| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
|---|
|
you need to be a news jockey or something. i knew you'd be the first to post of this. its too early to comment, other than its a very very very sad event. space is the place and any setback in getting there is a cosmic tragedy |
|
As someone on NPR let slip shortly after Morning Edition host Simon interrupted their rerun feed, this was the first shuttle mission in "many years" to be devoted to a strictly political purpose (i.e. put "the first" Israeli military person in space.) He was on board to operate a "phone booth size 'camera.'" This "camera" was "operated" within the shuttle's cargo bay (not deployed as an Israeli spy satellite, mind you) by the Israeli test pilot on board for the strictly scientific purpose of photographing desert dust storms "for monitoring the 'health effects' of such storms." A political mission is one for symbolic purposes (like the first teacher in space) for which goal the ill-fated Challenger launch was pushed forward in too cold weather over the objections of Morton-Thiokol technicians (those who designed and built the exploding Solid Rocket Booster responsible for the crash.) My theory at the time was that, had the launch succeeded, there would have been some sort of split-screen salute during the gipper's State of the Union address to pioneer teacher/astronaut Christa McAuliffe. Reagan himself did not personally push the premature Challenger launch but the poor old guy was getting mighty nervous about having nobody for show-and-tell and having just swept 49 states to get re-elected with absolutely no election promise EXCEPT to put a teacher in space. His minions could not help noting their boss' urgent need to deliver on that promise. (by the way when I propounded the above story idea via telephone, there being no internet in 1985, directly to All Things Considered's then "news editor" Robert Seagull he congratulated me for having "good reportorial instincts") As Mr Hussein will surely soon point out, the Israeli Colonel chosen to go out into the cargo bay and "operate" that large camera (Israeli military technology being too primitive as to develop a remote shutter release) was involved in bombing the Iraqi research reactor and preemptively shutting down Saddam's nascent nuclear program in the early 80's. Not wishing to deal myself the a-s card, G Crocodile |
I have been getting all kinds of calls. Everyone wants to know of we are allright even though this was like a 5 hour drive north of us. It's so sad. If we still had our flagpole (they aren't allowed here so we just have little flags) then it would be at half mast. I feel horrible for the families who had to watch this on the news to find out their loved ones are dead. Horrible. I wonder what will happen next, what ramifications we will fee because of this horrible accident. I guess only time will tell. |
If so, why did the guy have to go out into the cargo bay to operate it? A camera could be operated by remote control . . . can't it? It's easier that way . . . isn't it? It could've been a conspiracy between bush and sharon - the ultra arab hating primeminister of israel. the phone booth sized one time only use camera supposedly preloaded with film in israel and to be brought back to isreal and its "film" developed to aid in the study of the "health effect of sand storms". . . ?! The spring loaded launching device to deploy a phonebooth sized satellite could also have contained a self-destruct device for the shuttle so that the entire shuttle crew would be sacrificed to forever eliminate the possibility that any one of them might have, sometime during his lifetime, reveal that the phonebooth sized device is still up in space, ready to drop who knows what on who knows where and who knows when. That might be bush's "solution" to North Korea. Bush has said "i loathe that man" The spring loaded launching device that remained in the shuttles cargo bay could have contained enough explosive to destroy the mission without even the knowledge of the zionaut who operated the launcher. Unlike pre internet space missions during which astronauts "phoned home" to their delighted families, personal space to ground communications have now been restricted to e-mails. There was never an opportunity for anybody on board to "phone home". in other words, prior censorship became possible. Its the most plausible explanation to be considered besides the shuttle just being too old. Let's hypothesize for a second that the phone booth sized device that was built in israel, taken up to space on board the space shuttle as supposedly a camera to study dust storms and to be brought back, like the worlds largest disposable camera Is it possible a satellite was secretly launched that was designed to drop who knows what on who knows where on who knows when with "no fingerprints". Such a satellite could not have been built in the united states. Both bush and sharon could not let anyone survive EVER to Tell the story that the phone booth sized camera was actually a satellite that was deployed. . . . . . to have the capability of dropping bombs from space which is STRICTLY prohibited by one treaty that bush does not want to break publicly. |
