies. Teach her accountability.

Can I send my kids to you Trace? Just kidding,I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.

That's ok, I have enought to handle with my two.

If you'll pardon the pun,"the right to bear children",does not necessitate competence in this area. Admittedly,parents should be the initial good influence in a childs life,but again,unfortunately,this is not always the case. Trace,as lovely as your ideal is,I think perhaps its you who is living in a rose colored world. If the world were full of "good and kind" people,there would be no need for this conversation. I,too,think that it is the parents responsibility to guide a child wisely through the formative years.Hell,thats why I do all the sports,scouts,4-H,etc. stuff with my kids.In the hope,that when it comes time for them to make a choice,that hopefully,some of this family stuff will have sunk in and made an impression,and hopefully they'll make the right choice.But I don't know what they'll choose. And what about the kid down the road,whose parents are alcoholics/crack heads etc.?His parents aren't accountable enough to be able to wipe their own asses,so what great coping tactics can they teach their kids? There are other societal influences that come into play.Neighbors,teachers,friends parents.The list goes on and on. And yes,individual accountability.I can give you an example from yesterday,involving my son. He had rented a vidio game,that was due back on Sat.[and I knew this] So,on Sat,I'm returning movies to the store,and ask about his game."Oh,its not due,untill Sunday",he tells me,we argued about this,and finally I had enough."Fine",I said. So,on Sunday,I was returning movies,and he wanted to rent a vidieo game.I said that I would not pay for it,that he had to.So,my kids hunted and scraped up the $3.00 to rent a game,and I sat in the car,while he went in.He came out with no game,and [unfortunately],tears in his eyes.His game was returned late,and he had to use his $3.00 to pay the late fee.And yes,it broke my heart to see my child with tears,but,it was a lesson he needed to learn.Consequences.

ok, you are right, but read this

my hands smell good

Trace,you miss my point.I DON'T want to be right.I too,would like the world to be a safe and wonderful place for all children and adults alike.I WANT to live in that rose colored world,I want my kids to be able to live in that rose colored world.But the reality is,that its not so rosey out there. And I'm gonna take a chance here,of offending you.I just read your post"Parents from hell". But I remember reading another post you had made about this couple,and their poor infant.I can't remember the details,but it was something equally gruesome,and I remember you making a cross reference about your wife and children.And I was completely amazed,that someone,who loved and cared for his family so much,could simply stand by and know this was happening to this innocent child,and not do anything about it.I'm sorry,but I have a real problem with this.I work in the health care field,and I unfortunately see the end result of this type of neglect/abuse.In this case,you were one of the "societal influences" I referred to earlier.What if your intervention could have spared this child this abuse?

We did do something about it. Do you think Annie would have driven to the hospital herself when they filed that report? We asked them to file it. The baby went to the doctor for his six month check up and they referred to a plastic surgeon because of his head, not to be evaluated for neglect. There is me, my wife, wy wife's grandmother, my wifes dad, mom, uncle, aunt, all involved in this mess. Erin's mom is one the "Parents from hell" in my opinion. she threatens to beat the shit out of erin to this day. She is a total bitch, and I am just lucky erin did not pick up her ways. Erin's grandmother, her mother's mom, is afraid of her. Erin has been scared shitless to call dfs. Our youngest, three months premature, sees a speech therapist once a week and an occupational therapist once a month. These people work for social services. we talk to them every time we see them about what's going on. Point Blank- DFS never does a damn thing until the kids are either hurt or dead. And Nurses think the worst in every situation. I hate taking hayley to the emergency room for an injury she gets while playing. Because I know the nurses and doctors are loking for signs of abuse. And if you asked my seven year old daughter what happened, no telling what comes out of her mouth. Kids know all they have to do these days is say "Daddy/Mommy spanked me" and thier parents are in trouble. If i had grounded her for lying that day or something, no telling what is going to come out of her mouth. Screwed up huh? Report things that do happen for real, and it gets ignored. Your kid complains, and all hell breaks loose.

BTW, I am not offended. I am glad to see some one care

You are a good soul Trace,I knew it right away,stay gold.

This happened to us years ago,Heather was 3,my husband and I were going out to dinner and my mom came over to babysit,so we weren't even home,Heather had speach therapy too(Talks just fine now,and too much)and was 75% unintelligble.Anyway my neighbor and friend had a little boy who was 3 too,she asked my mom if Heather could go to Chuck E.Cheese with them and my mom let her go.When we came home Heather was already asleep,Cindy told my mom that Heather had been hurt on a ride there and that she had a bloody nose,but it was okay.I went in to check on her the next morning and became hysterical,her little face looked like somebody had beat the hell out of her,two huge black eyes,I was afraid her nose was broken so my husband took her to the hospital,when he started to tell them what happened they told him that they wanted to hear it from her,needless to say that's when he realized they thought he might have done it.He came home almost in shock,I guess it took hours for them to finally understand what happened and let them go.Thank God she could speak better the next year,I had pneumonia and they let me out of the hospital because I was worried about how much my bill was going to cost,on the condition that my kids stayed at my moms,Heather fell off my moms exercise bike,my mom calls up too hysterical to drive her to the hospital,and tells me she split her lip opened and was going to look like a harelip the rest of her life,so now I'm hysterical too.My husband took her to the hospital emergency room,same drill 13 stitches and she doesn't have a scar.

