Read this. This, combined with what Trace posted about the economic agreement between the Taliban and China, is starting to scare me.

You have made me your human bomb Edna Yaghi I am the product of your tyranny. You have dissected the leftovers of my country into bits and pieces of shantytowns, ghettoes and concentrations camps. You have cut off mywater supply and left me thirsty while you, the Israelis, bathe in cooled pools not far from where I live. You have uprooted my trees and desecrated my fields making sure I have no way to sustain myself or those who depend on me. You have cut off medical supplies that treat the wounded, and at your checkpoints, you detain and humiliate Palestinians and prevent those who are in dire need of medical assistance to pass through causing my people, who are your victims, to die at your impromptu borders. You assassinate my freedom fighters while explaining to the world that you are merely defending your own squatters. You shoot to kill little children who in defiance and courage wield small stones in the name of liberty against you, the fiercely armed enemy. You torture the children and resistance fighters; you incarcerate and try to bribe or coerce my people into collaborating against one another. You bulldoze homes and you prevent me from earning a living. You kill me by remote control from your U.S.-made Apache helicopters, and your settlers who squat on what you have left me of my land throw firebombs into my dwellings and on my passageways, attack my children and womenfolk with guns and clubs and hate. You occupy my land and on my bloodstained hills station your tanks and armoured jeeps in order to shoot off one by one little children playing in the streets. You take over the Orient House, my one symbol of freedom that was donated by a man worth all Israelis put together, while at the same time you starve the orphans just across the street. You shoot out my water tanks and you kill off Palestinian servicemen even though at the time of your brutal massacres, these servicemen were patrolling their land or simply eating their last supper. You cut off my electricity so you can assassinate me more easily in the dank shadows of your dark treachery. You are cowards and you are afraid of little Palestinian children with stones. You never kill them single handedly. You roam in groups like packs of wild dogs and you are just as vicious if not more so. You leave me and my people without hope and when you have driven me into a corner and deprived me of all that is human, I react with anger and bitterness. I strap explosives onto my body and search for a place to detonate myself. Yes, I kill your civilians, but this is the price you have to pay for taking away my inalienable rights, the rights that all men are entitled to, for your demoniacal oppression of my people. It is really very simple. God created all men equal and no man better than any other. Yet, somehow you have made it your protocol that Jews are better than all others and that you have the right to come to my land committing rape and plunder yet expect me to thank you for doing so. Just the other day, a young boy was eating lunch. One of your settlers who came from America threw a firebomb into this boy’s house. His two brothers were killed immediately. But the one boy survived albeit horribly disfigured. His name is Amar Emeera. His scars have turned a once beautiful child into a grotesque being that does not even look human. What did this child do to go through life so horribly disfigured? You shoot babies point blank while swaddled in their parent’s arms in Palestinian cars going to weddings. You slay Palestinian children going to and from school and you slaughter Palestinian children when they fight your armies with their bare hands. One such child, Mohammed Abu Arrar was shot down and killed when he protested your occupation of his land. Palestinian relatives of the boy kissed his body laid out in his coffin before he was taken away to be buried in the Gaza Strip. You kill unarmed Palestinian fathers on their way to buy school supplies and books for their children. You have even run out of excuses for the atrocities you continue to perpetrate. You shell the homes of Palestinian families, instantly killing the occupants and then claim that the action was friendly fire from the Palestinians even though the homes were far removed from the scene of the battle and even though remnants of your American-made shells are scattered about the demolished homes of the innocent. You collectively punish 3 million Palestinians, half of whom are children who reside on what is left of their own land though you know full well that their only desire is to free themselves from your barbaric cruelty. You tell the world that you want peace yet at every corner, at every instance, you are as far from peace as the earth is from a different universe speeding in an opposite direction. You speak peace with the forked tongues of your warmongers and then pretend shock when finally a Palestinian human bomb blows himself up. You will only be free of the threat of human bombs when you seek a just and comprehensive peace and when you end your occupation of the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. - Palestine Times

salon dot snot who cares

WWIII, without much doubt

(What caused the bldgs. to collapse was the heat from the plane caused the steel beams holding up the top 1/4 to melt, consequently the floors collapsed/pancaked. If they hadn't, the alternative to pancaking is to break off and crush people for blocks and blocks away. The worlds most expensive book. $600 for "Web page making for idiots" Colin Powell is looking pissed right now on C-span while i was dealing with a leak on St. Charles yesterday bot the million dollar houses on either Boy, those lessons in "non-smirking" really paid off for Bush.) He looks like he'a about to cry again, so he put his reading glasses on, big round ones. Big closeup of John Breaux. Friday's National Prayer Service. Sell real expensive flags, If everybody had to buy $5,000 flags or else (every month), then we wouldn'thave a recession. Gotta go see C-Span . . . They're carrying Billy Graham into place. . . they even have a Muslim cleric. Bush is crying his ass off, his wife is whispering to him "get it together W, you call yourself a loving guy, who do you love, the dogs. . . ?"

did anyone catch Jerry Falwell on FoxNews? he stated his opinion on the matter, which is that this whole disaster has happened because US laws and culture tolerate gays and lesbians and offer them the freedom to be who they are, and they project a secular, sinful image of the US to the religious countries, who therefore want to destroy us. i am not making this up. carry on.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell said the terrorist attacks on the U.S. were "probably what we deserve." You heard right. Falwell made his remarks on "The 700 Club," the popular religious show on the Christian Broadcasting Network hosted by Pat Robertson. Robertson immediately said, "Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror." These aren't quotes taken out of context. Falwell and Robertson did not misspeak. These are their considered beliefs. You can see the video for yourself at CBN.com, and click on "Thursday Morning 700 Club" in the video section. Falwell said, "I fear...that this is only the beginning." He said what happened Tuesday would turn out to be "minuscule...if in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve." source: http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,311427-412,00.shtml

gotta love that Pat Robertson, he never fails to brighten my day.

