It will start within 24 hours

so what is it?

It has begun. Peace be with us all.

well, if they hired trace to cry the apocalypse, i doubt there will be peace with us all. ``We are beginning another front in our war against terrorism so freedom can prevail over fear,'' i'm afraid. with every step of our "war" i'm more afraid. someone, quickly, define terrorism. give us a litmus that we can hold up any suspected terrorist and know for sure if they are terrorists or not. quickly, a definition without vague terms. without room for moral interpretation.

We are bombing Afghanistan. Everybody happy now?

now we see how quickly they will retaliate on us soil.

This is scary stuff. If they attack on US soil, where would the most likely place be? Is there even a most likely place? Why are we bombing Kabul? Is that where the US thinks Osama Bin Laden is, or are we just trying to punish the Taliban? What do you think Osama Bin Laden will do? If he does die, won't there be other people who thinks like he does? I'm just scared and I really haven't kept up with this whole thing b/c I am scared, but being ignorant of what is going on is just not helping. I'm just scared.

Everyone is. Even I am, after saying all along this is what we needed to do, I am still terrified.

Thing is...we've never experienced anything like this...who knows what's right and wrong. None of this shit is understandable.. But, as cheesey as it may sound..right now, I'd give everything to be able to reach out and touch all the people that matter in my life.

i'm not scared so much as i'm sad and skeptical. bombs don't discriminate but i hope, in this case, all the good people are safe.

I sadly agree with Nate, I am awaiting retaliation

and on a lighter note

seeing the night-vision blue and green blobs on tv sure took me back to '89. Yup yup. That's what war looks like. It's smudges of green with a CNN logo on the corner. as i drove back home from thanksgiving dinner my parent's place tonight i looked over the vast green hills and tried to imagine them as sand dunes in Afghanistan, the farm buildings just rubble, and fighter jets cutting the sky. Crazy. I love how it's a "war on Terrorism", like Terrorism is a country or a glowing purple enemy in a cave a-la Star Trek. Shoot it Shoot it!!!! I love how they say that they have frozen their bank accounts. Who feels good about that? Is Joe Six Pack sitting at home and he sees that on tv and turns to the wifey and goes: "Oh good! they froze their bank accounts, now they won't have any money!" is he doing that? Without thinking that in order for that to happen it means that #1) they keep real bank accounts #2) 'we' knew the whole time exactly what bank accounts those were and #3) 'we' had the power to close them. when believing any of those three things is scarier than anything. Sleep easy tonight Joe. But of course i watched some financial guy on some news show admit that it's insane to believe that it's that simple, and yeah, that's just to make people feel better. And this is all becoming 1984, and Farenhight 451, and every book ever written like that. And i watched Dr.Strangelove again last night and this time it actually scared the fuck out of me. They should have called it 'Operation Infinite Pacification' CNN had a documentary on called "behind the veil", about the Taliban and etc. They had the story of how a soccer stadium was built with funds from all over the world, to lift the spirits of the people of Afghanistan. But the Talibam use it to stage daily executions, cheering crowd and all. They hang rows of men off the goal posts, and line women up along the white lines to be shot. They asked one of the Taliban PR guys about it during an interview and it went something like this: "we would use it for football, but then where would we hold our executions? football is a happy and joyfull pastime, and so is justice. We will use it to play football only when the UN gives us money to build a new place to hold our executions. You see? we ask for so little, but we get nothing." Other than paraphrasing, i'm not exaggerating. He said much worse. damn. If i lived in washington right now, i'd move.

what good do we do by bombing a country? (supposedly) we're taking the opportunity to bomb iraq too. will nothing be well and good until the entire world is (westernized) culturally stagnant, with no curiosities other than the latest fashion trends? we are not going to war against another country. we are goinbg to war against another ideal, and that is something that a bomb can't destroy. it doesn't matter who we go against, if they are willing to die for their cause, then killing one won't stop them. the only real solution is to attempt to understand what they are thinking, figure out the culural differences between bush and bin laden and try a compromise. they don't care who dies if there is a person behind to grab the gun from dying man's arms. and how different are we really? we'd probably do similar actions if the roles were switched. we all share the same planet. and unlike some people, it'll take me a long-ass time to save up $20 billion to rocket to the moon.

I'll believe it's a War on "Terrorism" when you see anti-abortion activists down on the ground with a cop's knee between their shoulder blades. "We know you are associated with terrorists! People who use bombs and guns to make their point! We tapped your phone, that's how we know!" For those of you keeping score: War on Poverty: Us, zero. Poverty, 1. War on Drugs: Us, zero. Drugs, 1,000. War on Terrorism: ?

I think bombing an abortion clinic is an act of terrorism. burning churches racist attacks (hate crime) just so long as they don't start calling teasing a kid with braces egging a teachers house stealing the opposing team's mascot as terrorism

i'd like to see everyone who teases a kid with braces on the ground with a cop's knee in their back.

Well,now I'm scared.We're all worried about what effect this war will have on us.My mom sent me this.Moms know. > > Kabul, Afghanistan---September 30, 2001 -- A shocking > development took place today as the ruling members of the > Taliban held a press conference threatening the United > States if its territory is invaded. Immigration Czar > Mohmammed Ali Momaluke stated that the Afghan > authorities "would not hesitate for a moment" to cut off > the US supply of convenience store managers. > > > > >

Some people think braces are sexy, http://www.silversmiles.com

"Do it yourself" braces,is a very scary concept.

"All night I was with my four children. We were very afraid. We didn't sleep," Mohammed said Monday. "I don't understand why the people of Afghanistan are such unlucky people."

i love it pez. "we are not going to war against another country. we are goinbg to war against another ideal, and that is something that a bomb can't destroy." its perfect! ", figure out the culural differences between bush and bin laden and try a compromise" sounds like you've been listening to your dreamy 22 year old punker roomates. what a load of shit. you tell me how a man who can organize the utter chaos caused on NYC, you tell me how such a soul can do that....and be proud of it, relish in it, that feels we deserved.....you tell me, what the fuck sitting down and working out a cultural "compromise" is supposed to achieve. this guy is a fanatic pez. there is no more understanding him than understanding the likes of a serial killer. we've been taking the opportunity to bomb iraq, at will, for years now. we bomb them weekly. thats nothing new. im just loving the brilliant call trace, our very own paul revere made here at 10am. it was on CNN by that time right?

He probably knew because those planes left from Whiteman AFB. Isn't that where he works?

no i was just thinking at what a moronic remark it was, considering at 1030am MY time, "IT" had begun. And IT had been underway for a few hours. further "peace be with us all" MY ASS. just like the rest of the ass monkeys/hypocrites leading this country....peace through bombs.

"The War Prayer" by Mark Twain It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way. Sunday morning came-next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!-then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation -- "God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!" Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was that an ever--merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory - An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal,"Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!" The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said "I come from the Throne-bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import-that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of-except he pause and think. "God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it. "You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen! "O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. (After a pause) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits." It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin "History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure." - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) (thanks to St. Byron Werner for posting this on alt.slack)

You know what.... We're bombing them get over it. The consequenses of whatever happens as a result of this will happen. Make no mistake you cannot change it. Do not fear it, this is us, you are a part of the united state, you don't have to like it and you can say it if you don't. That is your right as an American, but these people, and yes even the "innocent" as you call them, belive that you are going to fucking hell because you're a heathen, and those so called rights that allow you to say the bombing is wrong makes you that heathen and for it should burn in the pits of hell. We're bombing them, people are dying, so are camels, you know I'm have more sympathy for the camels. We've been bombing Iraq for years, have any of you said a damn thing about it then before??? NO, only now do you care, why is this? You are sheep, don't fall prey to this kind of media is crap. We are bombing them, it happens, and we can't stop it.

people here in sorabji have been expressing themselves about our bombing of iraq for years man. where have you been? and its not something you "just get over". you try and explain that to the people on the ground there. that kind of statement just further proves we are so dislocated, so out of touch. we have no idea. no clue.

I have an idea, I have a clue. Ask me if I care. Patrick what you don't understand is I know whats going on, I understand the ramifications of what this may incur, I don't care. We're bombing them, and I understand the right all of you have to be morally objective to that, but also understand that I have a right to think that the US goverment can bomb the fuck out of them. Do you understand why I don't care? tis not because I want to see thousands of "innocents" killed, its not because I have hatred of the muslum religion, its not because I want some form of revenge. Its because there isn't a god damned thing I can do about it. Bitching about it doesn't fix it, doesn't stop it. And who knows maybe it is the RIGHt thing to do. I don't know and neither do you. It was bound to happen sooner, or later, the fact that its us doing it well someone was eventually. the Afganistani people have been pissing of several countries for years. The Taliban, they are heartless... Fuck I mean look what we went over with Milosovich,or whatever his fucking name is. They exicute people in a soccer staduim because its a great place for it. "Peace is only a waiting period between wars." the waiting is up people you can be with it or against it that is your right. But don't let another Vietnam happen, don't give a soldier shit because he's fighting in Afganistan, I don't want to see Americans come home from this and be treated like shit because the bombing was "wrong." For fucks sake these people are Americans just like you and I.

"I know whats going on, I understand the ramifications of what this may incur, I don't care. " Antrax in Florida. Do you care now?

Read the story, see what website is publishing it... And my answer to your question is, "no."

wow hal thats a real brave stance you are taking there?

Nope not brave, just honest.

um hal the story is on all headlines. across the board. in this instance the fact that its on salon is irrelavent. the trick hal is being able to discern WHAT to pay attention to WHEN. whats startling, and even slightly scary for me is the guy worked in the mail room. imagine if the american media was targeted. imagine if letter that had spores were sent to every mailroom in in every major media, print, tv, radio. makes me think twice before walking into my mailroom.

but you're not really stating anything, thats my point. its pussy. you're sitting on a fence. being blase to be blase. honest or not its pussy because aren't stating anything at all. which is fine if you still have dialogue and debate in your mind. but you seem pretty resolved not to give a shit and thats sad.

I agree with Patrick. Just because you think you can't do anything about it doesn't mean it's ok not to care. But of course, you don't care that as many Iraqis die every month as were killed in NYC, because of sanctions. Imagine that happening here. And please stop equating the Taliban with the Afghan people. Not the same thing. We didn't care about the people the last time we got involved in Afghanistan and look what that lead to. That being said, I'm all for rooting out and killing terrorists. Treat them like cancer and the country like the rest of the body - eradicate the bad, use preventitve measures on teh rest to keep it from happening again.

