| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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look at afghanistan. |
in the meantime, lets talk about hottie lebanese protesters. whoa |
1. How long did we wait until we had international agreement on our actions? 2. Did we target Al Queda and Taliban targets AFTER multiple requests for Bin Laden, or did we target HOMES, Businesses, whatever moved? 3. Did we not drop tons of food for the civilians to eat since UN releif workers could not get in? 4. Did we drive through the towns, rap on doors with automatic rifles in middle of the night, and drag people out in the street? 5. Did we fire (intentionally) rockets at cars with civilians inside it to get one terrorist (who was only injured, while the three year old boy was killed)? Big HUGE FUCKING difference. I do not deny that the suicide bombers need to be stopped. I do not deny that the militant palistinians should be routed out. I beleive, however, that Palistine should be treated as a soveirgn nation, and Israel should not be allowed to roll through town with tanks and bull dozers any damn time they feel like it. |
Were we waiting on international agreement or were we getting our ducks in a row militarily? "2. Did we target Al Queda and Taliban targets AFTER multiple requests for Bin Laden, or did we target HOMES, Businesses, whatever moved?" yes and yes. "3. Did we not drop tons of food for the civilians to eat since UN releif workers could not get in?" Its widely known that this was a farce and didnt really accomplish anything. Its not really something we should put on our resume. "4. Did we drive through the towns, rap on doors with automatic rifles in middle of the night, and drag people out in the street?" Im sure we did and will, even domestically. The biggest difference is we did not occupy Afghanistan. We do not occupy Saudi Arabia. We do not occupy Yemen. We have hurt the Iraqi people with sanctions, but none of the terrorists were Iraqi. When you've grown up under Israeli occupation, had your brother, father, grandfather and uncle all killed or injured by Israeli military, your sister shot at, and your Mom can't get water to feed your baby sister....its not that difficult to strap on a canister of nuts and bolts with some tnt and blow some people up. |
Oh, and as far as growing up under israeli occupation, both sides have blood on thier hands. both sides are in the wrong, but it is still wrong to level entire towns with a bulldozer and a tank. Yes, the US has definately made mistakes. And we have done things in Afganistan that you will never know about, or at least until the foia time runs out. But, we did not sign any cease fire agreements with the taliban, and we did not and do not bulldoze houses down so we can put up a fence. |
But you understand..Israel OCCUPIED Palestine. Yes they both have blood on their hands. But how did the blood comeabout. Any occupied country will resort to "terrorist" means. |
if we didn't have international support, would that have stopped us? (didn't bush say you're either with us or you're against us?) aren't we key on attacking any country who harbors terrorists? (that was why we attacked afghanistan, wasn't it? afghanistan didn't attack us on 9/11-- osama is a saudi. afghanistan just wouldn't extradite osama to the US without proof of crime, which is something ANY 'soveirgn' nation has the right to do.) this isn't about legality nor is it about morality-- it is about protecting a way of life. it is about protecting the freedom of a people. american or israeli, all we're trying to do is make sure terror does not strike our people in the future REGARDLESS of how we treat the rest of the world. |
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i'm not sure its that simple. Vietnam used terrorist means, as well as traditional military means to get us to leave. That didnt justify our presence. Clearly the Israeli solution isnt working. |
if this is the case-- where are we different from israel? i'm not making a statement of who is right or who is wrong. i'm just saying we're both doing the exact same thing- killing people for the sake of our respective security. remove all the factors that rise from the difference between fighting a 'war' against 'terrorists' who reside in a country half way around the globe and a country which borders your own, and you have zero difference. we want oil, israelis want houses/water/land. we both want security for these resources. do you deny the need for a jewish state? |
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don't do that again i guess you better create your own country because there might not be one that hasn't done that at some point maybe move to finland |
see nate, this is where i get stumped. On one hand I say yes. On the other, I say, but wait, whats the situation on the ground? In the instance of the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, its a tough call. Their tactics are that of freedom fighters, but they don't offer a clear leadership to give diplomacy a chance. Arafat at least is a recognizable leader in identifiable political structure. al Qaida is a bit different in the sense they don't have a public leadership, with identifiable leaders. Everything is secretive and illegitimate so to speak. We aren't occupying Saudi Arabia like Israel is occupying Palestine. We have never occupied Iraq like Israel has occupied Palestine. These are the key motivations for al Qaida, or so its reported and widely acknowledged. In this regard, the two wars on terrorism are different, in my mind. You could also say Arafat wants peace, land, water etc for his people, just as much as Israel. No, i don't deny the need for a Jewish state at all. trace try not to be too sensationalized. Im sure we could produce pictures of equal magnitude from Afghanistan and Iraq as a direct result of our military. |
