| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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fuck your right to bear arms. the hypocrisy of US policy on such matters makes me sick. here we are condeming third world countries for arming children with ak-47s, yet we won't advocate any real measures to curb such actions gun sales. This dumbass makes me sick: U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton. “The United States believes that the responsible use of firearms is a legitimate aspect of national life,” "National life"? What the fuck is that? hows taht for a half assed attempt to start an arguement? |
everyone knows that easy legal access to firearms reduces crime rates. there are 700,000 physicians in the US and 120,000 accidental deaths caused by phsician each year. There are 80,000,000 gun owners in the US and 1,500 accidental gun deaths per year. that's 0.171 deaths per physician. 0.0000188 deaths per gun owner. doctors are about 9000 times more dangerous than gun owners. guns don't kill people, doctors kill people. let's not let this get out of hand. we need legislation to end access to physicians by US citizens. |
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The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the rest of the world. Its akin to nuclear proliferation. We got it, but we dont want anyone else to have it. |
US dept of health and human services, patfuck. are you trying to claim that guns don't save lives? |
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/34/news-kuipers.shtml It's really getting to the point with the Bush Administration that you can't name a person who worked on behalf of the people instead on behalf of a corporation. It's enough to turn one Libertarian. |
(Where is the thread in which we first talked about this, a month or so ago? I can't remember what we said.) |
there is the Will. when you are not moving with the Will, you are moving against it. natural actions are what's important. good and evil are the same thing (thanks, heather.) there is no punishment scheme. moving against the Will is uncomfortable and your life will be shitty. moving with the Will is comfortable and your existance improves. it's like riding your bike in traffic. ride with traffic, and if you get hit it's more like just falling over. ride against traffic, you get hit you die. how about you, spider? what is your justice schema? |
that is a totally ridiculous and biased argument. |
we have huge borders. illegal gun ownership is going to happen, whatever we do to legal gun owners. and every state that has implemented a carry concealed law (allowing legal gun owners to conceal handguns legally) has seen a sharp decline in violent crime. that is fact. it counters any anti-gun argument i've ever heard. |
One of my coworkers is quite concervative, pro gun, anti abortion, etc. He used to try to discuss political issues with me all the time, even though I explicitly asked him not to, so I disuaded him by arguing him into the ground whenever he tried. (Imagine that!) Anyway, at dinner two nights ago we got on the subject of stem cell research, about the research team in Virginia that was manufacturing human embryos to produce stem cells. Of course he said this was baby killing, ending a human life, etc. Then the conversation migrated to guns. I guess he was on a roll or something. I was thinking of examples of why the proliferation of private gun ownership was detrimental to society, like children getting ahold of guns and accidentally shooting themselves, etc... I realized, though, that this fit in well as a rebuttal of his views on abortion. He thought that killing babies was wrong. How could he accept that a price of unrestricted gun ownership was the accidental death of a few hundred children? I didn't persue it, though. He had a migraine and I didn't want to get him all worked up. But I also found that I couldn't really disagree with him much about gun control. It's not that I think guns should be unrestricted, it's that I think they will be. They're just too much a part of the American psyche. A gun empowers an individual in a way almost no other piece of technology does, and individual empowerment is an essential part of the "American Dream." Owning a gun has always provided what I call the "I can kick your ass" factor, which is an integral part of the American psyche. Guns have helped along the "I can kick the frontier's ass" and "I can kick the government's ass" memes, which fit in with other American icons such as "We can kick any country's ass" and "I can kick my business competitor's ass." Basically, guns fit into a niche that's just too deep to dig out. It's a niche that is highly rebellious, so authoritarian methods for changing it are unlikely to do any good, and will probably just make things worse. So, what does this have to do with my argument with my coworker? Well, having this view on the attitude of gun owners can be instructive. You can't meet them head on, because that's exactly what they want: a confrontation, an opportunity to kick ass. The next time I argue with my coworker, if I'm in a particularly nasty mood, I'm