| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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Listen here. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1852178 Also, in today's LA Times, Patt Morrison (no relation) has an equally convincing, insightful column on the matter. I post the text as LA Times requires registration. Thoughts please. Honor Those Who Die in Uniform, Don't Hide Them Patt Morrison They'll be burying Thomas Steiner this morning. They'll be burying him in the tan uniform of the California Highway Patrol. He was wearing a uniform last Wednesday afternoon, when a teenager looking to make his bones with some gang of thugs stepped out of a red four-door Nissan older than he is and allegedly fired three shots into Thomas Steiner. The teenager was shooting the uniform, not the man. But it is the man they'll be burying this morning. If Thomas Steiner's services are conducted with the sorrowful choreography of those who have gone before, we will have the crack-and-slap of rifles being shot and shouldered in salute; the flag, folded in a sharp, starched triangle, laid into the arms of the widow. Thousands of cops will be there, and hundreds of public officials, and dozens of news cameras. All of us will be able to bear witness to this public exhibition of a public loss, and to reckon the price of public service. Imagine multiplying this one death, this one grave site, by more than 700 lives, 700 coffins, 700 flags, and you have the ranks of American military killed in Iraq. You will have to imagine them, because you are not allowed to see them. I am looking at other coffins, under the same flag. Spread across my desk are black and white news photographs of soldiers' bodies and soldiers' coffins. February 1965: The American ambassador to South Vietnam watches services for eight dead soldiers conducted alongside the plane that will carry their bodies back home. April 1967: Medics hustle the bodies of dead Marines from a Vietnamese battlefield to a waiting helicopter; the coffins and the flags will come later. March 1951: Rabbi, minister, priest and politician walk past the unmistakable shapes under the stars and stripes, the bodies of Los Angeles' first soldiers killed in Korea. September 1954: Flag-wrapped coffins are lifted by winch from the deck of a ship, as Army, Navy and Air Force men salute. February 1942: Three months after Pearl Harbor, the coffins of dead sailors rest on the deck of a warship, beneath the outstretched hand of a priest and the long barrels of guns. September 1942: Soldiers in dated doughboy hats stand before a long row of coffins of men killed in the Battle of Midway. And June 1945, two months before the war's end, a photograph that you cannot see without tears filling your eyes: a San Diego Marine colonel kneeling in the dirt of a foreign land, praying alongside the flag-covered stretcher bearing the body of his son, killed on Okinawa. Democracy has no more public act, no more shared event, than going to war. The pictures on my desk are the proof of it. So why is it that some aspects of this war in Iraq are still being conducted as furtively as a mugging? The nation took a body blow on Sept. 11, 2001. It stood ready to sacrifice. Instead, it was encouraged to show its patriotism by hitting the mall. No knitting socks, no rolling bandages, no gas rationing. Heck, we got a federal budget that whacked $400 off child-care credits for the working poor but dangled a tax credit as big as six figures in front of the self-employed who bought the biggest fuel-sucking SUVs they could lay their driving gloves on. And to perpetuate that demi-war, neat and antiseptic, we have a president like the MSN butterfly, flitting on ahead to shield us from truths that may be unpleasant or ugly or painful. Last Veterans Day, I wrote about the first Bush administration's 1991 edict banning photographs of coffins returning to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. After decades of iconic pictures of presidents, heads bowed, standing at the coffins of the American dead from Beirut and Panama, Kosovo and Nairobi, the lens cap was snapped back on. But last week came the photographs of coffins in the belly of a home-bound plane, pictures taken by an American military contract worker in Kuwait. After the photos were printed in the Seattle Times, the company fired her and her husband. A few days later, a Tucson man who uses the Freedom of Information Act like a crowbar to pry loose secrets he thinks shouldn't be secret opened his mail and found an official government CD-ROM with photos of flag-shrouded coffins at Dover Air Force Base. He put them up on the Internet; the Pentagon said they'd been released to him by mistake. It can't be the sight of death, or coffins, or flags that's made the Bush administration so skittish. All three have figured large in Bush campaign ads: the ruins of the mass grave of the World Trade Center, firefighters carrying someone's flag-shrouded remains from the Gehenna of Ground Zero. These other dead Americans, the soldiers, the Marines, the National Guardsmen — they were killed by foreigners, too, and according to the White House, by some of the same "evildoers" who colluded in the 9/11 attacks. Why, then, is the sight of flag-covered bodies fit for campaign commercials, but not for news photographs? I came across a different TV ad from the Bush campaign of October 2000. It was called "Trust," and in it, candidate Bush said, "I believe we need to encourage personal responsibility so people are accountable for their actions. And I believe in government that is responsible to the people." Dear Mr. President: Thank you for that. But when, exactly, will that happen? We bid goodbye to Thomas Steiner today. We will witness and acknowledge the wrenching cost of his public service. He deserves no less honor; we, who hired him to put on that tan uniform, deserve no less honesty. And the 700-some Americans who also died in their uniforms, on duty and for duty — on a street in Fallouja, or a desert road outside Baghdad — deserve both. |
fucking cocksuckers.... i swear my head is going to blo... wait, this makes me feel better. |