especially since war plans have been released to members of the "mcLaughlin group" that u.s. war plans call for inducing "AWE and SHOCK" by unleashing 500,000 cruise missiles (cost: $20,000,000 per missile) and 500,000 casualties in the first 48 hours. neither i nor anyone i know under the age of 65 has any health insurance. if there is a god, what would he think? |
this is fucking ridiculous paranoia. are you guys fucking retarded? |
|
jeeze. is no one surprised that in well over 20 years this is only the second one? i would expect at least 5-7 more in that amount of time. c'mon, these people, while sad, were fucking astronauts. i just get really annoyed at the thunderstorm of sentimentality this country shits out at things like this happen. people die, for equally noble (and less dangerous/suicidal) causes all the time. you know with the presidency comes a magic buttom under the executive pillow that makes these kinds of things happen. bush cashed in on his second use of such a button. illuminati all the effing way. he's just getting you primed with patriotism, sacrifice, duty, psuedo-honor, pride and watching the teley 24-7 again for the bitchin light show over Baghdad coming soon. in honor of the 7 dead cosmonauts who id like to believe shared my vision of leaving this planet and bringing peace to the universe a la jean-luc picard, im bringing the cosmic sounds of sun ra, putting a wine hat on, and inviting all you silly kids who dont know the dead cheerleader to stop crying in the hallways. space is the place shiznits all we need is a monkey co-pilot. |
And you wonder why I think you hate this country? The US is the only one with a space program as advanced as ours. The Space Shuttle is as big an American Icon as the Statue of Liberty. And it is a god damn noble cause. And fuck you, for shitting all over this because your hatred of bush runs so deep, you cannot see anything else. WHat would you expect a president to do? And your beloved clinton did not "feel your pain" everytime someone got the sniffles? What makes me sick is the fact that the only time you hear anything about the space program is when something goes wrong. |
Get a real job you bumb. I have had my own health insurance policy since I was 20. Yes, I pay for it, and that is the way it should be. I also pay for Medicare and medicaid. What your problem is you don't want to have to work for it, pay for it, or earn it. You think you are entitled to it |
|
In reality the people within NASA, the contractor who built the solid rocket booster (which is recycleable)had warned that the freezing temperatures before take-off that day would keep the rubber O ring from sealing properly. . . but the promise was to "put a teacher in space" . . . Before NPR decided to be careful about what they said the phone-booth sized camera was indeed mentioned. and that the Israeli guy was there to opearate it, it's scientific purpose being to see what the health problems would be from dust storms by taking pictures of them with a telephone booth sized camera. .as if they don't have constant photos from the weather satellites. Just don't see the need to have a manned camera go into space for photographing Dust storms when they have un-manned satellites taking photos of every sqare yard of the earth's surface every day. Check the Saturday morning NPR archives . .. hope it hasn't been edited out. They only revealed today that the cargo bay had a unit in it the size of a 15 passenger van, or a little larger for the purpose of these people on board.It seems now unlikely that the phone booth sized camera was released into space. . . but why photograph dust storms, could be to photograph areas around the middle east in exquisitely detailed detail. because the space shuttle orbits at a low level. |
Listing a series of mishaps with shuttle missions since 1999, Nelson warned in his letter that Nasa management and the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel have failed to respond to the growing warning signs of another shuttle accident. Since 1999 the vehicle had experienced a number of potentially disastrous problems: · 1999 - Columbia's launch was delayed by a hydrogen leak and Discovery was grounded with damaged wiring, contaminated engine and dented fuel line; · January 2000 - Endeavor was delayed because of wiring and computer failures; · August 2000 - inspection of Columbia revealed 3,500 defects in wiring; · October 2000 - the 100th flight of the shuttle was delayed because of a misplaced safety pin and concerns with the external tank; · April 2002 - a hydrogen leak forced the cancellation of the Atlantis flight; · July 2002 - the inspector general reported that the shuttle safety programme was not properly managed; · August 2002 - the shuttle launch system was grounded after fuel line cracks were discovered. Manned space flight may not be economically sound. For now. But they should continue. Humans have always been explorers. Discovery is in our biology. If we stopped exploring, we would loose interest. Curiousity. Life would be almost pointless. The chiefs just need to be much more safety minded |
