I hope to God that Marks office is not in there.

Now they're evacuating the White House.See Bush run.OhMYGOD,they've bombed the Pentagon.

The bastards highjacked one of our 747's,and used it to hit the World Trade Center.

Where are you getting your news

Turn on your TV or radio. Its getting worse. Dan Rather is reporting.

car bomb now state dept apparently one tower has collapsed

awful 50,000 people worked in those towers

The second tower has collapsed. Go to http://www.bbc.com . CNN's website is too busy. Apparently all the streets are shut down in DC. I'm okay, of course. I hope Mark, Swine, Bell_Jar and my uncle are okay. This is unbelievable.

Thank God you're alright Spider.Pray Spider.This is the time for prayers.

You got it.

Now Camp David.Its time for retaliation.

i can see it all from here. complete outside even this far uptown., iw ork a few blocks from the empire state building, not sure how safe it is here. trying to find swine on YIM but he's not there.

Thank God you're alright Mark.Find whoever you can,and get out.

stay safe, mark. if you find swine, let me know.

too much panic outside. emergency vehicles everywhere. friend in brooklyn's house is suffocating from the smoke. i was just in the trade center last week. thinking how strong they were how they survived the last attacks. how mighty they are. i got sick watching the 2nd one collapse. can smell the msoke even up here

this is a fucking war

Yes.I wish Reagan was in office.He would not hesitate to retaliate.They've used our own people as bombs.The innocent people on that highjacked plane.

im being sent home stay safe people. though it may be emotional.... for once....i encourage Bush to unleash hell. i hear there is a jet hijacked en route to LA. unleash hell

4 definite highjacked planes confirmed.I hope none are coming your way Patrick. RETALATION

WE ARE AMERICA.WE ARE A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH.WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS.THE PEOPLE WHO ORCHESTRATED THIS,WILL PAY DEARLY.THIS WAS A BIG MISTAKE ON THEIR PART.WE WILL BAND TOGETHER AS A NATION.

Has Bush made any comments yet? It would seem that all I get is the news... shotty at best. Are you sure it was camp David? I heard near Penn, but nothing more.

not Camp David,but close.I think it was another highjacked aircraft.Nothing from Bush yet

Great. The unfuckingbelievable

Just heard a statement from Bush,before he left Flordia. "We'll find those responsible,and they will pay.Terrosism against America,will not stand."

The DEM liberation front for Palestine is taking credit, the Israeli gov thinks another could be involved. Shit.

This shows their fucking moronic intellect.Kamakaze actions.If they had a modocum of intelligence,they would realize,that by killing themselves,they won't be around to implement more terrosist activities.What fools,to follow such orders.

CNN News site was down, but now is coming up with new things. The Israeli gov is evacuating all embassies. I guess they're afraid of retaliation from the civilians in the areas they're located in.

The East Coast is in a state of shut down. CDC people are setting up teams for any possible biochem warfare. This can't be happening.

mark, please keep us updated regularly. i have very few resources for news at my house. can't even get an AM radio station. i'm relieved you're alright. be careful.

My s/o just called.A female employee from his company,was enroute here,from Boston,and they think she was on one of the highjacked flights. They have put PetroChemicals on alert,here.I have heard it before,that this would be a major target,as one of the main fuel suppliers.They could cripple our transportation,if they hit the gulf. I am going to volunteer with the Red Cross. They desperately need blood donars.Please donate if you can.There are donation centers being set up,across the nation.

i heard that a palestinian terrorist group claims responsibility. at least four planes were haijaked, a fifth suspected. all air transport is being stopped currently. it's like kamikaze. only they're attacking the government itself.

"another pearl harbor" says cbs news. snipers and security people keeping watch on top of buildings, all dc monuments closed, no flights taking place, the streets teeming with people. "the most audacious attack in the world."

i can't get out of here, the bridges and tunnels are all closed. everyone here is saying the cia ignored bin laden's threat to do this on this day. i still can't believe this. i worshipped the trade center. it's war. it really is war.

Yes,I heard that,too.Today is the anniversary when they signed that treaty between Isreal and the Arabs.How could they have ignored such a threat?

"what we do know is, bin laden, who's been hiding in afghanistan for some time... has been tied to the attack ten years ago." "there is such a thing as STATE sponsored terrorism."

Because "it couldn't happen to us." I feel so wierd and disconnected--I woke up this morning and J says "we're under attack." I say "right, whatever..." Jesus. Swine? Bell_Jar? Please be out there somewhere... Did any of you actually hear Bush's address? They broadcasted it on NPR here at around 9:10.

i wonder if it's over

"AMERICA UNDER ATTACK World Trade Centers collapse after planes hit, 10,000 emergency workers head to scene Plane hits Pentagon, part of the Pentagon collapses American, United both confirm losing two planes each Bush calls trade center crashes terrorist act Federal buildings, United Nations evacuated FAA grounds all U.S. flights, sends trans-Atlantic flights to Canada Israel evacuates embassies Non-essential NATO employees asked to leave Brussels HQ TALIBAN (what's up with that?) issues statement to tell U.S. 'Afghanistan feels your pain'"

I just talked with my friend Opie who was in the WTC when it got hit. He's OK. He got off Manhattan by taking a ferry, which are all giving free rides. It's worth a shot, Mark.

I haven't been able to get bell_jar on the phone yet. She works only a few blocks from the WTC.

I'm afraid it will be a very long time before it is really over.

"• All Disney parks in Orlando, Florida, and Disneyland in Anaheim, California have been closed." was on cnn. so this is how far capitalism has gone. the entire world needs to know that dineyland is closed for the day. of all the horrible things, i just think this is a boneheded comment to be made by one of the most respected news companies in the country, the world.

i just went outside and got pictures of the empire state building in case it goes next.

The Lieutinent Govenor of Lousiana just made a statement that everything is "secure here". "We need to have faith in God,and our country". FUCK,FUCK FUCK.The president is fucking HERE,in Lousiana!

http://www.cnn.com stock market closed, oil prices rise three percent. stock market in london is plummettng. "w" is in louisiana.

isn't loisiana supposed to be the most corrupted state in the union?

Yes,it is.But it is also "Ground Zero",in relation to the oilfield.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/11/trade.centre.reaction/ the schools are open.

i don't quite understand, cz.

If the gulf is crippled,ie,the oil producing gulf,the US will be without its main supply of fuel.Unless of course,we get it from the Mideast. But I still don't understand why the president came here.

bin laden is on cnn right now. can't understand what the translators are saying

whoops.that's not bin laden. never mind. still can't understand what anyone's saying

They barely hit the pentagon, they tried for Camp David. I'm positive of the fact that when they tried for the pentagon they would have hit the big 5 sided monstrosity but there are guys with Stinger missles on the roof. Apparently it was shot twice, but it wasn't enough to stop it from slamming into the side. As for the white house because that was my first though, they have evacuated the white house, and there are SAM batteries on the front lawn. They are refusing to release the location of Pres. Bush, his wife, and Vice Pres. Cheney. All Federal Buildings in the State of Montana have been evacuated, all surrounding areas around them have been as well. Great Falls, Bozeman, and Billings are on alert. As well Malstrom Air Force Base has F-15's on stand by fully loaded. Camp David now has SAM batteries, up and operational. THIS IS FUCKING WAR. Question: Is it just me, or is this the fastest way to make sure that your people oblitorated off the face of the planet? Mark, glad to hear your ok, get some distance between you and the Empire man, don't think they'll get it too, but we can't be sure. Bell_Jar, Swine, hope you guys are ok too, get far fast, and let us know that your ok when you can. War has commenced people, the powers that be are going to bring fire and hellstorm down upon those who have commited this act.

my friend JB in rockville, md, works in DC. the plane that hit the pentagon flew close to his ovvice and knocked the chimney off his building. eight F-16's just buzzed his building. his sister works on wall street. hawaii is in lockdown. i don't think it's over. hey mark, can you post some photos?

horrible, such a mess, been watching since half an hour after it happened, on BBC1 everyone is in a state of shock, even here in the UK, london's stock exchange has been evacuated, so has most of The City http://news.bbc.co.uk/

I heard there were still several commercial planes headed west -- is that true? where are they? I guess they'd be hit before they could hit anything.

i did post photos

i don't know. i've been printing out information as fast as i can find it and watching cbs news since i woke up. bush is speaking. what's going on? technology is failing. "freedom itself was attacked by a faceless coward this morning, and freedom will be defended." i have an idea, which won't help much militiawise, but may well provide hope for america.

the Pope has condemned the attack and wished those victims 'eternal rest' why no news on State dept car bomb? BBC's David loyn says as many as 20,000 could have been in WTC at the time

The world is now in Chaos... Here's where it gets interesting kids, the WTC is a NATO run building. Guess who else gets to now be involved in this. Shit has hiteth the fan.

a friend in d.c. works in the pentagon, but her husband told me she made it out ok.

I know! Tony Blair spoke of his support for 'W'in the matters of wiping out whoever did these attacks But i dont want there to be a world war!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm glad that npr -- unlike cbs and abc -- is not saying that u.s. intelligence didn't know anything about it. they're saying that u.s. intelligence issued no general warning, which is entirely different from saying that they have any idea something would happen.

The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts President Bush

Bush said shit.We deserve to hear more.Fuck.

anyone who can, please pass this information on to everyone and participate. it is preferable if your are near a river, if not, a lake will do. make a small boat out of a piece of wood, and decorate it with flowers and leaves, with a tea candle in the middle. write down your hopes and wishes for the future on a small piece of paper and tuck it underneath the candle. as soon as you can after dark, take the boat to the nearest body of water, light the wick and set it loose. if we can get tons of people to do this, it can act as a symbol of hope for everyone possibly invovled.

the BBC said they sent out a 'global warning' to US citizens i.e a warning to those living outside of the US to be careful and watch out

I am afraid of this very much my boy friend is old enuf to get put in the army if they want him I will not let him go tho if he gets in I guess theres not a thing I can do tho I have allready ofered to hide him away. Do you think they will bring back the draft. And I will not go my own self some day cause my family is pacifist. People say these folks must be attackd but that means our country will lose even more lifes if we should send an army. I am glad I am in the country just now instead of in the big city the city has cool shit but is also first to get attack I am so sorry for all those people. There may not be much to do here and this may be a 1 horse town but New York will always get attack befoare Arkansas will.

the plane that crashed outside of Pittsburgh (they said just now) was thought to have been on its way to Washington

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1537000/1537499.stm check out the links to the right of the photos i.e. possible culprits and could it have been prevented

all those poor people jumping to their deaths, and those crushed when they came down, all the rescue workers. how could anyone do such a thing?

I'm glad you're okay Mark. I couldn't remember how close your office was to the Trade Centers. I prayed for the first time today. Really prayed. Not to god. Just to everyone.

people were seen jumping out of the world trade center towers. jumping out.

Today is 9-11.... I only fear what comes next.

i know, imagine having the choice: Jump to your death, and perhaps by some miracle survive, or wait in the HOPE of being rescued all the time your lungs filling with smoke with the worry of either buning to death, or dying of suffocation, or in the case of many, being crushed to death poor, poor people i dont think the world will ever forget this day i know i wont

LA is shut down. cyst, FAA reported all planes are accounted for an on the ground....so they say. I dont recall what the body count was in PEarl HArbor....12-14k??? IF this death toll nears anywhere near that, and they can find even a plausible link to bin Laden, I suspect a full scale invasion of Afghanistan if the Taliban gets in the way, finsih the job Russia failed to do o20 years ago. Im thinking its over for now. For now. The entire country is on lock down. What im particularly concerned about are the economic implications. My thoughts are with all of the NYC-sorabji folk. I wish swine would check in, bell jar.....Mark...get out if you can. Hal...the damage to the Pentagon was pretty damn extensive, it broke through all five layers and nearly got into the center. I havent heard about the dudes on the roof with SAMs, I suppose Im not surprised. What is particularly an outrage is that the lax security at our aiports allowed this. Airport security should have been airtight a decade ago, with all the hijackings and bombings in the 80s. But you go to the airport now, you see these lackey slackjawwed yokles, barely out of highschool with some bogus uniform and a plastic badge, who obarely raise an eyebrow when you pass. I hope this is THE wake up call. Im willing to WAIT at airports for 2 hours or more to make sure no one gets on our planes with intentions to bomb or hijack it. Its tremendous that all of the planes were bound for the west coast....i.e. LOADED with fuel. I do consider this an act of war. And I do plan on seeing about donating my alcohol, pot laced blood.

I hope we hear from Swine and Bell_Jar,and doesn't PJboy work in Washington? Jimbo check in.It was Bin Laden behind it,he threatened 3 weeks ago to do something. I fear more acts of terrorism. This is the worst thing I have ever seen in my life.A nightmare that turned real.

thanks, patrick. I hadn't seen any reports about all commercial planes being accounted for. I think the jerusalem post is reporting that some palestinian group has claimed responsibility. drudge report has posted a photo and story about street celebrations in lebanon.

The plan that got the Pentagon did get it I won't deny that, but it didn't hit square on. It was directed off course by Stinger missiles. There just weren't enough of them to stop it. Its sad that we have to shoot our own planes out of the air to stop such a tradgedy, and you are most definatly correct J this is a nightmare. I'm type 0- and I'm leaving in 30 minutes to give as much of it as they will take. As for the rest of you, I'm going to post my email address, if you haven't recived the email from me it means that I don't have you archived. I'll post my email address, mail me with yours. And no fear this is not one of those chain mail bullshit letters, I fucking hate those people. This is an article I've written for a friend of mine who works at a local paper.

Hal, where did you hear about the Stinger's being fired at the pentagon bound plane? I can't find that anywhere.

i heard on the radio there is still one united airlines flight unaccounted for at this time.

have you seen any web stories about that? you'd think the media would consider that important news, even if they're not being told where it is.

For a couple years now its been public knowledge that on both the Whitehouse, and the Pentagon as well as a few other Goverment buildings, there are anit-air capabilites. This knowledge was let out when the plane tried to hit the white house a few years back. I make the conjucture that they fired upon the plane due to the fact they are there, 2 stinger missiles would have little effect on taking a 747 from the air and its trajectory. I am making speculation, but it would explain a few things.

there may be one more flight that has been haijacked. i just got the newspaper from my mailbox, and there was to have been a truce talk between israel and palestine today. i'm wondering if it did end up happening. it is a dark hour. i'm not a big fan of the government, but such an attack on the people is horrible so i'm trying to get people to do small acts to show their support. the first time i saw the film of people jumping out the windows i nearly threw up. amoung those who leaped included a man and woman holding hands. people jumped from as high as the 80th floor.

