is it just me, or has everyone gotten their fill of this Timothy McVeigh execution? I realize by starting a thread on it, I am perhaps perpetuating it...but what is more bothersome than the act itself and the fact that my sorry ass government believes in such practices, but the media attention, the salivating public, and the moronic victims families. Instead of keeping this murderer locked up for life, not to hear a peep out of him, all we have heard is Timothy McVeigh Timothy McVeigh and so on. The victims have actually been disserviced by the fact he was executed. Have you read the papers on this story? What are you looking at? What is so damn interesting about this? SOMEBODY must be looking, listening and talking? I haven't read a single article or listened to a fucking report on this crap. Its sick. The world must think we are monsters. (or did they already?) my head hurts and you arent helping.

medication caused me to wake and run for the bathroom in the wee hours of this morning, so i spent the few minutes on and around 7:14am crying and throwing up. It was so perfectly fitting, i had to question whether it was coincidence or not.

I support the death penalty, however... In this instance I agree with Patrick. better to lock him up for life and never hear another word about him then immortalize/martyr/sensasionalize him by making him the 1st federal execution since 1963.

And hey, guess what? All those folks he killed are STILL DEAD. And now we have lost any information that might lead to a better understanding of why this happened and who was involved with McVeigh. Lone Nut My Ass.

Amen. He could not have cooked this thing up himself

It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have.

we're not talking from experience, are we????

You know, I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

ok then. Hey, if you have any more homicidal tendencies, I have a few here in KC......

What has amazed me is the lack of attention given to any protest of the death penalty outside the prison. Here is a guy who admitted killing 167 people. He asked for death, and was given it. For the hypocricy to not be apparent, the whack-a-doos who protest against execution should have been there in full force. Despite his wishes, and federal law, they owed it to the cause to rail against execution, no matter what the circumstance and who the convict. They may have been there, but I haven't heard any mention of a protest along these lines.

Note to self: Stay away from Reno when semillama (love just saying that name) is in town

Yes, scant reporting from the media, but that doesn't mean there weren't protesters. From the Chicago Tribune: "Death penalty opponents sat in a circle on dewy grass and, vigil candles in hand, prayed for 168 minutes to represent the 168 victims of the bombing, as well as for McVeigh. "Yes, we find ourselves praying for Timothy McVeigh and his family, and for all those who sit on Death Row," said Sister Ann Casper, a Sister of Providence from St. Mary-of-the-Woods College near Terre Haute." From the NY Times: "Outside the prison, protesters for and against the execution - separated by about 500 yards - gathered shortly after midnight. At 4:12 a.m. C.D.T., about 200 people who oppose the death penalty sat down in a circle, holding candles and reading silently the names of the 168 victims of the Oklahoma City blast. Across the way, about 35 protesters who support the death penalty, paused for 168 seconds of silence. They then recited the Lord's Prayer, ending with one woman shouting out ``Die McVeigh.'' Robert Nigh Jr., one of Mr. McVeigh's defense lawyers and a witness to his death, asserted that there was a more reasonable way to deal with a criminal short of executing him. ``If there is anything good that can come from the execution of Tim McVeigh, it may be to help us realize that we cannot do this anymore,'' Mr. Nigh said. ``I am firmly convinced that it is not a a question of if we will stop. It is simply a question of when.''" I personally find this sentence amusing: "They then recited the Lord's Prayer, ending with one woman shouting out ``Die McVeigh.''" She probably figures the line, "...and forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." doesn't apply to her.

We had Whack-a-doo's here in KC at the federal building.

Note to Trace: Find copy of Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues." Listen carefully.

otay

i'm not convinced that there exists a just punishment for what mcveigh did, not even death. maybe that's just due to lack of imagination. i would say the same for convicted rapists, child molesters, and any murderer. i don't believe a goverment should be granted the right to kill. killing is immoral and illegal and awful, no matter how it's done or by whom. the process of execution is entirely horrifying.

60 Minutes noted an interesting fact last night: McVeigh had lots of access to the press. Kevorkian, still imprisoned, is barred from talking to the press.

Note to Trace: find a copy of Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven." Watch & listen carefully.

Note to Harrison Ford: find a copy of D H Lawrence's "Lady Chatterley's Lover". Come and prune my rose bushes.

8777 k dammit i typed this huge ass post and the kitten just jumped on the keyboard. That message above is a secret code from her/him.

me and moonit and droopy all have new kittens. coincidence? I THINK NOT!

Question to all cat people here: I have a cat named Emily, she's 14. Total house cat, never goes outside, and is definitely queen of the castle. She's a 25 pounder, but she's suprisingly agile for her age and weight. She's never had another pet around to contend with. My s/o wants a new kitten. I keep saying to her that she wouldn't be good with another animal, and that she wouldn't understand having a new animal around. Any comments pro or con?

my cat would go crazy if a kitten was ever brought home. But at the same time, you have to wonder, if the kitten was young enough, would the older cat take care of it? that was not helpful at all.