Nice to know that gays in this country still don't even have enough political clout to get legally married........but can mysteriously serve as the catalyst for international acts of terrorism.

pat robertson may have a point. the arabic name for the world trade center actually means "two great big gay hard-ons."

Yesterday I went to Mass at the National Shrine in DC. I usually go there for Mass because it's real purdy. Anyway, I was a bit late, and when I got there every seat had been taken and most of the side chapels were nearly full and people were standing up all around the perimeter of the church. Turns out this had been designated the memorial Mass for those killed last week. The archbishop of DC gave the mass, the archbishop of the US military gave the sermon, the Secretary of State was there, there were TV cameramen on the wings, the full choir was out....it was pretty big deal. I had the urge to leave shortly after I got there, but dude, I thought, when will I get a chance to participate in something like this again? The sermon said nothing about anyone deserving this or about evil Islam or how we must repent now before being destroyed. The sermon was about loving God and loving each other. Nothing scary. The gospel had been about the prodigal son. And it occurred to me that in the New Testament, Jesus never says anything harsh to the poor sinners he meets. He eats with them and hangs out with them and heals them, etc. It's the Pharisees, the hypocritical religious leaders, he's stern with. So, like, how come scary people like Falwell don't notice this?

Perhaps because they're so busy being self-rightous?

we really shouldnt pay any attention to the likes of Falwell. Im sure the Advocate will do some blurb about this. Hell they cancelled a celebrity issue to do a "gay bomb heros" issue. Its pretty embarrassing actually. I mean we've got all the coverage we need. Gay, straight, black white... its so insignificant. They are reaching reaching reaching. Just like Falwell and everyone else.

I was reminded by the events of the past week of the Book of Revelations. And, the four horsemen of the Appocolips. I hope I spelled that right. I did glance over Revelations this week. It scared me again. I think I'll go back to the Cartoon Network for a while.

What about the Four Ponymen? War, Poverty Famine and (can't remember the 4th)

CHUPACABRA!

DEATH

I am putting this post here because the first thread is getting way to long.... Maybe what we should do (this is all retrospective now, because I fear it is too late) is BACK OFF and stop fuding these little disputes everywhere, let nature take it's course, and if the one left standing on the pile of shit turns out to be a pain in our side or ass, then we rub the whole damn thing out.

my church was packed on sunday. every mass was filled to overflowing. the pastor and i decided to sing "america the beautiful" as the final hymn at every mass. at the choir mass, i used "finlandia" as the opening hymn. you should have heard folks screaming out the words. people needed a venue in which they could simply feel better. the organist at the choir mass moved over to the piano during the offertory and performed an improvisation on "america". by the time he was finished, i was in tears. so were most of the choir. people are lost and trying to find something that will show them the way. i'm not sure what that is.

ah chupacabra, full of enthusiasm at a timw when everyone elses is beginning to flag. God bless you, may you continue to cheer us up with your irreverant goat sucking.

GOAT SUCKING IS SERIOUS.

It was my B-day yesterday,but at my age it's nothing I look forward to,and I really didn't care.My s/o always takes me out to eat,but I didn't want to go,I need to take a shower today,I haven't in 3 days,that's depression.I read On the Beach when I was in 5th grade,because I am so old,I remember bomb alerts in grade school,like getting under my desk would really help.I use to beg my Dad after that to build a bomb shelter,but he did,t want to and we didn't have the money anyway.Attorney General John Ashcroft says there may be more terroist assaults planned againts the U.S. I also read newspaper reports that satellite pictures of terrorist training camps outside Jalalabad in Afghanistan show dead animals on test ranges,which suggest militants there may have been experimating with various poisons.What if they use Anthrax? What if they use the smallpox virus? I'm scared shitless.

happy birthday, J.

you can be sure if they used any kind of chemical agent, they would be nuked off the fuckin planet

happy bithday J!!!!!!!! may nothing but brighter days be upon you!!!! I know its easy to come up with reasons why they won't but it takes strength and courage to find reasons that they will. Im confident you have that strength and courage.

Chemical warfare is scary stuff...Really scary stuff.

Happy birthday J. My Grandfather built a bomb shelter in the back yard. We still call it the family folley. It is still there. All damp and musty. Quite unpleasent. If you'd care to have a look I'm sure my Stepmother wouldn't mind. But, it's not something I recomend.

happy birthday j, i'd give you a bomb shelter but i think i'd rather not in hopes that you won't need one.

Remember that movie "Blast From the Past"? Now,that was a bomb shelter.I loved that movie. Happy,happy B-Day,J.Please,please come to New Orleans.If we haven't been nuked off the face of the earth by then,I am going to party,like I haven't since college.I think I need this badly.This has taken its toll on me.

Happy birthday, J! How is your baby grandson doing?

He is just a living doll,he has 3 bottom teeth and his top ones are popping out,he has hair,but it's so fine and light that it really doesn't show up much,I think I mentioned before that it looks like he's a redhead.He's already crawling and sitting up and has the sweetest personality,his smiles just melt my heart,he's vocalizing now too.I saw Jonathon Sun. and he drew me a beautiful picture of a monkey surfing in the ocean and a friendly alligator watching him,he is so talented,and beautiful.He has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen on anyone.

Happy birthday J!! Well Chupacabra, i guess for you it must be serious, i suppose someone has to take controll of the whole goat population thing.

wasnt Mario Buente or however it is spelt the goat sucker?

alex and chupacabra, sitting in a tree....

