| THIS IS A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE FROM THE SORABJI.COM MESSAGE BOARDS (1995-2016). |
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Her teacher here has really invested in Hayley. There was a high risk of Hayley not passing the grade here because she was so behind in math and creative writing (they hadn't started in KC yet, but started 6 months ago here). We believed that our best bet was going to be her going to summer school, getting tutoring and going on to the third grade under academic probation. She shows every sign of belonging in the gifted classes and being at least a genius level, but she missed out on too much. There was a committee at the school which was going to decide what happened next year for her. In the past 4 weeks, she has held passing grades in math with only some in classroom tutoring, is top of the class in reading and her writing has drastically improved (if only her handwriting would). They have decided. She goes onto third grade, without academic probation. The teacher has had 6 months of catching up in writing and math, she has given us tools to help her at home. She has gone over different strategies and Hayley is starting to enjoy it. She doesn't let Hayley give up or play games, but makes her stay involved no matter what, and makes her accountable for homework and studying. She goes over areas of improvement without condemning her, but rather encouraging setting goals to do better the next time. She has spent her personal time working with me and she got Hayley a scholarship to get extra help she needed this summer. This teacher has done everything in her power to recognize Hayley's problem areas and find ways to fix them. Ways that Hayley will understand and be proud of. I am so happy about this right now. This has made my week. Seeing my daughter make better progress than we thought she could, well, it just shows that for once someone cares about her future. We always have, but someone else does. I guess this is the first time I have seen a teacher care about a child's well being and future so much and and very glad to see it, to see a teacher be willing to invest in their students. Too bad she won't be her third grade teacher, too. |
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you should write a letter to the principal at Haley's school and to the superintendent of the district letting them know about your and Haley's experiences with the teacher. |
im glad things are improving for hayley. |
This totally blows my mind. |
I think this particular teacher is going to impact Hayley more then we realize. I just hope she does not come to expect all teachers to tailor thier teaching methods to her learning methods. |
I am not trying to condone any games on Hayley's part, and I do expect her to take responsibility for her own work and doing well at it. I am just so very happy at what this teacher has managed to do in 4-6 weeks that no other teacher has bothered to do in the past 3 years. I was actually considering writing the school board about this, because it wasn't just the teacher who has helped her. The principal and document coordinator have been in touch with me about her scholarship (it was supposed to applied for by the teacher 3 months ago, and the teacher turned it in 2 months late but we still got it thanks to everyone working for her). But I definately thought this teacher did and continues to do a wonderful job. Spider, regarding the 100% rule, they were math tests and Hayley regularly brought home 96% or 92% and the teacher would call me to tell me that it is still failing and she needs to get it together. I didn't understand it, since I didn't experience that except typing speed tests in high school. Either way, Hayley got stressed out (ever seen a stressed out 1st grader?) and stopped trying and brought home 50% or 30% even as low as 26% because she just gave up. I thought it would take a couple of years for Hayley to catch up to the rest of the kids here and be able to function at the normal level, but it looks like with this teachers hard work and constant communication with us, she will be completlely caught up by next fall. This is just an amazing thing since this teacher only had her for a total of 12 weeks this year. Allright. I will stop babbling now. |
Yes, babe. But, most classes have at least 20 students in them, and just one teacher. If the teacher does that for every student, she will never get anything done. |
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Bottom line is that teachers need to teach the children, and even in the best schools in the Kansas City Metro Area, they aren't. They're telling kids and then expecting kids to just do it and know why they are doing it. There is no strategy, or critical thinking or problem solving of any kind taught. If a student was just fine, but falls behind, then maybe the teacher isn't doing their job right. It is easy to drill and practice that 2 and 2 are 4, but wouldn't it be nice if the kids learned why it is not just that it is, so that when they move on to the next step they know what they are doing and not drill and practicing complex mathematics? We have worked with Hayley constantly and have not done anything to fail her in that regard. It still wasn't enough. There wasn't anything else you could put on our shoulders to help her. We did everything imaginable. We still do. It's not a case of the parents or the parents money failing this time around. If the children lose out on the fundamentals in early elementary school, how in the hell are they supposed to function in high school or college? If we have done and continue to do everything