Another addition to Agatha's moral gatekeeper rules: Thou shalt move the thread as far as possible away from the original topic of discussion as quickly as humanly possible. Or try dying.

Yeah, that's what I thought wisper. Maybe Emily would try to be its mother. But probably not. I'd probably get home only to find tufts of hair and bit of tail left of the kitten.

kitties are like any other creature. they will adapt. cats don't like to be pissed off forever. we got our younger cat so the older one would have some company while were at work. at first the older was the biggest bitch around. scurried about, only came out of hiding to eat, and showed us no affection what so ever. after several weeks....she started to lighten up. the two are now inseperable sisters. its good because the "leetle one" or isabella keeps karenin active, though she may get on her nerves at times, they run and play. who would she chase if the "leetle one" wasnt around? i found this also to be true when my step dad brought home his pup Buster when i was a kid. At first dudley was bossy, shoved him around and acted like a dick and they then became best of buddies. in fact when buster died first, my parents totally noticed a difference in dudley. he missed his companion. animals like and need socialization with each other like any other creature. i say go for it dougie. she may be a stinker for a while, but she may actually come to appreciate the company after some time. the kitten, after some time, can help keep her active with exercise. just look after the kitten , see to it she doesnt get hurt, too much. and play ref a bit ...i mean in the older cats mind there is territory to claim. So there is a certain degree or rites of passage the kitten has to go through...so don't be too hard on the older one.

it won't be its mother. it will be its older sister. if you makes you feel better, keep them seperated while you are away for the first week or so. bring them out together, give them equal amounts of love if not more to the older one so she doesnt feel slighted. Pamper her a bit even.

and id recommend the same sex. you dont need inate breeding desires to complicate this.

"inate" breeding desires are always SUCH a complication.

Thanks, Patrick. Maybe it would work. Yes Cat, you're right. I had to turn off my innate breeding desires when I got Emily. It was a complication, but I eventually came through with flying colors, and she was not much the worse for wear either.

piss off

piss off cat rather

Cat rather piss off

i have nothing useful to offer about felines. mattie is asleep on the floor next to me. i was running around in 92 degree texas weather all afternoon. when i came home i had a cold modelo. then i had some refried beans and rice, mango, and another modelo. then i had a shot of now expensive tequila. then i had another one. i am now as mellow as my cat. i am trying to fight the urge to have one last tequila. i may not be able to resist.

fuck. that is so unfair.

My cat's rather piss on, actually on my clothes, my bed, my new couch....

went off and put in a load of laundry, washed a few plates. when i came back the cat had turned on her back. she was in a deep sleep and her legs were sprawled in every direction and she kind of looked dead. i hate it when cats do this - you know they're just crashed, but you can't help wanting to check. i tickled her feet and her eyes popped open and she gave me a little kick. absofuckinlutely the last tequila. i am a man of restraint.

'Note to Trace: Find copy of Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues." Listen carefully.' OK, I did. I downloaded it, then listened to it. First of all, what did I do to deserve that????? So that is where you got the reno reference. Where did semillama come from?

Folsom Prison Blues Rocks. The cat will adjust. But you will hear about it for a LOOOOOOONG time. Bell kicked my ass when I got Shadow, but he eventually got over it and now they're good friends. Asleep holding each other's paws at the moment, actually. And people who watch executions are sick. I think that the most fitting punishment for McViegh would have been life in federal prison without possibility of parole--because federal prison is an awful, awful place. I like that Bush felt it neccessary to stress that this execution was "not revenge, it was justice." Whatever.

back to killing, i support the death penalty but i think the death should be at the hands of the victim's family (no, not these guys) if they choose it. if they choose not to, the person rots in prison. i don't like that there is a tiny window of opportunity for a person to legitimately kill an attacker, a window that closes once the attacker get away. they, in effect, win. that's that. fuck that.

I again support it, but I saw a clip on Fox News where they were asking if it should be televised. ABSOLUTELY NOT! They are between the victim's family and the convict's family and they people killing him. That is it.

No televised executions UNTIL CBS can learn to make it into a reality based TV show. "Ten prisoners, one electric chair... Watch as they participate in cell cleaning, weight lifting, tray tossing and other acts of prison yard skill. Be sure to stick around for the cliff hanger ending where the final two convicts participate in a grueling bout of anal brutality to decide who lives, and who just bleeds." That would ROCK! (Especially if Johnny Cash did the soundtrack)

Going down down down, into the ring of fire. and it burns burns burn, the ring of fire.

see, now you know johnny spent tine in lock-up.