AMERICA CANNOT AFFORD TO NOT RETALIATE TO THIS. I WAS AT WORK (WHITEMAN AFB) WHEN THE SHIT HIT THE FAN. THE WORSTE THING ABOUT THIS IS THE REACTION THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE TOWARDS IT'S OWN CITIZENS. CAR BOMBS, LETTER BOMBS, EVRYTHING. I PREDICT YOU WILL SEE A LOT MORE TO COME FROM THE TERRORISTS. A LOT OF THEM ARE LIVING HERE IN THE STATES NOW, AND HAVE BEEN FOR SEVERAL YEARS. I SAW SECURITY FORCES WALKING UP AND DOWN THE STREETS OF THE AIR FORCE BASE WITH M-16'S IN COMBAT GEAR, AND HUMM-VEE'S PATROLING THE STREETS. YOU EVER SEE THE SEIGE? IT'S COMEING, IF THIS DOES NOT END NOW.

trace, calm down. i understand how you feel, but it's not just a matter for the united states. do you actually know what's happening?

Pez, you know what? I really do not give a shit about the other countries right now. I live in America, and it is America that matters. Because it is my country. I live here. My fellow American's were killed. The Pentagon for Christ's Sake! Right now I don't care about Isreal, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Etc.

Yeah they did get the WTC which is NATO controlled, this is international man. Although I understand what you mean, Malstrom Air Force Base In Great Falls Montana, is under alert. They have F-15's sitting on the runway fuled and armed... There will be no Martial Law over this, at least not everywhere, We will not all into recession, this will go to war.

war. hrmpht. I really hope we hear from our New Yorkers. *worried aura*

We've got ole' George W. man. He's just like his father, there will be extensive military action because of this.

Fuck, fuck, fuck. I just spoke to Mark, he's going to walk home. My beautiful boy in the middle of all that. This is fucking unbelievable.

He'll be fine, he's a tough cookie, he puts up with all of us doesn't he? I'm worried about Swine, and Bell_Jar, I know Swine worked somewhere near there. I've relayed all Sorabji related news on this incident to Nate, and Heather who are somewhere in Missouri right now. And in other news:- There were reports of gunfire in celebration of the attacks in Lebanaon, home to some 360,000 Palestinian regugees. Question: Are these people, just asking for something bad to happen?

the refugees would probably tell you that something bad has already happened to them. I've seen nothing about whether or not any commercial flights may be unaccounted for on npr or on cnn.com or msnbc.com or AP or anywhere else. it's like no one is even asking the question. where did you hear/see those reports, sarah and pez?

life in lebanon is so fucked-up...something bad has been happening to people there for what's going on three generations... this seems like it was along time coming, some strike against the u.s....vile, horrible, nauseating...unbelievable. i've been waiting all day for news of my cousin jennifer who worked at the wtc..... i've been sick to my stomach all day....

I can't believe this. It's like a fucking movie. Where the hell is the director to call "cut!"?

fuck i am so glad you guys are posting mum woke me up this morning and told me to flick on the news. what a freakin site. my first thoughts were for you guys... wondering if you were all okay... it seems real corny as i am a million miles away, but i was worried

sight. fuck

I'm just watching the footage now and every time they show the towers collapsing, my heart goes with them. My hands are shaking. But I just spoke to someone in NYC and they say it's safe for Mark to walk home...that everyone is flooding across the bridges out of Manhattan on foot. Please God that's true. Has anyone heard from Swine or Dougie yet?

I was watching it all this morning, and when the first building collapsed I thought I'd lost my best friend. I was in shock, and couldn't really feel anything. It's just now hitting me, even though I know he's safe. My hands are shaking too.

Or Bell_Jar... I'm worried about all 3 of them. I need to talk to TBone and see if he still has Bell_Jar's #, try and call or something. And I Think he's talked to swine before too.

I'm still trying to reach bell_jar on the phone. It's always busy.

There are all sorts of crisis counseling things going on here. We're nowhere near that part of the country but it seems like there isn't a place in America that's been unaffected. I'm pissed. I want justice. Now.

I'm glad Opie is OK, Greg. Let's just hope Bell Jar is too. Let us know as soon as you hear. America has done so much for world peace and you've just paid such a terrible price for that. I'm so sorry.

Some of the phone lines are out Hal,but please keep trying.

I had no prob getting through to Mark on a 212 number. Plus he was obviously on line.

"The Secret Service instituted security checks on the streets near the White House, placed snipers atop nearby buildings, and a helicopter gunship was seen, at points, patrolling the airspace between the White House and Pentagon -- an area that includes Washington's National Mall." CNN News site. They aren't taking any chances.

I just looked at a map of where Mark has to walk...it's such a long way. Blocks and blocks. All those poor people, walking home in shock.

Or Bell_Jar... I'm worried about all 3 of them. I need to talk to TBone and see if he still has Bell_Jar's #, try and call or something. And I Think he's talked to swine before too.

Talked to Bell_Jar... She's fine, I only got 2.5 minutes of time because of my shitty phone card. But I did talk to her, and she's fine... Now to find out about Swine, and Dougie.

they are currently banning cell phone use on the east coast, so it might be hard to get ahold of some people. there is one plane still out there. it was headed for l.a., but made a sharp turn east. i'm not sure where it was from or from what company, but that's all i know at the moment. i've been listening to the radio and watching tv nearly nonstop since just before 9 am pst. at least 100 people have been injured or killed from the pentagon fire. all the malls are closed. all evening school activities have been canceled. govenor kitzhaber isn't too worried because we don't have much to bomb here in oregon, but i hope (portland police chief) kroker doesn't see it as an excuse to involve racial profiling more than he already does. it's not like pearl harbor. too well planned. this is almost like a terrestrial war of the worlds.

So glad to hear Bell Jar is OK. Nothing could hurt Swine. They wouldn't fucking dare. And I think Dougie works at Long Island City.

This settles it. You're all coming down here where I can keep you safe.

can't. all airports closed.

We'll split it up, every one close to Cat go there, and the rest come to Missoula, the Switzerland of the United States (Surrounded by mountains on all sides.)

we can't just drop everything and run at one attack. there aren't many people who can take my place at work.

Still no word from Swine or Dougie?Cat,I'm sure Mark will get home okay.But I'm sure he is in shock.What a Godawful thing to have to witness.I'm sorry you had to be there,and go through that.This is just unbelieavable.I agree with Trace,that there are terorists amongst us.They couldn't have highjacked our airlines,if they weren't HERE. I was very impressed with the British Prime Ministers statement.This was not an attack against America,but an attack against freedom. I am somewhat ashamed to say that I have blood in my eye.I want retaliation.I want it badly.

we must find who it is exactly, first. if it is indeed a group of palestinians, it would mean an oil shortage. if it is the taliban, something else may be at stake. wait... they're taking about afghanistan. internal termoil, supposedly.

the plane that hit the pentagon was circling for a while before it crashed. the hijackers weilded boxcutters. amoung the first actions once the air clears is a search for the black boxes from the world trade center crashes. one woman called her husband on her cell phone from the pentagon plane with the above information. the first name i've heard in the long list of inevitable casualties. barbara olsen, 1955-2001.

another building has just come down. 40 stories.

It's so horrible... The whole world will be a more fucked up place because of this. In addition, I'm afraid of what sorts of things will now be slid through congress. * A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither. --Thomas Jefferson Ben Franklin said the same thing for safety and freedom. Retaliation may certainly be justified. But let's just hope that the US government doesn't lock down on it's own citizens for their own safety. MSNBC at one point mentioned how like the Soviet Union it was to see fighter jets in the air over a city. I'm afraid of what people will do out of fear. My heart goes out to all people affected by this trajedy. I guess that's everyone. I'm scared.

this is JUST like Pearl Harbor. PH was well coordinated, as was this. Thte only difference is they hit military targets, thsi time they hit capitalist and military targets. I have not heard one report of ANY planes still in the air. The one you are referring to pez, that made a sharp turn around, ended up in a field in PA. That one took off from Newark, got to Ohio and did a U-turn. Everything I have heard is that not a single commercial airliner is in the air over the US, all international incoming flights were diverted to Canada and Mexico. All domestic flights were held up or forced to land. My friends who live in Brooklyn had to walk 6 hours from Manhattan home. 6 hours across the bridge!!! My pal is sitting on his roof in brooklyn watching. he said he started drinking at 10am. I dont blame him. There were no 747s crashing anywhere. They were 757 and 767s. Much smaller, but still large transcontinental aircraft. Hal have you seen the gash in the Pentagon? The SAMs were useless against a fully loaded 757 or 767 headed straight for it. Considering all the pictures ive seen today....the plane made a direct hit on the Pentagon. For all intents and purposes, it was successful. Now i see missles are falling in Afghanistan.They dont know for fact if they are US missles or missles from the current insurgency...but that fact that the insurgency is way way out of Kabul, its most likely they are US missles...hitting what they believe is a an Ammo facility. But this is not confirmed. Life in n Lebanon is not as fucked as you might think since the Shah (is that his name?) died and his kinder, more progressive son took over. In fact i was just reading a semi-favorable report in Wallpaper about Damascus. Its not as bad as it used to be. The cheering Palestians.....fuck em....they have nothing to loose, of course they are going to cheer, they have been under attack for years. Of course they are going to cheer. They view us as an Israeli cohort, and in many ways we are. Im not sure where you are coming from Trace. Fuck spending all this time to figure out WHO did this. We know damn well who did it. Look what happened to the Lockerbie trials. Took 10 years for an inkling of justice. This goes beyond our internal criminal justice proceedings....this is an act of military aggression, going beyond criminal activity. Each one of those planes was a giant bomb. I say carpet fucking bomb Afghanistan. Unload holy hot fuck......HOLY HOT FUCK! Never in my 26 years have I ever felt so retaliatory towards an act of aggression against the US.

and as far as this igniting world war 3??? fuckit..who are we up against? Russia and China have been awfully quiet and if anything wouldnt touch any of this with a 10ft pole. If anythign Russia would offer a tacit nod of approval if we attacked Afghanistan. China isnt looking to start any shit, they dont want to loose their Olympic bid. We have two fo the msot powerful Arab nations, if not behind us, at LEAST in a neutral position...them being Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I dont think this could ingite a 3rd world war no one wants to get in the mix....if they have any brains, they will realize the last time we were attacked in such a horrific way.....2 atomics were dropped on said nation.

i love this: Outgoing Conservative leader William Hague, comparing the attacks to the Second World War strike on Pearl Harbor, said: "Whoever has committed these atrocities has committed a monstrous act of war against the civilised world. "Britain must, and I am sure will, stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the United States of America and peaceful nations across the world in deploying every possible resource to bring to justice the people responsible, and make sure terrorism never prevails." i love the hawkish nobility of the Brits.

Patrick, I full out agree. Like I said 2 stinger missles isn't going to stop a plane barrling for where its going, all its going to do is make the plane a ball of fire and metal before it hits. This shit is war, and I agree, fuck'em and fuck'em hard. This is EXACTLY like Pearl Harbor, I think I already sent you the article I wrote up on this event.

This is worse then Pearl Harbor. I can tell you with some authority that there are more military aircraft flying "security patrols". We must retaliate. And not in the courts, but with the military. We must not become like Isreal/Palestine Beruit, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran. We must show that we will not tolerate such acts here in the US.

I think we should retaliate quickly and forcefully.Show that we will not tolerate this type of behavior.Somewhere,there are people who know who orchestrated this.They will sing,if enough pressure is applied.Time to tighten the screws. I've been trying to get ahold of Jim.

I've heard from Jim,he's okay.Thank God.

Mark's home. Yay. Breathing shall now recommence.

i just wanted to check in and let you all know that i'm ok. so. . .i'm ok. ok?

thanks dave. if anyone hears from swine, please post it here so we know he's ok. i'm starting to worry.

What good would it do to make a hasty retaliation? I think it would make more sense to try and track down the culprits and bring them to justice...bombing thousands more innocent civilians won't solve anything. Certainly invading afghanistan won't do much good... Can you believe Bush quoted psalm 23?

can you believe he said absolutely nothing of value at all whatsoever? i sure can. how can a president words completely lack eloquence or memorability after something like this?

So everyone has sort of checked in except swine. fuck... so weird, being this... concerned. Shock. Making mental lists of all my friends over there, trying to get hold of all of them at once. Been trying not to really think about it all day. Fuck bush. he's useless. But I don't like the idea of reprisal. We're just looking for someone to kill? fuck. I dunno. waiting for more reports.

Very easily. And I will always remember: "some very bad people attacked our nation, and we will get those bad people." Who on earth is writing his speeches?

I don't find it surprising that Bush said nothing of signifigance.It was tacky that he quoted psalm 23.Really tacky. And I think quick retalation is in order.And I don't mean random bombing of innocent people.Don't kid yourselfs,our government knows who and where to find some collabarators.Put the screws on them.Hard screws.Perhaps they are already doing this.I'm wondering if there aren't vidio tapes of those boarding those flights?I don't know if airports vidiotape passengers or not.But I am quite confident in saying,that when these terroists were asked,before boarding their flights,if their baggage had been out of their site,or possession,they all answered,"NO".

If our government knows where to find people, why was Osama Bin Laden at large.... I totally agree that the people directly responsible for this do need to be apprehended. But, I think that the way that Bush is talking, we're just going to go bomb some country that might be harbouring them. We should be negotiating, not bombing, for the culprits, no?

ahh the old 'you killed our innocent people, now we're gonna kill yours approach'. nice. that man has no animation. jules, drew and i were watching as he gave that speech, and we all thought it was awful. we couldnt work out if he was shell-shocked, a clever puppet, or has no emotion whatsoever.

Hal, where did you get your info about the SAMs? I've heard nothing at all about that sort of thing from neither the local DC coverage nor the national news. I gotta go to work tomorrow. Dag.

He kept tilting his head to the left like he had an ear infection when he spoke in Louisiana. I thought that was rather odd. He said something along the lines of "any country harbouring terrorists is an enemy." Pooh.