Thanks you all ,but like I said at my age,I have no use for a birthday except that I lived another year.I am major paranoid,scared,sick,I feel violated on such a scale,bad enough to pass on a lobster dinner.This may end up to be a Holy war.I saw a news report that said there are certain songs that the radio won't play now,our world will never be the same.I'm just so sad.

Here is something I found through Worldnetdaily: http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14924

It already is a holy war, on both sides. Some local morning radio show hosts here in Birmingham, Rick and Bubba, normally a tad conservative, have gone off the deep end since the attack. They said this morning that "there's a religious revolution going on now." They're all ready to seperate the sheep from the goats, apparently. I don't know how long it'll last, but maybe it's time to get some mountain property in Sweden.

we have our "Shit hits the fan" plan. We go with another couple, C and L who live around the corner from us, good friends, and their two children M & H, we head to C's dad's property, north of Santa Barbara. We have tents and can camp if need be. Then we figure it out. If need be, we'll all share a house further up, in the middle of nowhere in Northern CA, away from any targets of interest. Then, worst case scenario, we will find some way to book passage to Australia or NZ. I have friends in both places that have extended their assistance. Mostly with their wine collections, but thats a good starting point.

I'm a bit calmer since nothing happened on Sat.,I must be really patriotic or really stupid, I pledged our $600.00 rebate check we just got to the tribute to heroes fund.I want so badly to help.

"It is certain that, if someone has done great harm to society, and there is a danger that if he remains free he may be able to do it again, you have the right to apply self-defense for the society which you lead, even though the means you may choose may be aggressive," said Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the pope's chief spokesman, in an exclusive interview with Reuters. . The pope himself also struck a slightly different tone Monday in remarks about Islam. . He told a group of artists, scientists and teachers in the Kazakh capital that, while the Catholic Church respects the religion, it rejects fanatics and terrorists who "profane the name of God and disfigure the true image of man." . Pope John Paul's views on the developing world crisis are significant, not only because he leads the world's 1 billion Roman Catholics, but because people of many faiths look to him as a moral compass. . His trip to this predominately Muslim nation between Russia and China was a fresh illustration of his popularity. The 81-year-old pontiff drew a crowd of 20,000 to an open-air Mass on Sunday in a country where Catholics compose less than 2 percent of the population. . Mr. Navarro-Valls' comments surprised Vatican observers because he rarely breaks ground on sensitive topics in private interviews, especially with the pope nearby and addressing the same topic. . "The pope understands the difficulties of a political leader who has to respond to such issues," said Mr. Navarro-Valls. "Sometimes it is more prudent to act rather than to be passive. In this sense, the pope is not a pacifist because one must remember that in the name of peace even some horrible injustices can be carried out." . The threat of war has dominated the pope's trip to this vast Central Asian nation, whose southern border lies just a few hundred miles from Afghanistan. . The pontiff is scheduled to leave Kazakhstan on Tuesday for a three-day visit to Armenia. ASTANA, Kazakhstan In what appears to be a shift, a top Vatican aide said Monday that Pope John Paul II understands the United States might need to resort to force against terrorists to protect its people from further harm. . The aide described the Vatican's views at the end of a three-day visit in which the pope repeatedly called on the world to maintain peace. His statement turned the pope's pacifist message on its head and seemed to dovetail with U.S. plans for a military response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. . "It is certain that, if someone has done great harm to society, and there is a danger that if he remains free he may be able to do it again, you have the right to apply self-defense for the society which you lead, even though the means you may choose may be aggressive," said Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the pope's chief spokesman, in an exclusive interview with Reuters.

yeah, the pope's full of great advice. like not practicing birth control in overpopulated, underdeveloped countries. fucking old fool.

he's only doing his job.

which is what, shortening, via starvation and disease, the faithful's lives thereby hastening their advent into glorious heaven? no, his real job is to secure cash for his organization. if life was so fucking precious, every catholic would have a popemobile. you don't fool me, you fucking old assdrip. none of you and your ilk do. come here so i can bitchslap you.

sorry, joe, that was a poorly executed switch from 3rd to 2nd person. i do it all the time. i wasn't necessarily calling you, personally, an assdrip or offering you a bitchslap.

What exactly does the pope's blessing and sanctioning of military actions mean to you trace?

Well while waiting for Trace's response,I'd like to say a few words about the Pope. Why don't they let that poor man retire? You can tell he's in constant pain and can hardly walk,why can't they get another Pope now?

he has to choose to step down, and he chooses not to. i think the alternative is a vote by the cardinals to replace him.

Why would he want to step down?He's in charge of that dandy machine,that puts out blue smoke,when he makes a decision.

i don't know, folks. it's hard to be catholic. i have watched a documentary about him and it was interesting to see him as a regular, plain vanilla parish priest. he was pretty cool. in the 1940's when it was really dangerous to be catholic in poland, he took his parishioners out on camping and canoeing trips, celebrated mass in the woods, etc. he was an intellectual. he's pope for life. i don't agree with everything he does, but he really wants to make sure that we all get to heaven, whatever that is.

But I think I remember that he did want to step down,and the powers that be wouldn't let him.