""B G_____g says "we definitely took a step back in civilization today." He thinks that McVeigh ran into FBI and CIA men planted in neo-Nazi splinter groups and that they likely encouraged him to plan a bombing (so they could nail him for it later). Then the agencies lost track of him."" accidentally got to view the anti-d. penalty protesters in a circle this morning right around 8am. Saw A commentator and his cameraman focusing in on a bird that landed on a lady protestes arm. .. quite a moment . . . the wild bird was just perching on her arm. . . the commentator was moved and . . . then interrupted for some dumb announcement. timmy should have been kempt in prison doing hard labor for life. . . no death penalty support here, God spare us all. another page: a friend was visiting his grandmother during her hospital stay and the doctors were extremely freakked when Waco was being attacked and set on fire. . . "What's happening. . . why are they doing this?". . .they asked my humble friend. (because 3 federal men barged in on the Davidian compound and were killed, that meant Trouble) The Doctors were shocked, horrified and confused. I'm not thinking about this any more. check please. oh, friend cheered them up with howard stern jokes like 'how many davidians can fit into a phone booth?" ALL of them. they could fit in the coin return of the pay phone booth. har de haw haw. Just say Levity sent you.

How did we get from Johnny Cash to the Branch Davidians? Oh yeah- Down down down in a burning ring of fire. They went down down down, and the flames grew higher, and it burned, burned burned, the ring of fire. The ring of fire. My weird observance of the day: Recent news coverage has reminded me of the history of domestic terrorism in the US, and has made me wonder if I was not born standing on the gates to hell. My birthday is 4-20, which causes endless enjoyment to my stoner friends, but check out some of the events that share my birthday.... April 20, 1889: Adolph Hitler is born April 20, 1912: Bram Stoker dies April 20, 1972: Mrs. Dennis Rodman (Carmen Electra)is born April 20, 1976: Joey Lawrence is born (EWWW) April 20, 1991: George Bush bombs Iraq April 20, 1993: The day AFTER Waco April 20, 1995: The day AFTER Oklahoma City April 20, 1999: Columbine shootings What will happen next?

what the fuck is wrong with muslims? this and the taliban, among other examples (bosnia?), is enough to make me want to smite (thx, sem) them. don't bother comparing christians and jews and whatnot: i'm right there. but this shit is fucking savage and these cretins need to be snuffed out. fuck iraq, let's start a war with the taliban in afghanistan. just don't hurt the nice folks. LEAVE THE FUCKING NICE PEOPLE ALONE YOU SONOFABITCHES!! fucking religion.

ok, so not the bosnian muslims. but give 'em ½ a chance and they'll do the same shit. i say it again: FUCKING RELIGION! fools! kill you! death to fanatics!

Yeah! Death To Fanatics! Hate will not be tolerated! Silence the voice of censorship! And Fuck Sex while you're at it!

fuck sex, hummm

Dave that article has nothing to do with the Taliban. The Taliban is a sovereign state. Whether we like their politics and culture...fuck it, it's not for us to judge. Its in the Phillipines. I'm not sympathetic to Christian missionaries who go to third world countries to bring them christ. The Phillipines and Indonesia have been riddled with civil unrest from Islamic militants for a while now. They took a risk going there. When the wife was possbily going to Jakarta, I strongly opposed it. Its tragic, and yes, for a brief moment I'd love to see Navy Seals go and mow them down, get our hostages and come home like a fucking Steven Segal flic. But the reality is, the missionaries took a risk being there. I just got a perspective on the world last night from a photo essay in the current Aperture magazine. It's by Sebastiao Salgado called Migrations:Humanity in Transition and The Children . Its essay that depicts the world's suffering from overpopulation, and subsequent toll it takes on children in particular. It also touches on how 1 American consume as much energy as 2 Germans 4 Dutch 10 Russians 40 Chinese 500 Indians and so on. How in a split second, 5 children are born and 2 other people die giving a growth rate of 3/second. It's incredible to see in photographic form the suffering. Most of it simply has to do with the distribution of wealth. and im think I'm wandering here.....yes..I am, If you happen by a newstand, stop and pick it up for a second and check it out, or even buy it. It's an amazing issue.

i know their different. but they both suck ass. women in afghanistan getting snuffed for eating ice cream? beheading missionaries? islam is a religion for psychotic men.

so Malcom X was psychotic?

Islam is a religion for power hungry men. Women in the airforce have to wear the ceremonial garb when they are off base, even when they are in uniform. could you imagine being in full uniform AND a black garb? at least they don't have to have a jewel stuck on their forhead

what a dumbass thing to say trace. Islam is no more retarded that Christianity...which you could equally argue is also a relgion of power and control. Can you imagine having to go to church every Sunday and Wednesday eat crackers and grape juice that are supposed to be the blood and body of Christ? Can you imagine? That sounds just as ludicruous as the black garb. Or better yet, wearing a cross around your neck? God how insane is that.