I would think that Bin Laden wouldn't fall into that catagory of "some people",otherwise he would have been apprehended a long time ago.But,surely,our government,must have some idea of who some of his cohorts,or at least,where some of the cohorts families are located.Start there.Somewhere,someone knows details.I just don't think we should lollygag around.We probably aren't. I would hope that no one is in favor of bombing innocent people. Too bad that Bin Laden doesn't have an email addy. I have a message I would like to send him.

he could have at least cussed a bit.

the clip from the school with the girl on his left - when he asks for a moment of silence - she's looking round like 'oh do i bow my head now' and checking out everyone is... made me giggle, but then the station flicked back to the building . . . i wish i could help.

they just reported that someone called home on a cellphone,and that they are alive and trapped with 2 policemen in the WTC.and gave his location

Well, according to President Bush, you can help us by comdemning this, er, cowardly act. Maybe we can all stop lollygagging. I'm just confused--Osama Bin Laden threatened the US with an "unprecedented attack," and we didn't do anything about it. I suppose there wasn't anything we could have done. I know this is kind of out of context, but I think it's a good thing to read, so I'm posting it.

drew just yelled that out Czarina - he's watching in the lounge, while i am online. i went to the mall with jules this morning - she had to pay her mum's bills (shes in hospital), the mall was dead - the only place people were was in front of the tv in the appliance stores - watching the coverage.

Well,perhaps if he'd been more precise with the timing and location and MO,we would have been more prepared. I think we're all as shocked as you,that this threat wasn't taken seriously.

Innocent? They were dancing in the streets and laughing and clapping their hands. Give me a break. Any country that harbors a terrorist that attacked american soil IS an enemy. Do you not go to jail for aiding and abetting a criminal? By protecting the terrorist, you preserve his ability to strike again. Oh, and sorry Bush does not have the "charisma" you desire when he speaks. I am sure he had a lot more on his mind today then looking pretty for the camera, for shit's sake. KILL THEM ALL!!!

Ah, yes, the perfect solution. Let's strike out for freedom and deomcracy.

Maybe we should start with the 7-11 employee's. It isn't right to just start killing. We need to find the target,then move swiftly,with no mercy.Like he did.

Trace, I understand that you are upset, but killing people in retaliation is not the answer. Finding who is responsible calmly and logically is. Then you can torture and maim them as much as you want. Bush looked fine for the camera - it was his lack of emotion I wondered about.

Trace, I think we've had quite enough hate for one day, don't you? We have the rest of our lives to seek answers and revenge.

his job is to look pretty for the camera. you actually think he's personally drafting up plans of any kind? no way, he's looking around wondering just what the fuck to do. he has no idea what to do. about anything. ever wonder why he NEVER answers reporters questions about ANYTHING? because, outside of the content of his vaguely worded prepared speeches, he has no idea what's going on. shit, gore would have been all over this.

Well put,Moonit!

Does anyone know if Clinton has been asked to comment?

thanks. it started out Trace, you fucking asshole, but I think I managed to reword it nicely. prehaps he needs a JUMBO RUM AND COKE and a bit of a lie down. so everyone present and accounted for except Swine?

Haven't heard drew yelling yet Rhi. Haven't seen anything either.

He's deep in intellectualization,with Monica,I presume.

shit, i wonder how the 'merican's at work are taking it... our big owner and his partner (ceo) and the website man. shit.

i walked about 5 miles home. there were almost no cars in manhattan, and when there were they looked like fbi or secret service entourages. i might have taken 300 pictures or more. i started getting scared about what's changed today. is this war? who is the enemy? is it us? what am i going to do to help? the repeated video of the planes smashing into the towers is making me nauseous. the news networks have nothing else to say anyway, but every time i see that video it sears through my mind. when the planes went in my first thought was that these were mighty towers, they would be hard to fix up but they would hold up. i just absolutely adored those towers. they were such a source of pride, and i really loved them. you saw them and you thought new york city. and when i think new york city i think the greatest city on earth. now they're just gone, and it feels like my front teeth are gone. walking up 5th and madison i used to look downtown and see them, like punctuation to an aimless day wandering around new york, but tonight it was just a huge storm of smoke. aircraft carriers and warships are circling manhattan. bush's speech was perfunctory, but i don't envy anyone in his position right now. at first i thought i was not going to be able to handle this. i completely lost it when the 2nd tower went down. but the more the networks repeated the footage the angrier i got, the more i just thought fuck you whoever did this. cbs radio is reporting that 2 people in new jersey were just arrested for carrying explosives destined for the george washington bridge. i used to live in an apartment 20 or 30 yards from the GWB. this was the worst thing i have ever seen. i saw the space shuttle challenger blow up in the sky and until now that was the worst thing, but this makes that look quaint. i want to hear back from swine but i don't want to freak out about it.

That could be exhaustion. I saw it in Cheney and Rumspheild as well. ladin has long been a problem. And did u.s.citizens dance in the street when someone walked into a pizza parlor and blow it up? that is repulsive, totally repulsive. The world is going to watch us to see what we are going to do. I do not advocate the killing of innocents. But, if Palestine is harboring him, then palestine should pay for doing so

Clinton will not comment because he does not have his speach writers anymore. And no, chilling out is not the answer. Diplomacy, negotiations, yack yack yack. It is my firm belief that just that type of pansy wansy shit got us where we are today. You don't handle these things with silk gloves. You do so with an iron fist. In my opinion, America has 2 ways out of this. Lengthy debates and inquiries and trials, or figure how who did this, and fast, and then demand they are turned over to the US (if they do not already live here), or face the Military, showing the world we do not take the killing of 10,000+ americans lightly, or we can continue to show ourselves to be spineless whimps with countless inquiries and investigations, while holding our own citizens hostage. But, the bad part is this: They are already suicidal, so obviously life has no meaning to them, so how can threat of death deter them? It will not. That is why we need to threaten the countries that harbor these freaks. And, Pez is correct. This is not just a US problem. Somehow we have been lucky enough to avoid this in the past. But now we have a responsibility to ensure this does not happen to other countries as well. We also really need to find out HOW they were able to hijack 4 planes at once, from four different airports. Now we also have the responsibility of ensuring that more terrorists that are obviously in the US do not board a plane here in the states with the intent of flying to another country and causeing a plane to crash into one of their buildings. One thing I do know. Tommorrow the US will have changed, if not the world. It will never be the same. No matter if you kill the culprit or an innocent. The world will never be the same again

So who's the bad guy, Palestine or Afghanistan, or both, or what? I hope that this doesn't turn into an excuse to nuke palestine. I have a severe paranoid fear that somewhere, a bunch of four-star generals are sitting around a map of the world going "finally! an excuse! who do we get first?" maybe i will go lie down for a bit.

are you the tom that wants to be a writer?

I am glad folks we know are okay - where's Swine? There is some safety in the Ozark Mountains but then there's the meth heads, the militant whites, and the klansmen. I dreamt bad dreams last night and shrugged them off until I saw the footage that the media allowed us to see. What is it that we are not being told? It is a good time to reassess; to carefully consider options before speaking or acting; to pray; to practice gratitude; to grieve such loss as the world has not seen. Old nightmares. Now reality. Take care everyone.

the afghanistan missiles: an anti-taliban leader was assassinated last week in a terrorist action in northern afghanistan. his followers are the ones bombing the capital city. the cia are nearly positive it was bin laden. whether he is supported by the taliban or no, he is currently somewhere in afghanistan, according to my sources. i heard that libya also offered condolences to the grand ol' us of a. they're all scared that we'll think they're the shit. what if it's an inside job? i mean, the whole bombing thing could be to throw us off, a sting operation to get at someone else.

yay, mark. i don't want to freak out either, but where is swine???

i still haven't been able to contact two friends. i'm frantic. i just want to fucking kill whoever did this. i keep thinking about the people who are finding out that their loved ones are dead because they haven't shown up for dinner.

you know, these fucking prick bastards were so pissed off that their 1993 attempt didn't work that they were bound and determined to level those buildings. they are nothing but fucking soul-less cock suckers who WILL burn in hell. i hope they feel the torture of those who died for all eternity.

calm down. they can't hear you say "cock-sucker". i understand you're upset, but right now there's not much that can be done but to continue life as we know it. the world is not at an end, tomorrow the sun'll come up and it will be your standard day, with a few small exceptions. most of us are not in the position to get revenge against whoever did this. most of us are awake, waiting for news. who's alive or dead? who committed this terrible act? countless other questions. but we're alive, and as long as this remains the truth, we're lucky.

Bingo-- I suppose. whyfore? hrm. I feel like I ought to have all these platitudes about how it will be okay... I don't feel it though. It hit me, really, as much as it can, I think, a few hours ago, and I almost vomited. think of all the people you might have known. Now I'm afraid I'm beating a dead horse. all I've been thinking since then is "no man is an island." heh. there's a platitude for you. sigh. Been trying to call Bell_jar all day; I know she's already been reported as still alive, but.. yeah. Everything seems very far away. Goodnight. Hope everyone gets some sort of rest.

When Swine finally reports in, will someone please kick his butt for me? And I want my mother back. Fucknozzle.

fucknozzle?

Hal, please don't offer your speculations in sentances beginning with "Apparently, ...". No news articles I've read say anything about the plane being shot twice. The last thing people need right now in unsubstatiated conjecture presented as fact. It's known as rumors. Also, it makes me ill to hear so many people screaming for blood, when we DON'T actually know for sure who did it. People seem pretty sure that it's Afghanistan, but they haven't admitted it yet. And even if they did, bombing them hardly seems like it'll fix the problem. How many more innocent people are you going to kill for revenge? Okay, maybe some terrorists from Afghanistan did it. The density of terrorists in Afghanistan is higher than most countries, but there's still a LOT more people there who had nothing at all to do with the attack. We know for sure that a minimum of 4 terrorists made an attack on the US. Those 4 are dead. Fuck. A lot of innocent, unexpecting americans died yesterday. So what do people want to do about it? Kill a lot of innocent, unexpecting people in other countries. Sure, we'd like to kill the people who ACTUALLY had something to do with it as well, but the lives of innocents in other countries are worth less than the lives of people here. That's no fucking better than the terrorists. Calm your bloodlust, people. I agree that the people who were behind this should be punished. But we shouldn't punish others just because they live in the same country as the terrorists.

They danced in the fucking street because Innocent Americans were killed. They are creatures we cannot understand

Some of them danced. However, others probably cried because they're afraid that they're going to be bombed now. And others, surely, cried over the death of more humans. You've never met them Trace. And it's not like America hasn't given lots of people reason to hate us. You've got to expect some dancing. "They are creatures we cannot understand" Do you mean that they support the killing of thousands of civilians? Look in the mirror.

Sure we can understand them. We'll understand them when we're dancing in the streets because we bombed the fuck out of them.

Viewing them as creatures only makes it easier to kill them. Seems that worked pretty well for those who viewed us as the Great Satan. I'm not saying that we shouldn't retaliate. We should. But don't think of it as killing creatures. Think of it as killing your brothers and sisters because you're insane with grief over what they did. Think of it as killing whoever gets in your way because you're insane with anger. Think of the sadness you'll feel over what you did because you couldn't help doing anything else. Then think of changing.

Or, we could think of changing first. But we won't. We may not think of it at all.

We've given them every reason to view us as The Great Satan. So money-driven it's sick.

You know, fuck that. It's not like other nations, nations which hate the idea of America very much, have rules against making money. It's not the making money of which we are even accused. Certainly the U.S wields its economic might like a sledge hammer...but it's not our money which is unwelcome. It's culture. There's not a price on the head of Bill Gates, there's a price on the head of Salman Rushdie. Dig?

Whatever. You seem to hate this country so much yourself. All I ever hear on this site is nothing but hatred for what is traditionally American. I am sick to my soul, and I am getting sicker. You hate differently then the terrorists. You hate people that are different then you. Yet you pretend to embrace diversity, but reject all ideas that you do not hold yourselves. True diversity is accepting all views and not insisting they adopt yoursI see them as heartless sons of bitches dancing in the streets. We did not dance in the streets when we started bombing Iraq. We do not paint pictures of their flag on cows and slaughter them in the streets. The reason they hate us (and england and all free societies) is because we do not run our country the way they do, and our "god" is not their god. Anyone that does not embrace Ala as our leader. They have a very narrow view, and feel that anyone that does not agree with their veiw is not a person that deserves to live. This is a problem that has been here for decades, and even IF Bin Laden did not do this, he is responsible for terrorist attacks on innocent people in the past, this was just the latest and worste example of what they are doing. He still deserves to die, and any country that allows him to live there and protects him is just a guilty of killing innocents as he.

Money driven or not, it makes no difference. These are *people* we're talking about. Sure, most of us want to see those responsible pay, but it solves nothing to randomly bomb anyone. Tbone is right. We need to know what happened *before* we start bombing the shit out of anyone. Otherwise, we become the same as the terrorists.

I'm here guys.

That was not aimed at Margret. It has nothing to do with money. It is religion. Pure and simple. Just like the inquisition, it must come to an end. I do not advocate the killing of innocents. This needs to be a surgical strike. But if a country protects the ones that we find did it, then that country must pay the price. It is not our fault innocent people who live in that country die, nor is it is innocent citizens fault either, but rather the leaders of that country. To blame us for the death of innocents is to blame judges for the death of a convicted murderer. Further more, this type of terrorist attack is not something that can be coordinated by just a small group, and it would seem required the assitance of some government.

christ. Bush's speech was empty. Fucking pussy. I was hoping he'd at least say he was going to Congress to get a declaration of war....even if it symbolic. They don't have Bin Laden because they cant find him. He's a sneaky motherfucker. Hes been in afghanistan for years, so they say. But its not a matter of just going and getting him.Intelligence got more difficult with encryption technology. Further, 5 years ago, the CIA and FBI made it more difficult to obtain and pay spies with violent backgrounds. You don't get inside info on a terrorist organization with people who DON'T have violent backgrounds. So tracking him has been much more difficult. Yes there was an "threat" made weeks ago but what exactly are they suppsed to do? Further, you are forgetting Iraq has VERY good reason to fund and organize this kind of action. We've been bombing his missle sites for years. Platy, Negotiate???? We've been "negotiating" with the Taliban for years to hand him over. They won't. They harbor him, the love him there. They sanction him. Fine...pay the price. Diplomacy has never worked with the Taliban. Hey trace, Clinton DID comment...he asked for Americans to stay calm and patient...or something to that affect. id be fucking HAPPY to have airport security like it is in Israel or Europe. I have NO PROBLEMS waiting 2 hours for a flight if Im assured its safe. I would LIKE to see armed gurds like I saw in Paris....guys in fatigues with machine guns and german shepards instead of highschool lackeys with plastic badges getting paid $8/hour. Trace to get worked up over people dancing in the streets abroad, to some place you'll never go...well, you show your ass. People hate americans, this is fact, and many have damn good reason. And Tom I dont think anyone is going to get nuked over this. I just kept telling myself..."Today, they bombed my country using our citizens and aircraft. How would you feel?" They used American citizens as shotgun pellets. Deploy the force of our military, FBI, CIA, do whatever it takes...and destroy those responsible. No apprehensions, no trials, no courts. This is BEYOND criminal justice. Please.

and trace....you cant even BEGIN to understand the Palestinians. They've been ducking bombs for years...you have no idea. So..its best you just not pay attention to them. and im sure margret will respond accordingly, but shes much more of a patriot than you can possibly understand trace.