fucking cocksuckers.... i swear my head is going to blo... wait, this makes me feel better. |
No matter what the goal in millitary action there is a price to pay. It is a terrible price. But, it is one that must be paid. Freedom is not free. Luckily, in this war we are paying a much smaller price in lives than ever before. Even the Iraqi people are being spared the costs of earlier conflicts. If you want to really see the human cost of this war watch Nightline on Friday. I understand the whole show will consist of Ted Copple reading the names of the five hundered service men and women who have died in combat in Iraq while their pictures are flashed upon the screen. I guess there isn't anything news worthy happening this Friday. |
"The problem with showing the coffins is no matter the number there will be people screeming "the cost is to high". why is that a problem? "Freedom is not free." Iraq is not free. Neither is the US. The point, the pictures of flag drapped coffins are necessary and important to show. If the Bush administration can use them in political ads, the free press should be able to show them in their coverage of the war. see how pathetic this is? im reduced to discussing this matter with watcher. There's so much to talk about and no one is wanting to talk. I guess these hot button issues are permanently out of vogue around here. for shame. |
I can play. "The problem with showing the coffins is no matter the number there will be people screeming "the cost is to high". This is the unfortunate legacy of Viet Nam." What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Are we not allowed to learn anything from Vietnam? And why does wanting to put a human face on all of this, to acknowledge these losses, a legacy of anything other than whatever shred of compassion and respect we have left for the individuals that died for this mess. It may very well be that this is a tool of anti-war/Bush propaganda to demonstrate that the "cost is too high" but even if I were to accept (or simply understand) his statement, "freedom is not free," I would still maintain that showing the coffins drives that point home. I mean, they are pictures of flag-draped coffins, ceremonial images of a soldier's passing. It's not as though the press is manipulating images of a dying soldiers's mangled, bloody body as he takes he last breath of air in order to demonstrate that "the cost is too high." Given that, the only thing that really matters is Patrick's point, that it's hypocritical to ban these images while the Bush administration uses flag draped bodies in his campaign ads. If anything, that point demonstrates that they are trying to prevent us from seeing that the cost IS too high. "Luckily, in this war we are paying a much smaller price in lives than ever before. Even the Iraqi people are being spared the costs of earlier conflicts." Lucky for who? I'm sure the families of those that died sleep better at night knowing this. "Well, at least Scotty was only one of 700." If I thought this was a just war, I might actually agree. But it's not. I'm sorry. That's the best I can do. It's not a good time for me to be discussing or thinking about things that aren't related to my final papers. |
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Like disbanding the Iraqi Army, this has to be one of the more dumb moves over there. |
I just didn't want to appear too naive and idealistic. |
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The UN The Israeli flag actually it uses some of the same colors as the OPEC flag too |
They shouldn't have changed it at all. But I'll reconsider what I said about terrorist baiting...at least with respect to an Israeli like image. porkchop |
again, why the need to change it to begin with? im constantly dumfounded by the seemingly idiotic shit that is going on. |
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They will simply call it hate speach. Then say it isn't protected under the constitution. |
Do you have anything to back that up with? The current administration is telling the press what they can and can't print. This doesn't bother you, obviously. Not that I'm pro-democrat especially, but it doesn't strike me as likely. Looks like a straw man. |
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The Patriot Act takes a swipe at dissent. The increase in federal, state and local laws governing how and where dissent can occur has increased under the Bush administration. The Bush administration, using the FCC headed by Colin Powell Jr. have taken direct aim at free speech by selectively enforcing decency laws and imposing absurd fines. Namely Howard Stern. Do you have any clue what you are talking about or are you just regurgitating babble formed around the bingo parlor. |
So out of what I did manage to see before getting annoyed (with the 'pooter of course) They are really incredible, especially how they start out military shots that just look like mundane military work, then the mother huddling with her babies, and on the next page, the soldier walking past the body and then the one of all the camels, looking as though they moving away as though they are refugees. What a narrative the juxtaposition of these images tells. Is your friend going to do an exhibit of some kind? |
i was just posting the link to make a contrast with the very sanitary coffin pics. the coffin photos are such an abstraction from the reality of the other pics. two different narratives based on the same reality. i was watching the mclaughlin group (love that show) last sunday and pat buchanan made a comment that i thought was right on. he said that they should not censor the coffin photos but that the army should be the sole source of the pics. be respectful, don't politicize, let the viewer draw their own conclusion. i'm fine with that. personally, i don't care at all about seeing the coffin photos. i don't think i have a right to see them, especially if i have no personal relationship with any of the deceased. i also think that if the remains of a loved one of mine were in one of the coffins, i'd be against displaying the pics to other people who have no personal relationship with the loved one. |