I just feel badly for the families that were watching the television and that is how they found out their families are dead. I think it is a horrible way to find out. "If we stopped exploring, we would loose interest. Curiousity. Life would be almost pointless." Sorry honey, but that was funny. All I could think was "Space. The final frontier. These are the voyages of the star ship boobyprize." |
|
you silly monkey, you can't go a thread without playing the clinton card. i reserve the right to admire the us space program and the ultimate quest for the final frontier (your wife gets it) and be cynical bastard at the same time. doesnt mean i have no less respect for those involved, or the the united states of frickin 'merica. turn off your tv, play some neil young and maybe smoke a joint or have a couple of Coors or whatever it is you do. cant you picture the Columbia zipping through a celestial worm hole with "southern man" blaring through giant speakers like Lt. Col. Kilgore did ? |
The pictures, taken with a Nikon 8 camera on a tripod, reveal what appear to be bright electrical phenomena flashing around the track of the shuttle's passage, but the photographer, who asked not to be identified, will not make them public immediately. "They clearly record an electrical discharge like a lightning bolt flashing past, and I was snapping the pictures almost exactly . . . when the Columbia may have begun breaking up during re-entry," he said. The photographer invited The Chronicle to view the photos on his computer screen Saturday night, and they are indeed puzzling. They show a bright scraggly flash of orange light, tinged with pale purple, and shaped somewhat like a deformed L. The flash appears to cross the Columbia's dim contrail, and at that precise point, the contrail abruptly brightens and appears thicker and somewhat twisted as if it were wobbling. "I couldn't see the discharge with own eyes, but it showed up clear and bright on the film when I developed it," the photographer said. "But I'm not going to speculate about what it might be." Source Yes, I can. Only I would play "Magic Carpet Ride" |
It was obviously shot down by hostile UFOs. Geez. Probably piloted by Reptilians. The astronauts probably saw something they shouldn't and the aliens zapped them. Trace, that was sarcasm, by the way. Someone on the subgenius yahoo group had a good way of looking at it. He basically said that if you are going to die, what better way than in a manner that the entire world will take notice of? Everyone dies. Might as well make an impression. Eri, why no flagpoles? That sounds weird for being in Texas. |
Thanks for asking. Bastards. |
Did you hear anything saturday morning? We kept getting warnings on our weatherbug to not touch any debris |
|
One guy (on the other side of the creek from us) had a full sized flag hanging on his patio like a curtain and they made him take it down. This complex is just fucked in the head. Bunch of flaming idiots. Thank God we are getting transferred soon! Sorry I didn't call to check up on you Antigone, but I haven't heard of any debris falling deaths yet so I figured you hadn't died and your house hadn't burned to the ground yet! |
|
We have always had flags since we lived in Sugar Creek (approx 5 years ago). Our flagpole isn't one of the huge ones that stand outside businesses. It is smaller than that. It attaches to the house itself. I was pretty pissed when I found out we couldn't use it here, because it isn't big enough to hurt anyone or anything. Maybe some texans in the area are offended by the American flag. Who knows? Maybe the managment here is just anal. |
its not the flag per se, they are just being consistant with the appearance. if they allow an American flag, whats to stop them from allowing any other kind of flag. aesthetics. every apartment bldg i've lived in has that rule, though loosely enforced. |
and I have seen a few people who have put up the flag poles that you mount on the side of a wall, and they have said nothing about it. I think they just choose whom should follow the rules and whom should not |
|
|
|
why are you surprised by this moonit? we have a national day called "Flag Day" in which its not uncommon to see houses with flags posted outside them. most are as eri and trace have, a bracket mounted on the side of the house or something w/ a flag in it, sticking out at a 45 degree angle. national holidays like memorial day (in memory of all the veterans) Veterans day (whats the difference?), the 4th of july, Labor Day and any other patriotic holidays are usually met with people putting their flags out. my grandparents have done it religiously as long as i can remember. |
|
|
I"m not the only nut about the UFO thing: http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/skies/skies4.htm One thing will always be true: There is no shortage of sheer idiocy in this world. Eri, I had an image of you ataching the flag pole to the building, and the weight of the pole causing the side of the building to fall off. |
hmm |
|
|