and it hasn't worked and then she works with a new teacher for a short term period and improves dramatically, it just might lead you to think that it is a good teacher, a teacher who cares. That was my point. Thanks for the criticism Nate. You really know what you are talking about, don't you? You really know all about the issues MY child has had, and how to correct them. You haven't worked and worked and tried and tried to see her falling farther and farther behind for two years to finally see a positive change in someone you love due to the fact that the teacher is working for her. It's all the parents fault, and never a teachers, isn't it? There isn't a single teacher out there who didn't realize what they were getting into and realized that they hated their job and didn't care about the kids, is there? It couldn't be that in an area where education is severely inferior to the rest of the nation, that the new teachers have an inferior education themselves? Couldn't be that a recent college graduate doesn't have the patience to deal with 18-20 6 year olds naturally and therefore doesn't know how to handle may situations in a 2nd grade classroom? Must be the parents. Any child who falls behind, must be the parents fault. Teaching children is only a parents responsibility, and not the educators, right? Thank you for killing my buzz. I really was happy for my daughters success, giddy that she had done so much better than we thought she could, excited that she is finally getting back her love for learning. Thanks Nate. Oh, by the way, how many children have you raised? How close have you ever come to walking in my shoes? Who the hell are you to judge? |
He was not trying to kill any buzz, it looked like he was just repeating what I had said, kind of... You know I am proud of boo, and I have worked with her, only to see her ignore what I am saying. I have seen her do it to you. The teacher said she was laying her head down on the desk when she did not want to deal with the complicated math problems. Hayley decided to get over that on her own, and Hayley made the progress. I told her she was the only one who could decide to pay attention to the teachers or you or me. And it appears that she did just that. Good job for Hayley, and thanks teacher for having patience and not giving up on her. The one who deserves the koodos is boo. |
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your intellectual superior. now shut the hell up. |
Im not sure i understand the math jive about having 100% or not passing at all? Do you mean that if she doesnt not score 100% on every single test throughout the quarter she doesnt pass at all? Am I understanding this right? I do believe our kids are terribly under-taught when it comes to math and science. |
I also believe that math and science are severly under-taught. I think that reason should be taught with the math, so that children can reason out the problems in their heads as well as on paper. I believe that math strategies and rationalization should be used to help children understand what they are doing and why. Doing this helps kids learn different ways to problem solve. Learning this is what has made a huge difference in Hayley's abilities. Math strategies are taught here in Texas, and in Alabama, but not in Missouri. They are not part of any curriculum there. Our kids have great potential to do things in math and science we never dreamed of. I have been learning this from a kid I did theater with. She is amazing and just got back from nationals for the Science Olympiad. She is doing work in math and science that most of us wouldn't have thought of until college if ever. There is so much more we can do. Worldwide it is proven that we are significantly behind the world in mathematics and science and writing. Our bachelors degree in America is the equal of a high school diploma in England. There is so much more we can be doing. Nate, my intellectual superior? Wake up you dreamer. Intellect is more than just paying attention to the news. If you aren't a parent, with a college background in progressive teaching, then anything you have to say to me is shit, because you don't know shit. Reserve your lame ass judgements for something you actually know about and stop talking out of your ass. Either way, I am greatful for this teacher and glad to see such improvement in Hayley. I am proud of Hayley and grateful for this teacher and this school. |
beyond my experience on the tall side of the chalk board, i was also a student in public schools who saw, year after year, teachers who are forced to dumb down their cirriculum because american students are stupider and stupider each year. education starts at home. without a foundation for learning a student cannot succeed. the only problem is that pressure from PARENTS dissolves merit and reduces standards so that an acceptable percentage of children receive passing scores REGARDLESS of how the information is absorbed. and for what it's worth, i didn't post that superiority bit. though i suspect someone at my office might have. |