Why is that Sad Patrick. Because choose not to choose a side, because I feel that the constant bickering that goes on about whether or not we "should or should not bomb the fuck out of them" is pointless. Because I feel that one way or another my opinion changes nothing and there for why not sit and watch it happen, make a decision if it directly effects the ones I love. When I say I don't care, I mean I don't care that they bomb, they were going to do it anyway, I'm not going to waste a few hours of my life watching it on TV, it doesn't change anything. I don't like arguing unless it has a point, that point maybe to change someones point of view or to change policy. Well I've pretty much seen over my years at sorabji, that changing a persons point of view is like a guy trying to suck his own cock, most often its impossible, although every once in a while it works and even then you spooge in your own face. And we sure as hell aren't going to change some sort of policy here, our goverment is going to do what it feels is right with or without our insight. Bush talks out his ass you and I know it. As for the Antrax issue, I belive that if it were serious the CDC would have issued a warning about it, but check their site there is nothing there. Always check your sources, if there is threat of biological weapons check the CDC, its like the mail hoax that was going around, they posted a warning to cut the shit out. TBone told me the other day that I have a tendency to post conjecture. Well I've decided to change that, I know that a few of you got the little article that I mailed out on Sept. 11, and I know a lot of people emailed me back and gave me a piece of their minds. Well it was my own fault, I wrote that based on Speculation and Conjecture. No more, I was a debater in high school, I know the differnece between BS, and real evidence, I had to we used BS more then evidence and if you didn't use the evidence right it was more harmfull then the BS was. So from now on, unless I can proove it, unless there is a direct threat, or unless I can look at some thing and back it up. I'm not going to take the media for its fucking word. As for the Antrax issue, well hey it might have been real, it might have started some epidemic, but what the fuck am I going to do about it? Become some fucking savior in a bio suit? No, I'm going to sit at home and watch it all unfold on NBC, or CBS, or FOX, or CNN, or MSNBC, or CSPAN.... I don't like that option. Call me a pussy if you like Patrick, call me a pussy for not wanting to argue about things I cannot change, to bitch about our goverment doing things that we don't want it to although what the hell are we going to do about it? I'm going to go on with my life, and unless something affects me, fuck it.

I'm not equating the Afgani people with the Taliban, but its a known ideal that the Afganies don't really like us much either.

again...like i had to clarify with tbone...im not calling YOU pussy....im calling your stance, or lack there of pussy. your missing my point. i could careless if you choose to have a dialogue here. but have some spine man. decide where you stand. have some backbone, define yourself. you are not an island. did you read any existentialist writers as of late? you sound like me after i first read Sartre. The CDC is involved with the investigation. It very well could be isolated. But the timing is suspect. They havent issued any warnings because they dont know. Unfortunately, the way anthrax works, any warnings will be too late.

"I don't like arguing unless it has a point" For someone who doesn't like to argue, you sure are pitching quite a fit. I liked it how you condemned the story for being published by Salon, yet it was really from the Associated Press. That shows keen observation skill and a cool, calm mind. "I was a debater in high school, I know the differnece between BS, and real evidence..." Pardon me one second. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! M'kay. Much better now.

Oh, patrick, there's no point in having a stance at the moment. And, as for spine and stance, in my experience it takes more spine to not have a specific stance because reactionary tight asses like you are so common. :-P

bah! im first to admit when im not sure. im also first to admit i change my mind often. and i resent that....my ass is not tight.

antigone, you're such a cunt.

you too, patty. cunty cunt cunt.

IN THE LAND OF CUNTS, THE ONE-EYED MAN IS KING.

I saw that about the second anthrax case this morning and I thought oh shit,those bastards,I've only been to Florida once,Orlando,in August,but I remember that plnes would fly and spray bug spray,let's pray those fuckers didn't do something like that with anthrax.

I wondered when Nate was going to get into this... Nate you never fail to suprise and amuse me.

you go, hal. J, crop dusters can't spray anthrax.

It has to be done via aerosol, and crop dusters drop dry powder. But, there is a lot more chemicals they could drop in dry powder form. No, our arguing does not make any difference. But, it is how some deal with the circumstances they cannot change. So is refusing to argue about it. It is not wrong, it is not right. It is just how each individual deals with it themselves. This was inevidable. Those fuckers need to die. Aso, food for thought: Innocent civilians may not be what they appear, as I have said before. Today, they are innocent, not doing anything. But yesterday they may have and tomorrow they may do something again. The northern alliance is just another faction of the same beleifs as the Taliban. Paskistan is only one degree removed from the Taliban. India is mad that Pakistan broke off from them. Syria, Lybia, Iran, Iraq, the whole region is the same, just different factions. It might as well be the Dis-United States of Islam/Arabia. I think that will come more into light as this thing progresses. I am also suprised that the cells in the other nations have yet to act.

I may be a cunt, Nate, but at least I'm a slippery cunt. IN THE LAND OF THE CUNTS, THE TIGHT-ASSED MAN IS QUEEN.

"Innocent civilians may not be what they appear, as I have said before." you too, trace. maybe you deserve to die.

And, on a lighter note, Rush Limbaugh is deaf. He now has a medical reason to ignore differing viewpoints.

mmmmmm cunt

that you are, antigone. that you are.

Well excuse me while I lay a snail trail across a salt lick, you prick fuck.

COCKPIT RUSHED ON AMERICAN AIRLINES JET according to drudge.

When old glory fights back

oops "A demonstrator's hair catches fire while buring a U.S. flag during a demonstration in the center of Peshawar, Pakistan, Monday Oct. 8, 2001. Demonstrators vented their anger over the U.S. and British military strikes in Afghanistan on Sunday. (AP Photo/Peter Dejong)"

Douching Linked to Vaginal Infection Risk NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Douching may triple a woman's risk of developing a common bacterial infection of the vagina, US researchers report. Dr. Claudia Holzman and her colleagues at Michigan State University in East Lansing studied 496 women from three healthcare clinics in central Michigan. They analyzed vaginal samples for bacterial vaginosis, a condition marked by the overgrowth of certain bacteria that dwell in the vagina. The primary symptom is an abnormal vaginal discharge, but some women have no symptoms. The prevalence of bacterial vaginosis ranged from 15% to 30% across the three clinics, according to the report published in the October issue of the American Journal of Public Health: Journal of the American Public Health Association (news - web sites). Compared with women who had not douched in the past 2 months, women who reported douching during that time period were three times more likely to have the infection. Douching has been related to the risk of bacterial vaginosis, but much of this relationship has been attributed to the fact that women with symptoms of infection would be more inclined to douche. Holzman told Reuters Health she was not necessarily surprised by her team's finding, but was ``impressed by the strong association between recent vaginal douching and bacterial vaginosis even among women who reported that their reasons for (douching) were unrelated to vaginal symptoms and vaginal infections.'' Across the three clinics, 45% to 70% of woman with bacterial vaginosis reported that they were not experiencing vaginal symptoms. One way douching might raise the risk of bacterial vaginosis is by disturbing the natural balance of bacteria in the vagina. Holzman's team calls for more study of how regular douching might affect the ``vaginal ecology.'' The researchers also found that education was closely linked to the risk of bacterial vaginosis. ``The highest prevalence was in subgroups of women with lower levels of education,'' Holzman said. Specifically, African-American women with 13 or fewer years of schooling had a 5.5-fold increase in risk. In other findings, hormone use in the past 6 months was associated with a 50% reduction in bacterial vaginosis--a finding that supports prior studies. SOURCE: American Journal of Public Health 2001;91:1664-1670.

(cockpit was rushed by a retard)

""Innocent civilians may not be what they appear, as I have said before." you too, trace. maybe you deserve to die. " Maybe so, Nate. Are you trying to terrorize me?

no, trace. i'm just saying you're no different than those you intend to victimize.

some existentialism for y'all. "The evil that is in the world always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole, men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance that fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. The soul of the murderer is blind; and there can be no true goodness nor true love without the utmost clear-sightedness." -Camus, "The Plague"

Again, I disagree. Me, myself, and I DID NOT crash a plane in the world trade center. Me, myself and I DID NOT plan it, support it, train someone else how to do it, etc. I am not sure, but I THINK THAT MAKES ME DIFFERENT then those "I intend to victimize".

Anthrax is not just a biological weapon, folks. People can get it in lots of different ways. And Hal, it really is silly to say you don't care because you can't stop it. That kind of attitude keeps folks like Hitler in power.

Yeah, I wonder what the number of yearly contractions of Anthrax is in this country. Is this the same thing as the shark attacks the media jumped all over this summer (because of the sensational story of the kid and his uncle wrestling the shark into submission) whereas it was actually a light year for shark attacks across the world compared to other years.

"Anthrax is not just a biological weapon, folks. People can get it in lots of different ways. " Previously there's been one fatal case in 25 years. Now there's two cases, one fatal, within a few miles where terrorists lived and trained for a year. Highly improbable that this is a coincidence. It is, of course, still possible. Speculation: the terrorists infect themselves with Anthrax a few days before performing their mission, since they know they'll die anyway, and the incubation period is minimum six days. They hope to spread it among people in the airports and planes they use on the way to their intended targets. This part of their plan didn't go so well because the strain of Anthrax they had wasn't easily communicable, but they didn't know this 'cause they didn't read the fucking label on the Acme Bioterrorism Sampler Pack.

that was the first case of anthrax in 25 years, dougie. trace: the people who crashed those planes were saudis and egyptians. who are we bombing now? how many of the 7.5 million who could damn well die because of us had anything to do with this? are you a voter, trace? are you a part of this country? because if you are you are responsible for the deaths of millions. you. you in as much as anyone else who exists within lines drawn by men who have no chance of catching hell from above.

So waht, because I vote, I am responsible for the planes flown by terrorists trained in the camps in afganistan flying into the WTC? Good God, what is in that shit you are smoking? By your definition, the other people on the planes that were crashed into a building are more responsible then bin laden.

Damn. I was hoping it was media hype. My ex-boss just e-mailed me and said he works down the street from the building where these guys contracted this, and said their HR department e-mailed everybody saying that if employees wish to stay home for a few days, that would be ok. And who the fuck is the Dani person on the WAYD? Was she a regular at one time? Holy crap, I mean, I've spewed some distasteful shit here, but her posts offended even me.

well, no-- i was talking more about the deaths of the millions caused by our activities in the middle east, the balkans, etc. but, since you're fixated on the events of 9/11, where do you think they got their training? bin laden worked for the cia, after all.

And yes it is fine by me... I voted, so I am responsible for who might be in power. There isn't shit I can do till the next time I'm given a chance to do that again, at which point I will view my reasons for voting like I did last time and remedy them as may be necissary... As of right now I can't do a damn thing and there fore I don't give a fuck.

that was my own idea, patrick. all the news reports are accompainied by the caption "america strikes back". it reminds me of all the star wars stuff. but really, what have we to gain by bombing afghanistan? bin laden is probably long gone by now, knowing his capabilities. if a single one of his followers get killed, it will only give him more reason to further damage our pride. i'm not saying bush and bin laden should go to starbucks for coffee and a couple nuclear missles, but the only way the chain of retaliations is going to end is if we give them nothing to retaliate against. no bombs, no weapons for israel, no nothing. note: this is not a war. the government has not declared war on afghanistan. the u.s. has not declared war since 1941. what does this mean, anything goes? this is stupid. i voted during the november election. for gore. and i felt really foolish and wussy afterwards, voting for the lesser of two evils.... still evil. not that it makes me like bush any more. stupid monkey-eared boy drug-addict right wing ceo of usa inc. czar wars: episode v: amerika strikes back. starring obi bin laden.