the photos on that link, i believe, are equally important. people argue that the imagery we saw of vietnam helped sway people against the war. Well. YES! If people knew the truth of war, it might happen a lot less. The Vietnam war, like many, was arguably a war of futility, needless. So you have a friend that took those images dave? |
What more can be said. I love studying it. But, I don't want to experience it. Unfortunately, in todays world, we may all experience it. Up close and personal. |
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i mean, everyone knows kerry's message after the vietnam war was right on target. while there are some decent guys in the services, many soldiers commit atrocities against innocents. |
What the fuck. The motherfucker earned those medals. If he wanted to shove them up his ass, Id honor his decision. These are such non issues its fucking retarded. |
Whatever. I voted for him in the PA primaries on Tuesday. But can anyone answer this: why aren't primaries held in each state all on the same day? I don't think it's right that the candidates see how they do after, like, five states' elections and then drop out. What if I wanted to vote for Howard Dean? (He was still on the ballot on Tues.) What would be the point? Or at least, couldn't we keep the results secret until all 50 states had their elections? I don't know...it just doesn't seem fair to me. |
The movie is called Be Good, Smile Pretty, and is really, really interesting. It follows the young woman and her mother as they interview men who had fought with her father, and also as they go to Vietnam to see the place where her father was killed. They meet former Viet Cong soldiers and their families....it's painfully sad at some points. It's also a really interesting exploration of grief, and how her grief and her mother's grief are different, and how that affects their relationship with each other and with their memories... If you get a chance to see it, do. |
attack, attack, attack. lie, lie, lie. distract, distract, distract. repeat, repeat, repeat. |
its just i can't believe most of the morons eat the vanilla ice cream they are served. but then i read watchers posts. they are attacking Kerry because his wife doesnt want to release her tax information. wait. is Kerry or his wife running for office? why should she release her info? maybe Kerry should stipulate his wife will release her info if Cheney releases the details of his energy task force circle jerk. |
paul bremer - feb. 2001 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh, my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?' That's too bad. They've been given a window of opportunity with very little terrorism now, and they're not taking advantage of it. Maybe the folks in the press ought to be pushing a little bit." http://www.chireader.com/hottype/ http://charlesdog12.dailykos.com/story/2004/4/23/163634/605 so why can't we get this into the media cycle? kerry's medals for weeks on end and this just gets a blip? buh-bye, little blip. we hardly knew ye. |
I respect the fact that he fought in the war, was a good soldier for our country, came home and protested against it. That is his right, and that is fine. I understand some of his comments about what some of the soldiers have done out there, the atrocities committed. Unfortunately that does happen during war with ALL people, and not just Americans. When the animal instinct is released within humans, this is an unfortunate occurance (not condoning it at all for the record). War brings out ugly in all people on some level, especially those fighting. Yes, some of our soldiers committed horrible crimes against humanity, but it wasn't just our soldiers, it was also some of the soldiers of every single country involved in fighting, because unfortunately it is a natural part of human nature under those circumstances (again not condoning, just pointing out that as humans all are flawed and imperfect). But that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree. My opinion and experiences are different than his. Obviously because I am not him. I don't begrudge him for his opinion, but I also don't agree with all of it either. I simply don't like the guy. Can't tell you why. Nothing to do with his history and statements of Vietnam. I just don't like him, and surely don't trust him (though I doubt there is any politician I could trust). He gives me the willies, especially when he is doing that "look at me I'm cool" shit like the snowboarding and shit like that. I find it annoying and false. A mask (though all do that his mask just gets under my skin). For me he is just as false as any other candidate, and no better than any other candidate. I feel despondent this election. No one I feel like I can truly stand behind cuz everyone fucking annoys me. Everyone running seems stupid to me at some point or another. So I am back to square one, do more research on each candidate and pick the one that seems like the lesser of evils. Sad. Very sad. |
A guy who snowboards for attention vs. A guy who (let's pick one) authorized the government to listen to attorney-client conversations, search private homes without a warrant, and perform secret arrests, trials, sentencing, and executions. |
BUT his views, as presented, are at least on the surface far LESS dangerous for the world and for Americans. Bush has demonstrated, clearly, with actions, he is undermining the Constitution, increased the terrorist threat to America (you think its possible that as long as we muck it up in Iraq, that Iraqi sypathizers here in the US might take to bombing here, on American soil?) If the dangers of the first 4 years of George Bush arent obvious to you, then its pointless. But, imagine the policies this evangelical war monger would enact when he doesnt have to seek re-election? |