WASHINGTON — The long-held policy of "constructive engagement" with China has turned destructive for the United States, a new report by a congressionally appointed commission insists. According to the U.S.-China Security Review Commission appointed by Congress in October 2000, the Chinese government has taken advantage of American friendliness to become a bigger threat than ever. "It needs to be corrected, particularly today as China grows in economic and military strength, and the United States plays a very substantial role in contributing to that rise in military and economic strength," said C. Richard D'Amato, chairman of the U.S.-China Security Review Commission. The commission, organized to "monitor, investigate and report to Congress on the national security impacts of the bilateral trade and economic relationship between the U.S. and China," concluded that "U.S. policy toward China has lacked consistency and depth and has often been driven by narrow commercial interests, specific human rights issues or particular military and security concerns." Among the specifics, the report says China currently has the ability to hit the U.S. mainland with intercontinental ballistic missiles. Experts say the Chinese, who are rapidly increasing their arsenal, can hit as far inland as Mississippi. "We are concerned when we see constant rhetorical attacks on the United States, constant warnings to the United States, that if push comes to shove, China is perfectly happy to fight a war against us, and then to see a strategic doctrine from the Chinese military that lays out the ways in which they propose to win that war. That's very bothersome. You'd have to be an idiot not to take that seriously," said Michael Ledeen, vice chairman of the panel. Equally disconcerting to the commission is that as China develops this technology it sells it, often to terror-sponsor states like Iraq and Iran. The research also shows that Beijing is one of the world's leading sources of ballistic missiles and nuclear materials to rogue governments, along with technology and components for weapons of mass destruction. The proliferation comes amidst broken pledges to the United States that it would stop such proliferation. The 12-person panel said much of the engagement policy has been pushed at the presidential level ever since former President Richard Nixon renewed relations with Beijing three decades ago. But they also believe that Congress has dropped the ball. "Congress has, by and large, let this thing go and tended to assume the best hypotheses rather than facing the worst hypotheses, and we think that everyone will be better served if Congress gets more engaged," Ledeen said. -----I know this thread is old, but what did I tell you about China back in September????--------

Look at the facts: 1. US economy is in the shitter. 2. US Military spread very thin as is, and is contimplating a 250k troop attack against Iraq. 3. US spent untold BILLIONS on technology, intelligence, and defense for "Cold War" with Russia & Cuba. 4. US has willingly, voluntarily destroyed billions of dollars worth of arms and military complexes in the last 3 decades, and reduced spending on Defense and Intelligence. 5. US has changed laws to make "technology exchange" easier with China. We are a prime target right now for a well armed, financed, motivated aggressor. We are really in serious trouble here, and I do not beleive China would hesitate to "push the red button". With the US gone, the rest of the world may be easy pickings.

first off...i think some of this is taken wayyy too far. "1. US economy is in the shitter." This is overstated. The economy has been a bloated fart bomb in our bowels for years. We are at similar levels as compared to 1997, was the economy in the shitter then? Unemployement is still fairly low, it could be better, but we arent in the shitter. Russia is on the fast track to becoming the worlds largest arms dealer. where do you think Saddam got his SCUDS? Where do you think China got it subs? hasnt the US made promises to end proliferation and balked? jesus, wasnt it Bush that just pulled us out of the Anti Ballistic Missle Treaty? China wouldnt hesitate to push the red button because they have nothing to loose. Despite what your posts say, China is still a very underfinanced, poorly equipped and outdated army. Their planes, helicopters, ships and soldiers compare to ours of 50s and 60s. Don't be fooled and stop spreading paranoia. i actually had the thought yesterday of starting a thread of silly predictions like this. I specifically recall nate's "we'll be at war with China in 5 years". seeing as how many of us have been here for going on 5 years, assuming this places exists in 5 years, id love to come back to that thread and say "wtf?" In short China is doing nothing we havent done in the past and to act all shocked and paranoid about it is, in my mind, a new breed of red scare. As China develops into a super power comparable of Cold War Soviet Union they will have more and more to loose.

Which sand box have you chosen to bury your head in? And to say we have balked is really surprising. Really? We have balked on disposing our nuclear arms? We are still manufacturing them, building silos and populating them with ICBM's? How many OSCAR's are still around? the stated reason for resending the test ban treaty is to test a missle defense system. These tests are well documented. At least we publically said we are withdrawing from the treaty, rather then continue with the tests in violation of that treaty. The pictures you often paint of Bush and Co suggest he would not have, despite the usual "we're the shittiest people on earth"'s objections, retracked from that treaty. We would be doing black tests. I am surprised at your response. But, I guess I should not be. When are you running for congress? You know much more, evidently, then the U.S.-China Security Review Commission.

China wants to be a superpower, and everything they do is consistent with the actions of a rising superpower.

Trace if you were bright enought to pay attention you would read the fine print of many of the arms reduction treaties over the years were merely symbolic as they usually only required that we point our missles away from the Soviet Union or put them in storage readily accessable and most definitely not decommissioned. According to Janes there are about 22 OSCAR class subs in the Russian fleet still active. More than half were commissioned after 1990 even as late as 1997. Only two have been decomissioned in the last 10 years. One of them was the Kursk. Whats your point in that? Trace im not claiming to know much more, im just claiming to have a much more objective mind than you thats all. Have you ever looked over a comparison of our Air Force vs theirs? How about naval capacity? They may have a billion man army, but they are poorly equipped. I read this last week about the Chinese touting two new airforce bases with an unprecedented press tour and they were showing off their J7s. Their hunks of crap comparable with Soviet era Mig 21s. They may have hundreds of them but against a fleet of f-18s or even the f22s if they build them the J7s would drop like flys. The only thing they have thats worth of shit is about 50-100 Soviet Su-27s which are comparable to the American f-15. You want some interesting reading Trace...give this a go, it compares the military of China to that of Tawain. See exactly what China has at their disposal and rest at ease.

i think that page lends credibility to trace's argument, patty.

how do you see that? when you consider that Tawain's military is a smorgas borg of materials aquired from Europe, Israel and the US they give up quite a fight all things considered. As you go through the various weapons, notably aircraft and missles, nearly 100% of US made weapons have the advantage over the PLAAF weapons. Just go through a few of the categories and see how many times you see "Advantage ROC" versus "Advantage PLA". Its quite impressive. Ok, then when you see the ROC has an advantage, how often is it an American made weapon? Moreover look at some of the shitty crap europe pawns off on them...of course China would have the advantage, but take what you see there and infer it to US armaments and we have a clear advantage over the Chinese military. Just about every single weapon we have sold them has the advantage over a comparable Chinese weapon.