Odd way to celebrate a day of mourning, wouldn't you say?

oh are you kidding???? this is a greenlight for sharon to clean house.

These people have a different mentality and a different morality that we have.They have been at war for centuries.This is nothing new to them.They live daily with bombs going off next door. On some points,I agree with Trace.For instance,his point that regardless if Bin Laden is responsible or not,he should be eliminated from life.I thouroughly agree.He is not a being who should be allowed to continue enjoying lifes benefits.He is just evil.Period.Like Hitler.He needs to go. These subversives seem to have infilterated our everyday lives.WTF,flight schools in Florida,recruiting foreigners to "come fly with us"?I'm thinking it might be time to simply say: "Were mad as hell,and were not going to take it anymore.Hand over such and such terrorists,that you are harboring,or feel our rath".Enough is enough.

dougie, i'm so glad you are okay. i thought i had seen a post from you yesterday, but then i looked back and was mistaken. heard from swine. he's okay. i was so relieved. i refuse to hate.

"i refuse to hate" thats good. i overheard some assholes in the bar last night say "towelheaded motherfucker..." and so on and so forth. That made me really uncomfortable. I hope to god...we dont start hearing about domestic reprisals on other americans, naturalized or not. That would make me even more sad.

dubya said he'd make no differences in the treatment of the terrorists or those who harbor them. here's what i feel about the situation: the terrorists will get theirs. whether it's hell, karma, or whatever it is, they will find what they did to be wrong. i don't think anyone heard me on this, but isreal and palestine were to meet for peace talks yesterday. i imagine they came to no conclusion, even if they did meet.

This is heavy stuff, for sure.....don't even know where to go with it. One thing for certain is that if it IS war, then it's a kind of war Americans have never fought before....fighting a renegade faction or a group of individuals ISN'T the same thing as fighting a country or an army occupying a country. It's going after someone who is hidden. And if we were to march into Afghanistan or whatever----anyone prone to sympathize with bin Laden would just sympathize moreso. Not cut and dry AT ALL. An important note: We weren't dancing in the streets when we bombed Iraq? We sure as hell were! People treated it like a goddamn tailgate party. I remember it---and it disgusted me. Here at U of A threats are already up against Middle Eastern students. People are already getting stupid. This is what worries me most---people getting stupid.

1. The Taliban has Bin Laden, we've been trying to get that fucker from them for years but they won't give him up because they know the second they do the country will rip them to shreds. He's become a hero in their eyes, and if he were given to us "The Great White Satan" by the Taliban, they would revolt. The Taliban will never give his ass up. 2. As for not knowing who did this, pay attention to the fucking news people, Bin Laden threatened us he would do something like this 3 fucking weeks ago. As well don't you find it funny that this happens on the anaversery of the signing of the treaty. September 11. (911) I relize the 911 part is a horrible coincidence, but the fact remains, we are not without someone to point the finger at, we are not without an enemy to punish. The United States Goverment and The people of the United States should ney let this tradgedy go unpunished. TBone, its times like these that I have trouble understanding the pacifist in you, and I'm sure you have a hard time understanding my urge for violence. Until today, people feared waltzing into the US to commit an act of terrorism, the last MAJOR terrorist act we had was commited by an american and we killed his ass. If we sit back and negotiate, and try to absolve this, we acomplish nothing, we've been trying to negotiate for years. No now is the time, for us to say yes, they have given us an excuse to beat the shit out of them. In the playground of the world the United States is one of the bigger kids, we may not be as old, but we have the size on our side. A long time ago we quit being bullies, and only pushed when either we were pushed or someone pushed our friends around. Lately, its been that we've been pushed and we just sit their and try and talk it out with those who push us. NO MORE, I say this kid beats the fuck out of the kid pushing us, and give all those other kids on the playground who want to push us around something to think about. These people tried to make an example out of the US, and I say we make the example out of them.

hes a hero because the CIA trained him and he helped to force Russia to retreat during that war in the 70s and 80s. Thats why the Afghani people love him.

Oh, Bin Laden totally deserves to go, but I don't think but bombing innocent civilians is the way to do it. I've been hearing reports of threats against middle eastern communities here, although I haven't heard of any burning stores or murders yet, for which I am very thankful. After the Oklahoma City Bombing I remember this happening...and the culprits turned out to be a couple of white guys.

I can't help thinking about the Gulf war, and the bombing of Baghdad... I know, they are different things, but I still think about that. At the time, watching it, I said to myself, we will owe for this...

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&th=54ab4d241c34e0cc&seekm=3b8fd177%40monitor.lanset.com&scoring=d#link1 this doesn't make as much sense now as when i read it last night. but that's because at least 10 posts were deleted from the beginning of the thread. read it anyway.

I think that on a realistic vein,whether its right or not,that it will be a very difficult time to be of mideastern descent,and living in the US right now. Emotions are running high.And people aren't thinking clearly.Lets not forget the impounding of those of Japanese descent,during WW2.

thanks agatha. thank god. can someone please explain to me the origin and nature of the hatred of the people/entity who might be responsible for the terrorism. in other words, what exactly is their beef with the US? is it religious, economic, cultural, or something else?

thank you for the concern. i am so glad that opie is okay. i was really scared for him. i work a few blocks from the WTC. i was in the train when the first plane hit, but i heard and felt the second one. i was on the phone with family when the first building fell and people in my office were screaming and running and then the intercom came on and they said they were evacuating the building. we came outside and there was so much smoke and dust. i work next to the FBI building so everyone was scared of bombs. we had to walk with thousands of other people, who were suprisingly calm out of downtown. i stayed in the 20s for a while to make sure that nothing more was coming. i had some bad dreams last night.

the peace talks were cancelled, pez. sarah, that's how i felt, too.

american excess. we fund and support israel, with military and rhetoric. The Gulf War. Its easy to hate the US when you are a repressed people via religion or gov't or both. Vegas went on lock down, being an epicenter of American decadence. I think its just our way of life.

Pez,I think if you think about this logically,that the link you posted was coincidence.This attack was so cleverly machinated,the timing so precise,that I find it very doubtful,that the perpertrators would have allowed info to slip to some twit who is stupid enough to post a forewarning on a public message board.Knowledge of the threat was well known.So this was just some hopeful dissident,not anyone with actual knowledge.

Bell_Jar...thank god. Sarah it really depends on who did it--a lot of the middle east has a major problem with the US for our support of Israel, which is partly a religious conflict. The US gives Israel billions of dollars in aid, weapons, and soldiers yearly. A lot of mothers, brothers, fathers, sons, sisters, daughters, etc, in the Middle East are very upset that American trained soldiers are killing their loved ones with American weapons and American money... This could be a case of local boys, too, although evidence does point to the middle east.

Time will tell. And then they will pay.

it is religion, that is why they hate us. If anyone in America does anything to harm the Islamic people who live in the U.S. because they are islamic, then the aggressors are nothing better then terrorists. Countries who continue to protect the terrorists are themselves terrorists. ACTS OF AGGRESSION against any group that differs then your own must stop. Wether they or you be Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Athiest, Satanist, Paganist, ect does not matter. This must stop. Courts will not stop it. Arrests will not stop it. Removal of the aggressors are the only thing that will stop it. Except then they become martyrs, and that may cause others to become like them

i'm sorry if this is in bad taste, but it just occured to me that the last thing swine posted was something about not going to new orleans - he was going to stay in new york where it's safe. i wonder if this means he'll reconsider coming to new orleans. and mark? i don't know what else to say, except i'm sorry. all of this must be more awful for you than words could express. hang in there.

the youth population in the middle east is tremendous. you have many adolescents who will grow up hating america. There are more people growing up to hating the US than you can imagine.

cat you can be sure if there is full scale war....im coming your way sugartits!!!! you guys seem pretty isolated down there.

i think i'd rather be a victim than an aggressor. i had a long chat with joe (my landlord) last night. he called to inform me with what was going on at the house and we naturally began disscussing the day's events. his mother called. that wouldn't be a big event in most cases, but joe's been estranged from his parents for the last two years or so. he was angry because she called yesterday when it might've been too late. i believe it is senseless and cruel to demand revenge because it will only make the situation worse. if we can make peace directly with the aggressor, the world will be the better for it.

Post here please...this thread is taking forever to load...have mercy on us with slow connections.

Sugartits....? War is inevitable much like death.

make peace with the aggressor? fuckin A pez....you wanna just hand them the key to the city too? invite them over for dinner? It took 50 years and 2 atomic bombs to make peace with Japan. It took a revolution to end the cold war with Russia. Where in this devastation do you see a sane dialog with the aggressors? Where is the sanity PERIOD. At least the a-bombs dropped in Japan were targeted for military targets.....though they were limited in their destruction to that.....at least they tried. You hit me, im most likely going to hit back. Treat unto others, as you wish to be treated yourself. This goes for kindness AND cruelty.

I can't believe what I just read. Trace: "guys in fatigues with machine guns and german shepards." I know everyone is shocked. Angry. Wanting answers. But think about this: To save ourselves from possible dangers, we give up a hours of security at an airport. The so-called security guards can and do stop people random or at will if they believe something is amiss. Soon, the security guards have more power than the people paying to use that form of transport. Good people do the job, but then a few bad get in as well. The bad start to take advantage of the situation. If they don't like women, Caucasians, Asians, men, Hindus, brunettes, etc. they target those for "possibly dangerous suspects." If enough of the bad get in power, it isn't safe for certain people to use the airport anymore. We've given up the right to be human, for the sake of safety. I'm not saying this would necessarily happen. And I'm not saying that we should continue with lax security. But damn, this country lives on the dream that we can all be ourselves. Do we really want to give up part of what makes us American so that we can be secure in the knowledge that no bad men will get us? Bad men and women exist. We can try to protect ourselves, but in some cases, we will lose. But I would rather live in the jungle with the real possibility of death at an early age, then live in a cage until I'm ninety.

i made that comment, and it was a reference to what i saw in Paris after a series of bombings on teh subways. I have no problems getting to the aiport two hours in advance for security precautions for a one hour flight to San Francisco. Travel by air is not a right, its a privilege. Airline safety is not about freedom or being an American. Travel abroad and see how lax we are with security. In israel...i forget the airline....maybe its Tower Airlines...i forget, but they have a trained, undercover, armed sharp shooter on every plane In case of a hostile take over. Im ok with that. I dont see any of this as an infringment on my freedoms. Its an issue about public safety.

Fuck go to a german airport. Nothing like guys with submachineguns at every corner.

This is just my humble opinion, but when I land in an Italian airport and see guards with machine guns, I feel safe. Your mileage may vary. A family friend works at the Pentagon, in the Army wing. I don't know if he's okay yet -- my dad's looking into it. I feel horrible because my dad wanted me to go with him to visit our friend and his family a couple weeks ago, but I refused to go because the guy can be kind of dull. That was my reason. I hope he's okay.

i'm not going to fly for a long time if i can help it. i just don't think that violence is the answer. handing them a machete and baring my neck isn't the right answer either. don't you see? if we attack, we're no better than they are. it's nearly impossible to get at the aggressors without killing innocent civilians in the way. and then THEY'd want revenge on US... we can stop the cycle right here and now if the government was willing.

what do you propose we do? put the aggressors (the planners, of course, seeing that the hijackers have joined their victims in death)in jail for life? pay for their room and board and cable tv? Might as well tell everyone "Hey, cant afford rent and groceries? Fly a plane into a building, and get room and board for life!" By the way, it cost $25,000 dollars for these fuckers to fly a jet liner, and they paid it upfront. Terrorism must be a high paying job.

We cant stop the cycle. They will do it again, if they can. Its naive to think they wont. Its possible to take out those responsible without killing a civilian. We have special forces. We have assasination groups. In 3rd world country like Afghanistan, it wouldnt be too difficult.

Why would you have an armed sharpshooter? You can't fire a gun in a plane. Or, rather, you can, but you'll with you hadn't. I'm all with Patrick. Let's go undercover here. Oh, and *please*

yes you can....sure you can fire a gun on a plane. they have bullets that are designed to not exit the body. A sharpshooter could cap a hijacker between the eyes and end everything. A sharpshooter undercover. A guy with a precision hand gun under his jacket....but looks like he is going to Maui. Being Israel....seems like a keen idea to me.

oops

They have bullets designed not to exit the body....provided you're lucky enough to ***HIT*** the body. Anybody ever seen "Goldfinger"?

well sharpshooters are pretty damn keen with guns. a bullet from a hand gun would not pierce the shell of a plane though.

Fine what they need is hidden camera's on the plane, that look at the passangers and everywhere else. At the first sign of hijackers of any kind, the guy in the cockpit watching the monitors these camera's are attached to pushes a button and it expells a gas into the cabin of the plane, which is sealed off pressure wise from the cockpit. This gas will basically put everyone to sleep, they land and shoot the hijackers on sight.

now thats pretty cockemamy what is more plausible is that cockpits are only accessible from outside the plane.