Anybody else think Christiane Amanpour is totally hot?

ew. no.

I also think Chrissy Hyndes is totally hot. I should post a picture of my former wife.

So much you know or pay attention Dougie because I have been here before and I have posted here several times over the years. Either your head has been up your ass or maybe up Christiane Amanpour's ass but I have indeed insulted several others here so you are not unique. That Christiane chick is one UGLY chick. Tells me alot about your taste, or lack of I should say. Just for curiositys sake, what exactly did I say to offend you? I surely dont remember using your name in any of my posts so how I could have possibly offended you is beyond me. Maybe you just dont like my opinions...sorry 'bout your luck.

*pulls head out of Christiane's ass momentarily and removes arm from Chrissy Hynde's love tunnel, wipes mouth with back of hand, swaggers up to Dani a la John Wayne, pulls back to coldcock her, thinks better of it, walks away and eases back in to what he was doing thinking that would have been way too easy*

oh, dani. i've seen pictures. you have no credibility when it comes to talking about taste and ugliness. i'm not just trying to insult you, i seriously mean that. photography can't create ugliness, but it can enhance it and in your case there's no shortage of raw material. btw, i'm an ugly, fat fuck and i've never said otherwise.

"but, since you're fixated on the events of 9/11, where do you think they got their training? bin laden worked for the cia, after all." Yah, and so did countless thousands train as Marine Seals, green berets, special forces, etc. They aren't out hijacking airplanes. And I refuse to accept that because I vote I am responsible for the death of millions. That is ludicrous. While I admit we should be more careful about supporting foreign countries, we have to keep the Nazi's in mind. What you are advocating would have left them in power

I am proud to vote. As I have said before, arguing here won't change shit. If I want to make change I do it by voting. I write congressmen. I investigate people and situations. Talking here is good for emotional health and acquiring different points of view, but I have to agree with Hal. I am who I am, and I don't care. It is happening and I support my president and my country. I support the brave souls who are out there fighting for my country, and my future. It is done, and nothing I say, do, or think, will change that. Consequences are inevitable, yet I am firm in my resolve to stand and say, "Take it up the ass motherfuckers, cuz I am fighting back." The entire situation is scary, and I do have many fears, but I believe that there are many people out there making decisions that many of us don't have the guts to make. I support them and I support those securing whatever future I may have. It is already started. By the way, another thing to think about. The latest case of anthrax was found inside a computer keyboard. On Fox news now. Who has had access to the keyboards you use lately? Who could have access to them? Condemn someone for a lack of a stance all you want, but will it help someone from dropping a powder infected with anthrax onto your keyboard at work?

Well, there are NO photos of me on the internet Dave so you have me confused with some other person who thinks your retarded and as far as appearance goes...again, sorry 'bout your luck and all but I actually totally love myself and am admired by many. Soooooooooo....what next?

Speaking of wives and pic's, here's Eri: http://thehixons.8m.com/images/erin.jpg

fuck that. ridin had pictures of your skanky ass on her site. in the spirit of not polluting wayd with your mess, i will say here that nothing you could ever conceive of or communicate will ever go over my head. just because, due to sheer laziness and lack of interest, i don't address it, point by point, in all it's permutations, does not mean it's meaning is lost on me. in fact, i seriously doubt you see the slightest fraction of what i see in the words you barf up.

Those pics were just me, Ridin, and Lee and there was nothing wrong with those pics. They were just the 3 of us sitting on the couch...if you were looking right at the pic, I was on the left. Besides being way over the edge and totally retarded, I think your confused because that was a pretty decent pic actually. Wow, you seem to be a bit angry Dave. Didnt know I had the awesome capability to get to your last nerve like this. Settle down hero, take care of the ole ticker. Nice little speech up there pal, who dictated it to you?

"are you a voter, trace? are you a part of this country? because if you are you are responsible for the deaths of millions." Stand there, in front of what was the WTC and tell that to the ones who lost their sons, daughters, wives, husbands, etc, or tell that to the rescue/recovery workers. Tell them they lost their love ones because they are a voter, a part of this country they are responsible for the deaths of millions. I can't beleive that spewed out of your mouth.

ooh, way to twist it around. i'm about as angry as you are so you tell me how angry i am? a lot? not at all? thanks for verifying my point about the pictures. that they exist, not your biased critique. we all know you love yourself.

In fact, I just found a pic of me, my daughter, and Lee...Ridin aint in this because she is taking our picture but it is one off of Ridin's web page. . I'd be happy to send it to you Dave so you can tell me whats so bad about it. Hair wasnt done and makeup wasnt done and it still aint a bad pic. The pic was taken 3 1/2 years ago and my hair is now much lighter from the sun...and the highlighting treatments and I'm about 25 shades tanner but I still look more or less the same as I did in the pic. So, where shall I send the pic to Ding Dong Dave?? If I could post it right here I would but it's in my ICQ folder. Got one of you to share with me? Doubt it. Just let me know how to send this pic to you...e-mail will work. I can do it right now in fact. Unless of course your now gonna play the "I dont give a fuck what you look like Dani" role. Being that you started it, I'll gladly finish it.

check your email, hole.

Check your e-mail, rectum.

Can I see the picture,too?

My pic is nothing special Czarina but it's in your e-mail. It's up to Dave to send you his.

Those were great pics!I feel like I've just reached out and touched someone.

Your a nice person CZ and I look forward to the pics your about to send.

Ok ok ok... I'm feeling left out, allow me to interject my opinon please. I'd like to see the pic that is causing so much commotion.

shut up, hal.

Don't feel left out,Hal.Just today I saw a dancing squirrel,and thought of you.

There is no commotion Hal. Just had to prove that I am NOT a skank. Done deal. I am a normal person with nothing extraordinary about me but certainly not skanky looking. And I wont tell you to shut up...thats rude.

god, you are a manipulative hole.

Can I be a manipulative-hole-in-training? I think that that might be a great deal of fun. Trace, the point is this: not everyone in America supports the idea that we should bomb Afghanistan, right? It is therefore safe to assume that not everyone in Afghanistan supported the bombing of the US. Very few people in the US get a say, one way or the other, about whether we actually go and blow up Afghanistan. Very few people in Afghanistan had a say, one way or the other, about whether Bin Laden would blow up the WTC. So. is it fair to punish people (kill them) for something they didn't do? Our government, which represents us, which has our tacit support, because we voted for it, is now killing those people who didn't do anything. Unless you did everything you could to prevent this bombing from taking place, instead of just reading the paper and watching the times, you are now a murderer due to your inaction. But like Hal said, there's nothing we coulda done anyhow. So we're all going to hell. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.

And you Dave are an ignorant rectum.

I heard this on NPR Saturday: The gist of it, that in military history, there have been a series of "revolutions in warfare" which are very infrequent. Some examples include the introduction of bronze weapons, the introduction of iron weapons, the longbow, gunpowder, and so on. The point the guy was trying to make, and i din't catch the evidence for it, was that everytime there is one of these revolutions in warfare, the party in power at the beginning of the revolution was not in power at the end of it, i.e. when everyone had adopted the new method of making war. The point I took away from thsi is that we may not recognize it, but this IS war. They are right when they say this a new kind of war, and they are right when they say we are ill-equiped to fight it. How it all turns out depends on how willing we are to fight this type of war, how able we are to fight the enemy in an effective way but not on his terms.

I think that at this point,it is useless to debate whether or not we should be attacking.This is a: "MOOT POINT" Whether or not we agree with it,we ARE there.Period.Thats what needs to be dealt with. The repercussions.Thats the scary part. I sincerely feel that most of the MidEasterners truley hate us Westerners.[through no fault of their own,this is merely how they have been raised,(similar to being raised in the KKK),when bombarded with enough input,one eventually buys it,whether its right or wrong,it becomes a reality] These people live dismal lives.Their realities are merely finding enough food to feed their families each day.That is their priority. The small faction that is responsible for the terrorist attacks,aren't suffering,they're eating,they have medicine,they're in hog-heaven.

Good point Sem,and I think Nate posted the answer awhile back when he said we should feed them,the press has told us that we are dropping food and medicine in Afghanistan,but I see that there are alot of refugees in Pakistan and I don't see that we are doing anything for them,I think we should.

the food the military is dropping is posing a problem, according to the UN. The bombing raids are hindering UN relief workers. The food drops by the military are nothing but military propaganda. Feelie-good fodder for me leftist liberal anti-war schmuck to chew on. Yes its super they are airdropping the food. But being dropped but 30,000+ the chances the food is damaged or unedible are high. Its bullshit. The refugees in Pakistan are being tended to by UN, as best they can, as I understand it. Dani, picture or no picture...you still sound like a "skank". I mean really... you sound like a petulant 3 year old. Bark bark bark bark bark bark.....Bark bark bark bark bark bark. Eri "'Take it up the ass motherfuckers, cuz I am fighting back.'" Um, no you arent. We arent fighting back. We are lobbing million dollar missles at worthless targets. Fighting back? You at home, in safe and secure middle america. You know nothing about fighting. You know nothing about air raids, blackouts, giant explosions nearby having no idea when the next errant million dollar missle hits you instead. Just like the gulf war, people somehow think they share in the experience with their flags and yellow ribbons...voicing their support they somehow SHARE the experience. This isnt a fucking video game! This isn't Saving Private Ryan! Brave souls where? The guys in the million dollar jets that practically fly themselves, with smart bombs. Brave? Brave? Bullshit! Million dollar missles will do NOTHING to stop anthrax from showing up on your keyboard. FOOLS! FOOLS! FOOLS!

It is a moot point. My problem is being called a terrorist

trace: "Stand there, in front of what was the WTC and tell that to the ones who lost their sons, daughters, wives, husbands, etc, or tell that to the rescue/recovery workers." Stand in front of a mob of "just been bombed" Afghanis and tell them they're evil and should have died in the recent attack. "Tell them they lost their love ones because they are a voter, a part of this country they are responsible for the deaths of millions." Just because this issue raises strong emotions in people does not make it any less true...or any less false, for that matter.

So I take it this means I don't get to see the picutre...