going to try this line: First, start on abortion. Get him all riled up about kiling babies. Suggest that the presence of legal abortion may have helped along the precipitous reduction fo crimes perpetrated by 18-24 year olds in the early 90's. (roughly 18 years after Roe v. Wade...) While he's still disgusted by my "acceptable child killing" views, move on to gun control. Agree with him on gun control, but point out that accepting unrestricted guns means accepting that children will die due to unavoidable gun mismanagement. Show that he is willing to accept killing children to keep the freedoms he desires. Ask, "You accept that children die so you can freely use a gun. Why can't you accept that children die so women can freely use their bodies?" Christ, this has been a long post. |
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Abortion has nothing to do with gun control. LIBERAL FUCKOS! I have changed my mind about abortion, with your all's help. I now agree it should not be illegal to have an abortion. We went through that months ago. Gun control, though. Another issue alltogether. |
Sure it does. Both are related to ending human live. Everything has "something to do" with everything else. Just be creative and find the link. |
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Yet again, another clear, concise argument by Trace. Work at it and one day you might even get to the level of David Horowitz... |
any questions? |
But, you tread on dangerous ground making that argument. You have to have a license to practice medicine. Are you suggesting that you should have a license to own a gun? Physician's addresses are publicly available through the AMA directory. Should gun owner's addresses be collected in a public registry as well? But, that's all moot. Agatha blew the physician argument out of the water anyway. |
any questions?" Yeah. You gonna get in the cage, little girl, or are you going to make cutesy comments? :-) |
lives saved vs. lives taken Doctors: lives saved vs. lives taken you can't put a number on how many lives guns have saved, but you can damn well put a number on how many lives have been taken. with doctors, you can put a number on both. bottom line, a doctor is designed to save lives, guns are designed to take them I agree with agatha, the doctor argument is retarded and moot. you guys are all still failing to address the international aspect of this. what the fuck does the 2nd amendment have to do with the rest of the world? |
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Everybody have a nice ass ripping! See ya'll Monday. |
the 9th amendment is where it's at. cars: saved lives v. lives taken. your arguments are moot, patty. i have no problem with licenseing firearms. i have no problem with testing and licensing people to use firearms. this is what we do with cars, which kill many MANY more people. |
Im not sure the right to own a gun is fundamental anymore than the right to own a car. So im not buying the 9th Amendment argument either. |
gun shows don't do licencing. i think cars are a different matter, because people don't like to walk particularly much. they enjoy the freedom and speed of owning a vehicle. |
yes, and fast. Surely Trace can agree with that now. |
I also agree that there should be mandatory safetly classes and tests before getting a liscencse to own a fire arm (rifle, hand gun, whatever). And both, child birthing and fire arm liscense should require an intellegence test as well..... as for " "LIBERAL FUCKOS!" Yet again, another clear, concise argument by Trace. Work at it and one day you might even get to the level of David Horowitz..." I said "o shit, i gotta work on this one before I open my mouth." Now I am ready: As your "Token Fuckwit Republican Mouthpeice" I have to say, I am no longer republican. The line between them and the democrats has become to thin, if not non-existant. I think the NRA goes to far with their anti anti-gun legistlation. There has been legislation introduced that i agreed with (such as closing the gun show loop hole) that the NRA opposed. I am all for common sense safetly legislation. I am all for banning any automatic weapon. I think the general fire arm owner does not need any gun with a clip that holds more then 13 rounds. I think a 3 day waiting period is fair. I think charging parents who are negligent enough to leave a loaded pistol where a child can find it and kill their brother or best friend should be held accountable. I do not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, think fire arms should be outlawed. We have a right to protect our selves. My uncle has the right to hunt deer. I have the right to go to a shooting range and fire a glock nine to vent frustration. Oh, and uh, duh, guns do save lives. What the fuck was that? How many people on rampages were shot dead before they could kill more? How many times has a rapist been detered because a gun was pointed in their face? How many children were saved from being kidnapped because they were shot? No, I cannot point to statistics, but I guarentee you any numbers you find that say how many people guns have killed is false, propaganda. Misleading. I do not beleive any numbers put out by special interest groups or activists. I wonder though, if I was there when annie was going to hit her son in the head with what ever she used, would I have shot her? Maybe. Would I be a criminal? Yes. Why? The baby was medically fine after a week. Would I have been justified? I think so. Thus is the cunundrom of guns in the hands of citizens, and the abortion issue. As well as capital punishment? Does anyone have the right to decide who lives and who dies? But if we do not take the responsibility, then who is going to protect the victims? I promise you you do not want it all in the hands of authorities. They are human just like you and me. And they have agendas of their own |