According to an August 1999 policy document published by the People's Liberation Army Office of the Central Military Command, "unlike Iraq and Yugoslavia, China is not only a big country, but also possesses a nuclear arsenal that has long since been incorporated into state warfare system and play a real role in our national defense." "In comparison with the U.S. nuclear arsenal, our disadvantage is mainly numeric, which in real wars the qualitative gap will be reflected only as different requirement of strategic theory," THAT IS A QUOTE FROM A PLA Military document. "In terms of deterrence, there is not any difference in practical value. So far we have built up the capability for the second and third nuclear strikes and are fairly confident in fighting a nuclear war. The PCC [communist Party Central Committee] has decided to pass though formal channels this message to the top leaders in the U.S." China also has recently tested a new long-range missile capable of reaching America, the DF-31. The DF-31 is capable of delivering a single multi-megaton H-bomb or up to three 90-kiloton nuclear bombs. The most recent DF-31 test took place early in 2001, and some Pentagon analysts expect the PLA Second Artillery began active deployment of DF-31 units early this year. 1 of these bombs could vaporize a city the size of LA, or NY. If we were hit with enough at once, are they going to need much more capability then, say a crop duster? Here is the nuclear arsenal today: DONG FENG 11 TACTICAL MISSILE RANGE - 186 MILES WARHEAD - 10 KILOTON TACTICAL NUCLEAR (1000 KG) 2,200 POUND CONVENTIONAL ENGINE - SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - STRAP DOWN INERTIAL C.E.P. - LESS THAN 200 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = 150 PAKISTAN = 34 That one is no big deal, they would have to be at least 180 miles off eastern sea-board to hit NYC or 180 miles off west coast to hit LA or SF. I will have to dig around about thier subs later... DONG FENG 15 TACTICAL MISSLE WARHEAD - 1,100 LB. (500 KG) CHEMICAL, NUCLEAR OR CONVENTIONAL 10 KT. NEUTRON (ENHANCED RADIATION) WEAPON 20 KT. TACTICAL NUCLEAR WARHEAD RANGE - 370 MILES (600 KM) DIAMETER - 3.3 FEET (1 METER) LENGTH - 30 FEET (9.1 METERS) WEIGHT - 13,700 POUNDS (6,200 KG) ENGINE - SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - STRAP DOWN INERTIAL GPS SUPPLIED BY ROCKWELL POSSIBLE FOLLOW ON SAR RADAR ACTIVE TARGETING C.E.P. - LESS THAN 100 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = 350 SYRIA = 20 DONG FENG 21 IRBM RANGE - 1,200 MILES WARHEAD - SINGLE 1 MEGATON THERMONUCLEAR NEW X VERSION WITH 250 KILOTON NUCLEAR ENGINE - TWO STAGE SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - INERTIAL/FIBER OPTIC/GPS NEW X VERSION ACTIVE RADAR IMAGING MARV C.E.P. - LESS THAN 200 METERS NEW X VERSION ACCURACY RATED AT 10 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = 90 RANGE - 1,200 MILES WARHEAD - SINGLE 1 MEGATON THERMONUCLEAR ENGINE - TWO STAGE SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - INERTIAL/FIBER OPTIC/GPS C.E.P. - LESS THAN 200 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = 16 DONG FENG 25 IRBM RANGE - 1,500 MILES WARHEAD - THREE 250 KILOTON NUCLEAR ENGINE - TWO STAGE SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - INERTIAL/FIBER OPTIC C.E.P. - LESS THAN 10 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED - CHINA = 10 RANGE - 7,500 MILES WARHEAD - SINGLE 2.5 MEGATON THERMONUCLEAR OR THREE 90 KILOTON NUCLEAR ENGINE - THREE STAGE SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - INERTIAL/FIBER OPTIC C.E.P. - LESS THAN 300 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = (DEVELOPMENT) The Julang 2 missile was successfully tested by the PLA Navy in Jan. 2001 and a successful test of the undersea launch system was conducted in October 2001. This system is planned for installation on the Type 94 SLBM submarine currently under construction at Huludao. Each PLA Navy "boomer" is designed to carry 16 JL-2 missiles in a sail like configuration similar to Russian designed Delta class boats. The first JL-2 armed Type 94 is expected to be operational in 2002. DONG FENG 31 ICBM RANGE - 7,500 MILES WARHEAD - SINGLE 2.5 MEGATON THERMONUCLEAR OR THREE 90 KILOTON NUCLEAR ENGINE - THREE STAGE SOLID PROPELLANT GUIDANCE - INERTIAL/FIBER OPTIC C.E.P. - LESS THAN 300 METERS NUMBER DEPLOYED CHINA = (DEVELOPMENT) The new Dong Feng (EAST WIND) 31 missile performed flawlessly during its first test flight. The DF-31 can reach any city in America and is armed with three nuclear warheads. The DF-31 has Clinton-supplied guidance, nuclear warhead, nose cone and solid rocket engine technologies. During the visit to China of General Henry Shelton, the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, and just a few days prior to the American presidential election, Beijing successfully flight tested its new DF-31 inter-continental ballistic missile, reports Bill Gertz in the Washington Times. Defense analysts say the timing of the test was a deliberate political signal to the United States and its allies. During Shelton's visit, Chinese officials repeated Beijing's opposition to US defensive arms sales to Taiwan. The DF-31 test missile utilized several decoy warheads, intended to defeat US missile defenses. The CIA reported last year that China has at least 13 nuclear-capable ICBMs pointed at the United States. The DF-31 is equipped with many technologies stolen or bought from America during Clinton's term. The DF-31 success was so spectacular that the the PLA 2nd Artillery will deploy 20 missiles by the end of 2002. The Chinese DF-31 is a road mobile, nuclear tipped SCUD like missile, that is nearly impossible to find, much less destroy. It is intended to counter the USAF B-2 bomber in a "limited" nuclear war scenario where China and the U.S. would only kill a few million people on each side. If deployed in large numbers, the DF-31 could pose a significant first strike theat against stationary military targets inside the U.S. homeland, such as the MX missile fields and the single B-2 bomber base. I could keep going, but I will stop for now. You are clearly correct. Nothing to worry about.