At least we are not bitching about the men and women over there risking their lives, Patrick.

patrick: "Yes its super they are airdropping the food. But being dropped but 30,000+ the chances the food is damaged or unedible are high. " Not necessarily true. The technique of dropping supplies from a high altitude has been perfected quite a bit, from what I hear, since being tested extensively in Kosovo. To reflect your own argument, what experience do you have dropping food from high altitude?

what? whose bitching? im outraged at what my gov't is doing. You call that bitching? is that what you call opinions you don't agree with? bitching? im calling everyone else here who somehow thinks by offering "support", (mis)flys a flag, wears a yellow band and says sabre-rattling rhetoric like your wife did is a pussy. we know nothing. the men and women of our armed services are just doing what they are poorly paid to do. chances are they just wanted to go to college. I don't judge them. I respect them. Just becareful who you call a hero. bitch

hal, i sent one to you last night. don't go popping a chubby over it.

I'm a proud pussy,so proud that I gave blood,got a letter yesterday(and didn't I post that they probably wouldn't use Heathers),it said I might have hepetitus C,but it also said it might be a false positive.This may affect my drinking. I'm getting tired of all this picking on Dani too.

well obviously no more experience than you dumbass. but the elements at 30,000 feet is tremendous enough...consdiering the packets are designed to whirlybird down as opposed to fall dead weight, means they spend more time in the harsh elements, making it a possibility, the air pressure, cold or impact could make them useless. but this is really beside the point. its military propaganda either way.

"Tell them they lost their love ones because they are a voter, a part of this country they are responsible for the deaths of millions." Just because this issue raises strong emotions in people does not make it any less true...or any less false, for that matter. Wrong. The cinicsim i see here towards your own fellow citizens (And I am assuming yourselves) is the most shocking I have ever read on this site.

I guess that means no catalog for me huh Patty? Your just yet another wanna be know it all and all you are to me is shit on the bottom of my shoe. Your comments mean nothing to me. I've been called alot worse by alot better and the fact is, you cannot offend me. But you can knock yourself out trying if you wish. Perhaps you should bark bark bark your self inside some afghan bitches skanky cunt where I'm sure you'd be quite happy. Put your mouth to some good use while your in there. Although I have my doubts that your any good at that either. Maybe you should just stick to selling sweaters. Hal, sending someones photo without their permission is tasteless so just hang in there, I'm sure someone will send it to you eventually. The whole photo thing is over anyway. Yesterdays news. Thank you J but it's ok.

That and most of the food they drop in is 25 year old MRE's so the food is pretty damn well indestructable.... That and although many would disagree still edible.

my god put down the grade school insult book and think for yourself for once dani. you sound like a child. whats next..."i know you are but what am I?"

Again, my main beef is with being called a terrorist. This is quite simply a damned if you do, damned it you dont situation. The only question remains are you damned for sitting around with your hands up your ass or are you going to be damned with your fists up?

"well obviously no more experience than you dumbass." You don't know that. Why don't you ask before you insult? "but the elements at 30,000 feet is tremendous enough..." I think it's safe to assume that people dropping the supplies have thought about these issues a bit more than you have. "but this is really beside the point. its military propaganda either way." Maybe so. Why didn't you say so in the first place instead of making bullshit ill informed statements?

trace: "The cinicsim i see here towards your own fellow citizens (And I am assuming yourselves) is the most shocking I have ever read on this site. " Shocking times call for shocking statements. What you call cynicism I call objectivity. Judge yourself in the same way you would judge others, and always judge yourself first. Do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself and your family. That seems like the best way to avoid being damned.

i didnt need to ask , because you have a history of nitpicking. it was a safe assumption on my part. it isnt ill-informed. it an assessment of the facts, that i have been given. eitherway. what you call cynicism I call criticism.

Gotta do WAY better than that Patty. Diarrhea of the mouth is Patty's specialty. I look forward to seeing what shit comes out of your mouth next. Grade school enough for you? That "think for yourself" line is getting old and tiring by the way.

MAYBE I NEED TO CLARIFY MYSELF HERE: I DO NOT CARE WHO TRAINED BIN LADEN I DO NOT CARE WHAT COUNTRY HE GREW UP IN I DO NOT CARE HOW HARD BIN LADEN'S LIFE IN AFGANISTAN IS I DO CARE THAT HE IS BEHIND THE WTC, PENTAGON, COLE, ETC. I THINK THAT MAN AND HIS ASSOCIATES AND ENABLERS MUST BE STOPPED. THE CIA IS NOT AN ENABLER FOR TRAINING HIM TO FEND OFF THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF AFGANISTAN. THAT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION. YES, INNOCENTS HAVE DIED, AND LIKELY MORE WILL DIE. YES, I GREIVE FOR THEM. BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT IS REASON TO LET BIN LADEN GO AND KILL POTENTIALLY MILLIONS MORE. if there is something we can do, we should do it. After that is finished, then we should re-evaluate ALL of our international policies, including Immigration

man. dani, im crushed.

Fuck him... I actually think that if we send ground troups in we should send in women. If we send in a battalion of hardend US soldiers and they kill a whole butt load of Afgani soldiers, those soldiers die with honor according to their religion. BUT!!! If we send in a battalion of women and their religion dicates that its a dishonor to be killed by a woman. That or kidnap Bin Laden, take him to a remote Hospital somewhere just outside of Afanistan, and have a good surgeon do a sex change opperation on him, and return him to Afganistan, dressed just as we took him to the same place.... Let the SOB die a woman in a country that HATES women. Now that would be fun.

I like that suggestion

Actually Czarina sent me an e-mail along those lines,it was funny. I'm sure most of the women in Afghanistan would love to stand up to the taliban if they could.

"THE CIA IS NOT AN ENABLER FOR TRAINING HIM TO FEND OFF THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF AFGANISTAN." Hmmmm... Trace, let's say you've trained a dog to rip the throats out of strangers. What if that dog got out and killed your neighbor's child? Should you be held responsible? What if it killed your child? You'd kill the dog, for sure, but wouldn't you feel a touch guilty about making the dog so dangerous?

I see your point. However, this is not a dog. This is a man.\ Again, the US has trained MILLIONS of soldiers, special ops, FBI, US Marshals, Secret Service, etc on advanced fighting tactics and killing methods. I don't see them out flying planes into buildings. The fact that we trained him on how to defend his country is not an excuse for his actions or reason to allow him to live. To use your analogy, the dog should be caught and killed. Then look at why the dog was trained to do what he did.

Oh, sorry I did not read your post completely. Guilty if I let it loose yes, but not for training it to protect my home. I would grieve for those that the dog killed. Dogs only know what they were trained to know. Man has a choice, and most have knowledge that killing thousands of innocents is not a good idea.

Dude. Patty,I knew you would be.

37,000 vegetarian MREs leaves roughly 7.46 million people without tasty MREs. trace, you are a terrorist because the government you elected commits terrorist acts with your full support. killing innocent people is terrorism. if you don't agree, please give me your definition of terrorism.

Apparently, our government should not be included in the "most have knowledge that killing thousands of innocents is not a good idea." I think the point that some of us are trying to make here is that the US does not have clean hands in this situation. The attacks did not happen without a context, a context that, like it or not, makes a lot of sense to a lot of people who don't like YOU. So, among the policies we should evaluate, trace, above immigration should be acting in the best interests of people, regardless of nationality or how bad our corporations need to exploit them so the CEO's can give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

Good God! After reading this thread,I'm beginning to think the terrorists have indeed had the last laugh on us. Look at us,turning on ourselves. Nobody likes whats happening.[except probably the terrorists behind this] But it is happening. Sorta like shit,its coming,whether we like it or not.Lets just hope it doesn't come at an inoppertune time. and FYI: the little "food bundles" we are air dropping have cute little wing thingy's on them,so they coast gently to the ground.They are high in caloric count,and provide 3 meals for the day,with about 2300 calories.They are quite durable,and contain no meat.And are "shelf hardy",so they retain their nutritional content for years,in case someone wants to save them for when company comes for dinner.They cost $4.00 each. I have no info as to their paltibility,but I have my suspicions. Thank you,and have a good day.

"Guilty if I let it loose yes, but not for training it to protect my home. " You're guilty (in many states) if the dog gets loose, not just if you "let it loose." You're liable for the damage, whether it was intentional or not. "Man has a choice, and most have knowledge that killing thousands of innocents is not a good idea." Yes. Apparently our government does not have that knowledge. Neither did I, really, until I saw it happen before my eyes on 9/11.

I did not realize that you had to have clean hands in order to acknowledge some ones elses hands are covered in shit

No, but it's a good idea to not pick your nose, especially if anthrax is floating around.

I still do not see how selling arms and giving money to Isreal constitutes terrorism. Or training a group of fighters on how to defend and assist them in defense of their country from invasion (afganistan, kuwait, isreal, all the european countries that surround germany, etc) constitute terrorism. To follow that to it's end, then you must assume that any gun dealer who sells a gun or ammo must also assume guilt if that gun is used in a murder. The only time that is applicable would be if the dealer KNEW the intent of the consumer, or KNEW of his background. IE, failed back ground check but sold him the gun anyway. You better start nailing the liquor retailer for selling beer to some guy who drank the six pack in his while running over a nun.

kinda like the ole saying there toughguy.... pot calling the kettle black. who are WE to "lead" the world on peace? What do WE know about peace? We certainly arent practitioners of such policy. i, like nate, am still waiting on your definition of terrorism trace.

No nun running will be tolerated.

I have not heard yours yet? Or am I to beleive that you think EVERY american is one? Be careful with that answer, buddy, because I KNOW that Republicans are not the only ones who sent money and weapons over seas. Your beloved Clinton did his fair share. Look at the baltic states.

What Clinton did with the BALKANS (the Baltics are Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia), pales in comparison with what good ol' Cowboy Ronnie did in Central America with those Contra Death Squads, trained right here in the good ol' US of A. You don't have to have clean hands is right trace, but it's folly not to recognize that fact when no one wants to shake hands with you.

Not wanting to shake hands and flying a plane into a building are two different things. I am sorry, I need to study about the whole Contra thing. I remember a nintendo game named contra and a Contra Arms scandal, but that is about it...... What about what the british did to Egypt over the Canal? Or Ireland, Scotland, etc. It is safe to say that there is no nation that is perfectly innocent out there today. Except Australia, I think. But the US usally starts with good intentions. But alas, we are human and error. That does not mean we should let the terrorist go free because we have dirt on our hands. And as far as not wanting to shake the US's hands, thge only ones who refuse to at this point are Iran Iraq Syria and China. Common theme there.