some kids succeed in spite of adversity, some fail in spite of advantages. still, it never hurts to be active in the kid's education. i doubt that it's parental pressure that dumbs down curriculum, it's more likely performance-based funding of schools that causes this. under-performing districts get less funding, which makes no sense. this is what government-funded social programs are for -- programs that can't be operated like a business, will always lose money, and are necessary to raise the quality of life of the whole society should be liberally funded by taxes. start paying teachers like we pay software engineers and we may be able to attract people who aren't either mother teresas or second-rate hacks. i don't think the govt or business has any real interest in improving education beyond the basic nationalistic indoctrination and product placement opportunities. they know that there will always be a small percentage of people with "the stuff" who will climb out of the cesspool smelling like lilacs who can run the show while the rest of the masses are purposefully left in situ to consume and fuel the economy. (what's the difference between the $5 goldfish and the 25 cent feeder fish? extra attention? luck?) stupid consumers are good consumers. they also make good soldiers when the occasional turf war pops up. anyways, cheer up. life is short. i'm reminded of a song by flipper. i'm going to see if i can find it and then i'm going to go to sleep. training in redmond tomorrow and i need to recharge my shields. god, i hate redmond. |
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I am not the kind of parent who would say "Don't say anything bad about my kid". I don't think that any child is perfect, and want to know the things that the teachers see, that I miss. A child acts differently away from home, and it is imperative that I know what she is doing away from home, if I am going to work with her. We work on her behavior as well as her academics, because the two go hand in hand. I don't think my child is infallible or without flaws. She is responsible for her behavior in the classroom and if that is disrupting her learning, then that needs to be worked on as well. The important thing is her education and that she learns. I want a teacher to be open and frank and honest, and not put some kind of glossy coat on it. I want to truly understand all that is going on because if I don't I can't help her to change it and succeed. I am not one of those parents who don't want my children or their education to interfere with my work. I don't let the television or video games babysit my child. I do believe that as a parent you have to be very involved in you child's education and continue the learning at home all of the time. The teachers have a job to do, yes, and I have certain expectations of a teacher, but that doesn't mean that I don't follow up at home to help the teachers be successful. I don't expect Hayley to go to school and learn it then and never have to practice what she has learned or discuss what she has learned. I don't think that at 3:00 when class is out that education is done for the day. My child's education is my child's future. My goals for them aren't for them to graduate high school and flip burgers for the rest of their lives and struggle every month to make ends meet. Everything I dream for them begins with intelligence, and what is intelligence without education. I do realize that most parents aren't the same way that I am, and understand frustration from lack of parental involvement. It is too common. I also don't believe in parental predjudice. It inhibits teachers abilities. I have seen too much of it and it drives me nuts. You can't provide a good education without realism about your child, and communication with the teacher and following up on the work all of the time. If you are unwilling to do these things then your child will graduate the dummed down version of America that we bitch about and my children deserve better than that. That is why for once, I am so happy to have a teacher that isn't afraid to speak the truth without putting rose colored glasses on but really work honestly for the benefit of my child. Her job is difficult, but as a teacher she has done wonderful things for my child. And because of it my child is happy to do wonderful things in return and really get caught up to what she should be. |
after all this conversation i find it, um, amusing? ironic? that 'advanced' math in my elementary school was 'independent' which meant that the teacher handed you a book and you would do whatever and go through the lessons and basically never hear a word from him/her. |
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My cousin is having to decide whether or not to have her daughter repeat 2nd grade. Aparently she is over a year behind in reading. She doesn't seem to be upset about it, because Megan does need help, and she can't afford tutoring. Actually, if she were here, then she would only be in 1st grade because of her birthday. California's cut off dates are later than Texas and Missouri, but I don't know about other places. But fortunately, she isn't fighting the system and if they want Megan to repeat the grade, then she will. |
If I ever get married and have kids and have a husband whose job allows me to not work (believe me, I'm snickering in self-mockery as I type), I'm homeschooling my kids. |
you should use public school spidey. |
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sounds like a plan. |
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At least I'm not this guy. |
im just bored. i hate fridays before a holiday. this weekend the big Warhol exhibit opens at MOCA (Museum of Contemporary Art) here in LA. Its all the talk. I think most people don't get Warhol and are too afraid to admit it. Makes me think of that Woody Allen flic i watched this past weekend called Zelig. Im not necessarily saying I get Warhol either. I think most of his popular works arent all that. Neat to look at, graphically interesting, but not that earth shattering. Its more about who he was and what he did otherwise in the art and culture scene that i appreciate him. That and his polaroids. Im not sure if I'll go to the opening or not. There will probably be all kinds of stars adn such thereby making it so damn difficult to see anything at all, but who knows. |