Is it a coincidence that 4 of Sinclair's top executives have donated the max allowed under law to the Bush campaign. See. Eri, its shit like this, shit so fucking blatent, im baffled as to how you could not want that motherfucker out of the office. He and his cronies are so contrary and out of step with most of America. No American I've spoke to thinks showing the coffin images to be disrespectful. Like the reading of the names of the soldiers killed, its about respect. Its just so fucking obvious the administration is trying to hide the costs of the war, as not to move support of it away from them. Why can't they be honest? Im willing to bet every dead soldier would want, at the very least, his name read on TV, and his annonymous flag drapped coffin shown in a respectful news paper article. Has Bush attended even ONE funeral for the soldiers he sent to fight his bullshit war? |
the broadcast is still in the future. it's tonight. friday. onward. |
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I think Sinclair is right. If ABC News wanted to honor these war dead they could have done a special. Instead they opted for using Nightline. This is simply another ploy to influence public opinion. I don't like either side doing this. It is just bad taste and can come back to haunt them. |
why would it matter is if was on Nightline or some other news show? It doesnt. I don't see how its politicizing. The names of the dead are fact. Reading them is like reading them in the paper. If the LA Times dedicated its front page to this list, would we say the LA Times politicized the matter? Where do you draw the line between reporting and politicizing? |
I've read a lot about Kerry now that the smear is going full force on him, and I have come to think now he's far less of a douchebag than I initially believed. That doesnt mean he wont fuck up like all politicians fuck up, but unlike Gore, there is a clear and vital difference between Kerry and Bush that i think a lot of people (apparently including Nader) are missing. The strongest thing about Kerry, and I noticed this mainly during the Dem debates, is he knows a lot about everything, and very little of it is catchphrases or buzzwords. He's boring, but he's fucking smart. Really smart. The man is up to speed, and definitely competent. Why given the choice people vote on a 'gut instinct' feeling on a person rather than the simple and logical choice between someone who knows whats going on and someone who obviously doesnt, they're going to let their gut instinct and stupid shit like appearances make their vote for them. And consider that with people like Clark, Dean, Richardson, Cleland and Edwards as not only possible running mates, but possible staffers on policy, I think its obvious: listen to the Canadian: Kerry isn't just the lesser of two evils. He actually has the potential to be GOOD. He's not Al Gore. He's not Dukakis. "Has Bush attended even ONE funeral for the soldiers he sent to fight his bullshit war?" No. |
http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/2004/04/28/ |
Lots of things come back to haunt people. What about illegal preemptive strikes on sovereign countries? |
To go, fight a war, become a decorated soldier, come home, have enough balls to speak out against the war, the intelligence to realize it was a morally corrupt war and that guys were dying for nothing and YET and YET still believe in your country enough to serve it by running for office. Im sorry. That spills of fucking character Bush will never have and is enough for me. |
SINCLAIR REQUIRES JOURNALISTS TO READ PRO-BUSH STATEMENTS: In September 2001, Sinclair Broadcasting required its affiliates to air messages "conveying full support" for the Bush administration. At a Baltimore affiliate, WBFF "officials required news and sports anchors, even a weather forecaster, to read the messages, "which included statements such as "[the station] wants you to know that we stand 100% behind our President." Several WBFF staffers objected on the grounds that reading the statements would "erode their reputations as objective journalists" because it made them appear to be "endorsing specific government actions." Political....agenda...whut? |
what pisses me off is all the secrecy. i understand that there have to be some secrets but goddamit, dick cheney, the public absolutely has the right to know the details of the energy commission meeting. just the fact that you won't release the details makes you a slimy motherfucker and shows exactly the depth of your contempt for not only americans but everyone below the level of corporate executive/boardmember/heads of state. if everything's on the up and up, what are you hiding? if everyone acted with honor and integrity, what are you hiding? on the other hand, if you guys were drawing up plans for contracts in a post-war iraq, way before terrorism and wmds and homeland security, you have a big problem, sparky. i'm gonna go way out on a conspiratorial limb here but i've always thought they knew something big like 9/11 was coming up and they were planning for it from day 1. if they didn't know exactly what was going to happen, they knew something was going to happen. too much of the events before, during and after only make sense when you apply that motive, especially in light of recent whistleblower revelations. this was not a surprise, it was not a setback and there are some very, very happy businesspeople out there as a result. they're criminals. they're squandering national resources, including lives. they have nothing but contempt for the electorate and hatred for any opposition. they lie whenever it suits them. they need to be fired at the very least. |