"You better start nailing the liquor retailer for selling beer to some guy who drank the six pack in his while running over a nun." actually alot of states can hold bartenders and liquor store clerks liable if they sell to someone who is already drunk. first of all...Clinton has NEVER been beloved. I don't know how many times i have to repeat that to you. just remember when all you faceitous salivating lap dog republicans lunged down his throat when he lobbed missles at bin Laden before and like a pack of monkeys you all screamed he was doing it to sidestep the Monica crap. second, i don't happen to agree with nate that we are ALL terrorists. thats a bit of a stretch. BUT i do believe we have a social responsibility, if not to protest, at least make it known to our representatives that we disapprove or approve of actions they are taking. Saying you approve this extreme use of force makes me question your integrity as a so called peace loving man. my definition of terrorism is textbook. Do i believe our gov't has engaged in terrorism? You bet. Sanctioned and supported terrorists? You bet. We support Israel, we send them guns, so according to Bush's words, we are no better than the gov't who fire them. We are now in full support of a Pakistani gov't we condemned months ago for the bloodless coup 2 years back. Musharraf was considered a dictator before 9/11. Now we are practically licking his ass. I mean the examples are countless....where we either directly or indirectly supported groups and gov't who have textbook terrorism, as well Bush-ian terrorism.

Name one nation that has not practiced terrorism then

Political party affiliation has had little effect on the bad decisions our government has made overseas. The Democrats just don't talk about it as much. "To follow that to it's end, then you must assume that any gun dealer who sells a gun or ammo must also assume guilt if that gun is used in a murder." Oh, that idea has been bandied about. Only by them crazy ilberals, tho. :) "You better start nailing the liquor retailer..." A bar can be held liable for getting a patron drunk, then letting them drive home. "The only time that is applicable would be if the dealer KNEW the intent of the consumer, or KNEW of his background..." Nope. Criminal negligence.

I agree with you about Pakistan. We have no business courting them. "first of all...Clinton has NEVER been beloved. I don't know how many times i have to repeat that to you. just remember when all you faceitous salivating lap dog republicans lunged down his throat when he lobbed missles at bin Laden before and like a pack of monkeys you all screamed he was doing it to sidestep the Monica crap." I was not referring to that incendent, however, I think that is what he was doing. TERRORISM via Webster's Dictionary: Main Entry: ter·ror·ism Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m Function: noun Date: 1795 : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion - ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun - ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective Terror: Main Entry: ter·ror Pronunciation: 'ter-&r Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE Date: 14th century 1 : a state of intense fear 2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT 3 : REIGN OF TERROR 4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror> That is pretty text book, and that would be my definition.

Worste part about this, what demands were made on September 11?

Patrick, if you think that all I do is tie a yellow ribbon around a tree and put a flag out and call that support, well that just shows your ignorance. I guess that's allright, though, considering you couldn't possibly know me or what I do and don't do. If you think I don't know anything about fighting, again, ignorance is bliss. If you want to criticize what I do or don't do, or what I know and don't know, you might want to make sure that you actually know what it is that I do and what it is I have done. Then maybe you would have a clue as to what you are talking about. "Trace, you are a terrorist because the government you elected commits terrorist acts with your full support. Killing innocent people is terrorism." Pretty speach Nate, but please define "full support" a pretty subjective phrase for a statement that is supposed to make a point. Based on this, just about anyone could dispute what you are saying. I know how you feel about the attacks. That is as clear as day. I really don't care. You really might want to consider moving to someplace where 2/3 of the people around you are not terrorists, by your definition. Wait a minute. You can't vote in Afganistan. Oh, yeah, still filled with terrorists. Geez, Nate, is there any place to go and be rid of all of us awful voters, and terrorists?

"violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands" you know how we've been bombing iraq for the past 11 years? you know how we bombed the fuck out of the balkans? you know how we are bombing afghanistan (in order to intimdate the taliban into granting our demands that they hand over bin laden?) we, the people, trace. we are the government. our government, WE THE PEOPLE, are the ones who act in a manner that fits your definition of terrorism. therefore, WE THE PEOPLE, are terrorists. every single fucking one of us. if you don't like it, leave.

What a sad world you live in

If this war doesn't fuck up my finances,I hope to have my ass in Costa Rica permantly in 5 years,we the people really don't have much say in what our goverment does,you must know that.

great comeback, trace. i live in the same world you do. "You can't vote in Afganistan. Oh, yeah, still filled with terrorists." afghanistan isn't filled with terrorists. afghanistan is full of people living in extreme poverty. 20% of the popluation depends on humanitarian workers for their daily meals (we 'evacuated' all humanitarian workers about a month ago.) there is a small population of terrorists in afghanistan. smaller than the popluation of 'criminals' we have in our jails. in the past 10 years your terrorists have killed an insignifigant number of innocents compared to the number we've killed.

no eri, i dont know what you specifically do or don't do, nor do i pretend to know. my rant was directed at your sabre-rattling, dumbass remark about kickin some afghani butt...like its a fucking video game. the rest of the comments which may or may not apply to you. trace...its pointless to say this: "Name one nation that has not practiced terrorism then" its beside the point. we can only be concerned about OUR behavior. i don't believe being a citizen makes you a terrorist by association. But if you support our gov't current military action, you are no different than the Palestians and others seen on TV cheering at the devastation in NYC and DC. Thats a big pill for middle america to swallow, and most won't but id like pose to ANYONE who supports current military action to demonstrate how they are different.

"Patrick, if you think that all I do is tie a yellow ribbon around a tree and put a flag out and call that support, well that just shows your ignorance." Then, what do you do, Eri? "If you think I don't know anything about fighting, again, ignorance is bliss." Then, what do you know, Eri? "Nate, is there any place to go and be rid of all of us awful voters, and terrorists?" Sweden's sounding pretty good right about now.

So we are just supposed to sit back and be sitting ducks the next time,and even before we started bombing,we all know there would be a next time?

In the past 10 years your terrorists have killed an insignificant number of innocents compared to the number we've killed. Yeah and? I don't care about the last 10 years. They are the past. I care about now. I care about today, and I care about tomorrow. If you don't like my view, that's fine. I don't care about that either. If you actually believe that every one of us is a terrorist, it is a sad life for you. Believe it all you want, though. It doesn't change what is happening now. J is right in the fact that I don't have a whole lot of say in what my government does. Because of that, I do what I can. It may not be much but I will still try, until the day I die. I may be one small voice in a country with millions, but I will try to make my voice heard. Of course, if more people did that, and voted for what they believe in, then maybe they would be better justified in their angers and fears. I just don't take the complaints of a non-voter seriously, simply because they don't do shit to change things, but talk and talk is cheap.

And to think that I was the media-fed dumbass yesterday. Theres that black kettle again. With all this bombing thats been going on in Iraq for the last 11 years, funny I never hear anything about it and I watch the evening news faithfully. Guess no one good or important has been hit yet.

the attack on 9/11 was a response to our killing of innocents (among other injustices.) our response to their response is to kill more innocents. we cannot wipe out terrorism by dropping bombs on poverty stricken nations. good news: come january syria will assume its seat on the UN security council.

"With all this bombing thats been going on in Iraq for the last 11 years, funny I never hear anything about it and I watch the evening news faithfully. Guess no one good or important has been hit yet." yes dani, because you didnt hear about it, it didnt happen. dumbass. That last sentence in particular is pretty fucking reprehensible, you callous war-monger. Do a search on cnn.com "allies bomb iraq" and see how many matches come back. We violate Iraqi airspace daily and unload bombs on them the minute they turn on self defense radar sites. Your ignorance hardly negates who or what is important.

Patrick AND Nate: YOUR ignorance hardly negates who or what is important YOUR opinion hardly negates who or what is important. YOUR callous view of america hardly negates who or what is important. (By the way, your view of the world is what I meant by what a sad world you live in. You live in the world you see. You create the world in your image. How sad that world must be).

Dani, are you for real? NAAH, nobody could be so gleefully and joyfully proud of proclaiming their own idiocy. (By the way, proclaiming means to declare something publicly, and it's pronounced Pro (short for Professional -- what you are), Claim (like what you file against your husband in court after he beats you all night for the 100th time), and Ing (the Ings are the long lost tribe that invented Inglish). Put them all together (Pro+Claim+Ing) and you get the word "proclaiming". Isn't it cute how that works?) Oh, and try not to move your lips too much when you read. It's really unbecoming of such a classy lady as yourself.

what ignorance? have we cited something that didnt happen, or isnt true. Opinions aside... myself or nate have cited facts and formulated opinions. where's the ingorant part? im a humanist trace, not a nationalist like yourself. the more i think about dani's comments in particular, the more i think she a sick sick individual. war mongers.

Facts -indiscriminent bombing of Iraq for 11 years -we sell Israel weapons, which in turn are used against Palestinians -We've supported numerous "reigmes" and dictators at one point or another who have committed terrorism and even genocide, including Noreiga, Bin Laden, Milosovic, and Saddam to name a few. -According to Bush's definition, we are terrorists, when the above FACTS are applied to his rhetoric. -according to the above we have sponsored and sanctioned terrorism, no? you deny this? on what grounds? what exactly can be disputed about this trace? Please, dispute any of these actions of our gov't and tell me where Im ignorant. SO, with that established who are we to lead a "war on terrorism" when we are just as guilty as those we demonize?

i'm a nationalist, and i think our nation is doing bad things. if i wasn't a patriot, i wouldn't give a fuck, right? i'd just pack up and move to sweden and eat fondue with antigone until we die old men. dani, i've heard wet concrete formultate better arguements. trace, eri: this thread is too long.

Sorabji Mongers

I thought I made this quite clear Patty but I guess not. I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THEM COUNTRIES OR THE FACT THAT WE INVADE THEIR AIR SPACE. I CARE ABOUT THE SURVIVAL AND WELL BEING AND SAFETY OF MY OWN COUNTRY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT HAPPENS TO BE WHERE ME AND FAMILY LIVE YOU FUCKIN STUPID TRAITOR. If you care so fuckin' much for other countries and their fuckin' people instead of your own than why dont you gather up your little fuckin' group of other traitors and go ahead and help them fuckers plan their next attack on us. There is a reason I dont hear about these attacks on Iraq for the last 11 years idiot...it's because it is not important enough to splatter all over the fuckin' news each and every day. You keep doing your little searches on CNN you media fed fuckin' dumbass. Your disregard and non patriotism for your own fuckin' country is reprehensible you yellow bellied spineless coward. Rot in hell you fuckin' pussy and take your care and concern for other counties with you. Fuckin' weakling.