the problem isn't guns, it's crazy fuckers (like the police, the militia wackos, the gang-bangers, the football players) who have no problem attacking other people that creates an environment where guns are necessary. guns are a symptom. humans are or, at best, contain the disease (dna). either be proactive about it or wait a few thousand generations for evolution to decide which trait will be more viable. i'll bet money that evolution will favor the gun owners, despite the inherent attrition their tools will cause. once again, it's hopeless. give up or start killing. do something or be done. |
that's my favorite line. |
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This is a fantastic line. I think I am, for once, in utter and complete agreement with dave. I also think that antigone's long argument about guns would work equally as well if you substitued "cars" for "guns." Maybe we should just go back to using crossbows. There aren't too many kids out there who could pick one up, much less shoot it. But an adult could still use a crossbow for home defense. |
but it's what you wrote that is funny. it should be illegal to be a victim. that would solve all our problems. |
Here we are in the 21st century, and look around you. I see career felons, victimizers and society leeches. the human race must advance |
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dart board! |
The above describes the ENTIRE human race. Time to EVOLVE. |
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I think we need more weird species of hominids, actually. |
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Sometimes mother nature needs a helping hand. Problem is, who the hell get's to decide who goes "removed from the gene pool?" I know I surely could not even consider such an action. Maybe some weird disease will run rampat through the prisons. Oh, and I read that the cloned sheep were starting to show cellular break down. DAMN |
i think your a sick misguided fuck and realize nate is making a tool out of you. "Oh, and uh, duh, guns do save lives. What the fuck was that? How many people on rampages were shot dead before they could kill more? How many times has a rapist been detered because a gun was pointed in their face? How many children were saved from being kidnapped because they were shot?" Trace this is all speculation, and yes...it could be said in certain instances guns saved more lives than it took, but its still speculation. bottom line trace. guns are designed to kill. its no more moronic than when the US justifys military action in the name of peace. |
This sounds like something a Satanist would say. |
when jesus went into the desert and was tempted by satan, what did satan promise him? what does jesus have now? of course he told the apostles he turned it all down. of course he did. |
and that natural actions part has nothing to do with me, for the record and thank you patrick. trace calling for genocide was completely twisting my head. the cloned sheep are showing cellular break down. oh yeah. |
Satanists often talk about how you're "supposed" to follow natural instinct all the time, and that Christianity and all other religious systems that tell you to control or disregard your instincts are totally misguided and wrong. That's why there is no sin, according to them - because what Christianity calls sins are just natural impulses and they should always be obeyed, right? When I ordered some music from a "Gothic" record label in college, I got a whole bunch of stuff about Satanism because some of the bands on a brother-label were Satanists. This is what their literature talked about. I wish I could give you a cite. |
generally when a cathy talks about satanists they're talking about big evil. but i should know better than to read you wrong. so respond to the temptation in the desert. i think that's a huge whole in christianity. |
You think I really advocate genocide? Jesus. Just trying to make it a little more interesting. The human race does need to start moving on again. Guns don't kill people. You kill people. How can you blame any in-animate object? There are not more murders today then there was a thousand years ago, percentage wise. We just get to see it immediately, then over and over and over again on Fox News or CNN. You deny them guns they will simply find another weapon. Yes yes, I know. Think of the children. I love my girls. I try so hard to protect them, but they always find a way to hurt them selves. I could tie pillows around them, and they would still get hurt You have boys and they want to play army? No gun in the house? Hey, I can use this butcher knife as a Survival Knife. Oh, let's chase eachother around the back yard with this pretend survival knife. Oh, that's going to end real pretty. |