I don't have time to keep up with all this any more. Forgive me if I skipped something important. Thanks, Spiral. You've also nailed my other fear. That we'll be begging to give up freedoms for the sake of safety now. I don't WANT to be like other countries with armed guards all over. I DON'T feel safe near armed soldiers because I don't feel free. After long enough, someone's going to be shot because a zippo lighter fell out of their pocket and some overly triggerhappy guard considered it a weapon. Men with guns in the airports won't necessarily stop terrorists. It's not like the airport security recognized them as terrorists but he got through because they couldn't shoot him. I don't have hatred toward america. But I do have a lot of disgust for it. I have plenty of disgust for what is "traditionally" american. I think America as a whole is a very smug, selfish, isolationist nation. There are many countries with which we have active trade, but the FBI will tell you not to go visit those coutries. Give the government a reason to put cameras everywhere and we'll never get rid of them. They'll start as anti-terrorist cameras, then they'll move to looking for drug trafficers, and then to people known to listen to "Rock" music, then those who speak against the Home of the Free. Trace, I don't hate anyone, or I try not to. But I do have a lot of fear. You're welcome to have any point of view you like. I didn't say you couldn't. I'll just speak out against any point of view that leads to killing. Oh, that jail-is-a-resort argument. Go to prison for a while. See how you like it. Do all the bad things you like to the actual people behind the terrorism. They personally (and there can only have been a very few) deserve to come to justice. There's just to way a bomb can do that. Trace, if you're really against the killing of innocents, please take back your "KILL THEM ALL" statement. "ACTS OF AGGRESSION against any group that differs then your own must stop. " Yes. I agree. Including those groups that do not believe that the USA is a great and wonderful place. Including those groups that dance at our pain. We don't know they did it. And I REALLY doubt that the people dancing in the streets knew a thing about the attack until afterward. Sorry if this is rambling. There's to much to reply to. Too much to say. I can't keep up.

they knew about the attack, thats why they were dancing. Having armed National Guardsmen at airports....as a presence does NOT infringe on my freedom. Please explain to me how this would be an infringment. Are you concerned about cops being trigger happy? National Guardsmen at the airports are no more trigger happy than the police officers driving around your town. Have you been in an airport with Armed Guards in fatigues and german shepards and machine guns? The first time i saw it ....fucking alarming as hell. But after a while, it became ok. Nothing to fear, and I wasnt any less of a FREE person because of it. Thats nonsense.

It's just a single step... one of many. But most people don't think so. No, I'm not worried about them being trigger happy. I'm worried about them going from protecting us to watching us, keeping us in line. It's not an immediate thing. Guards in airports won't suddenly turn us into Russia. But it could help over time. That's why I mentioned the cameras. It's another step. No one single thing makes us noticeably less free. But I don't want to need to get used to seeing armed guards in my airports. I don't want to have to get used to being watched by cameras wherever I go. I don't want to get used to being eyed suspiciously because I might stick out in a crowd, look like the type of guy who could be a terrorist, or because I have a different point of view. I don't want to be guilty before innocent. Guns don't wait until you're proven guilty. It seems sensationalist, I know. But watch closely the laws that will be passed in the next short while. Add them up, then multiply by the next few decades. Armed guards can sure keep people under control. Don't give up freedom for safety. Officials on the news have been talking about how Americans are "going to have to get used to a few inconveniences". I wish I could find a quote but I can't. It was on CNN. "have to"? that's not freedom. I'm afraid of the government watching us closely, thinking "Any one of you could be a terrorist!" That thinking leads to thinking of the general populace as "them" instead of "us". There's a fine line between protection and control. The government could easily cross it without realising it. Do you really think the people dancing knew it was going to happen before it did? Do you think they really could have pulled it off if it was public knowledge? Of course they knew afterward. They could just be happy at our misfortune.

those willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. -ben franklin

The armed guards in all the countries I've been to have been very courteous and most helpful. I didn't feel that they were infringing on my freedom at all. Totally appropriate for airports--look at Heathrow, the most bombed airport in the world--armed guards are really needed, and are used very effectively. I don't think British citizens feel threatened by the presence of guards who are trying to protect them from terrorists.

"Oh, that jail-is-a-resort argument. Go to prison for a while. See how you like it." Get on a plane controlled by terrorists heading for a building, and i think you would choose prison.

People here in Japan keep asking me, "How do you feel? Are you upset?" What upsets me (aside from the attacks themselves, of course) is the that the Japanese people seem to be ignorant to the fact that it was an attack on the **world** trade center and not necessarily just America. They kind of say, "Wow, America's in deep shit. Hang in there." But I suppose they don't have a lot of room to point fingers...

ben franklin can suck my nuts. I was waiting for that quote. Since nate isnt here, i guess it would be you. airports are not an institution of freedom tbone. they are a public node of transportation. Do you feel this way when you walk into a courthouse? They are heavily secured too. If they want to have cameras on me, search my bags and frisk me, FINE. If it means this wont happen again, its a small price to pay. Assuming you dont have any intentions of hijacking a plane tbone what exactly is there to be worried about? You are speaking philosophically about freedom infringements, and philosophically you potentially have a point but when you do speak hypothetically its paranoid and sensationalist and not reall based on reality. Going from airport security and protecting planes from being hijacked and bombed to personal liberties being infringed.....please. Personal liberties do not apply when you are talking about the lives of 100s of people on a plane. Dont want to be searched and frisked? Fucking drive. But i think it terribly selfish and naive to not demand steps be made so that 4-6 people on 4 different planes in three different cities within 2 hours not be able to take control of them and destroy so many.

I agree, I will wait the fucking time, so that I know that people have been checked out. Fuck they took the god damned plane with box openers people.

some small personal liberties must be sacrificed at times for the large life liberties of others. but if this gives security reason for more racial profiling, it won't be good.

Yeah. SFO has been talking about how to beef up security without racial profiling. I am all FOR security. You want to search my bag and make sure I don't have a knife? PLEASE DO. All European airports have security like this. We should join the modern world here...

We dont live in other coutries. Other countries also charge $5.00+ litre for gas. I don't, becuase I live in America. I don't want to take my daughters to the airport and have her see the gaurds in riot gear with an m-16 strapped on their back, and a german shepard on a leash. I saw enough of that at Whiteman to last me for a long time. What about patroling the streets in humvee's with gatlin guns on the top to look for car bombs? What about occasional random house searches to see if someone is building bombs in the kitchen? What about random vehicles pulled over and tearing them apart, ripping the apolstry off the seats and throwing your belongings on the ground, looking for bombs? What about random strip searches? what about tracking every purchase you make, especially with cash, to make sure you are not buying components to build bombs with? What about camera's in every room, especially bathrooms, in the air ports? What about monitoring all calls ever made to make sure no one is talking about a terrorist act? Should we do these things, or should we address the terrorist now in such a way that would make someone think twice before doing anything like this again?

Eschelon is recording all cellular calls at the moment. The FBI has installed Carnivore e-mail filters into all major ISPs "just until the current crisis ends."

it would be good if we were charged five bucks per gallon, because people would support public transportation more redily. america is the most wasteful nation in the world in just about any resourse. 22 lbs of garbage per person per day. tons of electricity. we prolly get discounts on gasoline because we (as a nation) buy so much of it. i'm an american, i have my freedom, therefore i drive an suv and eat mcdonalds for breakfast, lunch and dinner and am sure to get my JUMBO COKE. we have it pretty darn good so i don't even want to hear your right-wing complaints, trace. you may have heard of a little piece of paper called the bill of rights. this paper is insurance against dictatorship. you can talk all you want, own a gun, refuse to house the military, be freinds with who you like, vote. most people in the middle east, africa, latin america don't have nearly the rights you do. and what if our courts operated in the same fashion as those in france? instead of "innocent until proven guilty" you'd be considered "guilty until proven innocent". and random strip searches do happen. but you're lucky, trace, that you're a republican white male because they mostly happen to democratic black females due to racial profiling.

Well let see, your already watched by cameras, your phone conversations are already listened to, and the purchases you make with cash are also tracked. Its to late, there is nothing you can do to prevent that.

Then you never want your girls to travel Trace? I can't tell you how shocked I was when I got off the plane in Bali, to find guards with big guns. What was worse was when I went through the metal detector and my cheap jewellery set it off, but thats another story for a different day. We pay around $1 a litre for gas here.

since i quit going to school, i've managed to cut my gasoline consumption in half. even with making several trips into portland each week to prepare for the move and working nearly 10 miles away. i drink a lot of water, but have cut my shower time in half because of a drought. and i don't wash the car more than once a month, although i keep it as clean as i can. no mcdonalds since i was 16, no other fast food since late spring. i recycle and had my cat spayed, check the oil on the car so i won't have to replace parts. cut down on buying cds and wear my clothes until they wear out (even if they are out of style). what do you do to help keep your country clean?

JboxR, What part of Japan do you live in. An old friend of mine moved to Japan twenty years ago or so. And, I have since lost tract of him. He taught English at a Soporo private school. His name is Freeny. It has been years since I heard from him.

trace i don't even know what the hell you are talking about. You think the terrorist involved were thinking in the FIRST place? Airports are public places nitwit. If they want to monitor them with cameras so fucking be it. If it helps keep this from happening, so fucking be it. The National Guard could use the work anyway. Fuel is heavily taxed in other countries trace...to encourage people to take public transportation. You are/were the epitome of American wastefullness traveling 40 miles (or however far it is/was) to work everymorning. In Europe thats practically unheard of because of the taxes they amke from gas they are able to make and maintain vast rail networks. I have no problems if they wanted to tax to KABLOOEY out of fuel if the funds were dumped into public transportation. You don't have a right to drive and you don't have the right to fly in planes. They are privileges. If our gov't deems it necessary to take measures to make sure not another American plne gets hijacked, stop being a pussy and support it. Further they DON'T do random search and seizures looking for bombs. Its a waste of authorities time as much as it is yours. Further, gatlin guns havent been used since the 2nd world war. If you don't want your daughter to see airport security...armed military...then i guess you are destined to never leave the country. You really should travel abroad trace...it could open your eyes. My wife should tell you what it was like flying into Hangzhou China...the airport that used to be a military airport that still had gun turrets about and armed Chinese military on patrol. Being a red headed westerner, clearly she stood out and they eyed her....not because shes a threat but because its somewhat of an oddity in mainland China.

Patrick - do you need to be reminded of Kent State?

not at all. But i don't think the situation is comparable. The social climate is tremendously different. .I would dare say 80-90% of Americans would welcome National Guard presence in airports. Trained guards man specifically for such a job. Not Guardsman called out to quell a bunch of protesting college kids. Men in uniform were spit upon and looked down upon at that time due to the Vietnam war.

I tried to just post the link,but it didn't work for me,but go to http://www.drudgereport.com/ and click on Did Satan Rear His Ugly Face.

Matt Drudge is an ass. fuck that guy.

patrick, you seem like the soviet-era "useful idiot", always going along with the leadership, not thinking for yourself. a brick in the wall. i suppose that works, but you stand to lose so much when you give in to the hysteria created by a few people who felt that their opinion was not being heard or was not being considered. sure there were mistakes along the way, and this time there were tragic consequences. but this does not justify turning airports into police states. while security is important, america was founded on the ideal that people can learn to peacefully co-exist. when the american society (people and government) learn to do that, there will be no terrorism.

As much as I respect your opinion Purple. I agree with Patrick. There is a big difference between our rights and our privledges, and if I have to wait a extra hour at an airport so myself or many others don't DIE, then so be it. There won't be any random house searchings, or people searchings. But the people who man our airport security as of now, are untrained personel who make minimum wages. They should be trained, with backround checks run, and they should make more then minimum wage, it makes it a thankless job that no one wants.

"By dave. on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:37 pm: those willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. -ben franklin "By patrick on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:55 am: ben franklin can suck my nuts. I was waiting for that quote. Since nate isnt here, i guess it would be you." One of the founding fathers and authors of the constitution can suck your nuts? Need I say more?

um..yeah.... "if we could all just learn to peacefully co-exists...everything will be peachy" in case you havent noticed, a significant population of the world wishes us harm. the US only controls what happens within our borders.....what has happened was orchestrated outside out borders and imported in. if you simply think if we learn to peacefully co-exist in america then all of terrorism will cease....id like to propose you take the seat of village idiot. i think plenty well for myself. security in airports is a problem and has been for sometime. airports are not bastions of freedom. they are public service centers, that CLEARLY can be a gateway to tremendous death and destruction. Do I need to roll through the list of planes hijacked and bombed, that could have been prevented had security been up to par? there is no hysteria in my opinion. i would have said the same thing before had it come up. nitwit

trace....you should learn what to take seriously and what not. i dont hold ben franklin on a pedastal because my high school text books say i should.

you seem to think politicians then are somehow more noble and worthy of our respect then. like they onyl got corrupt in the last 25 years.

"But the people who man our airport security as of now, are untrained personel who make minimum wages. They should be trained, with backround checks run, and they should make more then minimum wage, it makes it a thankless job that no one wants." That I can more then agree with. A Sky Marshall on each flight is a great idea, or a gun in the cockpit. I think there should be cameras in the cabins so the pilots will know what is going on. Maybe with the sky marshall actually in the cockpit watching it. That would be ok

Go live in one of the other countries you seem to cherish.

You seem to condemn the politicians. They didn't do this. I wouldn't want the responsibility they currently have on their shoulders. We are all human and not a one of us perfect. Anyone thinking that they are is lying to themselves, so why condemn and whine about the people who are trying their best to help us in a bad situation? When a loved one is dead, who the hell cares about how long politicians have been corrupt so long as they are trying to help us now? We can worry about corruption later. Let's save lives and freedom now.

you all seem to think you know so much about what is and what is not. i would be generous by saying that most of you scarcely know in which direction your own knee is jerking.

i knew it! this whole thing stunk of romulans from the beginning.

At this point we need to support our government. They are the ones who are going to defend us. They are the ones who are trying to make the best decisions possible to secure our future and the future of the next generation. All we can do is support them and pray for our country and the people who have lost so much. This is not over, and the losses are just beginning. Please, support each other, forget politics and pray for each other, whether you be Christian, Moselm, or anything else. Please pray not just for our future but the future of the world, because it will never be the same again. I don't think any one of us is capable of understanding every nuance and every consequence and every effect of the past few days. All we can to is band as a United World and set our differences aside to do whatever we can to protect ourselves and our loved ones and all those we haven't even met. I have spent the last few days crying, and I know that I am not done yet. All I want to do is help remove some of this pain, yet I am completely uncapable of even donating blood to help. I ask that no matter who you are or where you are from that you remember that you are loved unconditionally and the best thing we can do is spread that and try to heal. We do need to stand strong. This cannot go unpunished. Not for America's sake, but for the worlds. This is well beyond just one country, or one nation. This goes well beyond hate. Evil, yes. Monstrous, yes. Senseless, NO. I beg of all people to band together. This was wrong, and if it happened to anyone else I would say (and have said) the exact same thing. We need to take a stand for the future and pray, just pray. This is not over yet.