The specific fundamentalism of the Taliban is not worth sticking up for Patrick, and fuck that sovereign state shit. Nazi Germany was a sovereign state too. How's this for a parallel? Oh, we just gave them $43 million in domestic aid, too.

i did not say that christianity is not retarded. i dont particulary think it was a dumb ass thing to say. I was pointing out the crap about it. I agree with what you are saying about christianity. I was forced to go to church 3 times a week and graduated from a christian school. <shiver> To me, Christianity has been a weapon for people to use to tell them how much better they are then you, and how evil you are, and to tell you how to live your life (insert any religion there), all the while they are doing the same thing behind your back

i say we just blow the entire middle east off the map. We have the tecnology. The surrounding countries wouldn't even feel it. Come on, you've thought about it.

christianity is stupid! communism is good! christianity is stupid! communism is good! somebody call puzzling evidence. QUICKLY. GODDAMNIT DO IT NOW. GODDAMNIT. you all fucking suck. i'm angry. all you americans are murderers. ALL YOU PRIESTS OF ROME. ALL YOU MURDERERS.

i was listening to bbc radio last night. the swiss compared us to stalinist russia.

oh i wholly agree sem that Taliban fundamentalism is not worth sticking up for. For the record I find the Taliban in Afghanistan deplorable. But when do you roll in the troops and liberate? Yeah Nazi Germany was a sovereign state that also violated other sovereign states. And it was at THAT point the tanks rolled out. Should they have rolled out simply on ideology? Policing the world is a touchy subject. The Taliban treats women and its citizens in a horrific manner. Wheres the point when tanks are justified? Condeming the Taliban is not different than the Swiss or any one else condeming the US for its death penalty practices. All I was trying to point out trace, you cant judge one religion without looking at them all. they all are about power and control, and what you say about one could easily be applied to the other. Harping on the specifics is not really the point. I can imagine wearing a white collar so tight around my neck anymore than you can imagine wearign the black gard over a uniform.

SCIENCE IS YOUR RELIGON, AMERICAN PErSON,. AND FOR THAT YOU WILL DIE.

So, Patrick, what you are saying is that if the Nazis had stuck to slaughtering only the Jews, Communists and Homosexuals in Germany, that wouldn't have justified any punitive action? So you don't think killing women for eating ice cream isn't a call to action? Hell, if we gave guns to Iran, we might as well load up the guys fighting the Taliban as well.

It is true that McVeigh attended militia and Neo-Nazi meetings, but he was not a member of them. The militias did subsequently discover 'plants' - members of the CIA, FBI, that were attempting to infiltrate the Militias and Neo-Nazi organisations to gather 'sensitive information'. The Militias discovered these 'plants' and quickly weeded them out. My information is that the Federal government knew about the bombing attempt before it happened. They told all their military personnel to 'stay home' that day, while allowing all the civilians and children to show up. The federal government set them up to be killed. McVeigh's truck bomb did not detonate as he had planned, because he had 'painted' the fuse, which smothered it out as he ran away wondering why it had not detonated. A camouflaged federal soldier was then ordered by the FBI to fire into the drums at point blank range with a .45 caliber standard issue sidearm, which 'detonated' the blast. The federal soldier's 'camouflaged' leg was later found in the rubble, but he was never identified. (Q:Why would someone consciously kill himself, McVeigh at least made a good run for it. we don't have commandos with kamikaze training.) When the Chief Fire Marshall arrived on the scene, he noticed undetonated explosives wrapped around the building's base columns, which he had to order his firemen to 'disarm' prior to making any rescue attempt, which was recorded by the fire department's dispatch office recorder. The wrapping of explosives around the base columns were designed to detonate in cascade, and bring the whole building down. Seven drums of Ammonium Nitrate and Diesel fuel is not sufficient to accoplish this, however, can initiate the detonation cascade of the base columns. (Q:If you say so, thought that to detonate that type of explosive it has to be stuck into it, it can't just be a yards blast through more walls. . .? I thought the total weight was 3THOUSAND pounds. It appeared to be sufficient when you look at the pictures of the building. No type of explosive can be detonated by the shockwave attenuateed by distance and barriers i.e. that is, building walls.) After the detonation, the Federal Government first publicly blamed the 'Militias' for the bombing, (Q: No they didn't they blamed foreign terrorists.) hoping to draw sympathy for the Federal Government, and civilian hatred for the Militias. The Militias were not involved and were the first to condemn the attack. A female reporter who witnessed McVeigh's execution claimed that McVeigh was 'still breathing' even after he was pronounced 'clinically dead'. Now rumors abound that McVeigh was not actually executed, and his alledged execution was just a 'show' for the victims families to draw attention away from the actual perpatrators, a 'scapegoat', and that his 'cremation' was just a 'cover story'. Workers at the crematorium never saw McVeigh's deceased body because they had 'sealed' his casket, and some believe a 'medical cadaver' was substituted in its place, so nobody could verify that he was not actually executed, and that no 'resumation' would be possible to verify that he was not actually executed. McVeigh did not act alone, yet the government made no attempt to find his co-conspirators. Rumors abound that McVeigh was subsequently flown down to South America, where he now enjoys sitting on a beach drinking pinucoladas, 'invictus' - undefeated.