Yes, Isreal does have the right to be a nation. Palestine has the same right. The killing has to stop. |
The Arab nations have created the perfect human shield: the Palestinian people. They're perfect because they're willing to do it. Most would rather die than give up their land. They're martyrs. Their martyrdom urge could have been deflected if the other Arab nations had absorbed them into their respective countries, but they did not. But the Palestinians are not the only martyrs in the conflict. There is definately a streak of martyrdom in Jewish culture, expressed in the attitude that they're always beset on all sides by enemies bent on destroying them. Centuries of persecution has both created this belief and caused it to be perpetuated, caused the Jewish people to seek out a situation where they can be further persecuted. It's like this is an abusive family. The Arab nations are the abusive husband. Israel is the abused wife whom you always wonder, "Why is she still there? Why doesn't she just leave?" The Palestinian people are the child caught betwen the two, who bears the brunt of both the father's and mother's abuse. He's a tool of the father to get back at the mother. He's a target of the mother's frustration and anger at being abused herself. The child fights back, but not actively. He slowly commits suicide, cutting and burning himself to death while his parents watch. And none of them knows how to escape. None of them knows a way out. |
our gauge of right or wrong is simple: if you buy american weapons, you're in the right. |
should people have the right to move freely without fear of being blown up? does it matter if that explosion is caused by a missle from an apache or a bomb from the belt of a teenager? if mexican suicide bombers were blowing up neighborhoods the children of your family play in, do you think our reaction would be as restrained as the israelis have been? |
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But my ties to the land are not that strong. What do you want to do? What should the US do? I think we should stand back and let this play itself out. Or should we? This has been going on for, what, 3-4 thousand years? Is it about land or religious differences? Revenge? The answer is not that easy, if there is even any answer. The Jews and Muslims and Christians cannot live peacefully together. They never have and they never will. There is no answer. No side is right. No side is fully to blame. The Palistinians were not always under Isreali control. But, the isrealis did slowly move into palistine, and then claim most of that land as theirs. then proceeded to build settlements in the land that was set aside for palistine. Arafat is a puppet. Not sure who is pulling the strings, but I promise you he is not acting on his own behalf. mabye saudi or iraq, or lebanon. who knows? palistine is just being used. and yes, i think iraq, palistine, afganistan, lebonan, iran, maybe saudi arabia, egypt, yemen, they all have something to do with Islamic Jihad/Hamas/Whatever. I dont have the answers to the questions you asked me nate, do you? does anyone? we got ourselves into this by getting in bed with the saudi's, kuwait, ISREAL, etc. We have already made the mistake of getting involved. Now I fear we (the US) will be a permanent guest in this party of death. |
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it would be like some outside governing body giving the puget sound watershed to native americans as a sovereign state and then having maybe china or russia supply the means for this newly created state to keep the united states taking back it's land. either israel goes away or it makes the arabs go away or the intifada continues. it's pretty fucked up. |
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If you were to apply business methods to the US, then it makes sense. |
the zionist movement had already begun after a series of pogroms (jewish persecutions) in russia in the 1800's. the first coherent form was hoveve-zion, formed by students there. it supported immigration to palestine. an austrian jew named theodor herzl developed a political form of zionism - the creation of a jewish state - after his experiences as a reporter covering the dreyfus affair (looks this up) in france. a british scientist, statesman, zionist named chaim weizmann (spellings vary) convinced the british to issue the balfour declaration in 1917 which supported the creation of a jewish homeland for the jews in palestine. it was included in a league of nations mandate which gave britain control of the region in 1922. thus began the arabs battles against a jewish state, and severe fighting broke out several times in the 20's and 30's. the british mandate recognized the jewish agency, which represented jewish affairs in the region. jews began pouring in from all over the world, building an economy and cultural center. by 1939, the british began restricting the immigration of jews into palestine to gain arab support for the allies ww2. the palestinian jews, who were allies, fought this. in 1947, the british submitted the problems of the region to the united nations, and the u.n. approved a partition of palestine into a jewish and arab state. as i understand this, britain was wary of this and said "only if that's what arabs want." but the zionists proclaimed the state of israel in 1948 and truman recognized it as a nation, thus beginning our involvement. |
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