Contact your representative: http://www.house.gov/writerep/ Contact your Senator: http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm

As far as the security at airports, fine. we take all of the precautions we feel are necessary. These terrorists are not going to let them stop that. They can still fly in from wherever (unless they are already here), and then do car bombs and letter bombs and plant bombs, some with bio-hazardous material, buy rocket launchers (it can be done), whatever it takes to do what they did Tuesday, and what they most certainly set out to accomplish, as evidenced even here on this BBS. Strike TERROR. Make the government tighten it's regulations on it's own citizens. Have everyone look over their shoulders, wondering if this person or that person is one of "them". Evacuate buildings on a regular basis. Take away a little more freedom in exchange for safety. I myself right now am afraid to fly right now. I see a picture of a plane and shudder. I wonder about cars slowing down when they drive past my house. I hear helicopters flying over head and wonder who they are looking for. I hear sirens go off and wonder if a bomb has gone off somewhere. Ithas not even been 72 hours yet, and the world has already been irreversably changed. Yes, they did what they set out to do. And they will do it again. Next time it won't be a plane. They will walk into a daycare with TNT strapped to their chest, or they will park a car outside of a school and set off a bomb loaded with anthrax. The only way to stop this is to stop them. Eridicate them at the source. No pansy-wansy way about it. Get rid of them. Now. It is already too late

i remember squealing like a piglet on these boards over the outrages in kosovo and most of the citizenry here seemed comfortable brushing it off. not our problem, they said. i guess it takes a spanking like this to make people pull their heads out of their asses and realize that this kind of shit is bad and has been bad since the dawn of "civilized" man and that their freshly exposed heads smell like shit and they need to get a clue and a bottle of shampoo.

i remember the whole deal with kosovo. read "zlata's diary" if you can find a copy. it's an excellent book and she manages to survive through a couple years worth of warfare, not just one attack.

Regarding airport security: Remember the superbowl? Face recognition software was combined with ubiquitous cameras, identifying (often falsely) criminals in the crowd. Bet on this to be implemented in all airports now. Cameras are already used in airport security checkpoints, and in fact two of the hijackers were recorded passing a checkpoint in Portland, Maine...on their way to Boston... No doubt it can be proved that if the software had been monitoring that camera and the terrorist's faces had been on file, thousands of lives would have been saevd. Cameras are widely accepted, often ignored, and putting the software behind them can be done with little fanfare and publicity. It's practically a slam dunk. If you thought electronic tracking of people's movements was bad now, just wait a few years.

"purple" reaks of dave's baffoonery. thats poetic about the heads and shit and so on and so forth. no dave, most don't have all the facts. and standing back and reminding us we may or may not know what we are talking about doesnt not elevate you in any way. in fact, most of us are a cocktail of apprehension, fear, sadness, confusion and anger.

I'd like to know,who this"purple"is,coming in here,and calling our Patrick a "useful idiot"?Thats a priveledge we reserve for ourselves. Patrick is quite capable of thinking for himself,and I for one,am always quite interested in his input,on any given subject.Of all of us,I would have to say that Patrick is the one,who tries to view things from many angles,he is probably alot more tolerant,than many of us. Sorry,I'm cranky,and I'm just not in the mood for Patrick to be criticized,by someone who can't even pick a patriotic color,to call themselves.

like i said, the fact that the P in purple is not capitalized, smells of dave....baiting. i actually like the reference, not that i think myself as a useful idiot but i like the nonsensical "soviet-era" reference. as if the fuckwit knows anything about soviet-era slang.

Actually purple is a sorabji lurker who lives in Billings. I know him, not a bad kid, but I definatly don't aggree with his position on this, he blames our goverment, pointing out that they "deserved it" and that "...they should have known it was coming." he didn't post those here he did it on another board. He's over stepping his bounds though with getting on Patrick like that, only we reserve the RIGHT to do that.

what do we do next time? presuming that there is a human race after america's retaliation, what happens if there is another attack? patrick seems to think that making airports (and apparently only airports) into police states is ok. fine, but what happens when there is another attack? surely we can't blame the hightened security. so then who does the blame fall on? patrick? harfly, im sure he can find someone unpatriotic to pass the buck to.

im sorry since when did we regard transportation nodes as bastions of freedom???? Its a fucking airport...a fucking plane to take your ass elsewhere so you can go about your business. Stop acting like they are going to be monitoring every damn phone call and little black cars will be watching your house. All i want is -more bomb sniffing dogs. -Highly trained security personel NOT contracted by the airlines but either by the FAA or local police -More strict access controls -Sky marshalls -Armed guard patrols for visual deterrence as well as physical security Where within those points is YOUR freedom infringed? This has nothing to do with patriotism or blame. And my opinion is not limited to airports, but considering, airplanes loaded with fuel have potential to harm and kill 500% or more people I think its an effective place to implement such measures. Sporting events and other large gatherings are entirely different. Im not advocating such measures at sporting events, schools etc. Hal are all Montana folk as stereotypically paranoid and illogical as this?

I have to say that just beefing up security at the airports WILL NOT dissuade these actions from repeating themselves. Mark my words. The only thing that might even have a slim chance of working is making Bin laden's fate so gruesome and horrible that it will make the other's think twice. But, from what I understand, we are going after the "others" as well, and the countries they hide themsleves in.

no no trace you got it backwards. If they didnt allow knives on planes and proper officials denied access to passengers with knives, no hijacking would have ever occured. there is nothing we could do Bin Laden or anyone of them to deter retaliation trace. beefing up security won't dissaude people from WANTING to do this, but it just may STOP someone in the process. get it?

by beefing up security at airports we will make a small impact in the amount of violence on airplanes. trace: if you want to stay safe in this world without beefing up security, make a cellar and line it with corrogated tin and fill it with canned food and bottled water. kepp your daughters down there and refuse to let them out until the age of thirty, listening to the 2001 sountrack on repeat ffor the next 25 years or so. or build a time machine. your choice. there are guarantees in this world. only decisions.

Well Patrick do you think I'm paranoid? I'm with you on this one cheif, although it seems that there is a consensuss and I've been seeing more and more Montanans lately who are.

I agree with Trace. The people who machinated this attack,think with a different mentality.They do not care what any of us think,or feel.And all the security in the world,can't stop those that are intent on terrorism.It may temporarily deter them,but it will not completely stop them. Lets be real folks.By beefing up airline security,[which has needed doing for a very long time],this will not put an end to terrorism.Are we silly enough to think,that this would be their conversations? "Drat,those clever Americans,have foiled our airport terroist activities,so now we'll just have to give up and go home,no more terrorist activities for us!" This is only one of their MO's for terrorism.It was oppertune,they utelized it.Beefing up airline security,will only require them to implement different terrorist means.[which I shudder to even think about] Trace is right.We have no choice,but to strike decisivly,and firmly.From what I understand,there will be a coordernated maneuver,not just against Bin Laden,but against all[whose whereabouts are known] terrorists,swift and well organized,and,well,it won't be "pretty".Whats left of terrorists,will think,long and hard before implementing such tactics against NATO again.Remember,its not just the USA,making this decision,its pretty much the free world[NATO]. I am a pacafist,but I have no doubt,that this is the only way to stop this.

im not sure anyone said it would STOP the problem. Only make it EXTREMELY difficult to do it via airplanes. "will think,long and hard before implementing such tactics against NATO again." this is not EVEN a consideration in their minds im sure. No amount of force will stop the problem only intensify their resolve against america.

Uh,Patrick,why is it exactly,you think we are doing this?Do you think we are going over there to "slap hands" because we are mad,and want to "get back" at them?You are missing the point.This maneuver is to say: "Never make the mistake of taking on NATO,[the free world],again.Period.This is your consequence,for your choice of activity."

oh sure, but it wont solve the problem. we are fooling ourselves to think otherwise. we take out 50 known terrorist...there are 100 more behind them.

I think its more of a " well thats the last fucking mistake you'll ever make." "HEY REST OF WORLD, don't be a stupid fuck like these people, otherwise nastythings happen."

http://www.ernieshouseofwhoopass.com/osama.swf

Well put,Hal. It's not that hard of a concept to follow,Patrick. And,no Patrick,it's not gonna solve everything,but its the best solution the most important minds of the free world,[NATO],have come up with.I'm not having trouble following their concept.

Well,that was just disgusting. Thanks hon,I needed that!We can always count on you when the chips are down. Tee hee "PIG FUCKER". I like that. I love ya,hon.I'd be lost without you. :)

"HEY REST OF WORLD, don't be a stupid fuck like these people, otherwise nastythings happen." you are fooling yourselves. history hasnt shown this ever to be the case. Take Russia and Chechnya, or Israel and Palestine. We will be into the very same frays very soon.

Terrorists don't operate the same way as a country. They have very loose organizations and relation ships. Taking them out will be a long drawn out process. Our intelligence must be impecable. And, our actions limited. We most be more like a surgen with his scalple. Than a butcher with a meat cleaver. And, we can only reduce the risks. Never eliminate them. We must never give up our liberties. Then they win.

OK, so go hide in a corner somewhere and stick your head in the sand. Damn it. We cannot just blame ourselves (we are partially to blame, without a doubt), and make a few security adjustments and "Legistlation" that makes it illegal to cary a plastic knife from Chicago's Pizza on board, but stop the creeps in their tracks. Yes, i always that it was a dumb ass thing to be able to bring a knife on board, but they will want to tear your portable CD Player apart (I have watched them do it several times on my business trips) to see if you had something hidden in it, but that is not going to stop them. The world is not going to be made safer by legistlating it. Never. And the US is considered by other nations as one of the most powerful in the world. We cannot let them kill 5,000 + of our own, plus guests of other countries, and then go make new laws and go on with life. That is opening our selves up. Why risk that? I know how the terrorist cells work. No one said it was easy, or clean. It will be vietnam, expecially in the mountains of Afganastan and Tebit. But, it must be done. "trace: if you want to stay safe in this world without beefing up security, make a cellar and line it with corrogated tin and fill it with canned food and bottled water. kepp your daughters down there and refuse to let them out until the age of thirty, listening to the 2001 sountrack on repeat ffor the next 25 years or so. " I think security should be tighter, however, I desperately don't want that to be our future. You start with a little, and each time it gets easier and easier to justify it. I quote many on this BBS when I say "I would be willing to give up a little extra [time]/[freedom]/[privacy] for security". How much is a little to you? How much is a little to someone else? next you will be saying "I would be willing to give up a little extra [time]/[freedom]/[privacy] for keeping drugs out of my kids hands". Then, it will be "I would be willing to give up a little extra [time]/[freedom]/[privacy] for keeping murders off the street". And so on, and so on, and so on. Until the [freedom]/[privacy] concerns a camera in your bed room, or in your toilet, what ever.... Draw the line in the sand, so to speak, now. Terrorist are winning. We are blameing ourselves, and giving up, while this time not too much privacy/freedom/time, some of it. They made us make changes and make life more difficult then it already is. I flew from KC to San Antonio, TX using Southwest. From the time I hit the Airport door in KC, to the time I exited the airport in TX, 14 hours had passed. Now add on the additional security. The Flight crew was rude. The "snack service" was a joke, you name it. It is a horrid experience at best flying today. Now, because some shit head decides to hijack a plane and drive it into one of the biggest buildings in the US, if not the World, it is going to take me an extra hour just to get on the plane. And if I am leaving for 30 days, like I usually do, I have to lug all that luggage all the way through O'Hare airport. And my family cannot go with me to see me off for a month. I have to sit in the terminal by myself for three hours. No, we should not compromise for the sake of crimimnals. No, my future I envision does not include tighter security because of these worthless wastes of space. My future I envision is a safe one. Where we don't have to worry about some jack ass wanting to kill himself and 50,000 others because he loves Ala and we do not. I know that that future will never happen. But dammit, I don't want the other one either. Better to deal with the source now then tighten the screws on our people.

Czarina thank you. It is nice to see someone who makes sense. I have enjoyed reading what you have to say. I don't see why this situation has to be so hard to figure out. The time for talk is over. The time for action is now. Terrorists are not going to be deterred by a slap on the wrists. The bomb at the WTC didn't work, so they flew planes into it. If they can't fly planes into buildings, they will find another way to destroy them and us in the process. If they thought like us they wouldn't have been willing to be kamikaze's. If they are not stopped, then it will be the end of the free world. After they are done with us they will move on to the next country and the next one until they rule all of the world by fear. We can stop them now and we must. This is your consequence for your activity. Done. I agree with the watcher also. If we give up our liberties, then they do win. They get what they want. Power over us driven by our fear. It is time to say "Hey we don't fear you. We are sick of you and now you screwed yourself. Would you like a jar of vaseline before you take it up the ass?" Thank God there are others who understand why we must do what we must. Now let's just figure out the best way to do it and be successful.

patrick -- shut the fuck up. a couple things: america, leave god out of it. that's what got us here in the first place. my fear is that this is going to develop into a fucking christian vs. muslim thing. knock off the god shit. this new found patriotism is very dangerous. just as born-again christians have little to do with christianity, born-again patriots have little to do with patriotism. be careful and be nice. another fear is the mccarthyistic backlash that the developmentally disabled american public is wreaking on so-called un-american behavior. this socially coerced moment of silence shit is the height of anti-american behavior. what, you didn't join the nation in the moment of silence? no, i didn't. where was the nation's conscience during the khmer rouge shenanigans, the rwandan massacres, the eastern european madness? where?! it was on me me me and jerry springer and britney spears and these fucking ridiculous, corporate-logo ridden preludes and acuras scurrying around the streets. because that shit was fucking IMPORTANT a few days ago. fuck you. borders. my border is about 4 miles up. fuck everything else. i don't care. those of you who think the other, unnecessarily complicated, and arbitrary borders mean anything at all important are underdeveloped monkeys and need look no further than their own reflection to see where the world's problems live. the attack. factories and warehouses in hostile countries need to be leveled. if it's a food factory or warehouse, destroy it and then send food. if it's pharmaceuticals, destroy them and then supply medicine. the next attack will likely be chemical or biological. fucking scary shit. we need to eliminate their capacity to produce these materials and we need to simultaneously support their food and medicine needs. i'm scared. i don't think that we can do this and it's going to get really ugly. it's not just us. pakistan attacks india, then what? russia's up for the highest bid. china? world war. you stupid motherfuckers.