my head is spinning again RELIGION-BAD SCIENCE-GOOD NATE-NOT SURE

UGH i just bumped my neandrothal forehead on ceiling. hurts. must lie down. must sleep.

No, just the opposite. All im trying to point out is that we (the world and gov'ts) are often pussies about these kinds of things. Are YOU saying this requires military action? Is that the action you speak of? Recall, no one mobilized against Germany until they moved tanks into Poland and Belgium. Im trying to get you to commit to saying that the Taliban should change its ways or face American and possibly NATO military force. We let the Rwandan genocide go...it took us forever to step into Bosnia and Kosovo. You could argue the human attrocities in Chechnya and practially everywhere in Indonesia and Africa and parts of Asia require the same action. Genocide and persecution are happening everywhere at this moment. The question i pose to you, is WHAT action do you suggest? Are you activily suggesting we police the world in such a way? Not only did Rummsfield suggest we cancel the two front military concept...but in this hypothetical instance we'd have to establish 10 front military stance in order to combat whats happening in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

trace: RELIGON-BAD SCIENCE-BAD NATE-BAD it's easier to remember that way. everything is bad. don't think. believe in nothing.

Well, are you suggesting we just sit idley by? Maybe we shouldn't bomb them but we should be doing more than shaking our fingers at this.

Um, I hate to give any credance to the email posted above, but I do know that they have always done an autopsy on lethal injections, and this time, at McVeigh's instance, there was none. Also, as far as the cremation goes, he instructed the final resting place of the ashes to be classified, no one, not even his family, knows where they went. I heard this on ABC Radio yesterday morning. The anchor was fed this information from the fed's...

sit idle no. im actually saying i dont know what the solution should be. i suppose im being one of the "pussies" i mentioned. policing the world is a tricky business. But if i were to advocate any action in Afghanistan, id have to be advocate action, military or political in about 10-15 other hotbeds around the globe.

Gottas start somewhere. Can't think of a better justification for a bloated military budget either.

go for it, dude! i got your back. if i were able, i'd go in anywhere the police are abusing the citizen's they're supposed to protect. if well-behaved citizens can't call the police to help because the police are the antagonists, something needs to be done. a simple-minded approach, i know. isn't this what the u.n. is for?

you are somewhere the police are abusing the citizens they are sworn to protect.

damnit, nate beat me to it.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,2109688%255E421,00.html Doesn't this make sense? Imagine if the police actually had to obey the law?

It would make sense if I could find the page. The image of foreign troops rounding up our cops and putting them in prisons is somehow appealing.

Sorry lovies, must be the bloody wombats chewing on the links again: FORMER police officer was ordered to pay the NSW Government $182,000 yesterday after it counter-sued him for the amount it paid an Aboriginal man he bashed while on duty. The action is believed to be the first of its kind made by an Australian government against a police officer. The NSW Police Association warned last night it set a dangerous precedent. The District Court ruled that the 1997 bashing of Vernon Moran, recorded on closed-circuit television, was "callous and brutal" and that Peter Elliot Connett could blame no one else for his actions. The recording played to a damages hearing brought by Mr Moran last week shows him being hurled against a police station wall and then being dragged by his hair from the room. The police service refused to comment on the ruling last night, but on Friday, police commissioner Peter Ryan apologised to Mr Moran and his family and ordered a new inquiry into the incident. It also paid him an undisclosed sum in an out-of-court settlement. In his ruling yesterday, Judge Roger Keleman attacked the inaction of two other police officers who were in the room at the time. He found that the combined inaction of Mr Connett and his colleagues "(showed) apparent complete indifference to the plight of the plaintiff ... (they were) shown to be in a position to observe and again acted with apparent complete indifference". As a result, the Government was entitled to a complete indemnity from liability, Judge Keleman ruled. Mr Connett, a former senior constable, was not in court and was not legally represented, a fact the Police Association said may have led to the judgment being flawed. "As a result, it's extremely doubtful that all the available evidence was presented during the case," association secretary Peter Remfrey said. "The decision in our view has major inconsistencies." On Friday, the association said Mr Connett had suffered work-related stress before the assault from 18 years of frontline policework. Mr Connett could not be contacted last night but he is understood to be considering an appeal. It is not known how Mr Connett would be expected to pay the damages, but one option being considered is docking his police pension. The Government was awarded $120,000 in exemplary damages, with the rest of the payout comprising aggravated damages and costs. Mr Ryan said images in the videotape, which were broadcast widely, set back five years of reform and "did not do much for how we are viewed overseas".