we say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning in school. Or at least we used to. "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all." |
does that count? this whole Columbia thing just confuses me. Why did this happen??? how could this happen??? ...How about because it's a fucking ROCKET in SPACE, that some dudes welded together and filled with highly explosive fule. God knows how they even get them off the ground without blowing up Florida daily. It's a flying bomb! We can't even make cars properly. Are you surprised? At all? Ever? Nor do i understand why humans should go to space right now anyway. No one seems to have a proper answer for that either. |
"What your problem is you don't want to have to work for it, pay for it, or earn it. You think you are entitled to it" i'd say that everyone is entitled to good healthcare without having to pay for it trace, but just try telling that to the companies that run your country. |
especially in a country like this one where the cost of government is $7K per person. you need to report $39K taxable income to pay $7K, which means a lot of people are relying on other people's efforts already. 'entitled'. shit. healthcare costs money! who's going to pay for all this healthcare? |
If you can get it for free, what is the quality going to be? What is the doctor's and nurses and administrator's motivator to ensure your stay at the hospital is a good one? Why should a doctor make sure he does the best he can? If he is mediocre, and the excellent doctor gets the same government controlled wage, why should he work harder? No thanks. Same goes for drug companies, family doctors, etc.... I hate to do this, I really wanted to keep the "conspiracy" thing out of this, but recent developments in Nacodoches, TX has me really thinking.... This news is very new, but here it is. Nacogdoches, Texas has now been named a Federal Military Aircraft Staging area, and is being patrolled by black hawk helicopters. The FBI is raiding a person's house who picked up a piece of the shuttle. The military is out looking for pieces of a "black box" that up till now it has been denied it even existed. |
the space program or how 'bout a war in iraq which is going to stir up a lot of hatred. why don't you go back to watching your porn on the i-net and stop being such a brute.. your mind is at half-mast. How much do you pay for healthcare? oops, I forgot, military families are entitled to free healthcare. why don't you go to new orleans and dress up in a klan outfit. the brothers will fix you up with a big emergency room bill. |
i pay $150 a month for health insurance. i'm not military, dumbass. and your implication that i am racist doesn't even make sense. |
divide and conquer is a drag. resorting to name-calling and stuff. . it's not fun. |
"If you can get it for free, what is the quality going to be? Why should a doctor make sure he does the best he can?" "If he is mediocre, and the excellent doctor gets the same government controlled wage, why should he work harder?" one could argue.. because it's their job? because they spent 10+ years training and countless thousands to learn how to do said job? Because they give up normal life to do this? Because it's fucking hard to become a doctor? Because if they don't people will die? Believe it or not, some people are doctors because they want to help people, not just to make fat gobs of cash. Paying them on a controlled level may even weed out the ones who are just there for money. And because they get paid a controlled wage, they're under more pressure to do better. More reason to monitor them when a whole country is their boss. And don't think that being on a controlled pay rate means shit money. Our doctors are still crazy rich. But even the poorest minimum wage mother of 6 in a one bedroom appartment on welfare can see the best neurosurgeons in the world if she needs them. Any system that prevents this is bad. That's my point. |
You can get free healthcare if you are prepared to wait. I pay $26 a month for hospital care. |
I wish there was some way to weed the doctors who do it for the right reasons away from the ones who do it for the money, but I don't know if socialized medicine is the answer. I haven't found the answer. I have had so many bad experiences with HMO's and getting the proper care from them that I am scared, really scared of going in, because 99 out of 100 times I won't get what I need and neither will my kids. Within one year of getting away from HMO's Hayley was a normal child who had the surgery necessary to make her healthy again. She could run and play and do everything that a normal kid does which is something she missed out on for the first 4 years of her life because her HMO was too busy treating the symptoms and not fixing the problem. That is what they do with me. I have people argue that I can't get a hysterectomy because my I am too young and why would anyone remove a healty uterus. Tell me what is healthy about a uterus that is covered in tumors and won't carry 5 out of 7 pregnancies past the first trimester? What is healthy about any aspect of that when it