Humanist. I see. OK. I should have caught on to that a long time ago. I understand better where you are coming from. I, sir, am not a nationalist per say. I do support my country. I do not do it because the tv tells me to, or radio or newspaper or what have you. I am, for the most part, a skeptic. I disbeleive most things until I see proof. Ask my wife. I understand your claims that we are not innocent, and I am forced, like it or not, to agree. I cannot, however, agree with doing nothing. I have to agree with Tony Blair on this issue, inaction in this case is far more dangerous then inaction. But, I also applaud you for not changeing the stance you have taken before september 11. You are being true to yourself, just as I am.

you're a sad human dani. a sad excuse for a human. fucking redneck. i am a patriot. far more one than you'll every be. And when I see our leaders acting in a way that i disagree with, I, like the framers of our country will dissent. i love the land where i live. I love the principles of what this country is founded upon. I don't agree with what the power brokers have done in the name of the United States in America since then. And i don't appreicate being called a traitor. Im a patriot with a brain dumbass. Your a blathering redneck, with no regard for humanity outside your own little sphere of a world. For that your a sick sick sick person. Im not a nationalist because i don't believe in imposing our ways above the rest of the worlds. Nationalism leads to the very kind of shit we are doing right now. Nationalism leads to the demise of other equally valuable cultures. actually trace if look at the thread on the 11th, though i preceeded it with "though it may be emotional" i called for carpet bombing whomeever did this. Ive since cooled and calmed and gained ration and reason. My opinion has changed over time. Until Sunday, I was fairly pleased with the way our gov't was handling the situation.

Dani: "I CARE ABOUT THE SURVIVAL AND WELL BEING AND SAFETY OF MY OWN COUNTRY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT HAPPENS TO BE WHERE ME AND FAMILY LIVE YOU FUCKIN STUPID TRAITOR." If you really cared about the survival of your family, you wouldn't want us to invade other countries. Our survival depends on having a happy, healthy world, as much as that's possible. We're not just isolated nations anymore, as 9/11 has shown for us in spades. The rest of the world has known that for a long time. We've had the luxury of being able to ignore that, but no longer. "There is a reason I dont hear about these attacks on Iraq for the last 11 years idiot...it's because it is not important enough to splatter all over the fuckin' news each and every day." There are other reasons too, but it sounds like you're too narrow minded to see them.

Especially for someone whose entire knowledge of the Contras is limited to Nintendo. :P Eri: Caring about now does no good if you don't care about the last ten years. Patrick's again right in my opinion about Bush's definition of us and them. We point to Saddam's attack on Kurds, yell about him slaughtering them after the Gulf war (remember before the war when he used CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON KURDSIH VILLAGES AND WE DID NOTHING), but turn a blind eye to our buddies the Turks who just use conventional weapons on their own kurds. Weapons they got from us, of course. Now, can you please understand why some of us cannot approve of Bush's rhetoric, even though we recognize something must be done? Sheesh.

Nate told me to think for myself yesterday and you in return copied him and told me the same thing today. I called whats his fuckin' face a redneck yesterday and you in return copied me and called me a redneck today. Who now do you think should think for himself? You just agree with who ever and what ever sounds best at the time and might make you look better. Your a brown nosing tag along suck up and I can tell you this and mean it with every ounce of my being...you are a traitor and you dont belong here. Your a disgrace and a very very very sad and sick human being...not me. I've heard better singing from a dying fuckin' cow Nate so just shut up.

Nate, I give a fuck, but I'm a realist about about how much effect I can have at this moment. I'm content just to help all ya'll fuzzy thinking bastards sharpen your thought processes and see things clearly. Your stoopid ass opinions are your own business. :P Is there a good fondue place in London?

Yes. And, about anthrax.

I can't even compliment you, Pat, without you arguing with me...damn

I can't even compliment you, Pat, without you arguing with me...damn

Even better anthrax site

Yes, I am a war monger. What of it? Is it not my right to have my own opinions? Is freedom of thought no longer allowed in this country? I still don't care about the last 10 years. I choose not to dwell on the past. It doesn't help me any. I choose to care about now and care about tomorrow and grow. Locking myself in a mental cage and getting pissed off about how things were done wrong or how they could be done differently doesn't change what happened. Yes, Trace, you cannot even give someone a compliment on this site without being argued with. Sad, too. There are a lot of people who I respect here. Of course, I think there are some raving lunatics, too.

If I'm so narrow minded, than why is every step of our military actions over the last few days being displayed for the entire country to see but never a word about this Iraq crap? Because as usual you are all over reacting and exaggerating to things that mean virtually nothing. And to think that your employers actually waste their money paying you people while you write all this insignificant bullshit all day. If I didnt care so much for my family, I would just sit back and hope that we do nothing like the rest of you and let the Sept. 11th tragedy get lost in my memory somwhere and pretend it never happened and wait for the next tragedy to happen so I can forget about that one too and all the rest of the tragedies to come until there is no one left. If we dont retaliate and show them that we're not going to take our people being killed, thats exactly what would happen and I am not supportive of that at all and never will be. We're doing the right thing, the only thing and one day you will see that. I'm not even going to touch the nintendo thing. Thats more up Patty's grade school alley but I would love to know how much more you know about "Contra" than I do? Naaaa, nevermind because the nintendo outburst pretty much made me skeeve you and anything you have said or will say. Kinda like the kid in elementary school who always had snot running out of his nose. Ewwwwww, YOUR creepy. Kinda nice using other peoples lines.

sorry trace, there was no argument in that post. didnt mean for it to seem that way. i appreciate your compliments anyway. your mature reaction is at least more reassuring than dani's words, the rabid pit bull she is. generally speaking dani...and i think most would agree, that your posts at this point haven't commanded the respect of they bytes they take up. so if I overlooked any names you may have called me yesterday, so be it. your words though, are indentical to ignorant red rhetoric i heard growing up in the south. Baseless, isolationist, with no regard for human life, and absolutely no regard for the past and the lessons it teaches, and CLEARLY no regard for the future. Narrowminded blathering that makes aboslutely no sense. My 3 year old buddy H is capable of putting together more intelligent sentences. If anything dani, you are a prime example of why there should be more state federal aid to educate people. Please, for the love (insert whomever) send your kids to college far away. don't bother responding here, im going to the other thread.

especially since you, Dani, show an embarassing low degree of reading comprehension, since the "contra" remark was a reply to trace. Try to remember in your frothing rage that sometimes people's posts to the last one they read don't immediately follow it due to other people posting while they are writing. Please don't tell me that you really think that the news is telling us everything that is going on when they even are saying they AREN'T telling us what is going on. Stick your head back in the sand, won't you? Let me know what other thread, patrick,I'm bored of debating with these rabid fools calling themselves "patriots." Damn, wish it were a bar. Wish you could make it to NOLA.

I grew up in New York you fuckin' spasticated moron. I've only been here in Florida for 3 1/2 years. I never claimed to be a very educated person but it does not take education to have your own opinions and outlooks on life and furthermore, my life is great and I didnt need a whole shit load of education to get a great life. Your so fuckin' educated that your peddling sweaters on the internet. Remind me to NOT send my daughter to whatever educational institute you attended. You know as well as I do that you WILL come here and read this before you go on to another thread so that last sentence of your last post was total bullshit, just like most of everything else you say. And as far as most agreeing that my posts at this point haven't commanded the respect of the bytes they take up, you'd be surprised at the several e-mails of support I have gotten over the last couple days. Think before you speak, asshole. Oh yeah, by the way Mr. Educated, look up...your spelling and typing sucks. Your sickening, Patty.

yeah, me to man. id love to get outta here for a bit.

Dani, I want pictures of you, please. Not to manipulate and put up on some website. Just so I can see what you look like.

Oh yeah Dougie? And what reason would you possibly have for wanting to see what I look like? Are you looking for another reason to try to insult me? what the hell is the big deal in seeing what I look like? I am an ordinary, normal, AMERICAN looking person and I have no problems in sending you my pic for I have nothing to hide. But just remember, what ever you throw at me, you will get right back. Go ahead and manipulate it and throw it on some web site if you wish, I dont care. Would you prefer the XXX pics of me or just a regular one? Check your e-mail.

(and by AMERICAN i mean WHITE, with a can of the RED WHITE AND BLUE in my RED BLOODED AMERICAN HAND, you SPASTICATED MORON.)

i AM American Indian.

I did NOT make that post and I have no idea who Danilicious is and I have no idea what they were talking about. Kinda like the name though.

Rosebud! Rosebud!

Not me either. Why dont you just say what this is about.

Ok, I confess, this has all been one big hoax. It was I who posted the last couple of posts on this thread. I'm actually a normal, intelligent, American woman. I was just having fun here playing a Roseanne/Archie Bunker character trying to infuriate you. I mean, if I know what Rosebud signifies to Charles Foster Kane, and how that might be applied to my spurious posts and how I might feel about them on my deathbed assuming I was my alter ego writing said spurious posts, then obviously, I'm not the mean-spirited, degenerate witch I was pretending to be. It was a nice ride while it lasted, but for now, I shall bid you all adieu.

That was totally rediculous. Just plain stupid. I honestly dont know what to say. Clearly you were trying to be smooth and bright ( try harder) but you, or anyone else cannot unfuriate me so what was the point to that little show? And why would you want to infuriate me? Sad you guys had to resort to this lame behaviour. A nice ride while it lasted? Sure was a short trip I guess. Danilicious? that meant what exactly? Using my name and my e-mail address? Coward?

Calm down, sweet cheeks. They're just having a bit of fun.

If thats all it takes to ammuze yourselves and have fun, carry on! I didnt know any of you even had a fun side to yourselves. Quite refreshing and you couldnt have found a better alter ego! I'll be sure to tell him that he's in all your thoughts and fondly remembered!

I feel ill reading so much ignorance. People are dying right now in our World simply because of where they were born. Don't you get that? How can you ever justify killing on that basis, even in revenge? Was it started when the US supplied the first missile to Israel? Or did it begin with the day Osama Bin Laden oozed into the World? I don't know and neither do you, not matter how much you postulate and prance around a message board believing you understand an inexplicably complex situation. The hijackers who steered a plane into innocent civilians may have lost their family to American-supplied weapons. Now we retaliate by killing more of their families. They will strike back and it will go on and on. All I know is that no one will ever win this war and we had better get used to that idea.

I wish I could remember the biblical quote from last weeks West Wing. It started long ago. And will take a miracle to end. But, no matter what the reason we, the U.S., must act directly in responce to Sept. 11th. We can not allow the killing of inocent civilians in our country to go unpunished. Direct millitary action is the only way. So far only 10, I believe, civilians have died as a direct result of all the bombing in this action. That is an excellent number!!! To bad it cann't be zero. And be glad this action is now and not twenty or thirty years ago when smart weapons weren't around.

That is an excellent number, but it would be nice if it was a zero. I am glad that we do have smarter weapons now than 30 years ago. I agree that direct military action is the only way, I just wish there was another way. In a perfect world maybe. Then again, in a perfect world, this wouldn't be happening.

They are burning their food packages.

"A French journalist has been paraded through streets of Jalalabad as townspeople hurled stones at him. Michel Peyrard was arrested in Afghanistan after secretly entering the country disguised as a woman."

they said they would treat journalist as American soldiers.

well, i'd say that's one fucked frog.

yeah....just wait until the turkey shoot finally brings down an american jet. just wait until one of our american made stingers pops one of our jets. it won't be long before its an american being stoned and paraded like that.