Why is everyone always worried about what they look like to their neighbors? How about how they look to themselves?

there is a fine line between policing the world and imperialism sem and thats kinda of what bothers me. In Iraq we were supposedly protecting Kuwait. Iraq was known to treat its citizens not much better than Afghanistan currently does. Did we liberate the Kurds? No we left them high and dry only to be pounded by Saddam once we split. I, for one, was against the Gulf War. So this poses a very difficult paradox to deal with. What would be the difference in stepping to Afghanistan's business and how we currently meddle in Iraq's? If I am not mistaken, no one but Iran, China and someone else recognizes the Taliban as an official gov't. So in essence they have been isolated. What next? Sanctions? We see the effect of that with Iraq.

"Iraq was known to treat its citizens not much better than Afghanistan currently does." this is false. Iraq is a leader of human (women's, even) rights in the middle east. eat it patty. goddamnit EAT IT.

as i said....not much better. better yes, but not by much. i wouldn't say Iraq is a leader in womens rights. In fact...before i eat anything, Id like to see your source of that info buddy. see for the Amnesty Reports yourself sugarbritches Iraq Taleban

"The sanctions have crippled the country's economic infrastructure and have contributed to a deteriorating economic situation, increased unemployment, rising malnutrition and mortality levels and widespread corruption. In 1999, UNICEF estimated that sanctions had contributed to the deaths of some 500,000 children under the age of five." that's pretty brutal. oh yeah, that's the US's doing. which, speaking of brutal: USA Israel

mid east summary according to Amnesty. Yeah nate, they sound like shining examples of human rights' leaders. Give me to option to go to Bahrain, UAE or Qatar first anyday. ************************************************ In Iraq, hundreds of people, including possible prisoners of conscience were executed. Arbitrary arrest, detention and torture of political opponents continued. Although the human rights situation in Iraqi Kurdistan had gradually improved since the cease-fire declared in 1997, cases of human rights abuses, such as arbitrary arrest and political killings, continued to occur. ************************************************ In Yemen a number of prisoners of conscience, mainly journalists, were arrested and detained for short periods during 1999. Torture continued to be reported. The death penalty continued to be imposed and the judicial punishment of flogging, amounting to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment was a regular occurrence ************************************************ In Bahrain many political prisoners were released but several hundred others arrested in previous years continued to be held without charge or trial. The authorities continued to ban several Bahraini nationals from returning to the country. ************************************************* In the United Arab Emirates at least eight people were sentenced to death during 1999, seven of whom were foreign nationals. Six of the eight were reportedly sentenced to death on drug-related charges. ************************************************ In Qatar the government failed to clarify the legal status of Abd al-Rahman bin Amir al-Naimi detained since June 1998, apparently on political grounds. ************************************************ In Syria hundreds of prisoners of conscience and other political prisoners remained behind bars. Cases of death in custody, inhuman prison conditions and application of the death penalty were reported during 1999. ************************************************* In Israel most members of the security forces enjoyed impunity for human rights violations. Torture continued to be officially permitted and systematically used until September when the High Court of Justice ruled that such methods of interrogation were unlawful. However, reports of Palestinians being beaten and otherwise ill-treated at checkpoints continued to be received. Eight Palestinian civilians were extrajudicially killed or killed from excessive use of force. About 1,500 Palestinians and 29 Lebanese, including 16 held as hostages, continued to be detained. In Israeli-occupied South Lebanon, more than 150 Lebanese were held without charge or trial in Khiam Detention Centre. ************************************************* In Kuwait , dozens of political prisoners, including prisoners of conscience, continued to be held in prison following their conviction in unfair trials since 1991. Despite the government's positive steps towards reform, it failed to address past violations including extrajudicial executions and unfair trials by the Martial law and State Security Courts ************************************************* In Saudi Arabia. Torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment continued . Amnesty International recorded 103 executions in 1999, though the actual total may well have been higher. Criminal judicial procedures fell far short of international standards, with detainees denied the right of access to a lawyer, the right to defence and the right to appeal. Safeguards against the use of confessions gained under torture were lacking. Political and religious freedom continued to be severely curtailed in Saudi Arabia, and a number of people were arrested during the year on political or religious grounds. Some were held without charge or trial and without access to their families or lawyers for prolonged periods

trust me I read both US and Israel, knowing you'd point them out. There is no denying either one. Im not sure the sanctions forced the Iraqi gov't to torture or abuse its citizens though. I don't deny the impact, but we are talking about what one's gov't does to one's citizens not what one country imposes on another, such as sanctions.