Trace. big fucking deal. we have all of these capabilities at hand as well. Russia has them as well. why now are you getting all paranoid? There is nothing more to worry about here than there has been in the last 50 years. China will say its comfortable fighting a nuclear war just as I would expect our Defense Department to say. God damn it if you have a gun you better be ready to use it. As sem succintly said, they are doing everything typical of a rising super power, nothing we havent done ourselves. Nothing the former Soviet Union didnt do. There is enough deterrance to go around. China is assured mass destruction just like the Soviets were. Whats your fear? That China is more "rogue" than the former Soviet Union? If thats your basis for this new fear....pffffft please, read a history book. Life in communist Soviet Union was probably just as repressive if not worse than life in modern day China. A halfwit could have seen this coming since the day the atom bomb was made man. Pop culture is our greatest weapon and export.

my fear is that we are more "rogue" than any other nation in modern times, and that at some point the rest of the world will get tired of our bullshit. china is currently the nation most capable of confronting us. will they win? who knows. we definitely have some advantages, but they do to. for one, a hell of a lot more people. we don't have a clear, guarenteed win. no way. if china were to team up with russia and iraq, we'd have a battle on our hands. even if it is just china v. the USA, we're fucked. we might destroy china, but it would take a few subs off the eastern seaboard to take out NY and DC, and then ICBMs from mainland china to take out LA, SF, Seattle, Chicago.. whatever they want. the US economy is gone in a flash of light and heat.

I see everyone's still jammin'--- ----How's life?

(Of course, I'm gonna say "hello" on the most paranoid thread I can find)

My fear? My fear? I was not talking about my fear. I was speaking to the report that was given to Congress today. You want to know what my fear is? Not today. Not tomorrow, but within the next decade, people our age, who mostly grew up durring the end of the cold war, and was educated durring the clinton era, and even in college today. My fear is that they will react the same way as you do. Because they are being taught that we, Americans, are the scurge of the earth. We have no ideals and no morals and no values that are worth perserving. We just run around and oppress everyone. You do not think that kind "blame America First" is being spoon fed in most of our major colleges today? The Department of Defense MUST BE, by it's very nature and mission in life, be VERY PARANOID. It is thier JOB. Be paranoid. Be vigilint. Be ready to DEFEND against any threat that might arise. If they took the 'pffffffff" attitude you displayed here today, towards something this large that could very much threaten us, what then? It is a real threat. China is different then russia. For one thing, there are MILLIONS more in China then in Russia. They have been very isolationist for centuries. Sure, they opened up and put up a horse and pony show a few weeks ago, but every thing was very carefully controlled. Everything that was seen and reported was exactly what they wanted to have seen and reported. Get a grip. I am not telling you to run and build a bomb cellar. It wont protect you anyway. Just be realistic

OUr bullshit? Yes. Bullshit. Making sure we protect our ass. Bullshit. Making sure our oil supply is secure. Bullshit. What the fuck is wrong with being the biggest guy on the block with the biggest stick? You can still do whatever you want, just make sure we get what we need, or we are gonna mess with you. Pride? I have noticed that being proud of being a part of anything has been potrayed here wrong. If you are a straight white male that is. Shame shame on you! You nast white straight male! You should run around with your back slouched and shoulders slumped because you are the evil doer! Shame on you for having BALLS! Shame on you for standing up and saying HEY, I WANT TO BE THE BIGGEST AND BADDEST ON THE BLOCK! I WANT THE BIGGEST STICK! THAT WAY, IF YOU TRY TO TAKE MY SHIT, OR HURT MY KIDS, I CAN KNOCK YOU ON YOUR ASS! Shame on nature. It should repeal the "Survival of the fittest" law. Who the fuck does the lion think he is, calling himself the king of the jungle? Just because he is faster? Stronger? Shame shame. By the way, this does not, in any way, suggest that I think the white male is in any way equal or better then the lion or superior to any race or creed or gender or whatever. If men had to have babies, civilization would have died a long time ago. I have seen many white men that make me sick with their laziness and sick attitude. It is just that, for what ever reason, there is no lobbiest for white straight males in the world. That I know of.....

ugh. I am ready to throw in the towel here. I dunno anymore.

