| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
|---|
Pan's your uncle. |
That's one loose definition of language he's using. |
|
The more I think about this, the higher my left eyebrow gets. |
|
|
Fifty years ago we didn't type on computer keyboards "in the wild." Didn't mean we couldn't do it. |
The fact that chimps have the capacity for language reminds me of the fact that some Hindu yogis have mastered the ability to control their own heartbeats and can basically put themselves in suspended animation for long periods of time -- yeah, we *can* do that, but in ordinary circumstances, we don't. Chimps *can* develop a rudimentary language and symbolic understanding, but in their ordinary chimp lives, they don't. But what the hell do I know? Animal Planet is my chief source of primate knowledge. :) |
Did you invent the keyboard? No, yet you use one just fine. You did not use the keyboard until someone taught you to. Chimps have the capacity to use language. Do they have the capacity to invent it? Possibly, but those two capacities can be completely seperate. "Chimps *can* develop a rudimentary language and symbolic understanding, but in their ordinary chimp lives, they don't." You say my analogy is invalid at the beginning of your post, then you justify it at the end? Yer givin' me argument whiplash! |
Take space travel. Maybe humans have the neurological capacity to invent a vehicle that will allow us to travel to another galaxy within the timeframe of one earth year. We certainly can't do that now. If an alien showed up and gave us the specs for the vehicle, we couldn't claim the technological advancement for our species, because the thoughts behind the specs are way more advanced than what we are capable of at the time. If it doesn't come to us naturally (spontaneously, within the framework of our daily lives), we can't claim it for ourselves. You can train dogs to dial 911 for their owners. Does this mean that dogs have reached the stage in their evolution where they can communicate via telephone? No. The telephone is alien to them, and I'm arguing that language as humans use it is alien to chimpanzees. |
However, on the "alien" point: Chimps can clearly use sign language to communicate complex ideas. Humans who have no ability to use their vocal chords also use sign language in the same way. How can you say that chimps do not use language in the same way humans do? |
Europeans introduced many technologies to aboriginal peoples around the world. Are those technologies also "alien" to those aboriginal people in the same way? Would you say a Native American can't really drive a truck because his ancestors didn't invent it? |
I don't see how that's relevant. If I cede that point, what difference does it make? |
"I'm arguing that language as humans use it is alien to chimpanzees" Based on what? Animal Planet? I think the point is about classification, where chimps belong based on nuerological and genetic structure. It seems to my untrained mind that researchers are finding that observable behavioral similarities are grounded in particular structures that make them more human than ape. Language as anyone uses it is alien to everyone at some point. |
what I meant was, it makes them homos and not pans, like what the first article said fucking gay monkeys |
I'm saying if you want to say that chimps share a lot in common with us, "including language," I want to see a more compelling argument for that particular similarity than what I have seen. I was being facetious with that Animal Planet reference -- I did take two Physical Anthropology classes 6-7 years ago (intro level), and I don't remember anything that said that chimpanzees had anything that could be seen as more than the barest, most rudimentary form of language or symbolic understanding. Not enough to say casually that humans and chimps have language in common. Social/family structures, anatomy, DNA -- yes. |
And what evidence would convince you? A chimp saying it loves it's pet kitten in sign language? |
I figured you were kidding. It's still more than I know about any of this. But back to the point of language? In the most basic sense, what do we use language for? Reproducing society? Culture? Does monkey language enable apes to reproduce their (what would it be) environment? society? in a way that is analogous to humans? Does monkey language shape monkey consiousness? What then would constitute monkey consiousness? |
Can Apes testify? if language is the only thing separating us then, should mutes be considered less than human? :) Where did language come from, then? If it's biologially tied into our heads, which it is, and our closest cousin has the same structures, which they do, then maybe the difference is not as great as previously thought. There's a school of thought that says that modern human language developed after we achieved our present physical forms, which accounts for the cultural explosion that occurred about 40,000 years ago and has been going like gangbusters since. |
I define language as the vehicle of the communication of discrete thoughts and ideas, with grammar and vocabulary, understood by any reasonable member of the given society. This is close to the Merriam-Webster's definition. |
But, I would consider mutes to have language if they can use sign language or write. |
Given that definition you could discount all of the nonhuman test subjects who have been taught sign language because they are "atypical" (unreasonable) members of their "societies." (species) |
And an ape that uses sign language is what, exactly? |
|
examples of monkey language." http://www.koko.org/ http://www.ling.lancs.ac.uk/chimp/langac/LECTURE4/4asl.htm http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/psych26/language.htm http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030328.html |
A language that we could translate. Probably not. There goes grammar and vocabulary? But communicating thoughts and ideas? Not complex ones, but can monkeys teach each other how to use tools? But then, what would separate that from little monkeys simply mimicing the actions of older monkeys? I hate it when I can only think in questions. |