"i wouldn't say Iraq is a leader in womens rights" was, my man. before the gulf war. Saddam took the money from oil and put it into the infrastructure of the nation. most rulers in the middle east took the money from oil and bought fleets of mercedes for their children. iraq, previous to the gulf war, had the most highly educated population of the area. a literacy rate much higher than ours. running water and sewers and electricity for the bulk of the popluation. iraq was a civilized country in the midst of some pretty whack places. "America stands where it always has, against aggression, against those who would use force to replace the rule of law." -George H. Bush Turkey (one of our largest customers of weapontry.)

previous to the gulf war Saddam was our good buddy. we gave him tons of weapons of mass destruction, and he was a favored trading partner.

i know, nate. absolutely. i've come to the conclusion that the problem is men. if every woman would simply kill a man while he slept, the problem would go away. women of the world, the world needs you now more than it ever has.

yes dave, i believe you are right. so really, when it comes down to it, the ills of the world are caused by the inaction of women.

bingo.

please dont kill me while i sleep.

I think I will leave this one alone...

sleep tight, trace.

Hey everyone! Trace is leaving this one alone. I'm so glad he told us, because I would never ever have worked it out for myself in a million trillion years.

that's not nice, cat.

I'm just going to leave that alone, Nate.

could you go check on trace and see if he's sleepin' yet?

Nooo, I'd be too tempted to jump him, he's such a spunkrat. Yes indeedy do, he's Mr Spunkrat.

spunkrat. holy shit.

Nate, You're not talking about jumping ME, are you???

i'm not talking about jumping anyone, spunkrat.

I read it wrong, sorry. dont know how i can confuse cat with you... cant tyoe very well withot glasses either

Well, ive been trying to think of a new screen name, but i dunno if i could use one you all created, i gotta think about this

go ahead. be spunkrat. my parents created my "screen name". nomdescreeno.

corny.

FUCK OFF FOOTASS.

That's not very nice, dave. That's not very nice, Nate.

'i've come to the conclusion that the problem is men.' i'm sorry dave. I know you were maybe just being sarcastic but i've heard this argument used too many times in reality to read it again and stay idle. Behold, the misogynist with ovaries. if women were in charge (whatever your definition of "in charge" is) the world would die as fast and as furiously as it is now. And it would also be painted some gay-ass colour.** Everything men have in brutality, oppression and weapon obsession, women have in indifference, superficiality and pointless competition. Harpies. **-Thank you, Rollins.

Then we are all doomed. So eat, fuck, and be happy

An interesting point: Terrorism aside, Libya is a fairly progressive country. I think a good idea for a ovel or comic book would be set in the not too distant future. Then, instead of gov'ts acting to police the world, it would be multinational corporations who use their private security forces to topple gov'ts that restrict their market access. So, a combined force of The Gap, Victoria's Secret and a few major shoe companies would invade Afghanistan.

That would be fun to watch. Would they be in lengerie?

we started out as terrorists. we're terrorists now. terrorism aside, the US is a fairly pregressive country.

trace your spunkrat handle is going to give me nightmares you perverted fuck.

shush up patrick. don't let on.

I think I know sick

keep spunkrat, i like it. i also like feta cheese and Right Said Fred, so judge my advice however you wish.

definitely keep spunkrat. drop the trace bit.

spunkrat spunkrat spoatypapa.

"Integrity of views more than their soundness, is the basis of esteem." - Thomas Jefferson

that would be the slipperiness of human reason ?

Did anyone else hear G.W. a few weeks ago say, "There can never be peace while there's war in the Middle East." Well, at least he can state the obvious. And meanwhile, we were bombing more sites in Iraq, because they shot at our planes. It's all so idiotic and childish...tit-for-tat/lex talionis...dare me to do it, you (insert racial slur here). McVeigh had a weakness for hot apple pie...what's more American than that? It's scarey that he's a martyr in some circles now.

its like sports announcers who say things like "by the end of this period we will have a winner." fucking brilliant!!!!!

"that was a great golf shot" i kept hearing that yesterday. no shit, sparky. he's standing in a field with a set of golf clubs, he's not going to make a great tennis serve.

i don't understand how much valium you have to be on, to enjoy watching a golf game on TV.

do you understand the concept of father's day? the big joke from yesterday was that my grandfather and my dad both fell asleep watching golf, and then someone snored and woke them both up. but who snored??? hahahaha. when this happened i was still looking at pictures of my parent's columbia river cruise with my mom and heather.

no i don't nate. my dad is dead.