Thanks J! Well, we went to the initial hearing today and a dependency hearing today..... 1. The judge decided that the baby should be temporarily placed in a foster home. 2. He also decided that whoever had contact with the baby for the last 2 weeks would not be allowed to see the baby until the police cleared them. Erin, myself, Erin's mom (melinda), Erin's dad (Marty) and Erin's grandmother (Ruth) were the only ones allowed to see him. 3. They decided that the injuries on the baby (severe skull fracture, subdermal hemotoba (i think that is right?), multiple bruises on the baby's face, thighs, buttocks and back, broken blood vessel in the left eye and lumb on the left side of the fore head were all in varying stages of healing, and none of them were the result of an accident. The game plan (our's): 1. Have Annie declared an unfit mother, not only based on abuse, but also neglet and general unwillingness to care for Christopher (Kissyfur as my youngest calls him). 2. Have him placed in temporary custody with Erin's folks (we do not have the resources to take on a third child, plus we are unsure as to the effect it would have on our girls to have him move in and live with us while all this junk is going on and then have him leave later on Erin would be taking care of Christopher during the day, and would receive pay for providing day care services. Wait and see what happens with Michael (the father). That is where my question lies. I spoke with mike myself today, cornered him in the bathroom. Right now, the way it looks, annie did indeed cause the injuries, but not all of them on sunday while he was at work. the skull fracture occured 7-10 days ago. why did he not notice? if he noticed, why did he not DO something (even something as small as calling marty and melinda and asking what he should do). He said he genuinely did not notice what had happened. I asked him if we was staying with Annie. He said it depended on whether or not the state files official charges against her or not. I told him that if he really wanted to help himself and christopher, he needed to be upfront and honest and tell them everything he knew. My question, could he really not notice what was going on?

Good thing she did not have a scar. I honestly believe annie did it. She was so cold in the court room today. Not a tear when they told her they were keeping her baby. they asked her what was most important to her, and she said that her and mike stay together. they said that that was all she said yesterday, over and over again that she wanted mike and her to say together. It seemed almost like she had an unhealthy infatuation with mike. they then said the most important thing to her should be getting christopher back. then they asked her again, and she said christopher....

best of luck Trace. what my heart passes for prayers are with you and your family. i hope that christopher finds his way into your household.

thanks nate

Do the right thing Trace,I know you will.

Thank you everyone, for your encouragement. The big show down will be June 28. The police should have the criminal portion completed by friday. From what I understand, the hemotoba (blood clot on the brain)is fatal 35% of the time, and it sneaks up on you. I just hope they can find out who did this, and may god have mercy on her soul, because I doubt anyone else will. He is my nephew, but I have always loved him more then just that.

When is she going back to jail? Is that her court date for the abuse charges on June 28th? That reminds me it's my s/o's birthday.

s/o??? No, that is the custody case. Her criminal charges court date is in august sometime, but they have not finished the investigation yet. Now Marty and Melinda have screwed things up pretty good. They invited Mike's parents over to see Christopher in the hospital (they asked the social worker permission to do that so they could shhow that they were being "fair"), and so Mark & Roxanne (mike's folks) came out with their 3 or 4 girls to the hospital. Remember, the baby was in the protected custody wing of the hospital, and only erin myself, marty, melinda and ruth were allowed to see him. So, guess what happened? Roxanne was cussing and fighting with melinda (surprise surprise), and now they have moved him to a foster home and no grandparents can see him. erin is calling the child advocate to get clarification on wethere we can see him or not. Melinda is going to shoot herself in the foot. Mike's plan is now clear. He have officially declared his intention to divorce annie. He is going to go through the classes so he can get christopher back. erin's parents support his discision.

so im just wondering when nate and trace are going to start trading sexual tricks. You two are practically there already.

don't sound so jealous, patrick.

sorry, it does not swing that way....

dude you know you'd take it in the ear for nate. you two are so lovey dovey since you got back...im wondering how much nate REALLY missed you.

"take it in the ear" I love that expression. Anybody remember a Richard Pryor bit, something about he's over at his friend's house and his friend's monkey's got his dick in his ear? I've searched for it online but can't find it. Damn, in months past, I woulda been all over this thread like white on rice, chiming in with some stupid quip. Just can't seem to find the energy or the interest lately.

i remember the monkey bit. i think it was from "live on sunset strip." i always remember that film because i saw it with my father, and he sat through the entire thing stone-faced except for the 'italians" bit. in the version i remember, he owned the monkey. then it died. then his dog came up to him and said: "whatsamatter richard?" "my monkey died." "that monkey that was always stickin' its dick in your ear?" "yeah." "that's a bitch, man. i was gonna eat that monkey." somethin' like that. or maybe he was keeping the monkey for a friend. i don't know.

Yeah, that could be it droopy, but somehow I remember him saying something like "You wanna tell your monkey to get his dick out of my ear" or something like that. The "I was gonna eat that monkey" sounds familiar though.

i'm sure we're both remembering bits and filling in the rest. if i'm right about it being "live on sunset strip," then that's 19 freakin' years ago.

Could be. Seems longer than 19 years ago, I would've been 19, and I seem to remember listening to it junior high.

what is all the fuss violent vidio games are not to blame for murders it is the screwed up person who plays them