Like I said before, the capacity to perform a behavior and the ability to spread that behavior are not the same thing. Besides, you're straying from your own definition of language as "as the vehicle of the communication of discrete thoughts and ideas." You've expanded it to the ability to use that vehicle to alter the behavior of others, specifically to communicate the usage of the vehicle itself. This is a far more complex behavior. It's also a behavior that's beyond the ability of most humans. Could you teach someone else how to speak if they didn't know how? |
Urg. Typed too quickly. Of course you could. Kids learn from their parents all the time. :P Maybe a better example would be the space ship analogy. If we were given that space ship by aliens, and we were just smart enough to use it, but couldn't tell other humans how to make one themselves, would that mean we didn't have the capacity of flying space ships? No, it would only mean that we didn't have the capacity to tell others how to make one. There's a difference. |
Now, the fact that chimps can put sign language together in novel ways and make sense to us is very promising. Something's going on in their brains, no doubt...they're intelligently and self-consciously aware of themselves, their environments, etc. I don't deny that. But I don't care. Unless Jane Goodall stumbles upon a band of chimps in the wild who sign (or something similar) to each other without ever having seen humans, I don't care. |
I understand as well, but that goes beyond your own definition for language ability. A chimp could easily have language ability, but not to the level he could use it to teach another chimp to use language. "Unless Jane Goodall stumbles upon a band of chimps in the wild who sign (or something similar) to each other without ever having seen humans, I don't care." Why not? That's a pretty narrow view. Even if chimps are not able to, on their own, develop language, it doesn't mean that studying their human taught language capacity is not instructive. Consider the human situation: possibly there is some trigger, societal or physical, that put us into a critical area for language development. Possibly the chimps are below that critical area and all we have to do is find the trigger(s). Teaching chimps to use language would be a way of exploring their abilities and see what happens when their ability is artifically increased. |
Is language natural, or artificial (cultural)? Is something that is cultural, unnatural? I think that the original point of the article has been lost, here. No one is saying that chimps are humans. They aren't, obviously. So of course, they aren't going to have ahuman language. However, what is being argued is that they belong in the genus Homo, and truly are our first cousins, somewhere around the level of Homo habilis, I would think. I mean, it's highly unlikely that Homo habilis, and even Homo erectus, had what we would consider a human language. However, both species were capable of complex behavior and in the instance of Homo erectus, were capable of making fairly complex tools, build huts and may even have been able to make fire. None of this requires complex language. Heck, paleoanthroplogists are divided over whether Neanderthals could speak! Yet they are still all Homos. (hee hee hee hee) |
I would think DNA and GENOME sequencing would classify the genus species. |
Homo=genus, sapiens=species. of course, after thinking a bit more about this, i realized nobody addressed bipedalism as a possible defining trait of Homo, so there you go. |
They're so much like dumb bratty little kids, but hairy loud kids who will never grow up or learn anything. icky things! |
|
ok. i don't have a punch line, but god damn if such a joke would be tops right about now. |
Giant Chimps |
|
|
Are you talking about little kids or monkies? Because i think that can apply to both. Especially the shitting part. Evil ! I hope for the pleasure of one day meeting Shannon, as long as she's not a chimp in a sundress and a staw hat with a flower on it, because if she is... screw her. |
You guys would totally get along. She is a pop culture fanatic, although she's not into cartoons so much. That's my job. |
:D here's a story about kids- i went to Wonderland last sunday with a few friends, and in line for a ride there was this little 5 or 6 year old girl who was watching me intently as i tied up my boots. She pushes past her mom's legs and crawls under the lineup railings to get beside me, just to shout out: "YOU look like a BOY!" "guh?" "YOU look like a BOOOOY!!!" *giggle* "oh, thanks." (i do not, in fact, look like a boy. I have a girly face and hair down to my hips. Not to mention a girl ass. It's all the army surplus that threw her off. Happens a lot. But to girls that age in little pink jumpers and tights, i guess i look like a boy) she's not going away.... a minute later: "YOU look like a BOY!" "uh-huh" *poke pokes my leg* "YOU look like a BOY!!!" "Well, that's okay. See, my boyfriend looks like a girl, so it's even!." with that i motion to Rowlf, who gets called "Miss" all the time until people see his face, because his hair is long-ish and bleached. I think he hates it though. Anyway, the kid was so confused |
|
|
|
wisper. rowlf wisper rowlf wisper+rowlf i must be out of the loop. |
|
|
|
|
no, just perhaps a little less observant then a few other people here.... |
|
i think. |
|
|
|
Nico has not been drug into this pit of hell yet. |
-some guy |
|
Patty has an office job, he needs us. I like it better that way, keeps her mysterious. |
|
The Pandyr came here once, but you all yelled at him (it was in one of our many breakups), and now I think he's too scared to come back. Which is good, cause otherwise he might find out how much I paid to get him some Almond Joys. |
shes not web savy enough to bother. . she doesnt really understand the idea of a BBS. its 'chat' to her and for that she thinks im silly. when things start arriving in the mail, she thinks im really silly. |
So now, I think they should leave chimps where they are. |
|
|
ba-dum-dump! |
|
|
|
|
|
My thoughts - all creatures have a "language" which they use to comunicate to others of their kind. It's what we are communicating that sets us apart from birds and fish and chimpanzees. |
Politicians and Lawyers would be some of the most athletic people around. Gotta put on my talkin' shoes. |
|