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Rowlf, you mentioned me voting on a gut instinct cuz I said I just don't like the guy. This would be us not knowing each other really well. I don't base my votes on my gut insticts, but I do discuss them openly here, so that I can work through them and not let them influence my vote. So please don't think that my gut instincts or whether or not I like someone will actually influence my vote. I study each candidate athe their backgrounds and then make what I feel to be the best decision. People who make gut decisions or lame ass "I didn't like his voice so I didn't vote for him" "the other guy is better looking" votes really piss me off. I use sorabji as my venting, thinking, experimenting, exploring grounds while I try to figure it all out. Spider, I am sure that Kerry showing off on a snowboard is not the worst thing he has done in his life, just one particular thing that annoys me. I need to learn more about his political background, goals, ambitions, beliefs, etc to be able to make any kind of comparison between him and Bush, but please believe that I think all politicians are assholes, who will say one thing and do another. I have no reason to believe at this point that either one would be better than the other, and am trying to learn in the process. Patrick, I agree with you and what little I have been able to read about the pictures of the coffins. Frankly I think it is a good reminder of what people are doing for us, our country, and the price they paid for us. It makes me question things and fear things, and study things, and it reminds me to think and to feel. OK, enough ranting, it's dinnertime. |
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Now with my new job I am able to breathe and am working on all of the things that I haven't had a chance to before. Trying to catch up. |
I seem to recall, Eri, that your personal spiritual beliefs are nature-based. You need to consider why you would even think about voting for someone who has been the worst environmental president we've ever had. Check out mountain-top removal in West Virginia, that's something Bush supports. See if that's something that's compatible with your values. It's pretty clear. Kerry won't be the best president, but damn if another four years of Bush won't set us back 50-60 years worth of progress. And it's not just Bush v. Kerry. Folks need to be out there working for a Democratic Senate and Congress as well. This country needs to get back on track and the Republicans have had enough time to fuck us over. and if all that isn't enough for you, consider these four words: Chief Justice Antonin Scalia. Nuff said. |
these fundamentalist Christians, they all believe the Rapture is coming, and that if any natural resouce goes unused, its a waste and God frowns on it. This is why I think they dont give a shit about the environment. Are there "environmental wackos" out there who have made a bunch of shit up? Yes. But theres theories, and then theres facts, and if you dont want to think globally, go locally, and take a look at this site http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/ They simply dont care. It all comes down to this: Theres no hope in Bush. Hope in Kerry? Varying levels depending on how you look at it and what you want. But some hope is certainly better than no hope at all. You know thats one of the big things that bothers me about environmental activists. They go too big and talk about the world, when its only when you appeal to peoples selfish side and show them whats happening in their own neighborhood will you be able to change their minds. Of everything, I think the mercury poisoning stuff is the most crucial to look at. And Bush should know better. In December, Texas geologists discovered that even though Bush tried to make his Crawford home this state of the art environmentalist home (which in a way is his version of 'let them eat cake'), they suspect now that the water he gets comes from a reservoir contaminated by perchlorate from the nearby Naval Weapons Industrial Reserve Plant "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." -President Bush, Sept. 23, 2002, Trenton, New Jersey, speech "First, we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country." -President Bush on the Kyoto Climate Change Treaty, Washington Post, April 24, 2001 "Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods." -President Bush, Austin, Texas, Dec. 20, 2000 |
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and hate snowboarding apparently |
I also am not a person who makes a big deal about God. After all, I am a pagan/wiccan. I will admit, that what I have learned from experience in Texas, about changes from Bush I find very dissapointing. And the continual way things are done because of it (his changes particularly in education) are really failing the kids. Environmentally, I have yet to see one thing that is GOOD for the environment, but that is also under any presidency I have been old enough to see myself. It's Bush, but also Clinton and also Bush and also Reagan. I have yet to see any president do anything good for the environment. This is not me justifying Bush, but expressing dissapointment straight across the board at all. "Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods." -President Bush, Austin, Texas, Dec. 20, 2000" ROFLMAO, yeah, you can find natural gas in my neighborhood, if you count my farts. Shit, that's just pathetically funny in a fucked up way. |
but you know he ain't the center of power in that outfit. not even close. shit, i don't wanna try to tell anyone how to vote. eri, you know the bias of most of the people here. i'd recommend staying away from the big media stories and listen to both air america radio, particularly al franken, randi rhodes (crazy train!!) and janeane garofalo. you can listen online and the shows all repeat in the evening. randi rhodes is fucking great. she's the real thing. the rest of the bunch are amateur in comparison -- but they're getting better. i've been listening to her for several months. then listen to hannity, rush, michael savage, and the like. see what suits you better. if i had to guess, i'd put you in the raging liberal camp. http://www.airamericaradio.com/pub/globalDefault.htm |
VOTE FOR J! |