I heard on NPR that she'll be tried as a spy.

thats funny and sick at the same dougie. considering its a man.

"I am glad that we do have smarter weapons now than 30 years ago." Pity we don't have smarter people.

Exactly what was the frog trying to do? Is a story really worth that? Let's see, maybe I'll get a pulitzer before they stone me to death?

he was a journalist...its his job. its not so much about the pulitzer as it is serving public interest and bringing the truth to light. i think the American public needs to see pictures of what we are doing. Especially if we are indeed clusterbombing them. Of course that would be counteractive to our government's interest. Or, the fucker could have been spying, posing as a journalist, posing as a woman. you never know.

i heard 76 dead. i saw one news story that interviewed a 16 year old street vendor who lost a foot. could be worse, i know, but imagine having your own foot broken off. makes my butt pucker.

punishment is a lie made up to allow us to act like 5-year-olds and get "revenge."

Eri, you are a fucktard. This journalist you so decry is a braver person than you will ever be. Not all of us sit on the sidelines waiting to be told what to think, you know. If you like the safety of your living room, fine, but don't fucking sit and preach from your sofa of ignorance.

The Sofa of Ignorance. Is that the diametric counterpart to the Bucket of Truth?

cat, dont be so nasty. she was just voiceing her thoughts.

Eri,Trace, cat is a journalist. Id react the same way if I were a journalist. It was a dumb thing to say. majority of journalist are not out to soley get that pulitzer anymore than the vast majority of doctors or scientists are out for that Nobel Peace Prize. People generally have more integrity than that, especially if they are willing to put themselves in harms way.

Cat is the only person in this discussion who has enough perspective and first hand experience to be nasty. She's probably the most world wise person on this board. Compared to her, the rest of us don't know shit on this subject.

So, no one else is allowed to say a damn thing? In that case, no one else is allowed to day anything about the military, since they do not work for them.

no trace just expect that when ignorant things are said towards one's profession someone MAY get a little testy, rightfully so.

Then expect me to be nasty when you are saying ignorant things about the military, and intelligence planning. You have any idea what happens before the action is taken? Or do you just witness what happens and comment on it? You are entitled to comment on it, and I am entitled to disagree with you. And what I may do may differ from what another person in my same position may do. What motivates me may not motivate my counterpart at Ellesworth AFB. Same goes for any profession. And as far as journalist goes (at least in the US) I think we can all agree that some if not most of them appear to be bent more on sensationalizing events and stories, and embellishing them, to make them more appealing and exciting.

BTW: I am not trying to pick a fight here, While I understand that Cat has the right to be irked (SIC?) over the comment, I have the right to be irked over hers. And you have the right to be upset over my comments and I have the right to be upset over yours. That is what makes this board interesting. But calling my wife a fucktard will get my hackles up a little, everytime.

what exactly have i said that was ignorant or wrong trace? You didn't even know about our use of cluster bombs dude. And as far as journalist go....your opinion appears to be based soley on crap ass American media. So no, I can't say journalist are bent on sensationalizing events. Thats a shortsided comment to make with little or nothing to back it up.

All I do is secure the information, and make sure it gets passed along electronically in a secure fashion. That includes plans that change on a minute to minute basis. What I transmit one minute may not be what happens the next

The only reference I have seen to cluster bombs (BBC and AP) has been the plan to use them to hit military camps and troop movements/convoys, like we did in the Gulf War (and we all remember what that looks like). However, I did hear on NPR that the bunker-buster bombs they are using, they are NOT using to hit buried targets but surface targets, such as camps and military bases, simply to drive home the fact that our ordnance is fucking scary.

CBS: American warplanes dropped cluster bombs which disperse hundreds of bomblets over a broad area as well as 5,000 pound bunker-busting bombs in an attempt to dig the leaders of the Taliban out of their hiding places. Strikes have killed some members of the Taliban, but its leader, Mullah Muhammed Omar, and Osama bin Laden are believed to still be alive. http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,314355-412,00.shtml

But we have filled 300 civilians, I don't feel good about this.

oops,killed.

those cluster bombs are made about 10 miles from my house at the iowa army ammunition plant. i toured the place but they wouldn't give samples. my brother worked there and they have some cool stuff.

also they think that anthrax may have been made in an iowa lab. hell, i thought nothing fun was happening here. maybe i hang around the wrong crowd.

Hey F.B.,how was Mexico?

"But calling my wife a fucktard will get my hackles up a little, everytime." If you can't take the heat, stop smoking the crack pipe. And somehow Trace, I have no difficulty believing you are an expert on military intelligence. It is an oxymoron after all. ;) Say "G'day" to Powell for me next time you're chatting. (p.s.: Pantiphone, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm just as ignorant as the rest of you fuckweenies. The only diff is that I speel better)

I did not say I was an expert, or see Powell. I just transmit the data and ensure it's security...

Trace, do you actually read some of the data that gets sent, or do you just set up and keep the encryption system running that keeps the data secure?

FB: where'd you go in mexico?

damn, i meant to post that "australians are better at insulting" thing on this thread.

Damn, I meant to post that "texans are bigger fuckweenies" thing on this thread.

Cat, I am sorry if I offended you. I was trying to get inside the mind of the jounalist and understand why he did what he did. The only information I had to go on was what was previously posted on this page. In my lack of information, I worded it very much the wrong way and I am sorry. I am really starting to get concerned about the loss of civilian life. I don't understand how killing civillians or even the "terrorists" families will "put them in their place". I think these actions will only fuel their rage, and justify it as well. How do you stand up for wrongdoings and stand up for your beliefs without killing innocents? I wish I knew. My beliefs are pretty simplistic. An eye for an eye. This is not what is being accomplished here. We as Americans seem to be doing more killing than I ever imagined, and I very simply don't understand. I don't understand why or what makes this right.

oh shit, an eye for an eye--! americans are fucked under that policy. best get your starving ass to the sweatshops, missy! your kids too! unless you have some girls under 10, we can sell their sex to business men! you know, Mohandas Ghandi and all that. barbaric.

Eri, send Nate a nakey pic of you (not Trace..ewww) and all will be forgiven.

Sorry Cat, I have never had nakey pics done. I am too worried about my scars. Kids can screw up your body. In a couple of years, I will be buying bras from the same department as my daughter. I want implants and a skin graft. Then maybe I will be more of an exhibitionist. Nate, I never said it was a good philosophy, just simplistic. I could be wrong (like it would be the first time), I am still very concerned about the loss of life. There has got to be some better way.

whenever i read "mohandas ghandi", i get the urge to hear lonesome bulldog by the butthole surfers. eri, you're a mother. wear your battle scars proudly.

Thanks, but battle scars create insecurities. I was working as a professional model 9 years ago. I guess I need to get over some of this vanity, bu t I actually feel unatractive now. I see lines around my eyes, and have a nasty scar that makes it so that I have to wear Grandma bathing suits to cover. I guess I just think my battle scars would make me look like a chick in a cheap porno flick. "Dirty Housewives" Maybe, I should just do it and take some dirty pics, and maybe I would get over it. I dunno. At least I can say that I have been pregnant 7 times and I am still a size 2. For those who are looking for pics. Thehixons.8m.com is the family website. Last I knew my play pics were there, so you can see me in costume and my two miracle babies have pics up there too. I am almost done with the book I am reading now. I am a book a holic. I never stop reading, in fact, I can't go to sleep at night without reading. I am tired of what I have. I read mostly sci-fi fantasy novels. Or horror novels. I have the complete warlock series by Christopher Stasheff. I am looking for something a bit more cerebral, but not beyond my ingnorant level of comprehesion. I don't like technical books because I don't understand them. I am looking for something new. Something a bit more cerebral. Any suggestions?

have you read the hyperion trilogy by dan simmons? or anything from the culture series by iain m banks? excession was pretty good. "desolation road" by ian mcdonald was pretty entertaining as was "scissors cut paper wrap stone". roibert silverberg's the face of the waters and kingdoms of the wall. motherfucking "snow crash" by neal stephenson. anything by neal stephenson. forget the porno stuff/nudie pics. relax. you'll always look better than some and worse than others. it doesn't have to be a competition.

Thanks Dave, but I don't think I am in competition with others. I would just like to be happy with myself again. Not that I have a lot that I complain about. I am mostly just insecure about my scars. Maybe, I'll get over it. Thanks also for the book suggestions. I appreciate it. Aside from the arts, reading is my favorite hobby. I read a book recently that was the journal of Hitler's wife. It started when she was about seventeen. It is amazing how someone can be so into material belongings and have no value on life itself. It was a trip. It is sitting in my basement somewhere. I can't remember the title right now, but it was an interesting read, though often monotonous. Or at least predictable.

don't put yourself down. attitude is 90% of everything.

I hear ya on the scars girl..I had a c-section at age 21 when I had my daughter..wait, on my GOD...that means someone actually mated with me..wow, total mind blower right there..what are the odds? anyhoo, and I had a motor cycle accident when I was 16 so I have this big dent looking thing on my left forearm. And my second step father stabbed me with his little Uncle Henry pocket knife when I was 14 so I have this scarred up hole looking thing on the back of my left arm. I used to be real self conscious about my war wounds until I realized that all 3 nasty looking scars were caused from a result of me having a child, which is awesome, me trying to get to the hospital to see my sister who had just been in a car wreck and the only available vehicle was a motor cycle, and me trying to stop my step father from tearing my then 2 year old brother out of his crib to go to the race track at 10:00 at night after he polished off a bottle of whiskey. So, after all my babbling, the point is that I decided to not have the scars medically covered up because they are part of my life and who I was and always will be. Your a great person on the inside, where it really counts, and thats all that matters.

aww, now i'm bummed, dani. there wasn't anything in that post to tease you about. i'll try to get over it.

I sure hope your not losing your knack for teasing Dave. I'd surely miss it. I'll bet if you tried real hard, you could muster up something to tease me about regarding that post. I got faith in ya. Dont be bummed.

Thank you guys. I appreciate the support. I try not to be too hard on myself, but Trace always says that I am. Maybe I should let go of the California, you're too fat, you'll never be one of the beautiful people mentality. The most beautiful people I know don't fit the classic definitions anyways. I'll try to be more secure in my scars. Speaking of attitude being 90%, Nate, you would be proud of me at nite clubs, I am the belle of the ball. Besides, I have two intelligent beautiful children. That's something to be proud of.

I have 3 kids and two grandkids,scars fade awat,trust me.

all this touchy feely goody shit is makin me sick.

Don't worry patty. We love you too. If you want, I have some pepto I can give you when I invite you over for cookies and milk :)

pepto just makes the puke pink.