without VU, we'd have no 3rd eye blind. thank god for warhol. |
kids are too much of a responsibility. all i want is a bevy of rubenesque wood nymphs. |
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id take issue with this but theres no point. |
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home-school is too incestuous. your children deserve a break from the world of you, and every school has some good teachers and good kids. it's more important to teach them to think and then allow them to. |
Here's hoping Tiger Guy doesn't reproduce. |
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asspipe. |
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Or the commercials were the kids run all over thier parents, and all the parents do is roll thier eyes and sigh, and let the kids do whatever. |
I hate it when a kid is misbehaving and screaming and kicking and throwing a fit in a public place because they aren't getting something they want(I am not talking about a baby, but a child) and the parents try to cozen the child and hush them with candy or bribery or just giving in. I don't believe in giving in to make a child behave. It is their job to behave. It is your job as a parent to make them behave and not kiss their ass to make them behave. If my child is misbehaving and refusing to behave then I will simply remove my child from the situation. You don't behave, you don't get to go to the skating rink or park or bowling alley or movie or whatever. It drives me nuts. Responsiblity for your own behavior is something that I don't think is taught often enough anymore. |
What you're supporting here isn't teaching responsibility for their actions; it's negative reinforcement. (all you psych majors check me that I'm getting my words right?) Positive reinforcement: give the kid something good when he does what you want. negative reinforcement: punish the kid when he doesn't do what you want (in this case, the "punishment" being "removal" from the skating rink or park or whatever.) It is your job as a parent to make them understand why they ought to behave. I know better than to attack someone's style of parenting. I'm gonna post this anyhow. |
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Ever try to sit down with a three year old and try to reason with them? That is not even possible with an 8 year old. I can't stand seeing parents just standing there saying "Now, honey, you should not strangle the cat, it can hurt it. I am going to count to 5, and when I am finished counting, you had better have let go of the cat. 1 2 3 4 5. Put the cat down. Don't make me count again...." In the meantime, the cat dies. parent says, "It is ok, she is only three and did not understand why she should not choke the cat". Or, there is that dear sweet child at Wal-Mart screaming and crying because mommy did not buy her the bug-bunny balloon, and all the parent says is "honey, please stop crying" and eventually the child wins, as the parent buys the balloon to keep the kid happy. Or there is the parent who believes that the number one priority is that their child is happy, what ever it takes. Hmmm, maybe that is where the self-centered attitude comes from when they are an adult and kill co-workers because they did not get the raise they wanted? Or they bounce from job to job because the "Boss is just out to get me" due to the fact that they got written up for calling in sick and going to get thier hair done. As far as letting them learn from experience, depends on the circumstance. My brother, no matter how many times my folks warned him and smacked his little hand, kept reaching for the wood stove in my granmother's living room. One time they did not see him reaching for it, he burnt his index finger, but never tried to reach for the stove again. Eri's dad calls that a Hurtz Dontit. That theory does not work for running in the street, but I would much rather give the child a swat on the but to get my point across as opposed to trying to explain to the three year old that if they run away from you, laughing because they think it is a huge joke, and get smashed by a big rig. You must impress on the very young not to question, but then begin to encourage questioning when they are at the age when they are able to reason. |
bullshit spunky. I reason with my 4 year old pal H all the damn time...you just have to use a little creativity and put yourself in their shoes. Its not hard at all. |
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Reasoning is also almost like begging. A cop will not reason with them. A boss, if he is decent, will reason once, maybe. First lesson they should learn is "Because you are not allowed to do that". Then, later explain why. You do not have time when he/she is running into a street. At that point, you must be obeyed, unquestionably by the 2-3 year old. Or he/she may die. Putting yourself in a four year old's shoes must not be all that difficult. They only thing on a four year's mind is "me me me me me" |
You can say that "you can't play with someone because they do naughty things" and put it on their level, but they won't take it for what it is and will want more information, but won't be able to listen to it all. In some ways reason works, but kids being kids, sometimes don't care or won't listen, and that is when reason fails. |