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he has riches and power. christian organizations have been agents of evil for centuries. who would know what jesus agreed to other than jesus and the devil? and when he came back from his meeting with lucifer, of course he'll tell his people that he turned the devil down. duh. and they follow him like, well, sheep... |
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Sure, Jesus was mortal for the 33 years he was here, but if he did jump off the cliff and die, oh well. He's going to be ok. And tempting him with riches and power? He was supposed to be the Son of God, right? That whole story, to me, was like so much fluff added to the bible. |
any fool know's its slant. its called alternative media...as in, an alternative to the liberal puss washing LA Times or the other major media entitiy in a major city. It picks up where the Times and The Daily News leave off. "Guns don't kill people. You kill people. How can you blame any in-animate object?" Well god damn trace, with this logic, we could legalize coke, heroin and all the other drugs that are illegal. Don't blame poor old cocaine, its PEOPLE THAT DO DRUGS |
Anyway guns are tools, built by man to serve a porpose for man. To kill other men. |
Damn it, how often do they create new types of drugs? how many different types are there? These days, drugs have to be identified as controlled substance before they are made illegal. You make one thing illegal, then they create a new one. Drugs, however, do not server any useful purpose. Guns can. Teach respect and accountability and responsibility. Every thing boils down to that. Some drugs, such as marijuana, can have usefull properties as well, as a pain killer or what's the word I am looking for here, hallucegenic properties for the mentally disturbed any way.. Mind controlling? I hope none of the sarcasm drippped on you when you read that previous post |
he has riches and power. christian organizations have been agents of evil for centuries." For a moment I thought you were willing to be serious. |
PEOPLE TAKE DRUGS hmm, connection? |
kill die kill what's the difference anyway. by the way there is no difference. even if jesus didn't say yes, what about every single fucker after him? the cut and dry history of catholicism doesn't even hide it's dark sides very well let go of the people this has gone too far. i can't explain. fuck. |
you're just a square. |
they just sit there. nope, they can't even sit. they just are. metal and crap in a shape. you get some other shapes and put them in and hold it and pieces go flying and someone can die. also with metal and stuff in pointy shapes or just use your hands. that works. people suck. people don't suck. nothing. today i am an idiot. |
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Anyone that really wants to do anything can and will do it. Laws don't matter Opinions don't matter. Nothing realy matters, anyone can see...... Nothing really matters to me.... |
I tried mary jane a few times, and really inhaled and held it in (just like my balding, ever increasingly dumber ucle yelled at me to) when I was a teen, but it never had any affect on me. |
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You think Jesus accepted Lucifer's offer? That is interesting. I never concidered that. |
What do you do if you've got a headache and one remedy doesn't work? "Oh, well. I'll just keep smashing my head against the wall..." No! You find another remedy or take more of what you've got! Apply the same reasoning to ganga, please. See, that's the problem with most people's reasoning concerning illegal drugs: they don't apply it. |
Just a bit 'o' preemptive arguing. :-) |
Not that i am one. Not today, anyway. i think legalizing all drugs is the right way to go. I feel unqualified to discuss gun control. I’ve never seen a real gun. "Soon they’ll make bigger boards, with bigger nails, until they create a board with a nail in it big enough to destroy the whole world!!!" – Kang & Kodos |
I just got an email from my dad saying my grandfather had a stroke this morning and is in the hospital. He turned 91 last Wednesday, but he is (was?) very active and very lucid (he had such a good memory that I always suspected him of making things up - who can remember what someone wore to a party in 1938?). The stomach-clenching part of this is that my cousins Marc and Jimmy were raised by my grandfather after their own father bailed on them when they were babies. They, their mother (my aunt Maggie), and my grandfather still live in the same house. I hope they're okay. |