you know... some people could come into this forum, read just a few of your posts and think you make a big deal out of being pagan/wiccan... i dont know what I mean by that... okay then. So I take issue with calling Kerrys snowboarding 'fakey'. Fakey is going to a NASCAR rally, making a big deal out of it to show how 'common' you are and taking off right after it starts. I think its a lot less fakey (fakie - heh, snowboarding soundalike) to be videotaped snowboarding... when you actually can snowboard. Snowboarding isnt easy. I dont think you can call that 'fakey', nor was Clinton 'fakey' by playing the saxophone to show people what he was like. Pandering yes, fake no. now if you want to go after Kerry (and for that matter, Dean) for their fake appreciation of hip-hop culture, go right ahead. Thats deserved. Dave - I dont know what to think of Randi Rhodes. Sure, she's the most 'professional' radio-show wise and its easy to like her if you agree with what shes saying, but think about it: she's kind of a bully, and at times very ill-informed. She thought Canada was older than the US and was fighting with a caller about it the other day. She doesnt back down when proven wrong on things. which to me makes her more like Bill O'Reilly than any other leftie that I can think of. I like Garofalo's show, though the Atrios bits are terrible. OOOH, blogger! Great! And most of Frankens skits arent so great. But I like Al overall and he's starting to come into his own. |
http://wilem.com/rrs/interviews/rrs_20040331_nader.mp3 air america's first day. randi "interviews" nader. it's pretty shrill and the quality of the recording doesn't help. http://wilem.com/rrs/interviews/rrs_20040331_buchanan.mp3 followed by an interview with pat buchanan. randi knows her shit. no, she's not a fucking encyclopedia of what's up but she has her strengths and they trump her weaknesses. |
the other day, cleo cut loose with a dean scream. i tried to get her to do it again but she got all fake bashful about it. |
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How all the shock and horror of them comes from the situations and the hoods and the squalor... aw.. but someone was so nice to blur out the ass-shots for us, because THATS just TOO disgusting for people to see |
that's not saying i don't believe shit like that really goes on. i wonder if all the "support our troops" folks support these guys too. |
nevertheless, heres what the good people at Free Republic have to say about the photos: “That's what happens when you have gays and women in the military.” “Lets see the torture; frat pranks I see but torture?” “You're right. It appesrs (sic) to have been very much akin to hazing.” “But I would BET you would be hard pressed to find even a scratch on these guys from mal-treatment. *some* of this stuff almost reminds me of college initiation stuff.” "Whaddya think of Clinton's military now?" “As someone who wrote into O'Reilly said, "How can you win the hearts and minds of people who are heartless and mindless?"” “One has to wonder if CBS released this footage in order to inform the public or to subvert the US effort to win over the Iraqi people and achieve a peaceful transition of goverment?” "THEY dare to question OUR level of civilization? …We are dealing with barbarians. If we don't kill them, they will kill us. The Vandals are headed not for Rome this time, but for Washington. It is our job to stop them dead, not "bring them to justice." I deeply wish that President Bush would stop using that useless phrase in this context. The task is to "kill" them. That is the only form of "justice" that they actually understand.” “What should we expect from a bunch of women rear echelon types who wish they were men and the "guys" who go with them? They're vindictive and perverted, but they're not tough enough for the job.” "Thank you, Janeane Garofolo. Hooray for Hollywood--NOT!" “The media should have put a lid on it, but being the red diapered, yellow journals that they are ... we got what would be expected. All of this adds up to less credability (sic) as righteous people and less effectiveness in shutting the mouths of the congress critter naysayers (sic).” “I think if I were at that age I would have done the same thing.” “I do not see any physical torture here. They just humiliated them that someone in the media got pictures. The prisoners probably were glad they were still alive.” “The media put it out to embarrass Bush first, America second.” “Why in the Sam Hill do these fools take pictures? Dumb, fellas, dumb. Photographic evidence will nail you every time.” “this is the reason you should never keep prisoners for more than 24 hrs...do what you need to do to extract necessary info,,,then do the 3 "s" dance..shoot, shovel, shutup….our guys don't really need to torture them that much..just hang 'em up, bring a great big hawg in..extract a syringe of blood from it, cut the prisoner's genitals off and inject him with the syringe of pig's blood and then "send him to allah"....no!!! that's not cruel..it is expedient…” "...I laughed at the "Pyramid of A$$holes." Does that make me a bad person? The only thing missing in the Pyramid was John Kerry at the top." "....it is a long way from the definition of torture. The media knows this too, but it is just yet another way to demoralize the troops, and turn the world against us. They won't be happy until we are under Islamic rule." "Wipeout Islam." "This is an act of press sabotage if I've ever seen one." "This prosecution should be interesting. The PC crowd will be terribly conflicted at first, but eventually they will explain how it's all the fault of white men." |
Is this what they meant by 'Shock and Awe'. You, know, as I read the weekends press about it all, one thing that kept coming up was the role 'civilian contractors' played in all of this. Who they fuck are these 'civilians' and why are they playing a role in such military duties as imprisonment and interrogration of prisoners of war? Soldiers of Fortune? Who are these 'civilians' and who the fuck do they report to, and who hired them to begin with. The Pentagon? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Who. Are what the fuck are these war profiteering companys doing there? I swear to go, if it wasnt apparent now, let it be know, the world hates us because the US is clearly the fuckign evil empire and will stop at nothing. My god, how depressing. |
WWSS? What Would Spunky Say? Commence... |