I was listening to the news tonight, and I heard a phrase that scared me. and the more I thought about it, the more I realized I had heard that phrase a couple of times before during the week, but it was just now coming to my attention. I realize I mentioned this before, but the reality and the weight of it and the scope of it did not hit me until tonight. The phrase that caught my attention tonight was: New World. Welcome to the new world, born on September 11, 2001. CNN has dubbed this America's New War. This is most likely Paranoid Conspiracy Theory, at least I desperately hope so..... I have said, and truely beleive, that the world as we know it HAS come to an end. But what is the new world? Both sides of what we have been arguing here. Wars, plus the intesified security messures. The news services have been reporting as of late that what we saw on 911 is the debut of a new terrorist regime. One made up of many others, Bin laden only being a small part of it. The new network is made up of several "factions" or "cells" spread throughout the world in almost every country. And most of them are currently making plans for the next strike. We will strike Afganistan first. Then one of these factions will strike us back. This could take years. And when will we be done? How will we know we have won? We never will. It is like crime, you can fight to drop down the numbers, but you cannot defeat it entirely. So, greater security measures are needed, because of the constant retaliations. And constant fighting to combat this...

I'm scared,too.Really scared.Really,really scared.Dave,please save a spot,in your ass,for me. My child made a statement,that broke my heart,last night. She said, "Mom,I've got a plan,for what I'm gonna do,if they come here,to our house.I'm gonna hide in my closet,and when they come in my room,I'm gonna hit them in the head with my roller-blades." She is 11 years old.I comforted her.I told her they wouldn't come here,to America,with foot soldiers.So she didn't have to hide,in her closet. I didn't tell her why they wouldn't come with foot soldiers.I didn't want to have to tell her about bio and germ war-fare,about nuclear holocaust. I just heard the statement Afginistan made this morning,warning all Islamic countries,what would happen if they offered NATO support.They would implement war.The Taliban is advising,all of their countrymen,"to be prepared,like our fathers,and grandfathers,to lay down your lifes,for our country."

On a more humerous note,[and I really need something to make me laugh,about now],did anyone see the statment Bush made,while talking with the consrtuction workers,at ground zero? Bush was standing there,with a mega-phone to his mouth,with an older worker,next to him.Bush is telling the workers,via the mega-phone, "We feel your pain,we hear your pain",or something to that effect,but as he's talking,he turns his head,and now the mega-phone is about 8 inches from the old mans ear,and you can see the old man,shaking his head/ear,with his new deafness,and giving Bush a look like,"Get that damn thing out-of-my-ear!"It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Bush was oblivious to his faux-paux. I needed that.

Hah! I just heard the spokeman for Afginastan make the stupidist statement I've ever heard. "Bin Laden could not have been responsible for these terrorist activities,because we don't let him commincate with anyone in the outside world." WTF,how stupid are these people?

The Watcher: I'm hailing from Nagoya. Sorry, haven't heard of your friend. Everyone has plenty of good arguements FOR and AGAINST retaliation against terrorists or muslims in general. What people (out of positions of power) must realize is that we can't do jack about what's going to happen as far as a US counter-attack. After watching the news and seeing the disaster in New York, I was very supportive of a strong, everything-short-of-nuke-em attack. After reading some pointed remarks for other options and about America's history with other confrontations, I have begun to doubt my support for an attack. Either way, the only thing we can do is to be prepared for a change (quite possibly a big change) in our lives. Hopefully, things will work out more peacefully than feared and we will have nothing to worry about, but a little foresight and preparation for a problem that may arise is far better than not being prepared for something hard to deal with.

What I failed to mention in my ramblings above is this: This can very easily be the foundation for a new form of Government, not just in the US, but also in the world. A World-Wide coalition to combat the terrorist regime. Laws will no longer be national, but rather international. Privacy and Freedoms will have to be sacrificied in order to fight this enemy. I can totaly see a george orwellian 1984 rising up from this. The world is going to be divided in 2 parts very shortly. Bush said it himself. You are either with us or against us. If you are against us, you are supporting the terrorists.

i'm not so sure that's a bad thing. as long as our relative freedoms remain intact, i have no problem thinking of some other nation in a similar way that i think of another state or region in this country. could be a good thing.

possibly, but I am afraid it will not be that easy. check this link out: http://www.iht.com/articles/32342.html it says, in brief: In a sign of Beijing's increasingly close ties with the Taleban regime in Afghanistan, China has signed a memorandum of understanding for economic and technical cooperation with Kabul, press reports from Afghanistan and Pakistan said. . The agreement was reported Tuesday, the same day terrorists hijacked four planes in the United States and drove them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. A Chinese delegation signed the deal in Kabul with the Taleban's minister of mining, Mullah Mohammed Ishaq, the news reports said. This could mean that China will be finicially supporting Afghanistan durring the "war". Further proof to my conspiracy theory. We will not just be fighting with the Terrorists, but with China as well. Too bad Afghanistan does not realize the Chinese are just using them. Afghanistan will be nothing more then tombs and rubble when this is over. I wonder why the mainstream press has not even mentioned this? Surely it has come to their attention as well.

Damn.

doesn't say anything about china allying itself militarily with the taleban. we could pinch off that eastern spur of afghanistan and with the cooperation of india and pakistan and russia and maybe tajekistan, keep china from transporting arms. maybe. what a miserable place to live. hell on earth.

sorry about the ugly words up there. except for the "shut up, patrick", it wasn't aimed at anyone here. i wish i were a better communicator when it comes to the written word. it's just frustrating to see everybody finally realize these things are real and yet they still don't get it. i look around and i'm not comforted. quite the opposite. czarina, you've said some nice things about me and i don't think i ever replied appropriately. sorry, i'm just socially inept but i do appreciate it. good luck, everyone. we'll adapt. people with legs can't imaging living without them until they lose them. then, they simply live legless.

I am despondent today.I'm not sure I will ever be the same again.Me,who can always find the humor in any situation.Now I am afraid I have lost the ability to laugh at life. It hit me this afternoon.I think the waiting is the worst. This is rather self-centered,I'm afraid.It dawned on me this afternoon,what a precarious situation I am sitting in. With Barksdale airbase,with the second largest number of nuclear war-heads/bombs,four hours away from my home,and the oil rich Gulf of Mexico,about 45 minuets away,it dawned on me:Sitting duck. My children may never have a chance to grow up. I am terrified of these "sleeper cells".I fear that they already have kamikaze last ditch retalation maneuvers in mind.I'm sure they know they can't "win" the war,butI'm afraid they may be thinking to cause as much chaos as possible,before they go.I can't get this out of my mind. Various scenarios keep playing in my mind.I wish I was stupid.I think ignorance would be prefarable, in this situation.I wish my mind would stop.I don't want to think about these things,because there is nothing I can do to alter them. Does anyone know,can anyone help alleviate my worries? My biggest fear,is that there will be an attack on Barksdale,with all that nuclear shit there.I don't think by air,but I'm wondering,if some terrorist kamikaze nut,were to drive,say to within 20 miles of there,with some hidious bomb,in their van,and then detonate it,would it activate all that nuclear stuff?I know I shouldn't be thinking about this,but I can't help it.I don't know enough about nuclear bombs,to know what will activate them.Who would have ever thought,that would be info a regular person would need?My mind just won't stop.I know this is very self centered,and I am ashamed to be so fixated on this.I have friends everwhere,to worry about,maybe in more precarious situations than myself,but I just keep picturing this kamikaze nut,driving to Barksdale. My s/o finally said to me,"You're really worried about this aren't you?,I've never seen you like this." My only response to him was,that for the first time,I was facing the possibility,that my children may not have the opportunity to grow up.I'm not afraid for me,I've had a great life,better than most,and have few regrets.But I love my children.Very much.I will not discuss this with them.I don't want to frighten them.I am so scared.I need to pull myself out of this.This is not like me.I need to get a grip.I need to do something positive.I am loosing it.I'm sorry. And damn you Dave,say something mean to me.Don't be making your peace with me.That is to final.Tell me you don't have room in your ass,for a tart like me.Tell me you don't want a smart-ass like me,loitering about your nether regions. I care so very much,for each of my Sorabjite family members.You have been my lifeline to sanity,all these years,while I serve my time in Southern pergatory. Damn,I am stronger than this.I just need to get a grip.Sorry,I needed to vent.Now,I just need to pull myself together,and fear no evil,because I am a bad-ass myself.A really bad-ass.Not one to be trifled with,either.I will not be taken lightly.I won't. How fucking dare these damn terrorists eat our Hershy Kisses?Thats just not right.How could we not trust somebody,that eats Hershy Kisses.This has to STOP.[I need to stop,too]

Background: The separation in 1947 of British India into the Muslim state of Pakistan (with two sections West and East) and largely Hindu India was never satisfactorily resolved. A third war between these countries in 1971 resulted in East Pakistan seceding and becoming the separate nation of Bangladesh. A dispute over the state of Kashmir is ongoing. In response to Indian nuclear weapons testing, Pakistan conducted its own tests in 1998. Source: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html#Intro CIA World Factbook 2000

Czarina I wish that I had some wonderful words of wisdom to lay your heart at rest, but unfortunately I have been in the same boat as you these past few days. I was talking with my grandmother today looking for her view, because she has seen so much. She was recalling memories of WWII. I remembered her saying that after vietnam the world had changed so much that my grandfather was afraid of what we (my cousins and I) would have to grow up in. I am consumed by that fear now. I was sitting in church and looking at all of the children and wondering, which ones will have to go to war? I don't know when this will end. Which one of these precious babes will grow up in war time and then die in battle, never remembering life before this. I love my life. I was finally at peace with myself as a person and what I was here on this earth to do. I will still do everything I intended to do last week, when my eyes were closed. Will my children have these opportunities? To know who they are? To know why God put them here? To accomplish their dreams? I am fortunate. I am 27 years old and I have been living my dream for 2 years now. I have accomplished what I want in this life and am happy in continuing to do it. I am a wife and a mother and when I have spare time I am on a stage performing. The three things I love best. This despondency can be overwhelming sometimes. This neverending fear for the future. Only time can heal my fears. I only hope that it does.

Czarina, there's probably nothing i can say that could possibly assuage your fears. historically this whole mess has been awful for quite some time, and now we can't ignore it. now it has hit home in a way it never has before. we're all scared, and those who aren't scared mostly likely are not aware that they should be. it's an awful thing. we all lose, no matter how this turns out. but if there's any comfort at all, perhaps it's that we suddenly have learned to appreciate our families and friends in a new way, a deeper way. when we can't protect each other, at least we can always love each other. god bless this whole planet. p.s. valium helps me get a grip when i feel like i'm losing it. it has been very kind to me.

you will have my ass. you will all be nurtured and sustained by the fruits of my generous ass. you will weep bittersweet tears of joy and your voices, husky with passion and glee, will fill the countryside, penetrating the fitfull slumbers of the assless whose dreamy yelpings and flinchings will upset the family pets, causing potted plants to be knocked over and carpets to be soiled. but you won't care about that stuff. not in my ass, you won't.

Thank you guys,for the kind words. I am trying to rally myself,to not be so afraid,because if I live with fear,then they have won. I appreciated your kind words,Eri.Maybe one day I'll get to see you onstage. Thanks for the valium tip,Sarah.I have some left over Ativan,from when my father died.Maybe it can be my friend,too. And I feel much safer,knowing I'll have a spot in the folds of Dave's anus.

lets all rejoice in the joys of daves ass, for it and it alone will save the world! perhaps isnt it strange how things seem to fade inot insignificance in light of what has just happened? we were going to move house, but that seems so pointless at the moment..

allthough im not so sure about wanting to be nurtured by its fruits!!!!

I've been just sick since this happened,haven't been sleeping much,and Sat. I tried to take a nap,but when the sound of an airplane that sounded like it was coming down reached my ears I jumped out of bed and ran outside to look and I was just a shaking mess.A innocent man was murdered here on saturday,he was a hindu,he wore a turban and for that he was killed.This is not a religious war,this is an act by a fanatic,and you just can't go around killing people because they have a turban on their head,if you do,you are a terrorist too.What upsets me the most is we can't just go in and attack a whole country,most of the people of Afganistan are oppressed by the taleban themselves,they don't condone this hideous act of hate against our country.But the taleban and bin laden must go.

im sorry dave why am i the exception again? im read over your spew...and am wondering where exactly i come into play here?

In a way it is comforting to know that I am not the only one who feels the way that I do. Czarina if you are ever in Kansas City during the summer, I'll set up a seat for you center stage myself. We had a thunderstorm last night and every time it began to thunder I jumped. I am wondering if I should ask the doctor for something. I can't sleep and I just don't have the motivation to do much. I need a pick me up. Right now I could go for a happy pill, that will only cost me a $10 co-pay. I am doing better today. A party would be nice right about now. Something to take my mind off of reality. Now would be a good time to be in a play. Escapism is only a fantasy now. Dave's ass is starting to sound appealing at this point. At least it would be warmer there :) I hope that all of you are doing better too. By the way, does this even make sense?

J I do agree with you. What has happened is the act of a fanatic, not a culture or religion, but a man. To kill someone based on religion, or culture is to be a terrorist youself. My husband and I have had many discussions on this. I have worked with people from the middle east here. I have worked with muslims. Every one of them was a beautiful person to know and not a threat. I hope that the hate crimes stay to a minimum. The dumbest thing we can do is use this as an excuse to kill our own.

its all about distraction. i watched movies yesterday....went to the Getty on Saturday to see the Walker Evans exhibit and drink wine watching the sun set over the Pacific. we then went and spent $100 we didnt have over sushi, and took some X a friend gave us. distraction indeed. dave's ass is never appealing. don't be sucked in.

I watched movies,too. See Spot Run,was quite entertaining.Slapstick,but funny.

All this talk about Daves ass reminds me of a joke.A man goes to the doctor's house with a piece of lettace hanging out of his ass."That looks nasty" the doctor said."Nasty?" replied the man "that's just the tip of the iceberg!"

i watched gay porn and ate pork.

I watched "The Graduate" and "The Labyrinth" (twice), went grocery shopping, went to church, went past the Pentagon, and slept a lot.

I need another vacation. I want to run away to Canada. Canada, will you take me?

Eri, I would never offer them Vaseline. They asked for it so they're gonna get it. No lubrication provided.

Damn I'm good. :P

We watched Hannible, and then Showgirls. What a contrast. I will never watch hannible again. Damn that was nasty. I have seen gore before, but I will never get that image of Ray Leota sitting at the dinner table, anthony hopkins popping his head open, cutting a slice of his brain off and then feeding it to him, And he just sitting there.... But it did take our minds off of the world for a few hours anyway.

patrick -- ""purple" reaks of dave's baffoonery." shut the fuck up

Fine. I understand the argument against retaliation. OK, ladies and gentlemen. The United States took the terrorist hit ever on any country at any one time ever. After careful consideration, the United States, the world's most powerful nation, decided that to go after the people who are responsible for this hideous action, to kill that party or person, or country, would only inspire others to do the same thing. Besides, they did this to themselves by supporting 3rd world countries, defending Kuwait when it was invaded by Iraq,and sending foreign aid to Kosova when Melosavich tried genecide. Instead, they decided to ban curbside luggage check in, ban plastic knives from being used in airport cafeteria's and police their own people even more.