comes to me? NOTHING. I get so sick of idiots telling me I will have a shorter life span if I get the surgery I need. I would rather have a shorter life with a better quality of life than be in pain and miserable and bleeding like I am dying for 3 weeks out of the month. Even with insurance...it still leaves much to be desired, but how do we fix it? I have had health insurance all of my life, and have never been without it, because I went from being on my fathers plan with AT&T to paying for it myself to working at AT&T and getting it myself, and still I suffer from doctors who don't care to understand or listen. My children still suffer from doctors who only want to treat the symptoms and don't care about the problem that causes it in the first place. The doctors and hospitals are too into what the insurance will cover to actually take care of what we need. The whole system sucks. I can't find an answer that will take care of people properly and I wish that I could. If I had that answer I would say screw the money and just be happy that we would all be taken care of to the best the world has to offer. But it isn't there, that I can find and I don't think anyone can say that their health care system is perfect. Too bad we can't. |
|
Whoever lives in Cali...do you have a copy of todays major newspaper? If you have a copy, can I get one, please? Paul's daddy was quoted a lot in it. He wants a copy, and I would like to see one if any of you might be able to spare todays paper for us. OK on 3rd beer and feeling it. Better go! |
|
Without insurance, they cannot get their license, and once your liscense slips, there is no way to get it renewed. They are not making enough from the insurance companies who make contracts to pay no more then a certain amount for pre-approved procedures. The doctors have a cap that they can charge for these services. So, their cost goes up, but income stays the same. And in the meantime, my cost for health insurance goes up by 25% this year. But if they are not paying doctors more, then why should I pay more??? This is socialized medicine, and it is failing. Wether you have private health insurance, medicaid/medicare, employer "provided" health insurance, does not matter. It is still the same system. |
There was something else that caused the shuttle to disintegrate |
|
the $10 aspirin is not a joke. When ths stock market goes down the insurance premiums go up. The insurance companies are one of the most prominent institutional investors. |
because its a capitalist system open to market fluxuation!!! working for a major pharmaceutical company, i was exposed to the argument of drug prices, both sides. the drug companies like to cite all the costs of research. while valid, to an extent, they are still companies out for profit and will pad their asses as much as they can. the company i worked for makes mad money, threw exhorbant parties and had posh benefits for their employees. fine. great. but having "team leadership seminars" in the caymen islands (true) means some old man can't afford his heart med prescription. so. the US is paying the most per capita for health? Is that because we're so god damned generous or the capitalist system elevates it to such a level? malpractice insurance is up there, as homeboy says, because of a slipping stock market. a cap needs to be put, nationwide, on malpractice suits period. no doctor should be denied practice because he can't afford exorbant malpractice insurance. thats garbage. trace this isn't socialized medicine, what you speak of. this is medical practice at the mercy of a weak market and capitalism. the medical profession should not be affected by a weak economy. like dave said, capitalists are heartless fucks. thats fine when dealing with gold, bonds, pork and all other kinds of tradeable commodities but the practice of medicine should be outside that realm. |
now the health system is a system of fixed payments that doctors can charge, while the health insurance companies/dept of health can raise the premiums/lower the coverage amounts. Doctors are told by insurance providers and the government what pills to prescribe, how many and how often, as well as what procedures to allow after how much red tape is cleared. Eri cannot get a hystorectomy (i am sure that is not spelled correctly) until she goes through certain procedures and tests proscribed by the insurance carriers not doctor recomendations |
in order to make more money. Pharmaceutical companies push their pills on doctors, offer incentives etc. I can't verify what role the government has in pill prescribing process other than the FDAs role in approving drugs....which is a vast, lengthy and costly process. Insurance companies ARE a product of capitalism trace. they are a part of the problem you yourself are advocating. limiting insurance company's role, malpractice caps and such are ideas born out of socialized medicine. |
How many people do you think go to the doctor (not ER, but family doctor) without any insurance? |
|