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my step-dad collected guns. he didnt hunt, but he loved collecting rare and strange guns as well as the usuals. i knew where is loaded 9mm was almost all the time, and I scare myself thinking of the stupid shit i did, showing it to my friends. i also owned a .22 rifle. my step-dad took me to the firing range, he'd grab an assortment of his guns, grab boxes of bullets and we'd head to the firing range. popping of a full clip from a 9mm in under 10 seconds is some exciting shit. totally empowering. i've also been skeet shooting...again, much fun..but after 2 rounds, using a 12 guage my arm was a piece of goo. but none of this changes my mind otherwise. |
We have a .22 pistol locked up with a pad lock in a foot locker, in the closet were my wife cannot even reach without a chair. The most dangerous thing about it right now is if the box were to fall on someone's head, it is made of metal. Of course, I wonder if my wife could reach a counter without a chair.... thank god she does not read this board, she hates it when I joke about her height |
i mean if you say anything about home protection, lets pre-empt it with the fact that should your home be invaded, you'd be dead before you got the lock off. now...tell me, why do have the gun? |
Australia has a strict gun policy. We legislated against hurting and killing people because that makes sense in a civilised society. When we banned private gun ownership, the government had a gun-buy-back policy and it cost every taxpayer $100.00 extra. It was the best money I ever spent. I used to have a gun. I don't now. |
not on sorabji, but earth. |
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say it CHUBB its fun (wow that was pez of me) |
(wow that was Patrick of me) I better go hide now. |
heh...how CAT of me |
(oh, how Nate of me) |
Patrick, good question. Erin's dad gave it to her last year, and we put it up there, and it has not been down yet. |
(how Trace of you) |
(how Cat of you) |
(now that's VERY Cat..smartass plus grammar nazi) |
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smart-ass. i suppose it really doesn't matter how you spell it, but certain slang terms shouldn't be one word. in my opinion. for example: i notice that a lot of people write "shithead" or "shithole." i don't, like, care for that because of the "th" thing. the thhhhhhhh sound. but i'm toasted on rum and bourbon and it don't matter none. and y'all stop spelling "no one" as "noone." it looks like the old english spelling of midday. "meet me before ye olde shoppe at noone, wench." |
that and the st crap. amongst |
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Wait... Did Dave even post to this thread, I'm too lazy to check. |
"GOD DAMNED ASS GOBLIN LIBERALS" Nate, although the Docters vs Guns / Lives saved argument is funny, it does have its holes. However it does put up a point. The point being there are so many other things that we take to be normal every day shit that kills WAY more then fucking guns do. The problem doesn't lie in the guns, it lies in the fucking people. Seriously, take for example those kids in Jersy who were picked up like 2 days ago with all those guns and shit. Buncha rich ass kids who were gonna go on a shooting spree. I know within a few weeks we'll all find out they played counter strike and they'll blame the whole mess on the fact that these kids could get guns and played video games. Give me a fucking break, I own guns, I play violent video games, and I haven't shot anyone as far as the athorities are concerned. It all comes down to parents man, I completly agree, children should be licenced man. Well wait, make that people should be licenced to have them. Some people just SHOULD NOT fuckin breed, and I belive that to the degree that I think quite a few people should be removed from the gene pool quarterly, one way or another. As for guns, gun laws don't prevent criminals from having guns, if they want one their gonna get one. They do however prevent law abiding citizens from getting them easily or in some cases at all. Which just leaves the gun toting criminals people that are all the easier to fuck in the ass and shoot. |
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I noticed the doctors statistics' thingy on the Break the Chain site... interesting |
Use your own logic: As for children, parenting laws don't prevent criminals from having kids, if they want one their gonna get one. They do however prevent law abiding citizens from getting them easily or in some cases at all. "The problem doesn't lie in the guns, it lies in the fucking people." So we should give those fucking people access to deadly weapons? Your arguments don't hold water. try again. |
I could not honestly say that I uphold the spirit of the constitution (all men are created equal) by stating that some should be legally denied reproductive rights. You cannot have it both ways. My integrity demands that I support reproductive rights of all persons, regardless of my personal opinion. |
WAS DRUNK... 2nd: Do you people not have a sense of humor any more? |
"Which just leaves the gun toting criminals people that are all the easier to fuck in the ass and shoot." FUCK IN THE ASS AND SHOOT...... seriously people, get with the god damn program. |
Milquetoast pussywad. |
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