trace. get a grip when you make silly statements like this you express fear. Psychology 101: "We are a prime target right now for a well armed, financed, motivated aggressor." China is not an aggressor, nor are they well financed. "We are really in serious trouble here, and I do not beleive China would hesitate to "push the red button". Yes they would. Pushing the button would assure their own self destruction. If you don't believe we would resond 10fold than your arent the kind of NSA, DofD employee I want to be paying for. "With the US gone, the rest of the world may be easy pickings." With us gone the world economy tanks, as well as China's. These are baseless and paranoid, i.e. FEAR. "and was educated durring the clinton era, and even in college today." You just had to insert Clinton in there didnt you? (can you hear me laughing) If i didnt know better Id say you secretly pull your monkey to him every night. If you are naive to think that 8 years of Clinton after 12 years of Bush/Reagan affected our culture THAT much...well...you sit in your bunker and wait it out. If you think our higher education systems are that malleable, then your a retard. The Department of Defense can be paranoid all it wants but we dont shape public policy after their whims. They are only one part of the equation. There's the president, the state department, national security, treasury, and congress to name a few. OF COURSE everything was controlled at the two new airbase showings last week. We do the same thing. MY POINT WAS the (60s era) fighter jets they chose to display trace. If thats what they show at a controlled public display, their best and brightest, what do you think they have at all the other bases? What do we show at our airbase shows here in the US? Stealth fighters, f-22 super jets that defy physics, super bombers that can circle the globe with nuclear weapons (b2)? Do you see the difference? I would tend to side with nate that continued American isolationism and unilateralism could spell trouble for the US, say in 20 years. We just can continue to ignore the rest of the world, piss away our Constitution and thwart international matters, be it over the World Court, environment, AIDS, Israel/Palestine, Iraq or whatever. If they are patient enough we could cave in on our doing by nibbling at our very founding, such as has been done since 9/11. Trace id like to think you give us the credit that no one is blindly "blaming America first". I swear you seem to suck this Rush Limbaugh shit up your ass and puff so much rectal nonsense with it. and how this leads to white male opression...if i could show you the confused look on my face i would. Trace have you ever been to china? I personally havent but my wife has had the pleasure of going a couple of times. Its a very very very POOR country. Yes they may have a huge population but its so damned poor. As I said pop culture is our best import, why do you think Chinse citizens risk their lives in containers on freightliners for weeks on end to get a shot at living here? They get a taste of imported pop culture, understand the way we live and are willing to risk their lives for it. The beauty of America is, if you dont like it, leave, 'heres your boarding pass thank you come again!'

Oh no. Look out. Patty used the word retard again. Do you still get yelled at for using that word here or is it OK now?

In China, 20 million people still live in caves. I can't back that up, i just heard from someone. And I would like to point out the difference between blaming america first and owning up to our mistakes, spunky. or do you think that as a social-political entity, america has made no mistakes? I would also like to point out that there is a difference between having a big stick and being the biggest guy and asking people not to mess with you, and having a big stick and being the biggest guy and pushing around smaller guys with smaller sitcks because so far, you've gotten away with it. I would furthermore like to say hello to Pug, and thank god this place has gotten lively again.

"And I would like to point out the difference between blaming america first and owning up to our mistakes, spunky. or do you think that as a social-political entity, america has made no mistakes?" Absolutely not. I think that goes without saying. Just surfing around, I found this: " The third point I want to make is that offense always wins first. Ever since the first person walked out of a cave with a club and before people figured out you could put sticks together and stretch an animal skin over it and make it a shield, the people who take up arms win first, and then sooner or later, hopefully sooner, decent people get together and figure out how to defend themselves. When we were born, people thought there would never be a way to defend against continuing nuclear war and we would exterminate ourselves and we found the only known defense, which was mutually assured destruction, but it worked, and no bomb was ever dropped again after Hiroshima and Nagasaki." I am not going to say who said this, but In case you did not know who said it right off the bat, I got it there.

"China is not an aggressor, nor are they well financed." In March, China announced a 17.6 percent increase, or $3 billion, in defense spending, which amounted to a total of $65 billion. Over the last decade, the Pentagon report said, China bought an average of $1 billion of weapons from Russia alone. Since 1999, the figure has risen to $2 billion a year. Beijing has purchased weapons from other republics of the former Soviet Union as well as European states. China's People's Liberation Army has focused on obtaining command and control systems for its air, sea and ground operations aimed at Taiwan. This has included the procurement of unmanned aerial vehicles and airborne early warning aircraft. China is investing considerably in the development of UAVs (un-manned assult vehicles). China already has a number of short-range and longer-range UAVs in its inventory for reconnaissance, surveillance, and electronic warfare roles. Research efforts also are underway across a range of UAV technologies with several developmental UAV programs underway related to reconnaissance, surveillance, communications, and EW. There is nothing that China is doing that we have not done, as far as weapons research and military spending goes. I just point this information out so that I can defend myself a little. For being a retard, that is.

"Its a very very very POOR country."

trace, the Clinton quote supports exactly what ive been saying. Pay attention to the last portion of it. Well done, you've managed to support my opinion with a Clinton quote. In the first portion, he is referring to offense in the context of terrorism, not a global super power to be such as China. Trace according to Center for Defense Informations 2001-2002 Military Almanac (page 42-45 In 2001 we spent 484 billion on military and military related matters, including space developement for military,international peacekeeping, foreign military aid and veterans benefits. Its expected to be around 518 billion this year. We have spent an average of 250-350 billion every year since 1947!!! In dollars per capita, we are out spending china by stellar proportions. Naturally China's budget is up. They were only recently accepted into the WTO, thanks to Clinton, who thought they can be diffused as a threat through western commerical influence. Some say this was part of the downfall of the soviet union...maybe? Also, 10 years ago China reclaimed Hong Kong. Another great source of western monies. If they bring Tawain back in the fold, which i suspect they will do, without war, you could expect those monies with Tawain's western capitol to further its military budgets. Come on spunk, to think the Clinton years have some how brainwashed or pacified our higher education system is a retarded notion, surely you can see that. You can't possibly believe that hogwash.