Look, my healthcare is through aetna, and my insurance is 6.39% of my gross, and my fed taxes are 6.55%. I hate to think what they would be if I claimed married at the higher single rate. I think it comes out to about 27%. I cannot afford that every month. So I had to claim 4 dependents, and still get a healthy tax refund. My income tax is just about right, I have little to complain about there, but the healthcare was at 5.37% in December and now has jumped to 6.4% If my pay had gone up by 1% that would be fine, but it has not |
i have great healthcare. i think i pay around $143/month for Kaiser HMO and about $10-20 a month for Met Life dental. Thats including the mrs. Co-pay is $10, even a trip to the emergency room and most prescripts are $7.I think delivery will cost us $250 assuming all goes as planned. My regular dental visits are free. All of the prenatal visits (as of January 1) are free. I may change to Blue Cross once the baby is born because it looks like it might be a cheaper hit on my pay check, but more expensive should i require hospitalization. All my healthcare is routed through a cafeteria plan, so its deducted pre-taxation. Everyone's healthcare has jumped. Every company's budgets have been ripped to shreds these days. Everyone is tightening their belts. The collective hot potato is being passed around. Your healthcare is victim to the current economic climate, which IS the problem some of us have been saying. |
|
|
what are state taxes? I live in Calgary Alberta (Canada) currently and pay 37% in taxes on every single cheque, that may or may not entitle me to a refund at tax time every year. that % is divided up by the provincal and federal gov. to their liking and really has no effect on me, its gone either way! When I lived in Ontario, my taxes were 41%, but thats cause the province wanted more $ and had added an extra little to the gross deduction.(and that says nothing about the 8% sales tax {provincal} or the 7% sales tax (fed.)) AND to cap it all off, Iam 'statistically' classed as 'the working poor' or middle class, depending on whos study you read. ARRGGG. governments make me so mad!!! Oh yeah, health care here is not free, as so many people 'round the world seem to think. I, like all of you, also have to pay blue cross, or whomever, as well as cover expenses out of pocket if i got the wrong coverage plan. (of course no-one asked, but i felt like venting) |
....gha? Because you live in Alberta, Kev. It's different. Your healthcare went semi-privatized because some evil dudes went into power there and fucked all of you in the ass. What the hell do you pay for now, anyway? (other than the usual dental, Rx drugs and glasses??) |
|
|
Alberta health, cost individuals, at least $64.00/mnth, for families there is a slightly reduced perperson charge (not a fam, don't know exact) and blue cross is about $65/quarter. all of that only covers basic medical, no dental, almost no optical, maybe 2/3rds drugs (if they're on the list) etc etc. Oh to have Ontarios health care everywhere., and i don't know for fact but i have heard that BC is even worse. |
|
You hit 27% at 39.5 before deductions 6??? |
6???" wuh? |
$0–$12,000 $0–$6,000 10.0% 12,000–46,700 6,000–27,950 15.0 46,700–112,850 27,950–67,700 27.0 112,850–171,950 67,700–141,250 30.0 171,950–307,050 141,250–307,050 35.0 307,050 and up 307,050 and up 38.6 so I was off a little |
i'm still not sure what you're talking about. |
you including your cats in that? |
my 6 deductions compensate for the big chunk of mortgage interest i write off each year. so that i net more in my paychecks instead of giving the US government a free loan. |
|
their martyrs: go straight to heaven. . . . . . . . . . . . .(an ayotollah said so) our martyrs: get wreaths, yellow ribbons and bouquets on their homes. their martyrs: get their families evicted and their homes blown up - not necessarily in that order. our martyrs: get all the crisp, sunday best flags taken out and put at half mast while the media puts the people's minds at half mast. their martyrs: get their pictures diplayed in shop windows, cafes and if a funeral is allowed, on placards at those events followed by tear- gassing the procession. |
|
they were not persecuted and killed for their beliefs. They died in a tragic accident. The suicide bombers are not martyrs you idiot. they kill themselves and take out others in hopes of changing the religion of the survivors or reduce western cultural influence or incite others to kill because they feel persecuted. and in most cases, the suicide bomber's family gets checks from other governments. |
Cite your source, please. |
1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion 2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle 3 : VICTIM; especially : a great or constant sufferer <a martyr to asthma all his life -- A. J. Cronin> Columbia astronauts fit definition #2, methinks. They faced the possibility of death because they believed in space exploration. They sacrificed their lives for their beliefs. Suicide bombers probably identify with definition #1, I'd wager. I'd bet they feel like their religion, their way of life, is under attack. So, they both fit definitions of "martyr." I'm not saying I agree with the tone of the croc of a post, though. |