Trace i wasnt even addressing the matter of obeying authority. I was talking about reasoning and communicating with a child. Its about communication and it seems your communications skills need work. Discipline is not too big of a concern if your communications skills are up to par. While discpline is still a necessity, your approach seems to aggravate the discipline matter not aide it. "Next time you smack their hand." noooooo "Reasoning is also almost like begging" noooooooo "They only thing on a four year's mind is "me me me me me" nooooooooooo |
I do not mean god children, nieces or nephews? it is so easy to see a kid for a couple of hours a week and be thier "pal", but when you are there with them day and night, and you are responsible for their safety, their behaviour and their actions, then it becomes a new ball game. And yessssss to smacking hands. again, a smacked hand is better then a missing finger. Reasoning only goes so far. And most kids, except for an exceptional few, are very much about "me me me me" until they are around 12, then forgetaboutit, they become teens. |
3 steps. Step 1: instruction. Step 2: Warning & discussion Step 3: Correction |
Kids are born a clean slate. If you are having to slap your kids' hands often I would say they arent the problem. If your kids are all about the "me me me me me" then I have to question where they learned that and what you have done to counter that. I realize kids have several sources input and you are constantly in a battle against school, peers and other adults. Reason will go as far as you want it to. Thats my point, maybe you aren't communicating reason enough. There is no reason in a slapped hand, only a slapped hand. |
I love Hayley to death, but she has HORRID table manners. We have reasoned with her "Hayley, other people at the table do not like seeing you chew with your mouth open" or "Hayley, when you chew with your mouth open, food falls out of your mouth and onto the table". "Other people loose their appetite when they hear your smacking sounds" Hell, Eri and I have both even demonstrated for her exactly what it looks like. Guess what? She still chews with her mouth open EVERY MEAL until she is warned at leaste once. Sometimes I do not even have to verbally warn her, I just give her a "look" and she knows what it is about. The threat always is "If I have to warn you again, you will get down from the table". She has a weight problem, just like her sister and her mother. This makes it extremely difficult for me, because I want her to be healthy and missing even a single meal can have dire consequences. So, I send her down, give her a few minutes to be upset and realize I was serious, then I let her come back to the table, usually before the meal has gotten to cool to eat. That might work maybe one more time, then she will have it figured out. My point to all this was, we have tried reasoning with the older daughter, but usually she acts like she is so bored (regaurdless of how you put it or what the subject is) she just wishes you would shut up. Trust me, the most important person in a child's eyes is him/herself. |
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Erin is making dinner. Mikayla is starving to death. You give her 1 cracker or cookie to help her calm down, because she is in the kitchen crying and screaming about being hungry. You tell her "You can have ONE cookie/cracker, but mommy is making dinner, and you need to eat dinner". I promise you if she is still hungry, she will continue to plead for food. Most if not all of Erin's meals are balanced. You want Mikayla to eat that balanced meal. So, you must deny her more "snacks" for fear of spoiling her appetite. All you can do at that point is say no. Reasoning will not work. Most kids do not consider even 5 minutes from now, even when that concept is brought to their attention. All they can think of, and this absolutely normal, is right now. Reasoning will not work. Or how about this: With Hayley or Mikayla, to many (sometimes just more then one) of a single fruit can have adverse reactions. More then one bannana can cause them constipation. More then one apple or a large amount of grapes, can cause thier solid & liquid wastes to contain too much acid. For Hayley, to much sodium will cause small crystalized kidney stones. So, you are presented with the fact that you have to explain all of this to her as she requests more of said food product. Hmm, more then one apple can make you sick, more then one bannana can make you sick, to many saltines can make you sick...... etc etc etc Guess what you are encouraging? Hypocondriach tendencies. everything can make them sick. Better off just saying "you have enough for now". Reasoning can have a negative effect. Also, children also want boundries and need you to set them. And they need to know the consequences of crossing said boundries. More lecture/discussion/reasoning? oh, then I can push even further. And yes raising children does give you a unique perspective. You find yourself thinking "My mom/dad was not so dumb after all" |
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Man... patrick... Could you be any more ignorant? |
i'm basically saying, you have your experiences, i have mine, you have your opinion I have mine. Where exactly is the arrogance? you happened to catch me in a particular mood as Ive just been bullied by a bottom-feeding, blood-sucking, no-talent 'gatekeeper' who thinks he can pay me a couple of hundred bucks and buy all my images, threaten me with lawyers and injuctions (as if im going to do anything with these images {of an aging rockstar in a silly band no less} other than maybe make 1 or two prints for my portfolio). I HAVE expenses!! I HAVE a publishing fee, can't pay it? fuck you, my integrity is not for sale cockmouth! *sorry* |