The only hero in this mess is Pvt. Darby, who blew the whistle on the whole thing. Green fatigues aren't too surprising, considering these are MPs and not your standard soldier out there on patrol and what not. As far as "Civilian contractors" go, that's just Newspeak for "mercenary". Oh, not all of them are mercenaries, but certainly many of them are. The four who were hung off the bridge were. See, it's exactly this sort of thing is why Bush did not want the US subjected to an international war crimes tribunal. We'd be up before it on a regular basis with this sort of crap going on. But of course, this administration believes that the Geneva Conventions should only be followed when it's convenient for them. |
and you see the images of the soldiers IN the prison still wear sand-brown fatigues. |
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"The Iraqi people are now free. And they do not have to worry about the secret police coming after them in the middle of the night, and they don't have to worry about their husbands and brothers being taken off and shot, or their wives being taken to rape rooms. Those days are over."—Paul Bremer, Administrator, [Iraq] Coalition Provisional Authority, Sept. 2, 2003 "Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."—President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003 "There was an announcement by the Iraqi Governing Council earlier this week about the tribunal that they have set up to hold accountable members of the former regime who were responsible for three decades of brutality and atrocities. … We know about the mass graves and the rape rooms and the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein's regime. … We welcome their decision to move forward on a tribunal to hold people accountable for those atrocities."—Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan, White House press briefing, Dec. 10, 2003 "One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."—Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, Jan. 12, 2004 "On 19 January 2004, Lieutenant General (LTG) Ricardo S. Sanchez, Commander, Combined Joint Task Force Seven (CJTF-7) requested that the Commander, US Central Command, appoint an Investigating Officer (IO) in the grade of Major General (MG) or above to investigate the conduct of operations within the 800th Military Police (MP) Brigade. LTG Sanchez requested an investigation of detention and internment operations by the Brigade from 1 November 2003 to present. LTG Sanchez cited recent reports of detainee abuse."—Report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba to Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, senior U.S. military official in Iraq, describing a formal inquiry launched on Jan. 19, 2004 "Sources have revealed new details from the Army's criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi detainees, including the location of the suspected crimes and evidence that is being sought. U.S. soldiers reportedly posed for photographs with partially unclothed Iraqi prisoners, a Pentagon official told CNN on Tuesday."—Barbara Starr, CNN, Jan. 21, 2004 "Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms …"—Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," Feb. 4, 2004 "Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been suspended of duties pending the outcome of the investigation into alleged allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, a U.S. officer said Monday."—Associated Press, Feb. 23, 2004 "[B]etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force. … The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. … I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts: a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet; b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees; c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing; d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time; e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear; f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped; g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them; h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; … j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture; k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee … These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. … In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26): a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol; c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees; d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; e. Threatening male detainees with rape; … g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick." —Executive summary of Taguba report, finalized Feb. 29, 2004, briefed to superiors on March 3, 2004, and submitted in final form on March 9, 2004 "Every woman in Iraq is better off because the rape rooms and torture chambers of Saddam Hussein are forever closed."—Bush, remarks on "Efforts to Globally Promote Women's Human Rights," March 12, 2004 "There's still remnants of that regime that would like to take it back. … They could torture people and have rape rooms, and the world would turn their head from that and let it happen. But they can't do that anymore."—Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, BBC interview, March 16, 2004 "There are no more rape rooms and torture chambers in Iraq."—National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, CBS Early Show, March 19, 2004 "As you know, on 14 January 2004, a criminal investigation was initiated to examine allegations of detainee abuse at the Baghdad confinement facility at Abu Ghraib. Shortly thereafter, the commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force Seven requested a separate administrative investigation into systemic issues such as command policies and internal procedures related to detention operations. That administrative investigation is complete; however, the findings and recommendations have not been approved. As a result of the criminal investigation, six military personnel have been charged with criminal offenses to include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts with another."--Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt, Deputy Director for Coalition Operations, Coalition Provisional Authority Briefing, March 20, 2004 "Correspondent Brooke Hart: But in a 53-page secret report, Army Major General Antonio Taguba says an investigation found a disturbing pattern of sadistic, blatant, wanton criminal abuses. The report was completed in February, but the Pentagon said Defense Secretary Rumsfeld hadn't read it. Democratic lawmakers are frustrated. Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M.: This is an unacceptable response. That's not the level of concern the American people would expect of their military commanders for this type of conduct."—"Pentagon officials to answer tough questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee regarding Iraqi prisoner abuse," CNBC, April 4, 2004 "SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. …. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. … I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open."—Testimony of Military Police Specialist Matthew Wisdom, hearing on charges of prisoner abuse, April 9, 2004; according to The New Yorker, "After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial." "The investigation started after SPC Darby … got a CD from CPL Graner. … He came across pictures of naked detainees."—Testimony of Special Agent Scott Bobeck, Army Criminal Investigation Division, same hearing, April 9, 2004 "Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast—given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq."—CBS News statement on its broadcast of photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse, April 29, 2004, referring to a DOD appeal received on or near April 15, 2004 "Our military is … performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they're doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds."—Bush, remarks on "Tax Relief and the Economy," Iowa, April 15, 2004 "We're facing supporters of the outlaw cleric, remnants of Saddam's regime that are still bitter that they don't have the position to run the torture chambers and rape rooms. … They will fail because they do not speak for the vast majority of Iraqis who do not want to replace one tyrant with another. They will fail because the will of our coalition is strong. They will fail because America leads a coalition full of the finest military men and women in the world."—Bush, remarks on the USA Patriot Act, Pennsylvania, April 19, 2004 "We acted, and there are no longer mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms in Iraq."—Bush, remarks at Victory 2004 Reception, Florida, April 23, 2004 "The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners. There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up."—Dan Rather, 60 Minutes II, April 28, 2004 "A year ago, I did give the speech from the carrier, saying that we had achieved an important objective, that we'd accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."—Bush, remarks in the Rose Garden, April 30, 2004 "There are those who seek to derail the transition to democracy because they want to return to the days of mass graves and torture chambers and rape rooms. But that's not going to happen."—McClellan, White House press briefing, April 30, 2004 "A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba … listed some of the wrongdoing: 'Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.' "—Seymour M. Hersh, "Torture at Abu Ghraib," The New Yorker, posted April 30, 2004 "Because we acted, torture rooms are closed, rape rooms no longer exist, mass graves are no longer a possibility in Iraq."—Bush, remarks at "Ask President Bush" event, Michigan, May 3, 2004 "I'm not a lawyer. My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture. … I don't know if it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to address the torture word."—Rumsfeld, Defense Department Operational Update Briefing, May 4, 2004 "It's very important for people, your listeners, to understand in our country that when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we act—and we act in a way where leaders are willing to discuss it with the media. And we act in a way where, you know, our Congress asks pointed questions to the leadership. … Iraq was a unique situation because Saddam Hussein had constantly defied the world and had threatened his neighbors, had used weapons of mass destruction, had terrorist ties, had torture chambers …"—Bush, interview with Al Arabiya Television, May 5, 2004 . . . I find Bush's last statement to be pretty telling. Iraq is hardly unique in that. The USA has done all of that. We've constantly defied the world (Kyoto, Arms treaties, the Iraq war, etc), used weapons of mass destruction (atomic bombs, DU shells, firebombing, daisy cutters), threatened our neighbors (Central America), have terrorist ties (Central America, again, plus Iran-Contra, CIA funding of Bin Laden, etc), and torture chambers is obvious of course. In all, it paints a portrait of an administration and especially a Commander in Chief completely out of touch with what's going on. Maybe if Bush would read a newspaper once in a while, but i guess that's too much to ask the guy who's the presidential equivalent of Clark Griswold. |
where are the weapons of mass destruction bitches? |
I want to know the accountability his boss will take? The buck stops at Bush right? Doesnt he take responsibility for putting our troops there to begin with? Why, after 1 year, with no weapons found is anyone calling for the very least for Bush to be censured for taking this country to war on false pretense? Why? Everything that is unfolding, the on-going guerilla war, the mistreatment of Iraqi's by American troops, the continuing international condemnation, the war crimes the US will never be tried for.....these are all things that were predicted....WIDELY by a range of professionals before the war. The only truth to come from the pre war predictions has been this. There are no weapons, the torture hasnt stopped. The violence and oppression continues. Why is no one calling for the Presidents ass? I dont fucking understand it. I mean i do, but what I dont understand is how the majority of this country can be so fucking stupid and quickly forget the feeding frenzy on Clinton and how close we came to firing a sitting president because he lied about sex with an intern. It just blows my mind. Where's my valium |