I had a great father's day. Called my pops in the morning, wished him well and told him he was a great dad, then went out and bought a new Rawlings baseball mitt, a new Penn rod and reel, some CDs at Tower, and some books at Barnes & Noble. Then had soft shell crabs for dinner, watched Crouching Dragon, Hidden Tiger, got laid and went to bed.

actually i was given a glass chess set by the pussy cats for "being such mrroow meoowwww mewwoooo super daddy"

sorry patrick. i was just talking about doing something for someone else because it is there day, even if you don't have any valium.

i know and i was giving you a hard time. i actually didn't put the two together until you mentioned there. actually now that i recall....my step dad and grandfather spent a lot of time in grandpa's "lair" watching golf and drinking gin.

jeeeeezus patrick

what?

just "getting his goat" if thats what you are talking about.

that's not what i'm talking about 2+2=5,624

let me clarify.... i noticed yesterday there seemed to be golf on every major channel...what i failed to put together was that fact there there is a lot of televised golf on fathers day. i was actually thinking more in terms of network programming. not the concept of fathers day and doing things with your pops you may not ordinarily do.

i don't think heather was talking about father's day, patty.

"when this happened i was still looking at pictures of my parent's columbia river cruise with my mom and heather." Same heather? If so, sister? Aunt? Somebody you picked up at Walmart?

probably walmart, knowing nate

sam's choice grape soda 25 cents.

Blushing spunks - $3.50 on a red light special.

I'll leave that alone.But I will ask why your parents took a Columbia river cruise?

why not? old people take cruises.

I think it'd be fun to take a cruise from nuclear plant to nuclear plant on the columbia river. back when I was a very good, strong swimmer, I tried to swim across it, but still I thought, "this is how people die."

there are some mighty big ships moving around on the columbia. my stepmom's boyfriend has about a ½ mile of beachfront property west of clatskanie. she says there are dozens of boating incidents every year. little rowboats and canoes have a hard time getting out of the way of a big freighter.

all i've ever seen of the columbia (that i recall) is this barren banked stretch where 97 hits it. i turned right. that was in 1997.

You should check it out, it's mostly gorgeous. Pun intended.

for some reason, that reminded me: http://powells.com/ so this is an independant bookseller, or something? that the hippies can rally behind?

yes. its one of the larger indie bookshops left.

how is it indie? it has more purchase points than amazon.com.

independently owned. i dont know specifically what purchase points are, though I can take a guess. a classification meant to imply its not a regional or national operated chain. Borders, B&N, Folletts, Crown, Hastings, Walden these are all non-indie booksellers. Bookshop Santa Cruz or Logos is another good example...you know? locally owned and operated. It's actually a classification nate we use in publishing. Chain sales are a bit different than indie bookstore sales.

once again, i refer you to the (international) website: http://powells.com amazon.com has a similar website to sell books from. powells apparently has a store in the physical world, also? purchase points meaning points at which a purchase can be made. ie, storefront or website. i'm not trying to be argumentative, i guess. i just wonder, at what point does an indie store become non-indie? morally and ethically speaking, of course.

does opening a second store make you non-indie? there is a regional chain in the north bay (Copperfields) which is very good and has an indie feel. no international website, though. maybe it is the act of incorporating that makes the store evil capitalism? this all makes it very difficult to hate corporate america when the stores you know and love fulfill the american dream to the point where they, too, become corporate.

i am nodding with you. it is indeed a fine line. powells has 3 stores i believe in Portland. in this instance Powells does have more purchase points 3+1 where as Amazon has 1, or you could count that as millions if you consider every 'puter a point. One factor in determing this may lie in the fact that when I sell a book to Borders, I have to submit it to headquarters, wait for chain authorization in Ann Arbor MI and or the same in NYC for B&N. Where as indie stores, buying decisions are made locally and often instantly. With chains I get POs from corporate, marketing is coordinated through corporate....everything is through corporate. This is neccesary to maintain an infrastructure for such a large company...but ultimately, it makes their tap on local pulses that much more difficult to pay attention to. Try special ordering an out of stock title at Powells and at Borders and see which one turns around faster. Management of indie booskshops is more localized, which leads to the idea that an indie bookshop is more in touch with the local pulse. Copperfields does great for us, as far as sales goes. One mistake indie bookshops make is mixing politics with business. Gay and lesbian booshops have closed doors left and right in the last 5 years because of this. Holding on to something close and dear personally while letting business go to shit. In this instance, gays and lesbians found they could get the same shit at the chain, often for cheaper and more conveniently. gay booskhops were slow to realize this...and suffered. Technically the record store i worked at was a chain. Yet they felt like an indie store. They had stores in all the college towns in VA and NC. Ultimately though, they tried to compete with the chains and lost. Its safe to say Borders and the like pay my bills. (btw way how is BlueStockings doing mycelf? Good i hope!)