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"They are two completely different experiences and not all that close in relation." I don't believe this horse-pucky nor do I accept this: "You not having spent the same type of time with a child makes your point of view irrelevent to the situation" If antigone is looking for arrogance, he found it in your post. I deal with children like any other human being. I don't think it takes a parent to only know whats right for children, nor do I think Im a child expert. What about teachers who aren't parents? Are they "irrelavent to the situation"? no of course not. If you choose to diregard my opinion thats fine eri, spunk. its not a problem. but just so you know Im not disregarding yours. |
I am not disregarding your opinion, Patrick, just pointing out that if you don't or haven't lived it, then it is very difficult to know what you are talking about on a parenting level vs. a visiting level. I realize you aren't a parent, and aren't aware of the differences, but trust me that they are EXTREMELY different. I am not saying that you don't know about interacting with kids, but interacting with them and raising them are two different things. It isn't a matter of arrogance. It is a matter of putting things in perspective. You talk to me about this with international affairs all of the time, this is the time and the thing that I have the background in. Have a little faith and see that you don't truly understand where we are coming from because you have not been in these shoes so to speak. Not accepting what I am saying is simply showing that you have not done it and therefore don't understand it or are unable to put it in perspective. What you do with your God-son is the equivalent to babysitting vs. raising. The time you spent is quality time, but you are not the parent. Were you to have him full-time, you would understand the difference and what I am saying here. You don't and you haven't so you don't or won't see it. That's all. |
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(Parenting includes teaching more than the teachers teach, thats why i made that point about teachers moreover to demonstrate that anyone who interacts with children in any capacity can potentially have a valid opinion in this conversation.) |
I disagree. I've seen reason conveyed, understood and put into action by a child as well as non-selfish acts by children. I was tacitly trying to make the point that perhaps your own situation isnt 'the way it is'. By saying you can't reason with your daughters, to me sounds like a cop out and an act of giving up, when all i was hoping to spur was a different approach. All in all its no big deal. |
Also, there is a difference between using a cop out or giving up and knowing when to recognize that something is not working. Antigone is right, though. Talking about parenting with you is a waste of words. Also, it is ignorant to assume that my situation is the only one I know. I may not know too much about yours, but that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that my experiences or knowledge are as limited as you would like to think they are. Take a midol, because you obviously didn't get your point across with your reasoning. |
You and trace are the only ones who are writing my opinions off because I am not a parent. Do you not see? Reread the thread. Fine, you don't have to agree with me, thats ok, but by the same token just because Im not a parent doesnt mean I can't understand how to deal with children. nate doesnt have any children but has some fantastic ideas he's posed on the boards over the years. Heather's not a parent, nor is spider, nor sarah yet ive seen very intelligent thoughts on children from them here, be it about education, behavior or parenting diet etc. "I may not know too much about yours...." EXACTLY eri so why are you saying my opinion is naive??????? god damn, if i spin you right, i bet i could get you to chase your own tail. |
Clear? |
this statement should have gone without saying, but spunk appeared to be needing help. See his 1:23pm post. so no, the others in the past didnt have to say that as their opinions weren't diminished simply because they weren't parents. |
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green and fancy and worn and from the 40's and they fit |
It has occurred to me that you spend most of your time debating about issues you have "intellectual" knowledge of, but not real world experience. Raising a child, caring for them in middle of the night when they are puking all over you and the house and themselves, getting up to feed them breakfast when you just went to bed 2 hours ago, day in and day out for years on end, these things make parents. Not occasional visits, not even extended visits. Because in the end, you get to have that small voice in the back of your mind, whether you admit it or not, that says "not my kid, I am not responsible for their upbringing", which changes your entire perspective, and, in my opinion, does indeed NULLIFY your opinion on parenting, because YOU ARE NOT A PARENT. Of course, this will upset you, but fact is fact. |
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i found some used boots too a while back. they have leather straps that lace up the sides, with fancy stitching. maybe you oughtta come on down here and i'll take you 2-steppin at Roper's :) you wouldn't believe how good you can glide on used boots. |
anyone know of any good belt-buckle joints online? |
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Or is/was that you Antigone? |
Antigone. Antigone. Antigone. |
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She could make you go WOW! |
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