Patrick, read my last entry again please. I was actually impressed by the part of the speech i posted. This was the one that most conservatives and "right-wingers" have tried to say he was blaming the U.S. history of slavery and "stealing land from the natives" as the cause of 9/11. I disagree with that assumption. However, if I were to just read the quote I posted, it would tell me that WE are not the offense here. Not withstanding any forthcoming pontification from you about how the US is an oppressive force across the globe we were actually the ones that made the first move, it was US Buildings that were hit on september 11. Now were forced to lauch a Counter-Offensive to kill them where they live, because the original offense was killed in the first strike. Did you even read that crap that was posted here a few months ago? They blame us for Isreal, sure. I can under stand that. But, also, we are satan because we let people ***gasp*** choose their own religion, if any. This pop-culture you say people are trying to kill themselves over to have, is part of the motivation of hate for the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen , the Harkat-ul-Jehad-al-Islami, the Lashkar-e-Toiba, and the Jaish-e-Mohammad (Factions that contribute to Al-Queda) have targeted us for. Finally, if China is a very very very poor country, then maybe they should spend part of that 65 bil a year on something else. Your version of what the Military is like over there is flat out wrong. Period. Did you read anything I wrote? Does it sound like they are stuck flying airplanes from the 60's? Does it sound like they are not AGRESSORS? If you still think they are not agressive, please pass that information on to Tiawan. They would love to hear it. What we spend on our defense has nothing to do with what they spend. NOTHING. That is irrelevent crap. Oh, and what the hell is wrong with you? How long has it been since you have been to college? I don't even think I will bother explaining that to you.

Trace being an "aggressor" to a province that declared independence decades ago is different than a threat directly made to the US. Do you think the US would let Puerto Rico act as Tawain has? Sure they are flexing their muscles there, just like we are flexing our muscles elsewhere, but Taiwain is not an independent state and never has been in China's eyes. Read a history book. Its not like they are putting military forces in Cuba or North Korea. (note we have forces in Japan, Phillipines, and now the sub-continent of south Asia. In terms of us vs. them, who could you call the aggressor) Their actions along the Tawain straight do not make them an aggressor any more than the US. "Finally, if China is a very very very poor country, then maybe they should spend part of that 65 bil a year on something else." TRACE!!! Wake UP! maybe they should spend their money on something else, but they are a totalitarian, oppressive regime. Maybe N.Korea should spend its money on something else other than fortifying its military, but it doesnt, because its not a free country in which people can speak out and vote on these matters. This does not negate the fact that China is a very poor country. Comparing their military budget to ours IS relative because you seem to think they are "well financed" when in fact they arent. They are poorly financed which is WHY their people starve. If you looked at their military budget per soldier it would pale in comparison to ours. How many different angles must this be presented to you to get through your skull? Less money spread over greater numbers = less money per individual. Compared to ours, they are a poorly financed army! Trace it was only 3 years ago they aquired AWACS technology. Technology that we have been using since Vietnam. They only recently aquired nuclear powered submarines from Russia, technology we have had since the late 50s. Look at their aircraft. Since most military professionals will agree that since WW2 airpower reigns supreme, its a good indicator to judge an army by its airpower. Until they got the AWACS from Israel their airforce could only serve as a defensive force. having AWACS allows them to be offensive. Other than 100 or so Russian made SU-27s their airforce is agin, out dated and pathetic. Trace if their military is so well financed how come they have yet to put a man in space? How come they are just now aquiring technology to send a missle half way around the world with nuclear capabilities? Connect the dots man. I graduated highschool in 93, I was in college in 94 and part of 95. I returned to college in 99 and 2000. I was in college in the Clinton years taking political science, sociology, architecture, religious studies etc. Please don't explain it to me because i can assume its some nonsensical bullshit. Admit it, your assesment that they are a "well financed, aggressor ready to use the button" is a paranoid over-statement.

Dept Employees FY 03 Budget (bil) Per Citizen % Agriculture 131,385 $76,600,000,000.00 $277.54 3.64% Commerce 37,000 $5,500,000,000.00 $19.93 0.26% Defense 2,967,750 $330,600,000,000.00 $1,197.83 15.71% Education 4,710 $47,600,000,000.00 $172.46 2.26% Energy 115,000 $19,100,000,000.00 $69.20 0.91% Health 65,000 $459,400,000,000.00 $1,664.49 21.83% HUD 10,300 $30,900,000,000.00 $111.96 1.47% Interior 69,718 $10,300,000,000.00 $37.32 0.49% Justice 129,679 $23,100,000,000.00 $83.70 1.10% Labor 17,432 $58,600,000,000.00 $212.32 2.78% State 28,967 $15,900,000,000.00 $57.61 0.76% Transportation 118,447 $60,800,000,000.00 $220.29 2.89% Treasury 150,532 $382,600,000,000.00 $1,386.23 18.18% VA 207,028 $51,500,000,000.00 $186.59 2.45% Corps of Eng. 24,800 $5,000,000,000.00 $18.12 0.24% EPA 17,645 $7,800,000,000.00 $28.26 0.37% FEMA 5,009 $5,800,000,000.00 $21.01 0.28% NASA 159,005 $14,500,000,000.00 $52.54 0.69% NSF 1,204 $4,600,000,000.00 $16.67 0.22% Small Business 3,026 $1,100,000,000.00 $3.99 0.05% Smithsonian 4,560 $548,000,000.00 $1.99 0.03% SSA 63,464 $492,700,000,000.00 $1,785.14 23.41% Total 4,331,661 Employees, $7,625.17 per citizen I built an excel spread sheet and converted it to HTML. It will be easier to read. I will upload it when I get home.

hey, i pay more than that in taxes each year.

Here it is.

i still pay more than that in taxes each year. i want to know who's not holding up their side of the deal. they shouldn't be able to benefit from health or treasury or defense. fucking lazy poor people.

Nate, Stop trying to pick fights...:-) I gotta check my numbers from last year. I think it would be interesting to see how much the common person contributes. You would add fed, social security and medicare/medicaid together, then subtract any refund to find out how much you contribute anually. How close to the $7,200 do you think people actually pay? The other thing is, it is $7200 per person. If you are 2 months old or 45 and making $5,000,000 a year, it is still 7200.