Take that Bin laden. I bet you never mess with another country again!

dude you duped me on ebay...you have baited me in the past....you have "baffoned" me before, what reason would i have to think you wont do it again? settle down

i did it all out of love.

Watch yourself,Patrick.I think he's trying to lure you to his ass. Take your own advice,be careful,and don't get sucked in.

my ass is not a happy place to be today.

no...no im sure its not.

It's buffoonery. I'm sorry, I can tolerate the misspelling once...but cease, cease, cease its reiteration.

heh

you just asking me to drive you up the fucking wall with incessant mispellings. you chronic, anal spell checkers need to find a hobby. bafoon bafooooon bafoon

further.....why are all the spell checkers around here girls? Spider, Agatha,, Marge?? what up with that?

it brings back memories of that annoying girl in class, in the front row....who would go out of her way to correct you, who would answer for the teacher...you know the type. Im not saying you guys WERE that type...but im reminded of such persona.

Look, between you and Hal, I'd never get a moment's peace if I corrected every spelling mistake I see. I don't care enough to, anyway. Really. Honestly. But listen, when you've just written some vehement, otherwise-well-thought-out missive on some topic you feel strongly about, remember that the preview function here is your friend. Slow down.

something i've written that is "vehement, otherwise-well-thought-out" ...spelling is not of concern. it really isn't. spider...im always jumping the gun, im always going to mispell, im always going to overlook mispellings, even upon proof reading. its been happening since i can remember. my handwriting is wretched because i want to say what i want to say...and i have to get it out...i leave out words because im anxious. This is not going to change. This is tied in to who i am. One who can fly off the handle, be tremendously emotional, but one is also easy to reproach...learn to apologize and admit wrong, and even change minds. You'd be surprised, I proofread my posts almost all the time....but i proofread the same way I write. So there's no point in pointing out my mispellings. It seems to only serves to make you guys feel better....and if it makes you feel better, well so be it.

And thats why you're known as our useful idiot. I love you Patrick.I love when you jump the gun.I love you when your posts are passionate,because I know they come from your heart. Please don't change.

i kinda take offense at "useful idiot".

I like Patrick because his mispellings make me look good.

Oh Patrick,I'm sorry.I wouldn't of called you that,but in another thread,you said you kinda liked being the "useful idiot".[which frankly,Mr. Smarty pants,I thought was a very odd thing for you to say] But I thought,well,if he doesn't mind,it is sorta a cute little nickname. I won't refer to you that way again.I'm sorry. But,still,please don't change.You're good just the way you are.

no i said i liked the term in context of the Soviet-era coined term, or so the user said. Didnt say i liked being CALLED that. Who likes being calling an idiot? Its ok....im not mad or anything.

I'm called the village idiot,all the time.But it doesn't bother me,cause I figure they're just jealous,that I have such a dandy plastic blow up boat,and matching pirate hats,and little headlight flashlights,and I get to be in charge of the whistle. Nope,doesn't bother me.

I didn't mean to pick on you, Patrick. Sorry if I irritated you.

Hey!As long as you don't seem so keen on keeping the title for yourself,would you mind if I took it? I can see me getting alot of use out of it.That way,if I post something really stupid,they'll know I'm in my "useful idiot" mode. So,okay,I can have it?

i don't apologize for correcting spelling. it bugs the shit out of me, i'll be honest. plus, i don't correct nearly as often as i could. every once in awhile, it gets the best of me. i can't help it. the spelling affects the meaning and the intent, in my opinion. i love you anyhow, patrick.

your just a big wuss, agutha.

The general objection is against my style; I do not set up for an author, but write only to be understood, no matter how plain. As my intentions are good, so have they had the good fortune to meet with approbation from the sober and substantial part of mankind; as for the vicious and vagabond, their ill-will is my ambition. Daniel Defoe, "Everybody's Business is Nobody's Business"

it can be pretty hard to understand people when they don't put together complete sentences or even phrases. there's a big difference between writers writing for artistic intent and people posting to bulletin boards or sending emails. it can be difficult to understand when the misspellings and typos are not the most common ones ("jsut" is not too distracting, for instance). sloppy writing is evidence of sloppy thinking, quite often. of course, feelings and emotions make up for sloppy thinking sometimes. but what's the point of being difficult to understand, especially when you're supposedly trying to communicate or convince? that's self-defeating. unless you enjoy being frustrated.

I can't understand you,and I find this most frustrating.I think you're self defeating. "sloppy writing is evidence of sloppy thinking"

B.B. If you thought and spoke in newspeak, you would not have such problems. Doubleplus good it is!

Spunkster,is the Eri that has been posting here,your s/o?

I am not sure what s/o stands for. Forgive me. I am somewhat computer illiterate. If any of you are interested in how I found this website or who I know, I am Trace's wife. Eri is an old nickname from catholic school, that my family and friends still call me, so I use it when I feel like I am around people I can be me with. I hope there aren't any misspellings, but then again I only made it through 1 year of college. I hope all of you are well and O.K.

significant other.

Yes, she is

Oops, they figured me out. I have been caught! Hee hee.

i don't think my mispellings have prevented people from understanding , or comprehending me. for the most part. doubleplus good indeed spunky! Im tempted to ask you agatha how the mispelling of a word affects meaning and intent. But that would be nitpicking, as i understand the general position you are taking. I won't hold you to your choice of words.... "intent" and "meaning".

It wasn't too hard to figure you out,Eri. Trace often speaks of his lovely wife,Erin. But the real giveaway was being on stage.

Yeah, I guess people can figure me out really easy. The funny thing is if you saw us in person you never would have guessed it. At least that's what people tell me. I thought everyone would have figured it out when I said I was in Kansas City. Isn't it cool when your s/o talks about his lovely spouse even when you aren't around and won't know what he is saying to who?

I tried to read this thread again, a year to the day. It's like yesterday. No, this morning. Maybe next year I can read it all without feeling sick and teary.

I know I woke up nervous,turned on the t.v. started reading the paper trying to reassure myself that things were alright so far,watched the commerative services on t.v.,when they started playing the bagpipes I just lost it.Snot cried for about an hour, I'm not watching anymore t.v. today.

please DON'T watch TV today. its horrible. if you have to, at least watch comedy central or something. its all a bunch bullshit. wrong bad and more wrong. my paranoid friend kept H from school today. she didnt want him talkin to other kids about the event, yet she will have CNN on all day long. If anything he NEEDED to get out and play with friends to be normal and not be any more freaked out than he may already be. i think nico is going over there to paint with him and bury his "buried treasure" she made for him in the back yard.

This thread is a perfect reflection.

heh. i am such a stupid bitch.

I was cringing at some of my comments. How much can change in one year.....

Who was America's Greatest President? [2038 votes total] George Washington 1789-1797 (168) 8% John Adams 1797-1801 (7) 0% Thomas Jefferson 1801-1809 (90) 4% James Madison 1797-1801 (7) 0% James Monroe 1817-1825 (1) 0% John Quincy Adams 1825-1829 (4) 0% Andrew Jackson 1829-1837 (8) 0% Martin Van Buren 1837-1841 (3) 0% William Henry Harrison 1841-1841 (4) 0% John Tyler 1841-1845 (0) 0% James K. Polk 1845-1949 (9) 0% Zachary Taylor 1849-1850 (1) 0% Millard Fillmore 1850-1853 (3) 0% Franklin Pierce 1853-1857 (0) 0% James Buchanan 1857-1861 (3) 0% Abraham Lincoln 1861-1865 (327) 16% Andrew Johnson 1865-1869 (2) 0% Ulysses S. Grant 1869-1877 (4) 0% Rutherford B. Hayes 1877-1881 (2) 0% James A. Garfield 1881-1881 (4) 0% Chester Arthur 1881-1885 (1) 0% Grover Cleveland 1885-1889 (0) 0% Benjamin Harrison 1889-1893 (2) 0% Grover Cleveland 1893-1897 (2) 0% William McKinley 1897-1901 (4) 0% Theodore Roosevelt 1901-1909 (61) 3% William Taft 1909-1913 (2) 0% Woodrow Wilson 1913-1921 (7) 0% Warren G. Harding 1921-1923 (1) 0% Calvin Coolidge 1923-1929 (2) 0% Herbert Hoover 1929-1933 (2) 0% Franklin Delano Roosevelt 1933-1945 (219) 11% Harry S. Truman 1945-1953 (38) 2% Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953-1961 (18) 1% John F. Kennedy 1961-1963 (81) 4% Lyndon B. Johnson 1963-1969 (9) 0% Richard Nixon 1969-1974 (30) 1% Gerald Ford 1974-1977 (3) 0% Jimmy Carter 1977-1981 (14) 1% Ronald Reagan 1981-1989 (598) 29% George Bush 1989-1993 (60) 3% Bill Clinton 1993-present (237) 12% To keep this in perspective, I got these numbers off of www.republicans.org

A sad commentary on the state of US education in history. Reagan better than FDR, for crying out loud. That wasn't even that long ago. I cringe to think about the next poll like that with the Shrub on it.

So, you support allowing the Japs to bomb pearl so the US Citizens would cry havic and let loose the dogs of war? Or was it the New Deal?

there's no proof FDR "allowed" anything though it makes for a great argument. Id say there too often a riff between the dogs of war, and the masters up on the porch. Look at warmongers like Rumsfeld and Cheney vs Colin Powell. Who is to say the secretary of war didnt allow things to happen, to corner the president. I think he is most remembered and was re-elected primarily for his New Deal, bringing the country out of the Depression and expanding the infrastructure of this country.

i wonder what that riff would sound like. . . spunky -- japs?

There is too proof... And it points directly at FDR himself, not just cabinet members. The New Deal was the begining of the Socialization of the US. Our Constitution was based upon the beleifs that (1) it is morally wrong to use government to take money from a person to whom it belongs in order to give it to someone to whom it does not belong; (2) a person has the right to accumulate unlimited amounts of wealth and decide what to do with it; and (3) people have the right to engage in any peaceful enterprise and to travel and trade anywhere in the world. That is what it once meant to be an American, notwithstanding the tragic and ultimately costly exception of slavery. That is what it once meant to be free. Roosevelt's New Deal constituted a total rejection of that philosophy of freedom. We do live in a welfare state -- which now has the power to take care of you, school you, feed you, provide your health care and retirement, and equalize your wealth, and which purports to protect you from incompetent hairdressers, drug purveyors, and terrorists -- envelopes an iron fist that protects the interests of the welfare state. Your money that is taken from you, without your concent, is used to pay for not your medicare or retirement, but rather those that are on medicare or retirement now. You have no garauntees to that money.

"spunky -- japs?" Yeah, sorry about that...

trace i have no idea what you're talking about with 99% of that last post. The New Deal was about creating public works and putting people to work. It was about harvesting resources. The very industry you work for benefited considerably from the New Deal.

Spunk, cite your sources please, or I will. Also, dave's right -- "Japs" is a pretty offensive term nowadays. Might have been acceptable back in the 40's, but the war's long over.

kennedy higher than nixon, another point towards the sad state of american education.

"The New Deal was about creating public works and putting people to work. It was about harvesting resources. The very industry you work for benefited considerably from the New Deal." That is the very definition of Socialism

I did say it was wrong. Pretty sad when an abreviation is considered "offensive". You know what derrogratory slang word is never considered "offensive"? Redneck. I think that is a lot worse then just shortening a term.

My girlfriend Darleen is married to one of the sweetest guys I've ever met,he's from Vietnam,anyway for a while his mother lived with them and Darleen hated her,whenever she has his family members over for a holiday she calls it a gookfest,that tripped me out.

Hey. Let's not sully this thread with our petty ideological differences. This is the anniversary of 9/11. Anyone remember that "united we stand" idea?

"petty ideological differences" is what created this particular thread in the first place, tiggy

no. how does that go again? let's see, first you have to figure out what to unite as. . . oh, i give up.

trace.....what the fuck does ANY of your 3:22pm post mean?

this nicely sums up many of my feelings. cut-n-paste if interested http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,789978,00.html

Seems to me there is as much evidence that FDR let Pearl HArbor happen as there is that Bush II let 9/11 happen. not to mention that our ambassador to Iraq back in 91 told Saddam we had no problem with his little excursion south.

right the fuck on dave.

In October, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), prepared a memo for President Roosevelt's review. In that memo, McCollum advocated an "eight action plan" designed to take the United States into the war. These actions were: A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore. B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies [now Indonesia]. C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek. D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore. E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient. F. Keep the main strength of the US Fleet, now in the Pacific; in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands. G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for economic goods, particularly oil. H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire. Just prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, it was arranged that all shipping under control of Britain and her allies or under control of the US be rerouted such that the entire North Pacific was empty of ships. The effect of this would be to drastically diminish the chances of US forces being warned of the movements of the attacking Japanese carrier task force. At the behest of the administration, Admiral Kimmel and General Short were purposely denied access to intercepted secret Imperial Navy message traffic that gave plenty of advance warning about the attack. MacArthur and the naval commander in the Phillipines as well as a surprising number of other high-ranking naval officers at various locations were privy to the information. The evidence shows war with Japan was intentionally provoked. But you are right, "Seems to me there is as much evidence that FDR let Pearl HArbor happen as there is that Bush II let 9/11 happen. Bush was in office 8 & 1/2 MONTHS before 9/11. Jesus. And NO, THAT WAS NOT CUT AND PASTE. I bought "Day of Deceit by Stinnett so I could judge for myself if the information was accurate or not.

Oh, and the 3:22 post ment FDR was as big a traitor to the US as you could ever hope for to be president.

"ment FDR was as big a traitor to the US as you could ever hope for to be president" yeah assuming you are right. your assesment is awfully elementary to make such a drastic statement. You wanna tackle these again...for clarity? "(1) it is morally wrong to use government to take money from a person to whom it belongs in order to give it to someone to whom it does not belong; (2) a person has the right to accumulate unlimited amounts of wealth and decide what to do with it; and (3) people have the right to engage in any peaceful enterprise and to travel and trade anywhere in the world."