I'll have you all know that Dani is quite attractive,and her child is a little doll.And she seems to have a pretty damn good sense of humor. Patrick,I'm worried about you.This crazy world crisis has us all on edge,but try not to let it permeate your sensabilities,or your gastro-intestinal functions,for that matter. :) And theres nothing wrong with having something as comforting as cookies and milk,when one needs the reassurance of a sense of "safety and normalacy". I commend Eri,as one mom to another,on offering such a well needed comforting gesture. I would be pleased to come and have cookies and milk with you and your family.But what can I bring?I make a mean potato salad,maybe we could do a potluck?

actually a sack of weed would suffice.

Patty Patty, weed only makes me paranoid, I'd rather some good booze. Potluck sounds like fun. The morer the merrier :)

you've GOT to stop with the "patty", and Im only asking you because with the other goofs...asking them would only exacerbate the problem. im confident by asking you to cut it out you will. now if your pissed and we're arguing or something its fair game. but in the every day non vehement banter..."patty" has to go.

You got it.

Patty you suck. Does that make you feel any better? :-)

And he says that I am a smart ass. Love you honey.

for those of you who tossed around the word "traitor" or "unpatriotic" the other day....read this. a pretty sensible, short column. http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1001-03.htm not trying to stir the pot. this wasjust brought to my attention. further, that senate bill passed...the Anti-Terror Bill. we're fucked.

Patrick, God Saves

And I'll have you all know that CZ is quite attractive and has a little doll also. And I adore her sence of humor. I'll bet she's a blast to hang out with too. Being that I was one of the people tossing those words around the other day, I for one have no interest or desire to read any of the hundreds of links that you post,um, Patrick. Or does Patty apply here. Whatever, you choose. That conversation is now old, boring, and quite "tiresome." The present and the future interests me, not constantly the past. Not to stir anything up though.

and thats why you are an idiot. you choose to live in a cave. some extracurricular reading would do you good.

ah doesn't need enny fancy links o' readin' materials. ah live in th' now, not in th' past. Thsoe futuristic links t'readin' material thet may ejoocayte me jest scare me.

Actually Dani, believe it or not, it is a good link. It defends freedom of thought, which is very important to me. I have noticed a lot of "he who shouts the loudest wins" philosophies when it comes to politics. I disagree with that. I believe in educating yourself, and thinking it thru and coming to your own conclusions (i.e. freedom of thought) and this supports exactly that. The more I learn about the anti-terror bill, the more it scares me.

it passed the senate. BUH BYE!

The Senate, but not the House. there is still a bit of a chance. Thanks for the link, Patrick.

I got a form e-letter from Sen.McCain today that says he'll get back to me later.

Calling me an idiot is not going to change the fact that no matter what it is that YOUR teaching, I do not want to learn, Patty.

no of course not. im not teaching anything. im sharing with peers things i find interesting. now go back to your cave and try reinvent the wheel.

Oooooo, big words from a little boy. Any suggestions on what I can do with the wheel after I reinvent it?

Dani, do you really want to leave that door open? It is almost like asking for an insult. Even i could come up with smart ass comments for that one.

Well, Dani, as your reinvention of the wheel would turn out to be square, you could use your newly invented wheels as blocks and put them under the tire-less car that's sitting rusting in your front yard.

Dani, if you insist on being a poor citizen, that's your right. It's too bad, but oh well. IT really doesn't serve your country very well though.

good point. an uneducated, ill-informed closeminded civilian ignorant to US history is a bad citizen. a pathetic patriot, no?

Here we go again. Opened a can of worms Dani, here it comes

I'm always open for a fresh can of worms. Not a problem. As far as a rusting, tire-less car in my front yard. Would you prefer the wheel to be placed on the Eclipse, the Continental or the family Navigator. Or perhaps I should just put it in your Chevette on your little lot in the trailer park, Dougie. I was thinking more along the lines of a square wheel being placed on your sqare head but I'm always open for suggestions. And as far as you saying anything to me about MY country llama - fucker, you have NO right to put your spot of tea thinking ass in anything to do with my country. And as far as me being uneducated and an ill-informed citizen. I will never ever turn my back on any decision that my president makes. He is doing the best and RIGHT thing for my country and no matter what you traitors say, I'm proud of my country and whatever decisons that are made for the future and well being of my country is appreciated and welcome. 6,000 plus people died in my country and no one gave 2 shits about the innocent men, women, and children that died with NO warning. We have given those fuckers warnings and they CHOOSE not to acknowledge them so let the leaders of that country allow their people to be killed without even trying to help them but I can tell you this...if and when more people die in my country, it wont be because my president had no regard for their well being. It will be because our job at stopping terrorism isnt complete yet. But it will be because I have all the faith in the world in my country and we WILL come out the winners in every way, shape, and form. Shame on any of you Americans that doubt your own country's ability to be the strongest in the world. Sucks to be you. This "JINGO" has spoken and no one or nothing will ever change the fact that I am an American woman with my own thoughts, opinions, and goals for a peaceful world for us and our children. To fuckin' bad if anyone dont like it. The anti terror bill that was passed...GOOD. I'm glad. I will not bow down to you people and your beliefs just to keep the peace here or have someone be nice to me. Not now, not ever. So bring on whatever crap you want but I'll always stand up for what I believe in. I am however not in agreement with Bush wanting all American children to donate $1 to the Afghan children. Instead, why dont our childen give their dollar to the homeless people of NYC living on park benches and eating from garbage cans. Or to the American woman who is dying of cancer and cant afford proper medical care. Or to the NYC city school distict infested with caving in walls and rats. THATS what I believe in. Like it or not, I dont care. And no, none of you have managed to offend me or make me mad or put me in my place. That'll never happen but keep trying. Maybe one day you people will say something that makes sense. I doubt it but there is always hope.

We have tried feeding an extra dollar here and there into local MO school districts. This is corporate America and when you give an inch they expect a mile. It hasn't helped. Kansas City School District still has not gotten accreditation. Still failed EVERY SINGLE test on the last round. Feeding extra money into the schools won't help one bit. It is the people who need help, and intelligence will help them far more than money. I don't think that would help. Dani, have you actually looked into the anti-terror bill, or are you just putting blind faith in it. It could very easily turn your neighbor against you and land lots of innocent people in prison. It all but encourages nosy neighbors to stab their friends in the back and I personally think that it will feed a racist frenzy and religious frenzy. I do not think that whether or not we will win this war is plain as day to us. I don't think that anyone wins a war. No one wins a fight. I hope that we are able to come out of this well, and continue some matter of the life that we once knew. History shows that with every war, America has lost liberties and freedoms. I don't see how anything is going to be different. Don't get me wrong. I agree that there should be action against the terrorists, but giving up precious freedoms and killing innocent people isn't an answer that I am comfortable with. I said from day one that this war should be handled like brain surgery, very well planned, expertly executed, with care and delicacy to invoke the highest amount of effectiveness. Going like a blind dog after a bone and not asking a single question, it isn't going to help you. I believe that you do have good intentions, and you want what is just and right, but all of our leaders are human and capable of mistake, just like you and I. It is our patriotic duty to help them to see what they are doing and to keep them in check, at least as best as we can. If we don't stay on top of what is happening, then we could very well be opening the door to a Trojan horse.

Yes I sure have watched, read, and listened to the new anti terrorism bill and I strongly agree with it. I do watch TV and listen to the radio and surf the news sites on the internet and everything I have seen and heard sounds like good steps in the right direction for my country. I could go back and forth on the subject until the day I die and the outcome for me would be the same. I believe in what we're doing and what it stands for. And there will be a winner. I'm not talking about our country killing more people than their country killed ours. I'm not talking about tit for tat or what comes around goes around. That would be petty and cruel hearted. I'm talking about putting a stop to them invading my country and killing my people. If they are eliminated, than they cant hurt and kill us anymore. And those who are not eliminated might think twice before they try and eliminate us. If not, we'll eliminate them too until we are safe and secure once again. We are not safe until they are stopped. I do have good intentions and I am not a blind dog going after a bone and I dont have blind faith about anything. I feel what I feel and see what I see and know what I know and for that I am human. Capable of thinking for myself and forming my own opinions. Thats what America is all about. Freedom. So let the wire tapping and the detainments and the bank account freezes of those fuckers prevail and I will have a better country in the end.

that's the spirit!

I am not saying that we should not do anything to stop them. You should know that by now. I am saying that once we get one there will be another and another, and will we ever be safe and secure again? My fear about the wire tapping and detainments and account freezes is that they could be turned on us when this is over. I didn't see or hear anything that would make it so we were protected from the same things they intend to do to "them". I don't believe in tit for tat, and I never thought that you did either. I am just worried that the way this anti-terror bill was written, it could backfire on us or our children one day. After all, even with the best of intentions our government is corrupt. I don't care if their accounts are frozen or if they are detained, but I sure as hell don't want that to be me or my family or friends. I also don't have the faith that if Bin Laden is taken out then there won't be more. I don't think it will make them think twice, because they don't value their lives. I think it will fuel their anger and make more rise up. This wasn't intended as a personal attack on you. Just questions on your point of view and your awareness of the situation.

I didnt say anything about you attacking me. I know better than that. It's not your style. I was just giving my opinion on some things and they were not directed at you Eri. I honeslty do believe that when all this is done, whenever that may be, that we will be safe and secure again. I dont know about anyone else but I am tired of walking on eggshells and tired of being afraid of opening mail from a strange return address and tired of wondering if a scratch on my leg is going to turn black and itch come to find out that I'm an anthrax victim. And I'm tired of making plans to DRIVE to New York instead of flying as usual because I am to afraid of who the fuck is on that plane with me. I'm afraid to even stick a little weed in my pocket when I leave the house so I can smoke at the bar in fear of some fuckin' security check somewhere. Yup, maybe I am paranoid but I think given what has happened, I have the right to feel safe and secure. Maybe I dont want some nasty bitch's fingers going around the inside of my jeans waist for security measures. I dont want the plane that I'm flying on to be chased to the ground because some sick fucker decided to draw a picture of a knife on his throat. I just dont feel that I have to constantly be questioned about my education and knowledge of the world that I live in. If I didnt know anything or feel anything, I wouldnt be posting here. I wouldnt care what the fuck did or didnt or wont or will become of my country. I do care.

And why the hell are we still posting on this huge long take freakin' forever to refresh page anyway???

start your own thread. diy

we are now on the ground

For what when there are tons of other threads already started? DUH.

no kidding trace. this was on the news 8am MY time. son you arent getting any advance news....

well, I have been away from the base since tuesday, but they were getting the troop carrier ready then, it had not taken off yet

I just realized that this last post was done while I was staying home to be with Eri while her Grandma was in the hospital. God, what a year.

Oh the rigors of being first... Anything happen yet today, ten years later?