|
|
does it have to be "someone"? Can it be any opposing force....say physics? |
|
|
|
|
|
Ya cain't take issue with something I ain't doin'. |
You can't be a martyr without man vs. man or man vs. society conflict, is all I'm saying. |
"You can't be a martyr without man vs. man or man vs. society conflict" Not according to the second definition stated above. It places no such restriction. Again, you're placing your own restriction on the term and denying the other interpretation. Why do you want to restrict the definition of "martyr"? Do you think interpreting the word in one way diminishes the other interpretations? I'm not trying to infringe on the definition of "martyr" as in applies to Catholic saints or other religious figures, for instance. |
I was about to concede regarding the suicide bombers being called martyrs. The only thing is that they are trying to kill others in the process, so the focus would be on murder, not suicide, right? |
|
i.e. A person driving their car, attempts to stop the brakes fail, car crashes, driver dies... an accident, tragic yes, but accident still... A shuttle explodes (assuming no foul play) seven people die, tragic yes, martyrs....No. but i think we can all agree to that. my question comes in if you hypothisize that the explosion was the result of foul play (i.e. terrorists, or ???) if the astronauts are now considered Martyrs (this is hypothetical, remember) what would you call someone who is killed by falling debris, from said martyr making explosion? is that just a tragic accident?, or are they too now martyred? (read Martyr to thr cause of science) |
|
You don't get in a car because you believe in something related to driving. Unless you're trace in an SUV. :) But, astronauts rarely take their job just to be a working joe. It takes more dedication than that, and they are driven to do it. It may not be just the science, but the quest to explore. So I see the Columbia astronauts as martyrs, not just to science, but to the human need to find new frontiers. They believed in expanding human potential, both in the physical (out into space) and intellectual (science) senses. That was what they were martyred for, in my view. |
|
|
|
But shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore said that after a careful study, "It doesn't make sense to us that a piece of debris could be the root cause of the loss of Columbia and its crew. There's got to be another reason." Now, NASA is casting a wider net. Other possibilities abound, from an accidental triggering of explosive devices on board to a collision with a piece of space garbage, or perhaps a flaw in a wing that caused the spacecraft to swing out of control and disintegrate moments before it was to land. In one of several factors being examined, investigators have noted that during Columbia's descent, its automatic control system struggled to maintain the craft at the precise angle required for a safe return to Earth. The autopilot caused the craft to rapidly move its control surfaces — devices like flaps and rudders — and eventually fired small rockets in a vain attempt to keep Columbia in proper alignment. Dittemore said there was something on the left wing — "what, we don't know" — that caused it to catch the wind and drag the craft toward the left. I know what it was!!! It was the creature on the Twilight Zone movie! |
|
|
patrick, you are a freak |
|
Jimi Hendrix was a martyr? |
Not to put this thread back on subject: Meteor 'may have hit shuttle' Nasa says a small meteor or piece of man-made space junk may have struck the Columbia shuttle causing it to crash. Even a tiny scrap of debris grazing the shuttle could have damaged thermal tiles just enough to start a chain reaction. The comments by Milt Heflin, the space agency's flight director, cast doubt on the lead theory that a piece of foam insulation damaged the craft during blast off. "Did we take some hit? That's a possibility. Something was breached," he has told the Los Angeles Times. Mr Heflin said his engineers have no hard evidence Columbia was struck by a piece of space junk or a space pebble, known as a micrometeor. Nasa takes great care during missions to avoid the man-made objects, from ejected payload shrouds to tools left behind by astronauts after spacewalks, that are in constant orbit. William Ailor, president of Aerospace Corporation, said Nasa has had to adjust the flight path of shuttles at least eight times to avoid large pieces of debris. A speck of paint once chipped the windshield of the Challenger during a mission completed before it exploded in 1986. There are believed to be more than a million objects within 1,200 miles of the Earth's surface. Anyone who knows me knows I am not a eviro-mental. But dammit people, we have only been in space what 40 years, and we have already thrown trash out in the yard? We have a 1,200 mile debris feild around the earth. Seriously, what will the neighbors think? |
Trace, you're going to hell for calling that preacher a freak, ya know. |
photon torpedos. tractor beams. make it so. |
|
Unless you're trace in an SUV. :) " LOL |
|